Unbelievable...

mrob...@worldnet.att.net

unread,

Jun 27, 2002, 7:03:33 AM6/27/02

to

Juergen Nieveler <juergen....@web.de> wrote:
>http://www.toiletmap.gov.au/

I thought it was a joke.

I read it some more. Checked the whois. Not a joke.

I'm just glad to know that .au has a "National Continence Management
Strategy".

1,000 quatloos to any monk who can get T# Direct's office listed as
a public toilet, though.

>Of course, it uses crappy Javascript...

Maybe if you flushed your cache it would work better.

Matt Roberds

Bogdan Iamandei [ROT13]

unread,

Jun 27, 2002, 7:50:39 AM6/27/02

to

In article <afen9g$23p$1...@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au>, Paul Dwerryhouse wrote:
> Juergen Nieveler <juergen....@web.de> writes:
>
>>Things seem really to have gone down the sh*tter in .AU when people
>>need a site like THIS to help them:
>>http://www.toiletmap.gov.au/
>
> I'd argue that it's the most useful thing our government has done in
> a very long time.

Next in line: "Click here to get your flash light, map and diagram -
all nicely packaged in a survival kit for those who can't find their
own arses".

Ino!~

--
I have seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire
off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark
near the Tannhauser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time,
like tears in rain. Time to die.

Bogdan Iamandei [ROT13]

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Jun 27, 2002, 7:57:28 AM6/27/02

to

In article <9iCS8.37208$PW....@news2.central.cox.net>, mrob...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
> Juergen Nieveler <juergen....@web.de> wrote:
> [...]

>>Of course, it uses crappy Javascript...
> Maybe if you flushed your cache it would work better.

I believe he needs to use the plunger too.

Oh my $DEITIES - What have you done - you started a golden cascade!

Rob Adams

unread,

Jun 27, 2002, 8:37:53 AM6/27/02

to

Juergen Nieveler <juergen....@web.de> wrote:

>Things seem really to have gone down the sh*tter in .AU when people
>need a site like THIS to help them:
>
>http://www.toiletmap.gov.au/
>

>Of course, it uses crappy Javascript...

Its even correct (for once), the public toilets just up the road from
my place is clearly mapped out on
http://www.toiletmap.gov.au/output/HAC_PILOT_PROD01275237105.jpg

Mind you, you still have to walk halfway down the arcade thats there
to find them. :)

Rob.

--
ADVISORY: The email address contained in the header of this posting is
a legitimate address; it is used to harvest email addresses so that we
can email you our own email message containing advertisments. To stop
yourself getting on this list use robadams(at)dingoblue{dit}net(dit)au

Tanuki the Raccoon-dog

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Jun 27, 2002, 1:42:17 PM6/27/02

to

In <Xns923AA4FA66E2...@nieveler-43544.user.cis.dfn.de>,
Juergen Nieveler <juergen....@web.de> said

>Rob Adams <roba...@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
>
>> Its even correct (for once), the public toilets just up the road from
>> my place is clearly mapped out on
>> http://www.toiletmap.gov.au/output/HAC_PILOT_PROD01275237105.jpg
>

>I still wonder what the site is supposed to be doing, though.
>
>Helping people in need find a toilet is a nice idea, but to access the
>information they would first have to find at least an internet cafe -
>surely those also have toilets?
>
>It would be a killer application for WAP, though...

TLP. Toilet Location Protocol. Sends out a beacon packet from your
phone, and computes the RTT for each response received, thereby
identifying the nearest toilet.
--
!Raised Tails! -:Tanuki:-
"I don't know how the egg ended up in my bed or even why; no bread, chips
or ham was involved, just an egg. Still after a quick wash it tasted OK"

Paul Boven

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Jun 27, 2002, 4:02:19 PM6/27/02

to

On 27 Jun 2002 11:30:31 -0700, J.D. Forinash <spa...@forinash.net> wrote:
> In article <aGC46xA550G9Ewf$@canismajor.demon.co.uk>,

> Tanuki the Raccoon-dog <Tanuki@canis-^Hmajor.da^Hemon.co.uk> wrote:
>>TLP. Toilet Location Protocol. Sends out a beacon packet from your
>>phone, and computes the RTT for each response received, thereby
>>identifying the nearest toilet.
>

> Nearest is often handy, but I think I want a power-user version that will

I stopped reading right there. We are now all very curious what makes you
a power-user for these toilets. *NOT*
--
------------------------------------------------------------------
| "Rules exist to make you think before you break them" - Lu-Tze |
------------------------------------------------------------------
| Paul Boven <p.b...@chello.nl> PE1NUT QRV 145.575 |
------------------------------------------------------------------
~

Mark Lambert

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Jun 27, 2002, 4:28:19 PM6/27/02

to

In article <Xns923AA4FA66E27juergennieveler@nieveler-
43544.user.cis.dfn.de>, juergen....@web.de says...

> I still wonder what the site is supposed to be doing, though.
>
> Helping people in need find a toilet is a nice idea, but to access the
> information they would first have to find at least an internet cafe -
> surely those also have toilets?

ObNotReallyRelated:
Having moved from .au to .us, I can see that native .usians may not
realise that .au has almost NO shops that provide a public rest room.
in .us, almost every business has a public rest room... back home, you
would have to look hard for one, outside of shopping malls. even the
big department stores hardly ever have a restroom.

However, as Juergen said, how the hell is this site supposed to help?
Wireless web? assuming you could get a braindead WAP browser to work
with Javashite? yeah, right. pass the toilet paper.
--
A hundred thousand lemmings can't be wrong!

Chris King

unread,

Jun 27, 2002, 4:42:03 PM6/27/02

to

In message <10252081...@blaat.sara.nl>, Paul Boven
<pa...@node174f9.a2000.nl> writes

>I stopped reading right there. We are now all very curious what makes you
>a power-user for these toilets. *NOT*

Frequent Crapper Programme ?

Chris
(No coat - too warm for one today...)
--
Chris King
ch...@csking.co.uk
http://www.csking.co.uk

Alan J Rosenthal

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Jun 27, 2002, 10:36:08 PM6/27/02

to

Tanuki the Raccoon-dog <Tanuki@canis-^Hmajor.da^Hemon.co.uk> writes:
>TLP. Toilet Location Protocol. Sends out a beacon packet from your
>phone, and computes the RTT for each response received, thereby
>identifying the nearest toilet.

Bah. Just make them all flush in "power" mode, and listen for the splashes
against the ceiling.

Suresh Ramasubramanian

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Jun 29, 2002, 1:49:28 PM6/29/02

to

Derick Siddoway proclaimed on alt.sysadmin.recovery that:
> It is said by some that Juergen Nieveler once wrote:

> > fl...@dgp.toronto.edu (Alan J Rosenthal) wrote:
> >> Bah. Just make them all flush in "power" mode, and listen for the
> >> splashes against the ceiling.

> > Or for the scream of the poor guy sitting on it...
> I thought people paid big bucks for bidets.

Cue cartoon images where $funny_predator gets to sit on a (fire hydrant|geyser)
and bob up and down on a jet of water ... till the flow suddenly gets cut off.

-srs

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

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Jun 29, 2002, 9:24:11 PM6/29/02

to

In <aGC46xA550G9Ewf$@canismajor.demon.co.uk>, on 06/27/2002
at 06:42 PM, Tanuki the Raccoon-dog
<Tanuki@canis-^Hmajor.da^Hemon.co.uk> said:

>TLP. Toilet Location Protocol. Sends out a beacon packet from your
>phone, and computes the RTT for each response received, thereby
>identifying the nearest toilet.

Clearly DNS or ARP.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
Reply to domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+bspfh to contact me.
Annandale pledge: Under no circumstances will I ever purchase
software, audio or video recordings that are copy protected.

Alan J Rosenthal

unread,

Jun 30, 2002, 1:16:11 PM6/30/02

to

Juergen Nieveler <juergen....@web.de> writes:
>fl...@dgp.toronto.edu (Alan J Rosenthal) wrote:

>> Bah. Just make them all flush in "power" mode, and listen for the
>> splashes against the ceiling.
>

>Or for the scream of the poor guy sitting on it...

On the contrary, I intended this aspect as part of the protocol.
Hopefully they _don't_ scream, or at least not loud enough to interfere
with your direction-finding of the splashes against the ceiling.

Remember that the purpose of the TLP is to find _unoccupied_ toilets.
Hence the value of a protocol which doesn't signal if the toilet is occupied.

SteveD

unread,

Jul 1, 2002, 5:16:03 AM7/1/02

to

Paul Martin <p...@zetnet.net> stumbled up to the camera and said -
"It's..."

