Poetry Festival Set for New York
CHENNO
.c The Associated Press
By BETH J. HARPAZ
NEW YORK (AP) -- Edgar Allan Poe's ``The Raven'' will be read in a cemetery,
rappers will hold a war of words and cowboy poets will sing their songs.
There will be an open mike for poets seeking fame, and readings by those who've
found it: Pulitzer Prize winner Galway Kinnell, ``Iron John'' author Robert Bly
and U.S. Poet Laureate Robert Pinsky.
All the above -- and more -- will unfold at the People's Poetry Gathering,
April 9 to 11, in cafes, parks and auditoriums around Manhattan. The festival
will celebrate poetry from sonnets to hip-hop, from Montana to Brazil, from the
verse of 18th-century Scotsman Robert Burns to publication on the Internet.
The festival is being organized by City Lore, a group that preserves folk
culture, and Poets House, which sponsors readings and maintains a large poetry
library.
``Poetry is the ultimate populist art because everybody can do it,'' said City
Lore's director, Steve Zeitlin. ``We're trying to create a festival that
involves and includes literary poets, but also includes new inner city poets
and ethnic and folk traditions.''
Kinnell, one of the most prominent poets attending, will share a stage with,
among others, a Brazilian poet whose mimeographed works are hung from
clotheslines in his homeland for all to see.
``The whole flowering of poetry is a wonderful thing, and there are many more
petals than there used to be,'' said Kinnell, who will also do a reading of
Federico Garcia Lorca's works. ``Having everybody involved like this is kind of
exhilarating.''
Bly will be reading Pablo Neruda's ``Ode to My Socks'' and holding a workshop
on mythology and poetry.
``I took a tour of Germany recently and found that poetry never really got out
of the university there,'' Bly said. ``There are no poetry readings in Germany.
But here we've had a very healthy tradition of bringing poetry outside the
university and off the page.''
Bly will also discuss oral traditions with Kewulay Kamara, a Sierra Leone poet
who comes from a long line of West African oral historians. ``Their role in
society is quite different from the role of artists in Western society,'' Bly
said. ``These were ... the ambassadors, the masters of ceremonies, the people
who orchestrated coronations. The word is what brings people together -- not
money.''
Kamara's work is performed to music and partly improvised -- not unlike the rap
lyrics to be featured at the festival's hip-hop slam, a spoken-word contest in
which participants try to out-rhyme each other. Contestants get a minute or two
each, over several rounds, while a deejay plays recorded rhythms. Whoever gets
the most applause, wins.
``It goes so fast,'' said Isaac Collazzo, 22, of Brooklyn, who belongs to a
group called Braggin' Rites that is organizing the contest. ``This is very
confrontational. It's a battle, basically.''
Other slams at the festival include ``Head-to-head Haiku
using the Japanese verse form -- and a Puerto Rican decima contest, in which a
sentence is literally pulled out of a hat and a 10-line poem is composed ending
in that line.
Sherman Alexie, who wrote the screenplay for the acclaimed movie ``Smoke
Signals,'' will be featured in a ``Heavyweight Bout'' slam.
``I love poetry panels,'' said Alexie. ``Poets love to fight. Fiction writers
get on panels and they pat each other on the back, but poets fight.''
Hobo poet U. Utah Philips says his mission at the festival will be ``mooching
food and finding a safe warm place to sleep. I will then, with my cohorts,
spout and spew tramp ribaldries, raucous rusticana and fecal badinage.''
Philips has been performing and preserving railroad lore, union songs and other
Americana in the tradition of Woody Guthrie for over 30 years.
Several events feature cowboy poets, including Wally McRae, 63, a Montana
rancher. ``Everybody is supposed to write about where they come from,'' he
said. ``That's what it's about -- it's who we are and what we do.''
McRae added that most people have misconceptions about cowboys, but he tries to
live up to the image by wearing boots, a hat and a horsehair belt with a silver
buckle.
The festival also offers sessions on the blues, Asian writers and Yiddish
female poets, along with workshops on how to memorize a poem and on writing
renga, a Japanese poem composed while drinking sake.
``The Raven'' will be read in Marble Cemetery on the Lower East Side. There
will be a drinking tour of pubs frequented by the literati, and a
haggis-and-Scotch banquet at the Algonquin Hotel in honor of Robert Burns.
``Never before has there been an attempt like this to bring together such a
wide array of poets,'' said slam impresario Bob Holman, co-producer of the PBS
series ``The United States of Poetry.''
``To have a festival where you can taste poetries from around the world, and
find the music in poetry that you can sing to and dance to -- as opposed to
something you have to have explained to you -- is a milestone in the
renaissance of poetry.''
A sampling of poetry from the People's Poetry Gathering, April 9 to 11:
Montana rancher Wally McRae will read cowboy poems. Here's his ``Maggie'':
I taught my good dog, Maggie
To lay down when I commanded
I also taught her ``Set''
Whenever I demanded.
I'll teach her next to speak, I said
She struggled to comply
And when she learned to speak, she said:
``You twit. It's 'Sit' and 'Lie.'''
Pulitzer Prize-winning poet Galway Kinnell's ``Blackberry Eating'' was posted
in subway cars as part of a series called ``Poetry in Motion'':
I love to go out in late September
among fat, overripe, icy black blackberries
to eat blackberries for breakfast
the stalks very prickly, a penalty
they earn for knowing the black art
of blackberry-making; and as I stand among them
lifting the stalks to my mouth, the ripest berries
fall almost unbidden to my tongue,
as words sometimes do, certain peculiar words
like 'strengths' or 'squinched,'
many-lettered, one-syllabled lumps,
which I squeeze, squinch open, and splurge well
in the silent, startled, icy, black language
of blackberry-eating in late September.
Hobo troubadour U. Utah Phillips is a traveling singer and storyteller of
railroad lore, union songs and other Americana. Here's one of his favorites,
``Wobbly Doxology,'' from the Industrial Workers of the World:
Praise boss when morning work bells chime
Praise him for bits of overtime
Praise him whose wars we love to fight
Praise him, fat leech and parasite
Amen.
Kewulay Kamara, a native of Sierra Leone, will speak about oral traditions.
Here is an excerpt from his ``Longing'': .
the louder Your voice
the nearer Your call
the softer Your voice
with every step
my longing grows ...
as certain
as You are
yet I cannot
Can not
get enough
oh how hungry
how selfish
how frightened
how insecure
i am
will You stop
calling?
giving?
assuring? .
how can i stop
Longing
Isaac Collazo is a partner in Braggin' Rites, which is staging a hip-hop slam.
Here is an excerpt from a rap by Collazo: .
to form a masterpiece
scattered speech has to reach
the mass to teach.
Experiment with beats.
Lace my cleats to run
All over the track, in fact I'm not halfway done.
Inspect to see intricacies, in lines designed then fired.
This higher form of emcee will have you wired
By the bomb --
opium my rhyme form.
Lyric in drug --
Spirit is bugged.
It's my nature.
Chenno ôżô
Painting is silent poetry, and poetry painting that speaks. - Simonides
Brandon J. Freels
Is this some kind of threat?
>>>rappers will hold a war of words and cowboy poets will sing their songs.
Considering that the rap community will be "at war," a community that
started in the black culture, and that the cowboy poets will be free to sing
their songs, a group identified with white, I find this statement rather
racist.
>>>Galway Kinnell
Is this name supposed to mean something to me?
>>>``Iron John'' author Robert Bly
Robert Bly is a joke!
>>>U.S. Poet Laureate Robert Pinsky.
Fuck all "Poet Laureates"
Brandon J. Freels
---BJF
CHENNO wrote in message <19990401003126...@ng99.aol.com>...
>always a kind place here...thanks for your comments,they were very
educational
Brandon J. Freels
Translation: Those rappers (blacks), they are animals. All they can do is
fight among themselves, unlike the cowboy poets (whites) who are free to
sing their songs!
Besides the racist inclinations discovered above isn't there something wrong
with holding "a war of words?" Wasn't it Breton who said words should be
"making love?" Am I the only one who sees the "poetry slam" as the worst
thing that ever happened to the word "poetry?"
---BJF
Brandon J. Freels
I know you didn't write it. I didn't mean to come across as if I was
accusing "you" of anything. I think that article is a good example of how
people are trying to be "liberal," but end up (subliminally?) contradicting
themselves. I do not for a minute think that the article was written with an
intention of being racist, but on the other hand we have to see it for what
it says, right?
My interpretation of the article may not be correct, but it is an example of
something I have been working on lately and that is how people read things.
For me analyzing a text, like I have done, is impossible if we want to know
"the truth," just as analyzing a painting will get you nowhere for you will
never really know what the artist was thinking (throw away psychoanalysis?).
Possibly I have uncovered the absurdity of analysis? All I did was look for
racism and I found it, or did I? This is the problem with analysis that I am
struggling with.
---BJF
P.S. Where did you find the article?
CHENNO
CHENNO
songs.
---BJF
Chenno:
Brandon, I posted the article I did not write it,I thought some of you may be
near the area and like to attend,I would agree the article was not to my
liking, but, it is just that, an article, think of it what you will, I was just
passing it along,
CHENNO
P.S. Where did you find the article?
chenno wrote:
brandon, I am on AOl, and it is sent to my mailbox,anything with the words,
art, poetry etc...and I guess if your analyzing text, you will come up with
many things, and as unfortunate as it is, racism is everywhere it seems. It is
an interesting concept , may I ask why you are studying this? for personal or a
document your writing?
The art of a people is a true mirror to their minds. (Jawaharial Nehru)
Fascinan
>
>
>started in the black culture, and that the cowboy poets will be free to sing
>their songs, a group identified with white, I find this statement rather
>racist.
>
I think you're reading into it too much. First of all, as you state in a later
post I think, there are many complex layers of thought and language--myriad
colorations occuring in the unconsciou-- before we even say or write something.
So to say, "this statement insinuates this and that" is difficult to do
accurately.
I think this instance is moreso guilty of generalizations than racism. I mean,
rappers rap, and "gangsta" rap being very popular today is generally about
bravado, clout, personal power, mad skillz, etc., so a " war of words" doesn't
seem a stretch at all in this general context. Obviously, a rapper's cocktail
party, or poetry reading would draw raised brows from the rap community, knowm'
sayin? The statment says nothing about the skin color of rappers or cowboys;
it aslo mentions nothing about inclusivity/exclusivity.
The statement says nothing about cowboys being "free" to sing their songs.
Participating in a war of words is a freedom of expression just as much as
singing songs on the range is.
I do, however, think that the author could have been more careful in promoting
the event. Certainly, using a "war of words" re-inforces some of the
questionable psychological conceptions that you point out, and will only futher
socialize such conceptualization.
I would have gone with, "Rapper's debate"
"Rapfest" or "Rapper's creative exchange"
Fas
Dale Houstman
> Am I the only one who sees the "poetry slam" as the worst
> thing that ever happened to the word "poetry?"
You're not alone. I not only hate the phrase itself (striking me as
a pathetic attempt to "urbanize" and "cool up" poetry), but I am
appalled at the events: the ones I have been to are full of the most
atrocious overreaching "street" attitude injected here and there with
beat spews, pure posturing, and lame stabs at earnest frankness.
I think they are a truly horrible notion. This, and performance art
seem, for the most part, to be the last haven for those we used
to kindly refer to as "multi-talented."
