6 months and still in pain
Doug
since the vas. My pain averages .5 on a 1-10 scale and bumps up to about a
2.5 for a few days every few weeks. Seems like I have more and more .5 days
lately but bottom line I still have pain. Seems like on the bad days I feel
pressure I think my body is in a production phase and of course with a
closed end it has no where to go. This is getting aggravating just waiting
for it to maybe go away. I am strongly considering getting it converted to
an open-end vas that my Dr will do and INS will cover. But the Dr. clams
that I will have a much higher chance of having sperm form balls at the end
of the open vas and that will cause me pain he claims if it happens. So he
says I may trade one pain for another. Then again maybe just waiting a year
to give it more then enough time and then getting a full reversal if I am
still having pain is best. I still don't know what is the right thing to do.
If the pain level were to settle at .5 and stay there maybe just living the
rest of my life with that level of pain is best. After all more surgery
could leave me with pain for other reasons. But as anyone that has had this
knows having any pain in your balls is no fun at all. Most stories I have
read about people having a reversal for pain they were in I think more pain
then me and were never 100% pain free even after the reversal just greatly
improved. Problem is my pain not killing me just aggravating me so I wonder
if having a reversal or open end would do any improvement. Then again since
the pain is low it may resolve it 100% but then you have the chance of any
surgery leaving you with some pain. What to do I just don't know.
Doug
Luan
I am taking testosterone since late April. I have had a reduction of
pain/discomfort. Never totally gone and the wonderful release with orgasm
is absent and replaced with discomfort that can be a little painful (I
finally have one girlfriend however, she is dealing with her mother being
near death. She is not often "available".) That "Vasectomy will not
(should not) affect a mans sex life" remains the biggest lie ever told to
me. I hope to inform as many people as possible that this is an untrue
statement. Why don't the promoters of vas simply say, "Vasectomy does not
affect the sex life of the men who report they cannot tell the difference
in sexual activity after vasectomy." (Typical double talk used by
promoters and politicians) Why don't they truthfully say, " The pleasure
of sex is destroyed or greatly dimished by vasectomy for some men. (and
then admit that this could be as many as 10%)" The wife of one friend
who has had PVPS for 11 years told me something we must consider. She
said the "waiting game" which involves taking antibotics and many
medications such as anti-inflamitoriy drugs over and over again as well as
suggesting we simply wait for things to get better has little to do with
medicine but rather a lot to do with the legal considerations. To file a
civil law suit we must do it with-in a 2 year time limit. If the medical
people can stall for that much time they are free. I know this well from
an incident back in 1988 where I shot a man who lied to me over a $25
dollar disagreement. He was lucky and lived. I was cleared on the
criminal side of the law but I had to wait for the 2 years to breathe easy
again. Maybe that tells you how well I like liers and how some of my
thoughts run toward the medical people not disclosing the most important
fact concerning vasectomy! What we are up against here is an industry
made up of vasectomy and vasectomy reversal. There is BIG money in
reversal surgery. If the complete truth ever gets out concerning the
complication rates of PVPS, both vasectomy and the reversal business will
basically end. Doctors MUST keep doing vasectomy to preserve this huge
reversal business. Much better methods of male BC are near to reality but
we may never see them here due to the acceptance of this terrible crude
method already in use. Men need a completely reversible method and one
not involving surgery and the cutting of nerves and blood supply to sexual
organs. I find it totally unacceptable that doctors do vasectomy not
knowing what the outcome will be but knowing that some rather big
percentage (3% to 9% according to a Doctor who specializes in PVPS
treatment)) will suffer long term pain and dergraded lives. They make no
effort to screen out poor outcomes to this "one size fits all" surgery.
EVERY MAN who has PVPS and was not informed of this possibility beforehand
SHOULD SUE the doctor who did this to him! I will probably take
testosterone for the 6 months suggested and then after seeing what the
result is I will decide what to do next. I think reversal is likely the
best hope for me but I am not sure yet. I don't like the way sex is now
and if pain returns to the pre testosterone treatment levels I have no
choice but to do something. As you may recall I had a reversal attempted
on 26 april on right side but it failed as the destruction of my organs
was already too far along to do a simple vas to vas connection. This pain
we feel is caused by destruction in progress. Waiting is the wrong thing
to do if you wish anything near complete recovery. If you hope to end
with a partly NORMAL life and maybe not take any more risks with surgery,
if you are not too concerned that your good sex is over forever, then
waiting is the obvious thing to do. Just remember, those who want you to
wait might have other than medical motivation for telling you this. The
only way unethical practices like not informing men of the the worst
complication - PVPS - prior to surgery will end is for men to sue and make
this nasty practice too expensive for the doctors. I have another method
that will surely work but should not be used except in the last resort. I
will never forget how effective 158 grains of lead traveling at 2,000 feet
per second is to cure the bad habits of a dishonest person! When I got my
gun back from the crime lab I traded it for a 44 mag - 240 grain bullets.
