Cutting-an unpleasnt side affect
Fenisz
was about 13 or 14. The term recently resurfaced because I recieved a spam on
incest and Channel 9 News story that showed it on TV 3 days ago.
When I was about 13 or 14, I was dealing with a lot of anxiety. For some
reason, I took a razor blade and started cutting on my arms. They were not
deep cuts. They were deep enough to slightly draw blood. I forgot about them
until 1992. This was the year I read "Tourette Syndrome and Human Behavior".
It was a little freaky when I saw a picture of a child with the same type of
cut-scratch marks that I had on my arms.
I was invited to a party about 4 years ago by another person with TS. One of
the young women that was there had some deep cuts all over her arms. She had
told me they were self inflicted. It was also kind of freaky.
Several years passed until I met a woman that I married. Several months after
I met my future wife, I told her about my cutting. She silently freaked out.
She told me the reason about a year later. She had gone to a support group of
about 10 women who were sexually abused. Several were victems of incest.
Almost all of these women were cutters!
I don't have a history of sexual abuse. I just did the cutting just like I
pulled out my eyelashes. It was some sort of a stimulation and anxiety releif
mechanism. I do think there is a big difference between the cutting done by
someone with TS and the cutting that I just described. In both cases, cutting
is used as some sort of anxiety relief mechanism.
This is not the most pleasnt subject to write about. I read and observe a lot
about human behavior. This is just one subject that was triggered in my mind by
things that I experienced in the last 2 weeks. Maybe this will help someone
who reads it.
Fred in denver
Sue
>things that I experienced in the last 2 weeks. Maybe this will help someone
>who reads it.
There's also ususally something to read about cutting on
alt.support.depression, or alt.support.depression.manic. If there's
nothing current, folks could search the dejanews archives.
Sue
Fenisz
Sue, this is not something I really want to research. I just know what I did
and felt a strong reaction when I saw a picture of this cutting behavior in
Cummings book and I also saw a color slide when I saw Cummings speak about 4
years ago. I also believe that there is a difference in the Tourette cutting
behavior and that of someone who has emotional problems due to sexual abuse.
I posted because of my strong feelings about incest and the emotional scarring
that I have personally witnessed. When I recieved a e-mail spam trying to
profit on the exploitation of children, I reacted very strongly.
Fred
BlessedBy2
>scarring
>that I have personally witnessed. When I recieved a e-mail spam trying to
>profit on the exploitation of children, I reacted very strongly.
>Fred
Fred, I'm more and more happy that I delete all spam without reading it, as I
missed that AOL e-mail spam that you unfortunately opened. It is very hard to
read about cutting, even when one is somewhat used to it. I mostly enjoyed
"Don't Think About Monkeys," but one chapter of it really knocked me out for a
bit when I was new to TS. I want to remind the new folks here that
self-injurious behaviors, as reported in the soft data in the CATS database,
occur in about 12% of people who are clinically referred, which means that it
probably occurs at a much lower rate in overall community samples, and that
severe injurious behaviors like cutting occur even less. From CATS: "(3) SIB
is reported in only 5% of TS Only, 4% of the ADHD group, but in 15% of OCD and
12% of the combined ADHD+OCD group. It could include skin-picking, nail-biting,
self-punching, etc. " So the 12% number includes minor SIB's like skin-picking
and nail-biting ... BB2
Roger D. Freeman, M.D.
amongst the self-injurious behaviors (SIBs) in our data base. Of
course, not all physicians specify the details (as requested), so as BB2
says, the data is "soft," but if skin-cutting were common, it would be
reported more. In my experience of more than 1,000 clinical cases,
there have been very few (that I saw, or the patients reported).
Clearly it does occur, but I've seen it more often in other disorders
than TS.
Roger D. Freeman, M.D.
Sue
>Sue, this is not something I really want to research.
No problem - I was making a general statement to anyone reading this
thread, as I am with this reply;-)
This morning, I received Concerned Counseling's newsletter (via
e-mail), and among the announcements was:
"OUR CONFERENCES FOR JANUARY are looking very interesting.
.
.
.
Wed., January 27: Dr. Jan Hart, author of "Bodily Harm" and
SELF-INJURY therapist at the Rock Creek Center, on the latest
research and treatment for self-injurers.
Our conferences start at 6 p.m. PST, 7 MTN, 8 CST, 9 EDT. They
are free of charge. Our guests always take your questions. We hold
the conferences in our chatroom "conference room".
http://chat.concernedcounseling.com"
Sue
Vicki Hill
<rfre...@home.com> wrote:
>Of course, not all physicians specify the details (as requested), so as BB2
>says, the data is "soft," but if skin-cutting were common, it would be
>reported more. In my experience of more than 1,000 clinical cases,
>there have been very few (that I saw, or the patients reported).
>Clearly it does occur, but I've seen it more often in other disorders
>than TS.
>
>Roger D. Freeman, M.D.