DMH
Brandon J. Freels
>It is an interesting concept , may I ask why you are studying this? for
personal or a
>document your writing?
Brandon:
My interest in the concept of interpretations which I think are all
misinterpretations and only reflective of the interpreter comes from the
fact that I am an art history major. Hearing so many people analyze and
psychoanalyze art has ruined art for me. Critics of modern art only use
analysis to "dominate" the art. They are trying to understand something they
can never know: what determined the creation of the art (it should be noted
that most critics, including my professor, disregard what the artist has
said about the art as a "distraction" from what the art "really" means). I
find this sort of interpretation of art rather "accusational."
For example, through Chris Burden's photograph of himself electrocuting
himself, or another of him shooting himself, we can "accuse" him of somesort
of "suicidal tendency," or even narcissism (for self-representational
purposes), but what does that get me, saying that he was a "destructive"
individual? It may be true that he was, but it also may be false, and is
unprovable either way. There is more to his art than his so called
"destructiveness," and I could t turn the tables on the critic rather
easily. For example, I recently complained to a few at this site about an
article by Rudolf Kuenzli in "Surrealism and Women" which claimed Raoul
Ubac's Battle of the Amazons was misogynistic due to its fragmented female
bodies, but I would argue that it is Kuenzli who is the misogynist for using
the art to fulfill "his own" misogynistic fantasies. Am I making sense? Of
course I will never know if he "really is" a misogynist, but I feel that any
interpretation says more about the interpreter than it ever will about the
art.
---BJF
CHENNO
Hearing so many people analyze and
psychoanalyze art has ruined art for me.
Chenno wrote:
, Brandon, that remark rings out loud in many...I cannot begin to describe the
people I know that share this same feeling , it is impossible to know an
artist's thoughts through his or her work, only perception..and those
perceptions destroy the very meaning of the art.
The mind's ability to sew together slices of history and label or brand art or
an artist with their bullshit opinion makes me ill...in essence it steals the
art away from its original state.
I might add that the world is greatly confused in this day and age between art
and craft.(an opinion, like there is not enough of them already)
Angie
The world is a vampire."-Smashing Pumpkins, "Bullet With Butterfly Wings"
elag
Certainly, using a "war of words" re-inforces some of the
> questionable psychological conceptions that you point out, and will only
>futher socialize such conceptualization. I would have gone with,
"Rapper's
>debate" "Rapfest" or "Rapper's creative exchange"
So boujee of ya... THAT ain't got no street cred. Rapfest? Sounds
like something sponsored by KOOL cigarettes, f'korns'sake! Yeah, Rap's
been co-opted by MADison ave. but it doesn't have to become THIS
whitebred... even at a "poetry festival". "War of words" is an
appropriate name that comes directly from HipHop culture... none of the
rappers in MY nabe would argue with it. It's a pretty lighthearted
description, anyway. We must keep our senses of humor intact in order
to survive this thread.
Ignore the white culture,
Thighmaster "e"
Andrea Chen
Didn't make it through the screening process huh Dale? Maybe
next time.
Incidently I was amused by your recent claim that you did
poetry for a "living." Yet you neglected to mention that you did
"manual labor" to earn your bread. Incidently that puzzled me. Most
people have some sort of trade or 2, even in the construction
industry you usually stop being a "laborer" after a few years and learn
a skill. But you do some sort of vague thing known as "manual labor."
What is that? Mowing your mom's lawn once a month and taking out the
trash?
Brandon J. Freels
>Didn't make it through the screening process huh Dale? Maybe next time.
What sort of contribution to the discussion does Andrea Chen strive to
supply with her "attempted" insult of Dale?
---BJF
barrett john erickson
Brandon J. Freels <fre...@teleport.com> wrote in message
news:GB8N2.27524$A6.14...@news1.teleport.com...
"Andrea" never strives to _contribute_ to a discussion. "She" only seeks to
manipulate it for "her" benefit. Unfortunately, "she" fails to understand
how transparent and lifeless the tactics of misdirection on which "she"
depends are.
-- barrett
bar...@MagneticFields.org
http://www.MagneticFields.org/
"Everything tends to make us believe that there exists a certain point of
the mind at which life and death, the real and the imagined, past and
future, the communicable and the incommunicable, high and low, cease to be
perceived as contradictions."
...André Breton
Dale Houstman
> Didn't make it through the screening process huh Dale? Maybe
> next time.
Cheap shot with no intelligent content.
> Incidently I was amused by your recent claim that you did
> poetry for a "living." Yet you neglected to mention that you did
> "manual labor" to earn your bread.
You're an idiot; I originally posted it with the same apostrophes
about the word "living." Do you know what that means, or do you have your
little plastic head gears so far up your colonic cortex that you have
forgotten the simplest usages?
> Incidently that puzzled me. Most people have some sort of trade or
> 2, even in the construction industry you usually
> stop being a "laborer" after a few years and learn
> a skill. But you do some sort of vague thing known as "manual labor."
Again, you're an idiot. Manual = hands. I work with my hands: I have (in
order): cleaned dishes, done janitorial work, unloaded trucks, driven
trucks,
delivered sewing machines and cabinets, cleaned streets, cleaned hallways,
etc. This same problem occurded when you replied to my talk of "working"
in the Academic world; you seem incapable of comprehending that there are
many layers of labor in any given "milieu." I never said (and wouldn't) that
I
worked construction or had a bankable sill of the sort you appear to assign
to me here. In fact, after you laughingly accused me of boasting of my
accomplishments, I told you that I was puzzled since (as far as I know) I
have none. You are an idiot with a bad memory.
> What is that? Mowing your mom's lawn once a month and taking out the
> trash?
Question answered, idiot supremus.
I have worked at manual labor of various sorts all my adult life, and
nothing
you have said diminishes that, or makes it less true. You stay silent for so
long
(trying to get your overblown sense of worth out of your shit-pit no doubt)
and this is the best you can come up with?
Pathetic...
DMH
Dale Houstman
> Andrea Chen wrote
> >Didn't make it through the screening process huh Dale? Maybe next time.
> [and other irrelevant bullshit].
>
> What sort of contribution to the discussion does Andrea Chen strive to
> supply with her "attempted" insult of Dale?
This is what happens when your one "idea" is that people can be
manipulated. It reduces you to simple opportunistic assaults (too simple
to be considered tactical even) that, since people will respond,
self-validate
themselves as "tools of change." To Chen all people are pigeons in a
Skinner Box, and it just strikes her as amusing to watch them twitch.
How shocked Skinner might have been if he had found the pigeons
laughing at his feeble attempts to grasp existence with rubber gloves
and a pie chart. Andrea isn't as interesting, and at least B.F. had the
good taste to die. Hopefully she will achieve that state of social grace
sooner
than later.
DMH
"And That's Why Doves Laugh"
Dale Houstman
>
> "Andrea" never strives to _contribute_ to a discussion. "She" only seeks to
> manipulate it for "her" benefit. Unfortunately, "she" fails to understand
> how transparent and lifeless the tactics of misdirection on which "she"
> depends are.
>
They are too simplistic (and redolent of intellectual echolalia) to be
called "tactics." Rather more pathetically, I assume she no longer has
control over them herself; witness both her attempts to catch me
in some sort of lie about my "profession," when I have made absolutely
no claims of any achievements. She feels she is being clever, but
actually she appears to now be the one true victim of her endless
prattle about simple relfex-responses; she is seemingly trapped in
an endless moebius loop of aggressive tics, where she must find
what she figures are "kill points" to justify her aimless disregard
for any human activity above the level of a fidget. She appears to
have little to no comprehension of humans as anything more than
sounding boards for her inane and hollowed-out prodding.
Silly woman...
DMH
Jody Brewster
Brandon J. Freels
---BJF
Jody Brewster wrote in message <370557F9...@gate.net>...
Throckey
Dale Houstman wrote in message <7e3edb$pcl$1...@news-2.news.gte.net>...
Write for the details.
-B
CHENNO
Might as well dislike surrealism then...
chenno wrote>
Is there a point to this , Jodi?
Is this directed at my statement?
Dale Houstman
> I have nude pix of Andrea!!!
>
> Write for the details.
My first reaction (all too human) is "ewww!"
My second: why am I being told this?
My third: if Andrea is a human being, she undoubtedly never
wears clothes, but only a foil serape, to facilitate
info-flow between her colonic antennae. She has
grounded herself repeatedly by pissing down her
leg in a vain atrtempt to create a pool of facts.
DMH
"bzzzzzzapppp..." and then an eerie Chen-filled silence...
scot...@earthlink.net
<fre...@teleport.com> wrote:
> Am I the only one who sees the "poetry slam" as the worst
>thing that ever happened to the word "poetry?"
Brandon,
I don't get it.
Who cares how it is set up or advertised.
We are always surrounded by that kind of bull shit. People can break
out of it.
Lots of people together... lots of human energy... Lots of potential
for things to happen.
Why so pessimistic?
scot...@earthlink.net
<dale.h...@gte.net> wrote:
: the ones I have been to are full of the most
>atrocious overreaching "street" attitude injected here and there with
>beat spews, pure posturing, and lame stabs at earnest frankness.
and add drums, and colored streamers in the air, and street musicians,
and dancers .. lots of dancers, and groups of polys frolicking on the
ground, and radicals handing out incomprehensible pamphlets,
and evangelistic pastors in cheap suits loudly reading their book,
and children dancing to flue players from the Andes. and mimes, and
jugglers, and roving groups of actors some with painted faces devising
spontaneous dialog, and... and
I think it could be a wonderful party...
I think if the confusing, flawed, but purely human noise was loud
enough it could flow through my body and cleanse it. then I think I
would end up near the drummers and amidst the dancers.
Throckey
Dale Houstman wrote in message <7e5d2d$20g$1...@news-2.news.gte.net>...
>Throckey wrote:
>
>> I have nude pix of Andrea!!!
>>
>> Write for the details.
>
> My first reaction (all too human) is "ewww!"
> My second: why am I being told this?
> My third: if Andrea is a human being, she undoubtedly never
> wears clothes, but only a foil serape, to facilitate
> info-flow between her colonic antennae. She has
> grounded herself repeatedly by pissing down her
> leg in a vain atrtempt to create a pool of facts.
>
me attempt to answer your question in a surrealistic fashion,
since I don't want to be crossposting inappropriately.
You are being told this because Andrea has crafted an
elaborate meta-troll so sophiticated, that not even she
understands it's effects. I believe she is an armadillo with
two broad slots in her back for toasting bread. Every so
often I am compelled to press her head down and listen
as the smell of burning shit permeates the room. I
suppose this is due to the animosity from our long
running disagreement over whether a semiotic model
of meme comprehension could be constructed using
carrots.
So ultimately, I don't know why you are being told this.
I can only guess that we are all pawns to some unseen
master.
Anyway, what kind of poetry do racists write? And
why would they meet in New York, as opposed to
Northern Idaho or some other place more reknowned
for artistic expression?
-B
Brandon J. Freels
>Who cares how it is set up or advertised. We are always surrounded by that
kind of >bull shit. People can break out of it. Lots of people together...
lots of human energy... >Lots of potential for things to happen. Why so
pessimistic?