>In article <3d1e5dbb$7$fuzhry+tra$mr2...@news.patriot.net>,

> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz wrote:
>>
>> In <aGC46xA550G9Ewf$@canismajor.demon.co.uk>, on 06/27/2002
>> at 06:42 PM, Tanuki the Raccoon-dog
>> <Tanuki@canis-^Hmajor.da^Hemon.co.uk> said:
>>
>>>TLP. Toilet Location Protocol. Sends out a beacon packet from your
>>>phone, and computes the RTT for each response received, thereby
>>>identifying the nearest toilet.
>>
>> Clearly DNS or ARP.
>

>The first is Dunny Notification System, but I'm afraid you've jumbled
>the letters of the second, and missed off the leading C.

I can't possibly be the only one who read that as "Arse Relocation
Protocol".

ObWork:
Step 1 - Be told by TPTB to take work from the incoming queue and do it.

Step 2 - TPTB change their minds, say that work will be distributed to
us as TPTB see fit.
Step 3 - Wait with empty personal queue while work piles up in group
queue and TPTB try to figure out queue system. Repeat for a week or
more.
Step 4 - Surf web, wait to be yelled at for not doing work. Yes, I have
my copy and backup of the order not to do anything we weren't assigned
directly, why do you ask?

-SteveD
--
So there I am, bare chest covered in blue body paint, prancing around,
half naked, like a rock star on bad acid, telling lies. And people say
monks are introverted.
- Stevo

AndyC the WB

unread,

Jul 1, 2002, 8:47:52 AM7/1/02

to

>>>>> "Derick" == Derick Siddoway <der...@bitflood.net> writes:

Derick> I thought people paid big bucks for bidets.

Can't remember where I heard it, but I remember someone on T.V. being
introduced as "Executive Director of $FOO" with the follow-on comment
that an Executive Director is a bit like a bidet. Both add a touch of
class, but no-one is really sure what they are for.

AndyC

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

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Jul 1, 2002, 2:05:29 PM7/1/02

to

In <slrnahte...@laptop.nowster.org.uk>, on 06/30/2002

at 01:37 PM, Paul Martin <p...@zetnet.net> said:

>The first is Dunny Notification System,

Discover next sh*th**s*.

>but I'm afraid you've jumbled
>the letters of the second, and missed off the leading C.

That's a different protocol. You're probably thinking of feces
transfer protocol.

Jasper Janssen

unread,

Jul 1, 2002, 5:19:12 PM7/1/02

to

On Thu, 27 Jun 2002 20:28:19 GMT, Mark Lambert
<mark.nos...@lambcom.com> wrote:

>However, as Juergen said, how the hell is this site supposed to help?
>Wireless web? assuming you could get a braindead WAP browser to work
>with Javashite? yeah, right. pass the toilet paper.

GPRS/Wince? GPRS and/or GSM-data with something else, possibly.. A laptop
will work, even if it is a bit bulky. I already know a few poeople who
(sometimes) carry around a full laptop with GPRS access to the internet.
Just think, you can chat on IRC from the cafe.

Jasper

Chris "Saundo" Saunderson

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Jul 1, 2002, 10:09:39 PM7/1/02

to

Lionel <n...@alt.net> wrote in news:kip0iu0n7nqc1gi7db4sud4oq3an7gk8g3@
4ax.com:

> Word has it that on 01 Jul 2002 13:47:52 +0100, in this august forum,

> I don't know if that is what it is, but it sounds very 'Yes, Minister'.

I was thinking more of Blackadder..

"Your Majesty is like a stream of bat's piss"
"WHAT?!"
"Shining out as a beacon of gold from the darkness".

But that's just me.

Saundo

--
Chris "Saundo" Saunderson sau...@earthlink.net
Unix Guy, CCNA/CCDA Guy.
Powered by Linux and the Orb

J. Michael Looney

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Jul 2, 2002, 9:36:11 AM7/2/02

to

In article <Xns923ED71C3AFE6s...@207.217.77.24>,
sau...@earthlink.net says...

I was thinking more of Blackadder..
>
>"Your Majesty is like a stream of bat's piss"
>"WHAT?!"
>"Shining out as a beacon of gold from the darkness".

Butbutbut....

That's a Python (tm) not an Adder.

<question type = rhetorical>
Why is the really good British shows have a snake in the name?
</question>

--
Silliness is the last refuse of the doomed.
P. Opus
mlo...@cox.net

AndyC the WB

unread,

Jul 2, 2002, 11:18:54 AM7/2/02

to

>>>>> "J" == J Michael Looney <mlo...@xcski.com> writes:

>> "Your Majesty is like a stream of bat's piss" "WHAT?!"
>> "Shining out as a beacon of gold from the darkness".

J> Butbutbut....

J> That's a Python (tm) not an Adder.

'Sfunny. I could have sworn it was an adderism.

J> <question type = rhetorical> Why is the really good British
J> shows have a snake in the name? </question>

So what kind of snake is a Red Dwarf? :-)

AndyC

AndyC the WB

unread,

Jul 2, 2002, 11:27:28 AM7/2/02

to

>>>>> "Toni" == Toni Lassila <to...@nukespam.org> writes:

Toni> A bit of googling for "executive director" and "bidet"
Toni> reveals[1] the original quote being from Have I Got News For
Toni> You.

Of course it was. I'm kind of surprised to find that in google - do
they index broadcast TV shows as well :-)

Toni> [1] And my what extraordinary non-relevant results it
Toni> returns.

This is true for a sufficiently large subset of all possible google searches
that it would be hard to disprove by example.

s/google/$search_engine/ doesn't change that hypothesis, either.

If you've never tried it, google for your own name sometime. Mine
used to come back with (amongst others) "Andy Cunningham answers your
questions on vegan cookery". I'm really tempted to put up a page with
the same title and keywords and a picture of a rare steak and the
caption "Vegan cookery: just say no"[2].

[2][3] With apologies to any Vegan monks.

[3] Continuing the previous numbering sequence, rather than starting a
new one.

Colin Percival

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Jul 2, 2002, 12:25:59 PM7/2/02

to

AndyC the WB <andy...@nospam.yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> If you've never tried it, google for your own name sometime.

A couple hundred pages, over 90% of which are about me, and none of those
which are not are particularly scandalous.
Maybe my name is negatively correlated with being online... or perhaps
that spam was right, and I do in fact have a very distinguished name.

unread,

Jul 2, 2002, 2:36:21 PM7/2/02

to

Colin Percival <cper...@sfu.ca> wrote:

In my case, it appears I've lived everywhere, know everyone, and
have done everything. _Fascinating_

--
"We have captured lightning and used it to teach sand how to think."

Robin Munn

unread,

Jul 2, 2002, 2:34:24 PM7/2/02

to

Interesting; digging down into the second page of results, it seems I
was a high school wrestling champion four years in a row -- ten years
before I was born.

--
Robin Munn
rm...@pobox.com

Dr Ivan D. Reid

unread,

Jul 2, 2002, 4:12:46 PM7/2/02

to

On 2 Jul 2002 16:25:59 GMT, Colin Percival <cper...@sfu.ca>

wrote in <afsk6n$rff$1...@morgoth.sfu.ca>:

>AndyC the WB <andy...@nospam.yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> If you've never tried it, google for your own name sometime.

> A couple hundred pages, over 90% of which are about me, and none of those
>which are not are particularly scandalous.

More, or fewer, than your father[1][2]?

> Maybe my name is negatively correlated with being online... or perhaps
>that spam was right, and I do in fact have a very distinguished name.

In one of my other google lives I'm a famous psychologist who writes
on British sexual habits...

>Colin "wise fool" Percival

...and I've also got a street named after me in Houston.

[1] Who sent me an e-mail today. More work, re-writing a paper... :-(
[2] Pages, that is, not scandals!

--
Ivan Reid, Electronic & Computer Eng., Brunel Uni. Ivan...@brunel.ac.uk
KotPT -- "for stupidity above and beyond the call of duty".

Stuart Lamble

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Jul 2, 2002, 6:40:50 PM7/2/02

to

In article <afsoft$u87$1...@allhats.xcski.com>, J. Michael Looney wrote:
>In article <ulm8uq...@hiddendomain.com>, andy...@NOSPAM.yahoo.co.uk
>says...
> J> <question type = rhetorical> Why is the really good British
>> J> shows have a snake in the name? </question>
>>
>>So what kind of snake is a Red Dwarf? :-)
>
>I did say "really good"
>
>Not just "better than most American shows".

To be fair, that latter is not exactly a difficult target to reach.
I have a strong suspicion[1] that shows like the Australian Big
Brother[2], Neighbours, Home and Away, and the Weakest Link are all
better than most American shows.

[1] of which I have neither intention nor desire to personally either
confirm or repudiate.
[2] Which has just finished, hopefully for good, according to the
co-workers. Maybe now we'll get some quality programming. Hang on
-- I think I just saw Babe do a couple of stunts in formation with
a bunch of MiGs.

