years after snip - wife gets pregnant
Kris
I had a vasectomy about 2 years, took two spem count tests, both
negative, and received the "all clear" with no problems so far. I've
heard two stories of men having the same success but then years later,
their wife unexpectedly gets pregnant (by the same husband by the way).
My wife knows two women this is happend to. One got pregnant seven
years after. Another, three years after. What's the deal? I've heard
of the small percentage of men that experince something that means the
vans defrens grow back together. It sounds odd and almost impossible
to me but obviously something's going wrong.
Is it a good idea to have a sperm count test done on some regular
basis? Yearly? I certainly do not want to have the same "surprise".
My wife is a "high risk" pregnancy patient as it is. I don't think we
could risk another pregnancy. Besides, I wouldn't have gotten a
vasectomy if it wasn't going to be full proof.
Regards,
Kris
Biker
back together and thus reduce the likelihood of this happening a lot.
Does anyone know whether that is in fact true?
David
Hi Kris,
First off, no method of birth control is totally foolproof. Like all
methods, vasectomy does carry a risk of failure. However, the risk of
gettting pregnant having recieved the "All clear" is ten times better that
the lifetime risk of pregnancy with female sterilisation. Typically 1/2000
chance. One Canadian study puts this risk at 1/4000 with DNA proved
paternity.
What you refer to is late recanalisation. Again, the rate of this is rare.
I'd say that it's so rare that the available statistics don't really have
enough data to give an accurate figure.
The only case I've heard of where several women in a small group had
pregnancies post-vasectomy was in the south-west of England, and the
vasectomies were all done by the same GP. Post-vasectomy baby stories tend
to make the news due to the rarity of the event. Stories such as "Woman on
pill gets pregnant" don't make the news - nor do failed condom, or failed
female sterilisation babies make the news either. Incidentally, if a female
sterilisation fails, there is a chance the pregnancy will be ectopic.
I'd be a bit skeptical about some of the stories you tend to hear. You don't
necessarily get told all the facts. EG, the people your wife knows may have
not had the "All clear" as you have done. The number of people that don't go
back for the sperm checks is astounding, and they may have had sex before
being cleared. Also, as the Canadian study suggests, if DNA tests on
post-vasectomy babies were carried out, there may be a few surprises. Both
parties may feel happier putting down a little indiscretion as a "Failed
vasectomy".
Also, if you happen on information on post-vasectomy babies on the internet,
the chances are that the testimony is a complete fabrication in any case.
There are two groups out there that regularly post false scare stories
basicaully because they are opposed to vasectomy on religious grounds, and
feel it's better to make up false stories to achieve an end than to tell the
truth. Religious fundamentalists eh! What are they like??
If it worries you, then I would suggest getting a regular check just to put
your mind at rest. Anually sounds a reasonable interval. Explain your worry
to the doctor and ask for a test. He might never have had the request
before, but is likely to understand and help you put your mind at rest.
There is a home vasectomy test kit out there somewhere, but I have no idea
how reliable the results are. Clearly the manufacters can see a niche to
exploit for a product, and it wouldn't surprise me in the least of they make
exagerated claims in their adverts about failure rates in order to sell the
product!
Also, you can do it yourself with a cheapo home microscope. However, if you
don't know what you are looking at this may not help.
Biker:-
I think that cautery combined with fascial interposition represents the
"Gold standard" in reilability at the moment.
--
David
www.vasectomy-information.com
www.vasectomy-faq.org
http://vasectomy-news.blogspot.com
Unknown
>My wife is a "high risk" pregnancy patient as it is. I don't think we
>could risk another pregnancy. Besides, I wouldn't have gotten a
>vasectomy if it wasn't going to be full proof.
If my wife got pregnant again, I think I would go into a coma.
Our middle son was a "surprise" as it is.
Kris
may elect to have a test done anually just to cool my nerves.
I apologize for my spelling errors. I was typing my questions pretty
fast as my day was ending at work.
Thanks again.
Kris
MRVAS...@gmail.com
surprise at my age, the old ticker couldn't take it!!
All good medicine,
GREENFEATHER
Mark
back as often as I wanted to with a sample to check. Trouble is, unless
you check every time before having sex, you can never be sure this
won't happen. We did discuss this before the procedure, but he siad he
has never had a patient that it had happened to. Luck, procedure,
number of procedures, etc. I'm not sure why?
I think that a microscope has to be 300x to 400x power to see human
sperm. If your doctor won't do it for free, a lab would be cheaper once
a year just to ease your mind.
Boy, what a story you'll have to tell at Thanksgiving!