I really think it would be best to meet a Vasectomy Doctor where it is
legal to wear such a side arm when talking about vasectomy, so the Doctor
is less likely to "forget" important information.
Luan
David
counselling should be done with the prospective patient holding a loaded
firearm. That did make me laugh!
> Why don't the promoters of vas simply say, "Vasectomy does not
> affect the sex life of the men who report they cannot tell the difference
> in sexual activity after vasectomy." (Typical double talk used by
> promoters and politicians) Why don't they truthfully say, " The pleasure
> of sex is destroyed or greatly dimished by vasectomy for some men. (and
> then admit that this could be as many as 10%)"
That would probably be because neither of these are true statements.
> What we are up against here is an industry
> made up of vasectomy and vasectomy reversal. There is BIG money in
> reversal surgery. If the complete truth ever gets out concerning the
> complication rates of PVPS, both vasectomy and the reversal business will
> basically end. Doctors MUST keep doing vasectomy to preserve this huge
> reversal business.
You know, I've been here 7 odd years now, and this is a constant theme - the
truth about vasectomy getting out. One hypothesis as to why we are still
waiting for this miraculous truth to emerge is that the truth is basically
the information that is, and has been in the public domain for several
decades now. I don't imagine you mean the truth according to the religious
fundies.
> Much better methods of male BC are near to reality but
> we may never see them here due to the acceptance of this terrible crude
> method already in use.
The pharaceutical lobby Vs a few doctors. Hmmmm, wonder who'd win that one!
Bottom line is that though alternatives are being researched, and have been
for some decades now, we are not likely to see anything on the mass market
in the near future. Not for the reasons you imagine though. Firstly the
ingredient to supress sperm production is testosterone. As anyone who has
bothered to look into trt knows, there are serious concerns about long term
effects of trt, and these concerns apply to the male pill. Aside from that,
the main reason we are unlikely to see an alternative other than in trials
is that the pharmaceutical industry does not see it as a money spinner. Men
do not get pregnant - women do. Women do not trust men (including husbands)
to take it, or for it to work. If it fails they are the one left holding the
baby - literally. Whilst there is a percentage of couples it would work for,
most women would prefer to either take responsibility for birth control
themselves or rely on a proven method (vasectomy). You may not be aware of
this, but I have had conversations with quite a few men who's wifes still
take the pill because they don't trust the vasectomy.
--
David
www.vasectomy-information.com
www.vasectomy-faq.org
Luan
I cannot understand why you can say these statements are untrue.
1. "Vasectomy does not affect the sex life of the men who report they
cannot tell the
difference in sexual activity after vasectomy."
2. "The pleasure of sex is destroyed or greatly dimmished by vasectomy
for some men. (and
> then admit that this could be as many as 10%)"
>That would probably be because neither of these are true statements.<
The first statement is simply BS with no truth or untruth in it. It is
like the statements made on many web sites where "information" about
vasectomy is available like Planned Parenthood.
The second statement comes from the Earth - "reality".
In the county where I live the total population is (was at last census)
26,000. I have a list of 44 men I perosnally know who have had vasectomy.
