Inhouse Spam
Florian Weps
My company is even more full of lusers than I suspected - while it is
largish, with entire non-technical departments of NT users doing
office work, whom consequently I had filed away as pretty but
harmless, it has now dawned upon me that my own techie-filled niche is
also brimming with bullshit:
Bad week so far, with server crashes over the last week-end (old raid
controller firmware doing naughty things), my SO having a seizure on
Monday (epilepsy since she was a kid - mostly under control nowadays,
and luckily she didn't hurt herself), customers complaining to our
bosses about how long it is taking us to finish their projects when
they never exactly tell us what it is they want, and our network
engineers starting to unplug our dedicated backup networks for
aesthetic reasons without telling us more that ten minutes beforehand.
Today, while answering phone calls and writing soothing emails to
management and prodding a flaky cluster configuration I notice
incoming mail on the company-wide mailing list used for Very Important
Notifications. It is:
From: electronic-wor...@we.are.stupid.dot.com
To: ever...@we.are.stupid.dot.com
Subject: Get "2 for 1" tickets for Luser Football Team match next week!!!
<HTML><many more tags setting up glossy letters and other crap>
We are sending this mail on behalf of the Idiot in Advertising:
Since we are sponsors for Luser Football Team, we are pleased to tell
you that we were able to secure a limited number of tickets for the match
next week, when they will be horribly clobbered by a much better team...
(I transliterated, and something is always lost in translation. The
original mail was just a silly, just as HTML, and utterly serious in
intent).
I exploded. This kind of in-house spam is coming in regularly,
promising tickets for amusement parks, covers for cellphones and other
useless trash. I replied in email to Idiot In advertising, with CC to
electronic Workplace Manager, stating that I was not interested, and
that his spam was interrupting my work.
To my surprise, Electronic Workplace Manager responded (CC to my Boss
and my Boss' Boss), that employees were generally glad to be informed
of these special offers, that there was always the delete key for
things I didn't like, and that since our standard MUA supported HTML,
he did not see any reason not to use it.
That clown is a couple of offices away from me, he heads the team
tending our NT workstations which we are required to have (even though
we admin Tru64 and AIX), and I generally thought him a nice person. I
have no idea what pissed him off (apart from my remarks about HTML
mails - and he knows I hate them).
Tomorrow is our eighth wedding anniversary, and I wasn't even able to
take the day off. I'll sneak off in the afternoon, I think.
Three days down, two to go. Aw, no, on Friday night I am allowed to
perform that firmware update on the RAID boxes, the one that requires
us to shut down the servers connected to it. And since the raidsets
are corrupt thereon, due to the virtues of buggy *****Q firmware, I'll
be juggling tapes and disks for most of the night rebuilding the
beasts afterwards.
Florian
--
Compaq has set a direction. And when enough information will become available
to Compaq, it might be able to draw a roadmap. But as far as I am concerned,
Compaq is blindly going where no other box maker has gone before. And that is
not a quality enterprise customers want to see in a vendor. -- JF Mezei
Paul Tomblin
>things I didn't like, and that since our standard MUA supported HTML,
>he did not see any reason not to use it.
Actually, HTML is very useful. As a flag to say "you don't need to read
this email".
--
Paul Tomblin <ptom...@xcski.com>, not speaking for anybody
"AOL would be a giant diesel-smoking bus with hundreds of ebola victims on
board throwing dead wombats and rotten cabbage at the other cars"
- a.s.r throws the Information Superhighway metaphor into reverse.
Suresh Ramasubramanian
> From: electronic-wor...@we.are.stupid.dot.com
> To: ever...@we.are.stupid.dot.com
> Subject: Get "2 for 1" tickets for Luser Football Team match next week!!!
stateside in the Boston and Jersey City offices would happily send out mail to
all@world.$DOMAIN.com - stuff like "Foo's had a new kid", "Bar's birthday
today, y'all are invited to a party at $NYC_HOTEL", "HR is organizing a golfing
weekend at $golf_course in upstate NYC" ...
... all in glorious HTML (which I didn't need to see anyway, courtesy my having
badgered my boss into letting me keep my mailbox on the sun boxen there.
Naturally, they'd got a large staff in India, quite a few of whom didn't know
'em from Adam's off ox - and couldn't care less.
-suresh
Suresh Ramasubramanian
> I once accepted an invite to a white-water rafting weekend sent
> from the .us office to .au.
> I'm told they waited in the car-park about 30 minutes before they
> realized why I wasn't there.
If I wasn't busy procmailing the lot to be read later by Dave Null, I'd have
been thinking of similar things. I wish I were you, and I wish I could have
been there in that car park, with a webcam.
-suresh
David Cantrell
Ramasubramanian) said:
>+++ Florian Weps <30 Aug 2001 01:39:53 +0200> [alt.sysadmin.recovery]:
>> From: electronic-wor...@we.are.stupid.dot.com
>> To: ever...@we.are.stupid.dot.com
>> Subject: Get "2 for 1" tickets for Luser Football Team match next week!!!
>
>Eww. Even worse at a previous $ORKPLACE, where the HR and other lusers
>stateside in the Boston and Jersey City offices would happily send out mail to
>all@world.$DOMAIN.com - stuff like "Foo's had a new kid", "Bar's birthday
>today, y'all are invited to a party at $NYC_HOTEL", "HR is organizing a golfing
>weekend at $golf_course in upstate NYC" ...
>
>Naturally, they'd got a large staff in India, quite a few of whom didn't know
>'em from Adam's off ox - and couldn't care less.
We had similar problems at Oven Digital before they went titsup.com in
January and failed to pay their bills and salaries and stuff*. I feel
your pain.
I take it that your people started doing the same in $local_language
which would come out as gibberish at their end?
* - I'M not bitter, cos I got recovered a month before they went bust
so I got my month's notice and all the money I was owed, but my many
excellent colleagues** weren't so lucky.
** - and the revolting numijascum too of course
--
David Cantrell | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david
Steve Sobol
>I exploded. This kind of in-house spam is coming in regularly,
>promising tickets for amusement parks, covers for cellphones and other
>useless trash. I replied in email to Idiot In advertising, with CC to
>electronic Workplace Manager, stating that I was not interested, and
>that his spam was interrupting my work.
Unfortunately, your company probably owns the equipment, and that
gives them the right to do whatever they want with it - but if they're
going to be that obtuse about it, perhaps it's time to go jobhunting.
--
JustThe.net LLC - Steve "Web Dude" Sobol, CTO - sjs...@JustThe.net
Donate a portion of your monthly ISP bill to your favorite charity or
non-profit organization! E-mail me for details.
Suresh Ramasubramanian
> I take it that your people started doing the same in $local_language
> which would come out as gibberish at their end?
We kept out of the DSW (and we all used English to talk with each other). Our
HR people (and others) kept the "new kid, party, hot new deal" to the local
staff mailing lists, thank $DEITY.
FWIW, I, for one, have been in so many states in India, all of which speak a
different language, that I'm not even comfortable with my mother tongue (can
speak it haltingly, spell it out in print etc). I prefer English (and Hindi
[1] sometimes)
-suresh
[1] My mother tongue is Tamil ...
Mark W. Schumann
Oh, cool. Do you know a guy named...
Too warm for a coat, that Linux T-shirt is mine though.
Suresh Ramasubramanian
> In article <slrn9otjn8....@blackehlo.cluestick.org>,
> Suresh Ramasubramanian <sur...@hserus.net> wrote:
> >[1] My mother tongue is Tamil ...
> Oh, cool. Do you know a guy named...
> Too warm for a coat, that Linux T-shirt is mine though.
This one?
Black / White Lee t-shirts (or at least, Lee - like t shirts with a Lee logo
embroidered on them <g>) ...
Front:
<center>
1991
"Hello everybody out there using minix ..."
2001
"What's Minix?"
TwinCLinG
(Twin Cities Linux Group)
Celebrates 10 years of Linux
August 25th, 2001
</center>
Back:
<center>
2001
Welcome to Linux
It's now safe to turn on your Computer
</center>
Matthew W. Miller
<usenet-...@barnyard.co.uk> wrote:
>We had similar problems at Oven Digital before they went titsup.com
How disappointing-- titsup.com is taken, but there's no web site. There's
a http://www.titsup.net/ ... and, yes, it's a squatter. Of *course* it's
a squatter. I forget-- are there any web sites that *aren't* squatters
nowadays?