I just want to remind everyone that the data may be 'soft' in the
opposite direction also. Not everyone who has SIB may report it to any
doctor. Also, people with more severe symptoms may see a combination
of medical professionals - neurologist, psychiatrist, psychologist,
therapist, etc. The clinician who is reporting to the data base may
not have all the information on the patient, but is only reporting the
data that the patient has shared with that particular professional.
And I know people who have been embarrassed to even report stuff like
voices or SIB to ANY professionals, for fear they would be
institutionalized, misdiagnosed as schizophrenic, etc.
My son most likely is a classic example of this type of 'soft'
reporting. When he has a problem with tics or seizures, we see the
neurologist - who I am pretty sure is a reporting clinician to the
CATS database. For the rages, the voices, the other behavioral stuff -
we see the psychiatrist and therapist. I bet if I filled out the CATS
form,I would have checked off more symptoms for my son than the
neurologist would have known about to check off.
We have to take the CATS data as it is...the reporting from
clinicians. Yes, no doubt there are other cases not in the database
with milder symptoms. And yes, there may be more severe symptoms even
among the reported population. But it is the best info we have at this
particular time.
Vicki H.
BB2
Vicki Hill wrote:
Vicki ... these are very good points ... but how can the neurologist effectively
treat if he doesn't have the whole history, symptomatology, etc? He needs to
have the whole picture, or at least one of the various treating doctors do, no?
In other words, one would hope that if he (or anyone else) is filling out the
questionnaire, they would have asked about all of the behaviors and symptoms
listed ... ??? Or that the psychiatrist and neurologist are comparing notes ...
when I was hauling around to several different doctors, I made sure that they
kept each other informed, by sending faxes off to all of them summarizing the
latest in a way that they were obligated to speak to each other or be negligent
<grin> ... BB2
Vicki Hill
>Vicki ... these are very good points ... but how can the neurologist effectively
>treat if he doesn't have the whole history, symptomatology, etc? He needs to
>have the whole picture, or at least one of the various treating doctors do, no?
You are assuming that the neurologist IS the one doing the treating.
The neuro we use has told us he prefers to have a psychiatrist or
psychopharmacologist handling the meds if there seem to be significant
comorbid psychiatric disorders. In my son's case, the psych. sees very
few TS patients, but knows psychopharm. I would be very surprised if
he were involved with the CATS database. However, the neuro
specializes in TS, so I feel sure he is involved with the CATS
database. They do communicate from time to time, but not on a regular
basis - just when specific problems develop that need both to put
their heads together.
Another reason that treatment might be split is insurance. One doc may
be on a particular insurance plan, while the other is not. And it
isn't simply a matter of the family trying to save money...I remember
one neurological hospitalization where the doctors and other pro's had
to waste HOURS of their time because the darn insurance company
wouldn't give the approval for an out-of-network psych. to see the
patient. Nutty, but happens here in the USA's mixed-up 'managed care'
system.
Vicki H.
BB2
Vicki Hill wrote:
> On Sat, 02 Jan 1999 15:19:56 GMT, BB2 <bless...@home.com> wrote:
>
> >Vicki ... these are very good points ... but how can the neurologist effectively
> >treat if he doesn't have the whole history, symptomatology, etc? He needs to
> >have the whole picture, or at least one of the various treating doctors do, no?
>
> You are assuming that the neurologist IS the one doing the treating.
> The neuro we use has told us he prefers to have a psychiatrist or
> psychopharmacologist handling the meds if there seem to be significant
> comorbid psychiatric disorders. In my son's case, the psych. sees very
> few TS patients, but knows psychopharm. I would be very surprised if
> he were involved with the CATS database. However, the neuro
> specializes in TS, so I feel sure he is involved with the CATS
> database. They do communicate from time to time, but not on a regular
> basis - just when specific problems develop that need both to put
> their heads together.
Well, my next question was going to be, then why see the neuro, but you answered that
below ... now I get it ... BB2
Fenisz
underrepresented. The only reason I know of my SIB is because I went to
Cummings workshops where I saw pictures of "cutting" and he talked about
eyelash pulling . As a parent, I bet your child will never admit to the type
of behavior. Most children know what is normal and what is not and I bet they
would never admit to this type of abnormal behavior. I don't know if I would
even want to call it a severe type of SIB rather than a type of stimulation.
Even when I cut, I would never cut deep. Not for fear of being caught but
because I never liked pain.
Fred
L. Baker
Vicki Hill wrote in message ...
Not everyone who has SIB may report it to any
>doctor. Also, people with more severe symptoms may see a combination
>of medical professionals - neurologist, psychiatrist, psychologist,
>therapist, etc.
When my then 9 year old began his cutting- the therapist didn't believe me
and said he was too young. He did this to stop the pain from the rages and
then undiagnosed TS/OCD. It was hard to accept this behavior in one so young
and I didn't want to tell anyone..but of course we did.
.
>And I know people who have been embarrassed to even report stuff like
>voices or SIB to ANY professionals, for fear they would be
>institutionalized, misdiagnosed as schizophrenic, etc.
