Location of Tops-10 help files.

[William Sternbach]

Hello,

Would anyone know the name of the tape which might have the detailed help for the monitor commands that will then be visible in the tops-10 v7.04 help system. Or if the help files are already on the system, are any special commands to allow the help command to have visiblity to the monitor help individual topics?

More details on the issue are listed below:

For tops-10 v7.04, having an issue with the help system.
Note, I added the Group #1 and Group#2 labels in the output of the "help *" tops-10 command below to illustrate that I have all the help info available for Group #1 below, but no help info for Group #2 below.

Group #1:
Help DIRECT works and is available for every topic for Group #1 below.

Group #2: The monitor commands:
Help is not available for any of the monitor commands
Example:
.help CLOSE
%HLPNIO No information is currently available on "CLOSE"
I get that same error for all topics from the Group #2 label below until the bottom of this email.

help *

HELP is available for the following:
#Group #1
68274 ALGDDT ALGOL ALLOCA APLSF ATTACH BACKUP BASIC BLIS10 CANCEL
CATLOG CBL74 CISTS COBDDT COMPAR CONFIG CPYLIB CREDIR CREF CRSCPY
CTHNRT DAEMDB DBINFO DBMEND DEALLO DECLAR DELFIL DIL DIRECT DISMOU
DSKRAT DTELDR FEDEL FILCOM FILEX FORDDT FORDML FORTRA FRCINI FSCOPY
GLOB HELP INITIA ISAM K10MIT KDPLDR KILL KJOB KLBPA KLEPTO
LIBARY LINK LOGIN MACRO MAKLIB MAKSYM MCBDA MERGE MIC MONITR
MOUNT MS NCP NETLDR NETTST NETWOR NFT NODNAM OPR OPSER
PASSWO PATH PIP PLEASE QUEUE QUOLST QUOTA RDREG REATTA RERUN
RMTCON RSXFMT RUNINP RUNOFF SCHEMA SED SEDONL SESSIO SETSRC SHOW
SMFILE SORT SOS SYSTAT TGHA TRACK TRMTYP UPDATE USAG10 USAH10
V3TOV5 WHO WHYCRS XLATE XLPLOT

The monitor has the following commands:
Group#2
@ ACCOUN ALLOCA ASSIGN ATTACH BACKSP BACKTO CANCEL CCONTI CLOSE
COJOB COMPIL CONTEX CONTIN COPY CORE CPUNCH CREATE CREF CSTART
CTEST DAYTIM DDT DEALLO DEASSI DEBUG DECLAR DELETE DEPOSI DETACH
DIRECT DISABL DISMOU DO DSK EDIT ENABLE EOF ERROR EXAMIN
EXECUT FILE FINISH FUDGE GET GOTO HALT HELP IF INITIA
JCONTI KJOB LABEL LET LIST LOAD LOCATE LOGIN MAIL MAKE
MERGE MIC MOUNT NETWOR NODE NOERRO NOOPER ON OPERAT PASSWO
PJOB PLEASE PLOT POP PRESER PRINT PROTEC PUNCH PUSH QUEUE
R REASSI REATTA REENTE RENAME RESOUR REVIVE REWIND RUN SAVE
SCHEDU SEND SESSIO SET SHOW SILENC SKIP SOS SSAVE START
SUBMIT SYSTAT TECO TERMIN TIME TPUNCH TTY TYPE UNLOAD USESTA
VERSIO WHENEV WHERE XCHNGE ZERO

