Microsoft strikes back
J.D. Baldwin
Hoo boy. I just saw my first one of these: MS is running ads in which
"ordinary people" (you know the type) proudly proclaim "I am a PC."
Obviously, this is intended as a counter-balance to those increasingly
hilarious Justin Long spots Apple has been running. You don't have to
care especially deeply about the whole Mac/PC/whatever thing to recognize
the stink of desperation that emanates from this campaign. Who the hell
did they focus group this thing with, Dell executives?
It even features Deepak Chopra (really) intoning a really, really fatuous
catchphrase, which was probably probably intended to sound deep.
If it weren't for the sheer Schadenfreude of the thing, I'd find it
embarrassing.
--
_+_ From the catapult of |If anyone disagrees with any statement I make, I
_|70|___:)=}- J.D. Baldwin |am quite prepared not only to retract it, but also
\ / bal...@panix.com|to deny under oath that I ever made it. -T. Lehrer
***~~~~-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter H. Coffin
> On 2008-09-19, J.D. Baldwin <INVALID...@example.com.invalid> wrote:
>> Hoo boy. I just saw my first one of these: MS is running ads in which
>> "ordinary people" (you know the type) proudly proclaim "I am a PC."
>
> wonder how much $$$ Seinfeil pocketed for that...
Reputedly, $10^7. Not bad for a week's work.
--
Christian Biblical literalists are trusting themselves to an archaic English
translation of a Latin translation of (help me here) Greek? Aramaic? source.
I wouldn't even trust a VCR manual to make it through that intact. - Dr. Dee
Peter H. Coffin
>
>
> Hoo boy. I just saw my first one of these: MS is running ads in which
> "ordinary people" (you know the type) proudly proclaim "I am a PC."
> Obviously, this is intended as a counter-balance to those increasingly
> hilarious Justin Long spots Apple has been running. You don't have to
> care especially deeply about the whole Mac/PC/whatever thing to recognize
> the stink of desperation that emanates from this campaign. Who the hell
> did they focus group this thing with, Dell executives?
The way I figure, if $company_1 is making adverts following up to or
mimicking $company_2's adverts, it's just more thought-time for
$company_2. I can't see a letterboxed advert with off-center subject and
colored bars at the top and bottom of the screen without thinking of
VOZ, regardless of what colors the bars are.
Joshua Baker-LePain
>
>
> "ordinary people" (you know the type) proudly proclaim "I am a PC."
> Obviously, this is intended as a counter-balance to those increasingly
> hilarious Justin Long spots Apple has been running. You don't have to
"Increasingly hilarious"!? Try "obnoxiously smug to the point of making me
want to punch holes in any device displaying said ad". But, then, that
pretty much describes Nccyr in general.
Working in a Mac centric environment, I have this hung over my desk
<http://gizmodo.com/photogallery/jobschops/1001179099>.
--
Joshua Baker-LePain
QB3 Shared Cluster Sysadmin
UCSF
J.D. Baldwin
In the previous article, Davide Bianchi
<davidey...@onlyforfun.net> wrote:
> > Hoo boy. I just saw my first one of these: MS is running ads in
> > which "ordinary people" (you know the type) proudly proclaim "I am a
> > PC."
>
> wonder how much $$$ Seinfeil pocketed for that...
Probably about as much as it costs Gates to stop, bend over and pick
up a nickel from the sidewalk.
I saw that ad once a few days ago, and it seems to have gone
completely away. Gates does show his mug in this new spot, though.
J.D. Baldwin
In the previous article, Joshua Baker-LePain
<jl...@begone.spam.duke.edu> wrote:
> > Hoo boy. I just saw my first one of these: MS is running ads in
> > which "ordinary people" (you know the type) proudly proclaim "I am a
> > PC." Obviously, this is intended as a counter-balance to those
> > increasingly hilarious Justin Long spots Apple has been running.
> > You don't have to
>
> "Increasingly hilarious"!? Try "obnoxiously smug to the point of
> making me want to punch holes in any device displaying said ad".
> But, then, that pretty much describes Nccyr in general.
I'm not what you'd call a strong Mac partisan -- I recommended my
daughter choose a MacBook for college, and I picked it out and
configured it for her, but I don't personally own one. I just like
seeing Vista get kicked in the nuts, and the ad with the PC-guy trying
to lead a rah-rah session for Vista completely cracked me up.
> Working in a Mac centric environment, I have this hung over my desk
> <http://gizmodo.com/photogallery/jobschops/1001179099>.
Not especially original, but amusing nevertheless.
Garrett Wollman
Peter H. Coffin <hel...@ninehells.com> wrote:
>The way I figure, if $company_1 is making adverts following up to or
>mimicking $company_2's adverts, it's just more thought-time for
>$company_2. I can't see a letterboxed advert with off-center subject and
>colored bars at the top and bottom of the screen without thinking of
>VOZ, regardless of what colors the bars are.
Some companies have amazingly idiosyncratic advertising styles. I
find that I can usually recognize a new Target ad within about five
seconds, even if I don't see the fine-print trademark notice on the
opening frames.
I'll give them credit, at least, for being easily distinguishable from
Wal*Wart ads. There is power in style.
-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are
wol...@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry
Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape
of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness
Jim
> Hoo boy. I just saw my first one of these: MS is running ads in which
> "ordinary people" (you know the type) proudly proclaim "I am a PC."
> Obviously, this is intended as a counter-balance to those increasingly
> hilarious Justin Long spots Apple has been running. You don't have to
> care especially deeply about the whole Mac/PC/whatever thing to recognize
> the stink of desperation that emanates from this campaign. Who the hell
> did they focus group this thing with, Dell executives?
Two things spring to mind. The first, regarding the new ad, is that if
you copy your competitor's advertising style _you are admitting that you
are in second place_.
The second, regarding the first set of 'ads': I'm reminded of a line
from the film of 'Fame'. The line in question is when Bruno Martelli
(young, gifted music student) is trying to impress Mr. Shorofksy (old,
gifted music teacher) with his electronic music skills, to which Mr. S
replies "That's not music, Martelli. That's masturbation."
That's not adverting, Microsoft. That's masturbation.
Jim
--
"Some balls are held for charity, and some for fancy dress. But when
they're held for pleasure they're the balls that I like best."
- AC/DC 'Big Balls'
http://www.UrsaMinorBeta.co.uk http://twitter.com/GreyAreaUK
Steve VanDevender
> Hoo boy. I just saw my first one of these: MS is running ads in which
> "ordinary people" (you know the type) proudly proclaim "I am a PC."
Not only that but the "ordinary people" aren't even doing things that
would make you think they were at all like a PC running a Microsoft
operating system. These would be more believable:
A sweating, severely overweight man is struggling to jog around a track
while well-conditioned runners continually pass him. He staggers
towards the camera, wheezing out "I'm (pant) a (gasp) PC." He falls
down and struggles weakly and unsuccessfully to get up. Paramedics
appear and use a defibrillator on him.
In a mental hospital a psychiatrist tries unsuccessfully to evoke a
response from a blankly staring female patient who we realize is
catatonic. The psychiatrist turns to the camera and says, "She's a PC."
An obviously sick man sits in front of a ventilation grille labeled "Air
Conditioning Intake" coughing, sneezing, and spitting into a
handkerchief. (At this point a "House M.D."-like animation shows virus
particles being shed from his body and sucked into the grille, flying
out of other vents and landing on people inside the building.) "I'm
(achoo!) a PC (sniff)." He vomits.