Of these - Elmer M - Dean F - Earling J and I suffer from PVPS. Elmer is
dead now but his son Tom can report on his behalf. Earling lost his
testicles and can tell you about his experience in a high pitched voice -
Dean needs 2 viagra to have erections and has serious pain during
intercourse for the past 11 years. Dean will not talk about vasectomy
except to warn against it vigorously!! You can talk to his wife when he
is not home to get the whole story. Elmer spent one summer (3 months) on
crutches from the pain he suffered but I do not know his whole story (God
Rest His soul, he was my 7th grade teacher), just that it was not
something Tom (his son) would ever consider taking a chance with. I can
arrange for you to meet these men and talk to Tom if you like. Is this
not living proof? I can tell you how to get a very good idea of my 10
month + ordeal with PVPS feels like. I actually did this so I can say it
in truth. To experience what MY PVPS feels like (pre testosterone
therapy) hang a 2 pound weight on your testicles (I used a shoe lace and
the weight was 33 ounces - a can of vegitables) Walk around - jump a
little try the stairs etc. and tell me it doesn't dimminish your quality
of life. This was a bad day for me. Take a one pound weight..I had a
15.7 OZ can and do the same thing. This is a good day!! Leave these
weights on 24/7 for 8 months and see what happens. If you desire sex you
must buy an electric cattle prod and have a friend apply it to your
scrotum at the time of ejaculation (I did not try this but I have used
cattle prods hunderds of times on animals and I believe it is about the
right stimulation - sometimes with strong batteries and sometimes with
weak batteries. Now tell me it doesn't destroy sexual pleasure. Last I
checked 4 out of 44 was about 9%... Good Grief David.... How can you say
I am not telling the truth? Isn't this reality here where I live???? I
invite you to visit me here and meet my friends and neighbors and learn
what I have learned - that men do not talk about PVPS unless asked. I
lived near these men for 30 years and never heard of Vasectomy Problems
and I was listening. One more reason to come and see me and discuss
vasectomy. If the weather is favorable I will give you a balloon ride and
for about 2 hours we can forget the subject of vasectomy - I hope. I have
cancelled all balloon flights since my vasectomy problems got severe due to
inability to make good decisions while in pain. With the testosterone I
think I can resume my business.
PS - I hate to admitt it but my little experiment with the weights which
felt so nearly accurate to describe MY PVPS - cost me dearly. I must have
upset some damaged nerves on the right side with the 2 pounder and for
several days I had terrible sharp pains. However, it settled down over
time and is ok now. BTW My home is in polk county, Wisconsin, USA. You
are invited! I will show you some truth.
David
>
> 1. "Vasectomy does not affect the sex life of the men who report they
> cannot tell the
> difference in sexual activity after vasectomy."
>
>
> 2. "The pleasure of sex is destroyed or greatly dimmished by vasectomy
> for some men. (and
>> then admit that this could be as many as 10%)"
It's very simple. I say that these statements are untrue because they *are*
untrue. It isn't any more complicated than that.
Statement 1 is nonesnse - you say that yourself. I quote:- "The first
statement is simply BS with no truth or untruth in it."
Statement 2 has no basis in fact, and is not backed up by statistical
evidence.
Hence both statements are not true. Why on earth should any doctor be
compelled to make these statements?
I do not intend to get into any argument where naming freinds or family
"proves" a point one way or another. That line of argument proves nothing
statistically and is consequently pointless.
> Good Grief David.... How can you say I am not telling the truth?
That isn't what I said. I have no way of knowing if any of the statements
made in this newsgroup are factual or not - I make no comment. I rely on
published statistical data. I am saying that both of the statements you
think doctors should tell patients are not backed by statistical data - you
say yourself that one of them is "simply BS with no truth or untruth in it".
Therefore there is no reason for them to be compelled to say them. It isn't
going to happen.
As I said earlier, I've been here a long time and the doomsayers prophecies
of "the truth about vasectomy" being revealed has not happened - nor will
it. Simply because the information ALREADY IS in the public domain, and has
been for quite some time.
The main change I've seen over the time I've been here is that there is a
shift towards standardising counselling. This is a very positive step, and
one that NONE of the anti-vas lot will publicly support. In the UK, we have
new guidelines for sterilisation counselling. Motivated purely by the
percieved culture of litigation against doctors. The RCOG who formulated the
guidelines say this in the first paragraph of the full report. The RCOG
guidelines state that all patients should be warned about the possibility of
long term chronic pain. The doctor has to give the patient an information
leaflet that states this. The information leaflet is available in many
languages including braille and audio version.
How does this affect the US? Several of the major contributors to the
guidelines are very prominent US urologists. I believe they see the
guidelines as implemented here as a blueprint. I'd expect the same to
happen over there at some point, for the same reasons it's happened here
already.
It's my belief that supporting evidence based, standardised counselling is
the most sensible and practical way forward. I've seen all the other
strategies, and to be honest in the 7 odd years I've been here they have
simply had no effect whatsoever. The movement towards standardised, evidence
based counselling has.
--
David
www.vasectomy-information.com
www.vasectomy-faq.org
Doug
direction. I thought that maybe a few people that have been through this
could comment on what they thought was the best thing for me to do. Since I
am the one going through this it's hard to keep all thing strait in my head
and make solid decisions. Right now I want to get better, after I am better
and all the facts are in I will worried about pointing a finger and
assigning blame. Thankfully sex is good and we are enjoying worry free sex I
just have low pain in the balls all the time (and that sucks). We may be
even having to much sex as we rarely skip a single day. But since things
seem to work ok and sex does not make the pain worse we figure why not use
it that's why we did the vas in the first palce. Since I am considering
converting my closed end to open end maybe someone could comment on that.