The monitor has the following site-specific commands:
! " # MW N- NC NY #U/ #UI #V#
#WP $"( $"V $#D $$2 (]< <J4 <J^ @ !
# ' 4 @ $ 2" ! @ !0 *"" ! *B0[@N
+I #W] +I@#W] 0 @#X" 0! [@: 0" 0(B#WV 0I 5@ 41 ! 5@ #20 5@ $Z,
5@ <GU 5@ ?Y( 5C #BY 5H 5H $Z, 5P #W^ 5P #X# 5P <^[ 6 @#4T 6 @;;,
6 @?X- 6 @ASC 6 @B0D 6 @B16 6 @M!6 6(@ $ 6(@ % 68@ 6J@#0Q 8 @
81@ % 8Q@ $ ;V@[C& >H @ @ " @ $ @! @0 !* @0 [@J
@1 @9 @A ACCOUN ALLOCA ASSIGN ATTACH BACKSP BACKTO CANCEL
CCONTI CLOSE COJOB COMPIL CONTEX CONTIN COPY CORE CPUNCH CREATE
CREF CSTART CTEST DAYTIM DDT DEALLO DEASSI DEBUG DECLAR DELETE
DEPOSI DETACH DIRECT DISABL DISMOU DO DSK EDIT ENABLE EOF
ERROR EXAMIN EXECUT FILE FINISH FUDGE GET GOTO H1 #Y" HALT
HELP IF INITIA JCONTI KJOB L10[@8 LABEL LET LIST LOAD
LOCATE LOGIN M!-"SC MAIL MAKE MERGE MIC MOUNT NETWOR NODE
NOERRO NOOPER ON OPERAT PASSWO PJOB PLEASE PLOT POP PRESER
PRINT PROTEC PUNCH PUSH PZ ! QUEUE Q[\F5 R R #V= REASSI
REATTA REENTE RENAME RESOUR REVIVE REWIND RUN SAVE SCHEDU SEND
SESSIO SET SHOW SILENC SKIP SOS SSAVE START SUBMIT SYSTAT
TECO TERMIN TIME TPUNCH TTY TYPE UNLOAD USESTA V) ( VERSIO
WHENEV WHERE WRF WRJ X" 0 X#P PU X& !-_ X)@ " X)@#WX X)@#]L
X* XCHNGE ZERO _]Q_W_ ___ ______

The monitor has the following SET commands:
BLOCKS BREAK CDR CORMAX CORMIN CPU CTEST DATE DAYTIM DDT
DEFAUL DEFER DENSIT DSKFUL DSKPRI EDDT FLOATI FORMAT HOSTES HPQ
MEMORY NODEFE NOMESS OPR PHYSIC RETRY SCHEDU SPOOL TERMIN TIME
TTY VIRTUA VMMAX WATCH

The monitor has the following SET DEFAULT commands:
ACCOUN BIGBUF BUFFER PROTEC

The monitor has the following SET TTY commands:
ALTMOD BLANKS COPY CRLF DEFER DISPLA ECHO EIGHTB ESCAPE FILL
FORM GAG HOLD IGNORE ISO LC LENGTH LOCALC NO OVERST
PAGE QUOTE REMOTE RTCOMP SBELL SLAVE SPEED SSTOP STOP TABS
TAPE TYPE UC UNPAUS WIDTH XONXOF

The monitor supports the following terminal types:
DAS21 GIGI LA120 LA180 LA30 LA34 LA36 LA38 LN01S LN03
LT33 LT35 TTY TTY33 TTY35 VK100 VT05 VT06 VT100 VT101
VT102 VT103 VT125 VT131 VT180 VT185 VT200 VT220 VT240 VT241
VT300 VT320 VT330 VT340 VT50 VT52 VT61

The monitor has the following SET WATCH commands:
CONTEX DAY FILES MTA READS RUN VERSIO WAIT WRITES

.
Thanks,
Bill

[Rich Alderson]

William Sternbach <wgs...@gmail.com> writes:

> The monitor has the following site-specific commands:
> ! " # MW N- NC NY #U/ #UI #V#
> #WP $"( $"V $#D $$2 (]< <J4 <J^ @ !
> # ' 4 @ $ 2" ! @ !0 *"" ! *B0[@N
> +I #W] +I@#W] 0 @#X" 0! [@: 0" 0(B#WV 0I 5@ 41 ! 5@ #20 5@ $Z,
> 5@ <GU 5@ ?Y( 5C #BY 5H 5H $Z, 5P #W^ 5P #X# 5P <^[ 6 @#4T 6 @;;,
> 6 @?X- 6 @ASC 6 @B0D 6 @B16 6 @M!6 6(@ $ 6(@ % 68@ 6J@#0Q 8 @
> 81@ % 8Q@ $ ;V@[C& >H @ @ " @ $ @! @0 !* @0 [@J
> @1 @9 @A ACCOUN ALLOCA ASSIGN ATTACH BACKSP BACKTO CANCEL

Hmm. You built your own monitor, didn't you?