--
I'm waiting for tech support to call me back. I'm also waiting for the
second coming of Jesus. Wanna take bets on which happens first?

Chris "Saundo" Saunderson

unread,

Jul 2, 2002, 10:16:49 PM7/2/02

to

Lionel <n...@alt.net> wrote in
news:3373iucdibngejo04...@4ax.com:

> Word has it that on Tue, 02 Jul 2002 02:09:39 GMT,
> in this august forum, "Chris \"Saundo\" Saunderson"

> <sau...@earthlink.net> said:
>
>>I was thinking more of Blackadder..
>>
>>"Your Majesty is like a stream of bat's piss"
>>"WHAT?!"
>>"Shining out as a beacon of gold from the darkness".
>>
>>But that's just me.
>

> It must be, seeing as that is MP, not Black Adder.
> ;)

Tis true, I admit I got my humour crossed. My original
quote-to-follow-up-with was definitely Blackadder -

"Life without you, Your Majesty, is like a broken pencil.."
"How so, Lord Blackadder?"
"Pointless".

I blame the long hours of mindless torture at -ork.

David P. Murphy

unread,

Jul 3, 2002, 10:12:31 AM7/3/02

to

Dave Brown <dagb...@lart.ca> wrote:
> In article <FomU8.2228$R54.68...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com>,

> Mike Andrews <mi...@mikea.ath.cx> wrote:
> : AndyC the WB <andy...@nospam.yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> : > If you've never tried it, google for your own name sometime.
> :

> : In my case, it appears I've lived everywhere, know everyone, and
> : have done everything. _Fascinating_

> Piker. You haven't done a quarter as much as I have.

> --Dave Brown, hatsmith to the stars!

Treat me with respect appropriate for a true Renaissance Man, as I am:

David P. Murphy, the systems programmer
David P. Murphy, the songwriter/performer
David P. Murphy, the waterfowl hunting guide
David P. Murphy, the petrophysical engineering and economics instructor
David P. Murphy, the MD at the Virginia Urology Center
David P. Murphy, the project manager
David P. Murphy, President of the Midwest Higher Education Commission

In fact, I keep links to those other guys on my home page, and have done so
for several years now.

ok
dpm
--
David P. Murphy http://www.myths.com/~dpm/
systems programmer ftp://ftp.myths.com
mailto:d...@myths.com (personal)
COGITO ERGO DISCLAMO mailto:Murphy...@emc.com (work)

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

unread,

Jul 3, 2002, 12:04:39 PM7/3/02

to

In <ufzz2q...@hiddendomain.com>, on 07/02/2002

at 04:27 PM, AndyC the WB <andy...@NOSPAM.yahoo.co.uk> said:

>I'm really tempted to put up a page with
>the same title and keywords and a picture of a rare steak and the
>caption "Vegan cookery: just say no"[2].

So how much does beef cost around Vega?

Coat? It's the rate one over the grill.

Omri Schwarz

unread,

Jul 3, 2002, 2:21:55 PM7/3/02

to

"Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz" <spam...@library.lspace.org.invalid> writes:

> In <ufzz2q...@hiddendomain.com>, on 07/02/2002
> at 04:27 PM, AndyC the WB <andy...@NOSPAM.yahoo.co.uk> said:
>
> >I'm really tempted to put up a page with
> >the same title and keywords and a picture of a rare steak and the
> >caption "Vegan cookery: just say no"[2].
>
> So how much does beef cost around Vega?

On the house, if you're at the right vegas and
in a high rolling mood..

Coat? No coat. Just the soot-encrusted gas mask, thank you.
--
Omri Schwarz --- ocs...@mit.edu ('h' before war)
Timeless wisdom of biomedical engineering: "Noise is principally
due to the presence of the patient." -- R.F. Farr

Alan J Rosenthal

unread,

Jul 3, 2002, 4:47:50 PM7/3/02

to

d...@myths.com (David P. Murphy) writes:
>Treat me with respect appropriate for a true Renaissance Man, as I am:
>
> David P. Murphy, the systems programmer
> David P. Murphy, the songwriter/performer
> David P. Murphy, the waterfowl hunting guide

...

>In fact, I keep links to those other guys on my home page,

http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/otherunix.html
"The Unix container's unique shape saves space and ensures even refrigeration."

AndyC the WB

unread,

Jul 4, 2002, 4:13:27 AM7/4/02

to

>>>>> "Omri" == Omri Schwarz <ocs...@h-after-ocsc.mit.edu> writes:

Omri> "Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz"
Omri> <spam...@library.lspace.org.invalid> writes:

Well, when I suggested googling for your own name I half-expected a
bunch of replies to the effect that I sounded like a newbie who had
just discovered Google and got bored with typing rude words!

Thank you all for cheering up a poor overworked BoFH.

AndyC

David P. Murphy

unread,

Jul 5, 2002, 12:32:20 AM7/5/02

to

AndyC the WB <andy...@nospam.yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> Well, when I suggested googling for your own name I half-expected a
> bunch of replies to the effect that I sounded like a newbie who had
> just discovered Google and got bored with typing rude words!

Nah, we know that we've all done that at some point in our sad, sodden,
miserable godforsaken adminning lives, so what's it matter that you did too?

Besides, my excuse is name collision avoidance.

Ralph Wade Phillips

unread,

Jul 5, 2002, 12:36:37 AM7/5/02

to

Grr ...

"David P. Murphy" <d...@myths.com> wrote in message
news:ag37gk$ukd$4...@allhats.xcski.com...

> AndyC the WB <andy...@nospam.yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Well, when I suggested googling for your own name I half-expected a
> > bunch of replies to the effect that I sounded like a newbie who had
> > just discovered Google and got bored with typing rude words!
>
> Nah, we know that we've all done that at some point in our sad, sodden,
> miserable godforsaken adminning lives, so what's it matter that you did
too?

Huh. Seems like the most common links to me are to my stint as a
cartoon character at Warner Brothers ...

(Saddest is that the character actually DOES sound somewhat like me
as a child ... sigh.)

>
> Besides, my excuse is name collision avoidance.

Yah. Sure. Whatever you say.

RwP

Thayne Forbes

unread,

Jul 5, 2002, 1:31:52 AM7/5/02

to

Ralph Wade Phillips <ral...@techie.com> wrote:
> "David P. Murphy" <d...@myths.com> wrote in message

>> Besides, my excuse is name collision avoidance.

> Yah. Sure. Whatever you say.

I still boggle at the thought that there is namespace collision on my
name. Some poor sod at PacBell. Thank Budha he doesn't have a web
page and never posts.

The best thing about Vanity Surfing? Finding someone .sig filing you.
The Worst thing? Realizing I used to be much wittier. (and nasty).

--
Thayne Forbes tha...@xmission.com
http://www.xmission.com/~thayne/
It's very refreshing if your real life is filled with morons,
because here on the Net it's a completely different world.

Maarten Wiltink

unread,

Jul 5, 2002, 3:29:19 PM7/5/02

to

Jasper Janssen wrote in message ...

Earlier this week, for the first time in my life, I was in the
position of taking a laptop from work home with me.

There are two good reasons why I do not care to repeat this.

First, the thing was _heavy_. It must have weighed a few kilos
at least and was definitely no fun to carry.

Second, it was meant for me to work on. This might not be all
bad (I rather like some parts of my work), but the work was to
see if I could get it to let me log into it again. You see,
this was an already-misbehaved[0] NT machine that, in trying to
fix it, I had taught that there was exactly nobody with the right
to "log on locally".

This is a _very_ effective way to turn a working[0] computer into
a doorstop.

Tebrgwrf,
Maarten Wiltink

[0] Yes, yes, I know.
[1] How do you pronounce "poeople"?

Steve VanDevender

unread,

Jul 7, 2002, 2:54:58 PM7/7/02

to

fl...@dgp.toronto.edu (Alan J Rosenthal) writes:

> Remember that the purpose of the TLP is to find _unoccupied_ toilets.
> Hence the value of a protocol which doesn't signal if the toilet is occupied.

It would be a somewhat difficult problem to solve well, but I would love
to have a system where a wheelchair accessible stall not occupied by a
wheelchair user (or other disabled user for whom it was appropriate)
could be equipped with a remotely-triggered ejection system.

Most restrooms have only one accessible stall, and the number of times
where I find it occupied by someone for whom any stall would work,
whereas for me it's the only one I can use, is well above that indicated
by any reasonable probability analysis.

