boiling water in Galvanized steel garbage can
hdjim69
gallons of water at a time. Big steel & aluminum pots are kinda
expensive. I see galvanized steel garbage cans at Ace for only $20
for like a 20 gallon can. But not sure if it's safe use galvanized
metals. I've heard of zinc poisoning before so I just want to be sure
if these cans will work.
If anyone has a better suggestion, I'm all ears. Links to good
survival sites are appreciated.
TIA
J
Bob Brock
"hdjim69" <hdj...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1185315173....@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
Fifty gallon steel drum. You can get them for free at some places. Find
out what was in them and clean accordingly.
Terryc
If it is just for washing metal parts, etc, then fine.
If food is involved,forget it.
Aluminium pots shouldn't be that expensive. You may need to look around
a bit. Sure the ones in the catering shops and chain stores are rather
pricy, but there are other sources; chinese shops, outdoor shops, disposals.
I must admit that it took a few years to acqire our collection of about
20 pots from 7litres to 18litres.
The other problem with thin stuff like garbage cans is that you will
have to watch the rate of heating.If you put too much into it, you cn
burn through.
Frank Gilliland
wrote in <1185315173....@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>:
I wouldn't mess with a garbage can. The steel is thin for the price.
Bob suggested a 50 (or 55) gallon drum, good choice. If you are going
to do some hard-core boiling and want it to last, find a stainless
steel beer keg and cut off the top. That's how a lot of homebrewers
make their brewing kettles.
Offbreed
> Hello, need to get a big water container to be able to boil several
> gallons of water at a time. Big steel & aluminum pots are kinda
> expensive. I see galvanized steel garbage cans at Ace for only $20
> for like a 20 gallon can. But not sure if it's safe use galvanized
> metals. I've heard of zinc poisoning before so I just want to be sure
> if these cans will work.
It's not the zinc, it's the cadmium, a common contaminant of zinc used
for galvanizing.
You might be able to clean out a steel drum well enough. You could also
take one of the ribbed 55gal drums and cut it off just above one of the
ribs and bend the rib down so the sharp edge is out of the way.
hdjim69
> for galvanizing.
Thanks for the responses guys, I'll stay away from the garbage cans
and start looking around for some steel drums.
Thanks again!
J
strabo
> hdjim69 wrote:
>> Hello, need to get a big water container to be able to boil several
>> gallons of water at a time. Big steel & aluminum pots are kinda
>> expensive. I see galvanized steel garbage cans at Ace for only $20
>> for like a 20 gallon can. But not sure if it's safe use galvanized
>> metals. I've heard of zinc poisoning before so I just want to be sure
>> if these cans will work.
>>
>> If anyone has a better suggestion, I'm all ears. Links to good
>> survival sites are appreciated.
>
> If it is just for washing metal parts, etc, then fine.
>
> If food is involved,forget it.
>
> Aluminium pots shouldn't be that expensive. You may need to look around
> a bit. Sure the ones in the catering shops and chain stores are rather
> pricy, but there are other sources; chinese shops, outdoor shops,
> disposals.
>
You don't want to heat food or water in aluminum containers. Minute
aluminum particles leaches into the food or water and collects in the
body.
Use iron, steel, glass or ceramic.
>
> I must admit that it took a few years to acqire our collection of about
> 20 pots from 7litres to 18litres.
>
> The other problem with thin stuff like garbage cans is that you will
> have to watch the rate of heating.If you put too much into it, you cn
> burn through.
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Ginny
ie. when we de-hair pigs. Its an old one with no enamal; sits up on
bricks and we build a fire underneath; metal plug. It came out of a
salvage yard.
--
Ginny - in West Australia
verba volant, scripta manent
"words fly away, writings remain"
Gunner Asch
<newsones...@woa.com.au> wrote:
>> If anyone has a better suggestion, I'm all ears. Links to good
>> survival sites are appreciated.
>
>If it is just for washing metal parts, etc, then fine.
>
>If food is involved,forget it.
>
>Aluminium pots shouldn't be that expensive. You may need to look around
>a bit. Sure the ones in the catering shops and chain stores are rather
>pricy, but there are other sources; chinese shops, outdoor shops, disposals.
>
>I must admit that it took a few years to acqire our collection of about
>20 pots from 7litres to 18litres.
>
>The other problem with thin stuff like garbage cans is that you will
>have to watch the rate of heating.If you put too much into it, you cn
>burn through.
"menudo cooker"
Cheap enough to buy several
Gunner
Terryc
> We use a cast iron bath for very large quantities of hot water outside
> ie. when we de-hair pigs. Its an old one with no enamal; sits up on
> bricks and we build a fire underneath; metal plug. It came out of a
> salvage yard.
I've got one of those, cast iron bathtub that is.
Somehow I don't think I'd get away with killing and dehairing a pig in
the back yard in it.
Ginny
> I've got one of those, cast iron bathtub that is.
> Somehow I don't think I'd get away with killing and dehairing a pig in
> the back yard in it.
LOL My backyard is over 1000 acres so the neighbours aren't going to
complain. In fact they often come and help with the heavy lifting then
we all get to eat pork. It doesn't happen often but it is always a
family affair too. All of my kids have grown up knowing where their food
comes from so they won't starve if there is something edible walking around.
Getting back to the bath though, they do heat up a considerable amount
of water which would be suitable for washing and cleaning in a pinch.
Not much different from the old fashioned copper from days gone by.
Well, maybe a little more primitive. :-)
Mike
On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 21:04:16 -0400, strabo <str...@flashlight.net>
wrote:
>You don't want to heat food or water in aluminum containers. Minute
>aluminum particles leaches into the food or water and collects in the
>body.
aka 'light metal poisoning' except there is no scientific evidence
that using aluminium cookware leads to any significant takeup by
humans of aluminium.
--
Bob Brock
"Mike" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:iIWdnWJ-UNV...@pipex.net...
I though I'd seen some studies linking aluminum cookware to increased risk
for Alzheimer's a few years ago. Could be wrong though.
Ginny
Alzheimer's produces less of the enzyme that metabolises the aluminium
out of the system so more is retained in the body causing the disease. I
haven't read more recent studies.
Bob Brock
I knew that there was a reason that I threw away all my aluminum
cookware, I just couldn't remember why. ;-)
Terryc
I do not see some original posts, so..
>>You don't want to heat food or water in aluminum containers. Minute
>>aluminum particles leaches into the food or water and collects in the
>>body.
Furphy. Yes, they suspected aluminium of causing Alzheimers. Bad
science, like wearing underwear causes you to die. Good science shows it
wasn't so.
You can get good, economical aluminium pots for less money than you can
get the quivalent stainless steel. If you are just basically boiling
water (water meals),then it is irrelevant.
If your customers want stainless steel, then they should understand that
they have to pay much more for your services.
> aka 'light metal poisoning' except there is no scientific evidence
> that using aluminium cookware leads to any significant takeup by
> humans of aluminium.
Only bad science. The healthy human body can handle aluminium in and out.
>
>
Terryc
> Terryc wrote:
>
>> I've got one of those, cast iron bathtub that is.
>> Somehow I don't think I'd get away with killing and dehairing a pig in
>> the back yard in it.
>
>
> LOL My backyard is over 1000 acres so the neighbours aren't going to
> complain.
Not if they want help with bushfires they don't Funny how that moves the
bad ones on.
>In fact they often come and help with the heavy lifting then
> we all get to eat pork.
Most are okay. the few inclined to whinge about stuff learnt fast that
they were wasting their breath. I did have two going "Your tree drops
leaves in my pool" Well, you could move it, the tree was there first.
> It doesn't happen often but it is always a
> family affair too. All of my kids have grown up knowing where their food
> comes from so they won't starve if there is something edible walking
> around.
lol, we tease one of the farm cousins about the day her dad shot the
pig. She pestered him for days beforehand about when they were going to
do it. All trooped up, bang ,whaaaaaaaaarrr, It was like one of those
old sirens that just went on and on. Her mother back at the farm house
500 yards away wondered what on earth had happened. Was about 45 years
ago. {:-)
> Getting back to the bath though, they do heat up a considerable amount
> of water which would be suitable for washing and cleaning in a pinch.
> Not much different from the old fashioned copper from days gone by.
> Well, maybe a little more primitive. :-)
Well, not much, the copper was thin and made of copper and usually built
into a brick support. You could do the same with the bathtub. Yep,
filling the copper and carting the firewood was one of my chores. Until
mum slipped one night and got severe burns. Then we progressed to a chip
heater over the bath. Still had to cart the wood for the wood stove, oh
and the open fireplace, but Sunday night dinner over the open fireplace
was fun.
Thank JC I didn't have to dig the holes to bury the sheep guts. Still
got the spreaders and made sure I always had a system and knife for
doing it no matter where I lived. I could probably slip a goat or sheep
through the backyard before they had any idea. Only one neighbour over
the back yard might recognise the sounds. but I'm on clay and it is a
bastard to dig a deep pit.
Terryc
>>No, you are correct. My reading on it indicates that a person with
>>Alzheimer's produces less of the enzyme that metabolises the aluminium
>>out of the system so more is retained in the body causing the disease. I
>>haven't read more recent studies.
>
>
> I knew that there was a reason that I threw away all my aluminum
> cookware, I just couldn't remember why. ;-)
you was spooked.
Terryc
>> I though I'd seen some studies linking aluminum cookware to increased
>> risk for Alzheimer's a few years ago. Could be wrong though.
>>
> No, you are correct. My reading on it indicates that a person with
> Alzheimer's produces less of the enzyme that metabolises the aluminium
> out of the system so more is retained in the body causing the disease. I
> haven't read more recent studies.
Guys and gals, those two statements contradict each other. Read them
carefully.
Aluminium does not cause Alzheimers.
Yes, people with Alzheimers tended to retain aluminium. Some people. It
isn't even a good indicator of Alzheimers.
Offbreed
> I though I'd seen some studies linking aluminum cookware to increased risk
> for Alzheimer's a few years ago. Could be wrong though.
>
>
I sort of remember the same, but also there were others that say "no".
Last I remember hearing, the aluminum uptake was supposed to be due to a
metabolic problem, not because of the cook ware.
As an analogy, bone spurs are calcium, but are not caused by calcium in
the diet.
<http://www.chemistry.org/portal/a/c/s/1/feature_tea.html?id=8c3844e0d45611d5fa834fd8fe800100>
"Clay is formed by the geological weathering of the earth's surface. The
rock and stone that make up the earth's crust erode into microscopic
particles to form clay. Because of this process, the chemical
composition of clay resembles that of the igneous rock that makes up the
earth's crust; the two major components are silicon dioxide and aluminum
oxide.
"Each clay particle is composed of sheetlike molecules or units, held
loosely together, and they vary considerably in size. Basically, the
chemical composition of clay is two molecules of water to two silicon
dioxide molecules and one aluminum oxide molecule. In order for the clay
to be transformed from a soft, malleable state into hard earthenware
pottery, the water molecules need to be driven off."
So, that porcelain coffee cup also has aluminum in it, as does most soil.
Noweldrecumbent
off that could seriously harm you
"Terryc" <newsones...@woa.com.au> wrote in message
news:46a96bd6$0$2990$61c6...@un-2park-reader-01.sydney.pipenetworks.com.au...
Bob Brock
Wasn't a big loss. I'm partial to stainless steel and cast iron I
don't like Teflon either, but that's a whole different story.
Roarmeister
I won't go into the merits of one metal container over the other (this
thread already covered a lot of it) but I do want to ask you a very
basic question. What do you plan to use to actually BOIL THE WATER?
A very large fire? Gas appliance? Laser gun? Why not just use a
turkey fryer which is quite large.
If you use something as large as a 20 gal can, how are you going to
transfer the water to smaller containers for actual use or do you plan
on carrying 20 gallons with your 2 arms???
(20 gal. x 8.3 lbs per gal = 166 lbs!)
Stormin Mormon
--
Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
.
"Terryc" <newsones...@woa.com.au> wrote in message
news:46a9ff76$0$2996$61c65585@un-2park-reader-
: > No, you are correct. My reading on it indicates that a person
Stormin Mormon
How about if you heat the bottom, which contains water. That will
hold down the temp of the metal.
--
Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
.
"Noweldrecumbent" <noweldre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3jwqi.69$IE5...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.net...
