To Wire an Etherkiller
Tanuki the Raccoon-dog
I was explaining the idea of the Etherkiller to a PFOP[1]
recently; he raised a question which I'm hopeful the Monks
can resolve.
Here in .uk, all standard power-outlets have three pins,
which we know as Live[2], Neutral[3] and Earth[4]. While
it's obvious that the centre pin of the ethercoax should
go to the Live pin, the Question I now place before your
collected wisdom is:-
"should the ethercoax braid be connected to Neutral or Earth, and Why?"
Now, I'm aware that asking such a question of you all is
likely to promote some heated debate; all I ask is that we
should discuss this sensibly, without resorting to cries of
"Earth-wirer! Heretic!! kill -9 him!", or the premature use
of belt-feed weapons....
[1]Pimply Faced Older Person. One of the PFYs where i conslut
is older than i am.
[2]"phase" or "hot"
[3]"Return" or "cold"
[4]"Ground".
--
!Raised Tails! -:Tanuki:-
http://www.canismajor.demon.co.uk/index.htm
"Be Happy. Be root"
Scott Brown
<Tanuki@canis-^Hmajor.da^Hemon.co.uk> wrote:
>Here in .uk, all standard power-outlets have three pins,
>which we know as Live[2], Neutral[3] and Earth[4]. While
>it's obvious that the centre pin of the ethercoax should
>go to the Live pin, the Question I now place before your
>collected wisdom is:-
>
>"should the ethercoax braid be connected to Neutral or Earth, and Why?"
Neutral. That's the usual return path for current from the hot...err,
live wire.
The earth circut is generally a second route back to the neutral
busbar in the circuit panel. If the live wire shorts to a metal
chassis, the earth circuit provides a route back to earth other than
your own water-and-electrolyte-soaked carcass. It's a safety thing.
Since etherkillers are unsafe by design, they have no business being
hooked up to the safety wire.
Mark Lowes
Ross Younger <wr...@cai.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> Scott Brown <s...@xmission.com> rearranged some electrons into article
> <36eec3e7....@news.xmission.com> thus:
[...]
> >The earth circut is generally a second route back to the neutral
> >busbar in the circuit panel.
>
> water pipes or iron stakes in the ground, and it'd be a fair bet that
> commercial setups had similar arrangements. It might be different if
IIRC "neutral" isn't necessarily so, it's more likely to be
(approximately) a 240v differential between Live and Neutral, that
doesn't mean that Neutral is at 0v... of course this could have
interesting results if those without clue were playing assuming
neutral is as advertised >>)
Mark
[1] Any UI is negated by the fact that I might be completely wrong or
out of date.
--
Mark Lowes Home: <ham...@wibble.org> Work: <ma...@ftech.net>
Webmaster, Listmaster, bofh and fluffy cuddly person.
http://hamster.wibble.org/ http://www.wibble.org/
Jasper Janssen
>The earth circut is generally a second route back to the neutral
>busbar in the circuit panel.
Not to mention earth-breakers usually kick in if more than 10 mA flows
from Live to Earth[0]. You don't want your lusers top stop suffering
after taht short a time, do you? You want to at least wait till the
slow-acting main building fuse goes out.
Jasper
[0] Okay, technically it's the difference between Live and Neutral
that counts.
Jake Riddoch
>In article <7cmlcl$s34$2...@flyhmstr.wibble.org>,
>Mark Lowes <ham...@wibble.org> wrote:
>
>> IIRC "neutral" isn't necessarily so, it's more likely to be
>> (approximately) a 240v differential between Live and Neutral, that
>> doesn't mean that Neutral is at 0v... of course this could have
>> interesting results if those without clue were playing assuming
>> neutral is as advertised >>)
>
>when you do power transmission, often you just run the 3 phases,
>saving a lot of copper assuming that the load is balanced enough so
>you just drop the N wire into the ground at both sides.
Neutral is at whatever potential the wire delivers it at which is likely
to be close to earth. Live goes from -300[2] odd to +300 odd because
it's AC.
0/ NMF
1/ ditto
2/ yes, I know it's 240V; 300 odd[4] is the rms[3] value
3/ root mean square
4/ can't remember the exact value and I can't be bothered working it out
from first principles either. In any case, I really don't give a flying
fsck about what the exact value is.
--
Jake Riddoch http://www.larien.demon.co.uk/
"Oh, and I once came *this* close to being sigquoted...damn." Erik in ASR.
Jake Riddoch
thusly:
>My parents (should there be an apostrophe there?)
Yes; it's only when using the possessive form of "it" that you don't use
an apostrophe.
Once more, the English language does something entirely non-logical.
Didn't we already have this thread anyway?
Dan Grabski
> 2/ yes, I know it's 240V; 300 odd[4] is the rms[3] value
> 3/ root mean square
ITYM ``240 is the rms value, 300 odd is the amplitude.'' If this is UI, go
and figure out what the actual amplitude is.
On second thought, no. Don't. Measure it...bonus points for figuring out how
to make accurate voltage measurements with a luser. A minimum of severe
scorching of the luser is a must.
Dan
--
Dan Grabski | gra...@cif.rochester.edu | Running OpenBSD, and proud of it.
"Developing error messages? Doesn't Windows have enough of these
already? And we need a whole fscking book on how to do this?"
-- Derick Siddoway on O'Reilly NT books
'ric Davis
> "should the ethercoax braid be connected to Neutral or Earth, and Why?"
I want to be sure of which bit's which here, but don't the specs for
10Base2 specify that one end of the braid is connected to earth anyway?
--
'ric
Jasper Janssen
>On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, Jasper Janssen wrote:
>> Hmm.. we could burn out the main breaker from our connections quite
>> easily, so that was not really an option...
>You know, we never bothered to think like that. The one time we pulled too
>much during a rehearsal we wrote it down to an aged fuse in the
>substation. Never pulled it again, though (-:
We burned fuses regularly during partys. We came damn close to having
a key to the main breaker cupboard ;)
Anyway, during the aforementioned last party of my high school career,
we managed to load it evenly enough that the fuses got _fscking_ hot,
but didn't give in until after an hour or two. So we changed em twice,
during. I would imagine 6*25Amps or so through 6*16 Amp breakers.. ;=)
>> We never used more than 1 KW bulbs in any of our lamps, that I know of
>> anyways.
>No doubt they were all designed for .5kW lamps anyway... they do run warm,
>though (-:
Well... lamp purchasing usually wasn't handled by us, so we didn't put
too high wattage bulbs in our stuff. I can remember one or two 650W
going into 500W, but that's it.
>Lee 161 isn't quite as nice as Lee 203, for my taste, though. #22 (Rosco)
>wins through on the grounds of sheer tastelessnes.[2]
Rosco? Don't think our suppliers did these. (Or at least, they didn't
give out those free fans like I';ve got for Lee - everything from
polarisation, through silver foil, throughg silver foil with holes, to
*yawn* colors.
>[1] - unless the gaffer tape gave out.
We usually hanged the lamps with those hooks that were designed for
it. There were on or two that didn't work anymore tho. Copious
gaffertape and iron wire helped a lot.
Jasper
Greg Andrews
>Jake Riddoch <ja...@larien.demon.co.uk> was rumored to have said:
>> 2/ yes, I know it's 240V; 300 odd[4] is the rms[3] value
>> 3/ root mean square
>
>ITYM ``240 is the rms value, 300 odd is the amplitude.''
>
ITYM ``240 is the RMS[1] value, 300-odd is the peak value.''
-Greg
[1] A measurement of the power to shock. Sounds like RMS to me. :-)
Charles Cazabon
100...@taurus.cus.cam.ac.uk>:
>Why is it that no schools _ever_ have enough power? Our old college
>concerts somehow had to be lit on 80A of 240v, single phase.
Not all schools are so unfortunate -- before going the computer engineer
route, I took most of a BFA in Film -- our main studio had a patch board
and lighting panel that easily handled 200KW -- I don't know what the max
it could handle was -- I ran out of lamps long before I ran out of current.
Oy, four eighty-column lines and only one full stop. Sorry if I caused any
stack faults.
Charles
--
-----------------------------------------------
Charles Cazabon c_ca...@hotmail.com
Kill -9 them all and let init(8) sort them out.
Dan Grabski
> gra...@cif.rochester.edu (Dan Grabski) writes:
> >ITYM ``240 is the rms value, 300 odd is the amplitude.''
> >
>
> ITYM ``240 is the RMS[1] value, 300-odd is the peak value.''
That's what I meant. ITYTIM ``peak-to-peak'', which would be 600 odd volts.
Which is not what I meant. :)
And anyway, it's really the current that matters. You can get shocked with a
few thousand volts at a low current and suffer no ill effects[0], but get a
few hundred amps through you, it doesn't matter if it's only at 100
volts[1].
Dan
[0] Well, if the current's small enough. Like really small.
[1] As long as it can make the trip through your body. Then your body turns
into a resistor. A big power-dissipating resistor.
Gid Holyoake
100...@taurus.cus.cam.ac.uk>, Frank Lee generously decided to share with
us..
