Kevin Hauber
kal...@aol.com
scenario with chronic pain and other issues that have yet to be fixed.
Hell, it made me cancell my pre-op exam after reading his book! Are the
risks of vasectomy underrated? The standard line seems to be a little
post-op pain and after few ejaculations and weeks you will be sterile
as a mule!
Am I cautious? You better know it! Please, no flames. Just wondering if
Hauber's experience was extremely rare. Thanks for any input.
Kalki
trif...@netscape.net
According to all the statistics and everything we have heard here, yes,
Hauber's experience is very rare.
David
> Hauber's experience was extremely rare. Thanks for any input.
Hi,
The only thing I personally wish to say is that in order to guage the
accuracy of claims made by that site you should compare the original text of
studies quoted with the version on the site. In many cases the extracts have
been selectively quoted out of context, frequently misquoted, frequently
altered wording and in some cases completely made up. On one page that was
on the site at one point detailing medical quotes, a paper by Hall, M. was
quoted. The "paper" was not a medical paper, but a newsgroup rant in the
style of a medical paper.
What you think of the personal opinions expressed on the site is down to
your own judgement. However, as there is virtually no medical evidence on
the site that hasn't been altered or fabricated that means most of it!
The other thing of interest is a chatroom conversation I was emailed by a
member of the chatroom a year ago now. A guy called Kevin was causing a lot
of offence with his views.
Since that conversation was emailed to me, I've changed the chatroom
software. The new chatroom has the facility to show the last 500 lines of
conversation, but not copy the chat. I felt the facility for chatters to see
the conversation that they had just joined was more useful than being able
to
copy transcripts, and after posting this lot below to the internet, I think
chatters wanted some guarantee of prvacy. Hence the change of room.
*****
25 june 2005 10.30PM - 11.20pm UK time
Login OK. Enter .help or /help for information.
[johnboywalton joined channel _vasectomy]
[3users in channel _vasectomy:]
jenny_tl - Kevin - johnboywalton
jenny_tl: hello jbw
Kevin: Hi Jbw.
johnboywalton: hi
jenny_tl: jbw are you snipped or thinkin?
johnboywalton: thinking
Kevin: John do not sterilize yourself, it is a sin against God.
jenny_tl: cool - my bf is also snipped.
johnboywalton: that's an extreme comment
Kevin: It is the truth.
jenny_tl: jbw - how old are you?
johnboywalton: 45 in a few weeks time
jenny_tl: Kevin is some kind of extreme religion guy
johnboywalton: just looking round for info at the moment
jenny_tl: kids?
Kevin: 'Extreme' is the word sinners use.
johnboywalton: yes. two. oldest just turned 10, and the youngest is
8 this week
Kevin: John, do not do it.
jenny_tl: sorry my origin is not English language.
Kevin: Why stop the Lord from blessing you with more precious
souls.
johnboywalton: do you have a convincing argument? so far I'm
heading towards having it done
johnboywalton: so jenny, where are you from?
jenny_tl: NL
Kevin: My argument is that your soul will be in jeopardy, I'm here at
this very moment because the Lord wants you to repent.
jenny_tl: me?
jenny_tl: or jbw
Kevin: John, you want to have worry-free sex, such desire is a
perversion.
johnboywalton: I have every respect for you kevin, but I need a
more convincing argument
johnboywalton: sorry jenny. you are from the netherlands?
jenny_tl: yes
Kevin: What if I told you that the procedure would destroy your
health, imagine constant pain.
johnboywalton: not that far from me then. south coast of the UK
jenny_tl: I see.
johnboywalton: Kevin, I've done my research and to be honest the
case against seems mostly propogated by people with your
viewpoint.
jenny_tl: wilk you go to marie stopes, jbw?
Kevin: John, do you not see all the horror stories on the internet
about vasectomy.
Kevin: ?
johnboywalton: yes - I've read most of the stories at this site - good
and bad.
johnboywalton: I've also looked at the rest of the internet. I've yet
to see a well put together argument
jenny_tl: Kevin had saif before you entered - he and his strange
friends had faked several bad stories on the internet
Kevin: Good, then why risk it John?
jenny_tl: said
jenny_tl: Hey kevin: that is a LIE, isnt that a Sin either?
johnboywalton: I don't think there is an MSI clinic near here. We
get vasectomy provided on the national health service, and that's
where I will get it done - if I decide to.
Kevin: Yes, that is true, but I know that doing so has prevented
many from committing the sin of sterilization.
johnboywalton: Kevin, because someone puts a story on the
internet, that doesn't make it some sort of truth.
jenny_tl: Is there any word on vasectomy or tubal in the bible,
kevin?
