Question for Dale, Brandon, Parry, barrett and others.
Sven
> Will you-all please recommend some good modern novels or novellas to
> me? They don't have to be surrealist though that would be a nice
> surprise.
>
> _A Clockwork Orange_ was the last tory of any length I could put up
> with past chapter one.
>
> I'm interested in knowing about books with intensely beautiful
> imagery.
>
> Thanks!
>
> cythera
I know this question isn't aimed at me, but I would seriously recommend "My
Name is Asher Lev" by Chaim Potok. It's about a Jewish artist, torn between
his genius and his family. It's a fantastic story, entirely gripping,
beautifully written, and Potok's insight into the mind of an artist, and the
way it sees life in a different, visionary way, is stunning.
Nikolaus Maack
> Will you-all please recommend some good modern novels or novellas to
> me?
No. And when I say "no", I mean "yes".
I am currently reading, "The Executioner's Song" by Norman Mailer. Mailer
calls it a "true life novel". Various critics drown the text in praise
for some reason. It reads honest-like. The clean, simple text drags in
places. Its strength is also its weakness -- Mailer gives us details,
details, details. So many details. Details on top of details. Details
inside details. Details underneath details.
Would I recommend it to you? Would I recommend it to anyone? I'm not
sure.
It's over 1,000 pages long and it talks about Gary Gilmore, a murderer.
He seems to have killed two Mormon men because he was mad at his
girlfriend, Nicole. There seems to be no connection between what he did
and why he did it. Even Gilmore himself seems to be at a loss for motive.
It's Camus' "L'Etranger" all over again -- which might be another nice
book to check out.
Gilmore is both sympathetic and not. He is complicated. He is an artist.
He has an IQ of 120. He is an idiot.
It's odd -- he seems as complicated as any person I have met. Should
murderers be more complicated than normal people? I guess not. Perhaps
that's more than point than anytyhing else.
A whole lot of details don't add up to facts. Or something.
> _A Clockwork Orange_ was the last story of any length I could put up
> with past chapter one.
I read so much I often have difficulty remembering what I have read. You
might enjoy the Gormenghast trilogy by Mervyn Peake. It's surreal in a
Kafka surreal sort of way. It's one of the few books where the sentences
drag on endlessly but I read it all the same. Yay.
> I'm interested in knowing about books with intensely beautiful
> imagery.
Gormenghast, yes. Much imagery. Executioner's song? Not much imagery.
Nik
--
"I dote on myself. There is a lot of me, and all so luscious." -- Whitman
The Nik Maack Art Gallery
http://www.nikart.com
Sven
> cythera (cyt...@my-deja.com) writes:
>> Will you-all please recommend some good modern novels or novellas to
>> me?
[...]
>> _A Clockwork Orange_ was the last story of any length I could put up
>> with past chapter one.
>
> I read so much I often have difficulty remembering what I have read. You
> might enjoy the Gormenghast trilogy by Mervyn Peake. It's surreal in a
> Kafka surreal sort of way. It's one of the few books where the sentences
> drag on endlessly but I read it all the same. Yay.
I'd like to second Gormenghast, particularly the first two ("Titus Groan"
and "Gormenghast"). I don't know if you folks over the Atlantic have any
opportunity to see it, but the BBC did an excellent adaptation of it earlier
this year. The books are dark and creaky; I'd expected something like this,
but they took a stranger, more dreamlike, more colourful approach that is
surprisingly effective.
fluffy_...@my-deja.com
AVA is completely nonlinear if you really want to go for the "avant
garde" style. The American Woman in the Chinese Hat was one of her
first novels that got any attention, but I haven't been able to get
into that one.
In article <8ooohl$un$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
cythera <cyt...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Will you-all please recommend some good modern novels or novellas to
> me? They don't have to be surrealist though that would be a nice
> surprise.
>
> _A Clockwork Orange_ was the last tory of any length I could put up
> with past chapter one.
>
> I'm interested in knowing about books with intensely beautiful
> imagery.
>
> Thanks!
>
> cythera
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Dale Houstman
"cythera" <cyt...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8ooohl$un$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Will you-all please recommend some good modern novels or novellas to
> me? They don't have to be surrealist though that would be a nice
> surprise.
>
> _A Clockwork Orange_ was the last tory of any length I could put up
> with past chapter one.
>
> I'm interested in knowing about books with intensely beautiful
> imagery.
>
> Thanks!
>
have a hard time justifying him as even a semi-surrealist, since most of his
work (except for his last unfinished novel "Amerika") is about being
trapped and unable to act effectively. They are very funny (I always imagine
Buster Keaton in the protagonist role), but they are not surrealist in
nature.
Honestly, I've read an awfyl lot of science fiction these past few years.
Le- Guin's "The Dispossesed" is a very good analysis of capitalism versus
anarchism. I've given that to a lot of my friends. Also "Holy Smoke" by the
Cuban writer Cabrera is a pun-filled "history" of tobacco that is much more
interesting than it might sound.
There's a children's book (quite full of beautiful imagery) by E. Nesbit
called "The Enchanted Castle" which one of my friends compared to Mozart in
its construction, and is a delight all the way through. Almost too good for
kids!
I'll think on furhter and get back to you...
dmh
Sven
> In article <8oov9b$7pu$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca>,
> ac...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Nikolaus Maack) wrote:
>> cythera (cyt...@my-deja.com) writes:
>>> Will you-all please recommend some good modern novels or novellas
>>> to me?
>>
>> No. And when I say "no", I mean "yes".
>>
>> I am currently reading, "The Executioner's Song" by Norman Mailer.
>
> This sort of thing is the very reason I didn't ask _you_, Nik.
>
> And seeing from Sven's post to me that you recommended something
> called _Gormenghast_, I'll assume it's also violent and depressing.
>
> Please note that I asked my question to the people who probably have
> a tad of insight into my personality!
Gormenghast isn't violent. It isn't particularly depressing, either. It's
gothic, bizarre, quite dark but eerily fascinating.
If it's imagery you're after, I suggest "The Bridge" by Iain Banks. I don't
know how easy it is to get Iain Banks wherever you are (amazon.com has him)
but it is well worth the effort. The critics raved about it, the readers
raved about it, now I am.
Don't have much of an insight into your personality, sorry. I just like
recommending books to people!
brandon...@my-deja.com
> Will you-all please recommend some good modern novels or novellas to
> surprise.
Off the top of my head:
Richard Brautigan's In Watermelon Sugar (also his Conf. General from
Big Sur, and Trout Fishing in America)
Mark Leyner's Et Tu, Babe
Leonora Carrington's The Hearing Trumpet (her short stories are great
too!)
Nikolaus Maack
> And seeing from Sven's post to me that you recommended something
> called _Gormenghast_, I'll assume it's also violent and depressing.