Has anyone with PVP had success with this. I am looking for direction.
Thanks
Doug
Giraud
off and on for over a year before my open-ended conversion. I also had
similar symptoms 20 years ago (well before the vasectomy). That's
always been pretty much a mystery. My gut says that having the
vasectomy perturbed things, and it also made any "blockage" (if I had
one) more severe (being that 100% blockage is the goal!).
My uro had a feeling that I was suffering from "congestion"
(backpressure). He actually suggested open-ended conversion as an
option. He said some men take a long time to "resolve," and some never
do completely on their own. I gave it some thought for a few months,
and then I decided to do it.
I cannot say it made a black and white difference. In other words,
similar to what you describe, my pain became less frequent and less
severe over time even before the conversion. And I will say that the
conversion, being an operation (similar to the original vasectomy),
caused a reset in recovery (in other words, I had pain increase again
after, and I had to recover). But there did seem to be a difference, in
that the feeling of pressure, at least on one side, seemed less or
non-existent.
I still am not 100% ache-free *all* of the time, but there are long
stretches of no pain, and I feel it is fading into the past, slowly.
Strangely, when I do feel discomfort, it often seems stress-triggered,
making me think there are some subtle mind-body connections that we must
acknowledge; or maybe stress causes contractions of the spermatic cord
muscles - who knows! Also, the sensation of pressure I felt is pretty
much gone. I wonder if this would have happened if I had not converted.
I'll never know, but I don't feel it made matters worse in any case. I
don't even think I had granulomas. I get a muscle-ache kind of feeling
for a while after sex, but it is not really unpleasant at all - feels
like I worked out down there!
So, it's hard to say what you should do, but I'd tend toward the
open-ended conversion, since I doubt you want to be fertile again, and
even a reversal, as you say, is not a guarantee of 100% cure. There's a
chance you might trade one pain for another, but I doubt it'sa big risk.
In any case, keep us posted how things go.
-Giraud
Doug
low grade aching basically what I have did you ever have pain free (or
almost) days (even half days or hours) when you thought for a minute it was
over. I have had a few times when just for a little bit I could feel no or
almost no pain but it only lasted minutes or hours and this only happen a
few times. I have been keeping a pain chart so I can see any progress. I
have had progress since it was first done and I do wonder if it will
continue but it has come to a stop for the past month. I worry too that the
open end conversion basically another vas will be as traumatizing as the
original. I was in so much pain those first few weeks I thought that I would
never heal. Maybe I should give it some more time maybe the whole year
before I go and have it converted to open or reverse it. I would only want
to reverse it if I thought that the problems could be from more then just
back pressure like an autoimmune response because we don't want any more
kids. You are right and I was thinking lets say if I do nothing I end up
with very low pain forever I could get the open end conversion that stops
that pain forever but the extra trauma and scar tissue create other pain
that never goes away. So that is why it is so hard, if the pain was very
high it would be no question you have to do something. But when you are left
with low pain it makes it hard to decide what is best. I was told by a few
urologist that the pain in some men can take up to 2 years to resolve. Now
as any man knows the last thing he wants is pain in the nuts let alone
having it for years. I am only at 6 months and I am going nuts I don't know
if I can wait 2 years or even a year. A few Dr's have suggested having a
nerve block shot into the spermatic cord that would pretty much get rid of
any feeling in the testicles good or bad. I don't like that idea at all
because then if there is ever something really wrong you will never know it.
I also almost always have increased pain when stressed. I was wondering if
you knew if when the Dr cut your end open did anything come out did you see
pressure released verifying that it was there. Also did you have plateaus
like me where you had no improvement for a month or so. Where were you pain
wise at the 6 month mark and how much did it improve over the second six
months. I am just trying to gauge things a bit because your case seems very
similar to my case. Also was your pain only in the testicles or did you also
feel pain at times in other places between your legs like in the prostate,
legs, pelvic area. I sometimes get shooting pains in one testicle they seem
to happen after a flare up of pressure pain. I think that maybe I am making
to much fluid I feel the pressure and then the epidermis starts to rip to
let out the pressure and that is the sharp pain. Not sure but that is my
theory.
Thanks,
Doug
"Giraud" <gir...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:11ebcl7...@corp.supernews.com...
Giraud
> Thanks Giraud this is info I needed. During the first year when you had the
> low grade aching basically what I have did you ever have pain free (or
> almost) days (even half days or hours) when you thought for a minute it was
Sure - the ache was/is very much of the "comes and goes" nature. As
time went by, the level of ache generally decreased and the percent of
time it hurt got lower.
