A new tic definition
OverLoad
of years and have seen confirmation of a lot of the things our 9 YO
daughter does. She was diagnosed with TS, OCD and ADHD at age 6, but
in retrospect, we began seeing tics at the age of about 1 year. She is
being medicated and seeing a therapist weekly, and is in a regular
school with learning support.
Recently my wife attended a TSA seminar and gained some interesting
information that makes sense. We wanted to pass along some of this
information so that it might help some other parents understand what
is going on, and to find out if anyone else had heard of any of these.
Here we go:
Brain Tics: show up as visions or words in the brain. We have been
told by our daughter "The devil told me that" or "God is talking to
me". Visions and words can manifest as night terrors, visions of
ghosts, robots, mutilated body parts, objects flying around the room,
causing sleep disorders and waking her up. She has tics all night
long, arms and legs ticcing and hitting the wall, hoots, amazing
arguments as she talks in her sleep. We have noticed that the tics are
generally worse after the house is completely quiet at night. It was
suggested that we have a TV or radio going in her room to keep a
certain noise level present to keep the brain somewhat active and
focused on the noise instead of letting it wander off in terror land.
That seems reasonable, as an intensely focused physical activity
reduces certain motor tics.
Genital tics: We have seen what we thought was an obsession with our
daughter in a fascination with male body parts, to the point of
attaching various objects to her dolls to make them boys. For a few
years she had reached out and touched adult female breasts (a little
difficult to explain to a stranger in the store) and reaching out to
touch males in the genital area. It seemed odd for an obsession, as it
seemed to wax and wane. Wow - just like a tic. This tic definition is
a new concept for us, so we'll be working on it. By the way, the
breast-touching seems to have been contained to herself now, since the
medications have caused early development for her. It was suggested
that a scrunchy ball or a piece of rough sandpaper in her pocket might
be a substitute for the genital touching, since it may be a sensory
tic. If nothing else, it is a way she can redirect the tic the same
way a motor tic can be reduced by focused physical activity. The
attachment of certain male parts to a doll has been her way of gaining
the avenue for touching boys, since we forbid her to try to touch real
boys there.
Sensory tics: She is back to jamming pencils into her hand, and poking
at her face and eyes. At times, we believe, she loses pain sensation
(might be numbness, we haven't found the vocabulary for her to
describe this one yet) and she is attempting to recover the sensory
function. At other times, a minor bump that other kids would totally
ignore results in hysterical screaming and crying as if she was being
dismembered. This one waxes and wanes also. Hmmmm. I guess we have to
work on this one too, before she attempts abdominal surgery on herself
(ha ha).
Our daughter has a lot of tics and most have been successfully
addressed (thanks to a wonderful therapist and a great faculty and
staff at her school) and she is making progress in school. We taught
her to use small, focused physical activities to reduce her tics, when
she recognizes them or when directed to do so. Her teachers have been
directed to use a hands-on approach (such as a back rubbing technique
when she is writing or reading) and they were astounded at how well it
worked.
We hope this little bit helps some other folks out there, and maybe
some others might pass along some help to us!
Its the coffee talking
>information that makes sense.
May I ask what seminar? I have been to one recently too , though I had not
heard what you've detailed below at the one I attended.
>Genital tics: We have seen what we thought was an obsession with our
I think this would fall under the umbrella of socially taboo
tics/compulsions... why the need to further distinguish this from other
*forbidden* behaviors? (i.e. a genital tic vs. an oppositional or defiant tic,
or spitting, or swearing?)
Perhaps more importantly, does it matter if it is a "compulsion" as you've
thought for years? Or a "genital tic" that you've now picked up from a
seminar? The behavior is unchanged... the definitions dubious for all of us...
the more important thing in my opinion is how you handle it/work on it... does
changing what you call it, change how you plan to handle it? It sounds to me
like you are already working on handling it both as a family and with the
weekly therapy meetings....which is great.
It also sounds that you have found that creating *cancelory* sensations work
well for your daughter, i.e. the noise (sound) at night cancels out the
agitation of the night terrors, and the back rubs (touch) cancels out the
distractions preventing the writing and reading. I'm wondering it these are
not unlike techniques used for autistic traits too?
Any techniques that have worked for individuals are always of interest IMHO!
Marietta
<font size=2>I give permission for my words to be copied or quoted for personal
use ONLY. Permision required for re-printing or quoting in any form of mass
distribution, with exception of quoting to respond on this board. All rights
reserved</font>
John Morten Malerbakken
Without answering to the details of your post regarding "other" tics, I
tried to raise this question some time ago, but was quickly "put in place"
by the defenders of the "right" medical discipline. (No offence to anyone,
but it is difficult for a amateur to argument with the doctors).
I tried to test an ida I had, that tics are more than just sounds and
movements. Since I see so many having "tics of the mind" (probably diagnosed
as ADD or part of ADHD), I just wonder if what we see there are the same as
the more physical tics. That the mind flip-flops in all directions at the
time.
Some people are suffering under this "mental ticing", while some seem to be
ablet o use it for creative purposes.
As I read your post, you are speaking about approximately the same thing. I
find the thought interesting and would like to discuss it further. Be aware
that by doing so, we would be challenging the current definitions of what
tics and otehr conditions are, so wear your "flak-vest". There is nothing
wrong by constantly putting such definitions under debate though.
Have a nice day.
John Morten
Clayton Smith
you'd post which seminar this was. I also wanted to ask if you'd let us know
the name of the speaker that talked about these tic categories.
BlessedBy2
I would be interested in this info as well.
BB2
Tourette Syndrome - Now What?
http://members.home.net/blessedby2
KATHRYN A TAUBERT
>
> We hope this little bit helps some other folks out there, and maybe
> some others might pass along some help to us!
>
Glad you decided to 'unlurk' for the moment. Thanks for thinking of us. Do
you mind if I ask you which "TSA seminar" it was at which you heard this
information about 'brain and genital' tics?
KAT In CT
KATHRYN A TAUBERT
There is nothing
> wrong by constantly putting such definitions under debate though.
>
> Have a nice day.
>
> John Morten
>
John, there is nothing wrong, IMO, with putting ANY definition through
debate from time to time.
KAT in CT
>
John Morten Malerbakken
I have never attended a seminar regarding TS in the US. I am a Norwegian
living in Sweden.
John Morten
"Clayton Smith" <claytonsmit...@pdq.net> wrote in message
news:33BF0A99AEEA26CA.F6E99ADE...@lp.airnews.net...
OverLoad
talking) wrote:
>>Recently my wife attended a TSA seminar and gained some interesting
>>information that makes sense.
>
>May I ask what seminar? I have been to one recently too , though I had not
>heard what you've detailed below at the one I attended.