Brandon:
I understand what you are saying, but the actuality of the poetry slam is
negative. Even if the outcome is meant to be positive it is usually far from
it. Most of the slams I've been to have been a bundle of mixed emotions. The
regulars (some of my friends are regulars) all seem to enjoy it, but there
is always some negativity that is attached. It has something to do with egos
and competition. If a "Poetry Festival" really filled its potential "for
things to happen" and was an "optimistic" event then I would be in full
favor of it. Unfortunately most "poets" aren't like that, and getting them
all to together to "have a war of words" is like getting a group of
delinquents to run a McDonald's. Cheap food, but bad food.
Brandon J. Freels
>and add drums, and colored streamers in the air, and street musicians, and
dancers
Brandon:
I would love to go to a festival like this, but unfortunately that type of
festival has nothing to do with poetry slams. Poetry slams are a way to
segregate poets rather than unify them. A festival like you have described,
built on public communication, does the opposite of the poetry slam.
Andrea Chen
> I am troubled by the image of Andrea in a foil serape, but let
> me attempt to answer your question in a surrealistic fashion,
> since I don't want to be crossposting inappropriately.
Uh oh. You have ventured into the most oddest of quagmires which is to
attempt to post surrealistically to alt.surrealism Be warned it's a
trap!
They shall strive to suck you in with statements like this is about the
liberation of the imagination. But wait, there's a catch! They define
the liberated imagination. Dancing peruvian temple prietesses (Dale's
favorite) are appropiate, aliens are not. Dali is definitely anti
imagination. In my brief perusal of this group (6 months or so), I've
seen literally dozens appear, sometimes struggle to stay through the
flamewars, but in the end be vanquished by the 3 stooges (Dale, Brandon
and Barrett) for improper use of the imagination and the practice of non
surrealism.
To get it right you need a fifties middle brow intellect with a liberal
tint. It's amazing to hear these people talk about Freud (they're
against him) and Marx (they were for him); truly surrealist though not
in the sense they mean (which I can't quite figure out since I've seen
_no_ imaginations liberated by their "surrealist project.")
I was hoping Gilbert might be able to throw some light on this since he
might get many of the same sort in his freshman classes.
Anyway be careful. You may find that what you thought was surrealist
doesn't meet the stringent, unspoken requirements of this group.
Brandon J. Freels
>But wait, there's a catch! They define the liberated imagination. Dancing
peruvian >temple prietesses (Dale's favorite) are appropiate, aliens are
not.
Brandon:
I take it that was my call to action! The liberation of the imagination can
only be achieved when one has broken from artificial obligations, such as
religion, state, and family.
>Dali is definitely anti imagination.
Brandon.
Of course he is. He painted right out of a psychology textbook. He might as
well have painted by number.
>In my brief perusal of this group (6 months or so), I've seen literally
dozens appear, >sometimes struggle to stay through the flamewars, but in the
end be vanquished by >the 3 stooges (Dale, Brandon and Barrett) for improper
use of the imagination and >the practice of non surrealism.
Brandon:
"Call the police!" shouts Andrea Chen, "the surrealists have taken over
alt.surrealism, and they kicked me out!" Boo hoo! Poor Andrea!
>It's amazing to hear these people talk about Freud (they're against him)
and Marx
>(they were for him); truly surrealist though not in the sense they mean
(which I can't >quite figure out since I've seen _no_ imaginations liberated
by their "surrealist >project.")
Brandon:
I'm not for or against Marx or Freud. Stop lying!
> Anyway be careful. You may find that what you thought was surrealist
doesn't meet >the stringent, unspoken requirements of this group.
Brandon:
Yes, that is often the case, but the "requirements" can be found in almost
any book at a local library with the word "surrealism" on it. It does not
simply mean "weird pictures." Okay?
Brandon J. Freels
CHENNO
Who cares how it is set up or advertised.
We are always surrounded by that kind of bull shit. People can break
out of it.
Lots of people together... lots of human energy... Lots of potential
for things to happen.
Why so pessimistic?
Chenno wrote
, It is all how you think of it...You will find wrong in everything if you look
for it....and you will find good in everything if you look for it as well,
Great attitude scott, refreshing spirit...nice to see....
Fascinan
>
>Brandon.
>Of course he is. He painted right out of a psychology textbook. He might as
>well have painted by number.
Yea, Giant Blue Elephants with stickling legs, Tiger's being swallowed by
fish, melting clocks and all are found on page 23 in the DSMIV; I heard all of
his painting were connect the dots too.
Dali was obviously quite captured by the Freudian paradigm, but to say that
he's anti-imagination? huh?
Are you suggesting that imagination has to be free of certain ideology? If so,
what ideology, and how does one appoint tenets of the imagination? Breton's?
Bill Bixby's? The Schmoo?
I think "weird pictures" illustrate an imaginative mind at work. Anyone can
draw a box, but fantastical images, stirrings of the unconscious (hence the
outdated Freudian usage in Dali), futuristic themes, nightmare landscapes--it's
all good stuff brother.
Pyrrhonist aspersions are really lacking in imagination. They are the cutting
and pasting of those whose rational/analytical minds take pride in appointing
instead of creating themselves.
Brandon J. Freels
>Yea, Giant Blue Elephants with stickling legs, Tiger's being swallowed by
fish, >melting clocks and all are found on page 23 in the DSMIV; I heard all
of his painting >were connect the dots too.
Brandon:
Point well taken. I can be too hard on Dali at times. But his piece about
Narcissus (I forgot the exact title) shows a hand holding an egg with a
Narcissus flower coming out of it, mirrored by another hand holding a rock
(I believe) next to a pool of water. He has simply illustrated the symbols
(mirror, egg, double) that go along with Narcissism, all of which were well
known at the time of the painting. The egg, used by Freud, was a metaphor
for Narcissism's self-sufficiency. So what did Dali do? He painted an egg.
No imagination in that. Just an illustration of what Frued said. The mirror
and the double, Dali did the same with those!
>Are you suggesting that imagination has to be free of certain ideology? If
so, what >ideology, and how does one appoint tenets of the imagination?
Breton's? Bill >Bixby's? The Schmoo?
Brandon:
This is a good question. The imagination should be free of ideologies, and
is only free when its shackles are removed (we've been through this before).
Does Breton supply shackles by pointing out shackles? I don't think so.
>I think "weird pictures" illustrate an imaginative mind at work. Anyone
can draw a box, >but fantastical images, stirrings of the unconscious (hence
the outdated Freudian >usage in Dali), futuristic themes, nightmare
landscapes--it's all good stuff brother.
Brandon:
Yes, "weird pictures" do illustrate an imaginative mind at work (and I agree
it is all good stuff), but that is not "Surrealism" in its complete sphere.
We could also say that drawing a box also uses some imagination couldn't we?
And isn't saying that only "some" people can create "weird" images a bit
elitist? I think the stranger the pictures are the better chance that the
artist has subverted one of society's shackles, but maybe not all of
society's shackles. For example, science fiction is still shackled by a
reason know as "science." Mysticism is still shackled by a reason known as
"god." I believe a true Surrealism is when "all" these shackles, even for a
brief moment, have been desolved.
Asbestos Dust
<fre...@teleport.com> wrote:
>Andrea Chen wrote
(...a bunch of stuff...) And then Brandon replied with:
>
>Brandon:
(...a bunch of other stuff...)
My goodness, Brandon! What a stuffy little prick you are.
I can see you now, dressed in black, a fruity little beret cocked like
a diseased cow turd over one eye while you hold your two-foot
cigarette holder at just exactly such an angle as to communicate your
curdling distain of the bleating masses around you. Cuddled deep in
the warmth of your smarmy syncophants while you dramatically pose and
think Deep Thoughts, you have lost even the capacity to be embarrassed
at the stick-figure caracature of an artisté that you've become.
You wouldn't know surrealism if it smacked you in the ass with a bull
fiddle. If you did, your finely tuned surrealistic hyper-sensitivity
to the nature of the world around you would lead you to the
inescapable conclusion that wastes of space such as yourself should be
hearded into holding pens in order to be fed to something useful.
Other than that, you seem nice enough, although that web page you
referenced is probably the most stultifying lump of ripened horseshit
I've run across in some time. Gilbert would quite like it -- I
suspect he could hold forth on it ad infinitum, as it has the virtue
of being liberally studded with references to obscure literary works
and indigestible little clots of French (a bastard language by any
measure). I invite him to peruse it at his leisure.
http://www-e815.fnal.gov/~romosan/surrealism.html
(Hi, Andrea! Where do you find dickwads like this, anyhow? You using
a salt lick to bring them in? That's illegal, you know. The Fish and
Game people are gonna whack your pee-pee if they catch you at it...)
AD
======================================================
"Reality is merely an illusion,
albeit a very persistent one."
- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
======================================================
Asbestos Dust
wrote:
>Anyway, what kind of poetry do racists write?
Nowadays it's usually Rap, at least mostly.
>And
>why would they meet in New York, as opposed to
>Northern Idaho or some other place more reknowned
>for artistic expression?
Well, NYC is the world headquarters. Besides, most of them would feel
uncomfortable in Northern Idaho, having never been out of the 'hood.
Oh, there are exceptions, there always are -- Farrakan, Jackson,
Sharpton, etc. But not usually. Them racists are a tricky bunch,
though. They could show up about anywhere.
AD
Oversoul
wrote:
>You're welcome.
>---BJF
The 'bot known as Braindead J. Frills has been terminated. Please ignore
any further postings from this idiot.
Thankyou.
- Oversoul
Oversoul
> Pathetic...
Exactly how I would describe the meandering mish-mash pouring from
the dirty little mouths of Braindead and Dale.
Pathetic, indeed.
- Oversoul
Oversoul
>Anyway, what kind of poetry do racists write?
"Fuck all "Poet Laureates"
by
"Brandon J. Freels" <fre...@teleport.com>
HTH.
- Oversoul
g.v.w. iv
Indeed.
>
>- Oversoul
>
>
gilbert vanburen wilkes iv
http://eserver.org/home/wilkes
<a href="http://www.2600.com/mindex.html">Free Kevin</a>
Revolutions are always verbose.
Leon Trotsky
Brandon J. Freels
Asbestos Dust
g.v.w. iv
Oversoul
Are there more? Come on Chen, stick to one name. Stop trying to make it look
like people agree with you.
Besides, I thought you were killed when you draw string got caught a school
bus?
---BJF
Dale Houstman
Throckey wrote:
> You are being told this because Andrea has crafted an
> elaborate meta-troll so sophiticated, that not even she
> understands it's effects.
Precisely: she is the ugly dolphin!
> I believe she is an armadillo with two broad slots in
> her back for toasting bread.
By now (in reductive reflex) she has upgraded to four slots
and a bagel warmer, but has forgotten to include a plug.
> So ultimately, I don't know why you are being told this.
> I can only guess that we are all pawns to some unseen
> master.
She wished! Andrea doesn't yet realize that people have lives
outside her comprehension of their inadequacies, and that when
they turn off their computers she is as nothing. She has already
prove to me (twice) that she cannot understand simple statements
concerning work.
> Anyway, what kind of poetry do racists write?
We might ask T S Eliot and Pound, but it wouldn't help. I suppose
there are as many different sorts of racists as there are epidemiologists;
some probably write that sub-literate ooze you can find in the common
white supremacist website ("hate" rhymes with "bait"). but others
are undoubtedly smart enough to realize they should repress the
balder manifestations of their philosophy. Others feel guilty. Some
are genuine omnivores, and the non-particularity of their hatred
makes them seem distant but not easily "outed" as racists.
And on and on and on...