> I could get the open end conversion that stops
> that pain forever but the extra trauma and scar tissue create other pain
> that never goes away.
Well, both of these are assumptions: there's no guarentee that the
operation will stop the pain or that it will create permanent pain.
> So that is why it is so hard, if the pain was very
> high it would be no question you have to do something. But when you are left
> with low pain it makes it hard to decide what is best. I was told by a few
> urologist that the pain in some men can take up to 2 years to resolve.
I was also told by my urologist that some men take "up to a year" and
that some men never resolve (he was talking about
backpressure/congestion). This is when he offered the open-ended
conversion procedure as an option to try, so I waited a couple of months
past my 1-year mark before making the decision.
> as any man knows the last thing he wants is pain in the nuts let alone
> having it for years. I am only at 6 months and I am going nuts
Pun intended? :)
> I don't know
> if I can wait 2 years or even a year. A few Dr's have suggested having a
> nerve block shot into the spermatic cord that would pretty much get rid of
> any feeling in the testicles good or bad.
I think those are temporary anyway - I'm not sure why they'd recommend
it if not to see if you are a candidate for spermatic cord denervation.
> I also almost always have increased pain when stressed.
I do believe that stress can exacerbate pain or even cause it to
surface. You are obviously stressed, and that's understandable. If you
could manage to lower your stress about this - make a plan to wait a
certain amount of time and then go from there - maybe it will help.
> I was wondering if
> you knew if when the Dr cut your end open did anything come out did you see
> pressure released verifying that it was there.
In my Lorazapam-induced stupor (hell, I have a memory of seeing my vas
segments, a bit bloody, sitting on the tray, and I now wonder if that
was something I dreamed up, although I think it happened!), my memory
isn't too clear, but I do believe I asked him, either then or at a
followup meeting, and he did not remember seeing anything signficant.
> Also did you have plateaus
> like me where you had no improvement for a month or so. Where were you pain
> wise at the 6 month mark and how much did it improve over the second six
> months.
Yes, I certainly did have plateaus - that is a bit frustrating! I think
that at 6 months I was about the same as at 1 year. It was mild, it was
"come and go," and it was definitely hard to know if I should do
anything about it or not.
> I am just trying to gauge things a bit because your case seems very
> similar to my case. Also was your pain only in the testicles or did you also
> feel pain at times in other places between your legs like in the prostate,
> legs, pelvic area.
Well, I've always noted that testicle pain can feel generalized in the
groin, etc. I never felt prostate pain, and if you do, that's something
you should mention to the doc. David has mentioned "referral" pain, and
this can cause testicle pain to feel like it comes from other places.
> I sometimes get shooting pains in one testicle they seem
> to happen after a flare up of pressure pain. I think that maybe I am making
> to much fluid I feel the pressure and then the epidermis starts to rip to
> let out the pressure and that is the sharp pain. Not sure but that is my
> theory.
Hmm, I doubt you are having regular ruptures. For one thing, it would
probably relieve the pressure for a while and not recur so soon after,
and although they happen, I don't think they tend to happen over and
over during a short time. But my thoughts are guesswork just as yours are.
If the pain is bearable and decreasing over time, I'd give it to the one
year mark, and then decide if you want to convert to open. Although you
will need to do the "recovery" again, if your doc is skilled, I doubt
there is much risk of making things worse.
-Giraud
Doug
give that a try for a few weeks and see. I have noticed one thing by
accident. I have always wore briefs and the other day I had to go commando.
I noticed while I was commando I had less pain and things seemed a bit
better. So I decided to go out and get some boxers and even though things
are free to hang and swing they are less painful. So it looks like where I
thought briefs holding things in place was best letting go is actually
better. I would have never thought this. As for my pain I guess I should
give it at least to the one year mark before doing anything like a open end
conversion. Until then I will keep trying things like drugs to see if any
get rid of the pain fully.
Doug
"Giraud" <gir...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:11esd4c...@corp.supernews.com...
Luan
Just a quick comment: Don't assume an open end conversion is possible. I
think you better have Plan A and Plan B etc. if you go in for any surgery.
In my case I was wanting an open end conversion on my right side as that
was where the strong pain was. The doctors refused to do anything open
end so I agreed to a right side reversal. At 8 months my right side lower
vas was completely destroyed and the epididymis blocked so nothing was
possible as we were not prepared to do a vas to epididymis reversal. If
you have blockage the "open end plan" is going to be a wasted surgery
unless you have plan B and maybe Plan C and maybe also be ready to remove
the epididymis at that time too. Maybe an ultrasound can help to
determine the possibilities before surgery but it is only the most skilled
surgon that can help you to do the best thing and I think you better
consider several options before so he knows what your wishes are. Once
the surgery begans it is not a good time to be making decisions.