: If you put fire to a galvanized container of any kind poison
:
Ginny
> If you put fire to a galvanized container of any kind poison fumes are given
> off that could seriously harm you
Does the same apply to tin cans?
We get coffee and milo tins (500gm/1 lb), punch a couple of holes for a
wire handle and use them for boiling water out in the paddock. To start
with they smoke a little above the water line and on the outside then
nothing. Over 30 years we have used them as quick, cheap and easy and
when they rust, wear out or get bent up we just chuck it and make a new
one. Maybe it is only on the first burn the fumes are produced.
Frank Gilliland
<glvl88RE...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in
<13alhek...@corp.supernews.com>:
>Noweldrecumbent wrote:
>> If you put fire to a galvanized container of any kind poison fumes are given
>> off that could seriously harm you
>
>Does the same apply to tin cans?
>
>We get coffee and milo tins (500gm/1 lb), punch a couple of holes for a
>wire handle and use them for boiling water out in the paddock. To start
>with they smoke a little above the water line and on the outside then
>nothing. Over 30 years we have used them as quick, cheap and easy and
>when they rust, wear out or get bent up we just chuck it and make a new
>one. Maybe it is only on the first burn the fumes are produced.
Tin cans were really iron or steel cans plated with tin to prevent
rust. But they don't use tin anymore. Nowdays the cans are lined with
a layer of polyethylene (PE). That's what smokes when you first heat
the can. Cans for foods that are more acidic (like pears or chili) get
a thicker layer of PE on the inside. And no, the fumes are not very
healthy, just like any other fumes you get when you burn any other
kind of plastic. Once the PE is burned off and the can is scrubbed
clean it should be fine.
As for boiling water in a galvanized steel can, it's not the best idea
but it probably won't kill you. It takes a lot higher temp than 212F
to drive off the zinc. Regardless, good ventilation would be a really
good idea.
Terryc
> Ah, but we can prove that self abuse causes blindness!
lol
The old pensioners dilema; does he take viagra to get a girlfriend and
risk blindness and heart attacks, or does he just satisfy himself and
risk blindness and heart attacks.
Terryc
> Wasn't a big loss. I'm partial to stainless steel and cast iron I
> don't like Teflon either, but that's a whole different story.
Same here.
Where it was a big loss was community work. I can afford to buy large
aluminium cook pots, but not good large stainless steel. The cheap
stainless steel pots are shit to do anything other than boil stuff to
crap in.
Terryc
> Such as? What kind of fumes?
>
> How about if you heat the bottom, which contains water. That will
> hold down the temp of the metal.
Sadly no unless you are very good at controlling the heat. While metal
is a good conductor of heat, the metal/water interface isn't as good. so
it can take time for heat in the metal to pass to the water, then the
hot water has to be convected away and replaced by cooler water.
In thicker pots, if you apply too much heat, some of this heat can go
sideways, and into the walls of the pot. In thinner pots, the metal has
no choice but to take it, and "overheat".
Offbreed
>
> Wasn't a big loss. I'm partial to stainless steel and cast iron I
> don't like Teflon either, but that's a whole different story.
I was glad of the scare because all the local camping supply stores only
had aluminum cook gear, and that sucks for durability. They finally got
some stainless back in.
Now the fad is for titanium, and the price is attention getting.
Terryc
> Tin cans were really iron or steel cans plated with tin to prevent
> rust. But they don't use tin anymore.
As far as I know, they are fine. doesn't seem to have hurt the first few
million Australians.
> Nowdays the cans are lined with a layer of polyethylene (PE).
I can tell you we know the difference and we still get many non-PE tins
in this country. Thank goodness.
> As for boiling water in a galvanized steel can, it's not the best idea
> but it probably won't kill you. It takes a lot higher temp than 212F
> to drive off the zinc.
Lol,you either haven't had many wood fires,or all OS wood is crap. yo
can get metal on a billy hotter than boiling temp on a good wood fire.
<Kinda like the stuff I have atm; old railway sleepers loaded with
fungi. The wood just looks dull compared to other wood and burns like
craps >
Myal
there was a KFC store collecting the pull tabs off the coke cans , they
were trying to get enough titanum to make a flase leg for a local girl .
Im interested in the metal , if pull tabs are a source , they are easy
to get in big numbers , how easy is it to melt and cast ?
Frank Gilliland
<newsones...@woa.com.au> wrote in
<46ab7289$0$2997$61c6...@un-2park-reader-01.sydney.pipenetworks.com.au>:
>Frank Gilliland wrote:
>
>> Tin cans were really iron or steel cans plated with tin to prevent
>> rust. But they don't use tin anymore.
>
>As far as I know, they are fine. doesn't seem to have hurt the first few
>million Australians.
As far as I know, you're right.
>> Nowdays the cans are lined with a layer of polyethylene (PE).
>
>I can tell you we know the difference and we still get many non-PE tins
>in this country. Thank goodness.
Now -that- I didn't know.
>> As for boiling water in a galvanized steel can, it's not the best idea
>> but it probably won't kill you. It takes a lot higher temp than 212F
>> to drive off the zinc.
>
>Lol,you either haven't had many wood fires,or all OS wood is crap. yo
>can get metal on a billy hotter than boiling temp on a good wood fire.
I've never had a problem. If it's full of water it's not going to get
near the 787 degrees (F) needed to even melt the zinc, let alone the
1665 degrees needed to vaporize it. And don't forget that zinc oxide
is the main ingredient in calamine lotion, as well as brass and a
large number of other common alloys. Since 1982 all US pennies are
made from it. I've melted plenty and I'm still alive. And lots of
people have taken galvanized steel to the grinder without dying. So
it's a far cry from being the 'nerve gas' that some people would want
you to think it is.
The problem with galvanized steel comes from welding, when the temps
get from 1000 to 3500 degrees (and even hotter with an arc welder).
THAT'S when you start having problems. I don't know how this fear got
from a welding precaution to having "no smoking within 50 feet" signs
posted on everything galvanized, but I suspect it's due to a lot of
people buying into a tale of fear and not taking the time to find out
the facts.
Noweldrecumbent
"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:46aaa720$0$4883$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
Ginny
> Frank Gilliland wrote:
>
>> Tin cans were really iron or steel cans plated with tin to prevent
>> rust. But they don't use tin anymore.
>
> As far as I know, they are fine. doesn't seem to have hurt the first few
> million Australians.
>
>> Nowdays the cans are lined with a layer of polyethylene (PE).
>
> I can tell you we know the difference and we still get many non-PE tins
> in this country. Thank goodness.
>
smell yet but that may change. I haven't used cans that contained liquid
so that may make a difference.
>
>> As for boiling water in a galvanized steel can, it's not the best idea
>> but it probably won't kill you. It takes a lot higher temp than 212F
>> to drive off the zinc.
>
> Lol,you either haven't had many wood fires,or all OS wood is crap. yo
> can get metal on a billy hotter than boiling temp on a good wood fire.
>
>
> <Kinda like the stuff I have atm; old railway sleepers loaded with
> fungi. The wood just looks dull compared to other wood and burns like
> craps >
use here and they are great. Old sleepers are treated here so wouldn't
use them except in a pinch. Anything struck by lightning is useless as
well as some of the other local Eucalyts.
Stormin Mormon
--
Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
.
"Noweldrecumbent" <noweldre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4jRqi.740$Yz6...@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net...
: Arsenic for one thing
: >
Frank Gilliland
<noweldre...@hotmail.com> wrote in
<4jRqi.740$Yz6...@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net>:
>Arsenic for one thing
Say WHAT?!?!?!?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanization
I didn't see anything in there about arsenic. Just zinc.
And if you are suggesting that there are traces of arsenic in the thin
zinc coating over the steel, you are probably right. But enough to
kill you? Hardly. There are traces of arsenic in the ground and in
just about everything you eat. In the old days, women used to take
arsenic daily to make their skin whiter. In large doses, yeah, you'll
die. But dying from arsenic poisoning by heating a galvanized garbage
can full of water?
PUH-LEEZE!!!
Frank Gilliland
<wīrenut@NOSPAMīcehouse.net> wrote in
<3cnna3daqd4cn8ra7...@4ax.com>:
<snip>
>....And don't forget that zinc oxide
>is the main ingredient in calamine lotion, as well as brass and a
>large number of other common alloys.
I should correct my poor composition here by saying that zinc is not
the -main- ingredient in brass, but it is used in brass and other
alloys in a significant amount.
Terryc
> there was a KFC store collecting the pull tabs off the coke cans , they
> were trying to get enough titanum to make a flase leg for a local girl .
Absolutely sure on this?
If you want to ask a metalworking question and get a real answer, take
it to rec.crafts.metalworking.
>
> Im interested in the metal ,
The "Titanium" that you are interested in is really titanium steel.
That is steel that has a fractional percentage of the element titanium,
and probably other shit added.
Like stainless steel is a steel with chrome and other stuff added to
give it that "stainless" property.
> if pull tabs are a source , they are easy to get in big numbers.
which would tell you that the metal is worth; shit extra
> how easy is it to melt and cast ?
I have absolutely no idea. I thought the idea with titanium was that you
roll or extrude a thinner cross section and save weight.
OTOH, read a rule of thumb the other day (bicycle list) where someone
said he just doubled the thickness of the aluminium he used, obtained
the same strength and saved a third of the weight.
Terryc
> And if you are suggesting that there are traces of arsenic in the thin
> zinc coating over the steel, you are probably right.
I understood the problem with arsenic was bio-acculmulation.
> But enough to
> kill you? Hardly. There are traces of arsenic in the ground and in
> just about everything you eat.
> In the old days, women used to take
> arsenic daily to make their skin whiter.
It is supposed to work as well as viagra too!
<Well, we know how stupid people are in following fashions.>
> But dying from arsenic poisoning by heating a galvanized garbage
> can full of water?
>
> PUH-LEEZE!!!
Suit yourself.
Terryc
>>>Nowdays the cans are lined with a layer of polyethylene (PE).
>>
>>I can tell you we know the difference and we still get many non-PE tins
>>in this country. Thank goodness.
>
> Now -that- I didn't know.
The "milo" tin ginny was talking about is a good example. the major
problem now is that so many "tins" are actually metalised cardboard
which are useless for anything.
> So
> it's a far cry from being the 'nerve gas' that some people would want
> you to think it is.
AFAIK, no one has posted that idea here. I was talkg about tin cans,not
galvanised cans.
Just because something doesn't kill you instantly, doesn't mean that it
isn't bad for you.
Terryc
> Most of the coffee cans are okay I think. Haven't noticed a plastic
> smell yet but that may change. I haven't used cans that contained liquid
> so that may make a difference.
It is a whitsih coating that you can scratch.
Armona or golden circle are using it inside tins of fruit.I think it
handles the fruit acids better than tin plating.
>
> Yes. Wood is definitely variable. Wandoo and Jarrah are the main ones in
> use here and they are great. Old sleepers are treated here so wouldn't
> use them except in a pinch. Anything struck by lightning is useless as
> well as some of the other local Eucalyts.
I didn't knowth struck by lightning bit, but by the time I see a tree,
it is impossiblwe to tell that and usually horizontal.
Generally, the old railway sleepers here are the best firewood. Red gum
or yellow box and beautiful burning. but this current lot just was so
weak, it was like unseasoned timber. I noticed that the "red" was dull
and I was seeing fungi strands in parts, then the termites started
turning up.
Either the mob cleaned up the botton of the "pit" when they moved sites
recently or the sleepers came from a very poorly maintained line. I
suspect the first as none of the block cutting is fresh.
I'll take the block splitter and test each crate next time. Even the
tree loppers sell better wood than this lot.
Frank Gilliland
<newsones...@woa.com.au> wrote in
<46ac2175$0$2997$61c6...@un-2park-reader-01.sydney.pipenetworks.com.au>:
>Frank Gilliland wrote:
>
>>>>Nowdays the cans are lined with a layer of polyethylene (PE).
>>>
>>>I can tell you we know the difference and we still get many non-PE tins
>>>in this country. Thank goodness.
>>
>> Now -that- I didn't know.
>
>The "milo" tin ginny was talking about is a good example. the major
>problem now is that so many "tins" are actually metalised cardboard
>which are useless for anything.
I use them for nuts & bolts. That's about it.
>> So
>> it's a far cry from being the 'nerve gas' that some people would want
>> you to think it is.
