Worst decision in my life. How to fix?
crazy
uneventful and I am sure the urologist did his job well. I did however
have soreness and tenderness that lasted well beyond what I expected. I
remember returning to my urologist a number of times over the first 12
or so months, however he either subscribed antibiotics, said "have a
reversal", or "live with it". He was always stating that complications
were rare and it would probably settle with time.
I tried my best to live with the testicular pain and for the most part
could, although I had to sit down with a handkerchief stuffed under my
balls otherwise the pain was too much.
Then in 2000 I suffered my first ever bout of prostatitis. I didn't
even know what a prostate was prior to this, let alone had any previous
prostate problems. I had an ultrasound of the prostate and while there
was some calcification and mild swelling, it wasn't bad, but I did have
to pee often. My uro prescribed antibiotics and while this did assist,
I only felt 80% better by the end of the second course. BTW The uro
said that there was no way the prostatitis could be related to the
vasectomy.
The prostatitis problem never resolved and to this day continues. Given
my uro said there was no relationship between vasectomy and prostatitis
and prostatitis was hard to cure I thought that maybe there was
something else wrong with me (eg. weak immune system, head on
backwards, whatever) so I pursued alternative therapies to try and
improve my general health. Some of these helped a little but never for
long and never completely.
I even visited 3 other urologists, had a camera shoved up my penis, but
none of them had any idea how to help me other than prescribe more
antibiotics for something they could not culture.
So now I am faced with sore testicles (especially right one which has
an enlarged epydidymis) and chronic prostatitis which really wrecks
your life as you try to live with basically constant pain.
Recent ultrasounds have shown a much more calcified and enlarged
prostate as well as cysts and swelling in the epydidymis, cysts in the
seminal vesicules, you name it.
My research on the net has led me to believe 100% that my prostatitis
is a result of my vasectomy and that it is likely to be an auto-immune
reaction that has led me suffer.
>From where I sit (ouch) I have a few options:
1. Have a reversal
2. Convert to open-ended vasectomy
3. Undergo testosterone therapy.
Does anyone know, from their own experience, which one(s) I should go
through with and in what order? I am seriously scared of going under
the knife again because I know it can get worse, so I want to do it
right.
Believe me, and many others, DO NOT HAVE A VASECTOMY, the risks are too
great and no-one knows how to identify if you will suffer for the rest
of your life.
Thanks,
Crazy.
trif...@netscape.net
that vasectomy is the cause. What web research has led you to this
conclusion? As I understand it, studies have not found a relationship.
You speculate you are experienciencing an autoimmunological response,
presumably to sperm, and that this is causing your prostate problems.
But how would sperm be getting into your prostate, since your vas tubes
have been sealed?
Frankly, given your own analysis, I don't see how reversing the
vasectomy or reopening the vas tubes would have an effect. You mention
testosterone therapy as another option. Administration of T would
result in suppression of sperm production. I don't see how this would
affect your prostate, but we have read here that some doctors prescribe
it to determine whether scrotal pain is related to sperm backpressure
or leakage of sperm into the scrotum. So it might be worth a try, if
only as a diagnostic measure. (It is not recommended longterm in men
with normal T production because of possible side effects.) If T
therapy reduces your pain, maybe it will point to some cause of your
problem other than prostatitis. That said, prostatitis is a common
condidtion that can occur at any age and is difficult to treat. Do
you know about the prostatitis newsgroup at google? They may have
advice I believe the consensus there also is that vasectomy is not
related to prostatis. But they are open to looking at multiple causes
of the condition, inlcuding some that are not infection related. And
they share experience re: various treatements.
trifold
www.vasectomy-information.com
www.vasectomy-faq.org
David
> My research on the net has led me to believe 100% that my prostatitis
> is a result of my vasectomy and that it is likely to be an auto-immune
> reaction that has led me suffer.
I do wonder where people get this information!!!
Medline is the national library of medicine's online catalogue, where you
can browse, and read abstracts (in some full text versions) of published
medical research.
Do a search on medline for vasectomy + prostatitis and from the results that
come up, it's difficult to see why anybody would believe this to be the
case. Do the same search on Google, and most of the articles retrieved in
the top 20 do not suggest there is a link either. So I'm a bit puzzled by
why you are so convinced the vasectomy is the cause of the problem.
It might be an idea to research the general causes of prostatitis and ctp
(Chronic testicular pain) at reputable sites such as medline.
