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Knight and SAIL keyboard replicas

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Lars Brinkhoff

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Dec 21, 2021, 3:02:09 AM12/21/21
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Hello,

I'm trying to gauge the interest in keyboard replicas. The ones I have
in mind would be modeled on the keyboard for the Knight TV, and the
similar SAIL keyboard. Apparently there's a large start-up cost for
making key caps, so the more orders the merrier.

The Knight keyboard is useful for running ITS, and the SAIL keyboard
would be really good for some of the WAITS applications.

More info here:
https://github.com/osiweb/unified_retro_keyboard/issues/37

gah4

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Dec 21, 2021, 7:48:27 AM12/21/21
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On Tuesday, December 21, 2021 at 12:02:09 AM UTC-8, lars...@nocrew.org wrote:

> I'm trying to gauge the interest in keyboard replicas. The ones I have
> in mind would be modeled on the keyboard for the Knight TV, and the
> similar SAIL keyboard. Apparently there's a large start-up cost for
> making key caps, so the more orders the merrier.

> The Knight keyboard is useful for running ITS, and the SAIL keyboard
> would be really good for some of the WAITS applications.

Is this for nostalgia, where accurately representing the original is most important?

Otherwise, you can get keyboards with a little LCD display on each key, such that any
glyph can be added to each key.

Or the low-teck way, clear key caps that you remove and place under each one a
printed indication of the key function.

Neither one will confuse anyone who remembers the original, but should
allow for actual use to be close enough.

Lars Brinkhoff

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Dec 21, 2021, 2:34:32 PM12/21/21
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gah4 wrote:
>> The Knight keyboard is useful for running ITS, and the SAIL keyboard
>> would be really good for some of the WAITS applications.
>
> Is this for nostalgia, where accurately representing the original is
> most important?

It's not nostalgia, because I never used or even saw those keyboards
before.

> Otherwise, you can get keyboards with a little LCD display on each
> key, such that any glyph can be added to each key.

Can you name names? I found some traces online but it was $15000 and
out of stock.

> Or the low-teck way, clear key caps that you remove and place under
> each one a printed indication of the key function.

I'm hoping to spend $50 extra to get something better looking. But your
suggestion could maybe be an option for people who want to reduce the
cost. At this point nothing is set in stone.

Scott Lurndal

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Dec 21, 2021, 3:21:52 PM12/21/21
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Lars Brinkhoff <lars...@nocrew.org> writes:
>gah4 wrote:
>>> The Knight keyboard is useful for running ITS, and the SAIL keyboard
>>> would be really good for some of the WAITS applications.
>>
>> Is this for nostalgia, where accurately representing the original is
>> most important?
>
>It's not nostalgia, because I never used or even saw those keyboards
>before.
>
>> Otherwise, you can get keyboards with a little LCD display on each
>> key, such that any glyph can be added to each key.
>
>Can you name names? I found some traces online but it was $15000 and
>out of stock.

You might consider using a touch screen display panel on a second
video port if you have one, lay the monitor flat and write some
software to simulate the keyboard layout.

gah4

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Dec 21, 2021, 7:53:42 PM12/21/21
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On Tuesday, December 21, 2021 at 11:34:32 AM UTC-8, lars...@nocrew.org wrote:

(snip, I wrote)

> > Otherwise, you can get keyboards with a little LCD display on each
> > key, such that any glyph can be added to each key.

> Can you name names? I found some traces online but it was $15000 and
> out of stock.

I think the one I was looking at was individual keys, to make your own keyboard.
But then again, as described above, it would need a PC board, too.

I didn't look all that hard, except to be sure that it had been done before.

Lars Brinkhoff

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Dec 22, 2021, 1:26:39 AM12/22/21
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Scott Lurndal writes:
> You might consider using a touch screen display panel on a second
> video port if you have one, lay the monitor flat and write some
> software to simulate the keyboard layout.

No, I want a real keyboard with tactile feedback. But if someone were
to make a 3D model that could be part of a virtual reality simulation.

gah4

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Dec 22, 2021, 5:27:53 AM12/22/21
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On Tuesday, December 21, 2021 at 11:34:32 AM UTC-8, lars...@nocrew.org wrote:

(snip, I wrote)

> > Otherwise, you can get keyboards with a little LCD display on each
> > key, such that any glyph can be added to each key.

> Can you name names? I found some traces online but it was $15000 and
> out of stock.

Here is the data sheet for the one I found. I didn't see any pricing:

https://www.lcd-keys.com/files/SB6432.pdf

I didn't see if there are double width keys, but also didn't look so hard.
The data sheet gives the PC board layout.

gah4

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Dec 23, 2021, 2:32:00 PM12/23/21
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On Tuesday, December 21, 2021 at 11:34:32 AM UTC-8, lars...@nocrew.org wrote:

(snip, I wrote)

> > Otherwise, you can get keyboards with a little LCD display on each
> > key, such that any glyph can be added to each key.