Testosterone therapy gives me a lot of relief and I was quite happy until
one nurse gave me a bad injection 5 weeks ago. That resulted in constant
pain (in my butt) for a full 5 weeks now and 3 days ago the testicle pain
(right side) kicked up again. I am thinking the bad shot might not be
effective and the sperm production began again -- maybe. I will stay on
therapy for about 3 more months and I hope the pain settles down soon.
Then if it comes back when I go off hormone I will be pretty sure a proper
reversal might give me relief. It is very hard to know what to do next and
very few people can give much of an idea that will help except for the
doctors who are successful in treating this problem. I learned that the
injections need to be given by someone who knows where your ass is....
hard to believe what happened to me but then what can we expect from the
medical people when they do vasectomy and really don't know what the
result will be and don't think it is a good idea to mention
"complications" to the man who wants to be sterile. This "bad" nurse did
tell me she didn't like to give shots..... I should have saved her that
unhappy time by telling her to get another nurse!!
I have been talking to nearly everyone concerning vasectomy. I am
learning some interesting facts as I ask men of their experience. First I
learned that many men will not tell the truth on the first meeting but
sometimes later they will "Recall" more details. I have gotten the best
information from wives or X wives when I get a chance to talk to them. One
local businessman told me in May he had no problem with his vasectomy but
yesterday I talked to his X wife and learned something quite different.
last evening My college room-mate came by. I had not seen him in about 12
years. His mother died yesterday and I will attend her funeral tomorrow
with my 90 year old mother. We talked about vasectomy and he told me of
his which happened 15 years ago. He has had pain this whole time but not
very bad. He told me Sex usually makes the pain better but he is also
suffering from LOW testosterone and for a time took Injections. One thing
I noticed immediately when we met. He came to my house in the dark and
spoke to me outside before I could see who he was. His voice is very high
pitched now, not at all like I remembered so I had to ask who he was in the
dark. If his voice change is the result of low testosterone it must be very
LOW. I have known 2 other men with this high voice and one lost his
testicles in an explosion and the other to a bad vasectomy over 30 years
ago. My List of vasectomised men now is 49 and it seems the Mayo Clinic
web page which states that "up to 30% of men will have pain lasting 3
months or more....." is about right from my observations to date. If your
sexual pleasure is Good (mine is not) I think waiting a bit more is
probably the best thing to do. Thanks for sharing your experience and
concerns, men like you are the best cure for PVPS!!
Luan
Doug
I do plan to have a plan with options. First I have been told by at least 8
doctors that pain up to 1 year is possible and that no one should consider
surgery before waiting at least 1 year. I guess I tend to agree that 1 year
is the maximum reasonable time to wait. I have decided that if I have any
more surgery I will go right for the full reversal. My theory is I have
never had a single pain before the vas so my body has the best chance to be
pain free if all is back the way it was. After all I have read that it could
be my body reacting to the sperm getting into areas that it should not and
an open end will make that worse or at the least the same. I am told that
after only 1 year there should be no blockage and a successful reversal is
likely. Also at this point I know I messed with something on my body that I
should have left allow so putting it back that way it was offers the best
chance of being pain free.
As I noted the Dr gave me some nerve pain meds and no real relief yet but I
will give it a few more weeks before I call it. That is because if my pain
is from nerve damage a reversal will not help and will likely hurt more. But
since mostly both sides ache exactly the same I doubt that the Dr could have
damaged the nerves on both sides the same. So I am taking the meds more to
rule out nerve damage then anything else.
I talked to a different Dr at the place I had my vas done at (reg Dr on vac)
and he openly admitted that he has a few guys a year that have PVP longer
then 3 months and he has done a few reversals to help them and in most all
cases that did the trick. But he said that I have to give it a year because
he has had guys take up to a full year to be pain free.
I truly believe that my pain is from pressure and this causes my epidermis
to be irritated and my testicles to be sore and ache. I have been charting
my pain for months now and it does run in cycles up and down and with time
the down is increasing. The problem is I am never pain free I just have less
pain. So the real question is will I ever be pain free or will the cycle
eventually settle to just low level testicle pain.
