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Ruby Ridge Debacle
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PaxPerPoten
Aug 30, 2017, 1:44:55 AM8/30/17
to
This week PBS is broadcasting the documentary "Ruby Ridge". It is one
hour long and worth the watch. A lot of the real facts have been downplayed.
--
It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard
the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all
ages who mean to govern well, but *They mean to govern*. They promise to
be good masters, *but they mean to be masters*. Daniel Webster
a425couple
Aug 30, 2017, 10:43:50 AM8/30/17
to
On 8/29/2017 10:44 PM, PaxPerPoten wrote:
>
> This week PBS is broadcasting the documentary "Ruby Ridge". It is one
> hour long and worth the watch. A lot of the real facts have been
> downplayed.
The Wikipedia article is pretty fair.
>
> This week PBS is broadcasting the documentary "Ruby Ridge". It is one
> hour long and worth the watch. A lot of the real facts have been
> downplayed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge
Quite a fair number of the Federal Law Enforcement
professionals I knew, were also horrified at several
of the stupid 'high handed' actions of the Feds here.
Several actions were reprehensible!
It is often very good to have the "Feds".
But for those who think Federal Law Enforcement agencies
are automatically better than local, this should be required
reading. There is great value in a locally elected
county sheriff. And in the many locally responsive
community orientated professional police agencies.
Dennis
Aug 30, 2017, 6:07:51 PM8/30/17
to
PaxPerPoten wrote:
> This week PBS is broadcasting the documentary "Ruby Ridge". It is one
> hour long and worth the watch. A lot of the real facts have been
> downplayed.
Yes! With Rub Ridge and Waco, our untra-nationalists were given good
> This week PBS is broadcasting the documentary "Ruby Ridge". It is one
> hour long and worth the watch. A lot of the real facts have been
> downplayed.
reason to be paranoid!
Dennis
PaxPerPoten
Aug 31, 2017, 1:33:18 AM8/31/17
to
Shotgun from Randy Weaver who was broke. But they wouldn't buy it unless
he cut the barrel down to an illegal size. He did and they arrested him.
I was surprised to see that he was a Green Beany. Obviously he was not
expecting to have a full assault on him and his family or they might
have lost a helluva a lot of Feds to booby traps etc. Also the Militant
groups would have mobilized to help him. 400 fucking Feds for one sawed
off shotgun~ Wow!
rbowman
Aug 31, 2017, 9:50:43 AM8/31/17
to
On 08/30/2017 11:33 PM, PaxPerPoten wrote:
> The whole point of that operation was the Feds offering to purchase a
> Shotgun from Randy Weaver who was broke. But they wouldn't buy it unless
> he cut the barrel down to an illegal size. He did and they arrested him.
To expand on that, Weaver had attended rallies at Aryan Nations in
> The whole point of that operation was the Feds offering to purchase a
> Shotgun from Randy Weaver who was broke. But they wouldn't buy it unless
> he cut the barrel down to an illegal size. He did and they arrested him.
Hayden Lake and was befriended by an ATF CI. The CI tried to get Weaver
to introduce him to a Montana group. When Weaver declined They attempted
to use the firearms charge as leverage to turn Weaver into a CI at AN,
like Mueller is trying to recruit rats at the moment.
Aryan Nations was subsequently put out of business by a SPLC suit. One
wonders what the SPLC did with the proceeds of the suit.
http://freebeacon.com/issues/southern-poverty-law-center-transfers-millions-in-cash-to-offshore-entities/
a425couple
Aug 31, 2017, 11:35:14 AM8/31/17
to
On 8/31/2017 7:29 AM, Daryl wrote:
> released for the election.
Well Daryl, it certainly seems like you disagree with
PaxPerPoten.
But please be clear:
Are you believing the Federal law enforcement actions
at Ruby Ridge were good?
Are you even believing the Federal law enforcement actions
at Ruby Ridge were reasonable?
> On 8/30/2017 11:33 PM, PaxPerPoten wrote:
>> On 8/30/2017 9:42 AM, a425couple wrote:
>>> On 8/29/2017 10:44 PM, PaxPerPoten wrote:
>>>>
>>>> This week PBS is broadcasting the documentary "Ruby Ridge". It is one
>>>> hour long and worth the watch. A lot of the real facts have been
>>>> downplayed.
>>>
>>> The Wikipedia article is pretty fair.