Sven says it's neither violent nor depressing. A friend of mine who
recommended Gormenghast to me said it's the most depressing thing he ever
read in his entire life. I find it very dark, gloomy, and beautiful, but
I didn't find it depressing. And I agree with Sven, the first two books
are excellent -- the third is lacking.
There are images in there and turns of phrase that are absolute genius. I
loved the second book. And the very notion of Gormenghast -- a huge
sprawling, castle-maze city -- is a lovely one.
Here in Canada, Sven, they showed the Gormenghast series on TV. It was on
SPACE. They're showing it in reruns, now. Don't know if the yanks got a
chance to see it or not.
Kafka, Dale claims, isn't surreal. I'd just like to say that Dale is
misinformed. Kafka is very surreal. So there.
Cythera:
> Please note that I asked my question to the people who probably have
> a tad of insight into my personality!
I have insight into your personality. Unfortunately for you, it's the
part of your personality that you yourself lack insight about.
Parry
>
> Will you-all please recommend some good modern novels or novellas to
> me? They don't have to be surrealist though that would be a nice
> surprise.
>
> with past chapter one.
>
> I'm interested in knowing about books with intensely beautiful
> imagery.
One living novelist whose name springs to mind is Rikki Ducornet. Not
long deceased are Angela Carter and W.S. Burroughs. Kenneth Patchen’s
novels also have rich imagery. A couple of other favorites are Kafka and
Dashiell Hammett.
-- Parry
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Sven
> cythera (cyt...@my-deja.com) writes:
>> And seeing from Sven's post to me that you recommended something
>> called _Gormenghast_, I'll assume it's also violent and depressing.
>
> Sven says it's neither violent nor depressing. A friend of mine who
> recommended Gormenghast to me said it's the most depressing thing he ever
> read in his entire life. I find it very dark, gloomy, and beautiful, but
> I didn't find it depressing. And I agree with Sven, the first two books
> are excellent -- the third is lacking.
>
> There are images in there and turns of phrase that are absolute genius. I
> loved the second book. And the very notion of Gormenghast -- a huge
> sprawling, castle-maze city -- is a lovely one.
Just the first sentence of Titus Groan:
"Gormenghast, that is, the main massing of the original stone, taken by
itself would have displayed a certain ponderous architectural quality were
it possible to have ignored the circumfusion of those mean dwellings that
swarmed like an epidemic about its outer walls."
> Here in Canada, Sven, they showed the Gormenghast series on TV. It was on
> SPACE. They're showing it in reruns, now. Don't know if the yanks got a
> chance to see it or not.
The only thing I was slightly disappointed about was my favourite bit -- in
Gormenghast, when the castle is filling up with water -- was a bit too short
in the TV version. I loved the idea of a huge, sprawling castle-maze city
filling up with water, and everyone having to paddle round the rooms in
little boats.
Oh, and of course:
"THE FRIVOLOUS CAKE
---
A freckled and frivolous cake their was
That sailed on a pointless sea
Or any lugubrious lake there was
In a manner emphatic and free.
How jointlessly, and how jointlessly
The frivolous cake sailed by
On the waves of the ocean that pointlessly
Threw fish to the lilac sky.
Oh, plenty and plenty of hake their was
Of a glory beyond compare
And every conceivable make their was
Was tossed through the lilac air.
Up the smooth billows and over the crests
Of the cumbersome combers flew
The frivolous cake with a knife in the wake
Of herself and her curranty crew.
Like a swordfish grim it would bounce and skim.
(This dinner knife fierce and blue),
And the frivolous cake was filled to the brim
With the fun of her curranty crew.
Oh plenty and plenty of hake their was
Of a glory beyond compare
And every conceivable make their was
Was tossed through the lilac air.
Around the shores of the Elegant Isles
Where the cat-fish bask and purr
And lick their paws with adhesive smiles
And wriggle their fins of fur
They fly and fly 'neath the lilac sky --
THe frivolous cake, and the knife
Who winketh his glamorous indigo eye
In the wake of his future wife
The crumbs blow free down the pointless sea
To the beat of a cakey heart
And the sensitive steel of the knife can feel
That love is a race apart.
In the speed of the lingering light are blown
The crumbs to the hake above
And the tropical air vibrates to the drone
Of a cake in the throes of love."
-- Mervyn Peake
So who says it's depressing?
brandon...@my-deja.com
> Kafka, Dale claims, isn't surreal. I'd just like to say that Dale is
> misinformed. Kafka is very surreal. So there.
Nice attitude. Was that a taunt? You ever think that maybe this is why
people hate you?
Nikolaus Maack
> Dale explained why Kafka isn't surreal.
If Dale explained why jumping off a bridge is good for you, I suspect
they'd be trolling the river for your body the next day. Time to get your
own brain, Cyth.
A surreal image does not have to be an unexplained image. Take a man who
turns into a bug. Explore it as realistically as you can. Sure, maybe
there is "meaning" to the image. The poor bastard slid down the
evolutionary ladder because he forgot to embrace his own freedom.
Taking a dream-like image, exploring it, describing it in realistic
detail, even suggesting some possible interpretations for the images --
all of this is a part of surrealism. Why not?
In other words, realistic depictions of dreamy images that spring
(automatically, perhaps) to the artist's mind are just as authentic as
writing spontaneously.
As Sven pointed out, not all automatically generated images are surreal or
even interesting. "The dog ate the slice of bread." That was automatic.
So what? A certain type of automatic text makes the grade -- a clash of
jarring imagery. Which leads me to suspect that so-called "automatic"
text is rarely automatic in the first place.
Dale recently called my automatic writing a fraud. He declared it to be
clearly non-automatic. I had to laugh, because there can't possibly be a
clearly non-automatic text. That is, unless there is a very specific sort
of automatic text one is meant to produce, in which case, the text isn't
automatic at all. Is it?
So let Kafka be surreal, because he is. He furthered the cause. He
challenged people's minds, sliding under their radar by using dream
imagery. He pushed for freedom by emphasizing angst, God love his tiny
feelers.
Nikolaus Maack
> Nice attitude. Was that a taunt? You ever think that maybe this is why
> people hate you?
1) "It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice." Little
Ambrose, Archie comics. I hold this philosophy close to my heart.
2) No, it wasn't a taunt but a difference of opinion expressed in a silly
way. So there. Plttt! Your mother! Bugs are rocks and rocks are bugs,
I stuffed your underwear full of slugs.
3) People hate me because I am far more interesting than they are. For
example, I am vastly more interesting than you. I don't mean this to be
an insult, but a matter of fact. Who gets all the attention around here,
me or you? Me. Who would people rather meet in real life to talk about
art and other frivolties? I'll give you a hint -- it's not you. Who has
more fun? Me. No wonder people get so upset, forced to bask in my glow
all the time.
I am a sweet, witty, sexy, wonderful, merry, gentle happy creature who
occasionally punches people in the face for no reason. You simply whine.