>why would they meet in New York, as opposed to Northern Idaho
>or some other place more reknowned for artistic expression?
Got me... Not my idea.
DMH
Dale Houstman
> Exactly how I would describe the meandering mish-mash pouring from
> the dirty little mouths of Braindead and Dale.
>
> Pathetic, indeed.
>
Pathetic...
DMH
Dale Houstman
Andrea Chen,
Your irrelevancy is showing at length...
DMH
Dale Houstman
> Indeed.
>
Pathetic...
DMH
Asbestos Dust
<fre...@teleport.com> wrote:
>How many names does Andrea Chen really have?
Thirty-five. No, sorry, thirty-six. I gotta get this index sorted
out.
>Asbestos Dust
Uh, oh. Got me.
>g.v.w. iv
>Oversoul
Don't know about these two. As the personalities emerge, they tend to
erase their own tracks behind them. The only reason I know about
Asbestos Dust is that I got a copy of the book-in sheet from that
police holding tank when I bailed myself out. I still don't know what
the shithead was doing to get us chucked into jail, much less in
Singapore, although the charges seem to have something to do with lewd
and lacivious behavior at a circus.
>Are there more? Come on Chen, stick to one name. Stop trying to make it look
>like people agree with you.
Hey, they're separate personalities. In some cities (notably
Chicago), they can all vote individually.
>Besides, I thought you were killed when you draw string got caught a school
>bus?
Nope, I think you're thinking about that kid that used to give hummers
to the entire eighth-grade class so they wouldn't take his lunch
money. And it didn't kill him, just crippled him up some. It was a
tragedy, but -- odd, I can't remember his name -- everyone used to
call him "BJ" (for obvious reasons). and his last name was ---- oh,
shit, I can't remember. Started with an "F," though. I remember,
because the kids spray painted his locker with:
>---BJF
Wonder what ever happened to the poor little peckerwart? After the
drawstring thing, he just kinda disappeared. Probably still a loser
on his knees, wherever he is.
AD aka whoever emerges next
g.v.w. iv
From: Andrea Chen <fallin...@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.surrealism,rec.arts.prose
Date: Friday, April 02, 1999 3:47 AM
Subject: Re: Racist Poetry Festival Set for New York
>Dale Houstman gibbered and squeaked:
>>
>> "Brandon J. Freels" wrote:
>>
>> > Am I the only one who sees the "poetry slam" as the worst
>> > thing that ever happened to the word "poetry?"
Apparently not, Brain-dead McFreely. Apparently a human slope jar calling
itself Dale Houstman concurs with your limp-witted mischaracterization. He
agrees with you. He identifies with you. In you, Brian, little Dale Houstman
discovers a kindred spirit. Love is in the air.
Dale prattles, editorializing wildly. Shall we listen in? Indeed we shall.
>>
>> You're not alone. I not only hate the phrase itself (striking me as
Indeed, Freely. You are not alone. Ignorance and stupidity plague all of
Usenet.
>> a pathetic attempt to "urbanize" and "cool up" poetry), but I am
Oh, yes. i heartily agree. God forbid poetry be cool or urban.
>> appalled at the events: the ones I have been to are full of the most
>> atrocious overreaching "street" attitude injected here and there with
>> beat spews, pure posturing, and lame stabs at earnest frankness.
Dear God, Dale. How did you survive the ordeal with your virtue intact,
gentle Dale, delicate Dale, little Doily-Dale?
Clearly the event you describe left you scarred, little Dale. You lose
control of your adjectives. E.g. earnest frankness? Frank earnestness? Can
one be dishonestly frank? Or earnestly disingenuous? You also describe poets
posturing. Posturing poets. Poets posturing impurely. Are you sure that one
or two of them didn't posture impurely? When you weren't looking? Or behind
your back? Did they inject attitude? Did you overreach atrociously? Did they
stab, however lamely? Did they do it here and there as well? Your adjectives
suggest more orgy than oratory, Doily-Dale. Posturing. Overreaching.
Spewing. Stabbing. Injecting. What odd sexual imagery. You need a date,
Doily. You need one real bad.
>> I think they are a truly horrible notion. This, and performance art
You think ''they are a truly horrible notion?'' Did they become notional?
Did they become notion? Did their excesses morph their flesh into concept?
Or do you think poetry slams themselves are horrible notions?
>> seem, for the most part, to be the last haven for those we used
>> to kindly refer to as "multi-talented."
Too true, you multi-talented moron macaque.
>>
>
>
> Didn't make it through the screening process huh Dale? Maybe
>next time.
Indeed.
>
> Incidently I was amused by your recent claim that you did
>poetry for a "living." Yet you neglected to mention that you did
How can one do poetry for a living?
>"manual labor" to earn your bread. Incidently that puzzled me. Most
>people have some sort of trade or 2, even in the construction
>industry you usually stop being a "laborer" after a few years and learn
>a skill. But you do some sort of vague thing known as "manual labor."
>What is that? Mowing your mom's lawn once a month and taking out the
>trash?
Dale Houstman
>Apparently not, Brain-dead McFreely.
Oh look! A pun! Not a very good one, but...
>Apparently a human slope jar calling itself Dale Houstman
>concurs with your limp-witted mischaracterization.
I have been to poetry slams, and formed an opinion of my own that happens to
concur with Brain-Dead's. I also agree that this subject appears to have
brought the worst out in you. Did mother stop loving you simply because
she found you eating your own shit?
> He identifies with you. In you, Brian, little Dale Houstman
> discovers a kindred spirit. Love is in the air.
Who knows? First of all: what is wrong with love of any sort? You
seem to have affection issues, that drive you to disparage others who
agree with one another. Are you feeling left out, unloved? Is the
fact that you appear to agree with some others a sign that you are
buggering them on weekends? Or does that rather limp schematic
of yours only work badly in one direction?
> Ignorance and stupidity plague all of Usenet.
And surely you are the bubo which constitutes its early sign?
Your personalized over-reaction to a simple expression of dislike (and
a dislike gathered toward an institution not an individual) says much more
about your lack than mine or Brandon's.
Again: since you repeat Andrea's idiocy; I placed apostrophes about
the word "living" because it was ironic. Your inability to grasp this rather
fundamental usage places you in the Andrea Hall of Aggressive Density.
DMH
g.v.w. iv
From: Andrea Chen <fallin...@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.surrealism,rec.arts.prose,alt.pouting.sandwich
Date: Saturday, April 03, 1999 12:45 PM
Subject: Re: Racist Poetry Festival Set for New York
>>
>> I am troubled by the image of Andrea in a foil serape, but let
>> me attempt to answer your question in a surrealistic fashion,
>> since I don't want to be crossposting inappropriately.
>
>
> Uh oh. You have ventured into the most oddest of quagmires which is to
>attempt to post surrealistically to alt.surrealism Be warned it's a
>trap!
>
> They shall strive to suck you in with statements like this is about the
>liberation of the imagination. But wait, there's a catch! They define
>the liberated imagination.
Liberated in what sense?
Surrealism is dead-letter, interesting only as an historical artifact. One
might as well call oneself a cubist or a DADAist or a post impressionist.
One would be equally relevant.
> To get it right you need a fifties middle brow intellect with a liberal
>tint. It's amazing to hear these people talk about Freud (they're
>against him) and Marx (they were for him); truly surrealist though not
>in the sense they mean (which I can't quite figure out since I've seen
>_no_ imaginations liberated by their "surrealist project.")
Well, duh. They speak the name of Marx, but do these three ever read any
Marx?
Do they understand the notion of a dialectical progression? E.g. in the late
seventies and early eighties human factors engineers celebrated the computer
desktop (first realized for consumers in Apple's ill-fated LISA) as a great
leap forward in organizing personal information spaces. Now, some two
decades later, the research literature abounds with critiques of desktop
GUIs and attempts to overthrow them in favor of other design regimes.
The user community matured. Empowered, they grew more sophisticated. Their
needs changed. What once seemed liberating and revolutionary now seems
constraining and reactionary. So too in cultural production. Artists and
authors explore aesthetic possibility, address issues, confront questions.
Critical communities respond. Audiences mature. The conversation moves on.
What once seemed innovative and alive suddenly seems stilted, mannered,
irrelevant.
Surrealism is interesting. No one would argue otherwise. But only in the
same sense that an abstract expressionist canvas is interesting. Because a
critical community (other artists, critics, connoisseurs, collectors,
curators etc.) responded favorably, it entered the historical record as an
aesthetic accomplishment. At a particular moment, in a particular community,
it said something important and someone heard it. But now it hangs in a
museum.
Surrealism liberates nothing. The world that produced it is gone.
Dale Houstman
> Surrealism is dead-letter, interesting only as an historical artifact. One
> might as well call oneself a cubist or a DADAist or a post impressionist.
> One would be equally relevant.
Massively incorrect and demonstrably so. But if it is true for you,
why waste your time on it? Are you hoping to convert those who have
strayed so badly into this anachronism? If so your method is ill-chosen.
Is it because a surrealist slapped you upside the head one day and you
cannot forgive them? If so, let us help. Another slap perhaps? Are
you "too cool to fool" and have seen through every hair-brained scheme
of the 20th century, right down to the bone, and having nothing to replace
any of it with, are stuck doing that most pathetic thing: attacking ideas
you consider dead? Are you a necrophilial dominatrix?
> > To get it right you need a fifties middle brow intellect with a liberal
> >tint.
Ignorant statement with no substance to its pop-cultural banality.
I rather much aggravate my "liberal" friends, who see my continuing
railing against privelege as old-hat as you see surrealism. I am quite
aware of the world "as is" and have left behind the lounge-mind I
never had so you could pick it up and use it as a lame reference
to bolster your evangelic verve.
> It's amazing to hear these people talk about Freud (they're
> >against him) and Marx (they were for him);
Simplification of a complex relationship in both cases, although one
which serves your limited argument.
> since I've seen >_no_ imaginations liberated by their "surrealist project.")
The blind cannot see; and we are not christs, so we have no interest
in "converting" your sight, as you do. How do you "see" the imagination
of others, especially those known through Usernet? This is a skill I
imagine would keep you busy enough so you would feel no need to
attack an idea you insist is already dead. If so, you can leave the graveyard
now, and we can get back to our party.
> Well, duh. They speak the name of Marx, but do these three ever read any
> Marx?
Yes. So?
> What once seemed innovative and alive suddenly seems stilted, mannered,
> irrelevant.
This would be true if surrealism was a mere collection of aesthetic and
time-bound political beliefs, or if it were an art movement at all (although
I disagree with your idea that progress has faded the colors of human
vision from the past. This may be true for those who are endlessly in
line for the next sensation, but it applies to none of my acquaintences
who see no "progress" in the movement from Da Vinci to Duchamp,
only a division of one labor over the centuries.) There is a reason however
that Breton spoke of surrealism in scientific rather than aesthetic terms:
surrealism is meant to be a constant re-evaluation of the senses, including
the imagination. It also desires to involve itself in human struggles. If
this strikes you as "old fashioned" then I suggest you get off the dead
broad and find your own personal living mistake. You have declared it:
we are ignorant, we are out-dated, and we are fooling ourselves. Leave!
We are the dead. Save yourself...
>
> Surrealism is interesting. No one would argue otherwise.
Of course they would.
> But only in the same sense that an abstract expressionist
> canvas is interesting.