--
Steve VanDevender "I ride the big iron" http://jcomm.uoregon.edu/~stevev
ste...@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu PGP keyprint 4AD7AF61F0B9DE87 522902969C0A7EE8
Little things break, circuitry burns / Time flies while my little world turns
Every day comes, every day goes / 100 years and nobody shows -- Happy Rhodes

Mike Andrews

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Jul 7, 2002, 3:06:20 PM7/7/02

to

Steve VanDevender <ste...@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu> wrote:

: fl...@dgp.toronto.edu (Alan J Rosenthal) writes:

:> Remember that the purpose of the TLP is to find _unoccupied_ toilets.
:> Hence the value of a protocol which doesn't signal if the toilet is occupied.

: It would be a somewhat difficult problem to solve well, but I would love
: to have a system where a wheelchair accessible stall not occupied by a
: wheelchair user (or other disabled user for whom it was appropriate)
: could be equipped with a remotely-triggered ejection system.

: Most restrooms have only one accessible stall, and the number of times
: where I find it occupied by someone for whom any stall would work,
: whereas for me it's the only one I can use, is well above that indicated
: by any reasonable probability analysis.

In the fifteen or so years that $LATE_WIFE was in a wheelchair,
I was privileged to assist her in getting into zillions of
women's johns, into the "handicapped" stalls, and out again.
"Handicapped- accessible" does _NOT_ mean that a handicapped
person, even with assistance from someone else, can get a
wheelchair sufficiently into the stall to permit a transfer.

That's in the cases where it was even possible to get a chair
into the john, anyway. A bunch of them, even in places that ought
to know better, are set up to make entry via wheelchair very,
very difficult.

A _great_ many times, I found myself standing her up, peeling her
duds down, and then waltzing her, standing and supported only by
me, three to nine feet over to the pot -- because I couldn't get
the chair any closer.

Steve hasn't said any of this, but I've been there as a proxy,
"Handicapped-accessible" stuff that _isn't_ just chaps the _FSCK_
out of me.

--
"We live in the interface between radioactive molten rock and hard
vacuum and we worry about safety."
-- A friend of Steve Vanevender

Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>

unread,

Jul 7, 2002, 4:16:38 PM7/7/02

to

Steve VanDevender <ste...@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu> writes:
>
> Most restrooms have only one accessible stall, and the number of
> times where I find it occupied by someone for whom any stall would
> work, whereas for me it's the only one I can use, is well above that
> indicated by any reasonable probability analysis.

I generally use the handicapped stall because a) there is no-one in my
building in a wheel-chair--in fact, I've not seen one over the last
four years (and thus the probability of the stall being needed is
extraordinarily remote) and b) it's much more comfortable than the
mini-micro stall they have for general use. The mini-micro stall is
so small that one typically bruises one's elbows pulling up one's
pants.

--
He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy
from oppression. --Thomas Paine

Steve VanDevender

unread,

Jul 7, 2002, 8:48:38 PM7/7/02

to

ru...@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ru...@4dv.net>) writes:

> I generally use the handicapped stall because a) there is no-one in my
> building in a wheel-chair--in fact, I've not seen one over the last
> four years (and thus the probability of the stall being needed is
> extraordinarily remote) and b) it's much more comfortable than the
> mini-micro stall they have for general use. The mini-micro stall is
> so small that one typically bruises one's elbows pulling up one's
> pants.

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.

If I ever meet you in person, remind me to LART you within an inch of
your life. For that matter, any of you other Bastards who haven't
killfiled this moron yet are welcome to clop him upside the head if you
ever see him.

Guess what? There are an awful lot more goddamn fuckheads like you out
there than there are disabled people. Which is exactly why I find
goddamn fuckheads like you occupying the only stall _I_ can fit into in
a restroom. Just because you don't see those people doesn't mean they
don't exist. Although in your case I wouldn't be surprised if you have
some selective blindness.

The accessible stalls aren't there for your personal comfort, luser. If
you have trouble using the non-accessible stalls, think about how much
trouble _I_ have. Oh, wait, that's assuming you think at all, which is
clearly not the case given the line of "reasoning" you provide above.

I could rant more but I just don't have time right now.

Steve VanDevender

unread,

Jul 7, 2002, 8:52:01 PM7/7/02

to

mi...@mikea.ath.cx (Mike Andrews) writes:

> Steve hasn't said any of this, but I've been there as a proxy,
> "Handicapped-accessible" stuff that _isn't_ just chaps the _FSCK_
> out of me.

Oh, yes. Local standards varied quite a bit before there was a Federal
standard, and places with new construction tend to have better
facilities, as the requirements for "accessible" have improved
significantly over the years.

Keith A. Glass

unread,

Jul 7, 2002, 9:04:11 PM7/7/02

to

On 07 Jul 2002 17:48:38 -0700, Steve VanDevender
<ste...@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu> wrote:

>ru...@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ru...@4dv.net>) writes:
>
>> I generally use the handicapped stall because a) there is no-one in my
>> building in a wheel-chair--in fact, I've not seen one over the last
>> four years (and thus the probability of the stall being needed is
>> extraordinarily remote) and b) it's much more comfortable than the
>> mini-micro stall they have for general use. The mini-micro stall is
>> so small that one typically bruises one's elbows pulling up one's
>> pants.
>
>GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.
>
>If I ever meet you in person, remind me to LART you within an inch of
>your life. For that matter, any of you other Bastards who haven't
>killfiled this moron yet are welcome to clop him upside the head if you
>ever see him.
>
>Guess what? There are an awful lot more goddamn fuckheads like you out
>there than there are disabled people. Which is exactly why I find
>goddamn fuckheads like you occupying the only stall _I_ can fit into in
>a restroom. Just because you don't see those people doesn't mean they
>don't exist. Although in your case I wouldn't be surprised if you have
>some selective blindness.
>
>The accessible stalls aren't there for your personal comfort, luser. If
>you have trouble using the non-accessible stalls, think about how much
>trouble _I_ have. Oh, wait, that's assuming you think at all, which is
>clearly not the case given the line of "reasoning" you provide above.

I'd like to LART the bastards who architected my office building. 250
people on my floor, and 225 on the floor above (and "rated" for
280/floor). One bathroom for each sex per floor. I can't speak for
the ladies bathrooms, but we've got two urinals and two toilets for
roughly 200 males. When there's a line for toilet stalls, I could
care less whether it's the handicapped-accessible one or not. If
there's a guy behind me in a wheelchair, he waits HIS turn as well . .
.

Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>

unread,

Jul 7, 2002, 11:04:06 PM7/7/02

to

Steve VanDevender <ste...@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu> writes:
>
> Guess what? There are an awful lot more goddamn fuckheads like you
> out there than there are disabled people. Which is exactly why I
> find goddamn fuckheads like you occupying the only stall _I_ can fit
> into in a restroom. Just because you don't see those people doesn't
> mean they don't exist. Although in your case I wouldn't be
> surprised if you have some selective blindness.

Did you miss the bit about not seeing a single, solitary handicapped
person in four years? Not even someone on crutches, much less in a
wheelchair. If a wheelchair did enter the bathroom, I'd gladly give
up the stall--and quickly, too. But until that happens
(approx. never, given the empirical evidence), I'll quite happily use
the more convenient one.

What are we supposed to do, preserve it as a shrine on the off-chance
that it might be needed sometime in the next decade? I'm sorry, but
no.

As I wrote, I'd quite gladly give it up were it needed.

--
Freedom does not mean freedom just for the things I think I should be
able to do. Freedom is for all of us. If people will not speak up
for other people's rights, there will come a day when they will lose
their own. --Tony Lawrence

Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>

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Jul 7, 2002, 11:06:59 PM7/7/02

to

dagb...@LART.ca (Dave Brown) writes:
>
> I wonder why the much-more-comfy higher-up toilets aren't standard
> everywhere, though--why are they reserved for disabled people when
> they're good for everyone?

I assume that the owners of the building I work at chose far-too-small
standard stalls for the same reason they chose far-too-small car-park
spots: it's more economical. Never mind that one's car is constantly
getting dinged, and that one's elbows and knees (should one use the
standard stalls) are constantly bruised.

--
Virtues foster one another; so too, vices. Bad English kills trees,
consumes energy, and befouls the Earth. Good English renews it.
--The Underground Grammarian

Steve VanDevender

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Jul 8, 2002, 12:19:56 AM7/8/02

to

dagb...@LART.ca (Dave Brown) writes:

> I wonder why the much-more-comfy higher-up toilets aren't standard
> everywhere, though--why are they reserved for disabled people when
> they're good for everyone?

Personally, I don't find the raised toilets all that helpful, but they
are part of the standard for some reason.

I too would prefer that they just make all the stalls an accessible
size so the lusers would no longer see the one "luxury-size" stall and
zero in on it.

Of course, the common situation is that an existing building has to be
retrofitted to modern accessibility standards, so respacing all the
toilets etc. makes an expensive remodel prohibitively expensive, and it
ends up being sufficiently compliant and much cheaper to do only one.