A woman sits down in front of a man dressed stereotypically like a Mafia
member. He makes a beckoning gesture, then looks at the woman silently
as she calmly pulls papers out of her shoulder bag with visible titles
of "bank account numbers" and "email passwords" and hands them to him.
She announces, "I'm a PC." The Mafia man grins wickedly as he looks
over the papers.
A man sits at a table with his eyes closed. He opens them and says,
"I'm a PC." Another man walks by and hands him an index card, which he
reads. His eyes roll back in his head and he convulses in an epileptic
fit. Cut away, then back to the same man at the same table with his
eyes closed. He opens them and says, "I'm a PC." He is handed another
index card.
A business-suited woman sits in an executive office at an expensive desk
covered with neat stacks of papers. She picks up stacks one by one and
feeds them into a paper shredder, saying "I'm a PC." Then she pulls out
an ax and starts breaking up the desk.
--
Steve VanDevender "I ride the big iron" http://hexadecimal.uoregon.edu/
ste...@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu PGP keyprint 4AD7AF61F0B9DE87 522902969C0A7EE8
Little things break, circuitry burns / Time flies while my little world turns
Every day comes, every day goes / 100 years and nobody shows -- Happy Rhodes
Steve VanDevender
> Justin Long spots Apple has been running
John Hodgman is the real talent in those commercials. He's consistently
providing the hilarity while Justin Long stands there like a lump.
Steve VanDevender
> "Increasingly hilarious"!? Try "obnoxiously smug to the point of making me
> want to punch holes in any device displaying said ad". But, then, that
> pretty much describes Nccyr in general.
Then there's this comic which rather skewers the Nccyr mentality:
http://www.absurdnotions.org/an20071030.gif
Lawns 'R' Us
> Not only that but the "ordinary people" aren't even doing things that
> would make you think they were at all like a PC running a Microsoft
> operating system. These would be more believable:
Damn you, how the hell are we supposed to get all of those into just
four lines of around 78 characters each?
Lawns 'R' Us
>
>> "Increasingly hilarious"!? Try "obnoxiously smug to the point of making me
>> want to punch holes in any device displaying said ad". But, then, that
>> pretty much describes Nccyr in general.
>
> Then there's this comic which rather skewers the Nccyr mentality:
>
> http://www.absurdnotions.org/an20071030.gif
I find myself wondering, as a counterpoint: how many users actually
*do* upgrade their memory/hard drive/video card? I'll wager good money
that the answer is "not many" on a percentage basis - that the
majority just buy a new system when the old one no longer fits their
needs. I don't disagree with the assessment, just wondering how
relevant it is if people don't take advantage of that ability.
However, in the interest of honesty, I will say that I burst into
uncontrollable laughter when I first saw that comic.
jpd
j00toob urls?
--
j p d (at) d s b (dot) t u d e l f t (dot) n l .
Jim
> > Justin Long spots Apple has been running
>
> John Hodgman is the real talent in those commercials. He's consistently
> providing the hilarity while Justin Long stands there like a lump.
John Hodgman actually credits Justin. Mind you, he's a pretty modest
guy.
David Gersic
> INVALID...@example.com.invalid (J.D. Baldwin) writes:
> A sweating, severely overweight man is struggling to jog around a track
> while well-conditioned runners continually pass him. He staggers
> towards the camera, wheezing out "I'm (pant) a (gasp) PC." He falls
> down and struggles weakly and unsuccessfully to get up. Paramedics
> appear and use a defibrillator on him.
... Then he gets up and staggers / jogs off again.
J.D. Baldwin
In the previous article, Steve VanDevender
<ste...@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu> wrote, quoting me:
> > Justin Long spots Apple has been running
>
> John Hodgman is the real talent in those commercials. He's consistently
> providing the hilarity while Justin Long stands there like a lump.
I don't disagree. I just didn't know his name.
Peter Corlett
> I find myself wondering, as a counterpoint: how many users actually *do*
> upgrade their memory/hard drive/video card? I'll wager good money that the
> answer is "not many" on a percentage basis - that the majority just buy a
> new system when the old one no longer fits their needs.
I usually find that whenever I'm starting to think that one component of my
PC breaks or is otherwise in need of replacement, the capricious PC market
has changed some important bus or other and I can't get hold of anything
suitable. So forklift upgrades are inevitable.
For a given class of hardware, neither PC nor Mac are any more or less
upgradable than the other. Good luck upgrading the grapics card on a Dull
craptop.
J.D. Baldwin
> > titles of "bank account numbers" and "email passwords" and hands
> > them to him. She announces, "I'm a PC."
>
> machine,
But it happens, a lot.
> the guvment is doing all they can to lose those same data every
> day. Just pick up the DVD that the guy left in the taxi, you'll have
> more than you asked for.
Sure, that's possible, but it requires a serendipitious event combined
with a malicious actor. I can promise you your scenario is several
orders of magnitude less common than the keystroke logger one.
Peter Corlett
> On 2008-09-20, Peter Corlett <ab...@cabal.org.uk> wrote:
>> Good luck upgrading the grapics card on a Dull craptop.
> laptop. No matter which brand.
The hard disk was also easy enough to upgrade on my MBP, although it did
involve more disassembly than some might like. A compartmentalised tray for
keeping all those screws in order is strongly recommended.
Peter H. Coffin
> I find myself wondering, as a counterpoint: how many users actually
> *do* upgrade their memory/hard drive/video card? I'll wager good money
> that the answer is "not many" on a percentage basis - that the
> majority just buy a new system when the old one no longer fits their
> needs. I don't disagree with the assessment, just wondering how
> relevant it is if people don't take advantage of that ability.
We'll, it's a comic by someone with enough "digirati" cred to have a
webcomic with some following...
I did kind of keep track of that kind of upgrades people were doing from
about 2003 to 2005. It was about of the PEOPLE that upgraded, 80% did
whole box at least. and about 20% did piecemeal/parts inside the case.
--
48. I will treat any beast which I control through magic or technology with
respect and kindness. Thus if the control is ever broken, it will not
immediately come after me for revenge.
--Peter Anspach's list of things to do as an Evil Overlord
Peter H. Coffin
Housemate has wondered aloud why I have a stack of empty egg cartons on
my workbench in the basement. I asked why her mother paid for a button
box. The moment of enlightenment was precious.
--
"The bullets are just his way of saying 'Keep it down, I've got a
hangover.'"
Kiki to Dr. Schlock, as seen in http://pics.sluggy.com/comics/000108a.gif
Jed Davis
> Working in a Mac centric environment, I have this hung over my desk
> <http://gizmodo.com/photogallery/jobschops/1001179099>.
Oh, come now. If one is going to photomanipulate, one might as well
go for broke:
uggc://jjj.kyreo.arg/zvfp/tbq-unq-abguvat-gb-qb-jvgu-guvf/rznpf.wcrt
Produced on the occasion of an especially interesting security advisory.
--
(let ((C call-with-current-continuation)) (apply (lambda (x y) (x y)) (map
((lambda (r) ((C C) (lambda (s) (r (lambda l (apply (s s) l)))))) (lambda
(f) (lambda (l) (if (null? l) C (lambda (k) (display (car l)) ((f (cdr l))
(C k))))))) '((#\J #\d #\D #\v #\s) (#\e #\space #\a #\i #\newline)))))
Steve VanDevender
> An obviously sick man sits in front of a ventilation grille labeled "Air
> Conditioning Intake" coughing, sneezing, and spitting into a
> handkerchief.