>
It was in Scranton, Pennsylvania on April 20, by the PA-TSA. The key
speakers were Thomas Cadman, M.D., retired Child Neurologist, and Mary
Lou Reaver, R.N., Executive Director, PA-TSA. Doctor Cadman provided
clinical information and Mary Lou provided additional information
about directly working with the TS persons.
>>Genital tics: We have seen what we thought was an obsession with our
>
>I think this would fall under the umbrella of socially taboo
>tics/compulsions... why the need to further distinguish this from other
>*forbidden* behaviors? (i.e. a genital tic vs. an oppositional or defiant tic,
>or spitting, or swearing?)
>
Of course it falls under the "socially taboo" category, but possibly
by getting it in the correct slot, we can address it as a tic rather
than an oppositional defiant problem (yeah, we have that too, and we
try to not give that attention as OD kids need the response by the
parent or adult in authority to feed the disorder). Treating it as a
tic requires a completely different response (and Mom can deal with it
better as a tic not a nine-year-old nymphomaniac - ha ha ha).
Pharmacologically speaking, the Prozac will probably do little or
nothing for that particular tic.
>Perhaps more importantly, does it matter if it is a "compulsion" as you've
>thought for years? Or a "genital tic" that you've now picked up from a
>seminar? The behavior is unchanged... the definitions dubious for all of us...
>the more important thing in my opinion is how you handle it/work on it... does
>changing what you call it, change how you plan to handle it? It sounds to me
>like you are already working on handling it both as a family and with the
>weekly therapy meetings....which is great.
>
See above
>It also sounds that you have found that creating *cancelory* sensations work
>well for your daughter, i.e. the noise (sound) at night cancels out the
>agitation of the night terrors, and the back rubs (touch) cancels out the
>distractions preventing the writing and reading. I'm wondering it these are
>not unlike techniques used for autistic traits too?
>
Having only minimal experiences with autism, we have also applied the
back-rubbing technique with an autistic child with some success.
>Any techniques that have worked for individuals are always of interest IMHO!
>
>Marietta
><font size=2>I give permission for my words to be copied or quoted for personal
>use ONLY. Permision required for re-printing or quoting in any form of mass
>distribution, with exception of quoting to respond on this board. All rights
>reserved</font>
The key speakers at the recent TSA seminar were Thomas Cadman, M.D.,
retired Child Neurologist, and Mary Lou Reaver, R.N., Executive
Director, PA-TSA. Doctor Cadman provided clinical information and Mary
Lou provided additional information about directly working with the TS
persons.
OverLoad
<John....@swipnet.se> wrote:
>
>Without answering to the details of your post regarding "other" tics, I
>tried to raise this question some time ago, but was quickly "put in place"
>by the defenders of the "right" medical discipline. (No offence to anyone,
>but it is difficult for a amateur to argument with the doctors).
>
We don't generally argue with doctors, but instead, ask a bucketfull
of questions that come out as "what ifs". Maybe we are fortunate in
that the professionals we personally deal with are open-minded and
willing to look past the conventional wisdoms to better treat the
child. That is not to say that they violate any conventional
practices, but do not mind trying to see the situation from our point
of view. (By the way, my wife has been known to place phone calls all
over the country and even a couple of other countries to gain
information to help a child. You don't want to see our phone bill - ha
ha)
>I tried to test an ida I had, that tics are more than just sounds and
>movements. Since I see so many having "tics of the mind" (probably diagnosed
>as ADD or part of ADHD), I just wonder if what we see there are the same as
>the more physical tics. That the mind flip-flops in all directions at the
>time.
>
>Some people are suffering under this "mental ticing", while some seem to be
>ablet o use it for creative purposes.
>
Using the tics to be creative, or not allowing the tics to overcome
creativeness, is an example of learning to live with the tics, rather
than using the tics to become a martyr.
>As I read your post, you are speaking about approximately the same thing. I
>find the thought interesting and would like to discuss it further. Be aware
>that by doing so, we would be challenging the current definitions of what
>tics and otehr conditions are, so wear your "flak-vest". There is nothing
>wrong by constantly putting such definitions under debate though.
>
>Have a nice day.
>
>John Morten
>
Well, we don't mind, in fact encourage, intelligent conversation about
the disorders we have to deal with and help the kids with, By
battering around concepts we have discovered new avenues to use to
help the kids. (Unfortunately, my wife and I do not have TS or TS+, so
we have to learn from the kids that do. As they grow older and their
communication skills improve, we are able to better understand what
they are feeling and what they are experiencing.)
OverLoad
<KATA...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
>There is nothing
>> wrong by constantly putting such definitions under debate though.
>>
>> Have a nice day.
>>
>> John Morten
>>
>
>John, there is nothing wrong, IMO, with putting ANY definition through
>debate from time to time.
>KAT in CT
>>
>
Thank you
OverLoad
<claytonsmit...@pdq.net> wrote:
>This is interesting. Marietta (Its the coffee talking) has already asked if
>you'd post which seminar this was. I also wanted to ask if you'd let us know
>the name of the speaker that talked about these tic categories.
>
Check out the reply to Marietta
OverLoad
wrote:
>Clayton Smith wrote:
>
>> This is interesting. Marietta (Its the coffee talking) has already asked if
>> you'd post which seminar this was. I also wanted to ask if you'd let us know
>> the name of the speaker that talked about these tic categories.
>
>I would be interested in this info as well.
>BB2
>Tourette Syndrome - Now What?
>http://members.home.net/blessedby2
PA-TSA conference at Scranton, PA on April 20
btw - the same speakers should be at a seminar listed by PA-TSA at
the Ramada Inn, DuBois, PA on April 28
OverLoad
It was held in Scranton, PA on April 20. The same speakers are listed
in the PA-TSA newsletter as presenters at an upcoming conference in
DuBois, PA at the Ramada Inn on April 28.
Ziggy99
Never heard of a brain tic.>Brain Tics: show up as visions or words in the
brain. We have been
>told by our daughter "The devil told me that" or "God is talking to
>me". Visions and words can manifest as night terrors, visions of
>ghosts, robots, mutilated body parts, objects flying around the room,
>causing sleep disorders and waking her up.
That doesn't usually fall into any TS tic that I've ever heard. Almost sounds
schizophrnic. I'm glad she has a good therapist.
Also, I heard somewhere that when a person is sleeping, they usually don't tic,
(can't say for myself though, since I don't have a video camera to tape me
while I sleep)
Anyway, good luck with your daughter.
James
BlessedBy2
> On 21 Apr 2000 17:10:28 GMT, marie...@aol.com (Its the coffee
> talking) wrote:
>
> >>Recently my wife attended a TSA seminar and gained some interesting
> >>information that makes sense.
> >
> >May I ask what seminar? I have been to one recently too , though I had not
> >heard what you've detailed below at the one I attended.