My son didn't want me to tell anyone. We shared this info with our
wonderful Psychiatrist when making the Dx. I am going to have to check with
our Doctor to see if he reports to the CATS data base since he is involved
so much with research and the TS spectrum.
Lyn
Vicki Hill
>Well, my next question was going to be, then why see the neuro, but you answered that
>below ... now I get it ... BB2
More to it than that for us. We are all pretty sure my son has PANDAS
and a seizure disorder. When those things rear their head, we need the
neurologist. But when rages, voices, etc. are the big problems, we
need the psychiatrist.
Vicki H.
Vicki Hill
>The only reason I know of my SIB is because I went to
>Cummings workshops where I saw pictures of "cutting" and he talked about
>eyelash pulling . As a parent, I bet your child will never admit to the type
>of behavior. Most children know what is normal and what is not and I bet they
>would never admit to this type of abnormal behavior.
Actually, my son went through a couple of years of eyelash pulling. I
watched him do it many a time - and the missing eyelashes and eyebrows
made it evident to anybody who saw him. I'm not aware of any actualy
cutting that he has done, but he has bitten his wrists on purpose
during bad periods. But you are right...many people would go to great
lengths to hide this sort of stuff and, unless they were asked about
it specifically, might not even think to bring it up to the doctor.
I have a friend who told me she heard background 'voices' in her head
for years, starting in childhood. So long and so background that she
truly didn't realize that this wasn't common and routine. Only after
they went away with a med change did she realize she had been
experiencing a symptom. But in all those years she had never mentioned
it to a doctor, because she didn't realize it was something she SHOULD
mention.
Vicki H.
Fenisz
>watched him do it many a time - and the missing eyelashes and eyebrows
>made it evident to anybody who saw him. I'm not aware of any actualy
>cutting that he has done, but he has bitten his wrists on purpose
>during bad periods. But you are right...many people would go to great
>lengths to hide this sort of stuff and, unless they were asked about
>it specifically, might not even think to bring it up to the doctor.
>
>
I used to get compliments on my beautiful eyelashes! They were long and curley.
When you pull them out, they grow back longer. I think that it is a little
unusual getting a compliment about your eyelashes-especially a guy. I got
compliments several times. I always thought to myself "If they only knew". It
was my little secret.
Fred
Roger D. Freeman, M.D.
You make interesting points, and I agree with you. Bear in mind,
though, that 80% of cases are from psychiatrists, who do tend to report
molre of some kinds of symptoms than do neurologists, on average.
Roger
Vicki Hill wrote:
>
> On Fri, 01 Jan 1999 19:43:24 GMT, "Roger D. Freeman, M.D."
> <rfre...@home.com> wrote:
>
> >Of course, not all physicians specify the details (as requested), so as BB2
> >says, the data is "soft," but if skin-cutting were common, it would be
> >reported more. In my experience of more than 1,000 clinical cases,
> >there have been very few (that I saw, or the patients reported).
> >Clearly it does occur, but I've seen it more often in other disorders
> >than TS.
> >
> >Roger D. Freeman, M.D.
>
> I just want to remind everyone that the data may be 'soft' in the
> opposite direction also. Not everyone who has SIB may report it to any
> doctor. Also, people with more severe symptoms may see a combination
> of medical professionals - neurologist, psychiatrist, psychologist,
> therapist, etc. The clinician who is reporting to the data base may
> not have all the information on the patient, but is only reporting the
> data that the patient has shared with that particular professional.
> And I know people who have been embarrassed to even report stuff like
> voices or SIB to ANY professionals, for fear they would be
> institutionalized, misdiagnosed as schizophrenic, etc.
>
> My son most likely is a classic example of this type of 'soft'
> reporting. When he has a problem with tics or seizures, we see the
> neurologist - who I am pretty sure is a reporting clinician to the
> CATS database. For the rages, the voices, the other behavioral stuff -
> we see the psychiatrist and therapist. I bet if I filled out the CATS
> form,I would have checked off more symptoms for my son than the
> neurologist would have known about to check off.
>
Roger D. Freeman, M.D.
to ensure good communication. But of course even with this, some
symptoms are not admitted for years, even in therapy with a
psychiatrist.
Roger
> Vicki ... these are very good points ... but how can the neurologist effectively
> treat if he doesn't have the whole history, symptomatology, etc? He needs to
> have the whole picture, or at least one of the various treating doctors do, no?
> In other words, one would hope that if he (or anyone else) is filling out the
> questionnaire, they would have asked about all of the behaviors and symptoms
> listed ... ??? Or that the psychiatrist and neurologist are comparing notes ...
> when I was hauling around to several different doctors, I made sure that they
> kept each other informed, by sending faxes off to all of them summarizing the
> latest in a way that they were obligated to speak to each other or be negligent
> <grin> ... BB2
>
> >
> >
Roger D. Freeman, M.D.
Roger