Doug
even be in the same boat look for me on the right. I was 100% pain free and
if you read my post you will see I feel about the same as you and also now
have prostate problems that I never had before the vas. I too believe the
vas caused my prostate problems based on my own observations though I cannot
prove it I still believe it. A few Dr's I have seen think it is possible but
don't know how we could prove it. You can read some of my post but I have
been fighting this just under 6 months. Please describe your prostate pain
and how it relates to your testicles I want to see if it is the same. If you
have the same problems we can work together to solve them as most Dr's have
little if any exp with PVP exp prostate problems from a vas as they don't
want to believe it or have never seen it. I believe it because I have what
you have.
Doug
"crazy" <crazy...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:1119618120....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
crazy
about his experiences and research in relation to his vasectomy
problems (which were really bad). He also has no doubt that the huge
increase in sperm antibodies that occurs after a vasectomy can lead to
many complications and reactions, including prostatitis, sore
testicles, epydidymitis etc.
Kevin has stacks of research that supports this. I know my body and at
35 I would not have had prostatitis if it wasn't for my vasectomy and
the pain it caused me post.
I am also no doctor and my research ability is limited, plus who can
you believe after suffering PVP? All I know is that many people have
suffered PVP and sperm antibodies increase immensely after a vasectomy.
I believe inflammation in the epididymis etc. is a result of the immune
system attacking sperm that are in places and quantities not normal.
The sperm enter areas of the body that they shouldn't due to blowouts
and blockages. The body must also dispose of many more sperm than it
used to when things flowed free. The immune system must fight them
because they are quite potent (they help make life, something more than
a virus usually does) and this leads to inflammation.
I experience prostate discomfort while sitting for long periods. I have
a desk job. I suffer urgency to urinate. I used to suffer
stinging/aching pain for 30-60 minutes after urinating. I only need to
urinate once at night, but prior to prostatitis, I never did. Without
taking many vitamins and supplements I get repeated "infections" where
I feel unwell and my testicles or my prostate hurt significantly. I
seem more reactive to certain types of foods than I used to. eg.
Alcohol and sugary foods make my prostate hurt more. I have less energy
than I know I used to have (and it is not just age related). I cannot
sit still for too long.At work I often have to get out of my chair and
walk around to get back a bit of comfort. I often feel worse towards
the end of the week. I couldn't bear to cross my legs due my tender
testicles (especially my right one).
Kevin indicated how Testosterone therapy helped his testicular pain.
This works, not because there is less pressure from less sperm being
produced. The pain is not from pressure. The pain is from inflammation
as the immune system fights the sperm in the wrong place. Testosterone
therapy results in the body producing less sperm therefore there is
less for the immune system to fight therefore there is less
inflammation. That is the theory anyway and I think many people can
vouch for its effectiveness.
I haven't tried it personally, but I have certainly asked about it and
am considering trialing it soon. I guess I am afraid of any potential
side affects that I know nothing about and that the experts know
nothing about.
Unfortunately I cannot offer much personal advice as I am yet uncured
even though I have suffered since 97. I too am seeking answers from
those that have tried solutions based on what I feel is the cause.
Cheers,
Crazy.
yabig23
decision to have a reversal. The first 2 weeks were uneventful, and
then as the levels increased I realized a significant reduction in
pain. The side effects I got were greasy skin (face and neck), acne and
what can only be described as road rage. From the research I did
beforehand I gathered that as long as you do it for less than 6 months
the long term effects are minimal, if any. I took it as a gel once
every morning.
Interestingly enough I had an open ended vasectomy so I think you are
correct in that it can help with inflammation as well as pressure since
my problems most probably were from the latter since the lower tubes
were left open. It turned out that when I went in for the reversal the
doc found major scarring and nerve entrapment, which he fixed and
subsequently has given me about 90% improvement. So in my case the
sperm was probably causing inflamation around the damaged nerves and
the T stopped this from happening. In retrospect when the T was at its
height I remember the vas sites still being painful to the touch but as
long as nothing touched them the pain was almost non-existent.
Testosterone is serious stuff and when taken long term may adversely
affect the prostate. At the same time if you're in anywhere near as
much pain as I was and have run out of options then I say go for it in
the short term.
crazy
Did you have prostatitis as well?
Did you have any pre-tests before going on T therapy?
How long since you have had your reversal?
How long were you on T therapy?
Do you think going on T therapy before your reversal, helped in the
success of the reversal? Were you still on T therapy during/after the
reversal?
Sorry for the million questions.
Cheers,
Crazy
Doug
I agree I know myself and I had no prostate problems before in fact I never
had a pain down there at all ever.