Zebee Johnstone

unread,

Jul 8, 2002, 12:34:00 AM7/8/02

to

In alt.sysadmin.recovery on Mon, 08 Jul 2002 03:04:06 GMT

Robert Uhl <ru...@4dv.net> <ru...@4dv.net> wrote:
>Steve VanDevender <ste...@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu> writes:
>>
>> Guess what? There are an awful lot more goddamn fuckheads like you
>> out there than there are disabled people. Which is exactly why I
>> find goddamn fuckheads like you occupying the only stall _I_ can fit
>> into in a restroom. Just because you don't see those people doesn't
>> mean they don't exist. Although in your case I wouldn't be
>> surprised if you have some selective blindness.
>
>Did you miss the bit about not seeing a single, solitary handicapped
>person in four years? Not even someone on crutches, much less in a

You clearly missed the bit about "Just because you don't see those

people doesn't mean they don't exist."

Read it again, carefully.

And don't be luser enough to think that only people who pass your
uninformed visual inspection are the only handicapped ones out there.

Zebee

Steve VanDevender

unread,

Jul 8, 2002, 12:42:02 AM7/8/02

to

ru...@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ru...@4dv.net>) writes:

> Steve VanDevender <ste...@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu> writes:
> >
> > Guess what? There are an awful lot more goddamn fuckheads like you
> > out there than there are disabled people. Which is exactly why I
> > find goddamn fuckheads like you occupying the only stall _I_ can fit
> > into in a restroom. Just because you don't see those people doesn't
> > mean they don't exist. Although in your case I wouldn't be
> > surprised if you have some selective blindness.
>
> Did you miss the bit about not seeing a single, solitary handicapped
> person in four years? Not even someone on crutches, much less in a
> wheelchair. If a wheelchair did enter the bathroom, I'd gladly give
> up the stall--and quickly, too. But until that happens
> (approx. never, given the empirical evidence), I'll quite happily use
> the more convenient one.
>
> What are we supposed to do, preserve it as a shrine on the off-chance
> that it might be needed sometime in the next decade? I'm sorry, but
> no.
>
> As I wrote, I'd quite gladly give it up were it needed.

This is an exercise in social thinking that you fail along with a lot of
other people.

There are probably at least a hundred people who think like you to every
disabled person. That means that those disabled people are competing
for that single accessible stall with a much larger number of people who
don't really need to use it, but all think "I never see anyone use this,
and it looks so much nicer, I think I'll use it". As the probabilities
go, the chance a disabled person will be squeezed out by any one of them
is much higher than the chance a particular one of them will be the one
to squeeze out a disabled person. For me, if there's a substantial
number of people who think like you do, then there's a noticeable chance
that some one of you will screw me over, but any one of you could go for
a very long time without being the one to screw me over. Consequently I
very much want to discourage the kind of thinking you exhibit.

Now, if I go into a busy restroom and all or most of the stalls are
occupied, including the accessible one(s), I'm not upset at the person
who chose the accessible stall, on the presumption that at the time,
chances were that person had no other choice. But when I go into a
restroom and _only_ the accessible stall is occupied, I consider it
pretty good odds that the person in that stall is a clod.

Zebee Johnstone

unread,

Jul 8, 2002, 4:12:31 AM7/8/02

to

In alt.sysadmin.recovery on 8 Jul 2002 07:58:25 GMT
Juergen Nieveler <juergen....@web.de> wrote:

>ze...@zip.com.au (Zebee Johnstone) wrote:
>
>> You clearly missed the bit about "Just because you don't see those
>> people doesn't mean they don't exist."
>>
>> Read it again, carefully.
>

>I read it, and will now look out more closely for invisible wheelchair
>drivers.

Why are you assuming that only those in wheelchairs need a larger
space?

Why are you assuming that someone you see without wheelchair or
crutches is not, for example, wearing a full body brace and so needs
extra room and a handrail?

Ignorance or stupidity?

Or just wanting to pretend that it's OK for you to abuse the system,
and preferring to be seen as ignorant or stupid so you can keep doing
it?

Zebee

Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>

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Jul 8, 2002, 12:26:18 PM7/8/02

to

Juergen Nieveler <juergen....@web.de> writes:
>
> I read it, and will now look out more closely for invisible wheelchair
> drivers.

LOL

> $DEITYDAMNIT, there ARE companies in which nobody is sitting in a
> wheelchair - the one I work in, for example[0]. It's quite possible
> that no wheelchair has ever set a wheel into Roberts company, maybe
> not even a customer or visitor in a wheelchair[1].
>
> So WHY shouldn't people use the handicapped-stall if nobody else is
> going to need it within the next 5 minutes, or even 4 years?

I should also point out that my building is pretty well-endowed ont he
toilet front. We've some 16 men's toilets and 24 women's toilets for
about 240 or so employees, most of whom are women (and hence whom I
cannot inconvenience). The toilets are so under-used that I can
indulge my own preference not to use a bathroom when others are
therein.

unread,

Jul 8, 2002, 3:23:11 PM7/8/02

to

Juergen Nieveler <juergen....@web.de> writes:

> ru...@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ru...@4dv.net>) wrote in
> news:m3d6tyu...@latakia.dyndns.org:

>
> >> [0] No access ramps or handicapped-toilets, either.
> >
> > That's a shame; I'm very much in support of those things, if only
> > because anyone can require a wheelchair, say temporarily. Or would
> > you just get the time off to recuperate? But still it seems awfully
> > unfair to those who are handicapped.
>

> Old buildings - from around WW2. There simply isn't space for access
> ramps, sad as this is.

My one trip to Germany, pleasant as it was, did not show me that Germany
is in general particularly good at accessibility. Some of that is just
due to having much older buildings than are typical in the U.S., but
from what I could tell social attitudes are a bit different there too.

> Besides, people in wheelchairs would be limited to desk jobs - paint
> production isn't really something that handicaped people can do, what
> with lifting heavy sacks of $stuff and all.

Like the ones you reflect here -- "people in wheelchairs would be
limited to desk jobs", hmmph. I probably wouldn't go for a job where I
had to lift heavy stacks of stuff, but I am not necessarily incapable of
lifting heavy sacks of stuff. If you assume that disabled people are
all incapable of physical activity, you assume wrong.

> Same goes for parts of IT - I have never seen a wheelchair-compatible
> server room.

There are probably a lot of ways in which our machine room is not
strictly accessible to Federal standards (which would probably have
conniptions about things like removable raised floor tiles anyway), but
I go in and work in our machine room just fine in my wheelchair. My
orkplace has been good about considering the aspects of equipment
placement that would affect my ability to work on things I need to work
on. It hasn't even required any particularly significant relocation of
equipment.

--
Steve VanDevender "I ride the big iron" http://jcomm.uoregon.edu/~stevev
ste...@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu PGP keyprint 4AD7AF61F0B9DE87 522902969C0A7EE8

"bash awk grep perl sed df du, du-du du-du,
vi troff su fsck rm * halt LART LART LART!" -- the Swedish BOFH

Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>

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Jul 8, 2002, 4:02:03 PM7/8/02

to

Juergen Nieveler <juergen....@web.de> writes:
>
> The floor in all swerver rooms I've seen so far wasn't the problem.
> But I don't know how anybody in a wheelchair would be able to reach
> the upper servers in a rack.

But how often is that done, as opposed to simply sitting at a console
(of course, once we get the serial server put in, we'll almost _never_
need to go into the raised floor)?

Is this coming to close to unrecovery? I suppose if I have to ask it
prob. has...

--
If your enemy comes to speak bearing a sword, open your door to him and
speak, but keep your own sword at hand. If he comes to you empty
handed, greet him the same wway. But if he comes to you bearing gifts,
stand on your walls and cast stones down on him. --Tad Williams

djohnson

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Jul 8, 2002, 5:50:31 PM7/8/02

to

Steve VanDevender On 07 Jul 2002 21:42:02 -0700 wrote,

>This is an exercise in social thinking that you fail along with a lot of
>other people.
>
>There are probably at least a hundred people who think like you to every
>disabled person. That means that those disabled people are competing
>for that single accessible stall with a much larger number of people who
>don't really need to use it, but all think "I never see anyone use this,
>and it looks so much nicer, I think I'll use it". As the probabilities
>go, the chance a disabled person will be squeezed out by any one of them
>is much higher than the chance a particular one of them will be the one
>to squeeze out a disabled person. For me, if there's a substantial
>number of people who think like you do, then there's a noticeable chance
>that some one of you will screw me over, but any one of you could go for
>a very long time without being the one to screw me over. Consequently I
>very much want to discourage the kind of thinking you exhibit.