I'm sorry, but it's true. Like having to point out to someone they have
bad breath or body odour, these things need be said, otherwise we all
suffer.
People take one look at me and moan, "Well, I don't want to be interesting
anyway. Who cares about that? Yeah, I just wanted to be serious and
silent and thoughtful, over here, in the corner, by myself. So there. I
guess I'm just different."
I try to be gentle and not point out that they're lying and that they're
stupid. Sometimes it just slips out. Oops! I'm human! So sue me.
I pity them, but what can I do? I am interesting, they are not. Other
than start some sort of school or charity, I'm at a loss. Oh well.
john adams
Nikolaus Maack wrote:
>3) People hate me because I am far more interesting than they are. For
>example, I am vastly more interesting than you. I don't mean this to be
>an insult, but a matter of fact. Who gets all the attention around here,
>me or you? Me. Who would people rather meet in real life to talk about
>art and other frivolties? I'll give you a hint -- it's not you. Who has
>more fun? Me. No wonder people get so upset, forced to bask in my glow
>all the time.
>
>
> I am a sweet, witty, sexy, wonderful, merry, gentle happy creature who
> occasionally punches people in the face for no reason. You simply whine.
> I'm sorry, but it's true. Like having to point out to someone they have
> bad breath or body odour, these things need be said, otherwise we all
> suffer.
>
I like myself. I love myself. Its good to be loved. I am more fond of me than
you are. I like myself! I have more fun on here than your grandmother. Usenet
sucks. Oh well.
john
Randall Wright
- Will you-all please recommend some good modern novels or novellas to
- me? They don't have to be surrealist though that would be a nice
- surprise.
-
- _A Clockwork Orange_ was the last tory of any length I could put up
- with past chapter one.
-
- I'm interested in knowing about books with intensely beautiful
- imagery.
-
- Thanks!
-
- cythera
-
-
- Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
- Before you buy.
The Island of the Day Before by Umberto Eco has been entertaining so far.
Randy
Here's a passage from chapter 19:
Afterwards they again headed northwest and found an island with quite
docile indigenes. In the two days and two nights they stayed there, the
Knight of Malta took to telling stories: he told them in a dialect not even
Roberto could understand, still less the natives, but the speaker assisted
himself by drawing in the sand, and he gesticulated like an actor, stirring
the enthusiasm of his audience, who hailed him with cries of "Tusitala,
Tusitala!" To Roberto the Knight said how fine he thought it would be to
end his days among those people, telling them all the myths of the
universe. "But is this Escondida?" Roberto asked. The Knight shook his
head.
He died in the wreck, Roberto reflected on the Daphne, and perhaps I
have found his Escondida, but I will never be able to narrate it to him, or
to anyone else. Perhaps this is why Roberto wrote to his Lady. To survive,
you must tell stories.
The Knight's last fantasy was heard one evening, only a few days and no
great distance from what would be the scene of the wreck. They were
skirting an archipelago, which the captain had decided not to approach,
inasmuch as Dr. Byrd seemed anxious to continue once again towards the
Equator. In the course of the voyage it had been evident to Roberto that
the captain's behavior was not that of the navigators he had heard of, who
took careful note of all new lands, perfecting their maps, drawing
cloud-shapes, tracing the line of shores, gathering native artifacts. . . .
The Amaryllis proceeded as if she were the traveling lair of an alchemist
bent only on his Opus Nigrum, indifferent to the great world opening before
her.
It was sunset, the play between clouds and sky against the shadow of the
island drew on one side what looked like emerald fishes drifting over the
peak. On the other there were crumpled balls of fire. Above, gray clouds.
Immediately afterwards, as a fiery sun disappeared behind the island, a
broad pink stripe was reflected on the clouds, bloodied along the lower
fringe. After a few seconds the fire behind the island spread, looming over
the ship. The sky was all a brazier with only a few cerulean threads. And
then blood everywhere as if some impenitents had been devoured by a school
of sharks.
"Perhaps it would be right to die now," the Knight of Malta said. "Are
you not seized by the desire to hang from the mouth of a cannon and slide
into the sea? It would be quick, and at that moment we would know
everything...."
"Yes, but at the instant we knew it, we would cease to know," Roberto said.
And the ship continued its voyage, moving through sepia seas.
Yes, but at the instant we knew it, we would cease to know," Roberto said.
And the ship continued its voyage, moving through sepia seas.
Sven
> In article <8ooohl$un$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, cythera <cyt...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> - Will you-all please recommend some good modern novels or novellas to
> - me? They don't have to be surrealist though that would be a nice
> - surprise.
> -
> - _A Clockwork Orange_ was the last tory of any length I could put up
> - with past chapter one.
> -
> - I'm interested in knowing about books with intensely beautiful
> - imagery.
> -
> - Thanks!
> -
> - cythera
> -
> -
> - Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> - Before you buy.
>
> The Island of the Day Before by Umberto Eco has been entertaining so far.
>
> Randy
>
[...]
The Island of the Day Before, I thought, was a wonderful, wonderful story,
filled with wonderful images in a wonderful setting, told (mostly) in
wonderful prose. However, the man fundamentally irritates me. It is
obvious from page 1 that he is utterly full of himself; his
self-indulgencies, I feel, mar what might have been an excellent (and much
thinner) book. His inclusion of phrases and poems in Latin, French, German
(not forgetting English, considering that the original was written in
Italian) without translation or explanation of any kind only shows his
desire to show off and his inability to have any kind of responsibility to
his readers.
Apart from that, it was great!
Dale Houstman
"Nikolaus Maack" <ac...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
news:8opb7g$oj0$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca...
>And the very notion of Gormenghast -- a huge
> sprawling, castle-maze city -- is a lovely one.
I agree: the novel is both depressing and marvelous, and precisely for this
reason, the evocation of this labyrinthic structure, which perfectly matches
the sprawl of the novel.
>
> Kafka, Dale claims, isn't surreal. I'd just like to say that Dale is
> misinformed. Kafka is very surreal. So there.
This - unfortunately - is the sort of lunkhead "debate" that makes you seem
so ordinary and thick most of the time. I went to lengths to explain why I
think Kafka (though a great writer) is not surrealist. And you reply like a
five year old with ADD.
>
dmh
brandon...@my-deja.com
> People hate me because I am far more interesting than they are.
For someone so interested in psychology you sure are in an awful lot of
denial. Keep running.
Nikolaus Maack
> I like myself. I love myself. Its good to be loved. I am more fond of me than
> you are. I like myself! I have more fun on here than your grandmother. Usenet
> sucks. Oh well.
After a good night's sleep and hearing your words, John, I've decided that
I love you more than I love myself. I will shower you with riches and
feed you poi out of a tuba one silver-spooned mouthful at a time. Let's
run off to Peru together and ride llamas until our thighs chaffe.
Nikolaus Maack
> Whatever.