>
>AFAIK, no one has posted that idea here. I was talkg about tin cans,not
>galvanised cans.
Check the subject line.
>Just because something doesn't kill you instantly, doesn't mean that it
>isn't bad for you.
It doesn't mean it isn't -good- for you, either. Zinc just happens to
be an essential dietary mineral. I wouldn't suggest inhaling it, but
it's certainly not in the same category of plutonium or beryllium. And
just because something isn't good for you doesn't mean it's going to
put you in your grave.
Frank Gilliland
<newsones...@woa.com.au> wrote in
<46ac2077$0$2997$61c6...@un-2park-reader-01.sydney.pipenetworks.com.au>:
>Frank Gilliland wrote:
>
>> And if you are suggesting that there are traces of arsenic in the thin
>> zinc coating over the steel, you are probably right.
>
>I understood the problem with arsenic was bio-acculmulation.
It's not a heavy metal and doesn't accumulate like lead or mercury. It
does have effects from long-term exposure due to persistent irritation
it causes, resulting in cancer and kidney dysfunction. But it takes a
long time. Start with wiki if you want more info.
>> But enough to
>> kill you? Hardly. There are traces of arsenic in the ground and in
>> just about everything you eat.
>
>> In the old days, women used to take
>> arsenic daily to make their skin whiter.
>It is supposed to work as well as viagra too!
>
><Well, we know how stupid people are in following fashions.>
Too bad they haven't discovered the tonic effects of strychnine!
>> But dying from arsenic poisoning by heating a galvanized garbage
>> can full of water?
>>
>> PUH-LEEZE!!!
>
>Suit yourself.
Let's try this.... For almost as long as there have been galvanized
garbage cans, people have also used them for burn barrels. Have you
ever heard of -anyone- dropping dead from the fumes given off by the
can?
Ginny
>
> It is a whitsih coating that you can scratch.
> Armona or golden circle are using it inside tins of fruit.I think it
> handles the fruit acids better than tin plating.
>
Thanks. I didn't know that. Mind you, they are not big enough for
boiling water in my case.
> I didn't knowth struck by lightning bit, but by the time I see a tree,
> it is impossiblwe to tell that and usually horizontal.
>
Something to do with the sap getting fried I believe.
> Generally, the old railway sleepers here are the best firewood. Red gum
> or yellow box and beautiful burning. but this current lot just was so
> weak, it was like unseasoned timber. I noticed that the "red" was dull
> and I was seeing fungi strands in parts, then the termites started
> turning up.
>
Ah. I see what you mean.
> Either the mob cleaned up the botton of the "pit" when they moved sites
> recently or the sleepers came from a very poorly maintained line. I
> suspect the first as none of the block cutting is fresh.
>
> I'll take the block splitter and test each crate next time. Even the
> tree loppers sell better wood than this lot.
>
I'd have to admit to being lucky. I have never bought wood as it is all
home grown :-)
Ginny
> Too bad they haven't discovered the tonic effects of strychnine!
Actually strychnine was used as a heart stimulant for many years before
the days of pacemakers and synthesized stimulants.
Ginny
> Guys and gals, those two statements contradict each other. Read them
> carefully.
>
> Aluminium does not cause Alzheimers.
> Yes, people with Alzheimers tended to retain aluminium. Some people. It
> isn't even a good indicator of Alzheimers.
Sorry for phrasing that badly. The only substantiated evidence seems to
indicate that people with Alzheimers have raised levels of aluminium. I
agree with Frank though and replaced my saucepan set. Let's face it, I
had to give hubby some excuse for new saucepans. I really don't like
how black they go with some foods (boiled eggs is it?) and you can't
wash them in the dishwasher. I still have an aluminium pressure cooker
but it won't be long before I can't get seals for it so it's days are
numbered too.
Frank Gilliland
<glvl88RE...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in
<13aocco...@corp.supernews.com>:
>Frank Gilliland wrote:
>
>> Too bad they haven't discovered the tonic effects of strychnine!
>
>Actually strychnine was used as a heart stimulant for many years before
>the days of pacemakers and synthesized stimulants.
That was my point. It is a spinal cord stimulant and was sold as a
general tonic. Apparently it worked good, too. But I sure as hell
wouldn't want to die from it..... massive convulsions triggered by
slight noises or changes in light, and remaining fully conscious until
your lungs quit working from exhaustion. I think I'll pass on the
tonic and water.
Frank Gilliland
<glvl88RE...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in
<13aod96...@corp.supernews.com>:
>Terryc wrote:
>
>> Guys and gals, those two statements contradict each other. Read them
>> carefully.
>>
>> Aluminium does not cause Alzheimers.
>> Yes, people with Alzheimers tended to retain aluminium. Some people. It
>> isn't even a good indicator of Alzheimers.
>
>Sorry for phrasing that badly. The only substantiated evidence seems to
>indicate that people with Alzheimers have raised levels of aluminium. I
>agree with Frank though and replaced my saucepan set.
Huh? I don't have any problem with aluminum. JAMA says that Alzheimers
has genetic links. So unless aluminum is passed in your genes, I don't
see any reason to toss out the aluminum stew pot.
> Let's face it, I
>had to give hubby some excuse for new saucepans. I really don't like
>how black they go with some foods (boiled eggs is it?)
???????
> and you can't
>wash them in the dishwasher.
?????????????????????
> I still have an aluminium pressure cooker
>but it won't be long before I can't get seals for it so it's days are
>numbered too.
O-ring or flat gasket?
Frank Gilliland
<wīrenut@NOSPAMīcehouse.net> wrote in
<cqeoa3hv0j9afcpk9...@4ax.com>:
<snip>
>O-ring or flat gasket?
And yes, I'm bored to hell tonight.
Ginny
Ginny
> On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 14:35:17 +0800, Ginny
> <glvl88RE...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in
> <13aod96...@corp.supernews.com>:
>
>> Terryc wrote:
>>
>>> Guys and gals, those two statements contradict each other. Read them
>>> carefully.
>>>
>>> Aluminium does not cause Alzheimers.
>>> Yes, people with Alzheimers tended to retain aluminium. Some people. It
>>> isn't even a good indicator of Alzheimers.
>> Sorry for phrasing that badly. The only substantiated evidence seems to
>> indicate that people with Alzheimers have raised levels of aluminium. I
>> agree with Frank though and replaced my saucepan set.
>
>
> Huh? I don't have any problem with aluminum. JAMA says that Alzheimers
> has genetic links. So unless aluminum is passed in your genes, I don't
> see any reason to toss out the aluminum stew pot.
>
>
>> Let's face it, I
>> had to give hubby some excuse for new saucepans. I really don't like
>> how black they go with some foods (boiled eggs is it?)
>
>
> ???????
>
>
also make the teatowel black when I dried them after washing.
>> and you can't
>> wash them in the dishwasher.
>
>
> ?????????????????????
>
The detergent pits them pretty bad as it is so corrosive.
>
>> I still have an aluminium pressure cooker
>> but it won't be long before I can't get seals for it so it's days are
>> numbered too.
>
>
> O-ring or flat gasket?
>
>
O-ring not a problem. Little flat washer on the lid lock. It's holding
up but the manufacturer (Namco) has stopped making them so when it's
perished I'll have to look for an alternative part or just use the large
cooker.
Ginny
that has changed to 1080 poison now. Lost a couple of good dogs to it
though. Not a pretty sight.
Frank Gilliland
<glvl88RE...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in
<13aogd1...@corp.supernews.com>:
I've never had aluminum pots/pans do anything like THAT. Is there
something wrong with your water supply? Like, too acid or alkaline?
And are you sure they are 100% aluminum, and not an aluminum/zinc
alloy or pot metal? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pot_metal)
>>> I still have an aluminium pressure cooker
>>> but it won't be long before I can't get seals for it so it's days are
>>> numbered too.
>>
>>
>> O-ring or flat gasket?
>>
>>
>O-ring not a problem. Little flat washer on the lid lock. It's holding
>up but the manufacturer (Namco) has stopped making them so when it's
>perished I'll have to look for an alternative part or just use the large
>cooker.
I've had to cut a few gaskets from time to time. The best stuff I have
found is the green rubber (neoprene) that you can cut from a pair of
old galoshes, overshoes or hip-waders. The black stuff works too, but
degrades faster in oil or gas.
Ginny
>> Yes they went black/dark grey when I cooked some foods in them. They
>> also make the teatowel black when I dried them after washing.
>>
>>>> and you can't
>>>> wash them in the dishwasher.
>>>
>>> ?????????????????????
>>>
>> The detergent pits them pretty bad as it is so corrosive.
>
>
> I've never had aluminum pots/pans do anything like THAT. Is there
> something wrong with your water supply? Like, too acid or alkaline?
> And are you sure they are 100% aluminum, and not an aluminum/zinc
> alloy or pot metal? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pot_metal)
>
Now you've got me. It's a while since I ditched them. They were fairly
thin, softish metal, very light 'el cheapo' pots.
>
>>>> I still have an aluminium pressure cooker
>>>> but it won't be long before I can't get seals for it so it's days are
>>>> numbered too.
>>>
>>> O-ring or flat gasket?
>>>
>>>
>> O-ring not a problem. Little flat washer on the lid lock. It's holding
>> up but the manufacturer (Namco) has stopped making them so when it's
>> perished I'll have to look for an alternative part or just use the large
>> cooker.
>
>
> I've had to cut a few gaskets from time to time. The best stuff I have
> found is the green rubber (neoprene) that you can cut from a pair of
> old galoshes, overshoes or hip-waders. The black stuff works too, but
> degrades faster in oil or gas.
>
>
Will keep that in mind. I can get neoprene sheet from one shop that I
know of, just not sure if it is thin enough. It is usually bright
orange/red but it may be colour coded for different uses.Have to check
it out.
Ginny
> I've never had aluminum pots/pans do anything like THAT. Is there
> something wrong with your water supply? Like, too acid or alkaline?
> And are you sure they are 100% aluminum, and not an aluminum/zinc
> alloy or pot metal? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pot_metal)
Definitely not white metal as we have used that for pouring windmill
bearings in the head. Water is rainwater stored in plastic lined sheet
steel tank.
It was only some foods. From memory acid food cleaned them up and
alkaline foods dardened them. I could be wrong as my memory is not
infallible. More of a problem with the pitting in the dishwasher though.
Frank Gilliland
<glvl88RE...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in
<13aokee...@corp.supernews.com>:
>Frank Gilliland wrote:
>
>>> Yes they went black/dark grey when I cooked some foods in them. They
>>> also make the teatowel black when I dried them after washing.
>>>
>>>>> and you can't
>>>>> wash them in the dishwasher.
>>>>
>>>> ?????????????????????
>>>>
>>> The detergent pits them pretty bad as it is so corrosive.
>>
>>
>> I've never had aluminum pots/pans do anything like THAT. Is there
>> something wrong with your water supply? Like, too acid or alkaline?
>> And are you sure they are 100% aluminum, and not an aluminum/zinc
>> alloy or pot metal? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pot_metal)
>>
>Now you've got me. It's a while since I ditched them. They were fairly
>thin, softish metal, very light 'el cheapo' pots.
...."softish metal"..... sounds like pot metal. If your hubby has any
carburetors laying around the garage, take a look and see if it's the
same stuff. Then you won't -ever- have any remorse about throwing them
out.
>>>>> I still have an aluminium pressure cooker
>>>>> but it won't be long before I can't get seals for it so it's days are
>>>>> numbered too.
>>>>
>>>> O-ring or flat gasket?
>>>>
>>>>
>>> O-ring not a problem. Little flat washer on the lid lock. It's holding
>>> up but the manufacturer (Namco) has stopped making them so when it's
>>> perished I'll have to look for an alternative part or just use the large
>>> cooker.
>>
>>
>> I've had to cut a few gaskets from time to time. The best stuff I have
>> found is the green rubber (neoprene) that you can cut from a pair of
>> old galoshes, overshoes or hip-waders. The black stuff works too, but
>> degrades faster in oil or gas.
>>
>>
>Will keep that in mind. I can get neoprene sheet from one shop that I
>know of, just not sure if it is thin enough. It is usually bright
>orange/red but it may be colour coded for different uses.Have to check
>it out.
The shop should have specs. If it can handle 250 degrees F then it
should be fine.
Frank Gilliland
<glvl88RE...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in
<13aokpn...@corp.supernews.com>:
>.... More of a problem with the pitting in the dishwasher though.