> Why is it that no schools _ever_ have enough power? Our old college
> concerts somehow had to be lit on 80A of 240v, single phase. Of course,
> good lighting[0] required more than that, so we regularly used to nick an
> occasional 20A from the 13A wall sockets[1]. Until it was discovered that
> the fluorescent lighting in the concert hall could provide an extra 40A or
> so, if pushed. Of course, one had to come up with quite convincing reasons
> why an extra cable[2] had suddenly appeared from the isolator, but most
> staff knew better than to ask[3]. Oh, and more than once we had to divert
> power from the English department for an evening or two, but they didn't
> notice.
s/schools/venues/
> [0] - Good lighting being defined as filling[0.1] every available place we
> could put lanterns.
Hmmm.. 80A supply gives you about 20K (well ok.. 19.2K but you can allow
a reasonable margin) which is 40 .5K lanterns.. that's not bad for
general cover..
> [0.1] - College record was 8kW in 7 lanterns on a single upright stand.
<grin>.. this is when you find stands made from 2" pipe very useful.. 6
lanterns on the T-bar and another 6 christmas-tree'd off the upright!
> [1] - Had to alternate 'bright' and 'moody' pieces so things didn't
> overheat.
BTDTGTTS.. also had recourse to replugging during the interval more than
once..
> [2] - Connections like this were, er, disapproved of. In desparation they
> made the Stage Manager sign something to say that he would not allow
> anyone to screw anything into this isolator. So we didn't. [2.1]
<grin>.. why do safety inspectors always turn up while you're jury-
rigging a feed from the dist. box.. sod's law I suppose..
> [2.1] - Gaffer tape. It wasn't exactly reliable, and they weren't pleased,
> but it obeyed the rules...
> [3] - They might be told, but the explanation would go on for hours &
> eventually they would forget what or why they asked.
I spent 13 years doing the lighting for 3 amateur theatre groups in our
local civic theatre.. 40way Strand AMC desk running thirty 1K
channels using 100A from the main supply plus two 32A commandos in the
loft-space linked to my own 16 by 2K dimmer.. perfectly alright for a
bog standard box-set.. a right bugger for the average musical..
The last show I did was the wife's production of PTerry's "Pyramids"
that she adapted for the stage, performed in the dance and drama theatre
at the local college.. computer controlled (based on a BBC Master) 72
channel desk, all 72 channels powered to 2K.. 500 pound budget for the
lighting.. it was fun.. and we still didn't have quite enough channels..
Ho hum.. I want to be let loose in the Corn Exchange.. 200 channel
Sirius computer board with a 600A 3 phase supply.. it's a shame it's
just a bit big (750 seat) and expensive for most amateur productions..
Gid
--
The Most Noble and Exalted Peculiar , Harem Master to Veiled Concubines
Guardian of the Sacred !!!!!'s , Defender of the Temple of AFPdoration
http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~gidnsuzi/ for The Irrelevant Page! MJBC
Charles Cazabon
<7cpoam$ej...@biko.cc.rochester.edu>:
>And anyway, it's really the current that matters. You can get shocked with
>a few thousand volts at a low current and suffer no ill effects[0], but
>get a few hundred amps through you, it doesn't matter if it's only at 100
>volts[1].
It only takes a couple of hundred milliamps to guarantee heart stoppage --
and significantly less will work on most people in many circumstances.
Frequency can also play a part -- AC passes through human tissue much
better than an equivalent DC source.
>[1] As long as it can make the trip through your body. Then your body
>turns into a resistor. A big power-dissipating resistor.
A Steam-Emitting-Resistor, perhaps?
Måns Nilsson
>In , qdt...@babbsan.ericsson.se (Mĺns Nilsson) wrote:
>
>>Brings back my life on the road. I will never forget the expression of the
>>city electrical company staff when we told them that our main dimmer wanted
>>330A per phase. Now. Slo-blo. And then there is a secondary dimmer gobbling
>>up a 125A three-phase feed (with a few of those waggly mirror thingamajings).
>>
>>And the sound system. 63A three-phase. From the same distro box, Please.
>
>I would expect any power company to want advance notice to run those
>kind of cables.
They had been given such. In bold writing. Just refused to believe.
>>They did not believe me. Actually they showed up the gig day to verify,
>>with a clamp meter. This is the second facial expression I will not forget.
>
>I can imagine. What type of gig? (as in, what band(s)?)
A 'we did not get in the "real" Eurovision so we need another festival' type
of gig. Nothing interesting at all. But large budget. Lots of work. Lots of
nosleep, lots of party afterwards.
>>Then they did _not_ disconnect us. Yours truly had to go down in the distro
>>and unbolt those fat cables all on my own. Nervous I was. Yes.
>
>Yick. And no weenie stuff where there's a main switch you can throw
>first, right?
No, I am not that stupid. Electricity in .se is normally a very safe and sound
thing, as a thread here some months ago lined out. I had the luxury of having
multiple switches and fuses between me and the mains. Size 00 knife fuses in
'disconnect-on-operate' holders and the lot. Plus of course open copper bars
with 405 volts on. Life on the edge is fun. The largest thing worrying me was
that I had been awake for some 22 hours at that time, so I had dizzyness
tendencies...
--
Mĺns Nilsson Unixtekniker.
Not speaking for Ericsson, unless stated so.
Måns Nilsson
>In , Frank Lee <rl...@cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>>Why is it that no schools _ever_ have enough power?
>
>
>>Our old college
>>concerts somehow had to be lit on 80A of 240v, single phase.
>
>to dso this to the new packs, but one of the old ones could be
>converted to single-phase if necessary. "Don't turn on all the lights
>at once, okay?" (6* 2KW > 16A@240...)
My gymnasium[0] got refurbished. We got one 63A fed dimmer, one separate
63A for extras, and one for the theatre at large. I remember having to
calculate extensively to make room for all stuff in that. Hybris? Me??
<snip>
>Jasper "Steel blue is a nice filter, IIRC" Janssen
Congo blue along with some Chromoid 119, if I may please.
Now, OTOH, the only thing lights are for is to illuminate the real players,
ie the sound system.
--
Måns Nilsson Unixtekniker.
Not speaking for Ericsson, unless stated so.
[0]Would be senior high school for you others. Not stinking hall for
fascist athletic exercises. Actually it is the place where one is nude.
(if you translate the greek word 'gymnasium')
Måns Nilsson
>Greg Andrews <ge...@shell1.ncal.verio.com> was rumored to have said:
>> gra...@cif.rochester.edu (Dan Grabski) writes:
>> >ITYM ``240 is the rms value, 300 odd is the amplitude.''
>> >
>>
>> ITYM ``240 is the RMS[1] value, 300-odd is the peak value.''
>
>That's what I meant. ITYTIM ``peak-to-peak'', which would be 600 odd volts.
>Which is not what I meant. :)
>
>few thousand volts at a low current and suffer no ill effects[0], but get a
>few hundred amps through you, it doesn't matter if it's only at 100
>volts[1].
Which awakes my favourite subject in power distribution: 'merkin mains grids.
Why is it so hard to understand that 230 volts (or even 405 from the threephase)
is just marginally more dangerous than 120? Why is it so hard to understand that
electricity kills by current and not voltage??
Many a 'merkin roadie has been educated by yours truly into the .se way of doing
things, ie good and with high voltage. I once had to supply an entire big band
with 110VAC to power their lamps in the note lights. Too afraid of 220 to use
the house note lights.... Fscking lusers.
The entertainment and live music industry has its own set of lusers, and other
known roles:
Luser= Musician
PHB= Promotor
BOFH= BSEFH[0]
FMP[1]= Lighting people
PFY= 'gopher'
--
Måns Nilsson Unixtekniker.
Not speaking for Ericsson, unless stated so.
[0] BSoundEngineerFH
[1] Fscking Mac Primadonnas[1.1]
[1.1] Yes, lighting people always use macs. They even sound like
ad bureau people when talking computers. Then they always fail
at the main task, ie illuminating loudspeakers. And I have had to
wire their current-gobbling dimmers more than one time.
http://www.avolites.com/products/tvdim.html
Jasper Janssen
>On Wed, 17 Mar 1999 15:18:14 GMT, Jasper Janssen wrote:
>>I would expect any power company to want advance notice to run those
>>kind of cables.
>
>They had been given such. In bold writing. Just refused to believe.
So, did they call you to at least verify the letter was genuine, stuff
like that? Just saying "Ooh, someone wants to draw $bignum in power,
and $2*bignum in fees for laying those cables. He's just a kid playing
a joke, let's file it in the circular file" doesn't sound like good
business practie to me.
>A 'we did not get in the "real" Eurovision so we need another festival' type
>of gig. Nothing interesting at all. But large budget. Lots of work. Lots of
>nosleep, lots of party afterwards.
Ah, that. Maybe I should apply to Pinkpop/Dynamo/Lowlands in one of
the next few years. Should be fun. ((some of) those are a hell of a
lot larger than _your_ puny festival! Ha! Ha! Ha!)
>>Yick. And no weenie stuff where there's a main switch you can throw
>>first, right?
>
>No, I am not that stupid. Electricity in .se is normally a very safe and sound
>thing, as a thread here some months ago lined out. I had the luxury of having
>multiple switches and fuses between me and the mains. Size 00 knife fuses in
>'disconnect-on-operate' holders and the lot. Plus of course open copper bars
>with 405 volts on. Life on the edge is fun. The largest thing worrying me was
>that I had been awake for some 22 hours at that time, so I had dizzyness
>tendencies...
Hmm. Yes, that sounds unnerving. Couldn't you get a luser to do it?
Jasper
Jasper Janssen
<UI snipped>
>Once more, the English language does something entirely non-logical.
>
>Didn't we already have this thread anyway?