That reminds me -- aren't you supposed to be ignoring me? Why on earth
are you talking to me this time? What the heck is wrong with you?
Doesn't Deja have a killfile system of some kind?
Dale said:
> "I would have a hard time justifying [Kafka] as even a semi-surrealist,
> since most of his work (except for his last unfinished novel "Amerika")
> is about being trapped
> and unable to act effectively".
Leading Cythera to ask:
> Get it?
Frankly, no. Why the heck should surrealism be determined by whether or
not a text promotes freedom? An author can express themselves in a
"surrealist" manner and be talking about how they feel trapped, small,
lost, buried. I have no problem with that. To say, "Ah, but that doesn't
promote the surrealist notion of freedom!" is silly. The author can be
free as they talk about lack of freedom.
I often feel you folks get too hung up on the "politics" of surrealism and
fail to recognize the complexity that is freedom of thought. If my head
is truly free, what's to stop me from talking about Gods and toasters and
prison and lemon pudding and Hell and "cunts"? Being trapped is just as
useful an image as being free. If Kafka wants to focus on being trapped
because he's rife with existential angst, goody for him.
Is there such a thing as a bad "thought" or a bad "word" or a bad "area of
exploration"? No. Everything is useful. Yet you lot spend all your time
rationally roping off areas, explaining why they are unacceptable or no
longer worth exploring or lead to nothing.
"Dali isn't a surrealist, Freud is a dead end, there's nothing of use in
that area known as 'the supernatural', Kafka isn't a surrealist, religion
is of no use..."
And on and on and on. I say anything is of use, anything can be tapped,
anything can lead to useful exploration. After all, anything that exists
or anything we can imagine is a part of US, a part of the world, a part
of the pattern, and therefore, a part of surrealism.
Kafka is a mix of surrealism and existentialism and he's a lot of fun to
read. Anyone who says Kafka isn't surreal has got some major hang-ups.
[imagery]
> If that were the criterion, the New Testament "Revelation of John"
> could be surrealist because it of its images. But surrealism isn't
> contained within an image.
Sure it is. Because it's impossible to know, in many cases, what thought
there was inside or behind the image. So yes, Revelations could be a
surreal text. John probably sat down and it came to him spontaneously.
He had a "vision" and he recorded it as honestly as he could. Voila!
Surrealism.
You may have noticed that my ideas on surrealism are inclusive while yours
are exclusive.
Randall Wright
<svenh.this...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
-
- The Island of the Day Before, I thought, was a wonderful, wonderful story,
- filled with wonderful images in a wonderful setting, told (mostly) in
- wonderful prose. However, the man fundamentally irritates me. It is
- obvious from page 1 that he is utterly full of himself; his
- self-indulgencies, I feel, mar what might have been an excellent (and much
- thinner) book. His inclusion of phrases and poems in Latin, French, German
- (not forgetting English, considering that the original was written in
- Italian) without translation or explanation of any kind only shows his
- desire to show off and his inability to have any kind of responsibility to
- his readers.
-
- Apart from that, it was great!
Hmm, I hadn't considered the author's personality. The book seems
intelligently written and I enjoyed it for that.
Randy
brandon...@my-deja.com
> Doesn't Deja have a killfile system of some kind?
No.
> I often feel you folks get too hung up on the "politics" of
> surrealism and fail to recognize the complexity that is freedom of
> thought.
I often feel you get too hung up on "bullshit" and fail to recognize
the conplexity that is surrealism.
> Is there such a thing as a bad "thought" or a bad "word" or a
> bad "area of exploration"? No.
I agree.
> Everything is useful.
I disagree.
> Yet you lot spend all your time rationally roping off areas,
> explaining why they are unacceptable or no longer worth exploring or
> lead to nothing.
Yet you spend all your time trying to rationally unrope areas.
> ... there's nothing of use in that area known as 'the
> supernatural' ...
Have you not read what David Hume has to say about the supernatural?
> I say anything is of use, anything can be tapped, anything can lead
> to useful exploration. After all, anything that exists or anything
> we can imagine is a part of US, a part of the world, a part of the
> pattern, and therefore, a part of surrealism.
Even socially conditioned morals and myths?
> Kafka is a mix of surrealism and existentialism and he's a lot of fun
> to read. Anyone who says Kafka isn't surreal has got some major hang-
> ups.
But first, how IS Kafka a Surrealist?
> Sure it is. Because it's impossible to know, in many cases, what
> thought there was inside or behind the image.
Letters from God.
> He had a "vision" and he recorded it as honestly as he could. Voila!
> Surrealism.
No. This is mysticism. Duh?
john adams
It isn't so easy to say definitively either way, i think.
It's not much different than saying that "rimbaud , or bosch, very well
could have been a surrealist", in looking into the past. Sure, it is
enshrouded in the process, and yet sometimes, oftentimes, evident in the
work.
Because kafka felt inflicted and it carried into his work as an expression
of his pain - a variety of the suffering we all endure to some degree,
being human, but at greater levels - is no sign, to me, he was in any way
against freedom. The truth is he felt trapped, and it being expressed in his
writing appears rather natural to me, and in some ways the theme seems to
speak for the "individual trapped" in a grave and hideous society. To make a
conscientous effort not to write about such things wouldn't exactly be a
step in the right direction either. However, not being a kafka expert, for
one, i won't declare him a surrealist, or proto-surrealist, or what have
you then.
john
kin...@hfwork1.tn.tudelft.nl
> Will you-all please recommend some good modern novels or novellas to
"The last world", Christopher Ransmeyer, (Paladin);
"The famished road", Ben Okri (Vintage);
"The clay machinegun" Victor Pelevin;
#Paul
brandon...@my-deja.com
> I'm interested in knowing about books with intensely beautiful
I almost forgot about Russell Edson:
The Autopsy
In a back room a man is performing an autopsy on an old raincoat.
His wife appears in the doorway with a candle and asks, how does it go?
Not now, not now, I'm just getting to the lining, he murmurs with
impatience.
I just wanted to know if you found any blood clots?
Blood clots?!
For my necklace...
Dale Houstman
"cythera" <cyt...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8p3cmv$23m$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <8p0dti$b20$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca>,
> ac...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Nikolaus Maack) wrote:
> > (brandon...@my-deja.com) writes:
> > > But what good is LOVE to a nihilist?
> >
> > I don't believe anything is true,
> > but I love you.
> > I don't believe in right or wrong,
> > but I love a good song.
> > I don't believe in truth or lies,
> > but I love the friction of a llama
> > against my thighs.
>
> Keep running.
>
But how is this possible? This particular runner ran out of short pier a
long time ago. At this point, he is merely floundering, and wondering why no
one will collaborate in saving his pathetic wet ass.
dmh
Dale Houstman
> In article <8p0pat$r9f$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca>,
> ac...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Nikolaus Maack) wrote:
> > "Dale Houstman" (dm...@citilink.com) writes:
>
> [...]