Yep, pot metal. Be glad they're gone.
Myal
> Myal wrote:
>
>> there was a KFC store collecting the pull tabs off the coke cans ,
>> they were trying to get enough titanum to make a flase leg for a local
>> girl .
>
>
> Absolutely sure on this?
Yup
KFC at Glen Innes about 2 yr ago , I bought a van thru ebay and was up
there collectiong it , stopped off for a feed on our way thru the place
, they had a sign up and a bucket 1/2 full of rip tabs ...
Terryc
> I
> agree with Frank though and replaced my saucepan set. Let's face it, I
> had to give hubby some excuse for new saucepans.
Traitor. the sisterhood will get you for alerting the men here to the
tricks of the sisters {:-).
> I really don't like how black they go with some foods (boiled eggs is it?)
Yes.
> and you can't wash them in the dishwasher.
Does awful things to them. Well, it looks that way.
Offbreed
> there was a KFC store collecting the pull tabs off the coke cans , they
> were trying to get enough titanum to make a flase leg for a local girl .
>
> Im interested in the metal , if pull tabs are a source , they are easy
> to get in big numbers , how easy is it to melt and cast ?
I'd think that stuff is too expensive to use for pull tabs so you might
look up how to test it.
I have no idea how hard it is to melt.
Offbreed
> And if you are suggesting that there are traces of arsenic in the thin
> zinc coating over the steel, you are probably right. But enough to
> kill you? Hardly. There are traces of arsenic in the ground and in
> just about everything you eat. In the old days, women used to take
> arsenic daily to make their skin whiter.
I've read of "arsenic eaters" in the same context as drug addicts, so
it's probably addictive as well.
Offbreed
> Anything struck by lightning is useless as
>
Myal
some say that the lightning causes the "lighter volotile gasses" to go ,
others say that the wood is often mistaken for seasoned wood , while its
still green in fact , others I have known atribute supernatural stuff to
it ...
I do know it seems to be shitty firewood , even years after the tree has
been hit and its dead n dried real well .
Noweldrecumbent
"Frank Gilliland" <wīrenut@NOSPAMīcehouse.net> wrote in message
news:4cpna3tho8hvdm86p...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 20:37:19 -0400, "Noweldrecumbent"
> <noweldre...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> <4jRqi.740$Yz6...@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net>:
>
>>Arsenic for one thing
>
>
> Say WHAT?!?!?!?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanization
>
> I didn't see anything in there about arsenic. Just zinc.
>
> And if you are suggesting that there are traces of arsenic in the thin
> zinc coating over the steel, you are probably right. But enough to
> kill you? Hardly. There are traces of arsenic in the ground and in
> just about everything you eat. In the old days, women used to take
> die. But dying from arsenic poisoning by heating a galvanized garbage
Ginny
Sorry I can't give you any more info, just what we have found over the
last 30yrs burning local wood. Old timers have said it burns up all the
oxygen in the wood or boils the sap making the wood very dense so the
wood just smolders without giving off heat or making good coals which
doesn't suit my wood burning requirements. Ruins a perfectly good tree
in more ways than one :-)
It may be something specific to Eucalyptus trees of course, not having
access to non natives. How does lightning affect the wood's burning
capacity in your area? It would be interesting to know.
BTW Googling brought up that it is an urban myth but we have tried it
over the years and I still maintain it is not worth the effort to burn
such wood. I use wood fire for heat and cooking so it needs to burn
bright and produce lots of coal.
Mike
On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 20:45:34 GMT, Myal <Dum...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Offbreed wrote:
>> Bob Brock wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Wasn't a big loss. I'm partial to stainless steel and cast iron I
>>> don't like Teflon either, but that's a whole different story.
>>
>>
>> I was glad of the scare because all the local camping supply stores only
>> had aluminum cook gear, and that sucks for durability. They finally got
>> some stainless back in.
>>
>> Now the fad is for titanium, and the price is attention getting.
>
>there was a KFC store collecting the pull tabs off the coke cans , they
>were trying to get enough titanum to make a flase leg for a local girl .
>
>Im interested in the metal , if pull tabs are a source , they are easy
>to get in big numbers , how easy is it to melt and cast ?
No way, except in a metallurgists fantasy coke machine, do ring pull
cans contain *any* titanium. With the exception of weight obsessed
cyclists, and the cookware mentioned previously you are extremely
unlikely to find it in many consumer products, least of all disposable
ones - the price is unbelievably high and usually all production is
on allocation to the aerospace industry for 12+ months ahead.
Collecting the cans and selling them for scrap would have been a
slightly more productive way to pay for a false leg.
--
Offbreed
Any wood that's been dead a while is going to lose the lighter volatile
gases to normal evaporation. Strange.
Offbreed
> It may be something specific to Eucalyptus trees of course, not having
> access to non natives.
That might be the case, or it's more common to Eucalyptus trees.
> How does lightning affect the wood's burning
> capacity in your area? It would be interesting to know.
>
All our wood around here is crappy firewood. The best I know of is the
dead branches of the Red Cedar. Well seasoned hemlock is the best common
wood, IMO, and people from other areas would not like it at all. But, we
don't very much lightening up here.
> BTW Googling brought up that it is an urban myth but we have tried it
> over the years and I still maintain it is not worth the effort to burn
> such wood. I use wood fire for heat and cooking so it needs to burn
> bright and produce lots of coal.
>
This is why I suspect it is specific to Eucalyptus.
Ginny
> This is why I suspect it is specific to Eucalyptus.
You're probably right. I just assumed it affected most trees like that.
I must try it with non-natives some day (not a lot around though).
Retief
wrote:
>Hello, need to get a big water container to be able to boil several
>gallons of water at a time. Big steel & aluminum pots are kinda
>expensive. I see galvanized steel garbage cans at Ace for only $20
>for like a 20 gallon can. But not sure if it's safe use galvanized
>metals. I've heard of zinc poisoning before so I just want to be sure
>if these cans will work.
Well, I haven't seen anyone else point this out yet...
Most such garbage cans are soldered together. And since they aren't
rated "food grade", it's a good bet that the solder is lead based.
In general, you don't want to heat water in any vessel that isn't
"food grade" (either by design, or after careful thought on your
part).
If it were plastic (and you were heating with rocks), the hot water
might well extract plasticisers and other nasties from the tank, that
you probably don't want to drink.
Metal vessels likewise will leach out (your kitchen pans are probably
stainless or aluminum -- both produce a good passivated layer -- an
oxidized layer, so the metal tends not to leach). Iron (i.e. cast
iron) will leach into your food -- not a problem, unless you have too
much iron in your diet. Steel should be similarly innocuous (assuming
it's not an unusual alloy, with nasties). Copper vessels will leach
copper. Brass (being an alloy) will leach all sorts of things.
Most glass vessels are probably OK (since most of them were already
food grade). Leaded glass will leach lead. Ceramics you want to know
that they used clean sand (no lead, mercury, etc) and that the glazes
were likewise lead/mercury-free. Of course, heating glass vessels
usually means Pyrex (since other glass vessels tend to break).
Did we miss anything? Yes, even the water from your hot water tank
should be treated as "not food grade" (after all, it's a tank of hot
water, with lots of time to leach chemicals, metals and whatnot into
solution).
Retief
Frank Gilliland
wrote in <bf40b31rc7rcvbcia...@4ax.com>:
>On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:12:53 -0700, hdjim69 <hdj...@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Hello, need to get a big water container to be able to boil several
>>gallons of water at a time. Big steel & aluminum pots are kinda
>>expensive. I see galvanized steel garbage cans at Ace for only $20
>>for like a 20 gallon can. But not sure if it's safe use galvanized
>>metals. I've heard of zinc poisoning before so I just want to be sure
>>if these cans will work.
>
>Well, I haven't seen anyone else point this out yet...
>
>Most such garbage cans are soldered together.
No, they aren't. They are crimped and/or spot-welded, then galvanized.
> And since they aren't
>rated "food grade", it's a good bet that the solder is lead based.
>
>In general, you don't want to heat water in any vessel that isn't
>"food grade" (either by design, or after careful thought on your
>part).
>
>If it were plastic (and you were heating with rocks), the hot water
>might well extract plasticisers and other nasties from the tank, that
>you probably don't want to drink.
>
>Metal vessels likewise will leach out (your kitchen pans are probably
>stainless or aluminum -- both produce a good passivated layer -- an
>oxidized layer, so the metal tends not to leach). Iron (i.e. cast
>iron) will leach into your food -- not a problem, unless you have too
>much iron in your diet. Steel should be similarly innocuous (assuming
>it's not an unusual alloy, with nasties). Copper vessels will leach
>copper. Brass (being an alloy) will leach all sorts of things.
None of which is of any concern.
>Most glass vessels are probably OK (since most of them were already
>food grade). Leaded glass will leach lead. Ceramics you want to know
>that they used clean sand (no lead, mercury, etc) and that the glazes
>were likewise lead/mercury-free. Of course, heating glass vessels
>usually means Pyrex (since other glass vessels tend to break).
All true.
>Did we miss anything? Yes, even the water from your hot water tank
>should be treated as "not food grade" (after all, it's a tank of hot
>water, with lots of time to leach chemicals, metals and whatnot into
>solution).
Now you are trolling. Too bad -- you almost had a good post but then
you go an ruin it.
Retief
<wīrenut@NOSPAMīcehouse.net> wrote:
> >>Hello, need to get a big water container to be able to boil several
> >>gallons of water at a time. Big steel & aluminum pots are kinda
> >>expensive. I see galvanized steel garbage cans at Ace for only $20
> >>for like a 20 gallon can. But not sure if it's safe use galvanized
> >>metals. I've heard of zinc poisoning before so I just want to be sure
> >>if these cans will work.
> >
> >Well, I haven't seen anyone else point this out yet...
> >
> >Most such garbage cans are soldered together.
>
> No, they aren't. They are crimped and/or spot-welded, then galvanized.
Ahhh, so the visible solder blobs on the heavy duty metal cans that I
looked at a few weeks back were large amounts of tin overflow/waste,
and not solder overflow from the joint? Very interesting...
I wonder what other poisonous metals might occur in this operation:
http://www.du.edu/~jcalvert/phys/zinc.htm
Cadmium is a by-product of zinc production, much rarer and used
only in small amounts. Cadmium is prettier than zinc, since it is
whiter, like tin or silver. A few percent hardens and strengthens
copper without decreasing its conductivity greatly. Cadmium copper
is used for electrical contact wires, where durability and low
resistance are both desirable. It also is used as a protective
coating for iron, in very thin films. [...]
However, cadmium is extremely poisonous, more so even than mercury
or lead. It attacks the kidneys, among other things. Cadmium may
be essential to the rat metabolism, it is believed. Its use has
been strongly discouraged where its vapor or dust may be created,
or it is disposed of carelessly. However, cadmium is being
persecuted, like mercury and lead, although it is a completely
negligible hazard in its normal uses.
[...]
Zinc salts are poisionous, if not violently so.
Spelter can be refined by liquation, where impurities are skimmed
from the top, and the liquids separated into one containing lead
and cadmium, and the other purified zinc. Better purification can
be obtained by fractional distillation, since zinc vaporizes at a
conveniently low temperature. There is also electrolysis, but zinc
produced by this method is quite pure anyway. All purification
costs money and loses zinc, so where less purity is satisfactory,
it is allowed. Lead, copper and tin, for example, do not have a
bad effect on brass. For die casting material, on the other hand,
it is essential to reduce lead, copper and tin to very small
amounts to avoid swelling and embrittlement.
Historically (and indeed, until relatively recently) one could expect
a fair amount of contamination in zinc (seperation processes have
improved greatly over the last couple decades)
> > And since they aren't
> >rated "food grade", it's a good bet that the solder is lead based.
> >
> >In general, you don't want to heat water in any vessel that isn't
> >"food grade" (either by design, or after careful thought on your
> >part).
> >
> >If it were plastic (and you were heating with rocks), the hot water
> >might well extract plasticisers and other nasties from the tank, that
> >you probably don't want to drink.
> >
> >Metal vessels likewise will leach out (your kitchen pans are probably
> >stainless or aluminum -- both produce a good passivated layer -- an
> >oxidized layer, so the metal tends not to leach). Iron (i.e. cast
> >iron) will leach into your food -- not a problem, unless you have too
> >much iron in your diet. Steel should be similarly innocuous (assuming
> >it's not an unusual alloy, with nasties). Copper vessels will leach
> >copper. Brass (being an alloy) will leach all sorts of things.