Kevin: Yes, lying is a sin, but in this case it is for a greater good.
jenny_tl: ????
johnboywalton: and that's a convincing argument for me to put my
wife's health at risk?
Kevin: You and your wife should not be using any form of
contraception.
johnboywalton: so are you saying that you are lying for the greater
good then Kevin? That statement confused me
jenny_tl: me too!
Kevin: Jenny, the bible does not approve of separating the unitive
aspect of sex from the procreative.
johnboywalton: we are Europeans Jenny. I guess we operate at a
different intellectual level.
jenny_tl: it seems so.
Kevin: Yes, the scare stories prevent people from committing a
greater sin than a lie.
johnboywalton: kevin, I'm not interested in being hit on the head
with a bible. Do you have any real arguments?
johnboywalton: so if the truth is scarier than fiction, why employ
ficion in the first place?
Kevin: Yes, vasectomy will cause you tremendous pain.
jenny_tl: my bf has no problems!
johnboywalton: I have to say that I've talked to a *lot* of men, and
none of them have had a bad experience.
Kevin: Jenny is lying John.
johnboywalton: Sorry Jenny, I should have asked that question. I
didn't mean to be rude and not ask you!
Kevin: I'm warning you John, don't do it!
johnboywalton: sorry - what's jenny lying about?
johnboywalton: I really don't mean to be rude Kevin, but you just
warning me off is not a rational, or convincing argument - sorry
Kevin: She is lying about her boyfriend's condition.
johnboywalton: I don't see why she should.
Kevin: To get you to have a vasectomy.
Kevin: So a lifetime of pain does not scare you John?
jenny_tl: why should I lie?
johnboywalton: I don't rely on Jenny (who I have known for about 5
minutes), but I do relyon a lot of family members and work
colleagues who have had it done
johnboywalton: what on earth makes you think that I will have a
lifetime of pain?
Kevin: You are 45, why risk it?, you've come this far. You and your
wife could have sex without contraception and let the Lord's will
reign.
jenny_tl: his wife could also go for a tubal!
johnboywalton: I don't think that's an option. I'm not going to
discuss that here, but I'd rather she didn't have further abdominal
surgery. Besides vasectomy is less risk than a tubal anyway.
Kevin: John, you assume that the Lord's will may be for you to
have child after child, but for all you know conception may never
take place.
johnboywalton: Kevin, did I mention that hitting me on the head
with a bible is not a good idea?
Kevin: Trust the Lord.
Kevin: I have not quoted scripture John.
Kevin: The Lord is speaking through me.
johnboywalton: "Bible bashing" in an English expression meaning
any unwanted religiously motivated persuasion
Kevin: John, go to a website named 'Don't fixit.com'
johnboywalton: I have
Kevin: I'm familiar with the term.
johnboywalton: OK
Kevin: Good. Wasn't that enough to dissuade you from the
procedure?
johnboywalton: nope. I'm not convinced it's totally accurate
Kevin: Hmm, perhaps my fellow members and I need to up the ante
on that site.
johnboywalton: so are you associated with the site Kevin?
jenny_tl: what?
Kevin: If it didn't turn you away than perhaps it will turn away
another.
johnboywalton: I think he means that him and his freinds want to
escalate their tactics Jenny
jenny_tl: what kind of tactics?
johnboywalton: don't know - I only know the deffinition of the
expression. you have been here longer than me Jenny
Kevin: As I stated to Jenny earlier, me and many others have been
campaigning for years on vasectomy and tubal ligation sites to
discourage people from sinning.
johnboywalton: I gathered. The question I asked was "Are you
associated with dontfixit"? The message you are putting out here
seems the same.
Kevin: Whatever it takes, in this case that means scare stories.
Kevin: Yes, I have submitted a number of stories on 'Don'tfixit' as
well as the newsgroup on this site and others.
johnboywalton: so are the stories you send to dontfixit true or
false?
Kevin: And I'm confident that many have been saved from the sin
of sterilization.
Kevin: Well obviously they are false since I've sent dozens of
different stories.
Kevin: As well have members of my church.
johnboywalton: but the guy who runs dontfixit is called Kevin. Are
you the webmaster?
Kevin: I know Kevin Hauber, and he has been cooperative with my
church's mission.
johnboywalton: OK. I wasn't too sure that dontfixit was a religious
site though. Would you say it is?
