Is NLP Dangerous?
Nancy Ramirez
Just caught a glimpse of the recent thread on NLP.
I had a negative experience, I'd like to share.
I'd read an extensive article in the Sunday paper
about a con-artist who took women for all they had.
He'd learned NLP and was expert at manipulating
people.
Since I didn't want to fall victim to a manipulator
like that, I enrolled in an adult education course
teaching NLP.
The instructor had horrid ego problems. He'd been
very overweight all his life, had a stomach operation,
and no one would know he once had a huge body.
The scars from his younger years (cruel peers, etc.)
just stuck with this guy, and he obviously wanted a
way to get even with the 'world'. He was also into
hypnosis and very impressed by great hypnotists.
The class had about 45 people in the beginning. At
the end it was 6-7. I stayed only because I wanted
to learn everything this guy did.
It`s hard to describe. But, the big thing was eye
contact. Once he had that, you were his victim.
Again and again, he'd victimize people in the
audience, by locking them in with that eye contact
and then basically mocking them by copying their
body posture. It was humiliating.
He never got me once, not even when he phoned me
at home (yes it can work on the phone, too). In
class I never allowed eye contact with him. Not
until the last class, that is.
I got there late, and had to sit facing him. While
speaking, he suddenly sat down directly across from
me which caused me to look at him. He immediately
went into a body posture exactly matching mine.
And he held it, while my brain was freaking out
trying to figure out what was going on.
If I'd been able to break the eye contact, it would
not have worked. But, it happened so fast that he
had me confused. As my face turned a painful red
in horrible embarrassment, he stood up, smiled,
and nodded at me saying, "Yes." It was akin to
rape. I'd been violated.
Maybe you can imagine my rage when I left that
class, maybe not. But, I know enough now to
recognize it when I see it.
This was NLP being used in a damaging context.
I might also add, that Richard Bandler, the father
of this stuff, ended up arrested in Santa Cruz
some years back after the murder of a prostitute
in his apartment. Drugs were involved.
I do believe NLP can be used in positive ways,
like neutral mediators trying to settle cases
out of court. But, it doesn't hurt to be familiar
with both sides of the coin.
Nancy
Bear Giles
NLP to get his revenge, but it if wasn't NLP it would have been
something else.
Bear Giles
be...@fsl.noaa.gov
Nancy Ramirez
Gosh, alt.support is a great group! I was ready to post
an apology for taking up bandwidth on the NLP topic. Too
late I realized I had been reading it in alt.self-improve
and not alt.support.
However, I had several supportive e-mails from the group
amd am happy it was of interest!
NLP is neuro-linquistic programming. It's mean't to be
a way of quickly establishing 'rapport' with another
individual, so they feel at ease and trust you.
2 guys developed it (Bandler is the only name I remember)
after studying techniques of many psychologists and
hypnotists.
It spread across the country and became a popular seminar
in the sales and marketing fields.
Basically, you learn to watch the other person's eyes,
body posture, breathing, skin color, etc. The body
posture, and breathing you try to match (and of course
they're unaware). The eye contact is important. Where
their eyes look has various meanings (cast upward means
trying to remember something and looking for a picture in
their memory). Noticing tenseness in muscles of hands,
jaws and change in skin color around ears in neck (blushing)
are more observations taught.
I'd like to refer readers to the alt.self-improve news
group for listings of books. Hopefully they're still
posted.
I've only got 2 books, and will post the names tomorrow.
Again, I'd like to say that NLP can be used in positive
ways when practiced by caring people.
Thanks for the support!
Nancy
Nancy Ramirez
Since I only took one brief course in NLP, and read 2 books,
my overall knowledge is limited. The book I really enjoyed
was "Influencing With Integrity" by Genie Z. Laborde. She
came across as sincere and committed to maintaining integrity
when negotiating. She also did the illustrating.
On the other hand, I had a strong negative reaction to the
book by Richard Bandler and John Grider - "Frogs Into Princes".
I'd post 2 paragraphs (ch 1, pg 62) as an example, but don't
believe it's allowed without permission.
Basically, Bandler is recounting his experience with a room
full of 'stuffy psychologists' he was addressing. He tells
them a story about a barnyard full of turkey's with someone
in the middle saying, "You turkeys!"
