Picture the following Scenario:
See Nir want to install mcdl.pl - a nice script which catalogues
collections of CDs. It does it in a neat fashion. It uses a CDDB perl
module and a mySQL module - and it simply combines the two along with a
small programs that figures out the serial number on the CD.
Anyway - I have to install the DBI moduels - right? Unfortunately I
couldn't get perl5 to compile with normal dynamic module loading
capabilities - so I decide on getting a precompiled Debian package. I mean
- that's why I got Debian - right? To save my valuable time?
Enter dselect. I remove an old package and dselect responds by wiping off:
kernel header files (and all include files somehow)
And a plethora of random crap.
I say - 'What the fuck'? And start off by wildly ftping Debian packages
and reinstalling them all.
I finally manage to get X working again - and install netscape (BTW: How
many fucking packages of netscape _are there_? What's wrong with just
plain old 'netscape'?). I catch up on Slugy. Life seems good. I decide to
get back to what I was doing in the first place. Install perl from scratch
(How many perl packages are there, anyway?) and notice that DBI won't
compile. All include files are missing. I don't feel like fiuring out why
- so I do what every person in his right mind would do - that's right - I
download the DBI Debian package. I also download the mysql Debian package
just for the hell of it.
I install mySQL. 'Can't find libreadlineg2' Fine by me. I download it and
attempt to install it.
'libreadlineg2 conflicts with libreadline2'
Okay - so it does - no biggy - --force-conflict.
psychodad:~/archives/packages> ldd /bin/bash
libreadline.so.2 => /lib/libreadline.so.2 (0x4000a000)
libncurses.so.3.0 => /lib/libncurses.so.3.0 (0x40035000)
libdl.so.1 => /lib/libdl.so.1 (0x40072000)
libc.so.5 => /lib/libc.so.5 (0x40075000)
libncurses.so.4 => /lib/libncurses.so.4 (0x40133000)
libc.so.6 => /lib/libc.so.6 (0x40173000)
ld-linux.so.2 => /lib/ld-linux.so.2 (0x40218000)
Apparently Debian's root shell is dynamically linked...
So it now segfaults every time I run it.
Wait a second! I have a root shell open! that oughta fix things up! Run
ftp to... Oh fuck. ftp also depends on libreadline.
Oh good! I have an ftp open on another VT!
bash-2.01# dpkg --install libreadline2_2.1-12.deb
(Reading database ... 17774 files and directories currently installed.)
Preparing to replace libreadline2 2.1-2bo7.3 (using
libreadline2_2.1-12.deb) ...dpkg: error processing libreadline2_2.1-12.deb
subprocess pre-installation script killed by signal (Segmentation fault)
Errors were encountered while processing:
Yes ladies and gentlemen! dpkg runs sh scripts which run under - you
guessed it - bash! Which is dynamically linked.
Therefore dpkg is dependant on packages that dpkg is supposed to install.
What the fuck?
So now what do I have? I have a complete useless Linux installation until
I figure out where the hell I put my rescue disks and hope to hell that at
least THEY have a statically linked sh - or at least functioning
And I blame it all on Debian.
All software sucks. But software which has inter-dependencies sucks a lot
Damn - all packaging tools to hell. Damn them I say!
And for fucks sake people - when you build a Linux distribution - the
LEAST you can do is have a statically linked shell _somewhere_. That's
what statically linked shells are for, remember?
Ahh fuck it. Guess I'll just save all my data on my DOS partition and
reinstall the whole fucking works.
Oh - and downloading the binaries from Slackware did little good for some
It's time to tar -cvf /dosC/tmp/scorpios.tar ~/
Yawn. That and I've got a mindblowing headache... I'm going to take my
scor...@cs.huji.ac.il -*- Nir Soffer -*- http://www.sc.huji.ac.il/~scorpios/
"Attention all you tube rats, toilet drinks, rabbits, cats and dung flingers!
The exit is that way. Let's clear the cages in an orderly fashion, because
I fashion to stuff them with orderlies!" -- Bunbun - Sluggy.com - 30/Jan/2000
>Apparently Debian's root shell is dynamically linked...
<SelfLART type="read through devfs and keep finding new races">Aiiiieeeee...
"You're one of those condescending Unix computer users!"
"Here's a nickel, kid. Get yourself a better computer" - Dilbert.
conflicts [!] Allow installation of conflicting packages
WARNING - use of options marked [!] can seriously damage your installation.