Probably. By the way, you just gave UI.
Jasper
Jasper Janssen
>http://www.avolites.com/products/tvdim.html
Ooooohhhh.. Is that 25/50 amps per channel? I personally never handled
more than a Sirius 24 driving 2*6 channels 2 KW, and 12 channels
switchpack.. Please don't mind the drool, but don't step in it either
unless you like electrocution.
Jasper
Chris Edsall
Jasper Janssen <spa...@janssen.dynip.com> wrote:
> Jasper "Steel blue is a nice filter, IIRC" Janssen
I recall using a lot of Medium Bastard Amber. I think the fact that I was 15
at the time had a lot to do with it.
Chris Edsall
Recovered stage lighting tech
</delurk>
Måns Nilsson
>In , qdt...@babbsan.ericsson.se (Mĺns Nilsson) wrote:
>So, did they call you to at least verify the letter was genuine, stuff
>like that? Just saying "Ooh, someone wants to draw $bignum in power,
>and $2*bignum in fees for laying those cables. He's just a kid playing
>a joke, let's file it in the circular file" doesn't sound like good
>business practie to me.
No, they just did not believe that an Avo rack could take all that power.
They had expected like 6 or so smaller pacKs.
>Ah, that. Maybe I should apply to Pinkpop/Dynamo/Lowlands in one of
>the next few years. Should be fun. ((some of) those are a hell of a
>lot larger than _your_ puny festival! Ha! Ha! Ha!)
Oh. I can see where this goes. We stop now, right ? ;-)
>>No, I am not that stupid. Electricity in .se is normally a very safe and sound
>>thing, as a thread here some months ago lined out. I had the luxury of having
>>multiple switches and fuses between me and the mains. Size 00 knife fuses in
>>'disconnect-on-operate' holders and the lot. Plus of course open copper bars
>>with 405 volts on. Life on the edge is fun. The largest thing worrying me was
>>that I had been awake for some 22 hours at that time, so I had dizzyness
>>tendencies...
>
>Hmm. Yes, that sounds unnerving. Couldn't you get a luser to do it?
Lusers in switch boxes will fry equipment. While also frying the luser might
make some amends, it does not quite make up for lost property.
--
Mĺns Nilsson Unixtekniker.
Mike Andrews
: And anyway, it's really the current that matters. You can get shocked with a
: few thousand volts at a low current and suffer no ill effects[0], but get a
: few hundred amps through you, it doesn't matter if it's only at 100
: volts[1].
The past three Wednesdays I've been in physical therapy, having my
left index finger worked on after a really nasty fall in which _all_
my no-longer-inconsiderable weight came down axially on the finger
aforesaid.
Twenty minutes of each session has involved iontophoresis of
steroids into the joints and tendons of that finger. This
involves:
o putting a steroid-impregnated conductive pad on the finger;
o putting a conductive pad on the wrist;
o putting a constant-current DC power supply across the two
pads, negative lead to the finger and positive lead to the
wrist;
o setting the power supply to 35 mA and setting the timer.
Folks, I'm here to tell you that 35mA into the finger plain fscking
HURTS! I think they go to 50 or 75 mA.
Now If I can get some of those gadgets, hook 'em up to the lusers,
and rig 'em for radio triggering, I'm home free. Probably right across
the thorax or the temples would be best.
Mike
mand...@odot.org
Jasper Janssen
>No, they just did not believe that an Avo rack could take all that power.
>They had expected like 6 or so smaller pacKs.
Ah, in that sense. So they had 3 or so with smaller currentsizes, that
were no doubt not in sync enough to simply wire together?
>Oh. I can see where this goes. We stop now, right ? ;-)
Music festival DSW. Is that a new one?
>Lusers in switch boxes will fry equipment. While also frying the luser might
>make some amends, it does not quite make up for lost property.
Werll, couldn't you disconnect the cable at the other end first? While
a 300 A 3 phase is undoubtedly expensive, I have a feeling the rack is
a hell of a lot more expensive - so if you only have the cable to
worry about..
Jasper
'ric Davis
> Hmmm, and at home, the bofhette installed trips rather than fuses in the
> distribution panel - they tend to be _very_ sensitive and trip whenever
> a bulb blows.
I've just ripped out a load of trips and replaced them with fuses,
trips are too touchy for my taste.
--
'ric
Jake Riddoch
>Greg Andrews <ge...@shell1.ncal.verio.com> was rumored to have said:
>> gra...@cif.rochester.edu (Dan Grabski) writes:
>> >ITYM ``240 is the rms value, 300 odd is the amplitude.''
>>
>> ITYM ``240 is the RMS[1] value, 300-odd is the peak value.''
>
>That's what I meant. ITYTIM ``peak-to-peak'', which would be 600 odd volts.
>Which is not what I meant. :)
Dictionay lists amplitude as "maximum displacement from the zero or mean
position of a periodic motion". Sounds about right, except there isn't
motion per se. However, it also lists "magnitude" as a possible, so
amplitude would be correct as well.
>And anyway, it's really the current that matters. You can get shocked with a
>few thousand volts at a low current and suffer no ill effects[0], but get a
>few hundred amps through you, it doesn't matter if it's only at 100
>volts[1].
Since, in most cases, V=IR and R tends to be constant, I rises in
relation to V so the high voltage kills you by causing a high current.
I do not have any intention of collecting empirical evidence for this
due to the law regarding lusers as "people" and the killing of them as a
crime.
Greg Andrews
>Greg Andrews <ge...@shell1.ncal.verio.com> was rumored to have said:
>> gra...@cif.rochester.edu (Dan Grabski) writes:
>> >ITYM ``240 is the rms value, 300 odd is the amplitude.''
>> >
>>
>> ITYM ``240 is the RMS[1] value, 300-odd is the peak value.''
>
>That's what I meant. ITYTIM ``peak-to-peak'', which would be 600 odd volts.
>Which is not what I meant. :)
>
No, had I thought you were talking about peak-to-peak,
I would have *written* ``peak-to-peak''.
240 VAC RMS == 339 VAC Peak == 678 VAC Peak-to-Peak.
-Greg
Jasper Janssen
>240 VAC RMS == 339 VAC Peak == 678 VAC Peak-to-Peak.
339 V Peak == 339 V amplitude.
I somehow don't think Peak and P-to-P need VAC. It's implied.
Jasper
Greg Andrews
>In , ge...@shell1.ncal.verio.com (Greg Andrews) wrote:
>
>>240 VAC RMS == 339 VAC Peak == 678 VAC Peak-to-Peak.
>
>339 V Peak == 339 V amplitude.
>
IIRC, ``amplitude'' isn't limited to meaning only the peak
voltage. The phrase "the waveform has an amplitude of 240
Volts RMS" is perfectly acceptable usage.
>
>I somehow don't think Peak and P-to-P need VAC. It's implied.
>
In most cases it is implied. I was just being very precise.
-Greg
Juhana...@oulu.fi
> Yeah, but we're working with ~230V over in Yurp, so we need proper
> safety precautions - a short over here will dump something like 4 times
> the power for the same current. We can get unfused plugs, but by
> default, they have a fuse. Since most new electrical appliances in .uk
> come with the plug, it's really not much of a problem. (Apart from the
> fact that the plugs are a lot larger than they really need to be.)
Note that this varies by country. The above is .uk practice. .fi
practice puts the fuses (or breakers, which are common in new
installations) in the panel. Fuse sizes (for 1-phase circuits) used in
homes go from 6 to 16 amps, with 10 A being the most common
size. Also, the plug, which is one of 2 or 3 standard models widely
used in Europe, is usually one piece with the cord, or at least comes
preinstalled. The plugs are pretty much the right size, and they have
finally learned to make extension cords with the sockets oriented
diagonally so it's possible to plug in more than two computer cords
with right-angle plugs.
> Hmmm, and at home, the bofhette installed trips rather than fuses in the
> distribution panel - they tend to be _very_ sensitive and trip whenever
> a bulb blows.
Interesting. I've never seen a breaker trip due to a bulb blowing.
--
Juhana Siren, System Administrator/Extrabit Oy | Personal: Juhana...@oulu.fi
*Any opinions above are mine, not Extrabit's.* | Work: Juhana...@extrabit.fi
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< WARNING * END OF TEXT * STOP READING HERE >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Jasper Janssen
>IIRC, ``amplitude'' isn't limited to meaning only the peak
>voltage. The phrase "the waveform has an amplitude of 240
>Volts RMS" is perfectly acceptable usage.
Color me chastened.
Sure it shouldn't be "The waveform has a RMS amplitude of..etc.", if
you're being pedantic?
Jasper
Joe Bednorz
>The entertainment and live music industry has its own set of lusers, and other
>known roles:
>
>Luser= Musician
>PHB= Promotor
>BOFH= BSEFH[0]
>FMP[1]= Lighting people
You mean the Shaft of Darkness Society? See <mumble> Green's
_Art Of Coarse Acting_. Loaned my copy to a High School
Director. His first comment was that none of his actors
should be allowed to see it.
If you've done theatre at all, you will probably enjoy this book
(if you can find a copy). (No, you can't borrow mine. It and
my copy of _Letters From An Actor_ must be read in my presence.)
One of the funniest books ever. Up there with
_M*A*S*H_ by Joe Hooker,
_Bored of the Rings_ by Harvard Lampoon,
_Three Men In A Boat_ by Jerome K. Jerome,
_A Fine and Pleasant Misery_ by Patrick F. McManus.