> >
> It was in Scranton, Pennsylvania on April 20, by the PA-TSA. The key
> speakers were Thomas Cadman, M.D., retired Child Neurologist, and Mary
> Lou Reaver, R.N., Executive Director, PA-TSA. Doctor Cadman provided
> clinical information and Mary Lou provided additional information
> about directly working with the TS persons.
Some of the activity which you refer to as "brain tics" seems to describe the night
terrors and voices which may be associated with bipolar disorder, while the
self-injurious behaviors and what you describe as "genital tics" could be associated
with the compulsions of OCD. (There are some links at the bottom of the favorite
links page on my website which discuss the differences between bipolar and ADHD.)
Bipolar disorder is often missed in children, and treating it with an appropriate
pharmacological approach can be very important for a good prognosis. Early
detection is key. There are some stories on the "Stories" page of my website from
persons discussing the importance in sorting out their (or their children's)
diagnoses and how important it was to get the right diagnosis, hence, the right
treatment. I hope that info will be helpful to you and your child. There is also a
wealth of info about bipolar disorder on Leslie's webpage,
http://www.tourettesyndrome.net .
Can you tell us more about the retired neurologist, Dr. Cadman? I haven't heard his
name before, and wonder how PA TSA located him as a speaker? Does he treat many TS
patients in your area? Is it correct to assume that he coined the exact words for
these new tic definitions (brain and genital tics), or were those the words your
wife chose in her explanation of what she learned at the conference? Did he provide
any handouts discussing brain and genital tics? I would be surprised (but not too
surprised, based on my past conference experiences :-) if the TSA or its
representatives were to put out a "new tic definition" in this form ...
John Morten Malerbakken
"OverLoad" <fat...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:ued1gs08qb179g47k...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 21 Apr 2000 20:27:13 +0200, "John Morten Malerbakken"
> <John....@swipnet.se> wrote:
>
> >
> >Without answering to the details of your post regarding "other" tics, I
> >tried to raise this question some time ago, but was quickly "put in
place"
> >by the defenders of the "right" medical discipline. (No offence to
anyone,
> >but it is difficult for a amateur to argument with the doctors).
> >
> We don't generally argue with doctors, but instead, ask a bucketfull
> of questions that come out as "what ifs".
That is one area where you will find that we are different. If there is one
thing I really do, it is to question what doctors say and mean. I do not
trust that their assessments are correct in the first and maybe not even in
the second or third either. I have met too many incompetent doctors not to
question everyting which is said. In the journal fiel for one of our boys at
a hospital in Norway, the doctor has written "Very resourceful parents!" as
a way of saying that he considered us a problem as we kept asking new
questions and making him re-evaluate his first diagnosis, which was wrong. I
am proud of that entry.
> Maybe we are fortunate in
> that the professionals we personally deal with are open-minded and
> willing to look past the conventional wisdoms to better treat the
> child. That is not to say that they violate any conventional
> practices, but do not mind trying to see the situation from our point
> of view. (By the way, my wife has been known to place phone calls all
> over the country and even a couple of other countries to gain
> information to help a child. You don't want to see our phone bill - ha
> ha)
Maybe we should compare bills then. Mine is bigger than yours ?!? ;-)))
>
> >I tried to test an ida I had, that tics are more than just sounds and
> >movements. Since I see so many having "tics of the mind" (probably
diagnosed
> >as ADD or part of ADHD), I just wonder if what we see there are the same
as
> >the more physical tics. That the mind flip-flops in all directions at the
> >time.
> >
> >Some people are suffering under this "mental ticing", while some seem to
be
> >ablet o use it for creative purposes.
> >
> Using the tics to be creative, or not allowing the tics to overcome
> creativeness, is an example of learning to live with the tics, rather
> than using the tics to become a martyr.
Absolutely. Do I read from your statement that you would consider a
"fluttering" mind a kind of brain-tic? I have had this idea for quite some
time, but find that many people seem very occupied by placing that into some
other, already defined "diagnostic box". By all means, that is well and
good, but since we are dealing with a Syndrome, the whole idea as I
understand it, is not to box things in.
I agree with you that it could be an easy way out to be a martyr of your TS.
Since there are so many "strengths" of TS, and it takes on so many different
shapes and colours, I fully understand if some resolve to that. As the
symptoms varies over time, there has been (and will probably bee) times
where I felt like just giving up. But...
Some years back we had a thread going here which dealt with "living with
TS". Some of us discussed what our lives would be like if we did not have
TS. The conclusion (not by vote) seemed to be that being a person with TS
was all taht we knew, and that we could not be any different, i.e. most of
us have learned to make a lfe with it. That is the only way to go on in my
opinion.
Back to the idea about "mental tics". I have to describe a little bit about
myself in order to try to make people understand what I am trying to day
here. I have alweays been very creative in the way that I very quickly come
up with unconvetional solutions to challenges. I am also a good singer with
creativity related to music, which may be the same thing. I claim that this
creativity is the result of my brain firing in all directions at the same ti
me, Throuhg the large number of ideas that keep popping up, I have, through
years of trial and error (lots of error!) developed a feeling for which
ideas that might fly. That is what has taken me where I am today.
The discussion would be whether a creative mind (or a mind going in all
strange diretions) is the result of TS or not. I claim that it actually
might be. I do not see a logic saying that tics are related to only
uncontrollable sounds and movements. To me it seem equally logical that
since the brain is firing impulses to move an arm and say "huh", it will
also trigger thought activity. That activity can be randomly or in fixed
patterns, but I claim it is there.
Following that line of thiking, one conclusion could be that ADD is one
result of the brain being engaged in all sorts of different tasks at the
same time, so that the focus is shifted all the time. You would not believe
the time it has taken me to learn how to stay focused, and the amount of
energy I spend on just being concentrated.
OK, I have given it a shot once more, so I lay myself open to be boxed in.
You are all welcome to try.
(I really miss beeing put into the famous royal closet again. I always
found that to be one of the best things that existed here. I wish that the
royal matron of the closet would come back.)
> >As I read your post, you are speaking about approximately the same thing.
I
> >find the thought interesting and would like to discuss it further. Be
aware
> >that by doing so, we would be challenging the current definitions of what
> >tics and otehr conditions are, so wear your "flak-vest". There is nothing
> >wrong by constantly putting such definitions under debate though.
> >
> >Have a nice day.
> >
> >John Morten
> >
> Well, we don't mind, in fact encourage, intelligent conversation about
> the disorders we have to deal with and help the kids with.
I have 4 boys (17, 13, 12, and 8), some of them with TS, but they are all
very different. You will have to make your own judgement about intelligence,
but we could certainly share a few things reltaed to children and
up-bringing when you feel like it.