>
> None of which is of any concern.
Really Frank?
http://www.haworthpress.com/store/ArticleAbstract.asp?sid=GDA5UU0GQMJK9KCKEC1F5UBXPA9KD5T9&ID=93178
A foodborne disease characterized by nausea, abdominal pain and
vomiting in University Hostel students was investigated.
Epidemiological and laboratory investigations indicated that the
disease was associated with the consumption of rice and soup
contaminated with lead and copper. Lead was detected in rice (1
19.65 ppm), soup (42.6 ppm), vegetable curry (42.9) and vomitus
(120.6 ppm) while copper was detected in soup (47.0 ppm) and
vomitus (40.2 ppm). Metal entry into the food was due to improper
tin coating of the copper vessels used for cooking.
Copper poisoning:
Brass poisoning:
http://www.du.edu/~jcalvert/phys/zinc.htm
Lead, copper and tin, for example, do not have a bad effect on
brass. For die casting material, on the other hand, it is
essential to reduce lead, copper and tin to very small amounts to
avoid swelling and embrittlement.
> >Did we miss anything? Yes, even the water from your hot water tank
> >should be treated as "not food grade" (after all, it's a tank of hot
> >water, with lots of time to leach chemicals, metals and whatnot into
> >solution).
>
> Now you are trolling. Too bad -- you almost had a good post but then
> you go an ruin it.
Do you struggle to be this ignorant, or does it come naturally?
Unlike you, I chose not to give advice that will kill the reader.
http://www.fcwa.org/water/faq.htm
3. Is it safe to drink water from a garden hose?
Substances used in vinyl garden hoses to keep them flexible can
get into the water as it passes through the hose. These
substances are not good for you or your pets. There are hoses made
with "food-grade" plastic that will not contaminate the water.
Check your local hardware store for this type of hose.
[...]
14. Is it okay to use water from the hot water tap for drinking,
cooking, or making baby formula?
Hot water generally comes from a hot water heater that may contain
impurities that should not be ingested. Some of these impurities
might be metals from household plumbing that are concentrated in
the heating process. Additionally, these impurities from the
household plumbing dissolve more rapidly in hot water than cold
water causing the amount of impurities to be higher in hot water.
So what goes on in a water heater?
http://www.water-research.net/sulfate.htm
If hydrogen sulfide odor is associated primarily with the hot
water system, a hot water heater modification may reduce the odor.
Replacing the water heater's magnesium corrosion control rod with
one made of aluminum or another metal may improve the situation.
Yes, they are talking about a _sacrificial_ anode (metal rod) in the
hot water heater. This metal (aluminum or magnesium) is CONSUMED by
the process, and thus finds its way into the water supply.
Retief
Frank Gilliland
wrote in <4le2b314di6ps8pbp...@4ax.com>:
>On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 01:06:12 -0700, Frank Gilliland
><wïrenut@NOSPAMïcehouse.net> wrote:
>
>> >>Hello, need to get a big water container to be able to boil several
>> >>gallons of water at a time. Big steel & aluminum pots are kinda
>> >>expensive. I see galvanized steel garbage cans at Ace for only $20
>> >>for like a 20 gallon can. But not sure if it's safe use galvanized
>> >>metals. I've heard of zinc poisoning before so I just want to be sure
>> >>if these cans will work.
>> >
>> >Well, I haven't seen anyone else point this out yet...
>> >
>> >Most such garbage cans are soldered together.
>>
>> No, they aren't. They are crimped and/or spot-welded, then galvanized.
>
>Ahhh, so the visible solder blobs on the heavy duty metal cans that I
>looked at a few weeks back were large amounts of tin overflow/waste,
>and not solder overflow from the joint? Very interesting...
I see you are begging for an argument. Ok, you got one if for no other
reason than to denounce your metallic mythology.
I have never seen, nor will probably -ever- see, a garbage can that
has been soldered together. There are some very simple reasons for
this. First, it's a friggin' garbage can. It's meant for garbage, not
boiling water. It doesn't NEED to be soldered. Second, the cost of
lead is much higher than the cost of zinc, and since the can is going
to be galvanized in the process of manufacture, what's the point?
Third, the process and materials involved in soldering cost much more
than crimped seams and spot-welded handles, which have served the
purpose nicely for.... oh, I don't know.... a century? And they are
both stronger than any soldering joint can achieve.
If you saw a blob of metal and it was on a garbage can, either it was
a manufacturing defect during galvanization or it was the result of
something that was done afterwards. Maybe someone -tried- to solder it
but didn't know how (hence the blob). Or maybe you just made the story
up. Either way, I would be more than happy to take pics of the garbage
cans in my back yard and post them for everyone to see that they are
not soldered at any point or in any way.
>I wonder what other poisonous metals might occur in this operation:
>
>http://www.du.edu/~jcalvert/phys/zinc.htm
>
> Cadmium is a by-product of zinc production, much rarer and used
> only in small amounts. Cadmium is prettier than zinc, since it is
> whiter, like tin or silver. A few percent hardens and strengthens
> copper without decreasing its conductivity greatly. Cadmium copper
> is used for electrical contact wires, where durability and low
> resistance are both desirable. It also is used as a protective
> coating for iron, in very thin films. [...]
No selective quoting allowed. Here's the part you snipped:
These films alloy with the iron and are hard to damage in use, so
cadmium-plated screws and bolts are found. It is used as the anode
in rechargable nickel-cadmium cells. Its main use is in alloys,
where it can replace the more expensive bismuth in fusible alloys.
It can also replace expensive tin in some applications, such as
solders.
I must be way out of touch since I still use good ol' 60/40 lead/tin
solder. Gee, I wonder why.....
> However, cadmium is extremely poisonous, more so even than mercury
> or lead. It attacks the kidneys, among other things. Cadmium may
> be essential to the rat metabolism, it is believed. Its use has
> been strongly discouraged where its vapor or dust may be created,
> or it is disposed of carelessly. However, cadmium is being
> persecuted, like mercury and lead, although it is a completely
> negligible hazard in its normal uses.
Well -that- explains why I don't have lead/cadmium solder on my bench!
>[...]
> Zinc salts are poisionous, if not violently so.
Great, except you left out this part:
Pure zinc shows almost no reaction with water or dilute acids,
because of the formation of a thin layer of hydrogen gas on its
surface, or "polarization." Impure zinc, or zinc in the presence of
copper or platinum, reacts readily with the evolution of hydrogen.
> Spelter can be refined by liquation, where impurities are skimmed
> from the top, and the liquids separated into one containing lead
> and cadmium, and the other purified zinc. Better purification can
> be obtained by fractional distillation, since zinc vaporizes at a
> conveniently low temperature. There is also electrolysis, but zinc
> produced by this method is quite pure anyway. All purification
> costs money and loses zinc, so where less purity is satisfactory,
> it is allowed. Lead, copper and tin, for example, do not have a
> bad effect on brass. For die casting material, on the other hand,
> it is essential to reduce lead, copper and tin to very small
> amounts to avoid swelling and embrittlement.
Whoops! Once again you forgot to include the more relevant part of the
article, the part that occurs -before- the section you quoted:
The usual process for the extraction of zinc from sulphide ores is
as follows. First, the ore must be roasted in air to burn off the
sulphur as SO2. When this gas is released to the atmosphere, it
devastates the vegetation over a considerable area. However, it can
be recovered and made into sulphuric acid, which can be used in the
smelting process. A good deal of acid is left over for sale to
improve the economics. The oxide from the roasting is then leached
with the acid produced from the sulphur to produce zinc sulphate,
which is then electrolyzed to the metal. This produces a good, pure
zinc and is the currently favored process.
>Historically (and indeed, until relatively recently) one could expect
>a fair amount of contamination in zinc (seperation processes have
>improved greatly over the last couple decades)
Try the last -several- decades. I have a chemistry book from 1941 that
describes electrolytic seperation as the primary purification process
even -then-. Why? Because cadmium is more expensive than zinc so it's
more economical to use the process that doesn't leave it in the zinc.
And THAT'S why you don't have to worry about cadmium in your zinc!
>> > And since they aren't
>> >rated "food grade", it's a good bet that the solder is lead based.
>> >
>> >In general, you don't want to heat water in any vessel that isn't
>> >"food grade" (either by design, or after careful thought on your
>> >part).
>> >
>> >If it were plastic (and you were heating with rocks), the hot water
>> >might well extract plasticisers and other nasties from the tank, that
>> >you probably don't want to drink.
>> >
>> >Metal vessels likewise will leach out (your kitchen pans are probably
>> >stainless or aluminum -- both produce a good passivated layer -- an
>> >oxidized layer, so the metal tends not to leach). Iron (i.e. cast
>> >iron) will leach into your food -- not a problem, unless you have too
>> >much iron in your diet. Steel should be similarly innocuous (assuming
>> >it's not an unusual alloy, with nasties). Copper vessels will leach
>> >copper. Brass (being an alloy) will leach all sorts of things.
>>
>> None of which is of any concern.
>
>Really Frank?
Really, nameless one.
>http://www.haworthpress.com/store/ArticleAbstract.asp?sid=GDA5UU0GQMJK9KCKEC1F5UBXPA9KD5T9&ID=93178
>
> A foodborne disease characterized by nausea, abdominal pain and
> vomiting in University Hostel students was investigated.
> Epidemiological and laboratory investigations indicated that the
> disease was associated with the consumption of rice and soup
> contaminated with lead and copper. Lead was detected in rice (1
> 19.65 ppm), soup (42.6 ppm), vegetable curry (42.9) and vomitus
> (120.6 ppm) while copper was detected in soup (47.0 ppm) and
> vomitus (40.2 ppm). Metal entry into the food was due to improper
> tin coating of the copper vessels used for cooking.
This is only an abstract. It doesn't indicate the source of the lead
or the length of exposure. Nor does it say why the concentration of
lead in the puke was higher than in the food -- which suggests that
the lead came from another source. Without more information your
source is basically worthless. But the article does sound interesting.
>Copper poisoning:
>
>http://books.google.com/books?id=vxMOgExe7YcC&pg=PA507&lpg=PA507&dq=cooking+in+copper+vessels&source=web&ots=rLuk-0ttjE&sig=osDgn-v5m2kogjMiKT00knKXQXc
I don't have any problems saying that copper is poisonous. But what
you -didn't- mention was that copper, even in trace amounts, gives
food a bitter, metallic taste. And because of this, accidental copper
poisoning via copper in the food is very rare. If the students from
your previous 'source' really did eat soup that was contaminated with
copper then I suspect the soup tasted pretty bad (hence the vomit).
>Brass poisoning:
>
>http://books.google.com/books?id=_P0NozwCJUkC&pg=PA206&lpg=PA206&dq=cooking+in+brass+vessels+poison&source=web&ots=jWrmSv12rg&sig=wVy2KFnKKbWLbuQgXBfMRgpMzlY
>
>http://www.du.edu/~jcalvert/phys/zinc.htm
>
> Lead, copper and tin, for example, do not have a bad effect on
> brass. For die casting material, on the other hand, it is
> essential to reduce lead, copper and tin to very small amounts to
> avoid swelling and embrittlement.
Fine. So? You're still going to taste the copper before you eat enough
to make you sick. Don't believe me? Go lick a copper pipe.
>> >Did we miss anything? Yes, even the water from your hot water tank
>> >should be treated as "not food grade" (after all, it's a tank of hot
>> >water, with lots of time to leach chemicals, metals and whatnot into
>> >solution).
>>
>> Now you are trolling. Too bad -- you almost had a good post but then
>> you go an ruin it.
>
>Do you struggle to be this ignorant, or does it come naturally?
>Unlike you, I chose not to give advice that will kill the reader.
>
>http://www.fcwa.org/water/faq.htm
>
> 3. Is it safe to drink water from a garden hose?
>
> Substances used in vinyl garden hoses to keep them flexible can
> get into the water as it passes through the hose. These
> substances are not good for you or your pets. There are hoses made
> with "food-grade" plastic that will not contaminate the water.
> Check your local hardware store for this type of hose.
>
>[...]
>
> 14. Is it okay to use water from the hot water tap for drinking,
> cooking, or making baby formula?