All of these books caused me to break out in uncontrollable
life-threatening howls of laughter which caused people
to attempt to come to my aid....
The author of _The Art of Coarse Acting_ also did another
book (mbbe 2nd ed?) called _The Coarse Actor's Handbook_
(or vice versa), unfortunately, Amazon claims never to
have heard of it.
(Those of you not continuing in the Coarse Acting thread
please change the subject to Life-Threateningly Funny Books
(and the people who love them, next on Donahue.))
--
Joe "Parenthetical Comments Are My Life" Bednorz
The most depressing thing in the world is activity without insight.
Jeff Shultz
:>One of the funniest books ever. Up there with
:>_M*A*S*H_ by Joe Hooker,
ITYM Richard Hooker...
Jeff Shultz
Here an OS, there an OS... I need more computers.
Malcolm Ray
wrote:
>On Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:43:53 GMT, Joe Bednorz wrote:
>:>One of the funniest books ever. Up there with
>
>:>_M*A*S*H_ by Joe Hooker,
>
>ITYM Richard Hooker...
Looks like Joe has trouble with hookers...
--
Malcolm Ray University of London Computer Centre
Lionel
forum, Tanuki the Raccoon-dog <Tanuki@canis-^Hmajor.da^Hemon.co.uk>
said:
>
>I was explaining the idea of the Etherkiller to a PFOP[1]
>recently; he raised a question which I'm hopeful the Monks
>can resolve.
>
>Here in .uk, all standard power-outlets have three pins,
>which we know as Live[2], Neutral[3] and Earth[4]. While
>it's obvious that the centre pin of the ethercoax should
>go to the Live pin, the Question I now place before your
>collected wisdom is:-
>
>"should the ethercoax braid be connected to Neutral or Earth, and Why?"
If you insist on making the core Active, you would want the braid to be
Neutral. Earth is a safety ground, which is the last thing you want when
you're trying to electrify lusers.
OTOH, I would be tempted to wire the shield to Active, & the core to
Neutral, on the basis that it will then zap the lusers if they touch the
connecters. It would also (probably) maximise the NIC damage at the
other end of the circuit.
Will Rose
: In article <36f2345e...@news.mindspring.com>,
: Joe Bednorz <jbed...@mindspring.com> wrote:
: : _Three Men In A Boat_ by Jerome K. Jerome,
: :
: : [...] uncontrollable life-threatening howls of laughter [...]
: Connie Willis's book _To Say Nothing of the Dog_ has just been
: added to your "must read" list.
Competent, but uninspired. It's difficult to beat JKJ on his
own ground. However, Bellwether's extremely funny, and Doomsday
Book a must-read. The quality of her books seems curiously uneven.
Paul Mc Auley
| Scott Brown <s...@xmission.xxx.com> wrote:
| > On Tue, 16 Mar 1999 20:00:18 +0000, Tanuki the Raccoon-dog
| > <Tanuki@canis-^Hmajor.da^Hemon.co.uk> wrote:
| >>"should the ethercoax braid be connected to Neutral or Earth, and Why?"
| > Neutral. That's the usual return path for current from the hot...err,
| > live wire.
| And if an earth-leak detector is installed, the power will immediately go
| down when any current flows through the earth wire.
The way I heard it told, the ELCB detects a discrepency between the
current flowing through the neutral and live halves of the circuit (this
is why it is possible to trip them with the lights. The earth wire is
usually to guard against those cases where it is conceivable that a live
wire could come into contact with the chassis of an appliance (e.g. worn
insulation) said item into a somewhat more tamperproof device. Having the
earth wire connected to the chasis means that the leakage that trips the
breaker is not through the first person to come within range.
Paul.
--
--- Paul Mc Auley <pmca...@iol.ie>
--
- What the gods would destroy they first
submit to an IEEE standards committee.
Greg Andrews
Well, I see that as merely rearranging the words. Doesn't confer
any extra meaning or a more specific meaning to me.
-Greg
Måns Nilsson
>In , qdt...@babbsan.ericsson.se (Mĺns Nilsson) wrote:
>
>>No, they just did not believe that an Avo rack could take all that power.
>>They had expected like 6 or so smaller pacKs.
>
>Ah, in that sense. So they had 3 or so with smaller currentsizes, that
>were no doubt not in sync enough to simply wire together?
Oh no, it was simpler than that. There was one large supply. They just
did not think it was possible for the dimmer rack to gob up all the juice.
And so, cautious as they were, the first refused. We got them over it.
>
>>Oh. I can see where this goes. We stop now, right ? ;-)
>Music festival DSW. Is that a new one?
Guess so.
>>Lusers in switch boxes will fry equipment. While also frying the luser might
>>make some amends, it does not quite make up for lost property.
>
>Werll, couldn't you disconnect the cable at the other end first? While
>a 300 A 3 phase is undoubtedly expensive, I have a feeling the rack is
>a hell of a lot more expensive - so if you only have the cable to
>worry about..
No, it is what happens after a luser has connected the phases but not the
neutral that worries me. Or so. BTDT.
void
wrote:
>
>The entertainment and live music industry has its own set of lusers, and other
>known roles:
>
>Luser= Musician
>PHB= Promotor
>BOFH= BSEFH[0]
>FMP[1]= Lighting people
Yes, but some musicians are really BSEFHs at heart[0]. Whereas you don't
really find too many lusers who have the BOFH nature.
[0] Not even to mention the musicians who happen to be BOFHs. I wouldn't
arrogate the BOFH designation to myself, but I do play music, and I
know several other musician sysadmins.
--
Ben
"You have your mind on computers, it seems."
void
wrote:
>
>You mean the Shaft of Darkness Society? See <mumble> Green's
>_Art Of Coarse Acting_. Loaned my copy to a High School
>Director. His first comment was that none of his actors
>should be allowed to see it.
>
>If you've done theatre at all, you will probably enjoy this book
>(if you can find a copy).
What's it about?
--
Ben, who hasn't done any theater in years and years
Måns Nilsson
Yes, but we all are somebody elses lusers. If you ride the $PUBLICTRANSPORT
you are a luser to the driver.
What we are IRL is completely different from what we do in such a situation.
I am a luser when it comes to the billing system or the Novell servers at
work, while those who admin these services are DNS/firewall lusers under
my command. We all luse to the BRouterAdminFH. If you play music in my sound
system you are my luser.
Musicians who are BSEFHen at heart are of course not lusers. Some OTOH believe
they know more than you because they _are_ musicians, and so are closer to
the heart of it all. Like programmers trying to sysadmin. Those are real PITA.
Thankfully they are easily fooled by some simple tricks, like
tweaking a unused channel on the desk in response to a request.
--
Måns Nilsson Unixtekniker.
mort+...@dtek.chalmers.se
>[0] Not even to mention the musicians who happen to be BOFHs. I wouldn't
> arrogate the BOFH designation to myself, but I do play music, and I
> know several other musician sysadmins.
*raises his hand*
//Christer, a cornet[0] player who'd like to get his hands on a good
flugelhorn some day. And a trombone. And a slide trumpet. And an Eb
cornet. And...
[0] Used to be a Euphinium player, but I can't afford to buy one...
--
| Fjällgatan 20 | Phone: Home +46 (0)31 7049805 CTH: +46 (0)31 7725431 |
| S-413 17 Göteborg | Email: mo...@cd.chalmers.se Cell: +46 (0)707 535757 |
| Sweden | WWW: http://www.cd.chalmers.se/~mort/ |
"An NT server can be run by an idiot, and usually is." -- Tom Holub, a.h.b-o-i
Tanuki the Raccoon-dog
mort+...@dtek.chalmers.se scrobe:
>//Christer, a cornet[0] player who'd like to get his hands on a good
>flugelhorn some day. And a trombone. And a slide trumpet. And an Eb
>cornet. And...
>[0] Used to be a Euphinium player, but I can't afford to buy one...
Is that anything like a Delphonium?
--
!Raised Tails! -:Tanuki:-
http://www.canismajor.demon.co.uk/index.htm
"Nudity is only skin-deep"
Desperately Seeking Cluedom
>And anyway, it's really the current that matters. You can get shocked with a
>few thousand volts at a low current and suffer no ill effects[0], but get a
>few hundred amps through you, it doesn't matter if it's only at 100
>volts[1].
10mA is a sort of threshhold figure. That's not really that small.
>[1] As long as it can make the trip through your body. Then your body turns
>into a resistor. A big power-dissipating resistor.
Yeah. it's about 500kOhm along each arm and each leg; however there's a sort of
150V threshhold needed to break skin potential.
void
wrote:
>
>Yes, but we all are somebody elses lusers. If you ride the $PUBLICTRANSPORT
>you are a luser to the driver.
I don't buy that. If you litter on the tracks, you are a luser to the
driver. If you pay attention to the public transport system and your
(userly) role in it and respect the other passengers and the staff, I
don't see how you could be considered a luser[0].
>Musicians who are BSEFHen at heart are of course not lusers. Some OTOH believe
>they know more than you because they _are_ musicians, and so are closer to
>the heart of it all. Like programmers trying to sysadmin. Those are real PITA.
There's a third category, besides cryptoB*FH and luser: the musician or
user who knows or can be taught how to work a B*FH.
When I had a small and consistent set of users, we got along fine for the
most part, because they knew their own limits. If they got out of their
depth in describing a problem, they'd shut up and let me ask questions, or
assist me in reproducing the problem.