--
Matthew W. Miller -- mwmi...@columbus.rr.com
Dan Birchall
> In a previous article, Florian Weps <fw...@pop.agri.ch> said:
> >things I didn't like, and that since our standard MUA supported HTML,
> >he did not see any reason not to use it.
>
> Actually, HTML is very useful. As a flag to say "you don't need to read
> this email".
Gosh, I've been interpreting it as "If you reply to this email, be
sure to include lots pointers to hosts with SLDs like 'goatse' and
'flatten' in 1x1 image tags."
-Dan
(I know, you already saw what I said about it in Risks 21.05)
--
Dan Birchall - Palolo Valley - Hawaii - http://www.danbirchall.com/
Sick of your debt? Make Money Last! http://www.makemoneylast.com/
Please read my address carefully if you're considering spamming me.
Alan Shutko
> I forget-- are there any web sites that *aren't* squatters nowadays?
I recommend getting domain names from your dreams. springies.com was
available until I finally got around to snagging it this year, while
it welled up from my subconscious a couple years ago.
--
Alan Shutko <a...@acm.org> - In a variety of flavors!
Sign in a shoe repair shop: "We bring back departed soles."
Don W.
>In a previous article, Florian Weps <fw...@pop.agri.ch> said:
>>things I didn't like, and that since our standard MUA supported HTML,
>>he did not see any reason not to use it.
>
>Actually, HTML is very useful. As a flag to say "you don't need to read
>this email".
Good point.
I've always used it as a pointer for "This is where I should send a
\"Special\" christmas gift; like one of those cannisters I picked up
filled with antrax, hanta, ebola, and cat piss."
--
Don Werve (Unix System Administrator)
Email: `echo 'qba.rknzra@pbz' | tr '@.' '.@' | rot13`
"We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed
in. Some of us just go one god further." - Richard Dawkins
Don W.
...and a high-powered rifle.
Don W.
>How disappointing-- titsup.com is taken, but there's no web site. There's
>a http://www.titsup.net/ ... and, yes, it's a squatter. Of *course* it's
>a squatter. I forget-- are there any web sites that *aren't* squatters
>nowadays?
Well, Slashdo...er, nevermind.
David Cantrell
<dev...@hserus.net> said:
>FWIW, I, for one, have been in so many states in India, all of which speak a
>different language, that I'm not even comfortable with my mother tongue (can
>speak it haltingly, spell it out in print etc). I prefer English (and Hindi
>sometimes)
I find it rather disturbing that English is such an unstoppable
juggernaut*. I was having a drink with a very good Swedish friend** a
few weeks ago and he told me that he prefers to write in English as he
can express himself better in it. Ugh.
* - Hindi loan-word of the day
** - who has promised to introduce me to some good liquid recovery in
Stockholm later this month. Yay!
Zebee Johnstone
David Cantrell <usenet-...@barnyard.co.uk> wrote:
>
>I find it rather disturbing that English is such an unstoppable
>juggernaut*. I was having a drink with a very good Swedish friend** a
>few weeks ago and he told me that he prefers to write in English as he
>can express himself better in it. Ugh.
>
It's got a lot of advantages. Good with loan words. You can make
yourself understood with minimal grammar, and your own language's
syntax can often be pressed into service.
Do a what-if... What would it have taken to have Latin continue as the
standard cross-cultural language?
French was more common than English for quite a while, it was the
"language of diplomacy" till the late 1800s for example. But would a
bit more French Empire and a bit less British Empire have been enough?
Would the US have tilted the balance too far?
Zebee
Paul Tomblin
>French was more common than English for quite a while, it was the
>"language of diplomacy" till the late 1800s for example. But would a
>bit more French Empire and a bit less British Empire have been enough?
>Would the US have tilted the balance too far?
If there had been "a bit more French Empire and a bit less British
Empire", what makes you think the US would have been English? Maybe the
balance would have hinged on whether France could keep New France, and
then New France would have settled the rest of the continent.
--
Paul Tomblin <ptom...@xcski.com>, not speaking for anybody
"The Computer made me do it."
Satya
<usenet-...@barnyard.co.uk> wrote:
>I find it rather disturbing that English is such an unstoppable
>juggernaut*. I was having a drink with a very good Swedish friend** a
>* - Hindi loan-word of the day
*WHAT*?
I don't think that's Hindi. I can't think from which Hindi word it could
have evolved, but that could be because I've got a third (fourth?)
language streaming in right now.
--
Satya.
Suresh Ramasubramanian
> On Fri, 31 Aug 2001 22:16:29 +0100, David Cantrell
> <usenet-...@barnyard.co.uk> wrote:
> >I find it rather disturbing that English is such an unstoppable
> >juggernaut*. I was having a drink with a very good Swedish friend** a
> >* - Hindi loan-word of the day
> *WHAT*?
Yes in fact. From "Jagannath". Some Englishman (presumably) saw the "car
festival" at the Puri Jagannath temple, where devotees pull a huge (and I mean
huge) wooden chariot with the temple idols around the streets of Puri, once a
year. What likely happened is that some luser got stuck under the wheels of
the chariot and squashed to pulp.
Our friend the Englishman at once concludes that this "Juggernaut" insists on
human sacrifice, and these poor lusers are the sacrifice.
The story grew with the telling, over several liters of chota-pegs (small
whisky and water) and gin and tonics.
-suresh
Suresh Ramasubramanian
> While this sounds not at all unlikely, the derivation I was taught was
> that a juggernaut was something that was huge & unstoppable, & that if
Tell you what ... it is huge - and it does get pulled along at a fair clip. If
some luser is idiot enough to get in the way of one, it's moving a bit too fast
- and has no brakes (it is steered by putting blocks under the wheels and using
huge crowbars, lots of elbow grease)
So, luser gets flattened. As he's not Wile E Coyote, he doesn't survive the
flattening. Logic :)
> anybody got in it's way, they'd be crushed. An important factor was that
> there was no malice involved whatever, just back luck. "Crushed beneath
> the juggernaut of progress", etc.
Bad luck is right. It rarely happens - the people pulling the chariot are pros
who have been doing it for years - and the rest of the crowd knows to keep a
decent distance away.
-suresh
Alan J. Wylie
>> Yes in fact. From "Jagannath". Some Englishman (presumably) saw
>> the "car festival" at the Puri Jagannath temple, where devotees
>> pull a huge (and I mean huge) wooden chariot with the temple idols
>> around the streets of Puri, once a year. What likely happened is
>> that some luser got stuck under the wheels of the chariot and
>> squashed to pulp.
>>
>> Our friend the Englishman at once concludes that this "Juggernaut"
>> insists on human sacrifice, and these poor lusers are the
>> sacrifice.
> While this sounds not at all unlikely, the derivation I was taught
> was that a juggernaut was something that was huge & unstoppable, &
> that if anybody got in it's way, they'd be crushed. An important
^[1]
> factor was that there was no malice involved whatever, just back
> luck. "Crushed beneath the juggernaut of progress", etc.
I almost got crushed under a ritual cart today. On the steep hill
between the top and bottom roads in Sowerby Bridge, a police-woman
suddenly leapt out in front of me, making me brake harder than was
desirable (although gravity was working in my favour). The annual
Rush Bearing ceremony was coming down the road: at the head of the
procession were motley groups of Morris Men and Women, preceding a
large cart[2] "pulled" (although at the time it didn't need to be)
by about sixteen rather inebriated men, braked by a similar number
pulling on ropes from behind.
I had been stopped in the middle of a junction, at which point the
procession was turning left onto a road running horizontally. The
*interesting* dynamics of a heavy wagon with strings attached were
apparent as it approached my car - the first men went past me with
plenty of room, but those closest to the cart were having to raise
the poles, which were attached to the ropes, into the air to avoid
striking my car, and the rush cart itself passed me with inches of
clearance at the most. When the police-woman spoke to me again to
give me the all-clear, she remarked "well, that was a close shave".