This is a flawed analogy: surrealism is not an aethestic program, or a
set of design principles, or even a square block of warehouses in NYC.
Whatever you think of surrealism, the variety and quantity of its
texts (either theoretical, political, poetic, humorous) belies this easy
but corrupt parallel. Surrealism (quite apart from its merits) is
demonstrably not an art movement; it includes the arts in its considerations,
and has attracted many artists to its greater or lesser portions, but
it has never been something that can be hung in a museum, no matter how
often you may proclaim this.
>Because a critical community (other artists, critics, connoisseurs,
collectors, >curators etc.) responded favorably, it entered the
historical record as an >aesthetic accomplishment.
And this shows the worth of those critics and those collectors and those
curators; they got it wrong, and felt they had captured it. You are replaying
their old-fashioned misunderstanding. Might you be ready to move on
also?
> But now it hangs in a museum.
No, its products hang in museums, just as old lab equipment hangs in
scientific museums; the ideas of physical science they helped to uncover
or clarify are living components of present-day knowledge.
> Surrealism liberates nothing. The world that produced it is gone.
>
Then please go with it, before the last bus is gone. I do not see
what is restraining you. You are almost missionarial in your blind
need to convert. To what? Tell me. It may add something to
my own experience, which you deny exists.
DMH
CHENNO
Chenno ô¿ô
g.v.w. iv
From: Dale Houstman <dale.h...@gte.net>
Newsgroups: alt.surrealism,rec.arts.prose
Date: Monday, April 05, 1999 12:49 AM
Subject: Re: Racist Poetry Festival Set for New York
>"g.v.w. iv" wrote:
>
>> Surrealism is dead-letter, interesting only as an historical artifact.
One
>> might as well call oneself a cubist or a DADAist or a post impressionist.
>> One would be equally relevant.
>
> Massively incorrect and demonstrably so. But if it is true for you,
Not simply incorrect, but massively incorrect. And demonstrably so. All
right, Dale. Demonstrate it.
>why waste your time on it? Are you hoping to convert those who have
i cannot speak for Ms. Chen. But as for me, i waste my time on this project
because i want to provoke you. Because i want you to defend your mistaken
notion of Surrealism.
Because i have time to kill.
>strayed so badly into this anachronism? If so your method is ill-chosen.
Not at all. You may remain in your anachronistic fantasy.
>Is it because a surrealist slapped you upside the head one day and you
>cannot forgive them? If so, let us help. Another slap perhaps? Are
>you "too cool to fool" and have seen through every hair-brained scheme
>of the 20th century, right down to the bone, and having nothing to replace
>any of it with, are stuck doing that most pathetic thing: attacking ideas
>you consider dead? Are you a necrophilial dominatrix?
If she is then i want to meet her. In person.
>
>> > To get it right you need a fifties middle brow intellect with a liberal
>> >tint.
>
> Ignorant statement with no substance to its pop-cultural banality.
So i suppose it has substance otherwise since its lack of substance applies
only to ''its pop-cultural banality?'' Be careful with your qualifiers,
Dale.
>I rather much aggravate my "liberal" friends, who see my continuing
>railing against privelege as old-hat as you see surrealism. I am quite
>aware of the world "as is" and have left behind the lounge-mind I
>never had so you could pick it up and use it as a lame reference
>to bolster your evangelic verve.
Evangelist, Dale. Evangelist verve. Or you could write evangalistic verve,
but why bother? Evanglist captures the same meaning. Does that last sentence
above make sense to you? Are you sure when you write ''Surrealism'' you
don't mean aphasia?
>
>> It's amazing to hear these people talk about Freud (they're
>> >against him) and Marx (they were for him);
>
> Simplification of a complex relationship in both cases, although one
>which serves your limited argument.
Demonstrate your claim. How did she oversimplify?
>
>> since I've seen >_no_ imaginations liberated by their "surrealist
project.")
>
> The blind cannot see; and we are not christs, so we have no interest
>in "converting" your sight, as you do. How do you "see" the imagination
i have no interest in ''converting [my] sight'' [sic] either, bright boy.
Apparently you also lack the discursive resources to make a case for your
beliefs. How sad for you.
>of others, especially those known through Usernet? This is a skill I
>imagine would keep you busy enough so you would feel no need to
>attack an idea you insist is already dead. If so, you can leave the
graveyard
>now, and we can get back to our party.
i intend to dance on your graves a little longer, thank you.
>
>> Well, duh. They speak the name of Marx, but do these three ever read any
>> Marx?
>
> Yes. So?
i merely wanted to point out that you used Marx's name like it had magical
efficacy even though you never actually read any Marx. Thank you for
confirming my claim.
>
>> What once seemed innovative and alive suddenly seems stilted, mannered,
>> irrelevant.
>
> This would be true if surrealism was a mere collection of aesthetic and
>time-bound political beliefs, or if it were an art movement at all
(although
Then it is true.
>I disagree with your idea that progress has faded the colors of human
>vision from the past. This may be true for those who are endlessly in
Faded the colors of human vision, metaphor boy? Does human vision have
color? No. We perceive color.
>line for the next sensation, but it applies to none of my acquaintences
>who see no "progress" in the movement from Da Vinci to Duchamp,
>only a division of one labor over the centuries.) There is a reason however
A division of one labor over the centuries? Who are your acquaintances? Are
they as inarticulate as you?
>that Breton spoke of surrealism in scientific rather than aesthetic terms:
>surrealism is meant to be a constant re-evaluation of the senses, including
You provide a remarkably impoverished account of Surrealism.
Breton had far more to say than merely that. You cannot recover Breton's
project by voiding it of all positive content.
Go on. Finish what you failed to begin. Provide a coherent account of
Surrealism. Do so and i will go my way.
>the imagination. It also desires to involve itself in human struggles. If
Yet it doesn't. Name one contemporary ''Surrealist'' or Surrealist movement
involved in any human struggle, anywhere, in any meaningful way, such that
anyone would recognize it as such.
>this strikes you as "old fashioned" then I suggest you get off the dead
>broad and find your own personal living mistake. You have declared it:
You suggest what? Do you use solvents without proper ventilation?
>we are ignorant, we are out-dated, and we are fooling ourselves. Leave!
>We are the dead. Save yourself...
Well, yeah. Dead in the sense of boring. But i intend to provoke you until i
find something else to distract me.
i hope you don't mind.
>
>>
>> Surrealism is interesting. No one would argue otherwise.
>
> Of course they would.
On what grounds? Does Surrealism bore you?
>
>> But only in the same sense that an abstract expressionist
>> canvas is interesting.
>
> This is a flawed analogy: surrealism is not an aethestic program, or a
Flawed how? Please do not make claims without providing warrant.
>set of design principles, or even a square block of warehouses in NYC.
It was an aesthetic program, yes.
>Whatever you think of surrealism, the variety and quantity of its
>texts (either theoretical, political, poetic, humorous) belies this easy
>but corrupt parallel. Surrealism (quite apart from its merits) is
An easy parallel because it's true. Cite a few of these texts for me.
>demonstrably not an art movement; it includes the arts in its
considerations,
Demonstrably, Dale? Apparently you like the word ''demonstrable.'' Good.
Then ''demonstrate'' your claim.
Prove to me that Surrealism was not an ''art movement.''
>and has attracted many artists to its greater or lesser portions, but
>it has never been something that can be hung in a museum, no matter how
>often you may proclaim this.
You may redefine the term Surrealism if you wish. i have no problem with
that. But when you reduce the term to some vague descriptor that you can use
to mean whatever you want it to mean, you empty the term of its positive
meaning, its social, historical, philosophical, and aesthetic importance.
>
>>Because a critical community (other artists, critics, connoisseurs,
>collectors, >curators etc.) responded favorably, it entered the
>historical record as an >aesthetic accomplishment.
>
> And this shows the worth of those critics and those collectors and those
>curators; they got it wrong, and felt they had captured it. You are
replaying
>their old-fashioned misunderstanding. Might you be ready to move on
>also?
Paranoid, are you? Dale is right, the rest of the world is wrong.
What did they misunderstand, Dale? What do you know that they did not? What
privileged knowledge of the world do you enjoy that no one else can access?
>
>> But now it hangs in a museum.
>
> No, its products hang in museums, just as old lab equipment hangs in
>scientific museums; the ideas of physical science they helped to uncover
>or clarify are living components of present-day knowledge.
You compare Surrealism to the social and material practice of science?
Pursue the analogy, Dale. Bodies of theory and general hypotheses about the
world come and go. Generally, when a theoretical model can explain or
predict the phenomena of the world more precisely or more simply than
another, it wins. Instance: Copernican astronomy as opposed to the Ptolemaic
system.
Surrealism is like the Ptolemaic system. It worked for a time. But now its
time is over.
>
>> Surrealism liberates nothing. The world that produced it is gone.
>>
>
> Then please go with it, before the last bus is gone. I do not see
>what is restraining you. You are almost missionarial in your blind
''Missionarial?'' Try missionary, literacy boy.
>need to convert. To what? Tell me. It may add something to
i want to convert you to literacy, you imbecile. How can you champion a
cause if you can't write? Let me help you.
>my own experience, which you deny exists.
i do not deny that you experience the world, Doilie Houstman. i only deny
that you can articulate that experience in any meaningful way.
Thank you for demonstrating the truth of my claim.
>
>DMH
>
>
i like you, by the way. Please don't take any of this personally. i just do
this to impress Ms. Chen.
g.v.w. iv
From: Dale Houstman <dale.h...@gte.net>
Newsgroups: alt.surrealism,rec.arts.prose
Date: Sunday, April 04, 1999 11:16 PM
Subject: Re: Racist Poetry Festival Set for New York
>"g.v.w. iv" wrote:
>
>>Apparently not, Brain-dead McFreely.
>
> Oh look! A pun! Not a very good one, but...
Point taken. i hate puns too.
>
>>Apparently a human slope jar calling itself Dale Houstman
>>concurs with your limp-witted mischaracterization.
>
>I have been to poetry slams, and formed an opinion of my own that happens
to
>concur with Brain-Dead's. I also agree that this subject appears to have
Stop stroking yourself, Dale. You formed no opinion. That suggests some
degree of reflection on your part, a ridiculous proposition. Rather, you
were confronted by creative people involved in a creative activity. Shocked
senseless by the spectacle, you soiled yourself in a blind panic as you
shrieked inconsolably about a long dead school of aesthetic production
called Surrealism.
No one understood you. No one even cared. They had more relevant concerns.
>brought the worst out in you. Did mother stop loving you simply because
>she found you eating your own shit?
Agree with whom, Doilie boy? Would you like me to start talking about your
mother?
>
>> He identifies with you. In you, Brian, little Dale Houstman
>> discovers a kindred spirit. Love is in the air.
>
> Who knows? First of all: what is wrong with love of any sort? You
Oh, stop sniveling, Dale. i find your love for Braindead touching, that's
all. i shed a tear.
>seem to have affection issues, that drive you to disparage others who
>agree with one another. Are you feeling left out, unloved? Is the
i do. i have affection issues regarding you and Braindead. The two of you
may reproduce; the possibility frightens me. Why do people like you persist
from generation to generation? What possible survival value does aggressive
stupidity confer on so ill-adapted an organism as a Dale Houstman?
i simply don't understand.
>fact that you appear to agree with some others a sign that you are
>buggering them on weekends? Or does that rather limp schematic
>of yours only work badly in one direction?