MRVAS...@gmail.com
All good medicine,
GREENFEATHER
Luan
With good eyes maybe you can see something at 100X with a good quality
instrument, however, it is my experience that to have a satisfying view of
sperm a 750X is nice. I never asked a lab person what they use for making
the determination but I am sure they will tell you. In college I used a
900X oil imersion lens to see some details of sperm and it was good. I
bought a little cheap 100X - 750X at a garage sale about 25 years ago for
$5 and it works, pretty well. I cannot imagine why men who are interested
in their fertility don't buy a good microscope. I have had one available
to me since gradeschool. I have a 10 - 100X variable Bausch & Lomb unit
that resides on my Kitchen Counter, it is something I cannot really do
without, if it wasn't so heavy I would take it with when I travel - $15 at
a flea market! However, I never used it to view sperm, maybe but they
would appear very small! Now I am shopping for a good quality scope that
can go to about 900X with oil imersion and maybe be light weight so I can
take it along. I plan to spend about 300. This is for my vasectomy
reversal. I highly recommend to any man who is considering vasectomy to
have some things done first. 1) Get a microscope and know how to use it!
2) have your hormone levels tested a few times to know what your range is
for future reeference. 3) have your sperm production tested to know where
you are. If you are a high producer (top 20%) maybe you want to reconsider
putting a huge load on your epdidiymis organs by plugging up the vas.
The last doctor I saw (number 22) told me he tells his patients "one in
1000 will have chronic pain" I said, "It is a few more than that." He
did not argue. He did write me a perscription for a different drug. He
said this is a safe drug. You can use it all you want. He said three
times, to not worry about this drug - it is not addictive like the one you
use now. Well, I looked up the details of this pain killer after trying
it once. It is very addictive and his perscription allows 6 refills for a
whole year. It is clear to me that his treatment for PVPS is to make a
drug addict of the unlucky man. My point is: In this business you must
take some responisbility and do some research and try to understand before
you see the AX man. Know what sperm look like and have the means to view
them. If you want to be sure about the success of your vas you better
have a regular look for the rest of your partners reproductive life. The
actual success per-cent is unknown. How many men regrow and have sperm is
unknown! The occurance of PVPS is unknown. The last man I talked to about
vasectomy(#56 on my list) told me he had serious pain problems for one year
but it settled down after that. He overheard me talking to a friend about
my on-going treatment for PVPS and offered a bit of his experience. I did
not have time for a lot of questions but I will see him again and learn his
history. That makes 8 of 56 who had some rather nasty long term
complications (not counting myself). When a doc tells me one in 1000 I
know he is selling something, and saying what he hopes I will like to
hear. I did not appreciate doc #22s BS and I did not appreciate his
selling me an addictive drug with instructions to use plenty of it without
worry.
With this expermential surgery you are on your own, Get equipped, prepared
and educated to avoid being "raped". Luan
Troll...@nospam.com
luan@.hotmail.com says...
> Happy Thanksgiving
[...] (Typical troll spew deleted.)
> did not argue. He did write me a perscription for a different drug. He
> said this is a safe drug. You can use it all you want. He said three
> times, to not worry about this drug - it is not addictive like the one you
> use now. Well, I looked up the details of this pain killer after trying
> it once. It is very addictive and his perscription allows 6 refills for a
> whole year. It is clear to me that his treatment for PVPS is to make a
> drug addict of the unlucky man. My point is: In this business you must
> take some responisbility and do some research and try to understand before
> you see the AX man.
> When a doc tells me one in 1000 I know he is selling something, and saying
> what he hopes I will like to hear. I did not appreciate doc #22s BS and I
> did not appreciate his selling me an addictive drug with instructions to
> use plenty of it without worry.
> With this expermential surgery you are on your own, Get equipped, prepared
> and educated to avoid being "raped". Luan
Luan, you are one screwed up guy, both physically and mentally.
I tire of you.
In your search of a new drug, you should ask for:
1) Overdose of barbiturates
2) One bullet (preferably a loaded 357 or 12-gauge)
3) 20 feet of rope tied in a hangman's noose
http://www.realknots.com/knots/noose.htm
4) A one-way ticket to Oregon
http://egov.oregon.gov/DHS/ph/pas/faqs.shtml
http://www.internationaltaskforce.org/sptlt2.htm
Now get the hell out you damn troll!
David
Unusual comments.
> I plan to spend about 300. This is for my vasectomy
> reversal.
Erm - why??? How is it going to help??
> I highly recommend to any man who is considering vasectomy to
> have some things done first. 1) Get a microscope and know how to use it!
Why??
> 2) have your hormone levels tested a few times to know what your range is
> for future reeference.