I thought of a better version of this one.
Overhead shot of a large crowd. Cut to closeup of one man who starts
sneezing. Instead of covering his sneezes, he grabs people nearby and
sneezes into their faces. Each also starts sneezing, grabbing their
neighbors and sneezing into their faces. Cut back to overhead shot
showing a wave of sneezing spreading out through the crowd. Suddenly,
everyone in the crowd looks up at the camera as one and shouts together
"We're PCs!"
TimC
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> Working in a Mac centric environment, I have this hung over my desk
> <http://gizmodo.com/photogallery/jobschops/1001179099>.
Why does he look like the stereotypical evil overlord?
--
TimC
"We live in the interface between radioactive molten rock and hard vacuum and
we worry about safety." -- Chris Hunt
SteveD
<ste...@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu> wrote:
>Overhead shot of a large crowd. Cut to closeup of one man who starts
>sneezing. Instead of covering his sneezes, he grabs people nearby and
>sneezes into their faces. Each also starts sneezing, grabbing their
>neighbors and sneezing into their faces. Cut back to overhead shot
>showing a wave of sneezing spreading out through the crowd. Suddenly,
>everyone in the crowd looks up at the camera as one and shouts together
>"We're PCs!"
Sounds more like an ad for an antivirus product. One guy in the stands is
completely unaffected by the sneezing. Everyone else dies, zoom in to the
one dude, who shrugs to camera and goes on with whatever he was doing. Cut
to splash screen of product. Optional voiceover.
-SteveD
Steve VanDevender
alt.sysadmin.nicey-nicey is -> that way. Maybe an antivirus software
vendor would want to portray their osftware like that, but we know what
would really happen.
Incorporating a metaphor for antivirus into that scene could be done by
having some noticeable fraction of the people in that scene wearing
torn, ragged hazmat suits. Anyone attempting to sneeze on someone
wearing a hazmat suit would make sure to sneeze into one of the holes in
the suit. It would otherwise play out exactly the same way.
Dave Hughes
> Well... I did just upgrade my MacBook from an 80GB 5400RPM drive to a
> 200GB 7200RPM one. It was rather painless, once I got a Torx T8 driver.
Grrr. It wasn't particularly painful on my iBook, but it was a much
longer [1] process than on the various Dull laptops I've done drive swaps
on.
Now the Luxo Imac, there's a PITA to do a drive swap on.
[1] As in stripping down to much more than you normally want to see of a
laptop's innards.
--
Dave Hughes - da...@hired-goons.net
"The opposite of a correct statement is a false
statement. The opposite of a profound truth may
well be another profound truth." - Niels Bohr
Steve VanDevender
> That's not adverting, Microsoft. That's masturbation.
If they had kept running the awful ads with Jerry Seinfeld and Bill
Gates, maybe they could have worked in a bit where both Bill and Jerry
proclaim themselves "master of my domain." Or maybe "controller of my
domain."
Steve VanDevender
> On 19 Sep 2008 18:41:08 GMT, Davide Bianchi wrote:
>> On 2008-09-19, J.D. Baldwin <INVALID...@example.com.invalid> wrote:
>>> Hoo boy. I just saw my first one of these: MS is running ads in which
>>> "ordinary people" (you know the type) proudly proclaim "I am a PC."
>>
>> You mean they already dumped the whole Seinfeild/Gates thing? Wow, I
>> wonder how much $$$ Seinfeil pocketed for that...
>
> Reputedly, $10^7. Not bad for a week's work.
I wish I could remember the citation, but I saw a reference to someone
else's rant about how Jerry Seinfeld was a perfect metaphor for
Microsoft: ubiquitous and popular in the 90s, but now basically
irrelevant. And, apparently, you pay a lot but don't see much work
get done.
SteveD
<ste...@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu> wrote:
>SteveD <use...@vo.id.au> writes:
>
>> On Sat, 20 Sep 2008 17:28:53 -0700, Steve VanDevender
>> <ste...@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu> wrote:
>>
>>>Overhead shot of a large crowd. Cut to closeup of one man who starts
>>>sneezing. Instead of covering his sneezes, he grabs people nearby and
>>>sneezes into their faces. Each also starts sneezing, grabbing their
>>>neighbors and sneezing into their faces. Cut back to overhead shot
>>>showing a wave of sneezing spreading out through the crowd. Suddenly,
>>>everyone in the crowd looks up at the camera as one and shouts together
>>>"We're PCs!"
>>
>> Sounds more like an ad for an antivirus product. One guy in the stands is
>> completely unaffected by the sneezing. Everyone else dies, zoom in to the
>> one dude, who shrugs to camera and goes on with whatever he was doing. Cut
>> to splash screen of product. Optional voiceover.
>
>alt.sysadmin.nicey-nicey is -> that way. Maybe an antivirus software
>vendor would want to portray their osftware like that, but we know what
>would really happen.
>
>Incorporating a metaphor for antivirus into that scene could be done by
>having some noticeable fraction of the people in that scene wearing
>torn, ragged hazmat suits. Anyone attempting to sneeze on someone
>wearing a hazmat suit would make sure to sneeze into one of the holes in
>the suit. It would otherwise play out exactly the same way.
Nah, the antivirus'd guy tries to leave and is eaten by zombies.
-SteveD
Nomen Publicus
> On 2008-09-21, Steve VanDevender <ste...@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu> wrote:
>> Microsoft: ubiquitous and popular in the 90s, but now basically
>> irrelevant.
>
> market?
If there is nothing exciting happening. Apple may just repackage other
peoples ideas, but they do a good job and know the value of fashion.
Why didn't the Zune appear first? Why didn't Microsoft recognise the market
place that could have been theirs from day one?
The mp3 player market is currently Apples to lose, MS cannot do anything to
take it over no matter how good the Zune and associated services may
become.
--
As an atheist I don't accept the god theory.
Matt Palmer
>> irrelevant.
>
> market?
An interesting take on that topic, from Paul Graham:
http://www.paulgraham.com/microsoft.html
Basically, if you're not setting the trends and driving the direction of the
industry you're in, you're irrelevant.
- Matt
TimC
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
>> On 2008-09-21, Steve VanDevender <ste...@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu> wrote:
>>> Microsoft: ubiquitous and popular in the 90s, but now basically
>>> irrelevant.
>>
>> How can you consider "irrelevant" someone that own 95% of the desktop OS
>> market?
>
> An interesting take on that topic, from Paul Graham:
>
> http://www.paulgraham.com/microsoft.html
"everyone can see the desktop is over. It now seems inevitable that
applications will live on the web"
Oh? There's another take on that:
http://teddziuba.com/2008/09/a-web-os-are-you-dense.html
OTOH, "One of the reasons "Web 2.0" has such an air of euphoria about
it is the feeling, conscious or not, that this era of monopoly may
finally be over."
Maybe I finally now understand web 2.0. The people who like it are
the people who think Windows still matters.
--
TimC
Beware of Programmers who carry screwdrivers.
Peter H. Coffin
Oh, they're doing that. However, they MAY AS WELL BE irrelevant, because
there's little choice involved in the matter. A corresponding kind of
choice would be between manual and automatic transmission. Auto
manufacturers *claim* that North Americans prefer automatic
transmission but it's difficult to tell what people prefer when the
choice is made for them. About one passenger vehicle in ten is made with
a manual transmission here, and most models of vehicle aren't available
with a manual transmission.