Schematic, thesaurus boy? Are your awkward locutions a Surrealist
affectation?
>
>> Ignorance and stupidity plague all of Usenet.
>
> And surely you are the bubo which constitutes its early sign?
In a sense, yes. i signal the organism's conflict with the infection, e.g.
you.
> Your personalized over-reaction to a simple expression of dislike (and
>a dislike gathered toward an institution not an individual) says much more
>about your lack than mine or Brandon's.
My lack of what? Watch your antecedents, bright boy.
>Again: since you repeat Andrea's idiocy; I placed apostrophes about
>the word "living" because it was ironic. Your inability to grasp this
rather
>fundamental usage places you in the Andrea Hall of Aggressive Density.
Oh, the disgrace. i'll never get over it. You and your apostrophes. A
powerful gesture, bright boy.
>
>DMH
>
>
Brandon J. Freels
>i waste my time on this project because i want to provoke you. Because i
Don't waste your time with this one, Dale.
---BJF
bob jones
> From: Dale Houstman <dale.h...@gte.net>
>
> >"g.v.w. iv" wrote:
> >
> >> Surrealism is dead-letter, interesting only as an historical artifact.
> > Massively incorrect and demonstrably so. But if it is true for you,
>
> Not simply incorrect, but massively incorrect. And demonstrably so. All
> right, Dale. Demonstrate it.
[...]
Harry Claude Cat is dead. So I dreamed.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
g.v.w. iv
From: Brandon J. Freels <fre...@teleport.com>
Newsgroups: alt.surrealism,rec.arts.prose
Date: Tuesday, April 06, 1999 1:13 AM
Subject: Re: Racist Poetry Festival Set for New York
Do as you will, rube.
>---BJF
Dale Houstman
> Andrea Chen, as "g.v.w. iv" wrote
> >i waste my time on this project because i want to provoke you. Because i
> have time to >kill.
>
> Don't waste your time with this one, Dale.
> ---BJF
Yeah, I got it finally; if she has time to kill can't she kill herself?
DMH
g.v.w. iv
Date: Tuesday, April 06, 1999 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: Racist Poetry Festival Set for New York
Do you always do what your girlfriend Brian tells you to do, Dale? What a
boring little sock-puppet you are.
You are so whipped.
bob jones
"g.v.w. iv" <gv...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
> From: Dale Houstman <dale.h...@gte.net>
>
> >"g.v.w. iv" wrote:
>
> >vision from the past. This may be true for those who are endlessly in
>
> Faded the colors of human vision, metaphor boy? Does human vision have
> color? No. We perceive color.
My dogs see better in the dark than me. Bastards. They
tell me it's because they have conical sensors in their
eyes which work better at night than the cylinders I
have. Of course the payoff is they can't distinguish
colours with their cones as well as my cylinders let me.
--
Endis Nigh,
The Tubular Guy.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
bob jones
> From: Dale Houstman <dale.h...@gte.net>
> >> It's amazing to hear these people talk about Freud (they're
Whassat? Oh, sorry.
<insert text here>
> Pursue the analogy, Dale. Bodies of theory and general hypotheses about the
> world come and go. Generally, when a theoretical model can explain or
> predict the phenomena of the world more precisely or more simply than
> another, it wins.
Why has the Flat Earth Society disintegrated then?
> Instance: Copernican astronomy as opposed to the Ptolemaic
> system.
Or quantum physics as opposed to Newtonian?
> Revolutions are always verbose.
> Leon Trotsky
'Got anything for a splitting headache?'
bob jones
Dale Houstman <dale.h...@gte.net> wrote:
> "Brandon J. Freels" wrote:
>
> >
> > Don't waste your time with this one, Dale.
> > ---BJF
>
> Yeah, I got it finally; if she has time to kill can't she kill herself?
Now I'm lost. This thread's been relatively interesting
to follow, but I'm at a loss now. What did you get? Was
it some sort of rash? As an aside, you sound more like
an existentialist than a surr3alist now. Does anyone
know if that is allowed?
Dale Houstman
bob jones wrote:
>
>
> Now I'm lost. This thread's been relatively interesting
> to follow, but I'm at a loss now. What did you get? Was
> it some sort of rash?
It's always some sort of a rash.
> As an aside, you sound more like an existentialist than
> a surrealist now. Does anyone know if that
> is allowed?
I reserve the right to sound like any "ism" I accidentally
might sound like, and I don't think surrealism is a ritual set
of response-styles at any rate.
DMH
g.v.w. iv
alt.surrealism,rec.arts.prose,alt.religion.kibology,alt.flogging.a.dead.hors
e
Date: Wednesday, April 07, 1999 6:14 AM
Subject: Re: Racist Poetry Festival Set for New York
>
>bob jones wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Now I'm lost. This thread's been relatively interesting
>> to follow, but I'm at a loss now. What did you get? Was
>> it some sort of rash?
>
> It's always some sort of a rash.
i'll say.
>
>> As an aside, you sound more like an existentialist than
>> a surrealist now. Does anyone know if
that
>> is allowed?
>
> I reserve the right to sound like any "ism" I accidentally
>might sound like, and I don't think surrealism is a ritual set
>of response-styles at any rate.
And yet you respond in strings of dreary cliches, awkwardly executed. When
Dale uses the term ''Surrealist,'' he really means ''suburban.''
>
> DMH
>
>
gilbert vanburen wilkes iv
http://eserver.org/home/wilkes
<a href="http://www.2600.com/mindex.html">Free Kevin</a>
Revolutions are always verbose.
Leon Trotsky
g.v.w. iv
-----Original Message-----
From: bob jones <fr...@my-dejanews.com>
Newsgroups: alt.surrealism,rec.arts.prose
Date: Wednesday, April 07, 1999 12:18 AM
Subject: Re: Racist Poetry Festival Set for New York
>In article <002101be7fe3$20738d20$86740280@gvw>,
> "g.v.w. iv" <gv...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
>> From: Dale Houstman <dale.h...@gte.net>
>>
>> >"g.v.w. iv" wrote:
>>
>> >I disagree with your idea that progress has faded the colors of human
>> >vision from the past. This may be true for those who are endlessly in
>>
>> Faded the colors of human vision, metaphor boy? Does human vision have
>> color? No. We perceive color.
>
>
>My dogs see better in the dark than me. Bastards. They
>tell me it's because they have conical sensors in their
>eyes which work better at night than the cylinders I
>have. Of course the payoff is they can't distinguish
>colours with their cones as well as my cylinders let me.
Most ironic. Brian and Dale, the doctrinaire dullards who call themselves
''Surrealists,'' affect a tone like that of the directions that came with my
VCR.
You, on the other hand, sound like a genuine surrealist.
Go away, Brian and Dale. Leave alt.surrealism for
alt.suburban.affordable_tract-housing.
>> Pursue the analogy, Dale. Bodies of theory and general hypotheses about
the
>> world come and go. Generally, when a theoretical model can explain or
>> predict the phenomena of the world more precisely or more simply than
>> another, it wins. Instance: Copernican astronomy as opposed to the
Ptolemaic
>> system.
>>
>> Surrealism is like the Ptolemaic system. It worked for a time. But now
its
>> time is over.
>>
>> >
>> >> Surrealism liberates nothing. The world that produced it is gone.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Then please go with it, before the last bus is gone. I do not see
>> >what is restraining you. You are almost missionarial in your blind
>>
>> ''Missionarial?'' Try missionary, literacy boy.
>>
>> >need to convert. To what? Tell me. It may add something to
>>
>> i want to convert you to literacy, you imbecile. How can you champion a
>> cause if you can't write? Let me help you.
>>
>> >my own experience, which you deny exists.
>>
>> i do not deny that you experience the world, Doilie Houstman. i only deny
>> that you can articulate that experience in any meaningful way.
>>
>> Thank you for demonstrating the truth of my claim.
>>
>> >
>> >DMH
>> >
>> >
>>
>> i like you, by the way. Please don't take any of this personally. i just
do
>> this to impress Ms. Chen.
>>
>> gilbert vanburen wilkes iv
>> http://eserver.org/home/wilkes
>> <a href="http://www.2600.com/mindex.html">Free Kevin</a>
>>
>> Revolutions are always verbose.
>> Leon Trotsky
>>
>>
>
Throckey
>
>Most ironic. Brian and Dale, the doctrinaire dullards who call themselves
>''Surrealists,'' affect a tone like that of the directions that came with my
>VCR.
>
>You, on the other hand, sound like a genuine surrealist.
>
>Go away, Brian and Dale. Leave alt.surrealism for
>alt.suburban.affordable_tract-housing.
>
alt.suburban.affordable_tract-housing is a *nice*
newsgroup. The closest they come to Andre Breton
is a discussion of Berber Carpet outgassing.
Frankly I prefer alt.fondle.vomit.
-B
g.v.w. iv
From: bob jones <fr...@my-dejanews.com>
Newsgroups: alt.surrealism,rec.arts.prose
Date: Wednesday, April 07, 1999 12:24 AM
Subject: Re: Racist Poetry Festival Set for New York
>In article <002101be7fe3$20738d20$86740280@gvw>,
> "g.v.w. iv" <gv...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Dale Houstman <dale.h...@gte.net>
>
>> >> It's amazing to hear these people talk about Freud (they're
>
>Whassat? Oh, sorry.
>
><insert text here>
>
>> Pursue the analogy, Dale. Bodies of theory and general hypotheses about
the
>> world come and go. Generally, when a theoretical model can explain or
>> predict the phenomena of the world more precisely or more simply than
>> another, it wins.
>
>
>Why has the Flat Earth Society disintegrated then?
Now the Flat Earthers call themselves ''Surrealists,'' e.g. Brian and Dale.
How Surreal, but only in an unintentional, ironic sense. As in, ''how
sublimely Surreal that these constipated clowns who can neither write nor
think want to call themselves 'Surrealists.'''
i had a nice dialog with Dale until his paramour, Brian, silenced him with
but a word. Dale poses as Brian's ventriloquist's dummy. i only wish i had a
secundo so obedient. Most Surreal, the two of them, but only in an
unintential, ironic sense ... i repeat myself. But empty repetition
qualifies me as a Surrealist in alt.surreal, where empty repetition rules.
>
>> Instance: Copernican astronomy as opposed to the Ptolemaic
>> system.
>
>Or quantum physics as opposed to Newtonian?
An excellent example, yes.
>
>> Revolutions are always verbose.
>> Leon Trotsky
>
>'Got anything for a splitting headache?'
You wouldn't like it, Chris.
PK
> >>>>rappers will hold a war of words and cowboy poets will sing their songs.
>
> Besides the racist inclinations discovered above isn't there something wrong
> with holding "a war of words?" Wasn't it Breton who said words should be
> "making love?" Am I the only one who sees the "poetry slam" as the worst
> thing that ever happened to the word "poetry?"
Indeed. It is offensive that cowboy poets are implicitly assumed to
be all-whites, and therefore incapable of agression, which perhaps is
why the NZ soccer team doesn't win many games. As for "the worst thing
that ever happened to poetry", surely that must be that few people care
about it; and not that a sub-field of poetry is being promoted.
#Paul
Brandon J. Freels
>Most ironic. Brian and Dale, the doctrinaire dullards who call themselves
>''Surrealists,'' affect a tone like that of the directions that came with
my VCR.
Who is Brian?