> By
> battering around concepts we have discovered new avenues to use to
> help the kids. (Unfortunately, my wife and I do not have TS or TS+, so
> we have to learn from the kids that do.
Not quite. When discussing with people in this newsgroup you will have
adults with TS answering to you and also discuss with you. I am one of them.
That is probably the best source you have, so just keep posting questions.
> As they grow older and their
> communication skills improve, we are able to better understand what
> they are feeling and what they are experiencing.)
And by taking part in discussions here you will be able to help them
understand what they are feeling.
John Morten
Its the coffee talking
>these new tic definitions (brain and genital tics), or were those the words
>your
>wife chose in her explanation of what she learned at the conference? Did he
>provide
>any handouts discussing brain and genital tics? I would be surprised (but
>not too
>surprised, based on my past conference experiences :-) if the TSA or its
>representatives were to put out a "new tic definition" in this form ...
>
>BB2
>Tourette Syndrome - Now What?
>http://members.home.net/blessedby2
>
classifying tics? Toe tics, finger tics, etc... I think if we broke down tics
to "regions" we could end up with a fairly large diagnostic criteria. I do
understand how correctly identifying a behavior as a compulsion or a tic can
help assist in dealing with it, or treatment of it if necessary... (I still
believe most tics don't need to be *treated*)... but I still maintain the best
way for either *cause* is to not make a big deal about the behaviors.. not to
*seat* them.... and if this is beyond possibility -- then to modify the
environment, (which sounds like this is what has been done successfully)... my
child has a mechanical touching compulsion/tic, (there how's that? I came up
with a new definition too? <G>)....he likes gears, buttons, anything that
looks industrial... and I'm sure that this compulsion to touch these objects
are what caused him to get his hand stuck up in the vending machine at Chucky
Cheese's... so now, I scrutinize any of our public outings, if there are
*forbidden* buttons, light switches, knobs, gears... I either steer him in the
opposite direction, or we leave, -- this is one of those ways we parents are
always on duty... I would at times love *not to worry* the way I assume the
other parents around me appear to be... I've been chided for *worrying* by
other parents... when I *listened* to them over my own instinct, of what I knew
best about my son and his behaviors, is when we got into trouble... but nothing
that 911 and the jaws-of-life couldn't get us out of!
Marietta.
John Morten Malerbakken
My oldest son, who was diagnosed with TS years ago, have always been
"haunted" by what he describes vaguely as "bad thoughts". He has physical
and vocal tics, difficulties concentrating etc., but his main problem has
always been his dreams and his fear of sleeping because of those dreams. He
has now taken himself off medication and is fighting his "ghost" with great
efforts (Sometimes it is good to have a brother in the other room who think
it is OK to come in and sleep over on his couch.)
I have not cared so much about if this is part of the TS definition or not,
but I know anxiety is clearly one possible problem for TS persons. In my
son's case an in the case described below, the reason for the anxiety has
been given a name through the words of a child.
Maybe it is bordering into other diagnostic "boxes", but saying that it is
unheard of is a bit strong the way I see it.
John Morten
"Ziggy99" <jjam...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000421192928...@ng-ca1.aol.com...
John Morten Malerbakken
one little advice to you. Always read carefully what is written by BB2 and
look closely at what is written on her and Leslie's pages. That is excellent
stuff.
And then we should continue the discussion regarding "boxing" in the
diagnosis.
John Morten
"BlessedBy2" <bless...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3901BA8E...@home.com...
> patients in your area? Is it correct to assume that he coined the exact
OverLoad
wrote:
This is the input we are seeking. I hope nobody thought we presumed to
introduce a whole new facet of TS to this most knowledgeable group. We
were more posing a question to see if this made sense to any one else
besides us. Not having been the route for as long, nor have had as
much experience, we look to those who have been there to help us.
>
>Can you tell us more about the retired neurologist, Dr. Cadman? I haven't heard his
>name before, and wonder how PA TSA located him as a speaker? Does he treat many TS
>patients in your area? Is it correct to assume that he coined the exact words for
>these new tic definitions (brain and genital tics), or were those the words your
>wife chose in her explanation of what she learned at the conference? Did he provide
>any handouts discussing brain and genital tics? I would be surprised (but not too
>surprised, based on my past conference experiences :-) if the TSA or its
>representatives were to put out a "new tic definition" in this form ...
>
Dr. Cadman is a retired Child Neurologist from Geisinger Medical
Center in Danville, PA. We have had no previous personal experience
with this gentleman, but Geisinger has a remarkable reputation in
northeastern Pennsylvania for the dedication and quality care of it's
doctors.
The term "brain tics" came from Mary Lou Reaver, R.N., Executive
Director of PA-TSA. The concept of genital touching being possibly a
tic rather than a compulsion was a suggestion Mary Lou made.
OverLoad
talking) wrote:
>>Is it correct to assume that he coined the exact words for
>>these new tic definitions (brain and genital tics), or were those the words
>>your
>>wife chose in her explanation of what she learned at the conference? Did he
>>provide
>>any handouts discussing brain and genital tics? I would be surprised (but
>>not too
>>surprised, based on my past conference experiences :-) if the TSA or its
>>representatives were to put out a "new tic definition" in this form ...
>>
>>BB2
>>Tourette Syndrome - Now What?
>>http://members.home.net/blessedby2
>>
>Well, perhaps this is what I was picking up on... I mean... when do you stop
>classifying tics? Toe tics, finger tics, etc... I think if we broke down tics
>to "regions" we could end up with a fairly large diagnostic criteria. I do
>understand how correctly identifying a behavior as a compulsion or a tic can
>help assist in dealing with it, or treatment of it if necessary... (I still
>believe most tics don't need to be *treated*)... but I still maintain the best
>way for either *cause* is to not make a big deal about the behaviors.. not to
>*seat* them.... and if this is beyond possibility -- then to modify the
>environment, (which sounds like this is what has been done successfully)
Agreed. Classifying the activity as a tic rather than a compulsion is
not as important as how we would approach the behavior modification,
as it were. Tics generally don't need to be treated, as far as we can
tell, but it might be more logical to modify the tic if it were
construed by a young male as a sexual advance.
... my
>child has a mechanical touching compulsion/tic, (there how's that? I came up
>with a new definition too? <G>)....he likes gears, buttons, anything that
>looks industrial... and I'm sure that this compulsion to touch these objects
>are what caused him to get his hand stuck up in the vending machine at Chucky
>Cheese's... so now, I scrutinize any of our public outings, if there are
>*forbidden* buttons, light switches, knobs, gears... I either steer him in the
>opposite direction, or we leave, -- this is one of those ways we parents are
>always on duty... I would at times love *not to worry* the way I assume the
>other parents around me appear to be... I've been chided for *worrying* by
>other parents... when I *listened* to them over my own instinct, of what I knew
>best about my son and his behaviors, is when we got into trouble... but nothing
>that 911 and the jaws-of-life couldn't get us out of!