--
43. I will maintain a healthy amount of skepticism when I capture the beautiful
rebel and she claims she is attracted to my power and good looks and will
gladly betray her companions if I just let her in on my plans.
Matt Palmer
> On 2008-09-22, Matt Palmer (aka Bruce)
> was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
>> Davide Bianchi is of the opinion:
>>> On 2008-09-21, Steve VanDevender <ste...@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu> wrote:
>>>> Microsoft: ubiquitous and popular in the 90s, but now basically
>>>> irrelevant.
>>>
>>> How can you consider "irrelevant" someone that own 95% of the desktop OS
>>> market?
>>
>> An interesting take on that topic, from Paul Graham:
>>
>> http://www.paulgraham.com/microsoft.html
>
> "everyone can see the desktop is over. It now seems inevitable that
> applications will live on the web"
Yeah, sorry, I forgot to warn everyone to put on their "I started a
successful company, therefore I know everything" filter specs. <grin>
- Matt
Jim
> I thought of a better version of this one.
>
> Overhead shot of a large crowd. Cut to closeup of one man who starts
> sneezing. Instead of covering his sneezes, he grabs people nearby and
> sneezes into their faces. Each also starts sneezing, grabbing their
> neighbors and sneezing into their faces. Cut back to overhead shot
> showing a wave of sneezing spreading out through the crowd. Suddenly,
> everyone in the crowd looks up at the camera as one and shouts together
> "We're PCs!"
You also need to have a lot of them given Rohypnol without their
knowning, or given post-hypnotic suggestions to Do Stuff For Russian
Botnet Herders. Maybe writing out lots of junk mail and posting it in an
obvious hypnotic haze, before getting on with their life with no
knowledge of what they've just done.
Jim
--
"Disgusting. Inedible. Sweeter than pure sugar. The doughnut equivalent
of Comic Sans." - Peter Ceresole in ucsm, about Krispy Kreme doughnuts.
http://www.UrsaMinorBeta.co.uk http://twitter.com/greyareauk
SteveD
<hel...@ninehells.com> wrote:
>Oh, they're doing that. However, they MAY AS WELL BE irrelevant, because
>there's little choice involved in the matter. A corresponding kind of
>choice would be between manual and automatic transmission. Auto
>manufacturers *claim* that North Americans prefer automatic
>transmission but it's difficult to tell what people prefer when the
>choice is made for them. About one passenger vehicle in ten is made with
>a manual transmission here, and most models of vehicle aren't available
>with a manual transmission.
Locally, auto seems to be mainly confined to family barges. Automatics
have a reputation for being idiosyncratic and expensive, with human
control over the gears producing more accurate and responsive results.
-SteveD
Robert Sneddon
<use...@vo.id.au> writes
>Locally, auto seems to be mainly confined to family barges. Automatics
>have a reputation for being idiosyncratic and expensive, with human
>control over the gears producing more accurate and responsive results.
I'm helping a learner driver get some road practice before her test
(which is coincidentally due the same day a couple of US politicians are
going to face another kind of test). Human control over the gears in
this case involves a lot of crunching noises and shaved metal plus
kangaroo-hops out into passing traffic and stall-outs on hills.
--
To reply, my gmail address is nojay1 Robert Sneddon
Robert Sneddon
West <roger+a...@nospam.firedrake.org> writes
>SteveD wrote:
>
>>Locally, auto seems to be mainly confined to family barges. Automatics
>>have a reputation for being idiosyncratic and expensive
>
The crap cars I tended to drive usually ended up running rough,
requiring me to adjust the throttle cable to raise the idle speed and
prevent them quitting on me at traffic lights and such. An automatic
gearbox would not work too well in this case.
Mike Andrews
Matt Palmer <mj...@hezmatt.org> wrote in
<slrngdgjfi...@news.hezmatt.org>:
"Kids! Leave home, start your companies, and take over the world! Do
it *NOW*, while you're still 15 and know *EVERYTHING*!!!!"
--
[Lotus Notes] is death by a thousand tiny annoyances--the digital
equivalent of being kicked in the groin upon arrival at work every
day.
-- Jeff Atwater
jpd
Mike Andrews <mi...@mikea.ath.cx> wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 02:01:20 +0000 (UTC),
> Matt Palmer <mj...@hezmatt.org> wrote in
> <slrngdgjfi...@news.hezmatt.org>:
>> Yeah, sorry, I forgot to warn everyone to put on their "I started a
>> successful company, therefore I know everything" filter specs. <grin>
>
> "Kids! Leave home, start your companies, and take over the world! Do
> it *NOW*, while you're still 15 and know *EVERYTHING*!!!!"
``You too can easily keep on knowing everything for your entire life!''
--
j p d (at) d s b (dot) t u d e l f t (dot) n l .
John F. Eldredge
I think that all of us who have experience driving with manual
transmissions have embarrassing (if not painful) memories of the learning
experience. Starting moving on an uphill slope, without stalling the
engine, is what took me the longest to master.
--
John F. Eldredge -- jo...@jfeldredge.com
PGP key available from http://pgp.mit.edu
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better
than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria
Robert Sneddon
<jo...@jfeldredge.com> writes
>On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 10:40:22 +0100, Robert Sneddon wrote:
>
>> I'm helping a learner driver get some road practice before her test
> Starting moving on an uphill slope, without stalling the
>engine, is what took me the longest to master.
In the UK, a hill start is a required part of the driving test. Rolling
back even fractionally is an automatic (so to speak) fail.
Matt Palmer
> In message <6js5hoF...@mid.individual.net>, John F. Eldredge
><jo...@jfeldredge.com> writes
>>On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 10:40:22 +0100, Robert Sneddon wrote:
>>
>>> I'm helping a learner driver get some road practice before her test
>
>> Starting moving on an uphill slope, without stalling the
>>engine, is what took me the longest to master.
>
> In the UK, a hill start is a required part of the driving test. Rolling
> back even fractionally is an automatic (so to speak) fail.
Nice. Last I heard, here in .nsw.au, you need to do a hill start (although
the "hill" I did mine on needed a spirit level to work out which way was
"down"), but you've got a certain amount of leeway in a manual, and no
leeway in an automatic. Which makes a certain amount of sense -- a few
centimetres rollback in a manual just means "I didn't quite pick the
friction point right", while a few centimetres in an auto means "I put it in
N, not D". Big difference in degree of whoopsiness...
- Matt
Peter H. Coffin
> SteveD wrote:
>
>>Locally, auto seems to be mainly confined to family barges. Automatics
>>have a reputation for being idiosyncratic and expensive, with human
>>control over the gears producing more accurate and responsive results.
>
> of buying and cost of fixing, and back in the day it meant significantly
> higher fuel consumption. No idea whether that's still true.
It doesn't seem to be as much true as it used to be. I did do some
thorough digging about availibity of manual vs automatic before
asserting one has a tough time buying a manual in the US.[1] Part of that
shoved a lot of milage estimates in front of me. Tiny cars (usually
rebadged Korean ones) had the biggest discrepancy between auto and
manual, up to 38 vs 33 on highway estimates, and 28 vs 25 for city
driving. Truck and sportscar[2] estimates were the same betweem manual and
automatic, or off by one or two MPG at most. I'm unsure, but I suspect
that the more-expensive automatic transmissions are fantastically better
than prior counterparts, and the cheap automatics just haven't picked up
the enginerring improvements as fast.