The official program[3] states "Hauling the rushcart is, of course,
thirsty work thus ensuring that pubs too feature strongly on the
itinerary". It would have been *interesting* had the cart collided
with my car. Should I have asked the police officer to breathalyse
those involved? I am sure that the insurance claim form would have
raised a few chuckles among those miserable sods who process these
things, and my poor ten year old SAAB is now suffering from weekly
failures (this week's was a dribble from the washer reservoir), so
I wouldn't have been *too* unhappy at her being written off.
[1] news:alt.possessive.its.has.no.apostrophe is an interesting
news group.
[2] http://homepages.force9.net/stringfellow/rushbearing/History/2.htm
[3] Only a Yorkshireman would have the gall to try and sell a
commemorative program to someone in a traffic jam that they
themselves had caused.
--
Alan J. Wylie http://www.glaramara.freeserve.co.uk/
"Perfection [in design] is achieved not when there is nothing left to add,
but rather when there is nothing left to take away."
Antoine de Saint-Exupery
David P. Murphy
> Lather, rinse, impact clue, repeat.
^^^^^^^^^^^
Immediately made me think of "we should stop throwing rocks at it;
there's nothing there anymore".
no STR points, it's just appropriate, that's all.
ok
dpm
--
David P. Murphy http://www.myths.com/~dpm/
systems programmer ftp://ftp.myths.com
mailto:d...@myths.com (personal)
COGITO ERGO DISCLAMO mailto:Murphy...@emc.com (work)
Ralph Wade Phillips
"David P. Murphy" <d...@myths.com> wrote in message
news:tp2rma1...@news.supernews.com...
> Toni Lassila <to...@nukespam.org> wrote:
>
> > Lather, rinse, impact clue, repeat.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Immediately made me think of "we should stop throwing rocks at it;
> there's nothing there anymore".
>
> no STR points, it's just appropriate, that's all.
I'm Manuel O'Kelly, and I claim the #2 arm.
RwP
J.D. Baldwin
In the previous article, David Cantrell
<usenet-...@barnyard.co.uk> wrote:
> I find it rather disturbing that English is such an unstoppable
> juggernaut*.
It irritates me no end when I visit a foreign (to me) country, and
practically everything is in English. Sure, I bother to learn a
smattering of the language (it impresses the natives), but what's the
bloody good if I'm not forced to use it?
I am pleased to report that things weren't so bad in São Paulo,
Brazil, in this respect. English is in a lot of places and ads (and
they have a channel that shows "Friends" about six hours a day, with
Portuguese subtitles), but I wouldn't call it pervasive just yet.
On the other hand, it's nice seeing the idealistic dream of a
universal language closer to realization than it's been in all of
human history. Too bad that Esperanto thing didn't pan out, eh? [1]
> I was having a drink with a very good Swedish friend** a few weeks
> ago and he told me that he prefers to write in English as he can
> express himself better in it. Ugh.
I have heard this very thing more than once from Swedes and
Norwegians. In fact, one Norwegian told me she spoke English
frequently with her friends while in high school, because Norwegian
simply wasn't up to the task of communicating what they had in mind at
the moment.
> * - Hindi loan-word of the day
Since this raised its very own sub-thread (weird characters rendered
as _):
Juggernaut, _ Jagannath (__________). Also 7 Jaggarnat,
Jagannat, -ernot, 8 Jagernaut, (-arynat), 8-9 Jaganaut, 9
Jaggernaut, Jaga-Naut, (Jaghernaut, Jugunnath); and with
lower-case initial.
[a. Hindi Jagannath:-Skr. Jagannatha 'lord of the world',
f. jagat world + natha lord, protector. (The short a in Hindi
is = (_), whence the Eng. spelling Jugger-, with u and er.)]
1. Hindu Myth. A title of Krishna, the eighth avatar of
Vishnu; spec., the uncouth idol of this deity at Pur_ in
Orissa, annually dragged in procession on an enormous car,
under the wheels of which many devotees are said to have
formerly thrown themselves to be crushed. Also attrib.
The first European account of the Juggernaut festival, and its
attendant immolations, is that by Friar Odoric, c 1321. See
Yule, Cathay and the Way thither 28.
1638 W. Bruton in Hakluyt Voy. (1812) V. 56-7 Vnto this
Pagod..doe belong 9,000 Brammines or Priests, which doe dayly
offer Sacrifice vnto their great God Iaggarnat... And when it
[the chariot] is going along the City, there are many that
will offer themselves a sacrifice to this Idoll.
1682 Hedges Diary 16 July I. 30 We lay by all last night till
10 o'clock this morning, ye Captain being desirous to see ye
Jagernot Pagodas.
1727 A. Hamilton New Acc. E. Ind. I. 384 Jagarynat..his
Effigie is often carried abroad in Procession, mounted on a
Coach four Stories high.
1796 Morse Amer. Geog. II. 555 In this province stands the
idolatrous temple of Jaganaut.
1814 Asiat. Jrnl. (Y.), Juggernaut made some progress on the
19th, and has travelled daily ever since.
1825 A. Stirling in Asiat. Res. XV. 324 That excess of
fanaticism which formerly prompted the pilgrims to court death
by throwing themselves in crowds under the wheels of the car
of Jagannath, has happily long ceased.
1827 Poynder in Asiat. Jrnl. XXIII. 702/1 About the year 1790,
no fewer than twenty-eight Hindoos were crushed to
death..under the wheels of Juggernaut.
1878 N. Amer. Rev. CXXVII. 342 The temple and worship of
Jagannath.
Too much information?
[1] Why no, that *wasn't* an invitation for you to tell me how great
Esperanto is, and how many people speak it, and how many clubs
there are centered around it, and how cool Harry Harrison thinks
it is, etc., etc. When I get on an airplane and flight attendants
routinely deliver safety briefings in it, I'll give it a look,
okay?
--
_+_ From the catapult of |If anyone disagrees with any statement I make, I
_|70|___:)=}- J.D. Baldwin |am quite prepared not only to retract it, but also
\ / bal...@panix.com|to deny under oath that I ever made it. -T. Lehrer
***~~~~-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Suresh Ramasubramanian
> 1. Hindu Myth. A title of Krishna, the eighth avatar of
> Vishnu; spec., the uncouth idol of this deity at Pur_ in
s/\_/i/
> The first European account of the Juggernaut festival, and its
> attendant immolations, is that by Friar Odoric, c 1321. See
> Yule, Cathay and the Way thither 28.
Not bad at all. Where'd you get this from, Hobson-Jobson?
> Too much information?
No. Not at all. Being a quizzer [1] I rather like it that way.
-suresh
J.D. Baldwin
In the previous article, Suresh Ramasubramanian <sur...@hserus.net> wrote:
> J.D Baldwin [alt.sysadmin.recovery] <2 Sep 2001 05:08:19 GMT>:
> > 1. Hindu Myth. A title of Krishna, the eighth avatar of
> > Vishnu; spec., the uncouth idol of this deity at Pur_ in
>
> s/\_/i/
In this case, the i had a little bar over it. I replaced the ones in
"Hindi" with regular i's, but I missed that one. (The "u" in "Puri"
had a little bar, too, but it transliterated just fine.)
> > The first European account of the Juggernaut festival, and its
> > attendant immolations, is that by Friar Odoric, c 1321. See
> > Yule, Cathay and the Way thither 28.
>
> Not bad at all. Where'd you get this from, Hobson-Jobson?
Blast. I meant to mention that it was cut and pasted from the
electronical OED. (It's late. I'm not sleepy, but I am tired.) It
was expensive enough, by God, I'm going to wring every possible use
out of it.
> > Too much information?
>
> No. Not at all. Being a quizzer [1] I rather like it that way.
In retrospect, I probably busted the limits of "fair use," but then
there is that bit about "educational" uses of copyrighted material,
right?
Suresh Ramasubramanian
> In this case, the i had a little bar over it. I replaced the ones in
> "Hindi" with regular i's, but I missed that one. (The "u" in "Puri"
> had a little bar, too, but it transliterated just fine.)
Just that it's a long i (an ee sound). Pooree would be a fairly accurate
pronunciation.
> Blast. I meant to mention that it was cut and pasted from the
> electronical OED. (It's late. I'm not sleepy, but I am tired.) It
I see. Worth every cent you paid for it anyway.