I'd much rather work from a correct problem description than a specific
one; it's much easier to fill in details than it is to figure out that the
person you're talking to doesn't mean what they're saying[1].
How on earth did I get here? Oh. Musicians. Yes, they are a
$DEITY-damned pain in the ass, and you don't even need to be in a
luser/technician relationship with them to experience it -- just try to
get together and make music with the same N people once a week and see how
frustrated you get, how fast.
[0] Although everyone acts like a luser now and again when outside their
field of competence -- you can't know *everything*.
[1] Not to mention you then have to figure out what they *do* mean. And
some or all your intermediate conclusions are suddenly wrong.
--
Ben
Jasper Janssen
>Yeah. it's about 500kOhm along each arm and each leg; however there's a sort of
>150V threshhold needed to break skin potential.
I doubt it, or .us would have it safe to touch the naked electricity
at 110V, 60 HZ. Where in fact, according to my info, 110V @ 60 Hz is
_more_ deadly than 240V @ 50 Hz. 60 hz is a _real_ bastard.
Jasper
Ben
writes:
> In <slrn7fdcnh...@interport.net> fl...@interport.net (void) writes:
> >[0] Not even to mention the musicians who happen to be BOFHs. I wouldn't
> > arrogate the BOFH designation to myself, but I do play music, and I
> > know several other musician sysadmins.
>
> *raises his hand*
>
> //Christer, a cornet[0] player who'd like to get his hands on a good
> flugelhorn some day. And a trombone. And a slide trumpet. And an Eb
> cornet. And...
> [0] Used to be a Euphinium player, but I can't afford to buy one...
Violin[1], Viola[2], Piano, Harmonicas, Didgeridoo[3], and the spoons[4].
[1] Although if I ever need some ready cash, it'll be the first to
go and might buy me a used car.
[2] _No_ jokes, on pain of pain of death
[3] Everyone's got to do something out of the ordinary[4]
[4] More than once sometimes
Ben
--
"I'm sorry, you must be confusing | B...@lspace.org, B...@gits.co.uk
me with someone who gives a damn." | http://bofh.gits.co.uk <- PARODY
Abbot, Cambridge Chapter of the Monks of Cool since MCMXCVI a.d.
Måns Nilsson
>On 23 Mar 1999 13:19:25 GMT, Måns Nilsson <qdt...@babbsan.ericsson.se>
>wrote:
>>
>>Yes, but we all are somebody elses lusers. If you ride the $PUBLICTRANSPORT
>>you are a luser to the driver.
>
>I don't buy that. If you litter on the tracks, you are a luser to the
>driver. If you pay attention to the public transport system and your
>(userly) role in it and respect the other passengers and the staff, I
>don't see how you could be considered a luser[0].
>
>>Musicians who are BSEFHen at heart are of course not lusers. Some OTOH believe
>>they know more than you because they _are_ musicians, and so are closer to
>>the heart of it all. Like programmers trying to sysadmin. Those are real PITA.
>
>There's a third category, besides cryptoB*FH and luser: the musician or
>user who knows or can be taught how to work a B*FH.
Yes. The well-behaved Customer. Rare species.
>How on earth did I get here? Oh. Musicians. Yes, they are a
>$DEITY-damned pain in the ass, and you don't even need to be in a
>luser/technician relationship with them to experience it -- just try to
>get together and make music with the same N people once a week and see how
>frustrated you get, how fast.
BTDT...
>[0] Although everyone acts like a luser now and again when outside their
> field of competence -- you can't know *everything*.
Which was what i meant, actually. I luse completely at making music.
Making music loud is another thing, however.
And even if I am in possession of a (photo-equipped[0]) drivers license
entitling me to drive a bus, I know that I would luse at driving a bus
in public transportation.
--
Måns Nilsson Unixtekniker.
Not speaking for Ericsson, unless stated so.
[0] OBThreadcrossover. My first, iirc.
Kirrily 'Skud' Robert
<Tanuki@canis-^Hmajor.da^Hemon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <7d8je5$h7h$1...@nyheter.chalmers.se>,
>mort+...@dtek.chalmers.se scrobe:
>>flugelhorn some day. And a trombone. And a slide trumpet. And an Eb
>>cornet. And...
>>[0] Used to be a Euphinium player, but I can't afford to buy one...
>Is that anything like a Delphonium?
Argh!!! A.A. Milne flashbacks! To my *least* favourite poem. You
bastard.
K.
(it's flashback day)
--
Kirrily 'Skud' Robert - http://netizen.com.au/
I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them.
Jasper Janssen
>I'd guess that 110V RMS peaks at a little above 150V. So in less than
155.5634919...
>the first 0.01 second, your skin threshold would have been passed.
Of course. I (ObThreadCrossover) obviously luse at theoretical
electrics.
Jasper
Jasper Janssen
>My father claims that the voltage difference between Neutral and Earth
>is enough to charge small (AA) batteries. I reckon you could do it if
>you have wire fuses, but that the current would trip a modern circuit
>breaker. S'pose I should try it some day.
Actually, wire or modern fuses don't matter. It's the
ObEarthCircuitBreakers you have to worry about, and those can go with
either type of fuses.
Jasper
mort+...@dtek.chalmers.se
>In article <7d8je5$h7h$1...@nyheter.chalmers.se>,
>mort+...@dtek.chalmers.se scrobe:
Argh! I got so occupied with getting the end typed correctly so I
missed doing the regular spell check. Oh well. What the hell is a
Delphonium supposed to be? An Oracle-based euphonium?
//Christer, found a beautiful flugelhorn on eBay, but it's not tuned
in Bb...:-/
Peter da Silva
Kirrily 'Skud' Robert <skud+...@netizen.com.au> wrote:
>Argh!!! A.A. Milne flashbacks! To my *least* favourite poem. You
>bastard.
Oh no, I mean the elephone got tangled in the telephone?
WONDERFUL poem, if that's the one!
(I just did a search for it and found that Altavista thinks that "elephant
and telephone" has something to do with Bonsai. Didn't find it, but I got
this page...
http://www.usyd.edu.au/anaes/rpa/Loadsmanextras/heffalump/heffalump.html)
--
In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva <pe...@baileynm.com>
`-_-' "Heb jij vandaag je wolf al geaaid?"
'U`
"Tell init(8) to lock-n-load, we're goin' zombie slaying!"
Eric The Read
> In article <7d8je5$h7h$1...@nyheter.chalmers.se> mort+...@dtek.chalmers.se
> writes:
> Violin[1], Viola[2], Piano, Harmonicas, Didgeridoo[3], and the spoons[4].
Piano, Trumpet, Trombone, Euphonium, Tuba, Saxophone[5], Guitar(badly),
Electric Bass(not quite so badly), Comb and Paper, Kazoo, Gargle[7].
> [2] _No_ jokes, on pain of pain of death
Besides, viola jokes are redundant. :)
A trombone joke:
Q: What's the difference between a frog in a car and a trombonist in a
car?
A: The frog's probably going to a gig.
*cue rim shot*
Thank you, thank you all, no applause please, just throw money.
-=Eric, who just now saw BOTH jokes in that last one he told. OUCH,
that's bad (but only if you're a suthn'r).
[1,3,4] NMF
[5] I played bari and tenor, but if you can play one you can play 'em
all.[6]
[6] Except maybe soprano; those are a bit odd.
[7] If you have to ask, you've obviously never played a P.D.Q. Bach
piece.
Joe Thompson
> Which was what i meant, actually. I luse completely at making music.
> Making music loud is another thing, however.
> And even if I am in possession of a (photo-equipped[0]) drivers license
> entitling me to drive a bus, I know that I would luse at driving a bus
> in public transportation.
Really? Over here you have to have a "commercial driver's license" to drive
anything like a bus, semi, panel truck, etc. for pay. I suppose you'd be
allowed to recreationally drive a semi you owned without a CDL, but the odds
of that ever happening are tiny, and I sure wouldn't want to be a test case.
Also, CDL holders have to retest periodically to maintain the cert, unlike
regular drivers who are allowed to renew on paper (even via post!) unless
they've committed certain offenses, allowed their licenses to expire, or are
randomly chosen. -- Joe
Måns Nilsson
Oh. My license allows me to drive anything except truck with trailer or cab
for pay. And I have to have it whether I'm paid or not. Came in handy in those
touring days.
--
Måns Nilsson MN1334-RIPE
Finger mans...@bartlet.df.lth.se for details. GSM 070 8344045
He probably just wants to take over my CELLS and then EXPLODE inside me
like a BARREL of runny CHOPPED LIVER! Or maybe he'd like to
PSYCHOLIGICALLY TERRORISE ME until I have no objection to a RIGHT-WING
MILITARY TAKEOVER of my apartment!! I guess I should call AL PACINO!
Tanuki the Raccoon-dog
>On 24 Mar 1999 10:51:10 GMT, Måns Nilsson <qdt...@babbsan.ericsson.se> wrote:
>> Which was what i meant, actually. I luse completely at making music.
>> Making music loud is another thing, however.
>> And even if I am in possession of a (photo-equipped[0]) drivers license
>> entitling me to drive a bus, I know that I would luse at driving a bus
>> in public transportation.