The guys (and it was humans who identified as male) who did the work to create
version 7.04 of Tops-10 did a pretty nice job, but their installation setup
*assumes* that you are installing on top of a populated 7.03 (or earlier) file
system, with locally defined commands in the monitor sources. They allocate
space for those command tables, AND DO NOT CLEAR IT.

So if you don't have locally defined commands, you get a SIXBIT interpretation
of whatever random values are present in the memory devoted to the local
command table. You can ignore all those "commands".

NB: There is a bug in the 7.04 monitor as supplied by Digital which made it
impossible to build your own if you did not have a preexisting system. (I
forget who fixed that, but it was done in the 21st Century.) Because I was
trying to get a working system on the Internet back in 2005, I gave up on
building one for the predecessor of the museum and used the monitor found on
the KLAD installation tapes, patching two things: I changed the name of the
system printed out at login, and I changed the behavior of PPNs from "all
programmer numbers with the same project number have access to all directories"
to "every PPN is unique, no automagic access allowed" (which is a parameter
that can be set in MONGEN and I would have).

--
Rich Alderson ne...@alderson.users.panix.com
Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
--Galen

[William Sternbach]

On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 9:39:14 PM UTC-4, Rich Alderson wrote:

> Rich Alderson ne...@no-spam.com

> Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
> omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
> --Galen

Hi Richard,

I had downloaded the tops704 tape from Richard Cornwell's site and used the scripts he wrote to build the disk images.
Richard Cornwell's has done a great job with the simh KL-10B emulator, and he fully supports it.
I'm also going to start experimenting with some of his other emulators.

When you mentioned this:

> So if you don't have locally defined commands, you get a SIXBIT interpretation
> of whatever random values are present in the memory devoted to the local
> command table. You can ignore all those "commands".

Did you mean the commands wouldn't work, or just the help system for those commands wouldn't have a help file.

Would you know of a tops-10 7.04 tape image that has the fixes you mentioned that were done in the 21st century.

Would you also know what else might not work on the Dec provided tops-10 7.04 tape image on a clean install of 7.04 on an empty system.

Thanks,
Bill

[Rich Alderson]

William Sternbach <wgs...@gmail.com> writes:

> I had downloaded the tops704 tape from Richard Cornwell's site and used the
> scripts he wrote to build the disk images. Richard Cornwell's has done a
> great job with the simh KL-10B emulator, and he fully supports it. I'm also
> going to start experimenting with some of his other emulators.

Rich has put in a *lot* of work over the last decade or so getting all of that
put together.

I *think* he's the one who fixed the 7.04 build problem, but you'd have to ask
him to be sure. He sometimes drops in here, so perhaps he'll confirm or deny.

> When you mentioned this:

>> So if you don't have locally defined commands, you get a SIXBIT
>> interpretation of whatever random values are present in the memory devoted
>> to the local command table. You can ignore all those "commands".

> Did you mean the commands wouldn't work, or just the help system for those
> commands wouldn't have a help file.

I mean that they *are* *not* *commands*. They're the result of random data in
memory being treated as if it were the names of commands in an empty table.

> Would you know of a tops-10 7.04 tape image that has the fixes you mentioned
> that were done in the 21st century.

Sorry, I do not. By the time it was fixed, we had been running with the KLAD
monitor for years, and I was not about to screw with success.

> Would you also know what else might not work on the Dec provided tops-10 7.04
> tape image on a clean install of 7.04 on an empty system.

Specifically, the newly built monitor will not run. It crashes when the pager
is turned on, because the mapping is incorrectly set up at an earlier step in
monitor initialization.

--
Rich Alderson ne...@alderson.users.panix.com

[Lars Brinkhoff]

Rich Alderson wrote:
> Rich [Cornwell] has put in a *lot* of work over the last decade or so

> getting all of that put together.

It's a tremendous achievement to make an emulator that supports ALL of:
PDP-6, KA10, KI10, KL10 model A/B, and KS10!!! It also runs almost all
available operating systems, which is not a foregone conclusion.

[Richard C]

Hi Rich,

Actually I install Tops 10 7.04 under a 7.03 monitor since I could not find a bootable tape of
7.04 for the KL. For the KS I boot from the available KS 7.04 monitor.

I can try comparing the sources on the KLAD tape with the monitor and see if I can apply those patches.

Rich