> In retrospect, I probably busted the limits of "fair use," but then
> there is that bit about "educational" uses of copyrighted material,
> right?
Of course. And given the sheer size of the OED, what you quoted is extremely
small in comparison - so fair use should be OK as well :)
-suresh
Mark W. Schumann
J.D. Baldwin <baldwi...@panix.com> wrote:
>In retrospect, I probably busted the limits of "fair use," but then
>there is that bit about "educational" uses of copyrighted material,
>right?
Tell it to the judge, sir.
We are the Copyright Police. Come out with your hands up.
(Cut-n-paste is a circumvention device.)
Logan Shaw
J.D. Baldwin <baldwi...@panix.com> wrote:
>On the other hand, it's nice seeing the idealistic dream of a
>universal language closer to realization than it's been in all of
>human history. Too bad that Esperanto thing didn't pan out, eh? [1]
Not really. From what I hear, lots of linguists think that while
the idea behind Esperanto may be laudable, the actual language is
kinda a joke. It claims to be unbiased and universal and whatnot,
but in reality it steals blatantly from European languages and
ignores the existence of the rest, so it's relatively easy for
westerners to learn but hard for everybody else.
- Logan
--
"Our grandkids love that we get Roadrunner and digital cable."
(Advertisement for Time Warner cable TV and internet access, July 2001)
Omri Schwarz
> Satya [alt.sysadmin.recovery] <Fri, 31 Aug 2001 17:36:18 +0000>:
> > On Fri, 31 Aug 2001 22:16:29 +0100, David Cantrell
> > <usenet-...@barnyard.co.uk> wrote:
> > >I find it rather disturbing that English is such an unstoppable
> > >juggernaut*. I was having a drink with a very good Swedish friend** a
> > >* - Hindi loan-word of the day
>
> > *WHAT*?
>
> Yes in fact. From "Jagannath".
(Completely unrelated side line)
A friend of mine from southern India referred to
it as a Jugannak. He also referred to Tamil-Nadu
as Tamil-Nak. Is this a regional variation?
--
Omri Schwarz --- ocs...@mit.edu ('h' before war)
Timeless wisdom of biomedical engineering: "Noise is principally
due to the presence of the patient." -- R.F. Farr
Suresh Ramasubramanian
> (Completely unrelated side line)
> A friend of mine from southern India referred to
> it as a Jugannak. He also referred to Tamil-Nadu
> as Tamil-Nak. Is this a regional variation?
That 'k' is actually a chopped off 'd' sound. Dunno how you parsed it as a K
- maybe the guy had a fairly nasal accent, along with a heavy cold?
--suresh
Omri Schwarz
If health issues are the likely cause then
my lousy hearing* is a likelier suspect.
* for which I can thank Arafat..
Calle Dybedahl
> I was having a drink with a very good Swedish friend** a few weeks
> ago and he told me that he prefers to write in English as he can
> express himself better in it. Ugh.
Quite a few people think so. Most are wrong, they just don't know
English well enough to see all the nuances they're missing.
> ** - who has promised to introduce me to some good liquid recovery
> in Stockholm later this month. Yay!
There are Stockholmian monk-type people who might welcome liquid
recovery later this month...
--
Calle Dybedahl <ca...@lysator.liu.se>
"I considered suggesting that... but didn't want to dilute the purity of the
flame with a helpful idea." -- Asher Desnmore-Lynn, sjgames.pyramid
Patrick R. Wade
>Suresh Ramasubramanian <dev...@hserus.net> writes:
>
>> Omri Schwarz [alt.sysadmin.recovery] <02 Sep 2001 23:59:36 -0400>:
>> > (Completely unrelated side line)
>> > A friend of mine from southern India referred to
>> > it as a Jugannak. He also referred to Tamil-Nadu
>> > as Tamil-Nak. Is this a regional variation?
>>
>> That 'k' is actually a chopped off 'd' sound. Dunno how you parsed it as a K
>> - maybe the guy had a fairly nasal accent, along with a heavy cold?
>
>If health issues are the likely cause then
>
Perhaps he was having trouble with his terminak?
--
"If my son wants to be a pimp when he grows up, that's fine with me. I
hope he's a good one and enjoys it and doesn't get caught. I'll support
him in this. But if he wants to be a network administrator, he's out of
the house and not part of my family." Steve Wozniak, http://www.woz.org
Suresh Ramasubramanian
> In article <octn14c...@no-knife.mit.edu>, Omri Schwarz wrote:
> >If health issues are the likely cause then
> >my lousy hearing is a likelier suspect.
>
> Perhaps he was having trouble with his terminak?
NACK
-suresh
J.D. Baldwin
In the previous article, Dimitri Maziuk <dma...@bmrb.wisc.edu> wrote,
quoting me:
> > Blast. I meant to mention that it was cut and pasted from the
> > electronical OED. (It's late. I'm not sleepy, but I am tired.) It
> > was expensive enough, by God, I'm going to wring every possible use
> > out of it.
> >
> >> > Too much information?
>
> says that luser sacrifice part is an UL [0]. Their references look
> genuine enough, too. Strange that your D doesn't include that bit of
> information.
Well, the OED isn't in the debunking business, it's in the etymology
business. They don't care whether the story is true, just whether
it's been *told* -- with the attendant spawn or adoption of a new
word.
Their phrasing was "many devotees are said to have formerly thrown
themselves." And this, as they demonstrate, is eminently true.
Michael Hinz
> In article <9mses3$9rt$1...@news.panix.com>,
> J.D. Baldwin <baldwi...@panix.com> wrote:
> >On the other hand, it's nice seeing the idealistic dream of a
> >universal language closer to realization than it's been in all of
> >human history. Too bad that Esperanto thing didn't pan out, eh? [1]
>
> Not really. From what I hear, lots of linguists think that while
> the idea behind Esperanto may be laudable, the actual language is
> kinda a joke. It claims to be unbiased and universal and whatnot,
> but in reality it steals blatantly from European languages and
> ignores the existence of the rest, so it's relatively easy for
> westerners to learn but hard for everybody else.
In addition there's this quality of all "designed" languages - it's too
mechanical and has too few nuances. While English might have a bit many
nuances, these special words and expressions make it a living language
(and there *are* things you can express in a half-sentence of English that
are nearly impossible to describe in under a page if you have to use another
language). Add to that the functionality of sociolects and dialects
(which Esperanto by definition can't have) and you see just *how* poor
a language Esperanto really is.
To me, speaking Esperanto is[0] like programming in BASIC.
Latin is only half as bad, at least it once was a living language and
most European languages build on it. Algol anyone?
Michael
[0] or rather "would be", I do neither.
--
The neat thing about having a swiss-cheese memory like mine is that I can
read what I wrote a few months ago, and giggle at my own jokes. Granted
I don't remember what I write, but the writer's sense of humour is very
compatible with my own. -- Chris Klein
Gordon Tisher
Michael Hinz <mic...@hinz.dyndns.org> writes:
> lo...@cs.utexas.edu (Logan Shaw) writes:
> > Not really. From what I hear, lots of linguists think that while
> > the idea behind Esperanto may be laudable, the actual language is
> > kinda a joke. It claims to be unbiased and universal and whatnot,
> > but in reality it steals blatantly from European languages and
> > ignores the existence of the rest, so it's relatively easy for
> > westerners to learn but hard for everybody else.
To be fair, it was originally designed for Europeans.
> In addition there's this quality of all "designed" languages - it's too
> mechanical and has too few nuances. While English might have a bit many
> nuances, these special words and expressions make it a living language
> (and there *are* things you can express in a half-sentence of English that
> are nearly impossible to describe in under a page if you have to use another
> language). Add to that the functionality of sociolects and dialects
> (which Esperanto by definition can't have) and you see just *how* poor
> a language Esperanto really is.
>
> To me, speaking Esperanto is[0] like programming in BASIC.
>
> [0] or rather "would be", I do neither.
^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is obvious, because your statement above is ludicrous. The
morphology and semantics of Esperanto are so flexible that the range
and depth of nuance possible is enormous. You can use any morpheme of
the language as the root of any part of speech, and you can make
compounds (not only nouns, but any part of speech) out of any number
of morphemes in a semantically transparent way.