>
>Marietta.
lol - haven't had that mechanical touching compulsion/tic pop up yet,
but thanks for the warning :-)
OverLoad
<John....@swipnet.se> wrote:
>I do not know how long "Overload" has been around this newsgroup, but I have
>one little advice to you. Always read carefully what is written by BB2 and
>look closely at what is written on her and Leslie's pages. That is excellent
>stuff.
>
We've been lurking around this NG for about 2 years, and BB2 has
provided an incredible amount of information, as has Leslie. And their
web pages are full of great stuff!
>And then we should continue the discussion regarding "boxing" in the
>diagnosis.
>
Can do - but let's start a different thread for that.
>John Morten
>
>"BlessedBy2" <bless...@home.com> wrote in message
>news:3901BA8E...@home.com...
>> OverLoad wrote:
>>
>> > On 21 Apr 2000 17:10:28 GMT, marie...@aol.com (Its the coffee
>> Can you tell us more about the retired neurologist, Dr. Cadman? I haven't
>heard his
>> name before, and wonder how PA TSA located him as a speaker? Does he
>treat many TS
>> patients in your area? Is it correct to assume that he coined the exact
OverLoad
<John....@swipnet.se> wrote:
rofl
>>
>> >I tried to test an ida I had, that tics are more than just sounds and
>> >movements. Since I see so many having "tics of the mind" (probably
>diagnosed
>> >as ADD or part of ADHD), I just wonder if what we see there are the same
>as
>> >the more physical tics. That the mind flip-flops in all directions at the
>> >time.
>> >
>> >Some people are suffering under this "mental ticing", while some seem to
>be
>> >ablet o use it for creative purposes.
>> >
>> Using the tics to be creative, or not allowing the tics to overcome
>> creativeness, is an example of learning to live with the tics, rather
>> than using the tics to become a martyr.
>
>Absolutely. Do I read from your statement that you would consider a
>"fluttering" mind a kind of brain-tic? I have had this idea for quite some
>time, but find that many people seem very occupied by placing that into some
>other, already defined "diagnostic box". By all means, that is well and
>good, but since we are dealing with a Syndrome, the whole idea as I
>understand it, is not to box things in.
>
I personally don't care if you want to call it widgets, as long as
there is a way to deal with it in a productive manner. As far as
labeling something a tic rather than a compulsion or obsession might
basically warrant a look at changing the medications, or possibly a
different approach in modifying a socially unacceptable behavior, or
it may mean nothing significant needs to be changed. How's that
running in a circle?
It's the brain that has the misfiring synapses, so why should it just
be confined to motor functions? The swearing tic seems to use a block
of memory that stores those words. (Hope that I don't need to get out
the flak jacket now.) I have considered that dreams could be a similar
thing, as no brain (from all those people I am familiar with,
including my own) functions absolutely perfectly. Could it be that the
dreams are a result of the brain firing randomly after a hard day? Why
are visions at night, nightmares and night terrors so much different?
Children are always interesting topics, but maybe in a different
thread.
>> By
>> battering around concepts we have discovered new avenues to use to
>> help the kids. (Unfortunately, my wife and I do not have TS or TS+, so
>> we have to learn from the kids that do.
>
>Not quite. When discussing with people in this newsgroup you will have
>adults with TS answering to you and also discuss with you. I am one of them.
>That is probably the best source you have, so just keep posting questions.
>
Will do, and thanks. As I said in my first post, we have lurked here
for a while. There is an incredible amount of knowledge to be gained
from this group. Thank you all for that.
>> As they grow older and their
>> communication skills improve, we are able to better understand what
>> they are feeling and what they are experiencing.)
>
>And by taking part in discussions here you will be able to help them
>understand what they are feeling.
>
That is our desire.
>John Morten
>
>
>
OverLoad
>I'm no doctor, but it sounds like there is more going on there than TS/OCD/ADD.
>
>Never heard of a brain tic.>Brain Tics: show up as visions or words in the
>brain. We have been
>>told by our daughter "The devil told me that" or "God is talking to
>>me". Visions and words can manifest as night terrors, visions of
>>ghosts, robots, mutilated body parts, objects flying around the room,
>>causing sleep disorders and waking her up.
>
>That doesn't usually fall into any TS tic that I've ever heard. Almost sounds
>schizophrnic. I'm glad she has a good therapist.
>
Good point. That's part of the reason we threw this stuff at this NG -
for some input and thoughts.
>Also, I heard somewhere that when a person is sleeping, they usually don't tic,
>(can't say for myself though, since I don't have a video camera to tape me
>while I sleep)
>
I can't vouch for others with TS, but our daughter has destroyed 3
beds in the last 2 years from her rolling, bouncing and bumping. And
the hoots, snorts, sniffs, etc. go on all night long.
>Anyway, good luck with your daughter.
>
Thanks :-)
>James
KATHRYN A TAUBERT
> lol - haven't had that mechanical touching compulsion/tic pop up yet,
> but thanks for the warning :-)
My niece has had the 'mechanical touching' thing since she was a child.
She is now a Boeing aerospace engineer under contract to NASA, helping to
build
the International Space Station. I think it all started when she discovered
a screwdriver around the house and started using it on her grandfather's
car.....
"-))) (sorry y'all, I just COULDNT resist this one.....)
KAT In CT
PS, it's true. She did, and she is.
BlessedBy2
> OK, I have given it a shot once more, so I lay myself open to be boxed in.
> You are all welcome to try.
> (I really miss beeing put into the famous royal closet again. I always
> found that to be one of the best things that existed here. I wish that the
> royal matron of the closet would come back.)
>
Speaking out of turn, but I dare say that the Royal Queen HR wasn't supported
here on ast as well as she might have been.
Especially when the going got rough, and some of us thought that she did deserve
the full support of ast members.
QHR kept us all hopping here, and we haven't been graced with her presence since
that time.
I don't blame her, all things considered as far as the lack of support she
received, although I do miss her and QPZ1 terribly.
Things just aren't the same without that closet, the antlers, the whip cream,
the pizza ...
BB2
BlessedBy2
>
> I personally don't care if you want to call it widgets, as long as
> there is a way to deal with it in a productive manner. As far as
> labeling something a tic rather than a compulsion or obsession might
> basically warrant a look at changing the medications, or possibly a
> different approach in modifying a socially unacceptable behavior, or
> it may mean nothing significant needs to be changed. How's that
> running in a circle?
>
We all love a good discussion about boxing things in, overdefining things, the
fine line between tics and compulsions, etcetera ...
But if the definitional aspects of assuming that some behaviors might be labeled
as tics might be camouflaging bipolar, whose early detection and treatment is so
important, then the discussion becomes much more than semantic ... I hope you'll
have a look at the significant section about bipolar on Leslie's site ...