Kevin: On the surface - no. Beneath the surface - yes.
johnboywalton: I gathered that this might be the case.
jenny_tl: what do you mean with beneath
Kevin: In fact in the Kevin Hauber radio interview I was one of the
callers who gave him support.
johnboywalton: I wouldn't have heard it - I live in the UK
Kevin: You can listen to the interview on the site.
johnboywalton: doesn't seem a lot of point, as my mind is pretty
well made up to go forward with it.
Kevin: Jenny, by beneath I mean that Kevin Hauber has allowed
members from our church to submit scare stories.
johnboywalton: do you think it does any good?
Kevin: Your testicles will explode John. There is a chance.
Kevin: I know it does good John. It does a lot more than doing
nothing.
Kevin: Kevin Hauber has said that he receives dozens of emails
from men thanking him for letting the world know the truth about
vasectomy.
johnboywalton: Well, I know nothing of the politics. But I have to
saythat as a totally impartial person who has read both sites, I
wasn't convinced, and also sussed out that there was a religious
undertone.
johnboywalton: In your opinion it's the truth
Kevin: And it will soon become your truth John.
Kevin: Don't do it. Problems or no problems it is a sin.
johnboywalton: sorry kevin, but I'm really not convinced. Maybe we
can have this conversation in 10 years and you'll admit you were
wrong?
jenny_tl: what is your advantage to stop people from snip, Kevin?
Kevin: It is not 'my' advantage, it is the Lord's advantage. I'm his
servant and thus I'm doing his will.
johnboywalton: don't you meant "dontfixit" Kevin?? :).
jenny_tl: what is your interest
Kevin: Yes, 'don'tfixit' John.
Kevin: My interest is to get to heaven.
johnboywalton: well, for your sake I hope you do.
[Kevin left channel _vasectomy]
jenny_tl: btw, in what Lord do you believe, Kevin?
johnboywalton: anyway, thank you both for your input. Jenny, I
have visited your country and love it. Kevin, I hope to visit yours
soon.
johnboywalton: bye all!
******
27 june 05 10.40pm uk time
Login OK. Enter .help or /help for information.
[Mikey joined channel _vasectomy]
[2users in channel _vasectomy:]
Mikey - Kevin
Kevin: Hi
Mikey: hi
Kevin: Don't get a vasectomy, it is a sin against God.
Mikey: news to me.
Kevin: Good news.
Mikey: so what church do you belong to?
Kevin: Universal church of Christ.
Mikey: do you mean that as a specific church or a general term?
Kevin: Specific.
Mikey: http://patriot.net/~bmcgin/universalchurchofchrist.html
Kevin: Tha's the one.
Mikey: can't find anything about vasectomy on the site
Kevin: And you won't.
Mikey: so do your views differ from them then?
Kevin: We are against sterilization.
Kevin: No.
Mikey: so why don't they say so on the website?
Kevin: Myself and members of the church have been on an
internet campaign to discourage people from sterilization.
Mikey: sounds more like a "By his mersices" crusade
Mikey: mercies
Kevin: We have submitted a number of scare stories to numerous
sites, we've been most effective on the 'don'tfixit.com' website.
Mikey: has it worked here then?
Kevin: On this site we have systematically posed as men who have
had vasectomy problems in the newsgroup, as well as having
submitted scare stories to the stories section.
Mikey: is there a newsgroup attached? just saw the chatroom
Kevin: God willing we have discouraged many from sinning against
God.
Kevin: Yes, there is a newsgroup, click on the house icon at the
upper right of the screen.
Mikey: so as you are running the same campaign as "By his
mersices" are you affiliated insome way?
[kevin' joined channel _vasectomy]
Mikey: my typing is bad. mercies I meant
Kevin: Hi Kevin, do not get a vasectomy, it is a sin.
Mikey: two kevins?
Kevin: No we are not organizationally affiliated, but we are
spiritually affiliated,
Mikey: ok
Kevin: We both do the Lord's work.
Mikey: just had a look at the newsgroup. are many of the posts
yours?
kevin' greets all...
Kevin: Mine and members of the church.
kevin': no I haven't had my vasectomy yet
Kevin: Good.
Mikey: OK - I'd like to chat more but the boss is around. I have to
go back to work.
Kevin: Don't do it. It is a sin.
Mikey: catch you next time - bye
****
--
David
www.vasectomy-information.com - Main site containing all of the information
in detail
www.vasectomyblog.info - News items and new research discussed
www.vasectomy-faq.org - Vasectomy FAQ in easy reading style
kal...@aol.com
Da> Thvid wrote:
> > Am I cautious? You better know it! Please, no flames. Just wondering if
> > Hauber's experience was extremely rare. Thanks for any input.