He seems amused that he can get away with insulting a room
full of psychologists without them understanding what was
going on. He was calling them all turkeys.
I don't admire this.
The article I read about Bandler's arrest happened sometime
after I read this book. I believe Grinder and Bandler had
a falling out and had quit doing their seminars. There was
a story told in the article about a staff meeting. I dis-
tinctly remember the story, but am not sure if it was, in
fact, Bandler.
The individual came into the staff meeting with a gun in
his pocket. Half way through, he pulled it out and walked
around the room talking and waving it around. Everyone
totally froze. He'd then laugh and put it away, only to
bring it out again a few more times doing the same thing.
It was an incredible mind game. Alternately terrifying
everyone that he would shoot, and then relieving them
that it was only a joke. The bizarre thing was that no
one got up and left.
I'd be interested to know what happened to Bandler. I
never heard the outcome of his trial. I couldn't imagine
this man who'd made himself expert at manipulating people,
being able to trust anyone! How could he?
Nancy
Richard Powers
While looking for books on UNIX, I noticed that (From Frogs to Princes?) a
book on NLP was in the computer section. Someone must have seen the
"Programming" part & threw it in there! :-)
Maybe you had to be there. I thought it was funny.
--
rpo...@panix.com _Short & Sweet!_ (Not me! My .sig!)
cra...@cubldr.colorado.edu
>
> NLP is neuro-linquistic programming. It's mean't to be
> a way of quickly establishing 'rapport' with another
> individual, so they feel at ease and trust you.
It is also, as I'm sure you realize, a form of hypnotism. Or in some
cases of self-hypnotism.
>
> Again, I'd like to say that NLP can be used in positive
> ways when practiced by caring people.
>
> Thanks for the support!
>
> Nancy
So can handguns. I am not rabidly against NLP -- I even have a couple of
good friends who practice it -- but in the one weekend seminar I did, I
saw exactly what you saw by your account. That is, that a negative and
uncaring person can use this technique for nefarious purposes.
Oddly enough, it seemed the creeps at my seminar were the ones who learned
the techniques the quickest and were able to use them the best. I suppose
that says something about their lust for power.
I would join you in at least cautioning anyone about getting into NLP
that it CAN be used in a most harmful way. We don't yet know all there
is to know about hypnotism, not even the most highly-qualified and morally
impeccable practitioners know. To put a tool like that into the hands of
bad people is, in my opinion, exceedingly unwise.
Regards, Lou
Gary Murphy
I'd like to refer readers to the alt.self-improve news
group for listings of books. Hopefully they're still
posted.
I've only got 2 books, and will post the names tomorrow.
Again, I'd like to say that NLP can be used in positive
ways when practiced by caring people.
Thanks Nancy, and I will save you the trouble of posting all the
references as I just happen to have archived the rather extensive list
that recently appeared in sci.psychology. I would also like to add that
NLP is a very effective tool, but like any other tool, it _can_ be used
any way you like; as William S. Burroughs wrote, "Anyone who can lift a
frying pan owns Death", and I know from bitter experience that the
powerful elements in every therapy are dangerous tools, something most
therapists will not warn you of (6% chance of lasting deterioration
directly attributable to therapy). NLP only systematized this
knowledge, and while other therapists will all claim therapy should go
on for years until a sudden 'breakthrough', Bandler and Grinder claim
this is just when the therapist accidentally did something right. It
was exactly the 'trust-feeling' reinforcement and the leading-questions
inadvertently applied by my spouse's therapists that robbed my children
of their mother for nearly a year, and now, under the guidance of a
trained NLP practitioner, herself guided by the strong moral direction
of Constructive Living (a.k.a. Moritist/Naikan teaching), which has
begun to restore some semblance of family life to us in only a few
weeks. As this woman, a buddhist nun by profession, explains it, CL is
the medicine to affect a cure, NLP is the syringe and scalpul, but
Mindfulness, awareness of mind-body without taint of expectations, is
the goal state.