>
> > Your reply is further proof -- as though any were required -- that
> you not
> > only have no sense of humour or sense of play, but that you also have
> a
> > stick up your ass so large that it could be mistaken for a totem pole.
> >
> > Despite that, I still love you.
> >
> > Nik
> Translation: I am gay.
His love - of whatever quality (which somehow encompasses idiotic and
juvenile scatologica and name-calling) - shall remain unrequited. He would
like - of course in his dramatic sense of himself - to think I "hate" him,
but it isn't that personal: I just find him dull at this point, in every
sense of that word. He is irrelevant to the subject of the group, and wastes
entirely too much time, his own and others.
dmh
Nikolaus Maack
> Translation: I am gay.
I've sucked the best cocks of many generations
in the bathroom stalls of ancient civilizations.
Laughed with Nero as he fucked me and fiddled,
Sodomized Caeser as he was knife-wound riddled,
Deep-throated Socrates during one of his speeches,
Nuzzled Plato's balls as though they were peaches,
Did it with Shakespeare, fucked Francis Bacon,
Napoleon, Ramses, Washington, and Lincoln.
There isn't a prick throughout all of time
that hasn't been coated with my anal slime.
Reincarnation has been very good to me,
allowing me to be a part of sodomy history.
Nikolaus Maack
> He would
> like - of course in his dramatic sense of himself - to think I "hate" him,
You have no idea what I would like. Allow me to provide you with a list,
as Christmas is fast approaching.
1. I would like an autographed, hardcover copy of the novel "VALIS",
presented to me, in person, by the deceased author Philip K. Dick. I'd be
willing to go to his grave in Fort Morgan, Colorado to get it, if he'd be
willing to unearth himself for the occasion.
2. I would like to kiss William S. Burroughs on the mouth, with tongue, a
few weeks before he died, just to know what his withered flesh would feel
like. If Burroughs is unavilable, I will settle for a young, semi-sober
Dorothy Parker.
3. I would like to meet Marilyn Monroe with her natural hair colour,
dressed casually, without her hamming it up, in a quiet, secluded bar in
the old section of Montreal, where we will have nothing but coffee and
good conversation.
4. I would like a moment of pure enlightenment and bliss to wash over me
in a video arcade when I was fourteen years old, a roll of quarters in one
hand and a can of warm rootbeer in the other.
5. I would like to find Vincent Van Gogh's ear in my mailbox.
brandon...@my-deja.com
> Your reply is further proof -- as though any were required -- that
> you not only have no sense of humour or sense of play, but that you
> also have a stick up your ass so large that it could be mistaken for
> a totem pole.
Translation: I'm jealous.
Sven
> In article <8p4gar$ij6$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca>,
> ac...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Nikolaus Maack) wrote:
>> cythera (cyt...@my-deja.com) writes:
>>> Translation: I am gay.
>
> Translation: Can't find the closet door.
Gosh, this is all so witty and clever! Nik being a bit of a bastard? Let's
call him a poof!
There's a man who hangs out on my street corner spitting at passers by and
rubbing his groin who wants to congratulate you on your attitude.
Sven
> In article <B5DC3E4F.11C86%svenh.this...@blueyonder.co.uk>,
> Sven <svenh.this...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>> cythera wrote:
>>
>>> In article <8p4gar$ij6$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca>,
>>> ac...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Nikolaus Maack) wrote:
>>>> cythera (cyt...@my-deja.com) writes:
>>>>> Translation: I am gay.
>>>
>>> Translation: Can't find the closet door.
>>
>> Gosh, this is all so witty and clever!
>
>> Nik being a bit of a bastard? Let's call him a poof!
>
> Your lack of comprehension is showing.
Sure it's not your lack of wit?
brandon...@my-deja.com
it lacks the superstar quality of the others, and focus on childhood.
But please, how many hierarchies do you subscribe to a day? Take that
Pop culture out of your ass and find yourself. You're lost little boy,
the nickel arcade is that way --->
Nikolaus Maack wrote:
> 1. ... Philip K. Dick ...
> 2. ... William S. Burroughs ... Dorothy Parker ...
> 3. ... Marilyn Monroe ...
> 4. I would like a moment of pure enlightenment and bliss to wash
> over me in a video arcade when I was fourteen years old, a roll of
> quarters in one hand and a can of warm rootbeer in the other.
> 5. ... Vincent Van Gogh's ear ...
brandon...@my-deja.com
cythera <cyt...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> ___________________________
> ABC/CBS/NBC/CN Ndroid.
> ___________________________
>
> These moth-eaten mountains
> Wash their whitey airs in flirty whines
> And fashionable lard
> In front of applauding chumps in laudanum sauce!
> Keep on yuckin!
>
> cythera
Nikolaus Maack
> How impersonal your list is. Only #4 holds any true personal value for
> it lacks the superstar quality of the others, and focus on childhood.
> But please, how many hierarchies do you subscribe to a day? Take that
> Pop culture out of your ass and find yourself. You're lost little boy,
> the nickel arcade is that way --->
As usual, you can't tell when I'm playing or not. It figures.
I've always been fascinated with the notion of Slash fiction. That is,
take the gang from Scooby Doo, or Yogi and Booboo, or Spock and Kirk, and
throw them into a porn novel. Steal their lives. Piggy-back your story
on to their already fully-flushed characters. What if Captain Picard were
a homosexual Borg?
The same can be done with "real" people. Who is William S. Burroughs? I
don't know. I've met his persona in books and on videotape and on the
radio. But who is the real man? Is it even possible to know him?
Especially now that Burroughs is dead.
What fascinates me all the more is, even if I meet a person in "real life"
and sit and talk with them, I'm still getting a persona. They project out
an image of who they want to be. Even if they attempt to be genuine, show
me their "true self", it's still going to be a guarded image.
What if there is no such thing as a "real person"? It's an interesting
possibility.
Part of the reason I'm thinking about all of this is Tom Waits. His song
"Cemetary Polka" stuck in my head something fierce. The song is a list of
relatives who are all rather small and ugly, and the music is vaguely
circus-like and bleak. Some sample lyrics:
"Uncle Vernon, Uncle Vernon
independent as a hog on ice.
He's a bigshot down at the slaughterhouse.
He plays accordian for Mr. Weiss."
"Auntie Maime has gone insane,
she lives in the doorway
of an old hotel.
And the radio is playing opera.
And all she every says is
"Go to hell!""
What's interesting to me is that I can change the name Bob so much simply
by putting the word "Uncle" in front of it. Bob is just a name, where as
Uncle Bob immediately breeds a certain kind of familiarity. We know who
Uncle Bob is -- we all have an Uncle Bob -- where as Bob is just some guy.