I honestly don't see how this helps, as numerous studies have proved no
association between vasectomy and hormone levels.
> 3) have your sperm production tested to know where
> you are. If you are a high producer (top 20%) maybe you want to
> reconsider
> putting a huge load on your epdidiymis organs by plugging up the vas.
This is nonsense. I've not seen any scientific evidence to even suggest that
this might have any truth in.
> Know what sperm look like and have the means to view
> them. If you want to be sure about the success of your vas you better
> have a regular look for the rest of your partners reproductive life. The
> actual success per-cent is unknown.
What on earth are you talking about - please clarify.
> How many men regrow and have sperm is unknown!
There are statistics available on this - it's not an unknown. Try reading up
on it before you make these grandiose pronouncements.
> The occurance of PVPS is unknown.
I don't know how you can put a figure on something that doesn't have a
standard deffinition. Labreque et all describe post vasectomy complications
such as pvp "Based on unsystematic, self referred, unblinded medical
consultations with no objective criteria and to timing and length of follow
up specified. All the preceding pitfalls contribute to the overall low
methodological quality of most currently availabe comparative studies"
MRVAS...@gmail.com
and earned my degree was biology, 100x will work just fine, 250x or 300
is even better. The field gets very narrow to search, that's the reason
I recommended 100x for a novice.
Personally I think you need the services of a psychologist, not a
urologist.
As for the changes in the endocrine system, my testosterone level went
up, way up after my vasectomy, not down. Even after 2 cycles of 650mgs
of test E, tren and anadrol I rebounded just as high as before. DO YOUR
FUCKING HOMEWORK TROLL!!
ROB
Ugly
proclaiming:
>Hello folks. I have a question.
>
>I had a vasectomy about 2 years, took two spem count tests, both
>negative, and received the "all clear" with no problems so far. I've
>heard two stories of men having the same success but then years later,
>their wife unexpectedly gets pregnant (by the same husband by the way).
> My wife knows two women this is happend to. One got pregnant seven
>years after. Another, three years after. What's the deal? I've heard
>of the small percentage of men that experince something that means the
>vans defrens grow back together. It sounds odd and almost impossible
>to me but obviously something's going wrong.
>
>Is it a good idea to have a sperm count test done on some regular
>basis? Yearly?
I was told that I don't need a recount - ever.
Yet, a pregnancy would indeed be cause for an appearance on the Maury Show.
Luan
Expermental because: Doctors don't know what causes PVP, how to avoid it
or who will get it. Experimental because the long term effects of
vasectomy are not studied well yet and will surely be connected to more
than a double risk kidney stones.
I feel as if I am being raped.... My reversal attempt at curing disabling
PVPS is to happen less than 10 days from now. This will cost $10,100 with
no guarntee of success. If you went to see a doc about something as minor
as the "SNIP" and ended not being able to work full time for over a year
and then pay over 10,000 for a chance of recovery - is rape too strong a
word to use? Don't forget, I have paid thousands in bills to the other 21
doctors too as well as about 1500 hundred in medications.
It is unknown how many men regrow the vas. Most vasectomised men who die
are not investigated and after their wives are beyond child bearing age
who cares? The number of pregnancies that occure after vasectomy is not a
good indication of how many men who regrow the vas. In many cases the vas
may reconnect but pregnancy does not occure due to the immune system
having antibodies against the sperm making the man sterile but for a
different reason.
Yes, PVP is unknown for many reasons. If I could loan you my pain
problems for a few weeks you would have some idea what it is but sadly I
cannot. It seems that it makes life easier for doctors if they deny PVP
as best they can for as long as they can. I thought maybe I would be of
interest to some doctors since PVP is so "rare" but I soon learned doctors
don't like to be reminded of their failures or the fact that they Practice
an experimental proceedure and promote it as safe and wonderful. If the
medical profession would ask for men to come forward and get treatment for
the PVPS problems I am sure they would find many as I have. However, most
doctors have nothing to offer for treatment and they obviously do not like
to admit that PVP is a huge problem. My definition of PVPS: Physical pain
that causes the pleasure of sex to be adversly affected and/or pain that
causes an inability to work as before because it restricts normal
movement, causes loss of sleep, or inability to concentrate effectively.
In other words if vasectomy ends in disability the man has PVPS. If this
condition lasts longer than 6 months it has damaged the man beyond what he
would have knowingly submitted to I believe. Informed Conscent is the
problem here. Men would not submitt to vasectomy so quickly if the
information was accurate and complete. These problems are very common
after vasectomy. "Common" is between 3% and 9% in case you want that term
defined.