Brandon J. Freels
>As for "the worst thing that ever happened to poetry", surely that must be
that few >people care about it; and not that a sub-field of poetry is being
promoted.
I agree. Poetry slams are only "one" of the worst things that can happen to
poetry. And is the poetry produced at these "slams" really "poetic?"
Gilbert Vanburen Wilkes
intervention.
i blame the crystal meth.
g.v.w. iv
http://eserver.org/home/wilkes
<a href="http://www.2600.com/mindex.html">Free Kevin</a>
barrett john erickson
g.v.w. iv <gv...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote in message
news:006901be80f9$24b05320$81740280@gvw...
> Most ironic. Brian and Dale, the doctrinaire dullards who call themselves
> ''Surrealists,'' affect a tone like that of the directions that came with
my
> VCR.
the analogy, i assume, is that you didn't understand that either.
i realize that these posts are probably just part of your PhD research, or
maybe some twisted job-search in the growing field of "argumentation
theory". it should be obvious that a guy so proud (as his web site
indicates) of the awards and documentation of acceptance bestowed upon him
by the gatekeepers of the existing order, a guy who appears (as evidenced by
his posts) to think "rhetoric" -- or, more accurately in your case, juvenile
insult -- has some value in intself, is a guy who has no significant
affinity with "surrealism".
half a dozen others have bellowed the same empty rant in the last couple
months and yours is nothing but cold porridge.
nevertheless, we are a patient lot, always willing to reexamine our
thinking. so please feel free to specifically challenge any comment that
you've read which leads you to believe a "doctrinaire" version of
"surrealism" is being advocated by anyone here. i'm sure several of us will
attempt to enlighten you as to the error of your interpretation.
of course, our patience and the potential for such enlightenment depends
upon you understanding that a dialog is something other than a contest.
from my perspective, it is you who refuses to examine your doctrinaire
misinterpretations.
-- barrett
bar...@MagneticFields.org
http://www.MagneticFields.org/
"Everything tends to make us believe that there exists a certain point of
the mind at which life and death, the real and the imagined, past and
future, the communicable and the incommunicable, high and low, cease to be
perceived as contradictions."
...André Breton
Fascinan
>his posts) to think "rhetoric" -- or, more accurately in your case, juvenile
>insult -- has some value in intself, is a guy who has no significant
>affinity with "surrealism".
Well Barrett, he does have a rather presidential name to live up to. And it's
tough to be a considerate "dialectician" these days. Or is he a "rhetorician".
hmmm, no matter.
It does seem odd that such a scholarly chap would come around just begging for
argumentation--it is kinda juvenille.
"Argue with me, I have been well trained in argumentation, and you must rebut
my insults! I defy you! Brian, and Doily, nah nah na nah nah....etc."
It's always fun around here.
Fas
Asbestos Dust
wrote:
> As an aside, you sound more like
>an existentialist than a surr3alist now. Does anyone
>know if that is allowed?
In tournament play, no. However, in the roadside-tavern version (as
here), "slop" surrealism is pretty common, especially when the players
are just drinking-buddy amateurs and no serious money is on the line.
AD
Asbestos Dust
<dale.h...@gte.net> wrote:
> I reserve the right
Ah, the last refuge of a man who can't think of another reason to do
something.
>to sound like any "ism" I accidentally
>might sound like,
As, for example, the present case: Wankerism.
>and I don't think surrealism is a ritual set
>of response-styles at any rate.
This, from one who's been trying to define who is and who isn't a
surrealist, and what is and what is not surrealist thought. My, what
broad vistas we've set for ourselves in our circumscribed little
cells. The irony is breathtaking.
AD
Brandon J. Freels
Please define Wankerism in your own words. You have fifty seconds.
Brandon J. Freels
---BJF
Gilbert Vanburen Wilkes wrote in message ...
>Damn it. i meant Brandon, not Brian. Thank you for your timely
>intervention.
>
>i blame the crystal meth.
>
>g.v.w. iv
>http://eserver.org/home/wilkes
><a href="http://www.2600.com/mindex.html">Free Kevin</a>
>
>On Wed, 7 Apr 1999, Brandon J. Freels wrote:
>
>> g.v.w. iv wrote
>> >Most ironic. Brian and Dale, the doctrinaire dullards who call
themselves
>> >''Surrealists,'' affect a tone like that of the directions that came
with
>> my VCR.
>>
>>
>> Who is Brian?
>>
>>
>>
>
Dale Houstman
>I defy you! Brian, and Doily, nah nah na nah nah....etc."
Oddly enough I rather enjoy being called Doily; it isn't at all
unlike the way many of my peers pronounced my name when I lived in
England, and (really) doilies are rather pretty pieces of handiwork. I
suppose he means it as a euphemism for "fey" but that scarcely bothers
me. Still, as you indicate, if this is the best a scholar can come up with,
I fear for our intellectual class. Ignored by the body politic, laughed
at by their former acolytes; their bitterness turns inward, clogging
their lobes. At least, this is one explanation for his dogged dimness.
DMH
Dale Houstman
> Asbestos Dust wrote "Wankerism"
>
> Please define Wankerism in your own words. You have fifty seconds.
Well, it's stupid isn't it? I cannot understand this pre-adolescent
(and
vaguely 1950s) notion that accusing someone of masturbation is in any
way to the point. It is no different than me attempting to diminish you
by accusing you of "Breatherism." And (by the by) I have heard that
you are guilty of this heresy! Brian...
DMH
Dale Houstman
> g.v.w. iv wrote
> >Most ironic. Brian and Dale, the doctrinaire dullards who call themselves
> >''Surrealists,'' affect a tone like that of the directions that came with
> my VCR.
It is, I suppose, his VCR repairman.
DMH
g.v.w. iv
From: Dale Houstman <dale.h...@gte.net>
Newsgroups:
alt.surrealism,rec.arts.prose,alt.religion.kibology,alt.flogging.a.dead.hors
e
Date: Wednesday, April 07, 1999 7:44 PM
Subject: Re: Racist Poetry Festival Set for New York
>"Brandon J. Freels" wrote:
>
>> Asbestos Dust wrote "Wankerism"
>>
>> Please define Wankerism in your own words. You have fifty seconds.
>
> Well, it's stupid isn't it? I cannot understand this pre-adolescent
>(and
>vaguely 1950s) notion that accusing someone of masturbation is in any
Masturbation dates back only to the 1950s? Doubtless it was an Eisenhower
era innovation implemented to close the orgasm gap with the Warsaw Pact.
>way to the point. It is no different than me attempting to diminish you
>by accusing you of "Breatherism." And (by the by) I have heard that
>you are guilty of this heresy! Brian...
i can say this of you, Dale, or Brandon, depending on whether i choose to
address the sock-puppeteer or his sock: you are innocent of any charge of
Surrealism, or of producing anything remotely Surreal, or of even knowing
what the term means.
>
>DMH
>
>
gilbert vanburen wilkes iv
http://eserver.org/home/wilkes
<a href="http://www.2600.com/mindex.html">Free Kevin</a>
Revolutions are always verbose.
Leon Trotsky
g.v.w. iv
-----Original Message-----
From: Dale Houstman <dale.h...@gte.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.prose,alt.surrealism
Date: Wednesday, April 07, 1999 7:35 PM
Subject: Re: Who? [was Re: Racist Poetry Festival Set for New York]
>"Brandon J. Freels" wrote:
>
>> g.v.w. iv wrote
>> >Most ironic. Brian and Dale, the doctrinaire dullards who call
themselves
>> >''Surrealists,'' affect a tone like that of the directions that came
with
>> my VCR.
>
> It is, I suppose, his VCR repairman.
Do ersatz Surrealists oppose women in the workforce? Use the terms ''repair
person'' or ''service person,'' you insensitive prick.
Dale Houstman
Dale is a female name also, you insensitve prong.
What you don't know could fill the cavity in your head.
I do not subject myself to your little p.c. derangements. Projecting
insensitivity while deriding insensitivity is ignorant.
Your leisure-time project bores me...
Dale
barrett john erickson
> Do ersatz Surrealists oppose women in the workforce? Use the terms
''repair
> person'' or ''service person,'' you insensitive prick.
i guess g.v.w. is just here to show off his rhetorical skills. shit, i wish
i could argue so persuasively.
barrett john erickson
sorry to keep on about this, but i seem to have become mesmerized by modern
education...
g.v.w. iv <gv...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote in message
news:004501be8159$089afcc0$a8740280@gvw...
Dale wrote...
> > Well, it's stupid isn't it? I cannot understand this pre-adolescent
> >(and vaguely 1950s) notion that accusing someone of masturbation is in
any
to which gvw replied...
> Masturbation dates back only to the 1950s? Doubtless it was an Eisenhower
> era innovation implemented to close the orgasm gap with the Warsaw Pact.
is this an example of the quality of education one receives with an M.A.
from Carnegie Mellon?
can you only follow simple declarative sentences -- or are you trained to
attempt diversion whenever possible?
> i can say this of you, Dale, or Brandon, depending on whether i choose to
> address the sock-puppeteer or his sock: you are innocent of any charge of
> Surrealism, or of producing anything remotely Surreal, or of even knowing
> what the term means.
and you, g.v.w., have yet to offer anything that might convince us that you
have anything to say that is worth listening to. your opinions about what
is or isn't "remotely Surreal" are about as credible as (but less
interesting than) my opinions about the intimate bathing habits of Vatican
staff during papal visits to the holy investment banker.
Brandon J. Freels
>i can say this of you, Dale, or Brandon [etc...]
Don't you mean "Brian"?
g.v.w. iv
From: barrett john erickson <bar...@magneticfields.org>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.prose,alt.surrealism
Date: Wednesday, April 07, 1999 9:37 PM
Subject: Re: Who? [was Re: Racist Poetry Festival Set for New York]
>
>g.v.w. iv <gv...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote in message
>news:004a01be8159$825a9700$a8740280@gvw...
>
>> Do ersatz Surrealists oppose women in the workforce? Use the terms
>''repair
>> person'' or ''service person,'' you insensitive prick.
>
>i guess g.v.w. is just here to show off his rhetorical skills. shit, i
wish
No. i'm here to learn about Surrealism. But the Dale/Brandon ventriloquist's
dummy act seem oddly uninformed on the subject. They gibber and squeak, but
refuse to share anything of substance.
What about you? What do you know about Surrealism? Or are you just another
poseur?
>i could argue so persuasively.
i would be satisfied if you could form a proper sentence. It would restore
my faith in our wretched public schools.
>
>
>-- barrett
>
> bar...@MagneticFields.org
> http://www.MagneticFields.org/
>
>"Everything tends to make us believe that there exists a certain point of
>the mind at which life and death, the real and the imagined, past and
>future, the communicable and the incommunicable, high and low, cease to be
>perceived as contradictions."
What gibbering idiot Dale Houstman of a person ''perceives'' the terms
''high and low'' as contradicting each other? Most of us perceive high and
low, communicable and incommunicable &c. as points on a continuum.
Otherwise, empirical or evaluative claims like ''this is higher than that''
(an empirical claim suggesting a scalar relation) or ''this communicates
better than that'' (an evaluative claim suggesting, again, a relation of
scale) would be contradictory, hence meaningless. But these claims do have
meaning. We make claims like this all the time in our ordinary talk about
the world.
So i suppose we're all Surrealists, barrett. Well, everyone except the
Brandon/Dale sock-puppeteer/sock-puppet entity.
i read Caw's translation of Breton's _Mad Love_ once. It bored me to tears.