Different Dr's have a different take on the immune reaction the real problem
is our problem affects only a few people out of a thousand so we are by far
in the minority. I have tried weeks of antibiotics and NSAID with no change
at all so I don't think that I have an infection or inflammation. I just
thing I have pressure pain and maybe nerve pain The Dr said that pressure is
from the fluid not the sperm and taking T will stop the sperm and not the
fluid. He also said that the side effects are so great that he would rather
do the reversal then put me through the T treatment.
One thing I have been doing it documenting this and I plan to try and force
my ins to pay for the reversal. As many know reversals are not covered but
the Dr agreed to try with me to force them to pay for it.
The only prostate problem I have is pain no other symptoms at all making it
harder to treat. The one Dr says that the nerves that go to the testicles
are connected to the nerves that go to the prostate and the pain I feel in
the prostate could be from the testicles. I am also starting to think maybe
some nerves were damaged. This all makes treatment hard and deciding on what
to do hard. My current Dr is willing to let me play Dr within reason. If I
decide I want to try a drug he will give me the Rx assuming it will not hurt
me. He is willing to convert me to open or reverse it what ever I want.
Since I have been tracking my pain level everyday and over time I can see
very gradual improvement I am still waiting. But the pain is like riding a
roller coaster some days very bad others not that bad at all. At 5 months I
will give it some more time I think I have decided to set my limit at 1
year. If by 1 year I am not nearly pain free I will get things hooked back
up like they were and hope for the best.
Doug
"crazy" <crazy...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:1119706318....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
trif...@netscape.net
> Interestingly enough I had an open ended vasectomy so I think you are
> correct in that it can help with inflammation as well as pressure since
> my problems most probably were from the latter since the lower tubes
> were left open. It turned out that when I went in for the reversal the
> doc found major scarring and nerve entrapment, which he fixed and
> subsequently has given me about 90% improvement. So in my case the
> sperm was probably causing inflamation around the damaged nerves and
> the T stopped this from happening. In retrospect when the T was at its
> height I remember the vas sites still being painful to the touch but as
> long as nothing touched them the pain was almost non-existent.
What you say above makes me think scarring, nerve entrapment and damage
was likely the cause of your pain, not sperm antibodies. These would
be do to bad surgical technique.
trif...@netscape.net
> Different Dr's have a different take on the immune reaction the real problem
> is our problem affects only a few people out of a thousand so we are by far
> in the minority. I have tried weeks of antibiotics and NSAID with no change
> at all so I don't think that I have an infection or inflammation. I just
> thing I have pressure pain and maybe nerve pain The Dr said that pressure is
> from the fluid not the sperm and taking T will stop the sperm and not the
> fluid.
Did he say where this fluid comes from? Is it stuff accumulating in
response to immune responses to sperm? If so, why wouldn't decreasing
sperm production (through T) help? If it's not coming from that,
where is it coming from? Is he talking about semen, which could
accumulate elsewhere if you don't ejac. enough. This is the goo that
sperm swims in. It is produced in the prostate and seminal vesicles,
which are "downstream" from the testicles (that is, on the way out to
your cock--sperm normally moves from the testicles, through the epi.,
then up to mix with semen before being ejaculated).
>He also said that the side effects are so great that he would rather
> do the reversal then put me through the T treatment.
>
> One thing I have been doing it documenting this and I plan to try and force
> my ins to pay for the reversal. As many know reversals are not covered but
> the Dr agreed to try with me to force them to pay for it.
It's good your doc. is helping with this. It pisses me off that
insurance companies often refuse to pay even when a doctor believes it
is the best treatment for scrotal pain following vasectomy. I guess
they don't trust doctors to distinguish between treatment necessary to
treat pain and treatment that will just reverse sterility. Or maybe it
is just some pinhead going "by the book": they see reversal is
excluded generally, so don't go the extra distance to look into special
situations that might allow it.
>
> The only prostate problem I have is pain no other symptoms at all making it
> harder to treat. The one Dr says that the nerves that go to the testicles
> are connected to the nerves that go to the prostate and the pain I feel in
> the prostate could be from the testicles. I am also starting to think maybe
> some nerves were damaged. This all makes treatment hard and deciding on what
> to do hard. My current Dr is willing to let me play Dr within reason. If I
> decide I want to try a drug he will give me the Rx assuming it will not hurt
> me. He is willing to convert me to open or reverse it what ever I want.
So he is talking about reopening the tubes as a treatment? How will he
decide which is the better course, reversal or reopening the tubes?
Reversal is much more complicated and expensive (with greater chance
of additional damage due to trauma).