>
> Hi,
>
> The only thing I personally wish to say is that in order to guage the
> accuracy of claims made by that site you should compare the original text of
> studies quoted with the version on the site. In many cases the extracts have
> been selectively quoted out of context, frequently misquoted, frequently
> altered wording and in some cases completely made up. On one page that was
> on the site at one point detailing medical quotes, a paper by Hall, M. was
> quoted. The "paper" was not a medical paper, but a newsgroup rant in the
> style of a medical paper.
>
> What you think of the personal opinions expressed on the site is down to
> your own judgement. However, as there is virtually no medical evidence on
> the site that hasn't been altered or fabricated that means most of it!
>
Dang. I'm hoping Kevin Hauber is not "this" Kevin. I spoke with him
on the phone and he seemed very sincere, no Bible thumping or "agenda".
And Kevin Hauber had already had his vasectomy.So he said and wrote.
David
> Dang. I'm hoping Kevin Hauber is not "this" Kevin. I spoke with him
> on the phone and he seemed very sincere, no Bible thumping or "agenda".
> And Kevin Hauber had already had his vasectomy.So he said and wrote.
I personally don't think it's the same Kevin. However, if the chatroom Kevin
is to be believed, then other Kevin should carefully consider who he chooses
as his freinds, allies and promoters of his book.
At the end of the day, you need to make the decision based on information
from all sources. Haubers experience is just one experience, and represents
a specific point of view. In his case he's chosen to self-publish a book
about it. Maybe I should do the same?
The internet is not always the best place to get an accurate viewpoint, or
accurate information from. One thing we have found running this newsgroup is
that men who don't have a positive experience do need to let off steam and
look for information. The internet is great for that. We've also found out
that most positive experiences go un posted. People ask a few questions
here, have the vas, post back to say it went well and sink without a trace.
Men who don't have a good experience are much, much more likely to become
active online. So whilst reading all the bad news stories available online,
you need to remember that hardly anyone posts positive experiences online,
and that rather distorts the perception. Bad news sells - good news doesn't.
Yes, it's true that some men have problems, some serious. Nobody here denies
this. The point is that they are statistically very rare.
To me, there has always been a strange, huge leap between the horrendous
(often sourceless) statistics you see posted online and people's actual
experiences. Something doesn't square. If the statistics of 30% plus of men
having serious problems are to be believed, you would have thought we would
have heard more about in in the media than we do. That in itself brings into
some question the accuracy of these statistics. Yes, there is always going
to be someone living in shitkicker falls who posts online that all her
neigbours got pregnant after vasectomy, or all his freinds had writhing pain
forever. You have to make a decision on what you believe, or can learn by
that type of posting.
Be careful about studies and statistics - especially quotes from them. Never
believe the headline - always read the story. One good information source
I'd quote is the UK sterilisation guidelines that have just come into force
(link is on the website). It represents the most comprehensive evidence
analysis available by some way. A lot of studies are quite frankly very poor
quality and badly thought out. The researchers have taken great pains to
look at a lot of literature, and grade it for quality of methodology and
list the specific failings of studies.
The whole purpose of the guideline is to limit legal action against the
medical profession if they stick to the guidelines. Most legal action seems
to have been in the area's of post vasectomy paternity and the voluntary
elective surgery didn't meet expectations in some way, mostly due to lack of
information in consultation, including post vasectomy pain. One specific in
the guideline is that doctors have to tell prospective patients that there
is a risk of pain afterwards. Interestingly, although they have to state
this, the guidleine is unable to offer any statistics due to the rarity of
the condition. To me, that Hauber's experience is extremely rare.
I would suggest that the best source of information to get a balanced view
is freinds and colleagues who have been through it. People you know and
trust. Get chatting to people you know who have had it done, and see what
their experiences are. You will be surprised how many men you know have had
it done, and will be willing to chat. Talk to men who are in their 30's and
40's and have kids. They are the most likely age group to have had a
vasectomy recently, or be considering one currently. They aren't going to
make it public un-invited, so get chatting and suggest you are thinking of
having one. Chances are that they have had it done already, or are also
considering it and their views might be useful.
yabig23
experiences, but I personally had debilitating pain from a vasectomy
that lasted 9 months and was only ameliorated with surgery, and even
then not 100%. Along the way I realized that yes, my situation is
without a doubt extremely rare, but it's also not a myth that major
complications can indeed happen. Millions get one without a problem, so
I don't want to scare you. But you should also be aware that not
everyone has the same experience.