[1] Typically, between 1/4 and 1/3 of car models from American firms
have a manual transmission available AT ALL. Typically, they're on the
bottom subcompact cars, the smallest pickup truck, and whatever pass for
performance cars in the model lineups. Generally, if you can think of
putting four adults in the model in comfort, you can't get a manual
transmission on that model.
[2] Corvette automatics tend to be very odd (such as skipping from 1st
to 4th if not being drivien hard) or wierd mixes of manual and
automatic.
--
38. If an enemy I have just killed has a younger sibling or offspring
anywhere, I will find them and have them killed immediately, instead of
waiting for them to grow up harboring feelings of vengeance towards me in
my old age. --Peter Anspach's list of things to do as an Evil Overlord
TimC
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> transmissions have embarrassing (if not painful) memories of the learning
> experience.
No?
> Starting moving on an uphill slope, without stalling the
> engine, is what took me the longest to master.
Easy. But then again, mum was somewhat surprised when, at age 10, I
was able to back the tractor through a 90 degree turn into the
tractor-width lanes in an orchard, with a trailer half-full of oranges
hooked on the back. 'Course, I had a tractor-trailer in my lego set,
didn't I?
I learnt to drive the car in 1st before my older brother (by 3 years,
living across the country with our dad) did his first kangaroo hops up
the side of our levi-bank towards the creek. He was on his learners
plates for about 3 years before bothering to apply for the license
upgrade. Me, I had an incentive to get it as soon as legally
possible. The laws changed to mandate a 3 year probationary period
several days after I turned 16.5, IIRC.
I had such little trouble in adapting to the road that I still have
mental difficulties in understanding the nervous learners I see coming
out of RTA's building.
The other oddity about my driving is that in my current job, I drive
an automatic, and likewise, when I borrow a car from mum, it is an
automatic (the advertisement for the second hand car said "manual",
but she liked it enough anyway that she went through with the
purchase). She has great difficulty in remembering about the clutch
when driving her company car, but when I drive it, I have no troubles
even after not having driven a manual for 5 years (then again, my
brain surprised me the other day when we finally moved over to the new
telescope control system, and my brain thought that because it was in
a telescope control context, I must be at a Type 4 keyboard).
--
TimC
"Consider a spherical bear, in simple harmonic motion..."
-- Professor in the UCB physics department
TimC
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> the "hill" I did mine on needed a spirit level to work out which way was
> "down"),
Likewise. The nearest hills to here are the mountains 20 km away. I
was shown how to hillstart up the observatory hill and towards the
local runway up on a plateu way up there ↝. Then the testers came
along and wanted me to start up something that doesn't even cause my
to get out of my saddle when I ride up.
> but you've got a certain amount of leeway in a manual, and no
> leeway in an automatic. Which makes a certain amount of sense -- a few
> centimetres rollback in a manual just means "I didn't quite pick the
> friction point right", while a few centimetres in an auto means "I put it in
> N, not D". Big difference in degree of whoopsiness...
Or that the hill was steep enough and you were slow enough and or the
engine revs were quite low compared to the coefficient of
stickiness[1] of the torque converter.
[1] Much tankage of glycogen/glycerol (er, green stuff) leaked out of
the dome air conditioning system and flooded the floor and seeped into
flouro fixtures on the floor below (ie, the office floor) today. Much
stickiness is on my mind. And in my hair.
--
TimC
It typically takes 25-30 gallons of petrol/diesel to fully-consume an
average-sized body under ideal conditions. That I am conversant with
this level of detail should serve as an indication of why the wise man
does not ask me questions about MS-Windows. --Tanuki on ASR
J.D. Baldwin
In the previous article, John F. Eldredge <jo...@jfeldredge.com>
wrote:
> I think that all of us who have experience driving with manual
> transmissions have embarrassing (if not painful) memories of the
> learning experience. Starting moving on an uphill slope, without
> stalling the engine, is what took me the longest to master.
Fortunately, I learned to drive in Minnesota, where there *are* no
uphill slopes. By the time I moved to Seattle, 15+ years later, I was
comfortable enough with the stick that the hills weren't an issue.
--
_+_ From the catapult of |If anyone objects to any statement I make, I am
_|70|___:)=}- J.D. Baldwin |quite prepared not only to retract it, but also
\ / bal...@panix.com|to deny under oath that I ever made it.-T. Lehrer
***~~~~----------------------------------------------------------------------
Tai
> I think that all of us who have experience driving with manual
> transmissions have embarrassing (if not painful) memories of the learning
> experience. Starting moving on an uphill slope, without stalling the
> engine, is what took me the longest to master.
Really? Took me a couple of tries, and that was it. Don't even
remember if I stalled.
-Tai "must have"
--
http://www.vcnet.com/bms/features/serendipities.html
http://www.kenthamilton.net/humor/humor.html
http://www.despair.com/demotivators/cluelessness.html
"What we have done with PCs so far is not natural" - Craig Mundie, CTO Microsoft
David Gersic
> SteveD wrote:
>
>>Locally, auto seems to be mainly confined to family barges. Automatics
>>have a reputation for being idiosyncratic and expensive, with human
>>control over the gears producing more accurate and responsive results.
>
> of buying and cost of fixing, and back in the day it meant significantly
> higher fuel consumption. No idea whether that's still true.
On a modern "lockup" style automatic, fuel consumption should be about the
same. With some automatics now having overdrive top gears, it could even
be better, depending on the exact models being compared.
David Gersic
> The crap cars I tended to drive usually ended up running rough,
> requiring me to adjust the throttle cable to raise the idle speed and
> prevent them quitting on me at traffic lights and such. An automatic
> gearbox would not work too well in this case.
Huh? As long as your idle speed is less than the stall speed of the torque
convertor, it should work fine.
David Gersic
> It doesn't seem to be as much true as it used to be. I did do some
> thorough digging about availibity of manual vs automatic before
> asserting one has a tough time buying a manual in the US.
For most intents and purposes, manual transmissions are a special order
item. The dealers rarely have anything available on the lot, unless
you're looking at "performance" cars (Corvette, Viper, Mustang), and
probably not even those since the high price customer is not likely
to want to actualy have to shift the transmission.
The other exception is the "loss leader". You may find a dealer advertising
for something like a Dodge Dakota for some too-low-to-be-true price.
When you get there, what you find is a regular cab, manual trans, short
bed, white paint, AM radio, and vinyl seats. Then they up-sell in
to one of their standard "package" trucks where you get the decent
radio + cd player, the cloth seats, and auto trans. To get the cloth
seats and the manual trans, you have to special order it, which removes
the special "package" pricing and you pay *extra* to get the manual
trans.
> shoved a lot of milage estimates in front of me. Tiny cars (usually
> rebadged Korean ones) had the biggest discrepancy between auto and
> manual, up to 38 vs 33 on highway estimates, and 28 vs 25 for city
> driving. Truck and sportscar[2] estimates were the same betweem manual and
> automatic, or off by one or two MPG at most. I'm unsure, but I suspect
> that the more-expensive automatic transmissions are fantastically better
> than prior counterparts, and the cheap automatics just haven't picked up
> the enginerring improvements as fast.
The idea is simple, so I can't see any really good reason why the cheap
ones aren't doing it. The lockup torque convertor isn't a new idea any
more.