It's true that the vocabulary is all European. The grammar, though,
is very different from anything in Europe, except maybe Hungarian (so
I hear; I don't know anything about Hungarian except that it's
supposed to be highly agglutinative).
--
Gordon Tisher <gor...@balafon.net>
Gordon Tisher
> > the idea behind Esperanto may be laudable, the actual language is
> > kinda a joke. It claims to be unbiased and universal and whatnot,
> > but in reality it steals blatantly from European languages and
> > ignores the existence of the rest, so it's relatively easy for
> > westerners to learn but hard for everybody else.
To be fair, it was originally designed for Europeans.
> In addition there's this quality of all "designed" languages - it's too
> mechanical and has too few nuances. While English might have a bit many
> nuances, these special words and expressions make it a living language
> (and there *are* things you can express in a half-sentence of English that
> are nearly impossible to describe in under a page if you have to use another
> language). Add to that the functionality of sociolects and dialects
> (which Esperanto by definition can't have) and you see just *how* poor
> a language Esperanto really is.
>
> To me, speaking Esperanto is[0] like programming in BASIC.
>
> [0] or rather "would be", I do neither.
^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is obvious, because your statement above is ludicrous. The
morphology and semantics of Esperanto are so flexible that the range
and depth of nuance possible is enormous. You can use any morpheme of
the language as the root of any part of speech, and you can make
compounds (not only nouns, but any part of speech) out of any number
of morphemes in a semantically transparent way.
It's true that the vocabulary is all European. The grammar, though,
is very different from anything in Europe, except maybe Hungarian (so
I hear; I don't know anything about Hungarian except that it's
supposed to be highly agglutinative).
To me, speaking Esperanto is like programming in Perl.
--
Gordon Tisher <gor...@balafon.net>
Steve VanDevender
> To me, speaking Esperanto is like programming in Perl.
Now, now, Esperanto may suck, but it can't possibly suck that bad. At
least it has some rules, unlike Perl, and it's much more pronounceable.
--
Steve VanDevender "I ride the big iron" http://jcomm.uoregon.edu/~stevev
ste...@efn.org PGP key fingerprint=929FB79734DF8CC0 210DA447510FF93B
Little things break, circuitry burns / Time flies while my little world turns
Every day comes, every day goes / 100 years and nobody shows -- Happy Rhodes
Paul Tomblin
>Gordon Tisher <gor...@balafon.net> writes:
>> To me, speaking Esperanto is like programming in Perl.
>Now, now, Esperanto may suck, but it can't possibly suck that bad. At
>least it has some rules, unlike Perl, and it's much more pronounceable.
William Shatner never did a movie in Perl, though.
--
Paul Tomblin <ptom...@xcski.com>, not speaking for anybody
'Usenet "belongs" to those who administer the hosts of which it is comprised'
- RFC 1036, draft revision
David Cantrell
said:
>To be fair, it was originally designed for Europeans.
We're Bastards, who said we had to be fair?
--
David Cantrell | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david
Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
Paul Tomblin <ptom...@xcski.com> spake:
> In a previous article, Florian Weps <fw...@pop.agri.ch> said:
>>things I didn't like, and that since our standard MUA supported HTML,
>>he did not see any reason not to use it.
> Actually, HTML is very useful. As a flag to say "you don't need to read
> this email".
Time for another reading from Mark's overkill .procmailrc:
:0:
* ^Content-Type:
* !^Content-Type:.*text/plain
/dev/null
People I know get redirected to my "important" folder before that, but
I ask them to stop the MIME stuff when it happens, and usually they do.
Everyone else, they go to the big bit bucket in the sky. If they can't
send it in a form I want, I don't want it.
Which reminds me... Lately, this moron I pissed off by posting his
charming feedback to me on
<http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/virus_response.html> has been
signing me up for mailing lists. Fortunately, he's too stupid to
realize that most lists require a verification email. Unfortunately,
he's found a few lists that don't, and that don't have functioning
unsubscribes (or ones that I'm quite sure are spam-signups)... Thank
Cthulhu for procmail.
"Return to sender".
--
<a href="http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/"> Mark Hughes </a>
"You have grown old in the fine art of bastardy. My compliments."
-Suresh Ramasubramanian
Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
Zebee Johnstone <ze...@zip.com.au> spake:
> In alt.sysadmin.recovery on Fri, 31 Aug 2001 22:16:29 +0100
> David Cantrell <usenet-...@barnyard.co.uk> wrote:
>>I find it rather disturbing that English is such an unstoppable
>>few weeks ago and he told me that he prefers to write in English as he
>>can express himself better in it. Ugh.
> yourself understood with minimal grammar, and your own language's
> syntax can often be pressed into service.
"English is the language of Norman soldiers trying to make dates with
Anglo-Saxon barmaids, and is no more legitimate than any of the other
results." -H.Beam Piper (from memory; it's in one of the first two Fuzzy
books)
It's a terribly messy language, but the range of expression from
minimal-effort/knowledge to the "all your words are belong to us" level
of synonyms and subtle differences make it pretty much unbeatable.
Esperanto was a good try to fix the grammar and spelling problems, but
it had too small an "installed base" and it was just a bit harder to
adopt new words into. Lojban makes loan-words pretty easy, but it has
no chance at all of achieving world domination. Both have too small a
standard vocabulary, too. English's baroqueness is its great forte.
Studies of pidgin languages have shown that they share a lot of
grammatical features with English, even when neither of the parent
languages have those features; not surprising, since English basically
is an overgrown pidgin language.
> Do a what-if... What would it have taken to have Latin continue as the
> standard cross-cultural language?
It would have had to become a much looser and easier language - and
that happened, as it became Italian, but much too late, and the Italians
never conquered the world again.
> French was more common than English for quite a while, it was the
> "language of diplomacy" till the late 1800s for example. But would a
> bit more French Empire and a bit less British Empire have been enough?
> Would the US have tilted the balance too far?
French is a pretty wretched language to work in; I'm a very poor
French speaker, but it's just purest refined evil. The French language
committee is doing humanity a good service by killing it off (any
language that gets in the hands of a standards body is dead; the corpse
may move for a while longer, but all life has fled).
I suspect that English's viral nature and ease of use would have won
out in the end even if the French Empire had survived.
Gary S. Callison
: Lately, the latest breeding score and celebrations of having cheated
: death for another solar rotation have been replaced by the most
: sickening group aggrandising, with manglers giving their flunkies "Star
: Performer" awards by the bucketload for having learned to wipe
: unassisted.
Wow. You work here too, huh?
The latest Stupid Thing here is a stupid thing on which we are supposed to
affix little stupid stickers we are awarded for doing something stupid,
and a cheap plastic picture frame to put the stupid thing in. I filed the
stupid thing in the 'removed nightly' file, and put a picture of the wife
in the picture frame. See? Turns out it's not a COMPLETE waste of money...
--
Huey
Suresh Ramasubramanian
> committee is doing humanity a good service by killing it off (any
> language that gets in the hands of a standards body is dead; the corpse
> may move for a while longer, but all life has fled).
ANSI for example?
-suresh
Chris Suslowicz
hu...@interaccess.com (Gary S. Callison) wrote:
>...I filed the stupid thing in the 'removed nightly' file,
> and put a picture of the wife in the picture frame.
Wielding the Hammer of Thor, I hope?
Chris.
Lieven Marchand
> French is a pretty wretched language to work in; I'm a very poor
> French speaker, but it's just purest refined evil.
Why? It isn't any harder then Spanish or German. [0]
> The French language committee is doing humanity a good service by
> killing it off (any language that gets in the hands of a standards
> body is dead; the corpse may move for a while longer, but all life
> has fled).
Nah. The language spoken on the streets differs markedly from the
language of the Academie and with time, these changes filter
up. Recently, the use of the circumflex has been made optional for
example, although most educated people continue to use it.
> I suspect that English's viral nature and ease of use would have won
> out in the end even if the French Empire had survived.
I think a form of Broken French would have emerged to replace the
current Broken English that is the default of international
communications. British and Usanian native speakers are harder to
understand by non native speakers then they themselves think because
they use too much colloquialisms and expressions that aren't known by
non native speakers.
[0] Despite my name, it isn't my native language. This isn't about
(another form of) language advocacy, just curiosity.