--force-conflicts says you know what you're doing better than dpkg does.
If it turns out that you were wrong, that's your fault, not dpkg's.
Of course, Debian still sucks in many ways (like dselect getting you into
this state), but don't blame them when you explicitly override dpkg's
>Therefore dpkg is dependant on packages that dpkg is supposed to install.
Of course. dpkg --status dpkg, anyone? Upgrading essential packages would
be impossible if it wasn't.
Unix Support, University of Cambridge Computing Service.
If I wanted to speak for the University, I'd be in ucam.comp-serv.announce.
> Of course, Debian still sucks in many ways (like dselect getting you
> this state), but don't blame them when you explicitly override dpkg's
I got an apology for dselect by it's author at a party once. Debian is
still my package of choice, basically because it's run by a bunch of
geeks with no pretensions.
> "Ben Harris" <bj...@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
> I got an apology for dselect by it's author at a party once. Debian is
> still my package of choice, basically because it's run by a bunch of
> geeks with no pretensions.
dselect is good. It acts as a clue filter. Get through dselect and
you're not so cocky anymore.
Gustaf Erikson --- 59*19'N 18*05'E
In other words, you figured the software was smarter than you, and you
were wrong. Maybe you left your NT Admin hat on or something.
IIRC, AIKID, when you remove an obsolete, unimportant package (like
say "libc6" or "ldso"), "dselect" will give you a "Dependency and
conflict resolution" screen prefaced by a full page of instructions.
You don't need to read the full page of instructions if you don't
want. All you need to remember is gb glcr "E" (nf va "*E*nz zl urnq
vagb n jnyy orpnhfr gung jnf n fghcvq guvat gb erzbir") naq "D" (nf va
"*D*hvpxyl jnxr zr hc sebz guvf ubeevoyr, ubeevoyr avtugzner").
"dselect" isn't the best package manager on Earth. The best one is
that one that'll do what you want instead of what you tell it to do,
though I can't seem to remember its name just now. (The second best
one is "apt", but someone else has already mentioned it.)
: Bad idea.
: psychodad:~/archives/packages> ldd /bin/bash
: libreadline.so.2 => /lib/libreadline.so.2 (0x4000a000)
: libncurses.so.3.0 => /lib/libncurses.so.3.0 (0x40035000)
: libdl.so.1 => /lib/libdl.so.1 (0x40072000)
: libc.so.5 => /lib/libc.so.5 (0x40075000)
: libncurses.so.4 => /lib/libncurses.so.4 (0x40133000)
: libc.so.6 => /lib/libc.so.6 (0x40173000)
: ld-linux.so.2 => /lib/ld-linux.so.2 (0x40218000)
: Apparently Debian's root shell is dynamically linked...
: With libreadline.
: So it now segfaults every time I run it.
Is this where I get to do my evil BWWWAAA laugh?
I'm sorry, I've quite run out of Wittgenstein ObULs. -- D.M. Procida
Out of interest, are you using Debian potato, and did you uninstall
something like libc6-bin? In which case you might want to follow the
mailing lists if you're using a not-for-general-lusers branch of the
(That and learning the recovery sequences for dselect, of course.)
>I finally manage to get X working again - and install netscape (BTW: How
>many fucking packages of netscape _are there_? What's wrong with just
>plain old 'netscape'?).
ncg-trg vafgnyy anivtngbe
ncg-trg vafgnyy pbzzhavpngbe
>I install mySQL. 'Can't find libreadlineg2' Fine by me. I download it and
>attempt to install it.
>'libreadlineg2 conflicts with libreadline2'
>Okay - so it does - no biggy - --force-conflict.
That reminds me of the time where installing the version of perl in the
unstable branch of the Debian distro broke various things. Like
It was worse. He was using Debian "hamm" (hence the presence of an
existing "libreadline2"), and he tried to install a Debian "slink" or
"potato" package (hence the need to install "libreadline2g").
For those who wouldn't know Debian from a hole in the ground, "hamm"
and "slink/potato" are based on different major versions of the C
library. Thus, it requires more than a little effort to upgrade a
"hamm" distribution in piecemeal fashion.
But I'll say no more on the matter. I'm getting worried that Mr. da
Silva will tear me a new one if I keep talking Linux.
I'm very deliberately Not Getting Involved this time around.
Right now I'm dealing with the ways in which C++ fhpxf chf sebz gur nany
fberf bs n yrcebhf pnzry.