> [2] Corvette automatics tend to be very odd (such as skipping from 1st
> to 4th if not being drivien hard) or wierd mixes of manual and
> automatic.
I believe the Corvette's special shifting helps with it's otherwise abysmal
fuel milage rating, and earns GM a few points on the CAFE score that would
otherwise have been lost.
SteveD
I'll readily admit that I learned better by first taking an automatic out
for a spin. One less thing to keep tabs on while getting used to being in
control of a ton of metal.
Once I had three-point turns and parallel parking down, though, I switched
over to a manual and never looked back.
I've driven recent-model automatics, and they still seem to have that
irritating delay between stepping on the accelerator and anything useful
happening. When I'm overtaking on country roads or freeways at 110km/h,
that gap can make the difference between a smooth, successful maneuvre and
temporarily playing chicken with a freightliner coming the other way.
-SteveD
Mike Andrews
Jamie <sbw...@caughtsomewhereintime.org> wrote in
<87r67ay...@caughtsomewhereintime.org>:
> Roger Burton West <roger+a...@nospam.firedrake.org> writes:
>> Jamie wrote:
>> >INVALID...@example.com.invalid (J.D. Baldwin) writes:
>> >> Fortunately, I learned to drive in Minnesota, where there *are* no
>> >> uphill slopes.
>> >Only downhill ones?
>>
>> Ah, it's the opposite of cycling in Bristol, then.
> It is a constant of life that everyone moans about cycling up
> hills, wherever they live - even in Cambridgeshire[1].
> I go down to work and up in the evening in Bristol - adrenaline going
> to work, endorphins coming home. Suits me quite well, and at least it
> forces me to do some exercise on a regular basis.
> Still, glad I'm no longer doing the extra 2 miles from Temple Meads to
> Brislington - that bit of the A4 is a bitch.
> [1] Really. That one by the cement works, near Barrington.
I missed one experience on each of my trips to England: bicycling. I
can just hear the poor folks in and near Salisbury complaining now:
"Dear Ghod! Nothing but barrows and mounds! It's enough to put a man
off his feed!" Looked mighty flat to me, though nowhere near as much
so as, say, the Texas coastal plain. I suspect that even the Danes
complain about the "hills" in Denmark, and the Netherlanders about the
"hills" there, too.
Onward, uphill both ways in the snow, through the fog!
--
> "Abendessen" ("evening meal")
ITYM "meal eaten whilst trying to figure out why the damn program keeps
crashing"
-- Kai Henningsen and Cael in asr
Jed Davis
> Locally, auto seems to be mainly confined to family barges. Automatics
> have a reputation for being idiosyncratic and expensive, with human
> control over the gears producing more accurate and responsive results.
My own impression has been that, in this day and age, using a manual
transmission is much like writing assembly by hand: most people should
not do it, because they will do it wrong, and anyone unfortunate
enough to be subjected to their handiwork is at risk of being made
physically ill.
My sample may be biased.
--
.text
.ascii "h<8[X]hO2:>TXhxY-1T[hv]?xTY1(1+1)jOT_^j1!7[j4!7XjE17ZRQSSSPX]"
.long -85229363
Robert Sneddon
<sbw...@caughtsomewhereintime.org> writes
>It is a constant of life that everyone moans about cycling up
>hills, wherever they live - even in Cambridgeshire[1].
There's the Mill Road hump-back bridge in the middle of Cambridge
itself. I used to see a lot of novelty-condom cyclist-types on 1500 quid
wheeled razorblades dismount and walk their ubermachines over that
particular terrifying Class 6 TdF mountain section.
jpd
On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 01:52:48 +0800, SteveD <use...@vo.id.au> wrote:
> I've driven recent-model automatics, and they still seem to have that
> irritating delay between stepping on the accelerator and anything useful
> happening. When I'm overtaking on country roads or freeways at 110km/h,
> that gap can make the difference between a smooth, successful maneuvre and
> temporarily playing chicken with a freightliner coming the other way.
And then you find that the build-in black box has listened to its
built-in gps, compared the location with its built-in map, and concludes
that it is much safer to drop the power so as to keep you safely under
the posted speed limit.
Maybe the newer, more expensive, fancier models will have a feature
where they'll let you go over momentarily but they'll phone the speeding
fines department and arrange a suitable ticket. Activated with a popup
to input your credit card number.
But at least that popup will have been designed by the world's
second-most renowned interface designer.
Peter H. Coffin
Seems to be working. I'm seeing Corvette owners claiming high 20s on
longer trips with C6s. I'm surprised that longer trips are comfortable
enough, but... Eventually the same tricks will end up pushing the whole
fleet's MPGs up.
--
The light at the end of the tunnel is not an oncoming train.
It is muzzle-flash.
Peter H. Coffin
> When I'm overtaking on country roads or freeways at 110km/h, that gap
> can make the difference between a smooth, successful maneuvre and
> temporarily playing chicken with a freightliner coming the other way.
Uhm... If it's common enough a problem that the lag is a class-flaw, a
driver should be accounting for it when estimating overtaking safety. If
it's unexpected, then it's not common to the class, is it?
The only other option is that you tend to forget what kind of vehicle
you're driving. And I don't think you're that dumb.
--
5. The artifact which is the source of my power will not be kept on the
Mountain of Despair beyond the River of Fire guarded by the Dragons of
Eternity. It will be in my safe-deposit box. The same applies to the
object which is my one weakness. --Peter Anspach "Evil Overlord"
Brian Kantor
>while a few centimetres in an auto means "I put it in
>N, not D".
And don't forget, boys and girls, to go faster you have
to move the lever from 'D'rive to 'R'ace.
- Brian
David Taylor
>
> I've driven recent-model automatics, and they still seem to have that
> irritating delay between stepping on the accelerator and anything useful
> happening. When I'm overtaking on country roads or freeways at 110km/h,
> that gap can make the difference between a smooth, successful maneuvre and
> temporarily playing chicken with a freightliner coming the other way.
I'm not sure a manual transmission will help in situations where you
end up laying chicken with a freightliner coming the other way on
a freeeway.
--
David Taylor
David Taylor
>
> Maybe the newer, more expensive, fancier models will have a feature
> where they'll let you go over momentarily but they'll phone the speeding
> fines department and arrange a suitable ticket. Activated with a popup
> to input your credit card number.
>
> But at least that popup will have been designed by the world's
> second-most renowned interface designer.
Meaning it will malfunction and not allow you to enter your credit card
number, causing you to be jailed for failure to pay the fixed penalty.
In the unlikely event that it works correctly, you will be jailed for
operating a computer whilst driving.
Meanwhile, a "World Justice Council" will have replaced the courts and
will consider such penalties to be unappealable.
--
David Taylor
Jim
> Humf. This all reminds me I must get round to installing the overdrive in
> the Landy so I will have 3 levers to use to select which one of the 16
> forward or 4 reverse gears I want.
>
> Then it'll be like writing assembly by hand, yes.
Although, generally when you forget to POP in assembly you don't end up
stranded half-way down Ben Bleak in a snow storm.
Well, not unless you have a serious head-case of a PHB.
Jim
--
"Disgusting. Inedible. Sweeter than pure sugar. The doughnut equivalent
of Comic Sans." - Peter Ceresole in ucsm, about Krispy Kreme doughnuts.
http://www.UrsaMinorBeta.co.uk http://twitter.com/greyareauk
jpd
David Taylor <david...@yadt.co.uk> wrote:
> On 2008-09-23, jpd <read_t...@do.not.spam.it.invalid> wrote:
>> But at least that popup will have been designed by the world's
>> second-most renowned interface designer.