I think the argument is what cost/benefit ratio is reasonable.
Inconvenience is a cost. It makes sense for new public buildings to
be accessible. Disabled people should not have to wait until they get
home to use the bathroom. It doesn't make sense to force me to
install wheelchair lifts in my 80 year old house, to cover the chance
that I have a disabled guest. Non-disabled using the accessible
stall is somewhere in between those extremes. If I think that there
is a significant chance I'll be inconveniencing a disabled person,
I'll put up with a too-low seat and too-narrow walls. "Significant
chance" would include a disabled co-worker, or seeing a male in a
wheelchair in the usage area of a bathroom. The one time in my life
I've seen a wheelchair in a bathroom doesn't lead me to believe that
the chance is significant in other circumstances.

I'm willing to listen to arguments that there are more invisible
disabilities that require the accessible stall than I'm aware of, but
I haven't been convinced yet. If I ever witness someone (wheelchair
or no) waiting for the accessible stall when there's a free and
reasonably sanitary normal stall, I'll rethink the odds.

--

...computers *still* are profoundly brittle and stupid,
they are simply vastly more subtle in their stupidity and
brittleness. (Bruce Sterling, "The Hacker Crackdown)

Trainee

unread,

Jul 8, 2002, 7:11:03 PM7/8/02

to

"djohnson" <djohns...@spamblocked.com> wrote in message
news:uppjiugnqogj2d17l...@4ax.com...

> Steve VanDevender On 07 Jul 2002 21:42:02 -0700 wrote,
>
>
> >This is an exercise in social thinking that you fail along with a lot of
> >other people.
> >
> >There are probably at least a hundred people who think like you to every
> >disabled person. That means that those disabled people are competing
> >for that single accessible stall with a much larger number of people who
> >don't really need to use it, but all think "I never see anyone use this,

> >and it looks so much nicer, I think I'll use it". [snip]
>
> [snip] I'm willing to listen to arguments that there are more invisible

> disabilities that require the accessible stall than I'm aware of, but
> I haven't been convinced yet. If I ever witness someone (wheelchair
> or no) waiting for the accessible stall when there's a free and
> reasonably sanitary normal stall, I'll rethink the odds.

The 'disabled' stalls have features in them essential for people with
a wide variety of physical challenges, not the least of which are the
handrails for those with limited mobility. Many employees with
physical challenges choose not to advertise that fact, for all the
obvious reasons, and therefore do not depend on wheelchairs.

Someone with a prosthetic leg, for example, might need the extra
space so that the prosthesis didn't protrude under the door, and
the handrails to allow them to sit without unlocking the joint.

You do not need to find someone waiting for the Accessible stall
to know that it's needed: simple observe the number of bent toilet
paper holders and/or pipes in the "normal" stalls. Every defect
is due to a physically-challenged person having to make do while
someone else was in the Accessible stall.

William

Paul Tomblin

unread,

Jul 8, 2002, 7:27:55 PM7/8/02

to

In a previous article, "Ralph Wade Phillips" <ral...@techie.com> said:
> I have used the handicapped stall (when there were NON-handicapped
>stalls!) only three times in my life.

As a frequent wheel chair user and a person with an invisible handicap the
rest of the time (people don't see chronic pain), I don't see the need to
keep the handicapped stall free when the others are in use. Most
handicaps don't preclude the ability to wait your damn turn like everybody
else. If there are handicapped people waiting, then by all means let them
go to the front of the line for the handicapped stall, and if there are
other empty stalls take them first, but otherwise it's fair game.

Remember, handicapped access is about *equal* access, not preferential
treatment.

--
Paul Tomblin <ptom...@xcski.com>, not speaking for anybody
Why do programmers get Halloween and Christmas mixed up?
Because OCT(31) == DEC(25)

Ralph Wade Phillips

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Jul 8, 2002, 10:14:48 PM7/8/02

to

Grr ...

"Juergen Nieveler" <juergen....@web.de> wrote in message
news:Xns9245DB403ABA...@nieveler-43544.user.cis.dfn.de...
> Steve VanDevender <ste...@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu> wrote in
> news:x71yaeh...@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu:

>
> > Like the ones you reflect here -- "people in wheelchairs would be
> > limited to desk jobs", hmmph. I probably wouldn't go for a job where
> > I had to lift heavy stacks of stuff, but I am not necessarily
> > incapable of lifting heavy sacks of stuff. If you assume that
> > disabled people are all incapable of physical activity, you assume
> > wrong.
>

> I'm not saying that they are incapable of lifting heavy stuff - but
> I'm certain that lifting a 25kg sack of TiO2 over shoulder height and
> dumping the contents into a huge industrial mixer is beyond their
> power.

Over WHOSE shoulder? Do you mean over 5 foot over ground level, or
just over THEIR shoulder?

That do make a difference ... A lot of the "wheels" around here tend
to be rather healthy in the upper body (being as how electrics don't work so
well when the battery goes flat ... )

OTOH, I know of one gent who lost both hands during Vietnam (hint:
Do NOT try to deactivate a booby trap when you're half drunk) and qualifies
for "Handicapped". The iron grips he uses would probably do MUCH better
than a normal hand at handling that TiO2 bag ...

RwP

Satya

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Jul 9, 2002, 6:01:21 AM7/9/02

to

On 9 Jul 2002 07:40:00 GMT, Juergen Nieveler <juergen....@web.de> wrote:
>handicapped persons, and I've even heard about blind Unix admins.

How does *that* work?

--
Satya.

Christer Mort Boräng

unread,

Jul 9, 2002, 7:42:42 AM7/9/02

to

"Trainee" <qwerty-v...@attbi.com> writes:
> You do not need to find someone waiting for the Accessible stall
> to know that it's needed: simple observe the number of bent toilet
> paper holders and/or pipes in the "normal" stalls. Every defect
> is due to a physically-challenged person having to make do while
> someone else was in the Accessible stall.

Or it's due to two people having wild sex up against the
sink, pipes, paper holders and/or the rails in the accessible stall.

Drunk students do the stupidest things...

Bogdan Iamandei [ROT13]

unread,

Jul 9, 2002, 7:53:11 AM7/9/02

to

It gets in your blood^H^H^H^H^Hcaffeine stream.

Ino!~

--
I have seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire
off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark
near the Tannhauser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time,
like tears in rain. Time to die.

Lieven Marchand

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Jul 8, 2002, 4:55:23 PM7/8/02

to

Steve VanDevender <ste...@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu> writes:

> My one trip to Germany, pleasant as it was, did not show me that Germany
> is in general particularly good at accessibility. Some of that is just
> due to having much older buildings than are typical in the U.S., but
> from what I could tell social attitudes are a bit different there too.

You can generalize that to major parts of Western Europe, I guess. I
know of quite a few government offices, open to the general public,
who are in direct violation of their own accessibility laws. Some
aren't even accessible at all. For offices only meant for personel,
it's even worse.

There's also a perverse legal system that encourages handicaped people
to live off an government allowance, since by getting a job they lose
a lot of benefits.

--
Bored, now.
Lieven Marchand <m...@wyrd.be>

David P. Murphy

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Jul 9, 2002, 12:00:58 PM7/9/02

to

Ralph Wade Phillips <ral...@techie.com> wrote:

> OTOH, I know of one gent who lost both hands during Vietnam (hint:
> Do NOT try to deactivate a booby trap when you're half drunk)

reply: I wouldn't try to deactivate a booby trap on the best day of my life.

ok
dpm
--
David P. Murphy http://www.myths.com/~dpm/
systems programmer ftp://ftp.myths.com
mailto:d...@myths.com (personal)
COGITO ERGO DISCLAMO mailto:Murphy...@emc.com (work)

David P. Murphy

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Jul 9, 2002, 12:09:39 PM7/9/02

to

Trainee <qwerty-v...@attbi.com> wrote:

> You do not need to find someone waiting for the Accessible stall
> to know that it's needed: simple observe the number of bent toilet
> paper holders and/or pipes in the "normal" stalls. Every defect
> is due to a physically-challenged person having to make do while
> someone else was in the Accessible stall.

Thank you for submitting your Generalization-of-the-Month entry.
So glad that you are utterly sure of the origin of every single defect in
every stall in every bathroom throughout the country, if not the world.

I remember a letter to the editor from a wheelchair-bound woman who
complained bitterly of having to wait for the handicapped stall while
a woman helped her {2,3}-year-old rugrat defecate, and ended up peeing
her pants. I had, and continue to have, little sympathy for her.

Omri Schwarz

unread,

Jul 9, 2002, 2:11:57 PM7/9/02

to

Juergen Nieveler <juergen....@web.de> writes:

> "Ralph Wade Phillips" <ral...@techie.com> wrote:
>

> > Over WHOSE shoulder? Do you mean over 5 foot over ground
> > level, or just over THEIR shoulder?
>

> Sorry, should have made that clearer - over the shoulder of a standing
> person.