> Since I have been tracking my pain level everyday and over time I can see
> very gradual improvement I am still waiting. But the pain is like riding a
> roller coaster some days very bad others not that bad at all. At 5 months I
> will give it some more time I think I have decided to set my limit at 1
> year. If by 1 year I am not nearly pain free I will get things hooked back
> up like they were and hope for the best.
It is smart to wait. 5 months is not that long, I think. I had
occasional mild soreness round my right nut for about a year after.
But I only got this after esp. good sex or multiple ejacs in one
session--I don't know if it was from the ejacs. or from the way your
balls pull up when you're on the edge. Anyway, it was mild and would
go away. And it went away entirely in the course of the year.
I guess your doctor sees no harm in waiting a few more months?
trifold
www.vasectomy-information.com
www.vasectomy-faq.org
trif...@netscape.net
> Different Dr's have a different take on the immune reaction the real problem
> is our problem affects only a few people out of a thousand so we are by far
> in the minority. I have tried weeks of antibiotics and NSAID with no change
> at all so I don't think that I have an infection or inflammation. I just
> thing I have pressure pain and maybe nerve pain The Dr said that pressure is
> from the fluid not the sperm and taking T will stop the sperm and not the
> fluid.
Did he say where this fluid comes from? Is it stuff accumulating in
response to immune responses to sperm? If so, why wouldn't decreasing
sperm production (through T) help? If it's not coming from that,
where is it coming from? Is he talking about semen, which could
accumulate elsewhere if you don't ejac. enough. This is the goo that
sperm swims in. It is produced in the prostate and seminal vesicles,
which are "downstream" from the testicles (that is, on the way out to
your cock--sperm normally moves from the testicles, through the epi.,
then up to mix with semen before being ejaculated).
>He also said that the side effects are so great that he would rather
> do the reversal then put me through the T treatment.
>
> One thing I have been doing it documenting this and I plan to try and force
> my ins to pay for the reversal. As many know reversals are not covered but
> the Dr agreed to try with me to force them to pay for it.
It's good your doc. is helping with this. It pisses me off that
insurance companies often refuse to pay even when a doctor believes it
is the best treatment for scrotal pain following vasectomy. I guess
they don't trust doctors to distinguish between treatment necessary to
treat pain and treatment that will just reverse sterility. Or maybe it
is just some pinhead going "by the book": they see reversal is
excluded generally, so don't go the extra distance to look into special
situations that might allow it.
>
> The only prostate problem I have is pain no other symptoms at all making it
> harder to treat. The one Dr says that the nerves that go to the testicles
> are connected to the nerves that go to the prostate and the pain I feel in
> the prostate could be from the testicles. I am also starting to think maybe
> some nerves were damaged. This all makes treatment hard and deciding on what
> to do hard. My current Dr is willing to let me play Dr within reason. If I
> decide I want to try a drug he will give me the Rx assuming it will not hurt
> me. He is willing to convert me to open or reverse it what ever I want.
So he is talking about reopening the tubes as a treatment? How will he
decide which is the better course, reversal or reopening the tubes?
Reversal is much more complicated and expensive (with greater chance
of additional damage due to trauma).
> Since I have been tracking my pain level everyday and over time I can see
> very gradual improvement I am still waiting. But the pain is like riding a
> roller coaster some days very bad others not that bad at all. At 5 months I
> will give it some more time I think I have decided to set my limit at 1
> year. If by 1 year I am not nearly pain free I will get things hooked back
> up like they were and hope for the best.
It is smart to wait. 5 months is not that long, I think. I had
occasional mild soreness round my right nut for about a year after.
But I only got this after esp. good sex or multiple ejacs in one
session--I don't know if it was from the ejacs. or from the way your
balls pull up when you're on the edge. Anyway, it was mild and would
go away. And it went away entirely in the course of the year.
I guess your doctor sees no harm in waiting a few more months?
trifold
www.vasectomy-information.com
www.vasectomy-faq.org
trif...@netscape.net
> Interestingly enough I had an open ended vasectomy so I think you are
> correct in that it can help with inflammation as well as pressure since
> my problems most probably were from the latter since the lower tubes
> were left open. It turned out that when I went in for the reversal the
> doc found major scarring and nerve entrapment, which he fixed and
> subsequently has given me about 90% improvement. So in my case the
> sperm was probably causing inflamation around the damaged nerves and
> the T stopped this from happening. In retrospect when the T was at its
> height I remember the vas sites still being painful to the touch but as
> long as nothing touched them the pain was almost non-existent.