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge
>>>
>>> Quite a fair number of the Federal Law Enforcement
>>> professionals I knew, were also horrified at several
>>> of the stupid 'high handed' actions of the Feds here.
>>> Several actions were reprehensible!
>>>
>>> It is often very good to have the "Feds".
>>> But for those who think Federal Law Enforcement agencies
>>> are automatically better than local, this should be required
>>> reading. There is great value in a locally elected
>>> county sheriff. And in the many locally responsive
>>> community orientated professional police agencies.
>> On 8/30/2017 9:42 AM, a425couple wrote:
>>> On 8/29/2017 10:44 PM, PaxPerPoten wrote:
>>>>
>>>> This week PBS is broadcasting the documentary "Ruby Ridge". It is one
>>>> hour long and worth the watch. A lot of the real facts have been
>>>> downplayed.
>>>
>>> The Wikipedia article is pretty fair.
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge
>>>
>>> Quite a fair number of the Federal Law Enforcement
>>> professionals I knew, were also horrified at several
>>> of the stupid 'high handed' actions of the Feds here.
>>> Several actions were reprehensible!
>>>
>>> It is often very good to have the "Feds".
>>> But for those who think Federal Law Enforcement agencies
>>> are automatically better than local, this should be required
>>> reading. There is great value in a locally elected
>>> county sheriff. And in the many locally responsive
>>
>> The whole point of that operation was the Feds offering to purchase a
>> Shotgun from Randy Weaver who was broke. But they wouldn't buy it unless
>> he cut the barrel down to an illegal size. He did and they arrested him.
>> I was surprised to see that he was a Green Beany. Obviously he was not
>> expecting to have a full assault on him and his family or they might
>> have lost a helluva a lot of Feds to booby traps etc. Also the Militant
>> groups would have mobilized to help him. 400 fucking Feds for one sawed
>> off shotgun~ Wow!
>
> Well, Comrade, you certainly sound like one of the thousand or so Trolls
>> The whole point of that operation was the Feds offering to purchase a
>> Shotgun from Randy Weaver who was broke. But they wouldn't buy it unless
>> he cut the barrel down to an illegal size. He did and they arrested him.
>> I was surprised to see that he was a Green Beany. Obviously he was not
>> expecting to have a full assault on him and his family or they might
>> have lost a helluva a lot of Feds to booby traps etc. Also the Militant
>> groups would have mobilized to help him. 400 fucking Feds for one sawed
>> off shotgun~ Wow!
>
> released for the election.
Well Daryl, it certainly seems like you disagree with
PaxPerPoten.
But please be clear:
Are you believing the Federal law enforcement actions
at Ruby Ridge were good?
Are you even believing the Federal law enforcement actions
at Ruby Ridge were reasonable?
PaxPerPoten
Sep 1, 2017, 3:38:57 AM9/1/17
to
that the Weavers were Very religious and were end time survivors. As for
your statement that they were involved with the Aryan Nations...Nothing
was said. But in Idaho..Just breathing makes you part of the Militant
culture in Federal minds. Most people I have encountered in those
militant groups were armed to the teeth with Automatic weapons and not
some paltry old sawed off shotgun. I understand they found Claymores,
Grenades and Mortars at the Aryan Nations compound. I think the Feds
attacked the Weavers because they were scared to death to attack the
Aryan Nations outfit.
Winston Smith
Sep 1, 2017, 9:00:05 AM9/1/17
to
On Thu, 31 Aug 2017 00:33:20 -0500, PaxPerPoten wrote:
>The whole point of that operation was the Feds offering to purchase a
>Shotgun from Randy Weaver who was broke. But they wouldn't buy it unless
>he cut the barrel down to an illegal size. He did and they arrested him.
If memory serves, the barrel was short by the smallest bit below the
>The whole point of that operation was the Feds offering to purchase a
>Shotgun from Randy Weaver who was broke. But they wouldn't buy it unless
>he cut the barrel down to an illegal size. He did and they arrested him.
legal limit. A quarter inch turns up in my surfing and then there are
wrinkles like the barrel was legal but the overall weapon length
became a 1/4'' too short (or did he "shorten it" by sanding the stock.
Also whether the feds measured just the barrel and not to the bolt
face and even then if they erroneously used the tip of the firing pin
in the fired position as a reference.
Remember they wanted to recruit him, not prosecute him, so they could
use tricks that a court would have thrown out later. I'm not sure
anyone has examined the actual weapon in question. Beside the
entrapment, there might have been evidence fraud.