BB2 - the concerned :-)
BlessedBy2
> James,
>
> My oldest son, who was diagnosed with TS years ago, have always been
> "haunted" by what he describes vaguely as "bad thoughts". He has physical
> and vocal tics, difficulties concentrating etc., but his main problem has
> always been his dreams and his fear of sleeping because of those dreams. He
> has now taken himself off medication and is fighting his "ghost" with great
> efforts (Sometimes it is good to have a brother in the other room who think
> it is OK to come in and sleep over on his couch.)
>
> I have not cared so much about if this is part of the TS definition or not,
> but I know anxiety is clearly one possible problem for TS persons. In my
> son's case an in the case described below, the reason for the anxiety has
> been given a name through the words of a child.
>
> Maybe it is bordering into other diagnostic "boxes", but saying that it is
> unheard of is a bit strong the way I see it.
>
> John Morten
John, the issue of intrusive thoughts is one that we faced years ago, and Vicki
H. helped us not only to understand them, but actually to overcome them. I'm
not sure if the technique that we used with an 8-year-old would apply to older
children or adults, but her advice was right on the money.
Intrusive thoughts -- OCish images and thoughts of repulsive things -- are very
painful for the person experiencing them, as they tend to be the kinds of things
that most hurt the person experiencing them. In my son's case, his intrusive
thoughts were fired up after he saw a child hit by a car and killed, leading to
a depression which fueled his OCish tendencies. His thoughts and images were
very painful to him, a very sensitive and spiritual seven and eight year old at
the time. His images were of ripping up the Bible, telling God to go to hell,
and things of that nature, which got stuck in his head.
Vicki reminded me that these thoughts are very embarrassing for the child, hence
they hate to talk about them. In order to get him to talk about them, we had to
attach light-hearted humor to them. We encouraged him to choose names for these
disgusting images, so that he could discuss them without naming them, hence they
became "foot lint" and "belly button lint" for him (things that to him were
disgusting-funny at the same time). Then, he could simply say, "Mom, I had foot
lint today during math" and I would know what he meant. With the help of this
technique, he was able to discuss and eventually banish these intrusive thoughts
!! It should be pointed out, however, that his intrusive thoughts were not of
the nature often encountered with bipolar (again, please refer to the sites at
the end of my fav links page on my website). A little knowledge about these
thoughts went a long way towards helping him overcome them in our case.
BlessedBy2
> On 21 Apr 2000 23:29:28 GMT, jjam...@aol.com (Ziggy99) wrote:
>
> >I'm no doctor, but it sounds like there is more going on there than TS/OCD/ADD.
> >
> >Never heard of a brain tic.>Brain Tics: show up as visions or words in the
> >brain. We have been
> >>told by our daughter "The devil told me that" or "God is talking to
> >>me". Visions and words can manifest as night terrors, visions of
> >>ghosts, robots, mutilated body parts, objects flying around the room,
> >>causing sleep disorders and waking her up.
> >
> >That doesn't usually fall into any TS tic that I've ever heard. Almost sounds
> >schizophrnic. I'm glad she has a good therapist.
> >
> Good point. That's part of the reason we threw this stuff at this NG -
> for some input and thoughts.
I don't know if I'd go that far ... everything you report is consistent with
bipolar, I think.
Anyone else?
BB2
Tourette Syndrome - Now What?
http://members.home.net/blessedby2
>
>
lpacker
>Hi Group!
<snip>
Because Overload emailed me and asked me to comment on some of the
statements here, I'm going to post my reply to the email publicly,
although I'm going to redact some stuff for obvious reasons. First,
however, let me state that although Overload attributes certain
statements to Mary Lou Reaver, I have no firsthand knowledge as to
what Mary Lou may or may not have said. I am only responding to
these as if they are statements put forth for consideration without
attribution.
>Mary Lou Reaver raised some interesting points. Try these out ... Brain
>tics, Genital tics that include reaching out to touch other people in
>genital areas.
>
>The brain tics, as we understand the discussion, would include hearing
>voices (our daughter says that God is talking to her, or that the Devil is
>telling her to do something), and night terrors.
In my opinion, that would stretch the definition of 'tic' so far as
to make it useless.
There is already a term in the vocabulary of most people active in the
field or living with TS known as "mental tics." The term "mental
tics" is in and of itself somewhat problematic because some people
seemingly use the term to refer to repetitive intrusive thoughts,
while others seem to use it to refer a different kind of internal
phenomenon.
Furthermore, the first two examples you provide (hearing voices
....Devil) sound more like the intrusive thoughts of OCD. There is
obviously a strong *cognitive* component there in that the thoughts
represent *ideas* and are experienced in or are capable of being
experienced in language and not just "twitches" of some kind.
Hence, I wouldn't even call them tics at all.
Night terrors are part of another condition (sleep disorders) that
tends to be comorbid with ADHD and other conditions. They are
certainly not 'tics,' within any reasonable definition of the term
'tic.'
Parenthetically, I note that while some may argue as to what should be
included in the definition of "Tourette Syndrome," I am not talking
about Tourette Syndrome here, but just talking about what is a 'tic'
and what is not a 'tic,' within the definition of 'tic.'
>Also, but not necessarily
>with our daughter, the brain tics would include visions of dismembered
>body parts flying around, and ghosts. Our daughter has tics almost all
>night long, every night, arms banging the wall, lengthy conversations with
>persons unknown, and some of the "standard" vocal tics. She often reports
>to us that she has weird dreams of death, etc., and does have difficulty
>sleeping through the night. There are, of course, a long list of tics
>during her waking hours. I mentioned the term "brain tics" in the
>alt.support.tourrete NG and got some responses, basically informing me, in
>a nice way, that these described events could be from bipolar disorder.
That's a bit of a leap. A lot of what you're describing might also
be present in any child (e.g., having conversations with an imaginary
person) or a child who has tics/Tourette and anxiety disorders. If
you look to the *pattern* it may give you a clue.
The most frugal/parsimonious explanation is the one you go with until
it fails to account for the data.
In other words, if you hear hoofbeats, don't look for a zebra.
>Very possible and I would not presume to disagree with BB2, but while these
>events never really go away, they do seem to wax and wane as do many of the
>other tics.
See above. I doubt that they're tics. But anxiety/OCD symptoms
*will* wax when the tics of TS wax and that is something that needs to
be considered.
>
>The second term, Genital Tics, is not new to us. Our daughter has had these
>tics for quite a while, but were sensations of her own body.
There is absolutely no need to go around coining new terms when we
already have terms in the system that are perfectly appropriate.