What you say above makes me think scarring, nerve entrapment and damage
yabig23
Yes on the pretests - PSA levels and T levels. Both were good.
It's been 7 months since the reversal. Healing leveled off at around 5
months and it's been very consistent since then. No more random "bad
days" but there is still what I would call minor lingering discomort
that is very bearable compared to before, and Advil actually helps with
it if I make it worse by sitting in 4 hour meetings, long plane
flights, etc.
I was on T for less than a month. My doctor told me that I had relief
earlier than most people which can take a few months depending on your
T levels before you start taking it. Mine were high already so it
didn't take much to start slowing sperm production down.
I don't think the T therapy had any effect on the reversal success
since my levels were back down to normal when I had the op. Not sure if
it would have made a difference if I was still on it.
Here's the full story if you want more details:
http://turkey.jbcc.com/misc/pvpdiary.pdf
yabig23
convinced it was made worse by sperm flooding the area - although not
necessarily my immune system's reaction it it. The lower ends were held
in by a clip and when granulomas formed they were in the worst possible
spot as far as the nerves are concerned. When the T kicked in there was
a small but noticiable reduction in swelling at the vas site. Within a
few weeks of stopping T the pain was right back up there.
Doug
<trif...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:1120056669....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Doug wrote:
>
>> Different Dr's have a different take on the immune reaction the real
>> problem
>> is our problem affects only a few people out of a thousand so we are by
>> far
>> in the minority. I have tried weeks of antibiotics and NSAID with no
>> change
>> at all so I don't think that I have an infection or inflammation. I just
>> thing I have pressure pain and maybe nerve pain The Dr said that pressure
>> is
>> from the fluid not the sperm and taking T will stop the sperm and not the
>> fluid.
>
> Did he say where this fluid comes from? Is it stuff accumulating in
> response to immune responses to sperm? If so, why wouldn't decreasing
> sperm production (through T) help? If it's not coming from that,
> where is it coming from? Is he talking about semen, which could
> accumulate elsewhere if you don't ejac. enough. This is the goo that
> sperm swims in. It is produced in the prostate and seminal vesicles,
> which are "downstream" from the testicles (that is, on the way out to
> your cock--sperm normally moves from the testicles, through the epi.,
> then up to mix with semen before being ejaculated).
He said it was the fluid to transport the sperm from the testicles accounted
for more then the sperm themselves. In other words he said that even the
testicles make fluid used to transport the sperm.
He explained both and said it's up to me to choose what I think is best for
me, he can only make a recommendation. His recommendation was try everything
we can within reason before doing any surgery, then do the open end
conversion, then as a last effort the reversal. I know the reversal has more
trauma and recovery but I am thinking that is best way if I go with surgery.
I am thinking if you are going to do any surgery just do what you know will
work put it back the way it was. Very hard to choose what is right for me
but I know I did not take well to the vas so why chance having to do a
reversal after the open that would be 3 surgeries instead of only 2 overall
less trauma if the open does not work. But opening them is covered by ins as
a vas redo. Dr did say he thinks that sometimes the open can be more trouble
in the long run but he agrees that it can reduce the chance of long term
pain from pressure only. But said the chance of pain from sperm forming at
the opening is great. That is another reason to just put things back the way
they were when all was pain free.
>> Since I have been tracking my pain level everyday and over time I can see
>> very gradual improvement I am still waiting. But the pain is like riding
>> a
>> roller coaster some days very bad others not that bad at all. At 5 months
>> I
>> will give it some more time I think I have decided to set my limit at 1
>> year. If by 1 year I am not nearly pain free I will get things hooked
>> back
>> up like they were and hope for the best.
>
> It is smart to wait. 5 months is not that long, I think. I had
> occasional mild soreness round my right nut for about a year after.
> But I only got this after esp. good sex or multiple ejacs in one
> session--I don't know if it was from the ejacs. or from the way your
> balls pull up when you're on the edge. Anyway, it was mild and would
> go away. And it went away entirely in the course of the year.
The thing is my pain does not change with sex maybe just a bit worst after
but the area is sore so I think that just may be normal for something that
is sore anyway.
Strangely for the past 3 days I have been getting a shooting pain in my left
testical. I am talking drop to your knees pain that only last a few sec on
and off and then lingers in the background for a bit. My wife was shocked
when we were in a store and I dropped in pain and so was I. This I have
never had this bad before so it is something new not sure how it is related.
>
> I guess your doctor sees no harm in waiting a few more months?
He said the only real harm is my mental state of mind.
>
> trifold
> www.vasectomy-information.com
> www.vasectomy-faq.org