Luan
truth as you can get based on my ongoing vasectomy experience. I read
some of his writing at about 3 months and dismissed it as too
unbelievable. I read it a little more as the miserable months went by and
finally bought it (4 copies) at one year post vas and by then I could
accept it as absolute truth. Enough of the problems he describes were
happening to me that I could not lie to myself any longer. Men with these
problems lie about their vasectomy experience and these lies are mostly to
themselves. To others they usually just don’t talk. What happened to
Kevin is not rare. I have at least 7 of the problems he lists in his
book. He might have a few more to deal with but I do not believe any
vasectomised man gets by without at least one or two complications that
will surface in time if he is observant. Among my friends and relatives I
have uncovered 9 of 58 who have obvious long term problems resulting after
vasectomy. Remember men do not find it easy to discuss these problems and
some of my friends have revealed it only to me. Two did not talk to me but
their wives informed me of a 12 year misery in one case and the other man
has no sex now, however, he told me he has “no problems”. I highly
recommend Kevin’s book. For those who cannot believe it I suggest a daily
kick in the nuts for a year and then maybe it will be easier to comprehend.
I am at 22 months post vas and recovering very slowly. I had reversal
surgery 6 months ago and talked to the doctor who did that for me last
week. He said to expect things to change for another 6 months, hopefully
all for the better. I know at this point I will never recover fully but I
live on hope that I might have a decent orgasm again someday. At this
point I say there are only two valid reasons to get a vasectomy: Ignorance
and Idiocy. I know almost all men are guilty of ignorance when they
under-go the “Procedure”. I have not heard of a doctor who gets what I
now know is INFORMED CONSCENT prior to the surgery. The Doctor who did
reversal for my pain problems told me 3% to 9% of men end up like me.
Another doctor told me, “We tell our patients one in 1000 will have
chronic pain that is disabling.” Notice he did not say he believes this.
Another Doctor told me, “2% will have long term complications and for them
I remove the epididymis and later sometimes the testicle. But do not worry
you only need one testicle.” Only problem with this approach is that the
pain is not cured more than 60% of the time by removing the epididymis.
My brother-in-law (radiologist) told me when I informed him of my
miserable mistake, “I’m sorry, I thought you knew better.” His rule?
NEVER, NEVER, NEVER see a doctor unless you are sick! There is an old
saying, If you plan to tell the truth have one foot in the stirrup. Shoot
The Messenger -- Blame The Victim -- Discredit The Witness, are all
games played on this web site. It is human nature to act this way. Isn’t
Easter an example of what happens when the man with the truth isn’t ready
to escape?
Vasectomy is not reversible. Motor nerves when cut do not reconnect.
(According to another Doctor I talked to) Making love is NOT the same
after vasectomy. It is likely that you will get normal erections and have
ejaculations after vasectomy but a finely tuned love relationship will not
likely remained physically tuned so well when even small changes in
sensation appear or when the pleasure is replaced with pain. In my case
the post ejaculation Orgasm stopped completely and remains arrested even
though the pain with ejaculation is fading pretty well now. Remember; To
the Mediocre, Mediocrity is Excellence. Most men never progress beyond
the simple sex life of an average teenage male. Nobody knows what will
happen to you after vasectomy. The combination of changes vasectomy makes
to your body is vast and infinite so you cannot predict the outcome. I
believe when questioned properly at about 20 years post Vas 30% or more of
men will admit they are not happy with the changes vasectomy made. The
only thing RARE concerning vasectomy problems is a man who will speak
publicly about his ordeal of miserable complications. Think of it as a
game of Russian Roulette. One in six falls wounded to the floor with a
bullet in his brain. Since he seldom talks we can ignore him and the 5
"lucky" boys can continue to brag and recruit more victims. This is very
dirty business. I forgive any who say Kevins book is just impossible to
believe, it took me one year with severe pain to accept it. I know the
lies we tell ourselves in order to feel better, I know many will go to the
“games” and discredit me here – NOW. Nothing I have posted here is untrue,
I can support everything I have said in all my posts and if any want to
contact me they are welcome. The misery of PVPS is not something that can
be described well verbally, it is in a class by itself and I highly
suggest you avoid the experience. Kevin’s book is Excellent, it should
be required reading! It is the truth. I have no doubt that many men
enjoy the result of vasectomy. For about 2 months I was pleased with
myself for doing it even in the face of pain and destroyed Orgasm. The
younger you are the more likely you will not admit the truth of your
outcome. My boss used to say to me, 40 years ago, “You won’t say SHIT
with a mouthful.” You boys who just had vasectomy are not going to be
able to admit to bad outcome for many months or years, unless you are the
unlucky 3% to 9% who get the severe pain and then you might not tell but
invent another ailment to blame it to. I did this too! This is a nasty
situation and the only experts are the victims who RARELY talk.
Luan