Sexual touching of self or others is a not-that-uncommon complex tic
or compulsion that is technically known as "copropraxia." I
sometimes refer to these behaviors as 'compulsive tics' because they
often have features of both. Without spending time observing the
individual and talking to them about their internal experience, no one
can really offer you any advice as to what it is in your daughter's
case.
>The
>interesting part of Mary Lou's discussion was concerning the
>not-socially-acceptable behavior of our daughter's reaching out to touch
>male genitals, or at least in the genital area of males. This came with the
>need she had to touch adult female breasts also. ...
[redacted material]
>..... She has been very ingenious in attaching a penis to
>nearly every doll she has. While we are still very careful to maintain
>close observation of her activities, she has not been as aggressively
>seeking to touch live human males recently. The question is, is it possible
>that these activities are not obsessions or compulsions as we had
>previously thought, but are instead tics?
Attaching a penis to dolls is NOT a tic. The touching of breast or
genitalia may be a tic, a compulsion, or a compulsive tic... without
observing her and talking to her, it's impossible for me to answer
your question.
>We have been working closely with
>an excellent therapist since these activities are not socially acceptable,
>and that has seemed to help. A slightly different approach might be in
>order if these are tics, rather than obsessions or compulsions, to continue
>to help her not make these moves.
The same strategies that work for OCs may work for such compulsive
tics, if she's motivated. Exposure -- response prevention or habit
reversal techniques.
<snip>
Just my .02. Hope the above helps.
Leslie
--
Tourette Syndrome "Plus":
http://www.tourettesyndrome.net
Advocacy Question? Post it to:
http://www.tourettesyndrome.net/wwwboard
FANGBASHER
bipolar, I think.
Anyone else?
BB2
>>
I would be real hesitant to suggest bi-polar. Not knowing this child, I don't
think it could be ruled out either based on the short description posted.
However, one should be cautious in suggesting an alternative dx such as
bi-polar in a child without having more information.
First, we do not know how this girl is doing academically or socially in
school. She does have dx's so far of TS OCD and ADHD which may in fact be
quite accurate. We do know that she is on some medication, but we do not know
what medication she is on, what symptoms she is being medicated for, whether it
has helped those symptoms, or whether some of the described behaviors of
concern came about before or after medication.
What I have seen in some younger kids with dx's of TS, OCD, and ADHD is either
an additional dx. AS (Asperger's) or something along the PDD spectrum. I have
also read about some children who have been re-diagnosed as bi-polar following
a manic reaction to an SSRI medication.
However, I have also seen those who have a dx along the PDD spectrum--including
autism and PDD-NOS who have shown manic reactions to SSRI's that were to help
with control of OC-related behaviors. That does not mean that they are
bi-polar, however, and that the original dx. was not valid.
As most of us know this is still not an exact science that follows a certain
set of rules for all who are given these dx's. We are still in the learning
stages--gaining more information steadily as to what seems to be going on, but
there is still a great deal more that needs to be discovered and/or proven.
Hopefully, in the near future not only will we have better understanding of
what is actually taking place, but we will see more consistency amongst those
making the dx's. of these "conditions" as well.
Vicki Hill
wrote:
>Some of the activity which you refer to as "brain tics" seems to describe the night
>terrors and voices which may be associated with bipolar disorder
You know BB2, my first reaction here was to respond the same.
However...I got to thinking. Yes, voices ARE sometimes associated with
bipolar...but the medications to treat them are the
antipsychotics...the neuroleptics. In other words, the very same meds
that treat tics well are also the meds that treat voices. While the
mood stabilizers that treat most bipolar symptoms do not typically
make voices go away. No, I certainly wouldn't go so far as to think of
voices as 'brain tics'...but there is the intriguing connection that
both symptoms - tics and voices - are somehow related to abnormal
dopamine functioning in the brain.
Vicki H.
Vicki Hill
>That doesn't usually fall into any TS tic that I've ever heard. Almost sounds
>schizophrnic. I'm glad she has a good therapist.
Hearing voices or seeing visual hallucinations does NOT imply
schizophrenia. These are symptoms which can occur with a number of
disorders...bipolar disorder and certain types of seizures immediately
come to mind. I'd have to look up the reference, but I'm pretty sure
that a TS researcher wrote a letter, published in one of the major
journals a year or so ago, about seeing the occasional TS+ patient who
heard voices. Not typically heard of because so many doctors don't
bother to ask...and it isn't exactly the type of thing many patients
voluntarily mention to their doctors precisely because of stigma. But
voices are merely a symptom...just like tics are a symptom or fever is
a symptom.
It is certainly possible that the person discussed in this thread has
additional diagnoses. My son has had aural and visual hallucinations
from time to time for 4 years now, typically controlled well by
Risperdal, an atypical neuroleptic. There are lots of reasons to have
a good therapist...but hearing voices isn't one of them, in my
experience. This is a brain chemical reaction, solvable by medication.
Therapy isn't go to make voices go away.
Vicki H.
Vicki Hill
wrote:
>'t vouch for others with TS, but our daughter has destroyed 3
>beds in the last 2 years from her rolling, bouncing and bumping. And
>the hoots, snorts, sniffs, etc. go on all night long.
Has she had a sleep study done? That would document what is going on
in the night. Another possibility would be myoclonic jerks, which can
look a lot like tics but very frequently come in the night. The sleep
study would also give some indication if there were any night seizures
involved.
Vicki H.
BlessedBy2
agreed ... I primarily wanted to make sure that 1) the poster at least looked into other
possibilities such as bipolar given the symptoms he described, and 2) that he was clear
that this wasn't necessarily an indication of schizophrenia, since we have heard of this
symptom before (as you mention on subsequent post), and the mention of voices often
brings up shizophrenia ... anyway, between you and Leslie, the original poster has a lot
of info to work with now ... BB2
BlessedBy2
> OverLoad <fat...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> >I mentioned the term "brain tics" in the
> >alt.support.tourrete NG and got some responses, basically informing me, in
> >a nice way, that these described events could be from bipolar disorder.
*Could* is the keyword here, Overload :-)
Leslie has explained the issues with coining new uses for the word "tic," and I
hope you've been put at ease about the issue of voices and schizophrenia, but
the reason I raised the *possibility* of bipolar was so that you would read up
on it, given the complete list of symptoms you described -- not because of the
mention of "brain tics," (we've talked a lot here about mental tics), but also
because some of what someone coined as "tics" for you don't seem to be tics at
all. As Leslie and Vicki both point out, there are other possible
explanations, but being informed about bipolar is prudent for all of us ... many
of us have seen cases go undiagnosed longer than necessary. I don't presume to
present you with a diagnosis ... only to strongly urge anyone presenting with
certain symptoms to read up on the possibility, so as to rule it out and be a
better informed consumer with the medical profession's tendency to miss things
in our realm :-))
> >Very possible and I would not presume to disagree with BB2,
:-))
No need to worry about agreeing or disagreeing with me ... and I'm certainly
nowhere's near an expert in this or many other areas !! ... just wanted to make
sure you didn't necessarily think of schizophrenia, and that you would inform
yourself of all possibilities ... as Leslie has pointed out, there are a number
of reasons for concern when new terms are coined for tics ... some of which may
not even be tics.