>
> Meaning it will malfunction and not allow you to enter your credit card
> number, causing you to be jailed for failure to pay the fixed penalty.
> In the unlikely event that it works correctly, you will be jailed for
> operating a computer whilst driving.
Jailed? How quaint. Instead we'll have A Law that pre-approves road-
trains to not try and evade and to not stop at accidents caused by
playing chicken, instead subsidizing installing giant wipers to purge
the remains. Saves lots on jailing, thus thus having to for and feed
deadbeats that can't even pay their fines.
> Meanwhile, a "World Justice Council" will have replaced the courts and
> will consider such penalties to be unappealable.
Due to ``cost savings''. Because the Council gave the contract to
run the World Justice System to Justice Solutions llc, who promptly
outsourced and offshored it to ShariaCo in Pakistan. Which in turn is an
umbrella to a conglomerate of small-time operators spread through the
remains of what was once called the middle east.
``We can do 400 judgements/hour! Only $14 / 1000!''
LP
> I go down to work and up in the evening in Bristol - adrenaline going
> to work, endorphins coming home. Suits me quite well, and at least it
> forces me to do some exercise on a regular basis.
On the odd occasion that I can be bothered to get the rust bucket out
and cycle to work, Bristol is flat until I get into town, then I've
got a choice of Jacobs Wells Road, or some of the more "interesting"
hills in Clifton. Not mountainous by any means, but painful enough
for me. It's not the quickest route, but it is the flattest and I'm
a lazy sod.
Talking of which, the Severn Beach Line costs me a mere £6 a week,
and is currently being unusually reliable - so I don't have much
incentive to get the bike out.
> Still, glad I'm no longer doing the extra 2 miles from Temple Meads to
> Brislington - that bit of the A4 is a bitch.
I've not done that stretch of road on a pushbike, but there's a very
good reason for that.
-Paul
--
paulseward.com - a photo a day for 2008
100jugglers.org - 100 pieces of signed juggling promotional material
Peter Corlett
[...]
> Talking of which, the Severn Beach Line costs me a mere £6 a week,
> and is currently being unusually reliable - so I don't have much incentive
> to get the bike out.
That's surprisingly cheap for public transport out in the provinces. Are you
sure it isn't the daily fare? :)
Biking to work saves me two quid each way on the Tube. Unfortunately the
usual bike route passes a butty van who has a fine selection of fried stuff
innabun, making a major dent in both the financial and health benefits of
cycling.
(And since I'm recovering in a few days, I soon won't even have that
motivation to get the bike out.)
David Taylor
> Gary Barnes <g...@adminspotting.org> wrote:
>
>> Humf. This all reminds me I must get round to installing the overdrive in
>> the Landy so I will have 3 levers to use to select which one of the 16
>> forward or 4 reverse gears I want.
>>
>> Then it'll be like writing assembly by hand, yes.
>
> Although, generally when you forget to POP in assembly you don't end up
> stranded half-way down Ben Bleak in a snow storm.
>
> Well, not unless you have a serious head-case of a PHB.
Or you're hand-crafting firmware for an auto box...
--
David Taylor
Graham Reed
> The idea is simple, so I can't see any really good reason why the cheap
> ones aren't doing it. The lockup torque convertor isn't a new idea any
> more.
The cheap ones _are_ doing it. It's just that inefficiencies in the
bigger motors mean that the transmission differences are less
loticable.
20 years ago, you'd be nuts do buy a little 4-banger with an auto.
You'd need a manual, and a willingness to thrash the thing up to
red-line to get any kind of performance out of it. Dropping from 5th
to 3rd to overtake, then back to 5th when you were done, being the
rule of the day. (Well, the Subaru GL-10 was extra gutless for its
era....)
Nowadays (like, mid- to late-90s), that same kind of car has an
automatic that may not be brilliant, but is certainly more than
sufficient for a daily driver.
Heck, my mom and I were both surprised at how well the '98 Subaru
Impreza automatic. We're both used to land barge-type automatics,
where you press the pedal, there's a lot of noise, and gradually the
car started moving. Try that in the '98 Impreza and you're in the
next block before you realize it.
I bought the manual anyway 'cause I'm a cheap bastard and I like
driving manual. She bought the manual Saturn 'cause a friend of mine
had one that he abused the snot out of and it sill worked, and she had
one of those credit cards that gets you money off a GM car--and that
was the only GM she could tolerate.
So, yes, the little cars, have much better autos than before. For
many drivers, I would think that the actual fuel differences are
negligable; most people do more damage to their fuel economy
bumper-humping and speeding to the next red light than they could ever
save by anticipating shifts properly.
--
"You are a winner. But that doesn't mean you aren't a loser."
-- [jealous] co-worker after I won two iPods
Graham Reed
> Starting moving on an uphill slope, without stalling the
> engine, is what took me the longest to master.
...wavylines...
So, I haven't mastered hill starts yet. But I've read the Ontario
Driver's Handbook on the subject, and know how to use the handbrake.
I'm getting pretty good on level terrain.
So my dad wants me to drive the whole family (5 people and a dog) in
the Accord hatcback ('85 model, way before the current supersized
one). Nice little car, actually.
So the road that goes from where we live to where our friends live has
some of the steepest hills in Toronto. Almost as steep as Avenue
Road, but it's just a residential side street.
So of course there's a stop sign half-way up the steepest hill. And
there's cross traffic, so I can't cheat and roll the stop.
So I stop. And reach down and pull up the handbrake lever....
So dad says, "Don't use the brake. Just give it more gas, it'll go."
So I put the brake back down, and give it more gas, and let the clutch
out quicker than I would normally.
So the car goes "SCREEEEEEEEEEECH!" and zooms up the hill.
So dad says, somewhat shakily, "Not that much gas."
...wavylines...
Now that I have my own damn car, I can use the handbrake whenever I
want! Even with the hill-holder re-instated for the '08 model year,
though now it uses the ABS/TCS stuff and is called "hill-start
assist", I'll still grab the brake when rolling the wrong way would be
Extra Bad. (Like off the parking slab into a tree....)
--
But it is for a good reason. Not dying on the job is cool.
-- Randy the Random in the Monastery
Mark L Pappin
> I suspect that even the Danes
> complain about the "hills" in Denmark
A highlight of my first trip there was to visit Himmelbjerg ("Heaven
Mountain"), the country's highest peak. At 167m it was less total
elevation than the delta I regularly travelled at home.
mlp
Robert Uhl
>
> So, yes, the little cars, have much better autos than before. For
> many drivers, I would think that the actual fuel differences are
> negligable; most people do more damage to their fuel economy
> bumper-humping and speeding to the next red light than they could ever
> save by anticipating shifts properly.
I've noticed that over the last year my fellow drivers have gotten a
_lot_ more laid-back than they used to be. I wonder if they're finally
getting religion.
Heck, some are doing 60 in a 65. Which should be punishable by flaying
on the roadside. Still, it's a nice change from doing 85 mph in 75 mph
_traffic_ in a 55 mph zone.
--
Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms should be the name of a store, not a
government agency.
Robert Uhl
>> (which is coincidentally due the same day a couple of US politicians
>> are going to face another kind of test). Human control over the gears
>> in this case involves a lot of crunching noises and shaved metal plus
>> kangaroo-hops out into passing traffic and stall-outs on hills.