My fake biography of Jackson Pollack that I posted a while ago pleased me
exactly in the same way. Stealing Pollack's life and making it "mine" is
loads of fun. For example:
Jackson Pollack grew up in Manitoba. His father was a dog-catcher and his
mother was a housewife who was an active member of the communist party.
On weekends, Pollack's parents took him skating at the local shopping
mall. One day, Pollack fell on his face, cracking open his skull. As he
staggered to his feet, he saw his own blood splattered on the ice before
him. Suddenly he had a vision of himself as a great artist.
This is a complete lie, of course, but most people know so little about
Jackson Pollack that they might actually believe it. In fact, this lie
probably makes a better story than whatever the truth happens to be.
That's another thing that has always fascinated me -- often a fabrication
of some kind "tells the truth" far better than whatever the actual events
happen to be.
Anyhow, I'm rambling, as usual, on the latest pieces of thought that
interest me.
Brandon Freels
"Nikolaus Maack" <ac...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
news:8p80ua$q3q$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca...
Nikolaus Maack
> As usually you run from reality, who you are, or anything remotely
> personal.
Idiot. Want to play a game? I'll tell you a personal story, and then you
tell me a personal story. We'll call it "Brandon Nik Ping Pong". What do
you say? I'll even go first.
I had a vasectomy last October. My left nut now has what is known as a
"sperm granuloma". That is, the tubes that would normally lead to the
testicle has been cut, so that I cannot impregnant my girlfriend. The
tube to my left testicle is clogged with a small, hard ball of sperm
build-up. It causes me small amounts of pain, on occasion, particularly
after sex.
There is a condition -- I forget the name -- where the sperm granuloma
leaks sperm into the rest of the testicular sack. The body treats the
sperm as a foreign entity and attacks it. I believe I am currently
suffering from this condition, as the size and shape of my granuloma has
altered. It is larger. And I have an occasional ache throughout my
testicles.
I have an appointment next week -- Tuesday -- to see the man who performed
my vasectomy. When I called and spoke to the receptionist, she told me to
go see my family doctor. I told her that I don't have a family doctor.
This left her vaguely baffled and she made me an appointment.
I suspect that I am going to have to go under the knife again, and have
the granuloma removed. This doesn't frighten me. When I had the original
vasectomy done, it was relatively painless. The most disturbing part was
when the doctor cauterized the tubes with the surgical equivalent of
soddering iron. Knowing someone is playing with my nuts, and smelling a
burning smell -- it's not pleasant.
I have had no major regrets since my vasectomy. At one point, I saw a
friend's young son, and felt a twinge of regret. I was never going to
have a son who I could corrupt and mould with my sick and twisted
personality. Then the boy started to cry and made a nuisance of himself,
and I felt immense satisfaction. This will never happen to me -- being
saddled with an irritating child.
Not unless I count my interactions with you, Brandon.
Nikolaus Maack
> Can't imagine why not, this is the very stuff of your "prose poetry",
> except that this time you'll be on the receiving end.
A scalpel in the balls is not sexually arousing unless there are lit
candles, sexy underwear, and taunting voices.
"Want me to fix your balls, huh, bitch? Beg me for it, pussy boy. Crawl
for me."
And so on.
But on a serious note, and an almost completely unrelated topic...
There are men and women out there who enjoy inflicting pain. There are
men and women out there who enjoy receiving pain. Pleasure and pain are
not that far apart at all. And yes, all of this does tie into feminism,
in a way. I know many a woman who harbors rape fantasies -- nothing like
real rape, of course -- and feels guilty about it because "good liberated
women aren't supposed to feel that way."
Feminism, like surrealism, promotes freedom -- but like all things that
promote freedom, people can give you a hard time if you use your new found
freedom to make the "wrong" choices.
> It seems ironic after all your sadistic fantasties that you might be
> even slightly wanting sympathy here; nonetheless you have mine, and I
> hope it turns out okay.
I wasn't looking for sympathy -- just telling a personal story about my
scrotum. But, seriously, thanks all the same.
brandon...@my-deja.com
> Idiot. Want to play a game? I'll tell you a personal story, and
> then you tell me a personal story.
Oh, its the give-take game? No, Nik, I don't think so. Maybe if it was
Dale, Cythera, or Barrett giving, but not you. You came to
alt.surrealism proclaiming your personalism and honesty, but at every
turn you are wearing a sign over your crotch that reads: "just
kidding." You have never even told us your girlfriends name. She must
not mean that much to you. And this vasectomy stories is typical of
your mundane personalism. I mean, shouldn't a personalist approach
truth in a kamikaze fashion by being willing to face truth regardless
of what they will recieve in return? If you only are honest when you
are "rewarded" what does that say about you, and your personalism?
To be straight forward with you Nik, I think Barrett said it right when
he said you will use anything as long as it supports what you're
saying "at that moment." It shouldn't have taken me countless amounts
of badgering to get a "confession" out of you. Any true "personalist"
would be spouting out these stories without being badgered. And your
insistence that I "give" you something in return only exposes your lack
of love and respect for honesty, personalism, and confession.
Nikolaus Maack
call Brandonese.]
(brandon...@my-deja.com) writes:
> Oh, its the give-take game? No, Nik, I don't think so.
I think it's pretty safe to assume that anything that comes after these
two sentences is going to be rationalizing bullshit. I'm a coward?
You're the fucking coward, Brandon. I'm running? I don't think so,
fuckface. Use whatever excuse you've got, chump, but in the end it's
clear which one of us made the grade, and which one of us is going to be
held over another year.
At least we've established that I'm more than willing to talk about my
personal life. I think that means I win, Brandon, and you have to suck my
cock. On your knees, bitch. Do a good job and I might give you a
shiny quarter.
> You have never even told us your girlfriends name.
Michelle Tribe -- mrt...@freenet.carleton.ca. She works for the Ottawa
Humane Society. I believe I have mentioned her many a time. I also
believe I have in fact mentioned her name. Want her phone number too?
What does this prove?
> She must
> not mean that much to you.
Let me get this straight -- because I haven't mentioned her name to you,
it means that I don't love her? I don't even know if you HAVE a wife or a
girlfriend, Brandon. By your logic, that means you must beat your woman
daily.
> And this vasectomy stories is typical of
> your mundane personalism.
More than you're willing to give, you pathetic coward. Run, run, run,
Brandon. Moron. Hypocrite.
> Any true "personalist"
> would be spouting out these stories without being badgered.
Imbecile. You must have me in your killfile every second day. I'm
constantly talking about what's going on in my life. You must be fucking
BLIND.
You know what city I live, you know what I do for a living, you know how
old I am, you know I have a girlfriend, you know I put onions around the
city, dollheads, taped up some of my own art, I have a webpage with my
stuff on it, crucified a teddybear and pissed off my roommates, and you
know I've had my balls fondled with a scalpel, etc, etc.
What do we get from you?
"Oh, I'm not ready to talk about my personal life with you, Nik! You're
too stinky and bad!"