>
> Hot water generally comes from a hot water heater that may contain
> impurities that should not be ingested. Some of these impurities
> might be metals from household plumbing that are concentrated in
> the heating process. Additionally, these impurities from the
> household plumbing dissolve more rapidly in hot water than cold
> water causing the amount of impurities to be higher in hot water.
Everyone should read that whole FAQ before making any generalizations.
Pay special attention to things like this:
Chemicals called disinfectants are added to drinking water at the
treatment plant. Fairfax Water’s primary disinfectant is chlorine
and its chemical compounds. Chloramine, the combination of ammonia
and chlorine, form a stable bond that keeps a disinfectant residual
throughout the entire distribution system. During the spring months,
Fairfax Water performs its annual flushing. While that program is in
progress, the disinfectant is changed to free chlorine. Free Chorine
is an aggressive disinfectant that aids in the disinfection of the
flushed water mains. Fairfax Water is also beginning to utilize
ozone as a disinfectant. The use of ozone will allow the amount of
chloramine and free chlorine added in the treatment process to be
reduced.
Chlorine, ammonia and ozone are chemicals that are all very corrosive
to both metals and plastics.
6. Is the amount of chemicals found in the drinking water harmful?
In fact some chemicals like fluoride are added to the drinking water
to directly benefit the consumer. Minerals may also be beneficial
and many chemicals have no adverse effects on public health.
Notice they never answer the question.
9. I sometimes get a pink stain on my bathroom fixtures, and in my
pet’s water bowl. What is it and how do I get rid of it?
The pink stain (sometimes slimy in the way it feels) is generally a
mixture of non-pathogenic bacteria. These bacteria are believed to
be airborne and multiply in damp environments. Commercial cleansers
containing bleach are effective in killing the bacteria and getting
rid of the stain.
LOL.... "believed to be airborne", yet all the chlorine and ozone in
the water doesn't kill it. But for some strange reason, I don't have
pink stains in -my- bathroom....
10. All of the strainers in my faucets are clogging with white
particles. What could this be?.....
12. Why does tap water sometimes look milky or opaque?.....
17. Do I need to treat the tap water in any way before I place fish
in an aquarium?
Fairfax Water uses chlorine for disinfection purposes, which can be
harmful to fish if not dechlorinated prior to placing fish in it.
Yet it's safe for humans? Yeah, I'll pass on water from Fairfax, VA.
And I'll pass on the authority of your reference, which looks more
like a disclaimer from a utility company trying to avoid lawsuits.
>So what goes on in a water heater?
>
>http://www.water-research.net/sulfate.htm
>
> If hydrogen sulfide odor is associated primarily with the hot
> water system, a hot water heater modification may reduce the odor.
> Replacing the water heater's magnesium corrosion control rod with
> one made of aluminum or another metal may improve the situation.
Yet AGAIN you fail to mention the relevant issue -- the article is
talking about problems associated with hydrogen sulphide that is
ALREADY PRESENT in the drinking water.
As for water heater tanks:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_water_heater#Maintenance
In the past, tanks were made out of copper and were very corrosion
resistant;
Copper? GASP!!!!
they could last for decades. Now tanks are made out of steel lined
with glass or porcelain.[7] A steel tank can rust and leak. To
prevent this, sacrificial anode rods of magnesium or aluminum alloy
themselves undergo galvanic corrosion to reduce corrosion of the
steel tank.
>Yes, they are talking about a _sacrificial_ anode (metal rod) in the
>hot water heater. This metal (aluminum or magnesium) is CONSUMED by
>the process, and thus finds its way into the water supply.
Great. Except that aluminum oxide is insoluable in water and not
poisonous in any sense of the word. And while magnesium hydroxide is
only very slightly soluable, it isn't poisonous either. In fact, it's
the main ingredient in Milk of Magnesia.
Now are you done trolling? Or do you need to be disgraced even worse?
Retief
<wļrenut@NOSPAMļcehouse.net> wrote:
> >Ahhh, so the visible solder blobs on the heavy duty metal cans that I
> >looked at a few weeks back were large amounts of tin overflow/waste,
> >and not solder overflow from the joint? Very interesting...
>
> I see you are begging for an argument. Ok, you got one if for no other
> reason than to denounce your metallic mythology.
"Metallic mythology", gosh Frank, you must be _really_ smart...
<chuckle>
So why don't you demonstrate that by posting the US patents that
prevent you from building and selling LED lamps, that you mentioned in
another thread (and while you're at it, perhaps you can explain how
the manufacturers of LED lamps, that I posted earlier, have avoided
this prohibition)...
> I have never seen, nor will probably -ever- see, a garbage can that
> has been soldered together. There are some very simple reasons for
Because you won't look for one, as the existence of such would refute
your claim that there is no such thing.
> this. First, it's a friggin' garbage can. It's meant for garbage, not
> boiling water. It doesn't NEED to be soldered. Second, the cost of
Yes Frank, it's designed for storing garbage, and is not designed as a
food grade vessel (nor for boiling water).
And one thing that occurs in garbage, is decomposition and release of
liquids. This means that a good garbage can will be water tight.
Conversely, cheap ones will leak this material out onto the floor.
> lead is much higher than the cost of zinc, and since the can is going
> to be galvanized in the process of manufacture, what's the point?
Obviously soldering is a localized process, and is not used over the
entire surface of the can.
But red-herrings seem to be your M.O., Frank.
> Third, the process and materials involved in soldering cost much more
> than crimped seams and spot-welded handles, which have served the
Yes, and cheap garbage cans do not solder these joints (and we note
that cheap cans leak). More expensive garbage cans seal these joints,
and since it costs more, you pay more for these cans (and then you
generally avoid that leakage).
> If you saw a blob of metal and it was on a garbage can, either it was
> a manufacturing defect during galvanization or it was the result of
These blobs were visible on all the cans, right along the seams. Yes
Frank, they were soldered (the joint is filled, and filled joints
exhibit overflow).
> something that was done afterwards. Maybe someone -tried- to solder it
> but didn't know how (hence the blob). Or maybe you just made the story
> up. Either way, I would be more than happy to take pics of the garbage
> cans in my back yard and post them for everyone to see that they are
> not soldered at any point or in any way.
Wow, and the cans in your back yard are the only kind of cans that
exist in the world. Yes, this claim is consistent with your
Frank-centric world view.
> >I wonder what other poisonous metals might occur in this operation:
> >
> >http://www.du.edu/~jcalvert/phys/zinc.htm
> >
> > Cadmium is a by-product of zinc production, much rarer and used
> > only in small amounts. Cadmium is prettier than zinc, since it is
> > whiter, like tin or silver. A few percent hardens and strengthens
> > copper without decreasing its conductivity greatly. Cadmium copper
> > is used for electrical contact wires, where durability and low
> > resistance are both desirable. It also is used as a protective
> > coating for iron, in very thin films. [...]
>
> No selective quoting allowed. Here's the part you snipped:
Gosh Frank, I cited the page. I don't quote the whole page, as anyone
who wishes to pursue the subject further is free to read.
> These films alloy with the iron and are hard to damage in use, so
> cadmium-plated screws and bolts are found. It is used as the anode
> in rechargable nickel-cadmium cells. Its main use is in alloys,
> where it can replace the more expensive bismuth in fusible alloys.
> It can also replace expensive tin in some applications, such as
> solders.
And how does this statement refute the claim that these metals leach
into food and water, when they are used for food/water processing?
Oh, that's right, it doesn't. It is yet another Frank red-herring.
> I must be way out of touch since I still use good ol' 60/40 lead/tin
> solder. Gee, I wonder why.....
So you solder your water pipes and food containers with 60/40? Why or
why not? What does your State's regulations say about using lead
based solders for water systems? Hint: I'll bet it is forbidden.
BTW, I prefer 63/37 for my electronic use.
> > However, cadmium is extremely poisonous, more so even than mercury
> > or lead. It attacks the kidneys, among other things. Cadmium may
> > be essential to the rat metabolism, it is believed. Its use has
> > been strongly discouraged where its vapor or dust may be created,
> > or it is disposed of carelessly. However, cadmium is being
> > persecuted, like mercury and lead, although it is a completely
> > negligible hazard in its normal uses.
>
> Well -that- explains why I don't have lead/cadmium solder on my bench!
The reason you don't have it, is obviously because you didn't buy any:
http://www.cupalloys.com/products.php?productId=68
BTW, it's not recommended that you use these solders except under a
fume hood.
> >[...]
> > Zinc salts are poisionous, if not violently so.
>
> Great, except you left out this part:
>
> Pure zinc shows almost no reaction with water or dilute acids,
> because of the formation of a thin layer of hydrogen gas on its
> surface, or "polarization." Impure zinc, or zinc in the presence of
> copper or platinum, reacts readily with the evolution of hydrogen.
And you believe that this disproves my statement about the risks
of zinc or tin _contaminants_ (from impure zinc or tin sources)
leaching into water _how_...?
Oh, that's right, it doesn't disprove anything. It's a red-herring on
your part.
> > Spelter can be refined by liquation, where impurities are skimmed
> > from the top, and the liquids separated into one containing lead
> > and cadmium, and the other purified zinc. Better purification can
> > be obtained by fractional distillation, since zinc vaporizes at a
> > conveniently low temperature. There is also electrolysis, but zinc
> > produced by this method is quite pure anyway. All purification
> > costs money and loses zinc, so where less purity is satisfactory,
> > it is allowed. Lead, copper and tin, for example, do not have a
> > bad effect on brass. For die casting material, on the other hand,
> > it is essential to reduce lead, copper and tin to very small
> > amounts to avoid swelling and embrittlement.
>
> Whoops! Once again you forgot to include the more relevant part of the
> article, the part that occurs -before- the section you quoted:
>
> The usual process for the extraction of zinc from sulphide ores is
> as follows. First, the ore must be roasted in air to burn off the
> sulphur as SO2. When this gas is released to the atmosphere, it
> devastates the vegetation over a considerable area. However, it can
> be recovered and made into sulphuric acid, which can be used in the
> smelting process. A good deal of acid is left over for sale to
> improve the economics. The oxide from the roasting is then leached
> with the acid produced from the sulphur to produce zinc sulphate,
> which is then electrolyzed to the metal. This produces a good, pure
> zinc and is the currently favored process.
And you believe that this disproves my statement about the risks
of zinc or tin _contaminants_ (from impure zinc or tin sources)
leaching into water _how_...?
Oh, that's right, it doesn't disprove anything. It's a red-herring on
your part.
> >Historically (and indeed, until relatively recently) one could expect
> >a fair amount of contamination in zinc (seperation processes have
> >improved greatly over the last couple decades)
>
> Try the last -several- decades. I have a chemistry book from 1941 that
> describes electrolytic seperation as the primary purification process
> even -then-. Why? Because cadmium is more expensive than zinc so it's
> more economical to use the process that doesn't leave it in the zinc.
> And THAT'S why you don't have to worry about cadmium in your zinc!
Gosh Frank, all that reading and you missed this part:
http://www.du.edu/~jcalvert/phys/zinc.htm
All purification costs money and loses zinc, so where less purity
is satisfactory, it is allowed.
And since a garbage can is not a food grade container, one can bet
that the manufacturer does not use the most pure grade tin or zinc
available (as that would be a waste of money).
> >> >it's not an unusual alloy, with nasties). Copper vessels will leach
> >> >copper. Brass (being an alloy) will leach all sorts of things.
> >>
> >> None of which is of any concern.
> >
> >Really Frank?
>
> Really, nameless one.
Wow, such an impressive list of red-herrings you have produced.
Unfortunately, none of them have addressed my statement about the
risks of zinc or tin _contaminants_ (from impure zinc or tin sources)
leaching into water.
> >http://www.haworthpress.com/store/ArticleAbstract.asp?sid=GDA5UU0GQMJK9KCKEC1F5UBXPA9KD5T9&ID=93178
> >
> > A foodborne disease characterized by nausea, abdominal pain and
> > vomiting in University Hostel students was investigated.
> > Epidemiological and laboratory investigations indicated that the
> > disease was associated with the consumption of rice and soup
> > contaminated with lead and copper. Lead was detected in rice (1
> > 19.65 ppm), soup (42.6 ppm), vegetable curry (42.9) and vomitus
> > (120.6 ppm) while copper was detected in soup (47.0 ppm) and
> > vomitus (40.2 ppm). Metal entry into the food was due to improper
> > tin coating of the copper vessels used for cooking.