Why have a microscope? SO you know if you have sperm in your semen for
christ sake! Maybe you don't even need a vasectomy! How many men are
checked first? In one minute a man or his lover/wife can put one drop of
semen on a slide and have a look. Why go running off the the people at
the clinic and jack off in the can and go through all that several times
when all U need is a little micorscope at home? If you want real piece of
mind U need to be looking often, forever, to know if any sperm return. If
this isn't common sense then all we have here is the blind leading the
blind. Open your eyes and HAVE A LOOK. My conclusion after this
experience is that men are much more stupid than I first thought. I am
now more aware of why my best friends are mostly female. An interesting
item on the news last week. Wemen tell only 1/3 as many lies as men. I
sure learned that the hard way!
Luan
David
make that clear.
I was inclined to ignore your latest rant. To be brutally frank, you aren't
open to any form of discussion - your posting style is a rant. I don't have
a problem with that - rant away if it pleases you. My style is not to rant
back, but I will discuss - hence my inclination to ignore the rant. However,
there are some points worthy of discussion here, so I will offer my opinions
in return, although I have learned not to expect informed commentary or
discussion back.
You can't call something undertaken by 42 million people annually (or
whatever the WHO current estimate is), and that has been performed in large
numbers routinely for over 40 years as experimental. Especially as the
published research goes back nearly 200 years.
Like it or not, you can't liken vasectomy to rape in any way, shape or form.
An entirely incorrect useage of the word.
You CAN discuss levels of pvp etc, and that is what I think you actually
wish to do, somewhere under this large smokescreen of ranting.
You constantly mention informed consent. I'm a firm advocate of this.
However, it should be appreciated that informed consent is a two way street.
In order for a doctor to fully advise you and truly inform you of any risks
specific to you, you need to disclose relevant information to the doctor.
You have posted publicly that prior to your vasectomy you had a twenty year
history of painful ejaculations, yet you never mentioned this to the doctor.
Now I should have thought that this information would be necessary
information that you should have shared without doubt - even if you hadn't
sought treatment for it before. I'm sure that given that information you
would have been advised to have that investigated and treated before
considering vasectomy.
You also complain that you haven't been involved with any medical research.
Would you have disclosed this information to researchers on order for them
to get a handle on if pre-existng conditions may be a predictor for PVP? We
both know the answer to that one is that you would not have shared this
information.
The whole purpose of medical research is to base it on a random sample - as
opposed to basing research on people that apply in order to skew statistics.
That is one of the problems with existing studies into PVP - they all rely
on self reporting, and are questionnaire studies. Not mentioning
pre-existing problems may be common, and one reason the stats are far from
accurate.
Other factors that skew data include the fact that CTP is as common in
unvasectomised men as it is in vasectomised men. The further away you get
timewise, logically the likelihood of it not being PVP and actually being
non-related increases. No studies take account of that, and it was a
recommendation in Schwingle Guess to look at this back in 1998 / 2000.
I note that yet again your figures are sourceless. Probably for good reason.
I agree totally that under reporting happens, but only to an extent.
The previous estimate of the number of vasectomies performed anually in the
US was 500,000 - equating to roughly 12% of men. There is new research just
published that suggests the percentage of men relying on vasectomy as their
prime method of birth control is much higher than that, putting the 500,000
figure into doubt as a considerable under-estimate.
The top four states in the vasectomy stakes are Washington at 29.8% of men,
Oregon at 30.6% of men, and topping the table jointly are Montana and Idaho
at 32% of men rely on vasectomy as their primary method of birth control.
Logic dictates that should your figures have any credence whatsoever, then
there would be a *lot* of unhappy men - especially in the states above. If
you factor in under-reporting, and factor out the fact that few will come
forward, you STILL have a very large number of men prepared to be vocal. As
we simply don't hear squat from them, I'd suggest that logic dictates that
the figures quoted don't make any sense.
> It is unknown how many men regrow the vas.
As I posted before, this *is* known. The accepted rate is approximately 1 in
2000 men who undergo a vasectomy are likely to get their wife / partner
pregnant due to recanalisation of the vas deferens. One Canadian study put
the rate at 1 in 4000 when they took into account proving that the child
produced was indeed the biological offspring of the parents, and not as the
result of an indiscretion.
> Most vasectomised men who die
> are not investigated and after their wives are beyond child bearing age
> who cares?
So what are you suggesting - All men who die for whatever reason have an
autopsy, and it's established if they were fertile or not???????
If the vasectomy has been effective in preventing pregnancy, it's been
effective at preventing pregnancy. What's the point????
> Why have a microscope? SO you know if you have sperm in your semen for
> christ sake! Maybe you don't even need a vasectomy! How many men are
> checked first?