--
Lieven Marchand <m...@wyrd.be>
She says, "Honey, you're a Bastard of great proportion."
He says, "Darling, I plead guilty to that sin."
Cowboy Junkies -- A few simple words
Charles Herbig
> In a previous article, Steve VanDevender <ste...@efn.org> said:
>>Gordon Tisher <gor...@balafon.net> writes:
>>> To me, speaking Esperanto is like programming in Perl.
>>Now, now, Esperanto may suck, but it can't possibly suck that bad. At
>>least it has some rules, unlike Perl, and it's much more pronounceable.
> William Shatner never did a movie in Perl, though.
Well, hope springs eternal. It's merely a question of the right timing,
some financing, and a little work in toupee technology.
--
Charles Herbig her...@cts.com
Strange Feline Consulting Cat-Herder Extraordinaire
Rev. Chas, Pope of the Temple of Occupied Mexico
P.S. And some daramtic... pauses.
Omri Schwarz
> At 5 Sep 2001 12:37:15 GMT, Paul Tomblin <ptom...@xcski.com> wrote:
> > In a previous article, Steve VanDevender <ste...@efn.org> said:
> >>Gordon Tisher <gor...@balafon.net> writes:
> >>> To me, speaking Esperanto is like programming in Perl.
> >>Now, now, Esperanto may suck, but it can't possibly suck that bad. At
> >>least it has some rules, unlike Perl, and it's much more pronounceable.
>
> > William Shatner never did a movie in Perl, though.
>
> Well, hope springs eternal. It's merely a question of the right timing,
> some financing, and a little work in toupee technology.
How about "The life and times of Larry Wall",
with Shatner as Larry and Al Yankovic as RMS?
Earl Grey
> Thank Cthulhu for procmail.
[NodNodNod]
Was kinda surprised that a whitelist could be set up in one line with a ?
--
They tell me that you're going to try posting to Alt.Sysadmin.Recovery.
It's a Magnificent Idea; A Daring and Splendid Idea! It will be FUN!
Assuming you're not vaporized, dissected, or otherwise killed in an
assortment of supremely horrible and painful ways! Exciting, Isn't It?!
David P. Murphy
> Which reminds me... Lately, this moron I pissed off by posting his
> charming feedback to me on
> <http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/virus_response.html> has been
You misspelled "censoring".
Top Seven Most Amusing Responses To Mark's Faux Virus Warning
========================================================================
#7 guy who thinks Mark is going to worry about people being
scared away from the site
#6 "FIRE IS DETECTED"
#5 guy who scanned for viruses after hearing your .wav
and actually found one, so blamed it on Mark
#4 guy who thinks Mark is promoting some new anti-virus software
#3 "GOD LOVES YOU"
#2 girl who *thanked* Mark because she's going to use it on her boyfriend
#1 Mark is more evil than the lusers who really do pass viruses
I have to admit, though, pulling this stunt using the university's
URL is tempting fate, unless you're pretty tight with TPTB.
ok
dpm
--
David P. Murphy http://www.myths.com/~dpm/
systems programmer ftp://ftp.myths.com
mailto:d...@myths.com (personal)
COGITO ERGO DISCLAMO mailto:Murphy...@emc.com (work)
David P. Murphy
> It's a terribly messy language, but the range of expression from
> minimal-effort/knowledge to the "all your words are belong to us" level
> of synonyms and subtle differences make it pretty much unbeatable.
> Esperanto was a good try to fix the grammar and spelling problems, but
> it had too small an "installed base" and it was just a bit harder to
> adopt new words into. Lojban makes loan-words pretty easy, but it has
> no chance at all of achieving world domination. Both have too small a
> standard vocabulary, too. English's baroqueness is its great forte.
English is to Microsoft Windows as Linux is to Esperanto?
David Cantrell
>At 5 Sep 2001 12:37:15 GMT, Paul Tomblin <ptom...@xcski.com> wrote:
>> In a previous article, Steve VanDevender <ste...@efn.org> said:
>>>Now, now, Esperanto may suck, but it can't possibly suck that bad. At
>>>least it has some rules, unlike Perl, and it's much more pronounceable.
>
>> William Shatner never did a movie in Perl, though.
>
>... It's merely a question of the right timing ...
Something Shatner has not the faintest chance of achieving.
Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
David P. Murphy <d...@myths.com> spake:
> Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes <kami...@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu> wrote:
>> Which reminds me... Lately, this moron I pissed off by posting his
>> charming feedback to me on
>> <http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/virus_response.html> has been
> You misspelled "censoring".
Hmn? Oh, good catch!
> Top Seven Most Amusing Responses To Mark's Faux Virus Warning
>========================================================================
> #7 guy who thinks Mark is going to worry about people being
> scared away from the site
Indeed, at 38,000 hits (not bad for a personal site, I'd say) last
month, I think the danger is minimal.
> #1 Mark is more evil than the lusers who really do pass viruses
This is, of course, true.
"I have found a potentially seriously destructive problem" is my
favorite, though. Ah, that perfect blissful naivete!
> I have to admit, though, pulling this stunt using the university's
> URL is tempting fate, unless you're pretty tight with TPTB.
It's the KUOI-FM Moscow radio station machine
<http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/show.html> run by a friend of
mine (the asui's Indispensable Man), and he and the UI staff are amused
by it, too. Not that I'm at the UI anymore, or have been in several
years, but it's still "home" to me.
--
<a href="http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/"> Mark Hughes </a>
"you must think we are fucking stupid = you need to be shot"
-"Richard Gyles" (gy...@globalnet.co.uk)
Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
Lieven Marchand <m...@wyrd.be> spake:
> kami...@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu (Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes) writes:
>> French is a pretty wretched language to work in; I'm a very poor
>> French speaker, but it's just purest refined evil.
> Why? It isn't any harder then Spanish or German. [0]
The irregular verbs are VERY irregular, and almost every word requires
50-100% more letters than it would in English. It's capable of handling
the same range of complex notions, but they're much more verbose. The
accent marks are usually either inaudible or contradict how the word is
currently pronounced (in English we have stupid spellings left over from
every source language, but the sharp edges get ground off after a few
decades).
Spoken French is admittedly much less painful than the written form.
>> I suspect that English's viral nature and ease of use would have won
>> out in the end even if the French Empire had survived.
> I think a form of Broken French would have emerged to replace the
> current Broken English that is the default of international
> communications.
Could be, though even before the standards body, it was a lot less
natural to just rip off foreign words in French.
> British and Usanian native speakers are harder to
> understand by non native speakers then they themselves think because
> they use too much colloquialisms and expressions that aren't known by
> non native speakers.
That's a large part of its virtue - everyone's native patois gets
incorporated and absorbed, and the next dictionary lists it.
>[0] Despite my name, it isn't my native language. This isn't about
> (another form of) language advocacy, just curiosity.
As long as you're not making puzzle-boxes...
Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
>> Esperanto was a good try to fix the grammar and spelling problems, but
>> it had too small an "installed base" and it was just a bit harder to
>> adopt new words into. Lojban makes loan-words pretty easy, but it has
>> no chance at all of achieving world domination. Both have too small a
>> standard vocabulary, too. English's baroqueness is its great forte.
> English is to Microsoft Windows as Linux is to Esperanto?
No, Linux is actually spreading, and has a chance if M$ keeps doing
stupid shit like <http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1005-200-6881773.html>.
Especially since Linux also absorbs everything it comes in contact with,
from reverse-engineering closed protocols to running classic Unix
software to emulating Windoze...[0]
It's more like 18th C. French:Windows::18th C. English:Linux, except
that that's deeply insulting to the French, and I really am very sorry.
[0] Not that I'm entirely *happy* or even that impressed with Linux, but
it's a successfully viral OS.
Omri Schwarz
> Fri, 07 Sep 2001 15:28:08 -0000 in <tphps8o...@news.supernews.com>,
> David P. Murphy <d...@myths.com> spake:
> > Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes <kami...@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu> wrote:
> >> Esperanto was a good try to fix the grammar and spelling problems, but
> >> it had too small an "installed base" and it was just a bit harder to
> >> adopt new words into. Lojban makes loan-words pretty easy, but it has
> >> no chance at all of achieving world domination. Both have too small a
> >> standard vocabulary, too. English's baroqueness is its great forte.