Doug
Doug
have mixed results. The pain that I feel in my prostate is gone BUT the pain
in my testicles is 3+ times worse. So I think I am going to stop taking the
drug and see what happens. There is one other nerve drug that I can try but
I am not sure that I should.
I decided that one year was my limit before I execute a surgical fix. I have
an appointment in 2 weeks with a vas reversal only Dr. My ins will not pay
and if I have to pay I want it done right the first time. He is scheduling
for Jan 2006 now and that is my one year mark. So I will get scheduled up
for a Jan reversal and if the pain is not all gone by Jan then a reversal it
is. I was thinking of trying an open end conversion but I need to get on
with my life and move past this. I realize that the reversal may not even
help but somehow I think that it will. My theory is put it back the way it
was and let the body heal and attempt to return to normal and hope for the
best. From what I can find on the net reversals for pain have over a 90%
success rate.
Anyone who has had a reversal for pain I would like to hear your comments.
Thanks,
Doug
yabig23
Sorry it's becoming a long term problem and I hope it still resolves
itself. In my case a reversal did the trick but as it turned out most
of the damage was nerve entrapment that had to be fixed and not
congestion which it sounds like you are most probably suffering from.
The surgery itself was pretty intense but I started getting relief
within a few weeks and am now consistently 90%+ better and leading a
normal life once again.
Insurance didn't pay for it and it cost over $10K for a PVP specialist
which I consider the best money I've ever spent. If someone less
experienced had done it they may not have been able to untangle the
spermatic cord without causing permanent damage, and as you say you
only get one shot at the reversal. So my best advice would be to make
sure you are going to someone who specializes in reversals for pain
relief.
If you have any questions on specific details I'd be happy to answer
them on or offline. Best of luck over the next few months.
-Adam
Doug
How long did you wait before you decided on the reversal and what did you do
(drugs, test) that helped you decided that the reversal was right for you.
Ins is not going to pay and even if they did I would have to go to an in
network doc who would in all likelihood be a general urologist who does
reversals once in a while.
The doc that did my vas offered to help me out with a reversal by not
charging me for his service but I have to pay for the hospital and the rest
still well over $7000. He has only done a handful of reversal in his
lifetime.
I was going to go to this guy because he only does reversals and is within
reasonable distance of me http://www.vasectomyreversalnj.com/ If any one
knows of or has used this doc please comment. This doc has done thousands or
reversals mostly for fertility but also for pain.
Thanks,
Doug
"yabig23" <ad...@jbcc.com> wrote in message
news:1125708049.5...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
trif...@netscape.net
Doug wrote:
> Adam,
>
> How long did you wait before you decided on the reversal and what did you do
> (drugs, test) that helped you decided that the reversal was right for you.
>
> Ins is not going to pay and even if they did I would have to go to an in
> network doc who would in all likelihood be a general urologist who does
> reversals once in a while.
>
> The doc that did my vas offered to help me out with a reversal by not
> charging me for his service but I have to pay for the hospital and the rest
> still well over $7000. He has only done a handful of reversal in his
> lifetime.
If you are determined to go for reversal--and I don't recommend it over
waiting or reopening the vas tubes--DO NOT go to a doc. who is
inexperienced. This is a serious operation--afar more complicated and
traumatic than the original vasectomy.
Doug
plan.
Here is my reason for just planning the reversal over open or waiting longer
then one year.
I can find no one that had PVP or that had their closes end converted to
open and was cured of the PVP or any evidence suggesting that it will work
for sure.
I can find no one that had PVP longer then one year that it cleared up or
evidence showing that waiting has proven to work.
If you know of people please post but I cannot find them or if you know of a
study with good solid info post. From what I can find if you are in pain
over the 3 month mark chances are you are in pain for life. Again if I am
wrong I would like to see the data and info so I can make the best decision.
Also there is a chance that my pain is not just from pressure maybe
autoimmune in that case an open end would make things worse. So I think that
if I have any surgery at all the best option is to get it all put back the
way it was and hope for the best. Again if there was a test that I could
take that would show what was wrong that would be great but I know of none.
From my testing with drugs it looks like the problems is back pressure but I
read that testing with drugs is inconclusive. So that is again my reason to
go for the reversal over the open end. Also lets say I have the open end and
that fails now I need the reversal and in the end the trauma is greater so I
figure just get the reversal and spare myself the chance of trauma from the
conversion to open. I guess I am saying just go for what has the overall
best chance of working the first time and don't tack chances. My thinking, I
had no pain at all before the vas, after the vas I have pain, put it back
the way it was and let the body heal, this offers the best chance that the
body will heal and be pain free, don't wait so long that irreversible damage
is done.