Anyway, enough of my banter. If anyone is interested, I can post a
reading list on Constructive Living, although in a nutshell, you can
start with any of the books by David K. Reynolds. In the meantime, here
is the (rather lengthy) booklist on NLP for those with summer hours to
spend reading :-) ...
Robert Burbank offered the following references on neuro-linguistic
programming (NLP):
By Richard Bandler and John Grinder:
"Changing with Families" (with Virginia Satir), 1976
"Frogs into Princes: Neuro-linguistic Programming", 1979
"Patterns of the Hypnotic Techniques of Milton H. Erickson"
Volumes I and II, 1975
"The Structure of Magic: a Book about Language and Therapy"
Volumes I and II, 1975
"Reframing: Neuro-linguistic Programming and the
Transformation of Meaning", 1982
"Trance-formations: Neuro-linguistic Programming and the
Structure of Hypnosis", 1981
By other authors:
"Solutions" by Leslie Cameron-Bandler
"The Power of Business Rapport" by Michael Brooks
"A Quick Reference Guide to Using Early Recollections in
Treating Personality Disorders" by Michael Meier
I have found "Frogs into Princes" for sale locally and I
would recommend it as an excellent introduction to and
overview of NLP. "Influencing with Integrity" by Genie
Laborde is a good introduction to NLP as applied to business
situations.
NLP Comprehensive, 2897 Valmont Rd, Boulder CO 80301, (303 442-1102, 800
233-1657) offers a selection of NLP books, audiotapes, and videotapes.
Connirae and Steve Andreas, founders of NLP Comprehensive, edited
several of the Bandler/Grinder books and have written several more.
Their catalog is an outstanding resource in itself and is an informal
way to get acquainted with the versatility of NLP techniques.
Sandy Wilkman (wil...@med.unc.edu) adds the following ...
best authors on the subject, IMHO, are not authors on the subject
at all, but rather the authors of the original works that NLP is
based on:
On Ericksonian hypnosis: try Milton Erickson, Ernest Rossi,
Steven Gilligan, the Lanktons or Jeffrey Zeig.
Travis Gee (tg...@alfred.carleton.ca) also adds ..
In the spirit of science and balanced perspective, I hasten to add:
Gibson, H.B. (1984). Book review: _The Collected Papers of Milton
Erickson, vols I and II_ . in _International Journal of Clinical
and Experimental Hypnosis_, 32, 254-256.
Gumm, W.B., Walker, M.K., & Day, H.D. (1982). Neurolinguistic
programming: method or myth? _Journal of Counselling Psychology_,
29, 327-330.
Owens, L.F. (1977) An investigation of eye movements and
representational systems. _Dissertation Abstracts International_, 38,
4992B.
Poffel, S. & Cross, H. (1985). Neurolinguistic programming: a test of
the eye-movement hypothesis. _Perceptual and Motor Skills_, 61, 1262.
Sharpley, Christopher (1984a). Predicate matching in NLP: a review of
research on the preferred representational system. _Journal of
Counselling Psychology_, 31, 238-248.
Thomason, T., Arbuckle, T. & Cady, D. (1980). Test of the eye-movement
hypothesis of Neurolinguistic Programming. _Perceptual and Motor
Skills_, 51, 230.
wil...@med.unc.edu (Alice Wilkman) writes:
I recommend "Heart of the Mind", by the Andreases as my choice as best
introduction and survey of NLP.
From Dave Barton
d...@hudson.wash.inmet.com
"Unlimited Power" by Anthony Robbins is probably the best selling
introduction. I have not read it in detail; however, I have skimmed
it in a bookstore. I do not recommend it.
From: ohum...@spectra.com (Kawika Ohumukini)
Unlimited Power is a very nice introduction to NLP and provides good
information about rapport. It could have been in more depth in the
area of modeling but I have read it and it is very enlightening.
Awaken The Giant Within is the real kicker. If you want to learn
NLP or more correctly NAC (Neuro-Associative Conditioning) this is
the book. I have read it also and it can make real changes. I also
recommend Trance-Formations from Bandler & Grinder if you want to
elicit someones strategies and want to help them determine what they
want to accomplish.
--
Gary Lawrence Murphy - Gary....@software.mitel.COM - (613) 592-2122 x3709
Your self is shrinking while your world is growing