Sounds to me like somebody's got a yellow stripe down his back the size of
Texas.
> And your
> insistence that I "give" you something in return only exposes your lack
> of love and respect for honesty, personalism, and confession.
Your inability to "give" something personal indicates that you're a
fucking coward. I'm the one that's running, Brandon? Hypocrite
loser. It's clear which one of us has his jogging shoes on. Butthead.
Any response to this that doesn't include an apology and a listing of your
wife/girlfriend/boyfriend's vital stastics will be a clear indication that
you're even more of a chickenshit than I thought. Wimp.
[This concludes our demonstration of Brandonese. For more information,
contact your local Council of Bullying Cretins. Thank you.]
brandon...@my-deja.com
> I'm running? I don't think so, fuckface.
HA!
> Use whatever excuse you've got, chump, but in the end it's clear
> which one of us made the grade, and which one of us is going to be
> held over another year.
I don't get the joke? I graduated. With honors!
> At least we've established that I'm more than willing to talk about my
> personal life. I think that means I win, Brandon, and you have to
> suck my cock. On your knees, bitch. Do a good job and I might give
> you a shiny quarter.
You "win"? What do you think this is, WWF? I was just holding you up to
your word, that your a personalist. Unfortunately you rarely flash us
with any of your personal stories which makes me wonder if you really
believe what you say.
> Let me get this straight -- because I haven't mentioned her name to
> you, it means that I don't love her? I don't even know if you HAVE a
> wife or a girlfriend, Brandon. By your logic, that means you must
> beat your woman daily.
"Let me get this straight --- because I don't post my art or poems that
means I don't have any?" (Remember that? Your starting to sound like
me ... maybe its because I'm mimicing you? Think about it).
> More than you're willing to give, you pathetic coward. Run, run, run,
> Brandon. Moron. Hypocrite ... Imbecile.
This is a great discussion. We're really getting somewhere.
> You must have me in your killfile every second day.
Only once, about two years ago. Deja doesn't have killfile. Duh? I just
told everybody that about a week ago. Maybe your not reading.
> I'm constantly talking about what's going on in my life. You must be
> fucking BLIND.
I must be. All I know about you is that you like to manipulate people,
twist things around to support your own theories, and talk shit.
Hmm ... very personal.
> What do we get from you?
I've talked about personal things from time to time. I've made it no
secret in posts to Dale, Barrett, and Cythera where I live. I make the
comments where they're neccessary. But Nik, I never proclaimed myself a
personalist. You have, and now you have the responsibility of
fullfilling that statement.
> Your inability to "give" something personal indicates that you're a
> fucking coward. I'm the one that's running, Brandon? Hypocrite
> loser. It's clear which one of us has his jogging shoes on.
> Butthead.
Oh, how wonderful these conversations with Nik can be.
> Any response to this that doesn't include an apology and a listing of
> your wife/girlfriend/boyfriend's vital stastics will be a clear
> indication that you're even more of a chickenshit than I thought.
> Wimp.
What did you think of my book? I wrote it when I was 19, and it was
published when I was 20. That was 1996. How old does that make me? I've
offered this info before (even recently) and if you can't figure this
one out then you're on your own.
http://homestead.deja.com/user.brandon_freels/index.html
> [This concludes our demonstration of Brandonese. For more
> information, contact your local Council of Bullying Cretins ... ]
Now you have something against people from Crete? Will the ignorance
ever end?
brandon...@my-deja.com
> I wasn't looking for sympathy -- just telling a personal story about
> my scrotum. But, seriously, thanks all the same.
I thought you accidentally hide your scrotum in a telephone booth?
Sven
>> [This concludes our demonstration of Brandonese. For more
>> information, contact your local Council of Bullying Cretins ... ]
>
> Now you have something against people from Crete? Will the ignorance
> ever end?
Hee!
I'm not getting involved in this discussion, but I'd just like to say that
"cretin" actually originates from "Christian". It was used as a pitying
term to refer to mentally retarded or physically deformed people.
But nowadays it just means an idiot.
brandon...@my-deja.com
mean just about whatever you want it to mean. When I use the word
cretin I am obviously talking about "three-toed sloths." I'm not
speaking for Cythera but I think when she uses the word it
means "hijacked apples". Of course we all know that when Dale uses the
word he strictly means "saucy underpants" and Barrett only uses the
word when he is talking about "elephants in love with test-tubes."
Sven wrote:
> I'm not getting involved in this discussion, but I'd just like to say
> that "cretin" actually originates from "Christian". It was used as a
> pitying term to refer to mentally retarded or physically deformed
> people.
john adams
Parry wrote in message <39B036...@zxOMITmail.com>...
>One living novelist whose name springs to mind is Rikki Ducornet. Not
>long deceased are Angela Carter and W.S. Burroughs. Kenneth Patchen’s
>novels also have rich imagery. A couple of other favorites are Kafka and
>Dashiell Hammett.
>
>-- Parry
Patchen was involved with the English surrealists, is that correct?
john
Dale Houstman
"john adams" <johnqa...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:RSju5.137878$6y5.90...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com...
stop him from being involved with the British mob. His work hasn't ever done
much for me: for the most part the Beat take on surrealism/Rimbaud etc.
always seemed lunk-footed and lacking in the marvelous for me. Also, an
awful lot of them tended to segue into the mystical. But what do I know? In
the same vein there is Philip Lamantia, whose work (superficially at least)
has a lot more in common with the surrealists, but who also lapsed painfully
into mysticism. Americans!
dmh
brandon...@my-deja.com
> But what do I know? In the same vein there is Philip Lamantia, whose
> work (superficially at least) has a lot more in common with the
> surrealists, but who also lapsed painfully into mysticism. Americans!
I like his early stuff (Touch of the Marvelous, The Blood of the Air)
best.
brandon...@my-deja.com
> One living novelist whose name springs to mind is Rikki Ducornet.
I haven't read any of her stuff. Any you recommend? Is she still
involved with the Chicago Group?
> Kenneth Patchen’s novels also have rich imagery.
Same with Ken. Where should I start with him?
john adams
Dale Houstman wrote in message
<39b9ffb9$1$28247$65a9...@news.citilink.com>...
That's exactly right, i thought he was the HEAD of the british mafia - its
funny that he operated then from all the way out in SF (must have prefered
overseeing the imported shipments of plaid tadpoles himself). But the
greatest mystery was the sound of flapping sandwich bags in the wind his
children used to mimmick with their mystical lips. Parisians!
john
Parry
>
> parry wrote:
> > One living novelist whose name springs to mind is Rikki Ducornet.
>
> I haven't read any of her stuff. Any you recommend? Is she still
> involved with the Chicago Group?