Either which way, enough for a conviction; no effect on its pattern
from a legal length. It's not like he turned it into the room clearer
from gangster movie days. Weaver should have smelled a rat there. In
fact, Weaver claimed he didn't do any shortening. He should have
smelled a rat when they offered him $100 as is - sweetened to $5,000
if he cut it down.
Every time we find some "right wing nuts" in trouble with the law we
find the story waist deep in government provocateurs railroading all
sorts of entrapment schemes. If they paid half the attention to antifa
and the like ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randy_Weaver
"ATF informant Kenneth Faderley (posing as a biker named Gus Magisono)
... presented himself as an illegal firearms dealer from New Jersey.
... Weaver supplied two modified shotguns to Faderley. While the ATF
maintained that the weapons supplied by Weaver were illegally
shortened when Faderley received them, Weaver has claimed otherwise.
...
The DOJ Ruby Ridge Task Force Report (1994) records that Faderley
stated Weaver showed him an unaltered shotgun and Faderley pointed out
where he wanted Weaver to cut the gun. The ATF wanted to use Weaver to
introduce Faderley to Charles Howarth who was starting a group in
Montana, after which the ATF intended to drop the Kumnick and Weaver
investigations. "
CanopyCo
Sep 1, 2017, 9:47:43 AM9/1/17
to
On Friday, September 1, 2017 at 8:00:05 AM UTC-5, Winston Smith wrote:
> On Thu, 31 Aug 2017 00:33:20 -0500, PaxPerPoten wrote:
>
> >The whole point of that operation was the Feds offering to purchase a
> >Shotgun from Randy Weaver who was broke. But they wouldn't buy it unless
> >he cut the barrel down to an illegal size. He did and they arrested him.
>
> If memory serves, the barrel was short by the smallest bit below the
> legal limit. A quarter inch turns up in my surfing and then there are
> wrinkles like the barrel was legal but the overall weapon length
> became a 1/4'' too short (or did he "shorten it" by sanding the stock.
> Also whether the feds measured just the barrel and not to the bolt
> face and even then if they erroneously used the tip of the firing pin
> in the fired position as a reference.
>
> Remember they wanted to recruit him, not prosecute him, so they could
> use tricks that a court would have thrown out later. I'm not sure
> anyone has examined the actual weapon in question. Beside the
> entrapment, there might have been evidence fraud.
>
> Either which way, enough for a conviction; no effect on its pattern
> from a legal length. It's not like he turned it into the room clearer
> from gangster movie days. Weaver should have smelled a rat there. In
> fact, Weaver claimed he didn't do any shortening. He should have
> smelled a rat when they offered him $100 as is - sweetened to $5,000
> if he cut it down.
>
Barrel length of a break open shotgun is a tricky proposition.
> On Thu, 31 Aug 2017 00:33:20 -0500, PaxPerPoten wrote:
>
> >The whole point of that operation was the Feds offering to purchase a
> >Shotgun from Randy Weaver who was broke. But they wouldn't buy it unless
> >he cut the barrel down to an illegal size. He did and they arrested him.
>
> If memory serves, the barrel was short by the smallest bit below the
> legal limit. A quarter inch turns up in my surfing and then there are
> wrinkles like the barrel was legal but the overall weapon length
> became a 1/4'' too short (or did he "shorten it" by sanding the stock.
> Also whether the feds measured just the barrel and not to the bolt
> face and even then if they erroneously used the tip of the firing pin
> in the fired position as a reference.
>
> Remember they wanted to recruit him, not prosecute him, so they could
> use tricks that a court would have thrown out later. I'm not sure
> anyone has examined the actual weapon in question. Beside the
> entrapment, there might have been evidence fraud.
>
> Either which way, enough for a conviction; no effect on its pattern
> from a legal length. It's not like he turned it into the room clearer
> from gangster movie days. Weaver should have smelled a rat there. In
> fact, Weaver claimed he didn't do any shortening. He should have
> smelled a rat when they offered him $100 as is - sweetened to $5,000
> if he cut it down.
>
If you look at a exploded parts diagram, the entire tube is called the barrel.
However, in fact, the tube contains the chamber (3” long in a weapon that fires 3” shells) followed by the barrel.
If they measured down to the firing pin they measured wrong.
That would be like including the cylinder length in describing a revolvers barrel length.