The vast majority of men who have a vasectomy have one or more children. I
don't think many of them need proof that they are fertile. Why perform a
test for fertility on a man who wants a vasectomy who as PROVED he's fertile
by fathering one or more children?
> In one minute a man or his lover/wife can put one drop of
> semen on a slide and have a look. Why go running off the the people at
> the clinic and jack off in the can and go through all that several times
> when all U need is a little micorscope at home? If you want real piece of
> mind U need to be looking often, forever, to know if any sperm return. If
> this isn't common sense then all we have here is the blind leading the
> blind. Open your eyes and HAVE A LOOK. My conclusion after this
> experience is that men are much more stupid than I first thought. I am
> now more aware of why my best friends are mostly female.
You didn't answer the question I asked - why do you need a microscope for
your vasectomy reversal? Nor have you given any logical answer to my
question as to why men considering a vasectomy should have one either.
Doug
"Luan" <lu...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:90e5a11f014ef6fc...@localhost.talkaboutsupport.com...
> Hello David,
> Expermental because: Doctors don't know what causes PVP, how to avoid it
> or who will get it.
>Experimental because the long term effects of
> vasectomy are not studied well yet and will surely be connected to more
> than a double risk kidney stones.
Remember they are Practicing Physicians someday they will be pros but not
yet.
> I feel as if I am being raped.... My reversal attempt at curing disabling
> PVPS is to happen less than 10 days from now. This will cost $10,100 with
> no guarntee of success. If you went to see a doc about something as minor
> as the "SNIP" and ended not being able to work full time for over a year
> and then pay over 10,000 for a chance of recovery - is rape too strong a
> word to use? Don't forget, I have paid thousands in bills to the other 21
> doctors too as well as about 1500 hundred in medications.
We are victims of our misinformed decisions.
> It is unknown how many men regrow the vas. Most vasectomised men who die
> are not investigated and after their wives are beyond child bearing age
> who cares? The number of pregnancies that occure after vasectomy is not a
> good indication of how many men who regrow the vas. In many cases the vas
> may reconnect but pregnancy does not occure due to the immune system
> having antibodies against the sperm making the man sterile but for a
> different reason.
I think this is the body trying to repair the damage done from the vas. The
body is good at repairing itself.
> Yes, PVP is unknown for many reasons. If I could loan you my pain
> problems for a few weeks you would have some idea what it is but sadly I
> cannot. It seems that it makes life easier for doctors if they deny PVP
> as best they can for as long as they can. I thought maybe I would be of
> interest to some doctors since PVP is so "rare" but I soon learned doctors
> don't like to be reminded of their failures or the fact that they Practice
> an experimental proceedure and promote it as safe and wonderful. If the
> medical profession would ask for men to come forward and get treatment for
> the PVPS problems I am sure they would find many as I have. However, most
> doctors have nothing to offer for treatment and they obviously do not like
> to admit that PVP is a huge problem. My definition of PVPS: Physical
> pain
> that causes the pleasure of sex to be adversly affected and/or pain that
> causes an inability to work as before because it restricts normal
> movement, causes loss of sleep, or inability to concentrate effectively.
> In other words if vasectomy ends in disability the man has PVPS. If this
> condition lasts longer than 6 months it has damaged the man beyond what he
> would have knowingly submitted to I believe. Informed Conscent is the
> problem here. Men would not submitt to vasectomy so quickly if the
> information was accurate and complete. These problems are very common
> after vasectomy. "Common" is between 3% and 9% in case you want that term
> defined.
Honest doctors admit the risk upfront and know the chances of PVP to bad
most like the cash more.
> Why have a microscope? SO you know if you have sperm in your semen for
> christ sake! Maybe you don't even need a vasectomy! How many men are
> checked first?
A very good point it may pay to have a count before you have the vas you may
not need a vas to start with.
>In one minute a man or his lover/wife can put one drop of
> semen on a slide and have a look. Why go running off the the people at
> the clinic and jack off in the can and go through all that several times
> when all U need is a little micorscope at home? If you want real piece of
> mind U need to be looking often, forever, to know if any sperm return. If
> this isn't common sense then all we have here is the blind leading the
> blind. Open your eyes and HAVE A LOOK.
Good point I now own a quality microscope.
My conclusion after this
> experience is that men are much more stupid than I first thought. I am
> now more aware of why my best friends are mostly female. An interesting
> item on the news last week. Wemen tell only 1/3 as many lies as men. I
> sure learned that the hard way!
> Luan
Good point Luan I admit I was stupid for not knowing all the risks first and
believing what doctors told me without questioning them.
I hope your reversal works out well Luan let me know.
Doug