Thank you for reminding me why i never returned to Breton.
i adore the paintings of Rene-Francois-Ghislan Magritte, however. But then,
don't we all?
>
> ...André Breton
g.v.w. iv
No. You corrected me, remember? i thanked you; you said i was welcome.
g.v.w. iv
From: Dale Houstman <dale.h...@gte.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.prose,alt.surrealism
Subject: Re: Who? [was Re: Racist Poetry Festival Set for New York]
>
>Dale is a female name also, you insensitve prong.
Really? i never met a female Dale. Are you a hermaphrodite then?
How insensitive of me.
>
>What you don't know could fill the cavity in your head.
Oh, a cunning riposte. Hurtful. One could almost call it Surreal. Well, if
one were a moron. Which you are. Which is why you insist on calling yourself
a Surrealist.
>
>I do not subject myself to your little p.c. derangements. Projecting
And yet you did, Dale. Otherwise, how could you respond to it?
>insensitivity while deriding insensitivity is ignorant.
Ignorant of what, Dale?
>
>Your leisure-time project bores me...
i intend to bore you even more, little Dale.
Tell me more about this Surrealism thing you know so little about.
>
>Dale
Throckey
Asbestos Dust wrote in message <370c37c...@news.cooke.net>...
>On Wed, 7 Apr 1999 17:01:22 -0700, "Brandon J. Freels"
><fre...@teleport.com> wrote:
>
>>Asbestos Dust wrote "Wankerism"
>
>>Please define Wankerism in your own words. You have fifty seconds.
>
>right out there in front of God and everybody while futilely
>attempting to mask it as Deep Thought. A masturbatory exercise
>frequently engaged in by net denizens whose incapacity to deal with
>real life increases the orgasmic pleasure of pretending to have a clue
>while stroking their keyboards. Found throughout usenet, but in heavy
>concentrations in such places as alt.granola, alt.philosophy,
>alt.surrealism, alt.deepthoughts, and
>alt.sofuckingphoneyevenhollywoodwontbuyit.
>
Oh sure, Mr. Never-touched-myself-not-even-in-the-shower man.
Fervent masturbation is the answer to most of life's larger
issues. Suppose Bill PalmJob had a pud to whack. Then he
could wank himself until his pee-pee disappeared in a sea
of callouses instead of posting his pud-impaired drivel on
usenet. Suppose the Serbian Nation had taken up wanking
as opposed to trying to get even for a defeat that happened
back in 1300-something? Wouldn't the world be a better place?
Take my advice. Burp some fluids on the monitor before
ever post. It'll help you.
-B
Spank Club for Surrealists: I'm not just the president,
I'm a satisfied customer
Asbestos Dust
<fre...@teleport.com> wrote:
>Asbestos Dust wrote "Wankerism"
>Please define Wankerism in your own words. You have fifty seconds.
wankerism \wank-er-izim\ (n): The practice of pulling one's own pud
right out there in front of God and everybody while futilely
attempting to mask it as Deep Thought. A masturbatory exercise
frequently engaged in by net denizens whose incapacity to deal with
real life increases the orgasmic pleasure of pretending to have a clue
while stroking their keyboards. Found throughout usenet, but in heavy
concentrations in such places as alt.granola, alt.philosophy,
alt.surrealism, alt.deepthoughts, and
alt.sofuckingphoneyevenhollywoodwontbuyit.
(See Also Biography Section: "Brandon J. Freels, Wankerism As A Life
Choice")
AD
==================================================
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist
the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
--H. L. Mencken (1880-1956)
==================================================
Asbestos Dust
<dale.h...@gte.net> wrote:
>"Brandon J. Freels" wrote:
>
>> Asbestos Dust wrote "Wankerism"
>>
>> Please define Wankerism in your own words. You have fifty seconds.
>
> Well, it's stupid isn't it? I cannot understand this pre-adolescent
>(and
>vaguely 1950s) notion that accusing someone of masturbation is in any
>way to the point. It is no different than me attempting to diminish you
>by accusing you of "Breatherism." And (by the by) I have heard that
>you are guilty of this heresy! Brian...
>
>DMH
>
Aww, ain't he cute? C'mon, Brandon, get him to do another trick.
Nothing I like better than a well-trained lap-dog. Oh, hey, Brandon,
can you get him to do the one where he gets to running in circles and
yapping? That one just cracks me up.
Asbestos Dust
<fre...@teleport.com> wrote:
>g.v.w. iv wrote
>>i can say this of you, Dale, or Brandon [etc...]
>
>Don't you mean "Brian"?
Brian? Brian? Uhmmm....oh, I see! Humor. Right, gotcha, OK then.
Question: Does ALL surrealist humor suck? Just trying to get up to
speed on this stuff, y'know....
AD
Asbestos Dust
wrote:
>Masturbation dates back only to the 1950s?
Yes, it was a Republican invention to attempt to cut into the
projected post-war baby boom. Before then, it was sex or nothing,
(which goes a long way toward explaining some of the hidden reasons
which lead up to WWII).
AD
B. Callaghan
Gilbert Vanburen Wilkes <g...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote in article
<Pine.SOL.3.96L.99040...@unix4.andrew.cmu.edu>...
> Damn it. i meant Brandon, not Brian. Thank you for your timely
> intervention.
>
> i blame the crystal meth.
>
> g.v.w. iv
Gilbert, only for you do I reveal my shameful secrets. Once we were having a big
dinner party, 10 people, which really maxes out my dining room but what the heck!
We're friends, we get cozy. Some of the guests said they were vegetarians and don't
do red meat, but they *would* eat chicken. Himself is meat and potatoes all the way
so I said "oK, I'll get a small roast and an oven stuffer chicken." So I cooks the roast
and this huge chicken and baked potatoes and carrots and green beans almondine
and crusty bread and by the time I'm finished with all of this everyone's STARVING cuz
I'm not organized enough for everything to be ready in sync. The table's nicely set,
we're squished in all snuggly like I said and David starts to slice the roast. Well, the
men *devour* the roast in minutes, despite their vegetarian bents or chidings from
health-conscious mates. No problem - we still have this humungous chicken! So
himself is carving the chicken up, as he does with the Special Carving Set which is
never to be found when I have PMS, (but that's a different story) when we both realize to
our chagrin that what looked like a big juicy bird doesn't have a whole lotta meat on it!
By now the roast is history - whoulda thunk all these vegetarians would have their
carnivorous appetites reawakened (just like that Star Trek episode where Spock gets
transported back in time and falls in love with Marietta Hartley and eats red meat and
LIKES IT?) To say the breast meat was slim-pickins is an understatement. David
keeps slicing off scraps of meat from the legs and wings while my guests consume all
the carrots, potatoes, green beans, 3 bottles of wine and bread. The hour is late now,
so we mercifully dive into the cake someone has thoughtfully brought for the birthday
girl. By the end of the evening, all guests are satiated, caffeinated and sent on their
way.
As I'm clearing off the dishes, I realize that I cooked the chicken upside-down.
I'd blame the crystal meth if only I could ...
- bettina
scot...@earthlink.net
wrote:
>No. i'm here to learn about Surrealism
ya... well... sure...
But I do have to give credit where credit is due. I thought one of
your earlier posts was well done. It was very funny. I actually
broke out laughing when I came across:
"Surrealism is interesting... only... because a critical community
(other artists, critics, connoisseurs, collectors, curators etc.)
responded favorably....."
Your trolling pose as a dummy who happens to write well... but who
out of ignorance of the subject gets it all wrong ... and who is
quick to throw insults around... is kind of interesting. But not
original.
And, I don't think the pose can be maintained very long.. Very
quickly it seems it just comes down to insults and demands.
That is probably the only possible way your chosen pose would be able
to maintain control and remain at center stage.
You are able to write well. Maybe you are a dummy, but I think you
probably are not.
From what you've written I'm really not sure if you know anything
about surrealism or not. The way you arranged some of your
provocative statements makes me suspect you may know something.
If you are really interested in surrealism I suggest you hang around a
while and really try to take part in the discussion or provoke real
discussion.
The group has normal problems. There is flaming. Periodically the
group is flooded with boatloads of shit. (this was going on last week.
hundreds of forged posts from some kind of bot.) And there are
frequent trollers like yourself trying to become the center of
attention. Sometimes they are nimble and actually surround themselves
with interesting discussion. Sometime they are simply,
as you are becoming, obnoxious and boring.
(In terms of a critique, I think the problems with nimbleness that
you are having here has to do with the natural limits of the pose you
are experimenting with.)
Over the long hall the group is interesting and valuable. If you
really check it out you may (or may not) agree.
I normally would not bother to take part in the game you are playing.
However I did enjoy one of your posts. I did end up laughing. So I
guess I owe you this much.
Robert Maughan
scot...@earthlink.net writes
[...]
>And, I don't think the pose can be maintained very long.. Very
>quickly it seems it just comes down to insults and demands.
>That is probably the only possible way your chosen pose would be able
>to maintain control and remain at center stage.
[...]
Jeez, that is one ugly paragraph. Who started this? Why is it you guys
always end up pulling in these unutterably longwinded wankers? What the
fuck is the point of insulting people who patently cannot resolve their
own endless, tedious issues - never mind ellipses. They spend all their
time demonstrating how they can suck their own dicks, then you go right
ahead and give them one by one a hard-on. You know who you are, Gilbert.
Alt.surrealism yet - I've had more absolutely realistic bowel movements.
RJM.
Dale Houstman
When one comes across true intelligence for the first time,
all one can do is stand in silent awe.
This is what I plan to do from now on, as regards your
composts. You are obviously too good for the likes of us
and the only question that remains is: what does such a
wrathful deity deign to stick around at all? Obviously
the only answer is: once the wrath fades the god must
return to his self-abuse.
Once you are through killing time, please feel no reticence
about killing yourself.
Hoping to see you in the papers. Maybe you could cap a
perfect career in hollow aggression by sticking your head
in a recently utilized toilet? Just a suggestion, Marquis de Dumb...
DMH
g.v.w. iv
From: scot...@earthlink.net <scot...@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.surrealism,rec.arts.prose
Date: Thursday, April 08, 1999 3:53 AM
Subject: Re: Who? [was Re: Racist Poetry Festival Set for New York]
On Wed, 7 Apr 1999 22:38:59 -0500, "g.v.w. iv" <gv...@andrew.cmu.edu>
wrote:
>No. i'm here to learn about Surrealism
> ya... well... sure...
Perhaps i do have ulterior motives.
> You are able to write well. Maybe you are a dummy, but I think you
> probably are not.
i do not write well. i write like an academic. Which is to say, not well.
But it serves my purpose, because academic prose tends to provoke hostile
responses. As for being a dummy i blame our wretched public schools.
[...]
> I normally would not bother to take part in the game you are playing.
> However I did enjoy one of your posts. I did end up laughing. So I
> guess I owe you this much.
Stop making me like you. So far you're the only Surrealist i've met with a
sense of humor.
i have no intention of harming your group. i pursue other agendas.
g.v.w. iv
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Maughan <r...@etymon.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.surrealism,rec.arts.prose
Date: Thursday, April 08, 1999 4:55 AM
Subject: Re: Who? [was Re: Racist Poetry Festival Set for New York]
>
So noted, Robert. i thought they had promise. i honestly did.
>
> RJM.