They should have subtracted the maximum shell length from that number.
rbowman
Sep 1, 2017, 10:01:42 AM9/1/17
to
On 09/01/2017 01:39 AM, PaxPerPoten wrote:
> In the documentary..The FBI big shot that had been at Ruby Ridge stated
> that the Weavers were Very religious and were end time survivors. As for
> your statement that they were involved with the Aryan Nations...Nothing
> was said.
Going to an AN rally wasn't necessarily being involved with them. They
> In the documentary..The FBI big shot that had been at Ruby Ridge stated
> that the Weavers were Very religious and were end time survivors. As for
> your statement that they were involved with the Aryan Nations...Nothing
> was said.
were eclectic gatherings, sort of a neutral ground for for a variety of
people. afaik the Weavers were end times Christians of the Hal Lindsey
flavor not the Identity Butler pushed.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/ruby-ridge-part-one-suspicion/
I didn't read it all but what I did seemed to stick to the facts.
rbowman
Sep 1, 2017, 10:09:05 AM9/1/17
to
On 09/01/2017 07:00 AM, Winston Smith wrote:
> Every time we find some "right wing nuts" in trouble with the law we
> find the story waist deep in government provocateurs railroading all
> sorts of entrapment schemes. If they paid half the attention to antifa
> and the like ...
Nothing new there. In G.K. Chesterton's 'The Man Who Was Thursday'the
> Every time we find some "right wing nuts" in trouble with the law we
> find the story waist deep in government provocateurs railroading all
> sorts of entrapment schemes. If they paid half the attention to antifa
> and the like ...
core group members all are spies and provocateurs. Conrad's 'The Secret
Agent' is from the same period, 1907-8. They were written in response to
the first round of anarchists.
The old joke was the CPUSA would have collapsed after WWII without all
the dues-paying spies and provocateurs. COINTELPRO was the same thing as
are most of the 'terrorist plots' designed and managed by the Feebs.
goodsoldi...@invalid.junk
Sep 1, 2017, 8:18:12 PM9/1/17
to
On Fri, 1 Sep 2017 06:47:42 -0700 (PDT), CanopyCo <Junk...@aol.com>
wrote:
Not really.
The ATF procedure to measure the length of a barrel is to measure from
the closed bolt or breech face to the furthest end of the barrel or
permanently attached muzzle device. ATF considers a muzzle device that
has been permanently attached to be part of the barrel and therefore
counts towards the length.
This, by the way, is not some sort of arcane information only known by
the ancients but is clearly defined in ATF literature.
--
Cheers,
Schweik
wrote:
The ATF procedure to measure the length of a barrel is to measure from
the closed bolt or breech face to the furthest end of the barrel or
permanently attached muzzle device. ATF considers a muzzle device that
has been permanently attached to be part of the barrel and therefore
counts towards the length.
This, by the way, is not some sort of arcane information only known by
the ancients but is clearly defined in ATF literature.
--
Cheers,
Schweik
CanopyCo
Sep 2, 2017, 9:29:19 AM9/2/17
to
And yet when measuring a break open they will at times measure the entire tube instead of just the barrel.
That difference can make one guy’s measurement ok and the next cops measurement be 3” shorter.
PaxPerPoten
Sep 3, 2017, 3:48:50 AM9/3/17
to
off the barrel and give me a certified document to that fact. Now it did
cost me a campaign contribution, which I would have given anyway. Maybe
you big city folks don't have Sheriffs like that.
CanopyCo
Sep 3, 2017, 10:48:00 AM9/3/17
to
All it really did was include them in the crime if the next cop doesn’t like their numbers.
Sort of like when the Waco sheriff told the feds that he had already investigated the crime in question and found nothing.
Then the feds killed everyone that they could.
rbowman
Sep 3, 2017, 1:02:50 PM9/3/17
to
On 09/03/2017 01:48 AM, PaxPerPoten wrote:
> What I did was take the Shotgun to the local Sheriff and had them cut
> off the barrel and give me a certified document to that fact. Now it did
> cost me a campaign contribution, which I would have given anyway. Maybe
> you big city folks don't have Sheriffs like that.
https://www.mossberg.com/product/590-shockwave-6-shot-50659/
> What I did was take the Shotgun to the local Sheriff and had them cut
> off the barrel and give me a certified document to that fact. Now it did
> cost me a campaign contribution, which I would have given anyway. Maybe
> you big city folks don't have Sheriffs like that.
That may be cheaper than a campaign contribution and is legal even if
Mossberg is trolling the Feds.
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