>
>Really? Over here you have to have a "commercial driver's license" to drive
>anything like a bus, semi, panel truck, etc. for pay. I suppose you'd be
>allowed to recreationally drive a semi you owned without a CDL, but the odds
>of that ever happening are tiny, and I sure wouldn't want to be a test case.
My .UK driver's licence lets me drive trucks of up to 7.5 tons, and
car/trailer combos with no specific weight-limit. I'm told that there
are now driving-licence-class restrictions on driving vehicles with
more than a certain number of seats, but since i'm not in the habit of
driving minibuses, this doesn't unduly concern me.
--
!Raised Tails! -:Tanuki:-
http://www.canismajor.demon.co.uk/index.html
"Ah, the Pop-Up Karma Sutra, Zero-Gravity Edition! That's mine."
Emily Gladstone
Peter da Silva <pe...@baileynm.com> wrote:
>
>Oh no, I mean the elephone got tangled in the telephone?
>
>WONDERFUL poem, if that's the one!
It's called Eletelephony, and it's by Laura E. Richards.
Once there was an elephant,
Who tried to use the telephant-
No! No! I mean an elephone
Who tried to use the telephone-
(Dear me! I am not certain quite
That even now I've got it right.)
Howe'er it was, he got his trunk
Entangled in the telephunk;
The more he tried to get it free,
The louder buzzed the telephee-
(I fear I'd better drop the song
Of elephop and telephong!)
That was one of my favorite poems from the Oxford Book of
Children's Verse when I was younger.
ObASR: I'm recovering from my life as a sysadmin... by spending
some time as a contractor doing tech support. Working for a major
Unix workstation/server manufacturer in the Silicon Valley (3
letter acronym, begins with S), I thought I'd be safe from NT for
a little while. Dammit, my company is now selling NT workstations.
The one good thing about it is that if I get an NT call by accident
I get to tell them I don't *do* Windows.
Emily
--
Emily Gladstone | eg...@equilibrium.org | Sysadmin/actress/model
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I can not change, the
courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies
of those I had to kill because they pissed me off. -Unattributed
Dave Aronson (remove x's to reply)
> CDL holders have to retest periodically to maintain the cert, unlike
> regular drivers who are allowed to renew on paper (even via post!)
> unless they've committed certain offenses, allowed their licenses to
> expire, or are randomly chosen.
Most (all?) US states also require a vision (tho not skills) retest
every so often. Not a full eye exam, just look into a little machine
and tell 'em what you see.
--
Dave Aronson, Sysop, AirNSun (f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org) +1-703-319-0714
Opinions MINE, not by GeoCities/Template/Mensa/NRA/SCA/CAUCE/USGov/God!
Support Rep. Smith's no-spam bill, NOT Sen. Murkowski's spam-is-OK one!
See my web site, http://listen.to/davearonson (last update 1999-03-04).
Dave Holland
>Violin[1], Viola[2], Piano, Harmonicas, Didgeridoo[3], and the spoons[4].
>[3] Everyone's got to do something out of the ordinary[4]
I'll see your didge and raise you a hurdy-gurdy. Now *that's* a
BinstrumentFH, both in the maintenance and the playing.
Dave
Mark Atwood
>
> Most (all?) US states also require a vision (tho not skills) retest
> every so often. Not a full eye exam, just look into a little machine
> and tell 'em what you see.
The occational proposal to do skill retest is consistantly shot down
by the AARP.
Apparently driving is a "privilage" when you are 17, but a "right"
when you're 77.
--
Mark Atwood | But that's the way of the puritans - mind like a steel trap:
m...@pobox.com | you take the bait, and it snaps shut in its deathgrip.
| -- Rich Grise <rich...@entheosengineering.com>
Jasper Janssen
>And even if I am in possession of a (photo-equipped[0]) drivers license
>entitling me to drive a bus, I know that I would luse at driving a bus
>in public transportation.
Really? Round here, there's 5 types of driver's license, for each of
which is a separate examination.
A: Motorcycles
B: cars up to 3 tonnes, and 8 person, iirc.
C: Buses (ie, more than 8 persons, large)
D: trucks: heavier than 3 tonnes
E: Any type of trailer behind any of the first four.
Jasper
Devin L. Ganger
in alt.sysadmin.recovery Joe Thompson wrote:
> Really? Over here you have to have a "commercial driver's license" to drive
> anything like a bus, semi, panel truck, etc. for pay. I suppose you'd be
> allowed to recreationally drive a semi you owned without a CDL, but the odds
> of that ever happening are tiny, and I sure wouldn't want to be a test case.
Not in Oregon and Washington, at least. It goes on a state-by-state basis.
Oregon and Washington define weight classes and you *have* to have a license
for that weight class in order to drive a vehicle in that class.[1]
> Also, CDL holders have to retest periodically to maintain the cert, unlike
> regular drivers who are allowed to renew on paper (even via post!) unless
> they've committed certain offenses, allowed their licenses to expire, or are
> randomly chosen. -- Joe
Again, that depends on the state.
I used to drive school bus in Oregon. Re-cert is pretty much a matter
of filling out the right paperwork; there weren't (at that time, at least)
any tests you had to take unless the license had lapsed.
[1] There are certain other criteria, of course -- articulated vehicles
are always covered by a CDL, or emergency vehicles, or public
transportation -- but it's mostly by weight. If you had a semi, you
would not be allowed to drive it with a trailer without a CDL, and I'm
reasonably sure that you wouldn't even be able to drive the rig alone.
--
Devin L. Ganger <de...@premier1.net>
Chief Systems Administrator, Premier1 Internet Services, Sultan, WA, USA
"Throwing military hardware at the developers might be a solution."
Joe Thompson in the Monastery
Dan Grabski
> B...@lspace.org (Ben) writes:
> > In article <7d8je5$h7h$1...@nyheter.chalmers.se> mort+...@dtek.chalmers.se
> > writes:
>
> Electric Bass(not quite so badly), Comb and Paper, Kazoo, Gargle[7].
Trombone, piano, drums, tympani, bells, marimba, cello, bass (acoustic
and electric), wind chimes, gong, clarinet, and wine glasses. [0][1]
> [7] If you have to ask, you've obviously never played a P.D.Q. Bach
> piece.
Heard, yes. Played, no. Pity.
Dan
[0] Not for a PDQ Bach song, BTW.
[1] In high school I decided to switch from cello after 5 years [2]
to the band. Literally. I tried just about every instrument I could
get my hands on, until I settled on trombone and percussion.
[2] Maybe if I had heard some Apocalyptica back then I'd still have my
cello...*sigh*
--
Dan Grabski | gra...@cif.rochester.edu | Running OpenBSD, and proud of it.
"Developing error messages? Doesn't Windows have enough of these
already? And we need a whole fscking book on how to do this?"
-- Derick Siddoway on O'Reilly NT books
Joe Thompson
Gladstone) wrote:
> ObASR: I'm recovering from my life as a sysadmin... by spending
> some time as a contractor doing tech support. Working for a major
> Unix workstation/server manufacturer in the Silicon Valley (3
> letter acronym, begins with S)
One of my friends in Minnesota does that. I didn't even know they had a
support center in MN. She has a nice shiny Irix workstation. I
drooled... -- Joe
--
Joe Thompson | http://kensey.home.mindspring.com/
fbi...@orion-com.com | PGP key: Finger joe-...@mindspring.com
AFU Axolotl of Scorn | 0- He-Who-Grinds-the-Unworthy
"I figured as long as I was down there, I'd do something." -- Jason
Christopher Milton
> [1] In high school I decided to switch from cello after 5 years [2]
> to the band. Literally. I tried just about every instrument I could
> get my hands on, until I settled on trombone and percussion.
Percussive trombone?
I played blockflute, and marching bass drum in a bagpipe band.
--
Christopher Milton <=|=> cmi...@bwn.net
http://www.bewellnet.com/cmilton/
My mail.sig won't compile without mail.sml
sig.txt: Last updated 1999-03-19
Christopher Milton
> Dave Holland (da...@zenda.demon.co.uk) <Rkz*Ir...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>:
> : Ben <B...@lspace.org> wrote:
> : >Violin[1], Viola[2], Piano, Harmonicas, Didgeridoo[3], and the spoons[4].
> : [...]
> : >[3] Everyone's got to do something out of the ordinary[4]
> : I'll see your didge and raise you a hurdy-gurdy. Now *that's* a
> : BinstrumentFH, both in the maintenance and the playing.
> recorders, krummhorns, shawms, rauschpfeifen, racketts, pipe-
> and-tabor, flutes, nakers ... .
What, no rebec?
Aled Treharne
says...
> When I had a small and consistent set of users, we got along fine for the
> most part, because they knew their own limits. If they got out of their
> depth in describing a problem, they'd shut up and let me ask questions, or
> assist me in reproducing the problem.
>
> I'd much rather work from a correct problem description than a specific
> one; it's much easier to fill in details than it is to figure out that the
> person you're talking to doesn't mean what they're saying[1].
One of my pet peeves is people trying to describe a problem, blatanlty
not knowing what they are talking about, and expecting me to understand
it all. Or when they think they can impress me by advising me of what
they think the problem is. Ya, like you get paid to do this? No? Oh, and
I do. Maybe that's why you should shut the fsck up and let me do my job.
I also hate luser-admins. I have one who tried to tell me that (insert
luser description of IP-Masquerading here) was a new thing, and that
because of it, routers can no longer tell where the traffic is coming
from, and this is the fix to the lack of IP addresses, only they're
having problems trying to get it to be Y2K compatible. Fscking luser.