> > English is to Microsoft Windows as Linux is to Esperanto?
>
> No, Linux is actually spreading, and has a chance if M$ keeps doing
> stupid shit like <http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1005-200-6881773.html>.
And if Linux stays legal..
Mark W. Schumann
Omri Schwarz <ocs...@h-after-ocsc.mit.edu> wrote:
>kami...@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu (Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes) writes:
>
>> Fri, 07 Sep 2001 15:28:08 -0000 in <tphps8o...@news.supernews.com>,
>> David P. Murphy <d...@myths.com> spake:
>> > Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes <kami...@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu> wrote:
>> >> Esperanto was a good try to fix the grammar and spelling problems, but
>> >> it had too small an "installed base" and it was just a bit harder to
>> >> adopt new words into. Lojban makes loan-words pretty easy, but it has
>> >> no chance at all of achieving world domination. Both have too small a
>> >> standard vocabulary, too. English's baroqueness is its great forte.
>> > English is to Microsoft Windows as Linux is to Esperanto?
>>
>> No, Linux is actually spreading, and has a chance if M$ keeps doing
>> stupid shit like <http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1005-200-6881773.html>.
>
>And if Linux stays legal..
\begin[leading]{question}
What do you mean by that, Omri?
\end{question}
Paul Tomblin
Look around you, Mark. Your legal right to reverse engineer or emulate
closed protocols is being eroded in every court in the world, while
patents are being awarded for concepts which are incredibly obvious[1].
The future of networked computing is about to be locked into a box owned
by Microsoft known as .NET and protected by the DMCA. I'd say the odds
are better than even that Linux is going to be increasingly constained by
legal problems.
[1] I independently invented the concept of using XOR to paint a moving
object onto a graphics screen when I was about 16, only to find out years
later that AT&T had a patent on that since before I'd even heard of
computers.
--
Paul Tomblin <ptom...@xcski.com>, not speaking for anybody
I've had a perfectly wonderful evening. But this wasn't it.
-- Groucho Marx, 1890-1977
Omri Schwarz
> In a previous article, cat...@apk.net (Mark W. Schumann) said:
> >In article <octofoi...@no-knife.mit.edu>,
> >Omri Schwarz <ocs...@h-after-ocsc.mit.edu> wrote:
> >>And if Linux stays legal..
> >\begin[leading]{question}
> >What do you mean by that, Omri?
> >\end{question}
>
> Look around you, Mark. Your legal right to reverse engineer or emulate
> closed protocols is being eroded in every court in the world, while
> patents are being awarded for concepts which are incredibly obvious[1].
> The future of networked computing is about to be locked into a box owned
> by Microsoft known as .NET and protected by the DMCA. I'd say the odds
> are better than even that Linux is going to be increasingly constained by
> legal problems.
Also, there's the SSSCA, coming in the next
session of Congress, which makes the DMCA look tame.
> [1] I independently invented the concept of using XOR to paint a moving
> object onto a graphics screen when I was about 16, only to find out years
> later that AT&T had a patent on that since before I'd even heard of
> computers.
--
Mark W. Schumann
Omri Schwarz <ocs...@h-after-ocsc.mit.edu> wrote:
>ptom...@xcski.com (Paul Tomblin) writes:
>
>> In a previous article, cat...@apk.net (Mark W. Schumann) said:
>> >In article <octofoi...@no-knife.mit.edu>,
>> >Omri Schwarz <ocs...@h-after-ocsc.mit.edu> wrote:
>> >>And if Linux stays legal..
>> >\begin[leading]{question}
>> >What do you mean by that, Omri?
>> >\end{question}
>>
>> Look around you, Mark. Your legal right to reverse engineer or emulate
>> closed protocols is being eroded in every court in the world, while
>> patents are being awarded for concepts which are incredibly obvious[1].
>> The future of networked computing is about to be locked into a box owned
>> by Microsoft known as .NET and protected by the DMCA. I'd say the odds
>> are better than even that Linux is going to be increasingly constained by
>> legal problems.
>
>Also, there's the SSSCA, coming in the next
>session of Congress, which makes the DMCA look tame.
Thank you for picking up on the "leading" part of the leading question.
What about this SSSCA makes the DMCA look tame? What could be worse
than DMCA?
Omri Schwarz
Requiring computers hard drives to have digital
rights management shackles on them.
Banning hardware and software that don't.
Such as Linux.
Calle Dybedahl
> That makes me quite happy _not_ to live in the "Land of the free"...
Don't worry, the EU will follow like a good little doggy soon enough.
--
Calle Dybedahl <ca...@lysator.liu.se>
"That's what I get for posting while alive." -- Mike Andrews, A.S.R
Jonathan Guthrie
>>>>>> "Juergen" == Juergen Nieveler <juergen....@web.de> writes:
>> That makes me quite happy _not_ to live in the "Land of the free"...
> Don't worry, the EU will follow like a good little doggy soon enough.
While y'all are preparing for that, I've got my congresscritters'
numbers on speed dial.
--
Jonathan Guthrie (jgut...@brokersys.com)
Sto pro veritate
random
> Omri Schwarz <ocs...@h-after-ocsc.mit.edu> wrote in
> news:oct8zfm...@no-knife.mit.edu:
>
> > Requiring computers hard drives to have digital
> > rights management shackles on them.
> > Banning hardware and software that don't.
> > Such as Linux.
>
> That makes me quite happy _not_ to live in the "Land of the free"...
...and the Home of the Brave New World.
Pardon me, it's time for my soma...
R
Kai Henningsen
> Look around you, Mark. Your legal right to reverse engineer or emulate
> closed protocols is being eroded in every court in the world, while
"Every court of the world"?
Kai
--
http://www.westfalen.de/private/khms/
"... by God I *KNOW* what this network is for, and you can't have it."
- Russ Allbery (r...@stanford.edu)
Lieven Marchand
> 06 Sep 2001 18:16:55 +0200 in <m3bskof...@localhost.localdomain>,
> Lieven Marchand <m...@wyrd.be> spake:
> > kami...@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu (Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes) writes:
> >> French is a pretty wretched language to work in; I'm a very poor
> >> French speaker, but it's just purest refined evil.
> > Why? It isn't any harder then Spanish or German. [0]
>
> The irregular verbs are VERY irregular,
Not really. If you understand the system, there are the weak verbs and
a few categories of strong verbs and then some mavericks. If you don't
go in for the literary or affected tenses it's fairly predictable.
> and almost every word requires 50-100% more letters than it would in
et presque chaque mot demande 50-100% plus de lettres qu'il ferait en
> English.
Anglais.
One letter over that phrase and I didn't have to cheat. YMMV. Latin is
far more compact than both English and French and doesn't come at the
100% mark.
> The accent marks are usually either inaudible or contradict how the
> word is currently pronounced
I'll be very surprised if you can come up with even 5 examples of
that. The circumflexe is a historical curiosity but the other two are
very regular. I can't think of an exception right now.
> (in English we have stupid spellings left over from every source
> language, but the sharp edges get ground off after a few decades).
The problem with English spelling is that you had vowel shifts after
the spelling got frozen and you've never adapted. Most West-European
languages except English have more or less the same values for vowels.
> Could be, though even before the standards body, it was a lot less
> natural to just rip off foreign words in French.
They'll mutate far more rapidly so they're not easily recognized as of
foreign descent. French took the terms for port/starboard and a lot of
other nautical terms from Dutch but they've changed to the point that
a layman won't notice. English keeps a lot of loan words relatively
intact.
> > British and Usanian native speakers are harder to
> > understand by non native speakers then they themselves think because
> > they use too much colloquialisms and expressions that aren't known by
> > non native speakers.
>
> That's a large part of its virtue - everyone's native patois gets
> incorporated and absorbed, and the next dictionary lists it.
I didn't mean that. For instance, John Major used rather a lot of
cricket metaphors I didn't understand.
> >[0] Despite my name, it isn't my native language. This isn't about
> > (another form of) language advocacy, just curiosity.
>
> As long as you're not making puzzle-boxes...
Whoosh. That reference just passed by me.
Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
Lieven Marchand <m...@wyrd.be> spake:
> kami...@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu (Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes) writes:
>> 06 Sep 2001 18:16:55 +0200 in <m3bskof...@localhost.localdomain>,
>> Lieven Marchand <m...@wyrd.be> spake:
>> > (another form of) language advocacy, just curiosity.