>
> This is only an abstract. It doesn't indicate the source of the lead
I thought you could read, Frank:
"Metal entry into the food was due to improper tin coating of the
copper vessels used for cooking."
> or the length of exposure. Nor does it say why the concentration of
Length of exposure is the whole point, Frank. Many problems arise
from chronic exposure, rather than acute exposure.
> lead in the puke was higher than in the food -- which suggests that
> the lead came from another source. Without more information your
> source is basically worthless. But the article does sound interesting.
And thus Frank declares the article worthless, as it refutes his
earlier claim.
> >Copper poisoning:
> >
> >http://books.google.com/books?id=vxMOgExe7YcC&pg=PA507&lpg=PA507&dq=cooking+in+copper+vessels&source=web&ots=rLuk-0ttjE&sig=osDgn-v5m2kogjMiKT00knKXQXc
>
> I don't have any problems saying that copper is poisonous. But what
> you -didn't- mention was that copper, even in trace amounts, gives
> food a bitter, metallic taste. And because of this, accidental copper
> poisoning via copper in the food is very rare. If the students from
> your previous 'source' really did eat soup that was contaminated with
> copper then I suspect the soup tasted pretty bad (hence the vomit).
However, these metals leaching into your food and water produce
chronic exposure.
> >Brass poisoning:
> >
> >http://books.google.com/books?id=_P0NozwCJUkC&pg=PA206&lpg=PA206&dq=cooking+in+brass+vessels+poison&source=web&ots=jWrmSv12rg&sig=wVy2KFnKKbWLbuQgXBfMRgpMzlY
> >
> >http://www.du.edu/~jcalvert/phys/zinc.htm
> >
> > Lead, copper and tin, for example, do not have a bad effect on
> > brass. For die casting material, on the other hand, it is
> > essential to reduce lead, copper and tin to very small amounts to
> > avoid swelling and embrittlement.
>
> Fine. So? You're still going to taste the copper before you eat enough
> to make you sick. Don't believe me? Go lick a copper pipe.
However, these metals leaching into your food and water produce
chronic exposure. Notice how Frank focuses in on copper, and ignores
the more dangerous lead contaminants.
> >> >Did we miss anything? Yes, even the water from your hot water tank
> >> >should be treated as "not food grade" (after all, it's a tank of hot
> >> >water, with lots of time to leach chemicals, metals and whatnot into
> >> >solution).
> >>
> >> Now you are trolling. Too bad -- you almost had a good post but then
> >> you go an ruin it.
> >
> >Do you struggle to be this ignorant, or does it come naturally?
> >Unlike you, I chose not to give advice that will kill the reader.
> >
> >http://www.fcwa.org/water/faq.htm
> >
> > 3. Is it safe to drink water from a garden hose?
> >
> > Substances used in vinyl garden hoses to keep them flexible can
> > get into the water as it passes through the hose. These
> > substances are not good for you or your pets. There are hoses made
> > with "food-grade" plastic that will not contaminate the water.
> > Check your local hardware store for this type of hose.
> >
> >[...]
> >
> > 14. Is it okay to use water from the hot water tap for drinking,
> > cooking, or making baby formula?
> >
> > Hot water generally comes from a hot water heater that may contain
> > impurities that should not be ingested. Some of these impurities
> > might be metals from household plumbing that are concentrated in
> > the heating process. Additionally, these impurities from the
> > household plumbing dissolve more rapidly in hot water than cold
> > water causing the amount of impurities to be higher in hot water.
>
> Everyone should read that whole FAQ before making any generalizations.
> Pay special attention to things like this:
Yes Frank, I posted the link so the reader could read the link.
But it seems that you are another one of these clowns who claims that
data has been concealed from you, by the posting of the link which
contains the reference data...
> 9. I sometimes get a pink stain on my bathroom fixtures, and in my
> petā€™s water bowl. What is it and how do I get rid of it?
>
> The pink stain (sometimes slimy in the way it feels) is generally a
> mixture of non-pathogenic bacteria. These bacteria are believed to
Also commonly known as "iron bacteria".
http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/water/dwg/febact.htm
> LOL.... "believed to be airborne", yet all the chlorine and ozone in
> the water doesn't kill it. But for some strange reason, I don't have
> pink stains in -my- bathroom....
You apparently don't have enough iron in your water system to support
a colony. Iron bacteria is a nuisance, not life threatening.
But I suppose that Frank thinks that he is right, and all of those
other sources that discuss the problem are completely _wrong_...
> Yet it's safe for humans? Yeah, I'll pass on water from Fairfax, VA.
> And I'll pass on the authority of your reference, which looks more
Of course you'll pass on the authority of my references, Frank. Those
references refute your claims.
> >So what goes on in a water heater?
> >
> >http://www.water-research.net/sulfate.htm
> >
> > If hydrogen sulfide odor is associated primarily with the hot
> > water system, a hot water heater modification may reduce the odor.
> > Replacing the water heater's magnesium corrosion control rod with
> > one made of aluminum or another metal may improve the situation.
>
> Yet AGAIN you fail to mention the relevant issue -- the article is
> talking about problems associated with hydrogen sulphide that is
> ALREADY PRESENT in the drinking water.
The article is explaining to you that the anode prevents/inhibits the
hydrogen sulfide problem. This rod It does so by REACTING with the
water and contaminants, and is ultimately (chemically) CONSUMED. If
this metal is leaving that rod, it is going _somewhere_, and that
_somewhere_ is into your hot water supply.
Again, intermittent contact/consumption is not likely to be a health
hazard, but regular/daily consumption may result in chronic
conditions..
> they could last for decades. Now tanks are made out of steel lined
> with glass or porcelain.[7] A steel tank can rust and leak. To
> prevent this, sacrificial anode rods of magnesium or aluminum alloy
> themselves undergo galvanic corrosion to reduce corrosion of the
> steel tank.
Gosh, I wonder where that MG and AL goes, Frank?
> >Yes, they are talking about a _sacrificial_ anode (metal rod) in the
> >hot water heater. This metal (aluminum or magnesium) is CONSUMED by
> >the process, and thus finds its way into the water supply.
>
> Great. Except that aluminum oxide is insoluable in water and not
So where does that metallic aluminum go, Frank? It left the rod, so
it went somewhere.
Note also that Frank claims the AL only leaves the rod as aluminum
oxide, whereas it may leave as any number of compounds.
> Now are you done trolling? Or do you need to be disgraced even worse?
Gosh Frank, you are going to disgrace me? That must mean that you are
finally going to produce data which refutes my statements. You have
failed to do so thus far.
BTW, I'm still waiting for you to post the US patents that prevent you
from building and selling LED lamps (and while you're at it, perhaps
you can explain how the manufacturers of LED lamps, that I posted
earlier, have avoided this prohibition)...
Retief
Frank Gilliland
wrote in <025ab3d4n2b5v3aac...@4ax.com>:
>On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 21:37:53 -0700, Frank Gilliland
><wļrenut@NOSPAMļcehouse.net> wrote:
>
>> >Ahhh, so the visible solder blobs on the heavy duty metal cans that I
>> >looked at a few weeks back were large amounts of tin overflow/waste,
>> >and not solder overflow from the joint? Very interesting...
>>
>> I see you are begging for an argument. Ok, you got one if for no other
>> reason than to denounce your metallic mythology.
>
>"Metallic mythology", gosh Frank, you must be _really_ smart...
><chuckle>
>
>So why don't you demonstrate that by posting the US patents that
>prevent you from building and selling LED lamps, that you mentioned in
>another thread (and while you're at it, perhaps you can explain how
>the manufacturers of LED lamps, that I posted earlier, have avoided
>this prohibition)...
How about you go back and read the entire thread?
>> I have never seen, nor will probably -ever- see, a garbage can that
>> has been soldered together. There are some very simple reasons for
>
>Because you won't look for one, as the existence of such would refute
>your claim that there is no such thing.
Do you have a reading deficiency? I said, "I have never seen, nor will
probably -ever- see....", which is not the same as "there is no such
thing". If you have one, post the pic.
>> this. First, it's a friggin' garbage can. It's meant for garbage, not
>> boiling water. It doesn't NEED to be soldered. Second, the cost of
>
>Yes Frank, it's designed for storing garbage, and is not designed as a
>food grade vessel (nor for boiling water).
>
>And one thing that occurs in garbage, is decomposition and release of
>liquids. This means that a good garbage can will be water tight.
>Conversely, cheap ones will leak this material out onto the floor.
Yes they do.
>> lead is much higher than the cost of zinc, and since the can is going
>> to be galvanized in the process of manufacture, what's the point?
>
>Obviously soldering is a localized process, and is not used over the
>entire surface of the can.
>
>But red-herrings seem to be your M.O., Frank.
Call it what you like, but a tightly crimped seam with a coating of
zinc on top does a pretty good job.
>> Third, the process and materials involved in soldering cost much more
>> than crimped seams and spot-welded handles, which have served the
>
>Yes, and cheap garbage cans do not solder these joints (and we note
>that cheap cans leak). More expensive garbage cans seal these joints,
>and since it costs more, you pay more for these cans (and then you
>generally avoid that leakage).
Show me one and I'll believe you.
>> If you saw a blob of metal and it was on a garbage can, either it was
>> a manufacturing defect during galvanization or it was the result of
>
>These blobs were visible on all the cans, right along the seams. Yes
>Frank, they were soldered (the joint is filled, and filled joints
>exhibit overflow).
Pics? Reference? Anything?
>> something that was done afterwards. Maybe someone -tried- to solder it
>> but didn't know how (hence the blob). Or maybe you just made the story
>> up. Either way, I would be more than happy to take pics of the garbage
>> cans in my back yard and post them for everyone to see that they are
>> not soldered at any point or in any way.
>
>Wow, and the cans in your back yard are the only kind of cans that
>exist in the world. Yes, this claim is consistent with your
>Frank-centric world view.
Do you have a reading deficiency? I said, "I have never seen, nor will
probably -ever- see....", which is not the same as "there is no such
thing". If you have one, post the pic.
Wow, I just had a deja-vu thing.....
What do your State's regulations say about solid waste containers
using lead based solders?
>BTW, I prefer 63/37 for my electronic use.
To each his own. What's your point?
>> > However, cadmium is extremely poisonous, more so even than mercury
>> > or lead. It attacks the kidneys, among other things. Cadmium may
>> > be essential to the rat metabolism, it is believed. Its use has
>> > been strongly discouraged where its vapor or dust may be created,
>> > or it is disposed of carelessly. However, cadmium is being
>> > persecuted, like mercury and lead, although it is a completely
>> > negligible hazard in its normal uses.
>>
>> Well -that- explains why I don't have lead/cadmium solder on my bench!
>
>The reason you don't have it, is obviously because you didn't buy any:
>
>http://www.cupalloys.com/products.php?productId=68
>
>BTW, it's not recommended that you use these solders except under a
>fume hood.
That's for reiterating my point. And -your- point is.... what?
>> >[...]
>> > Zinc salts are poisionous, if not violently so.
>>
>> Great, except you left out this part:
>>
>> Pure zinc shows almost no reaction with water or dilute acids,
>> because of the formation of a thin layer of hydrogen gas on its
>> surface, or "polarization." Impure zinc, or zinc in the presence of
>> copper or platinum, reacts readily with the evolution of hydrogen.
>
>And you believe that this disproves my statement about the risks
>of zinc or tin _contaminants_ (from impure zinc or tin sources)
>leaching into water
Pretty much. And I noticed you added tin to the topic after the fact.
Gee, I wonder why.....
> _how_...?
>
>Oh, that's right, it doesn't disprove anything. It's a red-herring on
>your part.
What's the deal with you and red herring?
BTW, zinc galvanization doesn't work over solder (lead, tin or
cadmium) because the electrochemical potentials between those metals
and zinc will -promote- corrosion, not -prevent- it. So if your
mystery garbage can really -is- soldered then galvanization with zinc
will make it fall apart in a very short time. Is -that- why mine are
cheap and your's are so expensive?
>> >Historically (and indeed, until relatively recently) one could expect
>> >a fair amount of contamination in zinc (seperation processes have
>> >improved greatly over the last couple decades)
>>
>> Try the last -several- decades. I have a chemistry book from 1941 that
>> describes electrolytic seperation as the primary purification process
>> even -then-. Why? Because cadmium is more expensive than zinc so it's
>> more economical to use the process that doesn't leave it in the zinc.