ObSelfInflictedDamage: Arse. I was closing a door with a hasp for a
padlock on it when some fscking luser opens the door from the other side,
jamming my finger in the hole and almost ripping the end of my index
finger off. No, I don't know how the fsck my finger came to be in the
hole, cos I sure as hell didn't put it there. It's a mystery to me to.
And I now hate typing 't' since it requires me to remember not to type
with my index finger.
[1] NMF.
--
-Taff.
Things tend to stick out if I'm wearing "normal" trousers. -JR,ASR
For PGP Public key, finger ta...@137.222.132.60
PGP Fingerprint: 1BA9 5923 4356 8004 1014 9D6F 883E A2B7 031C 7977
Doug McNaught
> What really amazes me is that any 'Murrican nimrod can walk up to the Hertz
> counter at Heathrow and rent a car, without the staff there ever mentioning
> the phrases "right-hand-drive" or "left side of the road."
>
> On one of my trips "over," I followed some guy from New York out to the car
> park. He put his bags in the trunk of his rented Rover, then walked over to
> the left front door....
I can see myself doing that very easily, and I *know* that one drives
on the left in Britain (never done it yet myself, but...) Force of
habit is a strange thing.
-Doug
--
Doug McNaught *** do...@mcnaught.org *** http://www.mcnaught.org/~doug
All programs are poems, it's just that not all programmers are poets.
--Jonathan Guthrie in ASR
Scott Brown
wrote:
>A trombone joke:
>
>Q: What's the difference between a frog in a car and a trombonist in a
> car?
>A: The frog's probably going to a gig.
>
>*cue rim shot*
>
>Thank you, thank you all, no applause please, just throw money.
What do you call a girl who hangs out with a rock band? A groupie.
What do you call a guy who hangs out with a rock band? A drummer.
(My brother drums for a garage band...)
Shawn K. Quinn - NO SOLICITING
| What do you call a girl who hangs out with a rock band? A groupie.
Unless her first name is Watts, then you call her a drummer. (STR)
--
Shawn K. Quinn - coming soon to a twilight zone near you
Abigail
MCMXCIII in <URL:news:37385b94...@news.casema.net>:
++ In , qdt...@babbsan.ericsson.se (Måns Nilsson) wrote:
++
++ >And even if I am in possession of a (photo-equipped[0]) drivers license
++ >entitling me to drive a bus, I know that I would luse at driving a bus
++ >in public transportation.
++
++ Really? Round here, there's 5 types of driver's license, for each of
++ which is a separate examination.
++
++ A: Motorcycles
++ B: cars up to 3 tonnes, and 8 person, iirc.
++ C: Buses (ie, more than 8 persons, large)
++ D: trucks: heavier than 3 tonnes
++ E: Any type of trailer behind any of the first four.
++
I got E without doing a separate exam. Does that make me old?
Abigail
Sheldon T. Hall
wrote:
>Really? Over here you have to have a "commercial driver's license" to drive
>anything like a bus, semi, panel truck, etc. for pay. I suppose you'd be
>allowed to recreationally drive a semi you owned without a CDL, but the odds
>of that ever happening are tiny, and I sure wouldn't want to be a test case.
Yeah, you have to have a Commercial licence to drive one for _pay_, but any
nimrod with an ordinary license can rent a huge truck from Hertz, hang a
trailer on the back of that, and toddle off down the road.
I did just that when I moved to California; I had the biggest "straight
truck" I could find, and a trailer (with my car on it) behind that. I
parked it next to a normal semi in a truck stop, and the length difference
was trivial.
The major difference in driving it was that it didn't back up _nearly_ as
well as a semi. That and the fact that it needed about another 300
horsepower on the hills.
What really amazes me is that any 'Murrican nimrod can walk up to the Hertz
counter at Heathrow and rent a car, without the staff there ever mentioning
the phrases "right-hand-drive" or "left side of the road."
On one of my trips "over," I followed some guy from New York out to the car
park. He put his bags in the trunk of his rented Rover, then walked over to
the left front door....
-Shel
--
Sheldon T. Hall
7670...@compuserve.com
This message sold by weight, not by volume;
Content may have settled during shipment.
Juhana Siren
> In <slrn7fdcnh...@interport.net> fl...@interport.net (void) writes:
> >[0] Not even to mention the musicians who happen to be BOFHs. I wouldn't
> > arrogate the BOFH designation to myself, but I do play music, and I
> > know several other musician sysadmins.
> *raises his hand*
<AOL>me2</AOL>
I'm a choir singer, and also play keyboard instruments to some extent.
--
Juhana Siren, System Administrator/Extrabit Oy | Personal: Juhana...@oulu.fi
*Any opinions above are mine, not Extrabit's.* | Work: Juhana...@extrabit.fi
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< WARNING * END OF TEXT * STOP READING HERE >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Christopher Milton
> mort+...@dtek.chalmers.se writes:
> > In <slrn7fdcnh...@interport.net> fl...@interport.net (void) writes:
> > >[0] Not even to mention the musicians who happen to be BOFHs. I wouldn't
> > > arrogate the BOFH designation to myself, but I do play music, and I
> > > know several other musician sysadmins.
> > *raises his hand*
> <AOL>me2</AOL>
> I'm a choir singer, and also play keyboard instruments to some extent.
I'm partial to the Goldberg Variations on UNIXklavier...
Jasper Janssen
>I got E without doing a separate exam. Does that make me old?
No, as BE wasn't split up till' somewhere in the 80's, IIRC. Okay, so
it does make you old, just not _old_ old ;)
Jasper
Frank Lee
> How about percussive voice? :)
I can recommend Ernst Toch's "Geographical Fugue" if you want something
bizarre to add. For speaking chorus. It's the only time I've ever learnt,
rehearsed and performed the soprano part to anything.[3][4]
> I'm in the midst of rehearsing[0] African Sanctus[2], and there is some
> truly truly bizarre stuff in there. There's some bits where we just
> shout stuff at top edge of chant voice, and other bits where we shout
> out "Patri!" in rhythm with huge drums.
Done bits of it. Never had cause to do all of it - don't think the organ
has a drum stop on it, anyway...
Frank
[0] NMF
[2] NMF
[3] Okay, so basses have a fascination with ladies parts.
[4] Used to 'speak' it in the local with a few mates. Got some damn'
strange looks.
[5] Yep, worse than normal
--
Frank Lee
Sidney Sussex College, Cambridge. UK http://www.sid.cam.ac.uk/
Semiconductor Physics, Cavendish Laboratory. UK http://www.sp.phy.cam.ac.uk/
Cambridge Research Lab., Toshiba Research Europe
http://www.toshiba-europe.com/research/
Christopher Milton
> > counter at Heathrow and rent a car, without the staff there ever mentioning
> > the phrases "right-hand-drive" or "left side of the road."
> > On one of my trips "over," I followed some guy from New York out to the car
> > park. He put his bags in the trunk of his rented Rover, then walked over to
> > the left front door....
> on the left in Britain (never done it yet myself, but...) Force of
> habit is a strange thing.
After living 2 years in Thailand, I still catch myself looking right,
and then left, when crossing streets in my native USA. After 18 years.
Peter da Silva
Christopher Milton <cmi...@bwn.net> wrote:
>After living 2 years in Thailand, I still catch myself looking right,
>and then left, when crossing streets in my native USA. After 18 years.
That's an interesting comment on traffic in Thailand.
--
In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva <pe...@baileynm.com>
`-_-' "Heb jij vandaag je wolf al geaaid?"
'U`
"Tell init(8) to lock-n-load, we're goin' zombie slaying!"
Lars Hecking
> In , qdt...@babbsan.ericsson.se (Måns Nilsson) wrote:
>
> >And even if I am in possession of a (photo-equipped[0]) drivers license
> >entitling me to drive a bus, I know that I would luse at driving a bus
> >in public transportation.
>
> Really? Round here, there's 5 types of driver's license, for each of
> which is a separate examination.
>
> A: Motorcycles
> B: cars up to 3 tonnes, and 8 person, iirc.
> C: Buses (ie, more than 8 persons, large)
> D: trucks: heavier than 3 tonnes
> E: Any type of trailer behind any of the first four.
When I was in the army[1], there was similar list of 6 types.
A,E as above B cars up to 3.5t C over 3.5t D (busses?) F tanks and such.
IIRC. So my BCE is different from yours :)
[0] NMF
[1] I was much younger then [2]
[2] Don't ask.
[3] See [4].
[4] See [3].
Greg Andrews
>
>ObASR: I'm recovering from my life as a sysadmin... by spending
>some time as a contractor doing tech support. Working for a major
>Unix workstation/server manufacturer in the Silicon Valley (3
>
But there are two of those. I'm going to begin working for the
other one in a couple of weeks.
-Greg
Greg Andrews
>On 24 Mar 1999 09:54:39 -0700, Eric The Read <eric.s...@acm.org>
>wrote:
>
>>A trombone joke:
>>
>>Q: What's the difference between a frog in a car and a trombonist in a
>> car?
>>A: The frog's probably going to a gig.
>>
>>*cue rim shot*
>>
>>Thank you, thank you all, no applause please, just throw money.
>
>
>
Q: You hear a knock on your front door. How do you know it's
your drummer?
A: He speeds up.
-Greg
Paul Tomko
Q: What does it mean when drool is coming out both sides of $BANDMEMBERS mouth?