In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva <pe...@baileynm.com>
`-_-' Ar rug tú barróg ar do mhactíre inniu?
"I *am* $PHB" -- Skud.
dselect is a clue filter, but not in the way you think. The clue lies in
realizing that it's totally unnecessary, and you can use <UI DELETED> to
accomplish the same task with a minimum of fuss, and an explicit list of
packages that will be installed, and which will be removed.
That said, the virtual packages that revolve around perl, netscape, and X
are nearly all evil. But I haven't had to use dselect in a dog's age.
"Cutting the space budget really restores my faith in humanity. It
eliminates dreams, goals, and ideals and lets us get straight to the
business of hate, debauchery, and self-annihilation."
-- Johnny Hart
Reminds me of a quote from fortune:
C makes it easy for you to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes that
harder, but when you do, it blows away your whole leg.
-- Bjarne Stroustrup
220 go.ahead.make.my.day ESMTP Postfix
Gurer'f n ernfba jul fnfu (juvpu pnzr ba zl 2.1 Qrovna PQf, naq urapr V
fhfcrpg vf n snveyl glcvpny hgvy) vf ebbg'f ybtva furyy ba zl znpuvar.
I'm a UNIX System Administrator for hire.
My Resume: http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~rlpowell/
BTW, I'm male. Honest. Which has nothing to do with me being a
sysadmin, I just want to avoid wannafscks from guys.
I have had fairly frequent inflammations of the outer ear (due to
having a narrow ear channel, doing _lot's_ of water sports, and biking
to and from lakes/pools/white-water rivers with wet hair and no
hat). I always got Novicain-based drops, and antibiotics. Things
usually were ok after 3 or 4 days.
Then I discovered the power of Aspirin. If I feel the start of an ear
ache, I take two and sleep it over. Most often it is fine the next
An inflammation of the middle or inner ear, on the other hand, is a
lot more serious, and should be taken to a specialist as early as
 Yes, this is at least semi-luserish...
-------------------------- It can be done! ---------------------------------
Please email me as sch...@informatik.tu-muenchen.de (Stephan Schulz)
Serves you *just* right, you PREVERT!
Felix, always interested in new applications for bodily orifices
What part of that sentence did you consider UI that needed rot-13ing?
Paul Tomblin, not speaking for anybody.
'Usenet "belongs" to those who administer the hosts of which it is comprised'
- RFC 1036, draft revision
The only thing I regularly use --nodeps for is to uninstall sendmail after
I've installed postfix. rpm thinks I can't uninstall sendmail because if I
do, nothing will be able to provide an MTA to mutt and fetchmail. That's
actually pretty smart of it, but I'm glad I can override it.
> What part of that sentence did you consider UI that needed rot-13ing?
What makes you think I'm part of that hokey religion?
Ah, kids today. dselect as a clue filter? What happened to the old
faithful trio, sendmail.cf, ed and adb macros?
I knew I'd been SAing too long when I was able to use ed comfortably
without once looking at the manuals
Such a pity these have gone away. I mean, no one needs to rebuild boxes
without term* or whatever anymore, so ed's gone, that sissy m4 stuff has
come in for sendmail, and as for adb, Sun's new mdb is extendable with c
(though doesn't currently support an interpreted language other then
good ol adb; they claim none really can quite do the job, and it's true
that perl, python and tcl are all a little lacking on the ol manipulate
kernel data structure front).
And now one doesn't need to go through setting up X at the config level,
or downloading all 40 disks of SLS, or even building your own kernels.
We come to the point instead where _dselect_ is considered a filter.
What can we do to stop today's kids getting soft? Require them all to
run Plan 9? Program in Intercal?
This is a serious problem, fellow BOFH's, one we need to think about.
Matthew Crosby cro...@cs.colorado.edu
Disclaimer: It was in another country, and besides, the wench is dead.
I think I posted a rant about this sort of problem about a year ago. Did
anyone bother to keep it?
One possibility is that netbsd doesn't encourage you to get quite as soft.
Having to make all the device nodes by hand so I could install to the
second IDE controller was comforting in a way, and I edited the XF86Config
manually too (although I'm sure if I'd cared to look, I could have just
built some tool from the ports collection).
"My eyes say their prayers to her / Sailors ring her bell / Like a moth
mistakes a light bulb / For the moon and goes to hell." -- Tom Waits
Bloody kids. If it hasn't got a front panel and you don't have to toggle in
the bootstrap by hand you haven't experienced a real installation.