>
> > That do make a difference ... A lot of the "wheels" around here
> > tend to be rather healthy in the upper body (being as how electrics
> > don't work so well when the battery goes flat ... )
>

> I know that people in wheelchairs have very strong arms - but imagine
> the workload of an industrial worker that is normally spread on arms
> and legs now being put only into the arms... even though some of the
> work could for a certain time be done by people in wheelchairs, they
> would after a couple of years start to suffer from various problems
> with the shoulder and elbow joints.

Umm hmm. BTDTGTTS, got screamed at by my foreman
every time he saw me lifting not with my legs.

--
Omri Schwarz --- ocs...@mit.edu ('h' before war)
Timeless wisdom of biomedical engineering: "Noise is principally
due to the presence of the patient." -- R.F. Farr

Omri Schwarz

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Jul 9, 2002, 2:27:32 PM7/9/02

to

sat...@satyaonline.cjb.net (Satya) writes:

Better than blind $OS admins, for
values of $OS other than the Unix family.

A friend of mine who is blind uses a speech generator hooked
up with an emacs process. Everything he does is in one of his
buffers.

Works more efficiently than I do.

Mike Andrews

unread,

Jul 9, 2002, 12:49:33 PM7/9/02

to

David P. Murphy <d...@myths.com> wrote:

: I remember a letter to the editor from a wheelchair-bound woman who

: complained bitterly of having to wait for the handicapped stall while
: a woman helped her {2,3}-year-old rugrat defecate, and ended up peeing
: her pants. I had, and continue to have, little sympathy for her.

If by "her" you mean the wheelchair-bound woman, then you have
succeeded in placing yourself somewhat lower in my estimation
than you were before I read your post.

--
What I hit F to say, though, is that there's more than one way to gain
respect. When you've got a major nest of Monks by the upstream IP feed,
their hearts and minds will follow.
-- AdB, in asr

unread,

Jul 9, 2002, 6:01:18 PM7/9/02

to

On Wed, 10 Jul 2002 02:14:36 +1000, Lionel <n...@alt.net> wrote:
>Word has it that on Tue, 9 Jul 2002 03:01:21 -0700, in this august

>You'd be surprised at how well a text to speech or text to Braille
>converter copes with a text only interface.

I am surprised that they work well enough. I guess I'm a few years behind
the tech.

--
Satya.

Keith A. Glass

unread,

Jul 9, 2002, 7:00:37 PM7/9/02

to

On Tue, 09 Jul 2002 22:24:03 GMT, dagb...@LART.ca (Dave Brown) wrote:

>So, uh. I keep seeing people complaining about stalls being too
>small.
>
>Now, as anyone who has met me knows, I am not a small guy.
>However, the "stall too small" problem is not something I've come
>across, except in one of my favorite local bars, and those stalls
>don't even pretend to be accessible anyways, since they're at the
>bottom of a flight of stairs. "Stall too small" wasn't even a
>problem for me in Japan, which made up for it by making everything
>else much too small, except for the city of Matsumoto.
>
>Are stalls in the USA particularly tiny or something? Or are
>there a lot of Americans who are quite a lot bigger than I am?

I think it's more a thing about orkplace real estate being expensive,
and thus building owners want as little non-revenue-generating space
as possibile.

Keith A. Glass

unread,

Jul 9, 2002, 6:57:41 PM7/9/02

to

On Tue, 09 Jul 2002 20:25:19 GMT, Joe Zeff
<the.guy.with....@lasfs.org> wrote:

>There's a scandalous rumor that Juergen Nieveler

><juergen....@web.de> wrote:
>
>>Lieven Marchand <m...@wyrd.be> wrote in news:87elee9...@wyrd.be:
>>

>>> There's also a perverse legal system that encourages handicaped people
>>> to live off an government allowance, since by getting a job they lose
>>> a lot of benefits.
>>

>>While at the same time companies that employ less than x% of
>>handicapped people have to pay a yearly fine, at least in .de
>

>OK, reductio ad absurdum time. How about a House of Ill Repute? How
>many customers do you think would be interested in a handicapped
>whore? Or, an establishment for the satisfaction of $KINK? Unless,
>of course, in the second case, you define anybody willing to ork in

>such a place handicapped[1] by definition.
>

>[1]mentally or emotionally

Actually, I recall a story, not sure if it's an Urban Legend or not,
about a woman who supposedly sued under the Americans with
Disabilities Act, because she couldn't be a stripper. Seems that
the "shower" the strippers performed in wasn't wheelchair-accessible.

http://www.hlefty.com/phillip/frame_disabilities.html

kesi...@math.ttu.edu

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Jul 9, 2002, 6:49:43 PM7/9/02

to

David P. Murphy <d...@myths.com> wrote:

: Ralph Wade Phillips <ral...@techie.com> wrote:

:> OTOH, I know of one gent who lost both hands during Vietnam (hint:
:> Do NOT try to deactivate a booby trap when you're half drunk)

: reply: I wouldn't try to deactivate a booby trap on the best day of my life.

I'd deactivate it with whomever was annoying me most at the time.

==Jake

Michael Hinz

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Jul 9, 2002, 7:43:53 PM7/9/02

to

d...@myths.com (David P. Murphy) writes:
> I remember a letter to the editor from a wheelchair-bound woman who
> complained bitterly of having to wait for the handicapped stall while
> a woman helped her {2,3}-year-old rugrat defecate, and ended up peeing
> her pants. I had, and continue to have, little sympathy for her.

O...K...

This makes sense in two directions, related to the "she" you refer to
with that last "her".

The woman with the rugrat: that's the obvious choice, so I won't discuss
her any further.

The woman in the wheelchair: well, let's just remind ourselves of one
of the main themes of sysadminning - "Your lack of planning does not
make it my emergency". If she really peed her pants she was too late
to begin with. Let's just take it one hypothetical step further: what
if the rugrat was *another* handicapped person occupying the handicap-
stall? Because lines in front of toilets *do* happen.

Besides, having toilet-trained three kids I have to tell you that kids
that age *are* handicapped when it comes to going to the toilet. They
have to go *now*, *this instant*. If you can't see that, how can you
*demand* that people see other "invisible" handicaps.

See? Logic is *fierce*, I tell you ;)

Michael
--
Pigs: 3
Nelson: 1

st...@madcelt.org

unread,

Jul 9, 2002, 7:49:14 PM7/9/02

to

At a random point in time Joe Zeff <the.guy.with....@lasfs.org> blathered insanely:

> There's a scandalous rumor that d...@myths.com (David P. Murphy) wrote:

>>Ralph Wade Phillips <ral...@techie.com> wrote:
>>
>>> OTOH, I know of one gent who lost both hands during Vietnam (hint:
>>> Do NOT try to deactivate a booby trap when you're half drunk)
>>
>>reply: I wouldn't try to deactivate a booby trap on the best day of my life.
>>

> I would! I'd stand off at $RANGE and deactivate it with a rifle.

s/rifle/luser/
I mean, they've got to useful for something

--
Stevo st...@madcelt.org
If it doesn't involve a plunger or a perker, i'm not interested
Erika, being quoted WAY out of context

Earl Grey

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Jul 9, 2002, 8:02:01 PM7/9/02

to

Juergen Nieveler wrote:

> - Furyy bayl

Wouldn't have it any other way....

> - Oenvyyr vagresnpr

be Grkg2Fcrrpu?

--
They tell me that you're going to try posting to Alt.Sysadmin.Recovery.
It's a Magnificent Idea; A Daring and Splendid Idea! It will be FUN!
Assuming you're not vaporized, dissected, or otherwise killed in an
assortment of supremely horrible and painful ways! Exciting, Isn't It?!

Alexander Schreiber

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Jul 9, 2002, 8:36:55 PM7/9/02

to

st...@madcelt.org <st...@madcelt.org> wrote:
>At a random point in time Joe Zeff <the.guy.with....@lasfs.org> blathered insanely:
>> There's a scandalous rumor that d...@myths.com (David P. Murphy) wrote:
>
>>>Ralph Wade Phillips <ral...@techie.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> OTOH, I know of one gent who lost both hands during Vietnam (hint:
>>>> Do NOT try to deactivate a booby trap when you're half drunk)
>>>
>>>reply: I wouldn't try to deactivate a booby trap on the best day of my life.
>>>
>
>> I would! I'd stand off at $RANGE and deactivate it with a rifle.
>
>s/rifle/luser/
>I mean, they've got to useful for something

Yeah, and get luser splattered all over the place. Not a good idea IMHO.

Regards,
Alex.
--
Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not
have, nor do they deserve, either one. -- Benjamin Franklin

Robert Uhl <ruhl@4dv.net>

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Jul 9, 2002, 8:56:36 PM7/9/02

to

dagb...@LART.ca (Dave Brown) writes:
>
> Are stalls in the USA particularly tiny or something? Or are there
> a lot of Americans who are quite a lot bigger than I am?