>
> transmissions have embarrassing (if not painful) memories of the
> learning experience. Starting moving on an uphill slope, without
> stalling the engine, is what took me the longest to master.
My _very_ first drivers' ed class, the teacher took me to a hill and had
me (try to) drive. In a manual. With absolutely no instruction. Along
a reasonably-travelled road (or so it seemed to my scared eyes, anyway).
After what seemed like several days of falling backwards, he had me set
the parking brake, we did a Chinese fire drill and he found a nice flat
area to teach me on...
--
It's a good thing that HP never acquired the rights to penicillin. If
they had, mankind would have perished from widespread disease while HP
tried to figure out how integrate it with anthrax. --Anonymous
Robert Uhl
>
>> Meanwhile, a "World Justice Council" will have replaced the courts
>> and will consider such penalties to be unappealable.
>
> Due to ``cost savings''. Because the Council gave the contract to run
> the World Justice System to Justice Solutions llc, who promptly
> outsourced and offshored it to ShariaCo in Pakistan. Which in turn is
> an umbrella to a conglomerate of small-time operators spread through
> the remains of what was once called the middle east.
Heh...I wonder how long until some reasonable-sounding arbitration firm
named something like 'Hampstead Arbitrations' is really a wholly-owned
subsidiary of al-Jabaz Amal Aziz Islamic Judgements, and someone like
Leah Culver ends up having her testimony count for half because she's a
woman.
One really does wonder if Poitiers and Vienna were for nothing.
--
It's a beautiful hymn--at 5 mins. It looses something at 45.
--Megan, on the Hymn of Cassiana and vain cantors
c...@nospam.netunix.com
> In message <kq6hd4lsuddv6ca36...@4ax.com>, SteveD
> <use...@vo.id.au> writes
>
> >Locally, auto seems to be mainly confined to family barges. Automatics
> >have a reputation for being idiosyncratic and expensive, with human
> >control over the gears producing more accurate and responsive results.
>
> (which is coincidentally due the same day a couple of US politicians are
> going to face another kind of test). Human control over the gears in
> this case involves a lot of crunching noises and shaved metal plus
> kangaroo-hops out into passing traffic and stall-outs on hills.
Go back to basics, clutch control is one of the most basic skills which
should be taught before a learner is allowed on the open road.
Using only the clutch the learner should be taught to "walk to heel"
keeping the door mirror inline with the instructors shoulder while
the instructor walks alongside the drivers door.
The clue lies in finding the bite point and featheriing the pedal
around this point.
Some vehicles may need to have the tickover set slightly high.
When I were a lad this was done in the yard around an obstacle course
of cones. In my case using a 3 ton truck.
--
From the quill of Chris Newport g4jci.
John F. Eldredge
> Robert Sneddon is of the opinion:
>> In message <6js5hoF...@mid.individual.net>, John F. Eldredge
>><jo...@jfeldredge.com> writes
>>>On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 10:40:22 +0100, Robert Sneddon wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm helping a learner driver get some road practice before her test
>>
>>> Starting moving on an uphill slope, without stalling the
>>>engine, is what took me the longest to master.
>>
>> In the UK, a hill start is a required part of the driving test.
>> Rolling
>> back even fractionally is an automatic (so to speak) fail.
>
> Nice. Last I heard, here in .nsw.au, you need to do a hill start
> (although the "hill" I did mine on needed a spirit level to work out
> which way was "down"), but you've got a certain amount of leeway in a
> manual, and no leeway in an automatic. Which makes a certain amount of
> sense -- a few centimetres rollback in a manual just means "I didn't
> quite pick the friction point right", while a few centimetres in an auto
> means "I put it in N, not D". Big difference in degree of
> whoopsiness...
>
> - Matt
In the USA, manual transmissions are rare enough that they aren't part of
the standard driver's test[1]. I got my driver's license at age 16, but
didn't buy a manual-transmission car until age 30, so that was the point
at which I was going through the kangaroo-hop stage.
[1] Well, to be precise, I can only say that manual-transmission
techniques weren't part of the Kentucky driver's examination in 1973 or
of the Tennessee driver's examination in 1976. When I moved to Tennessee
in 1976, I didn't apply for a Tennessee driver's license until a few days
after my Kentucky license expired, so they made me take the test again.
--
John F. Eldredge -- jo...@jfeldredge.com
PGP key available from http://pgp.mit.edu
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better
than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria
John F. Eldredge
No, in that case I think an ejection seat would be the most help (well,
for you, not for the freightliner).
Matt Palmer
Wow, you've been mostly slushbox for that long? <long whistle>
Here you can choose to do the test in either an automatic or a manual. If
you do it in an automatic, then your licence is endorsed as "automatic
only", and for the period of your provisional licence (3 years) you aren't
allowed to drive a manual without supervision, as if you were still a
learner (you can lift this restriction by re-taking the test in a manual if
need be).
My family only had automatics when I took the test, so I got the endorsed
licence. By the time I had my first introduction to a manual car (my
now-wife's cherished but now dearly-departed beetle) I was off my
provisional licence (although back then it was only a 1 year thing) and
could drive whatever I liked. I'd been riding bikes for a while by then, so
the theory of a manual transmission wasn't unknown to me, just the practical
aspects vis a vis cars.
- Matt
Alan J Rosenthal
>The other exception is the "loss leader". You may find a dealer advertising
>for something like a Dodge Dakota for some too-low-to-be-true price.
>When you get there, what you find is a regular cab, manual trans, [...]
That's not what a "loss leader" is.
David Gersic
> Graham Reed <gr...@pobox.com> writes:
>>
>> So, yes, the little cars, have much better autos than before. For
>> many drivers, I would think that the actual fuel differences are
>> negligable; most people do more damage to their fuel economy
>> bumper-humping and speeding to the next red light than they could ever
>> save by anticipating shifts properly.
>
> I've noticed that over the last year my fellow drivers have gotten a
> _lot_ more laid-back than they used to be. I wonder if they're finally
> getting religion.
I've been noticing that, too. I don't drive far to work, just 5 miles
one way, but traffic is moving slower and a bit calmer. Now what would
be nice is if they'd get the traffic lights timed so that we don't have
to start/stop/start/stop/start all the way there, in an area with 55
MPH speed limits.
David Gersic
> David Gersic <usenet_s...@zaccaria-pinball.com> writes:
>> The idea is simple, so I can't see any really good reason why the cheap
>> ones aren't doing it. The lockup torque convertor isn't a new idea any
>> more.
>
> The cheap ones _are_ doing it. It's just that inefficiencies in the
> bigger motors mean that the transmission differences are less
> loticable.
If the torque converter is locked, though, I'd expect even a little
4-banger to get about the same milage as it would have with a stick.
But the original stat (38 vs 33 on highway) quoted either means that
there are other parasitic losses in the auto vs. the manual, or I'm
missing something.
> I bought the manual anyway 'cause I'm a cheap bastard and I like
> driving manual.
I buy manual because I like them. My last truck (Isuzu Amigo), and
my current truck (Dodge Dakota) are both manual. Prior to the Isuzu,
I drove a true land yacht, a '73 Buick LeSabre; that had an auto.
> So, yes, the little cars, have much better autos than before. For
> many drivers, I would think that the actual fuel differences are
> negligable; most people do more damage to their fuel economy
> bumper-humping and speeding to the next red light than they could ever
> save by anticipating shifts properly.
Agreed.