>> As long as you're not making puzzle-boxes...
> Whoosh. That reference just passed by me.
The maker of the puzzle-box in the Hellraiser movies was Le Marchand.
Lieven Marchand
> 11 Sep 2001 21:49:54 +0200 in <m34rq9y...@localhost.localdomain>,
> Lieven Marchand <m...@wyrd.be> spake:
> > kami...@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu (Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes) writes:
> >> 06 Sep 2001 18:16:55 +0200 in <m3bskof...@localhost.localdomain>,
> >> Lieven Marchand <m...@wyrd.be> spake:
> >> >[0] Despite my name, it isn't my native language. This isn't about
> >> > (another form of) language advocacy, just curiosity.
> >> As long as you're not making puzzle-boxes...
> > Whoosh. That reference just passed by me.
>
> The maker of the puzzle-box in the Hellraiser movies was Le Marchand.
Never heard of those movies. I'll have to see those then. I suppose he
wasn't a nice character?
Maarten Wiltink
>kami...@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu (Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes) writes:
>> 06 Sep 2001 18:16:55 +0200 in <m3bskof...@localhost.localdomain>,
>> Lieven Marchand <m...@wyrd.be> spake:
<English vs. French>
>> The accent marks are usually either inaudible or contradict how the
>> word is currently pronounced
>
>I'll be very surprised if you can come up with even 5 examples of
>that. The circumflexe is a historical curiosity but the other two are
>very regular. I can't think of an exception right now.
A historical curiosity? Hardly. It comes on vowels when they
eat up the following 's' that wasn't pronounced but modified
the preceding vowel - "lengthening" it, or "softening" it when
consonants followed.
The difference between 'maître' and (AFAIK imaginary) 'maitre'
is subtle, but no more than the difference between 'donnée' and
(also imaginary, TTBOMK) 'donnee'.
Tebrgwrf,
Maarten Wiltink
Zakennayo
>kami...@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu (Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes) writes:
>
>> The maker of the puzzle-box in the Hellraiser movies was Le Marchand.
>
>Never heard of those movies. I'll have to see those then. I suppose he
>wasn't a nice character?
>
Actually, he was. Typical likeable artisan. The puzzlebox was
commisioned by a local nobleman who was into demons and such.
Patrick R. Wade
ISTR a subplot with his descendants trying to unmake or otherwise disable
the Nasty Little Box ; i recall my amusement the first time xscreensaver
showed me iterations of manipulating it...
--
UN-altered REPRODUCTION and DISSEMINATION of this
IMPORTANT Information is ENCOURAGED, ESPECIALLY to COMPUTER
BULLETIN BOARDS.
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
In <9nr3km$6pk$1...@news1.xs4all.nl>, on 09/13/2001
at 10:06 PM, "Maarten Wiltink" <maa...@kittensandcats.net> said:
>The difference between 'ma tre' and (AFAIK imaginary) 'maitre' is
>subtle, but no more than the difference between 'donn e' and (also
>imaginary, TTBOMK) 'donnee'.
You do realize that you don't have a charset, don't you? CT and CTE
headers are your fiends.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
Reply to domain acm dot org user shmuel to contact me.
"He was born with a gift of laughter,
and a sense that the world was mad."
Lieven Marchand
> Lieven Marchand wrote in message ...
> >I'll be very surprised if you can come up with even 5 examples of
> >that. The circumflexe is a historical curiosity but the other two are
> >very regular. I can't think of an exception right now.
>
> A historical curiosity? Hardly. It comes on vowels when they
> eat up the following 's' that wasn't pronounced but modified
> the preceding vowel - "lengthening" it, or "softening" it when
> consonants followed.
Yes, that's the historical usage.
> The difference between 'maître' and (AFAIK imaginary) 'maitre'
> is subtle, but no more than the difference between 'donnée' and
> (also imaginary, TTBOMK) 'donnee'.
As you can read in
http://www.linguistlist.org/~ask-ling/archive-most-recent/msg00324.html,
this isn't the case since 2 centuries. In fact, the Academie now
recommends to drop them completely.
Maarten Wiltink
<3ba1db23$9$fuzhry$mr2...@news.patriot.net>...
>
>In <9nr3km$6pk$1...@news1.xs4all.nl>, on 09/13/2001
> at 10:06 PM, "Maarten Wiltink" <maa...@kittensandcats.net> said:
>
>>subtle, but no more than the difference between 'donnée' and (also
>>imaginary, TTBOMK) 'donnee'.
>
>You do realize that you don't have a charset, don't you? CT and CTE
>headers are your fiends.
Better?
Tebrgwrf,
Maarten Wiltink
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
In <9o59tg$imt$1...@news1.xs4all.nl>, on 09/17/2001
at 06:55 PM, "Maarten Wiltink" <maa...@kittensandcats.net> said:
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>Better?
Probably. I assume that the garbled characters were Dutch, and Latin1
covers that.
Maarten Wiltink
>
>In <9o59tg$imt$1...@news1.xs4all.nl>, on 09/17/2001
> at 06:55 PM, "Maarten Wiltink" <maa...@kittensandcats.net> said:
>
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>
>>Better?
>
>Probably. I assume that the garbled characters were Dutch, and Latin1
>covers that.
Maître. Donnée. No, doesn't look like Dutch to me. You might also
have noticed that I reinstated the offending characters in the
message you quoted, in the double-quoted part that would by now
be quadruple-quoted had you not edited it out. If they weren't
there, it didn't get better.
HTH. HAND.
Tebrgwrf,
Maarten Wiltink
Arvid Grøtting
> Maître. Donnée. No, doesn't look like Dutch to me.
'tis french to me.
(load "rants/isp-going-tits-up")
(load "rants/firewall-admins-blocking-legitimate-nets")
(rants:rant :all-subjects t)
(load recovery/rf/rock-festival)
(recovery:rock :role 'light-tech)
(recovery:weekend :when 'now :beverage 'beer)
--
Maybe everything I say is just a bit too pedantic
Arvid for the romanticism of sig-quoting.
-- Randy the Random, in the Monastery
Lieven Marchand
> (load recovery/rf/rock-festival)
CL-USER 1: Error: variable recovery/rf/rock-festival is unbound
> (recovery:rock :role 'light-tech)
CL-USER 2: Error: no package named "RECOVERY"
Arvid Grøtting
> "Arvid Grųtting" <arv...@regina.uio.no> writes:
>
>> (load recovery/rf/rock-festival)
>
> CL-USER 1: Error: variable recovery/rf/rock-festival is unbound
ITYM:
USER(7): (load recovery/rf/rock-festival)
Error: Attempt to take the value of the unbound variable
`RECOVERY/RF/ROCK-FESTIVAL'.
[condition type: UNBOUND-VARIABLE]
Restart actions (select using :continue):
0: Try evaluating RECOVERY/RF/ROCK-FESTIVAL again.
1: Set the symbol-value of RECOVERY/RF/ROCK-FESTIVAL and use its value.
2: Use a value without setting RECOVERY/RF/ROCK-FESTIVAL.
3: Return to Top Level (an "abort" restart)
4: Abort #<PROCESS Initial Lisp Listener>
[1] USER(8): :cont 2
enter an expression which will evaluate to a new value:
"recovery/rf/rock-festival"
>> (recovery:rock :role 'light-tech)
>
> CL-USER 2: Error: no package named "RECOVERY"
Well. Thankfully, it was a recoverable (!) error here.
--
VBScript is designed to be a secure programming environment. It
lacks various commands that can be potentially damaging if used in
a malicious manner. This added security is critical in enterprise
solutions. -- support.microsoft.com
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
In <9ofb1d$gtd$1...@news1.xs4all.nl>, on 09/21/2001
at 02:15 PM, "Maarten Wiltink" <maa...@kittensandcats.net> said:
>Maītre. Donnée. No, doesn't look like Dutch to me. You might also
>have noticed that I reinstated the offending characters in the
>message you quoted, in the double-quoted
Sigh! Habits are your friends, until they stab you in the back. Yes, I
skipped over the double quoted part. And, yes, with the proper CT and
CTE they display as they ought to.