A: The stage is level.
Q: How do you get two oboes to play in tune?
A: Shoot one.
Q: What's the definition of a quarter tone?
A: Two oboes playing in unison.
Q: How do you make a trombone sound like a french horn?
A: Stick your hand in the bell and play wrong notes.
Q: What's the difference between a lawnmower and a drummer?
A: The lawnmower has rythm.
Paul
--
Paul Tomko to...@xnet.com http://www.tomkoinc.com
8000+ Humorous Quotes http://www.tomkoinc.com/quotes.html
"Invent a clever saying, and the world will remember your name forever."
- Anonymous
Jasper Janssen
>spa...@janssen.dynip.com (Jasper Janssen) writes:
>> A: Motorcycles
>> B: cars up to 3 tonnes, and 8 person, iirc.
>> C: Buses (ie, more than 8 persons, large)
>> D: trucks: heavier than 3 tonnes
>> E: Any type of trailer behind any of the first four.
>
> When I was in the army[1], there was similar list of 6 types.
> A,E as above B cars up to 3.5t C over 3.5t D (busses?) F tanks and such.
> IIRC. So my BCE is different from yours :)
Hmm. The main difference being the C and D. You've made me unsure
whether I am in fact right, and it is not supposed to be C trucks, D
buses. F for tanks not being available to civilians seems quite
logical. So, quite a similar system ;)
Jasper
David Jacoby
>Did you hear about the time the bassist locked his keys in his car?
>
>It took him nearly two hours to get the drummer out.
>
><ba-bum, CRASH>
And of course, they had to hurry, since they forgot to drop the top
of the convertable and it was going to rain.
--
David Jacoby mailto:jac...@ecn.purdue.edu
Lead Web Technician, ECE http://www.ecn.purdue.edu/~jacoby/
Can surgery and multiplayer Doom coexist on a network? -- Stephen Wolff
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric The Read
> In article <7de7pn$oka$1...@flood.xnet.com>, Paul Tomko generously decided
> to share with us..
>
> Snippetry..
>
> > Q: What's the difference between a lawnmower and a drummer?
> >
> > A: The lawnmower has rythm.
>
>
> A: You open the door and he doesn't know whether to come in or not.
Q: How do you know there's a trombonist at your door?
A: He says, "Pizza delivery!"
Q: How do you know there's a lead guitarist at your door?
A: You don't. He's too busy admiring himself to ring the doorbell.
Q: What's the one thing you'll never hear at a bluegrass festival?
A: "The banjo player's limo has arrived!"
-=Eric
Gid Holyoake
to share with us..
Snippetry..
> Q: What's the difference between a lawnmower and a drummer?
>
> A: The lawnmower has rythm.
Q: How do you know there's a lead guitarist at your door?
A: You open the door and he doesn't know whether to come in or not.
Q: How do you get the first violin section in a mini?
A: Get the leader to bend over in the doorway and the rest will creep up
his arse.
Gid
--
The Most Noble and Exalted Peculiar , Harem Master to Veiled Concubines
Guardian of the Sacred !!!!!'s , Defender of the Temple of AFPdoration
http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~gidnsuzi/ for The Irrelevant Page! MJBC
Joe Zeff
>Q: How do you get two oboes to play in tune?
>
>A: Shoot one.
>
>Q: What's the definition of a quarter tone?
>
>A: Two oboes playing in unison.
An oboe is an ill wind that nobody blows good.
---
Joe Zeff
The Guy With the Sideburns
If you can't play with words, what good are they?
http://www.lasfs.org
Tanuki the Raccoon-dog
<G...@netcomuk.co.uk> scrobe:
>Q: How do you know there's a lead guitarist at your door?
>
>A: You open the door and he doesn't know whether to come in or not.
>
>Q: How do you get the first violin section in a mini?
>
>A: Get the leader to bend over in the doorway and the rest will creep up
> his arse.
I refer you to http://www.deanmarkley.com/htmlDocs/Jokespg.html
[Effective End-thread
--
!Raised Tails! -:Tanuki:-
http://www.canismajor.demon.co.uk/index.htm
"Be Happy. Be root"
Melanie Dymond Harper
Frank Lee <rl...@cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>On 25 Mar 1999, Thorfinn wrote:
>> How about percussive voice? :)
>
>I can recommend Ernst Toch's "Geographical Fugue" if you want something
>bizarre to add. For speaking chorus. It's the only time I've ever learnt,
>rehearsed and performed the soprano part to anything.[3][4]
>
*weeps* we were put through that at school and I've now just been forcibly
reminded of how much of it actually stuck in my mind. Especially since a
non-trivial number of the chorus kept tripping up over "The Popocatapetl[1] is
not in Canada, rather in Mexico, Mexico, Mexico..."
Mel
[1] spelling probably wrong, this was about fifteen years ago after all
Juhana Siren
> >Unix workstation/server manufacturer in the Silicon Valley (3
> >letter acronym, begins with S),
> But there are two of those. I'm going to begin working for the
> other one in a couple of weeks.
And the acronym expands to...? I know of two three-letter Unix machine
manufacturers starting with S, and only one of them is an acronym
AFAIK.
Ben Harris
Juhana Siren <Juhana...@oulu.fi> wrote:
>ge...@shell1.ncal.verio.com (Greg Andrews) writes:
>
>> >Unix workstation/server manufacturer in the Silicon Valley (3
>> >letter acronym, begins with S),
>> But there are two of those. I'm going to begin working for the
>> other one in a couple of weeks.
>
>And the acronym expands to...? I know of two three-letter Unix machine
>manufacturers starting with S, and only one of them is an acronym
>AFAIK.
Silicon Graphics Incorporated
Stanford University Network
At least, that's what I've heard.
--
Ben Harris
Computer Officer, Corpus Christi College, Cambridge.
Greg Andrews
>ge...@shell1.ncal.verio.com (Greg Andrews) writes:
>
>> >Unix workstation/server manufacturer in the Silicon Valley (3
>> >letter acronym, begins with S),
>> But there are two of those. I'm going to begin working for the
>> other one in a couple of weeks.
>
>And the acronym expands to...? I know of two three-letter Unix machine
>manufacturers starting with S, and only one of them is an acronym
>AFAIK.
>
I was thinking SUN, which originally was acronymic[1] for Standford
University Network. These days it's not generally used as an
acronym, though.
(someone else pointed out SCO, though I wouldn't call them a
"workstation/server manufacturer"[2])
-Greg
[1] another pleasurette
[2] what I _would_ call them might be UI
Adam J. Thornton
Greg Andrews <ge...@shell1.ncal.verio.com> wrote:
>(someone else pointed out SCO, though I wouldn't call them a
>"workstation/server manufacturer"[2])
Would you start with a ROL, and then rot-13 the new 1st letter?
I would.
Adam
--
ad...@princeton.edu
"There's a border to somewhere waiting, and a tank full of time." - J. Steinman
Thomas Baden
>And the acronym expands to...? I know of two three-letter Unix machine
>manufacturers starting with S, and only one of them is an acronym
>AFAIK.
Erm, not to be one to pick nits, but I believe both of
them are. Maybe it's just that some people have never
heard of "Stanford University Network"? Whatever.
bb
-Thomas
Emily Gladstone
>
>> >Unix workstation/server manufacturer in the Silicon Valley (3
>> >letter acronym, begins with S),
>> But there are two of those. I'm going to begin working for the
>> other one in a couple of weeks.
>
>manufacturers starting with S, and only one of them is an acronym
>AFAIK.
Are you talking about Silicon Graphics Incorporated or Stanford
University Network? Only one of the two is selling NT workstations,
and dammit, the company I conslut for had to sell my contract to
that one!
At least they haven't asked us if any of us know NT... I'm planning
to deny it vehemently if asked. I'm selling my mind, not my soul.
ObASR: one of my cow-orkers may have decided that M$'s way is the
one true way: a server he's in charge of gets power-cycled once a
day, whether it needs it or not. Ugh.
Emily
--
Emily Gladstone | eg...@equilibrium.org | Sysadmin/Actress/Model
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I can not change, the
courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies
of those I had to kill because they pissed me off. -Unattributed
David Jacoby
Juhana Siren <Juhana...@oulu.fi> wrote:
>ge...@shell1.ncal.verio.com (Greg Andrews) writes:
>> >Unix workstation/server manufacturer in the Silicon Valley (3
>> >letter acronym, begins with S),
>> But there are two of those. I'm going to begin working for the
>> other one in a couple of weeks.
>And the acronym expands to...? I know of two three-letter Unix machine
>manufacturers starting with S, and only one of them is an acronym
>AFAIK.
Stanford University Network, or the other one?
void
wrote:
*snip*
>
>And of course, they had to hurry, since they forgot to drop the top
>of the convertable and it was going to rain.
Q. How many bassists does it take to change a light bulb?
A. None; the keyboardist does it with his left hand.
Q. How do you get a guitarist to turn down?
A. Put sheet music in front of him.
Q. How many singers does it take to change a light bulb?
A. Just one: they hold the light bulb, and the world revolves around them.
--
Ben, a guitar player
"You have your mind on computers, it seems."
Juhana Siren
> Erm, not to be one to pick nits, but I believe both of
> them are. Maybe it's just that some people have never
> heard of "Stanford University Network"? Whatever.
OK, so I'm an ignorant fool. Fine. Whatever.
Now, back to our scheduled ranting.