>Bloody kids. If it hasn't got a front panel and you don't have to toggle in
>the bootstrap by hand you haven't experienced a real installation.
I suppose my brother's SWTPC 6800 was a luxury, then, because instead
of a front panel it came with MIKBUG in ROM?
Ben Coleman NJ8J http://oloryn.home.mindspring.com/
"I love the way Microsoft follows standards. In much the
same manner that fish follow migrating caribou."
Anyway, I own a personal "site license" for it, and they are pretty
liberal on what they consider site, so if we just call ourselves "Scary
Devil Research" or something I think I can send you a copy. Send me
(That assumes you can find hardware that will run it, mind you. The
driver set was never very big to begin with and is state of the art 95
or so. Best bet might be to dig up an old Sparc or something...)
> In article <88sjdt$5l5$1...@allhats.xcski.com>,
> Paul Tomblin <ptom...@xcski.com> wrote:
> > In a previous article, pe...@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) said:
> > >Right now I'm dealing with the ways in which C++ fhpxf chf sebz gur nany
> > >fberf bs n yrcebhf pnzry.
> > What part of that sentence did you consider UI that needed rot-13ing?
> What makes you think I'm part of that hokey religion?
The fact that here, *nobody* uses rot-13 for bad language?
Just record it off the television.
> Bloody kids. If it hasn't got a front panel and you don't have to toggle in
> the bootstrap by hand you haven't experienced a real installation.
Bah, you haven't booted up your PDP 11 in years. Go sit in the
corner and mourn the instruction set.
Network Samurai http://www.syncronym.org/~nick/
> > > What part of that sentence did you consider UI that needed rot-13ing?
> > What makes you think I'm part of that hokey religion?
> The fact that here, *nobody* uses rot-13 for bad language?
I do. Proof by example that your statement is inoperative.
> I suppose my brother's SWTPC 6800 was a luxury, then, because instead
> of a front panel it came with MIKBUG in ROM?
ROM monitors were the first steps down the road to Install Wizards. The road
to hell is paved with convenient shortcuts.
> Bah, you haven't booted up your PDP 11 in years. Go sit in the
> corner and mourn the instruction set.
This PDP-11? This bloody PDP-11 has more ROM on the disk controller than
any computer has a right to. It's not a real computer, it's just the next
Besides, I booted it up 1-1-2000.
> How about "Didn't have a front panel, had to burn our own ROMs"?
s/burn/weave/ if you really want peopel to respect your chops, man.
>In a previous article, pe...@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) said:
>>Right now I'm dealing with the ways in which C++ fhpxf chf sebz gur nany
>>fberf bs n yrcebhf pnzry.
>What part of that sentence did you consider UI that needed rot-13ing?
Perhaps there are some parts of sysadminning that require one to fhpx chf
debz gur nany fberf bs n yrcebhf pnzry?
I'm just glad I've not come across these areas of sysadminning.
>> And now one doesn't need to go through setting up X at the config level,
>> or downloading all 40 disks of SLS, or even building your own kernels.
>Bloody kids. If it hasn't got a front panel and you don't have to toggle in
>the bootstrap by hand you haven't experienced a real installation.
*Some* of us did many of our first installations with a soldering iron,
*then* got the luxury of using toggle switches & a 'load memory' button.
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
>On 22 Feb 2000 20:36:06 GMT, Peter da Silva wrote:
>>Bloody kids. If it hasn't got a front panel and you don't have to toggle in
>>the bootstrap by hand you haven't experienced a real installation.
>I suppose my brother's SWTPC 6800 was a luxury, then, because instead
>of a front panel it came with MIKBUG in ROM?
(Ah, it's been a long time since I've heard any mention of the old
>pe...@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) writes:
>> Bloody kids. If it hasn't got a front panel and you don't have to
>> toggle in the bootstrap by hand you haven't experienced a real
>How about "Didn't have a front panel, had to burn our own ROMs"?
Trust me on this one - having an EPROM to burn your boot code into
semi-permanantly *is* a luxury, after being used to toggling it into RAM
for the umpteenth time after your app code has scribbled on it yet
Ever heard of wire-wrapping? Either lots of little 1N914 diodes
in a matrix, or, if you're really desperate, lots of little
ferrite cores on a crosswire-matrix...
!Raised Tails! -:Tanuki:-
"We're not the admins you're looking for"