> Can you name names? I found some traces online but it was $15000 and
> out of stock.

I am still getting details, but it seems that the keys are about $35, quantity one.

I don't see that they have them already in the shape of the usual keyboard,
but more of a rectangular array. Maybe for a store, with keys for each product.

Lars Brinkhoff

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Dec 23, 2021, 3:05:51 PM12/23/21
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gah4 wrote:
> I am still getting details, but it seems that the keys are about $35,
> quantity one.

Thanks for looking into this! I'm hoping the other keycaps will be
around $50 for a set of 69/73 (SAIL/Knight).

Paul Rubin

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Dec 23, 2021, 3:42:37 PM12/23/21
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Lars Brinkhoff <lars...@nocrew.org> writes:
> Thanks for looking into this! I'm hoping the other keycaps will be
> around $50 for a set of 69/73 (SAIL/Knight).

Don't the keys have legends on the front and not just the top? That
also seemed likely to make them expensive.

I've felt that the legends could be worked around somehow (currently
thinking a laser engraver could be better than 3d printing), and a more
difficult issue with those keyboards was the layout and enclosure,
especially if you really want to reproduce the massive feeling of the
original. I don't find the latter to be so desirable though.

Alan Bawden

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Dec 23, 2021, 9:19:08 PM12/23/21
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Paul Rubin <no.e...@nospam.invalid> writes:

Don't the keys have legends on the front and not just the top? That
also seemed likely to make them expensive.

I believe that having symbols on the _front_ of the keys was unique to
the Lisp Machine "Space Cadet" keyboards.

--
Alan Bawden

Lars Brinkhoff

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Dec 24, 2021, 2:20:31 AM12/24/21
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Alan Bawden wrote:
> Paul Rubin wrote:
> > Don't the keys have legends on the front and not just the top?
> I believe that having symbols on the _front_ of the keys was unique to
> the Lisp Machine "Space Cadet" keyboards.

That's right. The Knight and SAIL keyboards only have them on top.
I have provided some photos and links here:

https://github.com/osiweb/unified_retro_keyboard/issues/37

Lars Brinkhoff

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Dec 24, 2021, 9:20:46 AM12/24/21
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Paul Rubin wrote:
> a more difficult issue with those keyboards was the layout and
> enclosure, especially if you really want to reproduce the massive
> feeling of the original.

I don't know what to do about the enclosure yet. Suggestions welcome!

No, I don't think an exact copy of the bulky original is necessary.

gah4

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Dec 27, 2021, 7:07:41 AM12/27/21
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It seems that:

https://www.solutionsinplastic.com/

makes custom keycaps. It might be $850 for a whole set, quantity one.

LCD keycaps cost more, but are also more useful.

Lars Brinkhoff

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Dec 27, 2021, 9:25:29 AM12/27/21
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> It seems that:
> https://www.solutionsinplastic.com/
> makes custom keycaps. It might be $850 for a whole set, quantity one.

Thanks, that might be an alternative to the other manufacturer which is
Signature Plastics. The price point is probably lower at quantity 50
which is the ballpark I'm targeting.

Lars Brinkhoff

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Dec 27, 2021, 9:38:29 AM12/27/21
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>> It seems that:
>> https://www.solutionsinplastic.com/
>> makes custom keycaps. It might be $850 for a whole set, quantity one.
>
> Thanks, that might be an alternative to the other manufacturer which
> is Signature Plastics.

When I go to solutionsinplastic.com I see they are a branch of Signature
Plastics, so it's probably the same price.

m brandenberg

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Dec 27, 2021, 10:07:34 AM12/27/21
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On Tue, 21 Dec 2021, Lars Brinkhoff wrote:

> More info here:
> https://github.com/osiweb/unified_retro_keyboard/issues/37

The Drop (nee Massdrop) operation has a focus on special-interest
keycaps and they've come close in a few cases: https://drop.com/
Have a chat with them as they have plenty of experience organizing
such projects as well as dealing with supply-chain issues.

m

--
Monty Brandenberg

Lars Brinkhoff

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Jan 5, 2022, 4:28:26 AM1/5/22
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m brandenberg wrote:
> The Drop (nee Massdrop) operation has a focus on special-interest
> keycaps and they've come close in a few cases

Thanks, I have contacted them.

gah4

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Jan 5, 2022, 11:21:25 PM1/5/22
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On Tuesday, December 21, 2021 at 12:02:09 AM UTC-8, lars...@nocrew.org wrote:

> I'm trying to gauge the interest in keyboard replicas. The ones I have
> in mind would be modeled on the keyboard for the Knight TV, and the
> similar SAIL keyboard. Apparently there's a large start-up cost for
> making key caps, so the more orders the merrier.

The better keycaps are double injection molded, such that the
symbols go all the way through. Not just painted on the top,
where they can wear off easily.

Now, it might be that the keyboards discussed won't be used enough
to wear off the symbols.
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