>> And THAT'S why you don't have to worry about cadmium in your zinc!
>
>Gosh Frank, all that reading and you missed this part:
>
>http://www.du.edu/~jcalvert/phys/zinc.htm
>
> All purification costs money and loses zinc, so where less purity
> is satisfactory, it is allowed.
Followed by:
Lead, copper and tin, for example, do not have a bad effect on
brass. For die casting material, on the other hand, it is essential
to reduce lead, copper and tin to very small amounts to avoid
swelling and embrittlement.
Gee, I don't see anything there about impure zinc being satisfactory
for galvanization. In fact, your previous citation notes that impure
zinc is subject to corrosion even by water. Since the purpose of
galvanization is to PREVENT corrosion, it makes no sense to use impure
zinc.
>And since a garbage can is not a food grade container, one can bet
>that the manufacturer does not use the most pure grade tin or zinc
>available (as that would be a waste of money).
YOU can bet but I wouldn't. Unless the can is made in China, I have a
feeling that it was made to do it's purpose for a reasonable amount of
time without rusting away at the zinc-over-solder seams.
>> >> >it's not an unusual alloy, with nasties). Copper vessels will leach
>> >> >copper. Brass (being an alloy) will leach all sorts of things.
>> >>
>> >> None of which is of any concern.
>> >
>> >Really Frank?
>>
>> Really, nameless one.
>
>Wow, such an impressive list of red-herrings you have produced.
>
>Unfortunately, none of them have addressed my statement about the
>risks of zinc or tin _contaminants_ (from impure zinc or tin sources)
>leaching into water.
If you read carefully you will see that YOU provided all the
references needed to disprove your own half-baked theories. Thank you
very much.
>> >http://www.haworthpress.com/store/ArticleAbstract.asp?sid=GDA5UU0GQMJK9KCKEC1F5UBXPA9KD5T9&ID=93178
>> >
>> > A foodborne disease characterized by nausea, abdominal pain and
>> > vomiting in University Hostel students was investigated.
>> > Epidemiological and laboratory investigations indicated that the
>> > disease was associated with the consumption of rice and soup
>> > contaminated with lead and copper. Lead was detected in rice (1
>> > 19.65 ppm), soup (42.6 ppm), vegetable curry (42.9) and vomitus
>> > (120.6 ppm) while copper was detected in soup (47.0 ppm) and
>> > vomitus (40.2 ppm). Metal entry into the food was due to improper
>> > tin coating of the copper vessels used for cooking.
>>
>> This is only an abstract. It doesn't indicate the source of the lead
>
>I thought you could read, Frank:
>
> "Metal entry into the food was due to improper tin coating of the
> copper vessels used for cooking."
>
>> or the length of exposure. Nor does it say why the concentration of
>
>Length of exposure is the whole point, Frank. Many problems arise
>from chronic exposure, rather than acute exposure.
I agree. So where in that abstract does it state the length of
exposure?
>> lead in the puke was higher than in the food -- which suggests that
>> the lead came from another source. Without more information your
>> source is basically worthless. But the article does sound interesting.
>
>And thus Frank declares the article worthless, as it refutes his
>earlier claim.
It refutes nothing because there isn't enough information. If you have
the whole article I would like to read it. But an abstract alone does
not a thesis make.
>> >Copper poisoning:
>> >
>> >http://books.google.com/books?id=vxMOgExe7YcC&pg=PA507&lpg=PA507&dq=cooking+in+copper+vessels&source=web&ots=rLuk-0ttjE&sig=osDgn-v5m2kogjMiKT00knKXQXc
>>
>> I don't have any problems saying that copper is poisonous. But what
>> you -didn't- mention was that copper, even in trace amounts, gives
>> food a bitter, metallic taste. And because of this, accidental copper
>> poisoning via copper in the food is very rare. If the students from
>> your previous 'source' really did eat soup that was contaminated with
>> copper then I suspect the soup tasted pretty bad (hence the vomit).
>
>However, these metals leaching into your food and water produce
>chronic exposure.
Did you miss the part about the copper hot water heater tanks? Or do
you think that the OP intends to boil water in a garbage can for the
next 30 years?
>> >Brass poisoning:
>> >
>> >http://books.google.com/books?id=_P0NozwCJUkC&pg=PA206&lpg=PA206&dq=cooking+in+brass+vessels+poison&source=web&ots=jWrmSv12rg&sig=wVy2KFnKKbWLbuQgXBfMRgpMzlY
>> >
>> >http://www.du.edu/~jcalvert/phys/zinc.htm
>> >
>> > Lead, copper and tin, for example, do not have a bad effect on
>> > brass. For die casting material, on the other hand, it is
>> > essential to reduce lead, copper and tin to very small amounts to
>> > avoid swelling and embrittlement.
>>
>> Fine. So? You're still going to taste the copper before you eat enough
>> to make you sick. Don't believe me? Go lick a copper pipe.
>
>However, these metals leaching into your food and water produce
>chronic exposure. Notice how Frank focuses in on copper, and ignores
>the more dangerous lead contaminants.
Because copper is the primary metal, and if it's leaching into your
food then you can taste it and fix the problem -before- you die from
lead poisoning. PLEASE tell me that you could figure that out but were
just arguing for the sake of arguing, because the alternative would
mean that you are a member at Gunner's House of Morons.
I really don't care what it's called.
>> LOL.... "believed to be airborne", yet all the chlorine and ozone in
>> the water doesn't kill it. But for some strange reason, I don't have
>> pink stains in -my- bathroom....
>
>You apparently don't have enough iron in your water system to support
>a colony. Iron bacteria is a nuisance, not life threatening.
>
>But I suppose that Frank thinks that he is right, and all of those
>other sources that discuss the problem are completely _wrong_...
Life threatening or not, it's still suspicious how all the ozone and
chlorine in the water doesn't kill it.
>> Yet it's safe for humans? Yeah, I'll pass on water from Fairfax, VA.
>> And I'll pass on the authority of your reference, which looks more
>
>Of course you'll pass on the authority of my references, Frank. Those
>references refute your claims.
They refute nothing except -your- claims. YOU said that a hot water
heater tank is unsafe, yet you reference a FAQ from a utility company
with serious water quality issues -- so serious that they pump in
enough chemicals to kill fish, rot garden hoses, and chew up pipes and
tanks -- and it's still not enough to kill the pink slime. The ADDED
CHEMICALS are the cause of -those- problems and has nothing to do with
your claim that a hot water heater tank is inherently unsafe.
>> >So what goes on in a water heater?
>> >
>> >http://www.water-research.net/sulfate.htm
>> >
>> > If hydrogen sulfide odor is associated primarily with the hot
>> > water system, a hot water heater modification may reduce the odor.
>> > Replacing the water heater's magnesium corrosion control rod with
>> > one made of aluminum or another metal may improve the situation.
>>
>> Yet AGAIN you fail to mention the relevant issue -- the article is
>> talking about problems associated with hydrogen sulphide that is
>> ALREADY PRESENT in the drinking water.
>
>The article is explaining to you that the anode prevents/inhibits the
>hydrogen sulfide problem. This rod It does so by REACTING with the
>water and contaminants, and is ultimately (chemically) CONSUMED. If
>this metal is leaving that rod, it is going _somewhere_, and that
>_somewhere_ is into your hot water supply.
>
>Again, intermittent contact/consumption is not likely to be a health
>hazard, but regular/daily consumption may result in chronic
>conditions..
>
>> they could last for decades. Now tanks are made out of steel lined
>> with glass or porcelain.[7] A steel tank can rust and leak. To
>> prevent this, sacrificial anode rods of magnesium or aluminum alloy
>> themselves undergo galvanic corrosion to reduce corrosion of the
>> steel tank.
>
>Gosh, I wonder where that MG and AL goes, Frank?
To the bottom of the tank.
>> >Yes, they are talking about a _sacrificial_ anode (metal rod) in the
>> >hot water heater. This metal (aluminum or magnesium) is CONSUMED by
>> >the process, and thus finds its way into the water supply.
>>
>> Great. Except that aluminum oxide is insoluable in water and not
>
>So where does that metallic aluminum go, Frank? It left the rod, so
>it went somewhere.
>
>Note also that Frank claims the AL only leaves the rod as aluminum
>oxide, whereas it may leave as any number of compounds.
No, it doesn't. Aluminum has a special affinity for oxygen and it's
extremely stable. I said before that it is insoluable in water. It is
also heavier than water and therefore sinks. Hot water is drawn from
the top of the tank. Therefore, the aluminum oxide collects in the
bottom of the tank. You can verify this yourself by cutting open an
old hot water heater tank and see for yourself (I've done it several
times).
I also mentioned that it is also not poisonous. If it were then we
would all be dead a long time ago from rock poisoning since it is one
of the most prevalent substances on the Earth's crust, not to mention
coffee mugs and porcelain plates.
>> Now are you done trolling? Or do you need to be disgraced even worse?
>
>Gosh Frank, you are going to disgrace me?
I already have, several times. Actually, you disgraced yourself, but
that's just a minor detail.....
> That must mean that you are
>finally going to produce data which refutes my statements. You have
>failed to do so thus far.
Why should I? Everything you have cited so far has done an excellent
job at refuting your statements. Maybe some day you'll learn to read
an entire article instead of looking just for key phrases that you can
quote out of context.
>BTW, I'm still waiting for you to post the US patents that prevent you
>from building and selling LED lamps (and while you're at it, perhaps
>you can explain how the manufacturers of LED lamps, that I posted
>earlier, have avoided this prohibition)...
And I'm still waiting for you to post something that resembles the
facts. For some reason I don't think either will happen anytime soon.
Usene...@the-domain-in.sig
Dum...@hotmail.com says...
> Offbreed wrote:
> > Bob Brock wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Wasn't a big loss. I'm partial to stainless steel and cast iron I
> >> don't like Teflon either, but that's a whole different story.
> >
> >
> > I was glad of the scare because all the local camping supply stores only
> > had aluminum cook gear, and that sucks for durability. They finally got
> > some stainless back in.
> >
> > Now the fad is for titanium, and the price is attention getting.
>
> there was a KFC store collecting the pull tabs off the coke cans , they
> were trying to get enough titanum to make a flase leg for a local girl .
>
> Im interested in the metal , if pull tabs are a source , they are easy
> to get in big numbers , how easy is it to melt and cast ?
I recall once reading an amusing factoid about marketing.
Credit card companies (especially in the US) introduced "Gold"
versions of Visa and MasterCard. Which were higher class than
the regular cards. And, after a few years, they escalated higher
to "Platinum" cards. Because that is a more expensive metal.
Although, of course, it was just a word, and general standards
for product features in this case.
And, a few years later, they introduced "Titanium" Visa cards.
Because it sounds even more exotic and rare.
But, underneath the marketing hype, titanium is apparently so
cheap that they could almost afford to manufacture the physical
cards out of it.
--
Want Privacy?
http://www.MinistryOfPrivacy.com/
Offbreed
>
> But, underneath the marketing hype, titanium is apparently so
> cheap that they could almost afford to manufacture the physical
> cards out of it.
>
>
http://www.gearlog.com/2006/07/titanium_amex_card_forced_cons.php
But, consider how many titanium cards have been issued? What's the
annual fee on them?
Admiral Cigneous
> Hello, need to get a big water container to be able to boil several
> gallons of water at a time. Big steel & aluminum pots are kinda
> expensive. I see galvanized steel garbage cans at Ace for only $20
> for like a 20 gallon can. But not sure if it's safe use galvanized
> metals. I've heard of zinc poisoning before so I just want to be sure
> if these cans will work.
> survival sites are appreciated.
>
> TIA
> J
doubt you can release any fumes when only the hot water is touching the Metal Can of any size or shape, use a heating element to heat the water not the can.. you did not say how much water you wanted to heat in that 20 gal can... or what you were going to do.. simple enough to scoop out boiling water with a smaller pail.. BUT.. you could use something like an Immersion Water Heater for Boiling Bath Water, Portable Electric 304 Stainless Heater Outdoor with Guard Cover - LCD Thermometer, for Motorhome Tub Buckets, Boils 5 Gallon Bucket of Water in Minutes..
(*drops michrophone and walks off stage*) Yarr Harr