My first thought that you must be from Europe, and thus what you find
acceptable is a touch on the small side for Americans, but then I saw
that your domain is .ca. So I've no idea.

Perhaps Canadians are too polite to notice that stalls are too small?

--
German: Stop taking about the war!
Basil Fawlty: You started it!
German: We did not!
Basil: Yes you did, you invaded Poland.

Ralph Wade Phillips

unread,

Jul 9, 2002, 10:56:34 PM7/9/02

to

Grr ...

"Lionel" <n...@alt.net> wrote in message
news:q33niu0fhikf64a17...@4ax.com...

> Are you kidding? The first time I saw a machine[0] kitted out with a
> speech synthesiser for CLI work was some 12 years ago.
>
> [0] Early model Toshiba laptop, running an early MS-DOS.

Apple ][ had that beat. I fixed the audio amp for a sight-impaired
lawyer back in 1981 ... AUGUST 1981.

The amp was already over a year old ...

RwP

kesi...@math.ttu.edu

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Jul 9, 2002, 10:36:03 PM7/9/02

to

J.D. Forinash <spa...@forinash.net> wrote:
[mini toilets]
: I'm probably the wrong person to be noticing these things, though, since
: I'm a bit wider through the shoulders than most. [1] I'd guess people with
: frames closer to the size the design passenger cars for would notice
: this less...

I'm no shrimp, either[0], but I haven't noticed the Great Shrinking
Shitter Mystery. (That said, the Sewage Disposal Receptacle in my
apartment is located in a little alcove that I can't fit into w/o
effort, but the building's at least 39 years old).

==Jake
[0] 6'6'', pushing 300 lbs.

Suresh Ramasubramanian

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Jul 9, 2002, 11:15:13 PM7/9/02

to

Alexander Schreiber [alt.sysadmin.recovery] <10 Jul 2002 00:36:55 GMT>:

> st...@madcelt.org <st...@madcelt.org> wrote:
> >> I would! I'd stand off at $RANGE and deactivate it with a rifle.
> >s/rifle/luser/
> >I mean, they've got to useful for something
> Yeah, and get luser splattered all over the place. Not a good idea IMHO.

You can wear MOPP4 gear first

-srs

Bogdan Iamandei [ROT13]

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Jul 9, 2002, 11:57:53 PM7/9/02

to

In article <3d2b6abf....@news.speakeasy.net>, Keith A. Glass wrote:

> I think it's more a thing about orkplace real estate being expensive,
> and thus building owners want as little non-revenue-generating space
> as possibile.

ITYM "crappy revenue generating space".

Satya

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Jul 9, 2002, 11:01:19 PM7/9/02

to

On Wed, 10 Jul 2002 11:25:21 +1000, Lionel <n...@alt.net> wrote:
>Are you kidding? The first time I saw a machine[0] kitted out with a
>speech synthesiser for CLI work was some 12 years ago.

12 years ago I was a kid who was impressed by Wind*ws 3.0.

unread,

Jul 10, 2002, 11:57:55 AM7/10/02

to

In <Xns92456AA11599...@nieveler-43544.user.cis.dfn.de>,
on 07/08/2002
at 09:02 AM, Juergen Nieveler <juergen....@web.de> said:

>If no handicapped people are around, it's perfectly OK both legally
>and morally to use toilets, seats, whatever even if you're not
>handicapped.

Only when the handicapped stall is the only option. It is morally
repugnant to take the handicapped stall when other stalls are
available, unless you happen to be physically handicapped.

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

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Jul 10, 2002, 12:15:38 PM7/10/02

to

In <oghmiukc6ar5p6ode...@4ax.com>, on 07/09/2002

at 08:25 PM, Joe Zeff <the.guy.with....@lasfs.org> said:

>Unless,
>of course, in the second case, you define anybody willing to ork in
>such a place handicapped[1] by definition.

1. Her customers understand the service she provides.

2. Her customers know what they want

3. Her customers don't expect freebies

4. Her customers don't compalin that she has a hardware failure
because they got it up the last time, can't get it up now and
haven't changed a thing.

5. Her customers don't move cabling around and then complain
because it no longer works.

Well, the list goers on. Which is the real house of ill repute?

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

unread,

Jul 10, 2002, 11:53:53 AM7/10/02

to

In <m3wus65...@latakia.dyndns.org>, on 07/08/2002
at 03:04 AM, ru...@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ru...@4dv.net>) said:

>If a wheelchair did enter the bathroom, I'd gladly give up the stall

How thoughtful. It would have been even more thoughtful to take one of
the other stalls.

>What are we supposed to do, preserve it as a shrine on the off-chance
>that it might be needed sometime in the next decade?

Yes, as long as there is another empty stall.

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

unread,

Jul 10, 2002, 11:50:13 AM7/10/02

to

In <3d28e3c4....@news.speakeasy.net>, on 07/08/2002
at 01:04 AM, sal...@speakeasy.net (Keith A. Glass) said:

>If
>there's a guy behind me in a wheelchair, he waits HIS turn as well .

Yes, but the issue is the case where there are available stalls and
some ablebodied clod deliberately picks the handicapped stall instead
of using one of the other empty stalls.

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

unread,

Jul 10, 2002, 11:46:14 AM7/10/02

to

In <m3ptxzl...@latakia.dyndns.org>, on 07/07/2002
at 08:16 PM, ru...@4dv.net (Robert Uhl <ru...@4dv.net>) said:

>I generally use the handicapped stall because a) there is no-one in
>my building in a wheel-chair--in fact, I've not seen one over the
>last four years (and thus the probability of the stall being needed
>is extraordinarily remote) and b) it's much more comfortable than the
>mini-micro stall they have for general use. The mini-micro stall is
>so small that one typically bruises one's elbows pulling up one's
>pants.

It's unfortunate that you don't have a legitimate excuse. Do you also
park in reserved spaces, using a similar attempt at justifying your
selfishness? You seem to have confused "Bastard" with "bastard".

Harri J Haataja

unread,

Jul 10, 2002, 1:05:01 PM7/10/02

to

Alexander Schreiber wrote:

> st...@madcelt.org <st...@madcelt.org> wrote:
>>Joe Zeff <the.guy.with....@lasfs.org> blathered insanely:
>>> There's a scandalous rumor that d...@myths.com (David P. Murphy) wrote:
>>>>Ralph Wade Phillips <ral...@techie.com> wrote:

>>>>> OTOH, I know of one gent who lost both hands during Vietnam (hint:
>>>>> Do NOT try to deactivate a booby trap when you're half drunk)
>>>>reply: I wouldn't try to deactivate a booby trap on the best day of
>>>>my life.
>>> I would! I'd stand off at $RANGE and deactivate it with a rifle.
>>s/rifle/luser/
>>I mean, they've got to useful for something
> Yeah, and get luser splattered all over the place. Not a good idea IMHO.

Presuming the area is not particularly dear and you can avoid the
splatter yourself, sounds like a bloody good idea to me.

--
"Better to just create microsoft.my.computer.doesnt.work,
microsoft.die.die.die, microsoft.how.do.i... and
microsoft.my.internet.doesnt.work."
-- David Skinner, Scary Devil Monastery

David P. Murphy

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Jul 10, 2002, 1:05:20 PM7/10/02

to

Mike Andrews <mi...@mikea.ath.cx> wrote:
> David P. Murphy <d...@myths.com> wrote:

> : I remember a letter to the editor from a wheelchair-bound woman who

> : complained bitterly of having to wait for the handicapped stall while
> : a woman helped her {2,3}-year-old rugrat defecate, and ended up peeing
> : her pants. I had, and continue to have, little sympathy for her.

> If by "her" you mean the wheelchair-bound woman,

I do. I will refer to her as "A" and the mother as "B".

> then you have
> succeeded in placing yourself somewhat lower in my estimation
> than you were before I read your post.

. . . or I failed to describe the incident fully.

My lack of sympathy is based on her immediate need and that just because
*she* is handicapped does not mean she is the only person entitled to use
that stall (both points echoed by Michael Hinz).

Just because another stall was empty when "A" arrived does not mean that
it was so when "B" arrived, just as desperate as "A" would be.

I do have /some/ sympathy for "A", though: the same amount I would feel
for any other person, handicapped or not, who has for whatever reason
been compelled to perform a bodily function in a non-optimal manner.

ok
dpm
--
David P. Murphy http://www.myths.com/~dpm/
systems programmer ftp://ftp.myths.com
mailto:d...@myths.com (personal)
COGITO ERGO DISCLAMO mailto:Murphy...@emc.com (work)

David P. Murphy

unread,

Jul 10, 2002, 1:08:35 PM7/10/02

to

Dave Brown <dagb...@lart.ca> wrote:

> Or are
> there a lot of Americans who are quite a lot bigger than I am?

You're thinking of Springfield.