The doc I am going to had done thousands of reversals and that is all he
does reversals nothing else so I am sure that he is qualified.
Thanks,
Doug
<trif...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:1125801111.3...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
yabig23
around 4 months and didn't seem to get any better after that. At about
6 months I went on testosterone which reduced sperm production and gave
me quite a bit of relief. The swelling near the vas sites on both sides
visibly shrunk which I'm guessing took pressure off the nerves. The
downside with testosterone is there are documented long term side
effects, and in my case even the short term affects of greasy skin,
acne and "road rage" made me discontinue its use. But it was enough of
a test to give me some confidence that I had a shot at reversal making
things better and I wasn't permanently damaged. If you go this route
make sure the doc prescribing it does a PSA test first and frequently
checks T levels to make sure you're within the appropriate range.
-Adam
Doug
it been since your reversal. Before the reversal did you have what you would
call good days and bad days that seemed to run in cycles. Could you yourself
feel the swelling that you speak of on the vas.
Thanks,
Doug
"yabig23" <ad...@jbcc.com> wrote in message
news:1126030152....@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
yabig23
I'd say I'm 90% pain free consistently now. Although I went in for a
reversal I must caution that there was a lot of additional work that
the doc had to do during the op in order to straighten out the
spermatic chord which had gotten wrapped around the nerves. So although
it was a reversal it turned out that most of my problems were caused by
trauma from the vas itself which makes sense since I felt incredbile
pain during the original procedure.
While I always had some level of pain before getting the reversal there
were indeed good and bad days as you mention. The swelling however was
mostly at the vas sites. I surmise this is because I had an open-ended
vasectomy and the sperm being released into my body and/or the
resulting granulomas put pressure on the nerves. Although I can't point
to any studies I empirically believe that sperm production can increase
or decrease on any given day which caused my cyclical pain cycles and I
would guess can also cause the same thing if there is pressure in the
epi on someone who has a closed ended procedure. Perhaps others
(Steve?) who have had reversals for congestion specifically can
corroborate this.
Hope this info helps. My entire story can be read at
www.vasectomy-information.com or directly at
http://turkey.jbcc.com/misc/pvpdiary.pdf
-Adam
yabig23
Doug
Doug
"yabig23" <ad...@jbcc.com> wrote in message
news:1126124836.8...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Doug
phone after they reviewed my medical history) that are known to treat PVP
and do reversals exclusively (skilled micro surgeons specializing in
urology, vas reversals, and doing at least 150 or more reversals per year).
Though they do not all agree on the exact source of my pain they do all
agree that a reversal is my best option. They all recommended against
converting to open end because there was no way to prove that it would work.
They all said that by converting to open end I lose a bit more of that
valuable vas on the testicle side increasing the chance that if a reversal
is done they will have to connect directly to the epidermis. This was
further confirmed by the 1 doc that seen me as he found that my vas was cut
a bit lower then normal. He noted that he would most likely have to work
with the twisted part of the vas because the doc that did the vas did not
leave enough of the strait part. This could further be a reason that I have
PVP because I was cut to close to the epidermis. The 1 doc said I had little
room for the pressure to go and that could be the problem. I asked if the
open end conversion would do the trick and he said it's up to me there are
no guarantees either way. But with so little vas left that I had better make
the right decision the first time, as I don't have enough vas for a second
chance. That makes the decision harder do I get a conversion to open and
take that chance or just go for the reversal knowing that I only have 1
chance on a vas to vas reversal. Given my time from the vas the doc said I
have a 98+% chance of a successful reversal for fertility (not my goal here)
and a very good chance for pain. He was honest and made it clear that he
could only do the best possible reversal and clean the area up best as
possible the rest is out of his hands. Since all these doctors are scheduled
out at least 3 months if I decide today, I still will be waiting at least 3
months before the actual reversal. With my time frame that makes the
reversal date just about exactly 1 year after the vas. The one-year mark
seems to be the extreme recommended max to wait before doing anything
evasive.
I am thinking the reversal is my best option under the given circumstances.
Unless someone knows of a man that had his PVP clear up after many months or
a few years. I have done searches on this and keep coming up empty. All I
keep finding is if you have PVP past several months, generally you have it
forever unless you do something about it. I sure would love it if someone
knows about guys having PVP and it clearing up permanently after months or
years posting about it.
BTW the doc that did the exam did a full workup on my prostate and
determined that I had no prostate problems at all. He said that my prostate
is not causing any pain that I have in or near the prostate. I guess that is
good it just further proves the pain is from the testicles only.
Thanks,
Doug