I don’t know her connection with Chicago. She’s lived around the world
and the last I heard she had a long-term gig in Colorado. The novels I’m
familiar with are “The Stain,” “Phosphor in Dreamland,” and “The Jade
Cabinet.” “The Jade Cabinet” would be a good starter.
> > Kenneth Patchen’s novels also have rich imagery.
>
> Same with Ken. Where should I start with him?
I liked his first couple of novels best, “Journal of Albion Moonlight”
(1941) and “Memoirs of a Shy Pornographer” (1945). The first is probably
his best known work, the second is looser and more fun. Unfortunately, I
can’t find my copies so I can’t quote any snazzy passages. A third
novel, “Sleepers Awake” (1946), was more experimental and flabbier,
trailing off into concrete poetry at the drop of a font.
He also has a few other short text pieces but mostly he wrote an
abundance of poems which are, to me anyway, of less interest.
-- Parry
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Parry
>
> "john adams" <johnqa...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:RSju5.137878$6y5.90...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com...
> >
> He's a native of San Francisco isn't he? Not that this would necessarily
> stop him from being involved with the British mob. His work hasn't ever done
> much for me: for the most part the Beat take on surrealism/Rimbaud etc.
> always seemed lunk-footed and lacking in the marvelous for me.
I don’t know much of his life story (though a biography was recently
published), but he was definitely American. The only tenuous connection
with the English I can think of is that he was part of the brief
international FIARI grouping. At least some of his stuff looks Beat, but
-- being born in 1911 and first published in 1932 -- he easily pre-dates
the Beats. He can’t be bound to any particular style.
> Also, an
> awful lot of them tended to segue into the mystical. But what do I know? In
> the same vein there is Philip Lamantia, whose work (superficially at least)
> has a lot more in common with the surrealists, but who also lapsed painfully
> into mysticism. Americans!
I thought he was kidding with the mysticism -- for instance, in the
overblown parts of “Memoirs of a Shy Pornographer.” Then again, in his
poetry he was often found rambling about something inconsequential.
Maybe this is part of the comparison with Blake. He’s normal or nuts
depending on which side of the bed he fell out.
Here’s an interesting blurb on Patchen culled from a web page:
“Throughout his life he kept his commitment to pacifism, anarchism, and
the need for meaningful rebellion against oppression of all sorts, from
literary to political. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why he was
excluded from the concrete poetry anthologies of the late 60s that have
straight-jacketed visual poetry since, and why his largest readership is
among beats and neo-beats. Like his predecessor William Blake, he fully
realized the dangers of repression and the need to express rage in a
coherent form. Like his successor bpNichol, he knew how to tap the
child-elements in his psyche, those uncorrupted areas that demand both
justice and creativity -- and as with Nichol this has lead careless
readers to think of him as childlike, without noticing the darkness of
the world with which both poets are familiar and against which they
worked. Patchen had a unique ability to simultaneously express rage,
humor, and compassion, and to work these into a thoroughly humanized
personal and social sense of life's responsibilities, joys, and
potentials.”
Parry
>
> In article <39B036...@zxOMITmail.com>,
> pa...@zxOMITmail.com wrote:
> > cythera wrote:
>
> > > I'm interested in knowing about books with intensely beautiful
> > > imagery.
> >
> > One living novelist whose name springs to mind is Rikki Ducornet.
>
> surname is pronounced du' cor NAY.
>
> And thank you. I remember seeing the name on the Chicago Surrealist
> Group's site, which I consider excellent.
>
> Anyone wishing to learn about surrealism in the U.S.A. might want to
> read their pages. You can go to them directly or through
> brittanica.com. Keyword "surrealism".
>
> > Not long deceased are Angela Carter and W.S. Burroughs.
>
> Chamber_. And thank you for reminding me of her.
> From that book I recommend "Tiger's Bride", a retelling of "Beauty
> and the Beast". It's one of the most startling and intensely romantic
> stories I've ever read.
My wife has read more of Carter than I have and highly recommends “Wise
Children.” I mentioned Burroughs because I recall you saying you still
hadn’t gotten around to him. “Naked Lunch” would be the starting point.
Another interesting novelist (and one well-known to the surrealists) was
Raymond Roussel. One writer I’ve been meaning to read -- once I get
around to filling out an interlibrary loan form -- is Bachelard. You
certainly have enough suggestions to gnaw on for a while. And I imagine
you’ll be digesting Maldoror for a bit before moving on.
Dale Houstman
"Parry" <pa...@zxOMITmail.com> wrote in message
news:39BAF5...@zxOMITmail.com...
> Dale Houstman wrote:
> >
> > "john adams" <johnqa...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:RSju5.137878$6y5.90...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com...
> > > Patchen was involved with the English surrealists, is that correct?
> > >
> > He's a native of San Francisco isn't he? Not that this would necessarily
> > stop him from being involved with the British mob. His work hasn't ever
done
> > much for me: for the most part the Beat take on surrealism/Rimbaud etc.
> > always seemed lunk-footed and lacking in the marvelous for me.
>
> I don't know much of his life story (though a biography was recently
> published), but he was definitely American. The only tenuous connection
> with the English I can think of is that he was part of the brief
> international FIARI grouping. At least some of his stuff looks Beat, but
> -- being born in 1911 and first published in 1932 -- he easily pre-dates
> the Beats. He can't be bound to any particular style.
I think I "came at him" via readings about the Beats, so that's how I
remember him. All I can definitely recall of his work is seeing one of his
"picture poem" books, which I found only mildly intriguing.
>
> > Also, an
> > awful lot of them tended to segue into the mystical. But what do I know?
In
> > the same vein there is Philip Lamantia, whose work (superficially at
least)
> > has a lot more in common with the surrealists, but who also lapsed
painfully
> > into mysticism. Americans!
>
> I thought he was kidding with the mysticism -- for instance, in the
> overblown parts of "Memoirs of a Shy Pornographer." Then again, in his
> poetry he was often found rambling about something inconsequential.
> Maybe this is part of the comparison with Blake. He's normal or nuts
> depending on which side of the bed he fell out.
I'm normally nuts.
Thanks for the info on Patchen. I plan to look into him, if only to be ready
to discuss him if he pops up again!
dmh
john adams
Dale Houstman wrote in message
I have a few of his poems in a book of surrealist poetry in english.
Here is one:
'In the footsteps of the walking air'
In the footsteps of the walking air
Sky's prophetic chickens weave their cloth of awe
And hillsides lift green wings in somber journeying.
Night in his soft haste bumps on the shoulders of the abyss
And a single drop of dark blood covers the earth.
Now is the China of the spirit at walking
In my reaches.
A sable organ sounds in my gathered will
And love's inscrutable skeleton sings.
My seeing moves under a vegetable shroud.
And dead forests stand where once Mary Stood.
Sullen stone dogs wait in the groves of water...
-Though the wanderer drown, his welfare is as a fire
That burns at the bottom of the sea, warming
Uknown roads for sleep to walk upon.
john