All the best to you,
BB2
P.S. - It was good of Leslie to chime in and help us out :-)
treadi...@my-deja.com
NOSPAM...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Hi Group! My wife and I have lurked in this NG off and on for a couple
> of years and have seen confirmation of a lot of the things our 9 YO
> daughter does. She was diagnosed with TS, OCD and ADHD at age 6, but
> in retrospect, we began seeing tics at the age of about 1 year. She is
> being medicated and seeing a therapist weekly, and is in a regular
> school with learning support.
>
Hi,
I'm the mother of 3 children (an almost 9yo girl diagnosed with TS and
bipolar disorder and 2 boys, ages 7 and 5, diagnosed with TS), and I
live in Pennsylvania. I mostly lurk here, too. My daughter sees a
pediatric psychologist weekly also and overall is doing wonderfully.
>Visions and words can manifest as night terrors, visions of
> ghosts, robots, mutilated body parts, objects flying around the room,
> causing sleep disorders and waking her up. She has tics all night
> long, arms and legs ticcing and hitting the wall, hoots, amazing
> arguments as she talks in her sleep.
I've never read of night terrors being regarded as tics. My daughter
has had night terrors on and off since about 18 months olds. They are
distinctly different from bad dreams or a restless night. I first read
of night terrors in a book written by Ferber, when I was desperately
seeking answers for my then 18-month-old. Adhering to routine seems to
be the best we can do for my daughter. Stress definitely aggravates
her sleeps problems. It was only after my daughter's bipolar diagnosis
when I was thoroughly researching bipolar disorder that I read up on
how prevalent the night terrors and vivid gory dreams are with the
bipolar diagnosis.
>
> Genital tics:
I never heard of this one before either. My children are very close in
age. Sometimes the potty talk can be overwhelming around here - Me not
making a *huge* deal out of inappropriateness (while still trying to
address it) seems to help these behaviors not stick around for
toooooooo long (LOL)! *Appropriate behavior* is certainly terminology
that my children are very familiar with! Sometimes it is hard to tell
what is perfectly normal child behavior for active, bright children and
where the line for tourettic-type behavior is.
>We have seen what we thought was an obsession with our
> daughter in a fascination with male body parts,
When my daughter was not yet diagnosed with bipolar and at the biggest
crisis point for us as a family, she was obsessed with the death
penalty and would attempt to grill us ad nauseum about it AND she was
obsessed with insisting that she wished she was a boy. I *think* she
was just very unhappy within herself and didn't wanna be her, maybe.
I haven't read up enough on cognitive behavior therapy, but if we go
down that nasty road again, I will. I think this may have helped me/us
deal with these obsessions. Interestingly, when she is stable, she is
far less obsessional. She currently takes only a mood stabilizer and
no tic meds.
Her teachers have been
> directed to use a hands-on approach (such as a back rubbing technique
> when she is writing or reading) and they were astounded at how well it
> worked.
Wow! This is neat for your daughter! My daughter would pitch a fit if
a teacher did this. She is definitely reserved about her *space* and I
definitely take any hugs she offers, cause they are not abundant.
>>, and maybe
> some others might pass along some help to us!
>
>
Some of your post reminded me of my daughter, particularly your
daughters apparent disregard to painful stimuli. I am not presuming to
fling the bipolar diagnosis around, rather I am willing to share some
very hard-learned lessons. Perhaps you may consider thoroughly reading
this link. I have tons more info on childhood onset bipolar disorder
if you would like more. Treated bipolar disorder is very manageable.
Untreated bipolar disorder is horrid.
http://bipolarchild.com/newsletters/9911.html
Best regards,
Treadinwater
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
FANGBASHER
voices are merely a symptom...just like tics are a symptom or fever is
a symptom. >>
Good explanation, Vicki.
<< It is certainly possible that the person discussed in this thread has
additional diagnoses. My son has had aural and visual hallucinations
from time to time for 4 years now, typically controlled well by
Risperdal, an atypical neuroleptic. >>
From what was described, sounds as if further evaluation might need to be done,
and more info. is needed before suggestions should be made as to what might be
taking place, at least based on limited info that has been shared as to this
point.
As far as restless and active sleep--our daughter with TS used to thrash and
turn all night long, and as I have described in the past--it was as if she were
doing gymnastics in her sleep and gave the appearance of a flying fish, left
out of water. She also talked and occasionally walked in her sleep or would
sit up and begin talking. These behaviors, were helped by medication
(Nortriptyline) which she took at bedtime only; the medication also helped keep
her tics under very good control over a 5 year period.
She is now in her teens and has been off medication for about 20 months. She
is doing great. She does not have the degree of restlessness she had before
starting the medication, but she also does not sleep as well as when she was on
it. She complains about having difficulty falling asleep on many school
nights, but I think she is a bit obsessive in thinking she needs a certain
amount of sleep each night (which she either read in a teen magazine or was
told such in a recent health class). She also has a very active and productive
mind, and she sleeps better when she has not had iced tea or other caffeinated
drinks after school.
Joanne Cohen
John Morten Malerbakken wrote
>
> I have never attended a seminar regarding TS in the US. I am a Norwegian
> living in Sweden.
>
jeg vil gerne haf tuborg selfvelegig!
=jo (Danmark - hjemme kaer hjemme(?).. once upon a time)
Joanne Cohen
John, Do you know Dr. Bente Pakkenberg from Hvidovre Hospital in
Denmark? She and her husband (also Dr. Pakkenberg) were on the cutting
edge of TS research - she put me on Orap when I was there for a
semester back in the early 80's before it was even available in the
US. I believe Denmark was the first place to use it?
Just curious....
I hope everyone had a wonderful holiday weekend!
Jo
CGEORGE
yr. old daughter with TS and ADD, as well as a 19 yr. old with ADHD that
"turned into" ODD & CD. Both had problems with their "thoughts". My
daughter claims to be able to think two thoughts at the same time....as if
she were really two....I figured this was somehow connected to her TS
because she'd always displayed a repetitive type thing with her speech.
But...my son, who has never displayed any symptoms of TS, just extreme
behavior problems had absolutely horrible problems getting to sleep because
upon closing his eyes he would clearly see his own face... it would begin to
(as he put it) "melt right off my skull", it was very disturbing to say the
least. What I find interesting is that both my son and my daughter have
experienced a dramatic lessening of their individual symptoms with the
introduction of several nutritional products containing amino acids,
essential fatty acids and loads of the B vitamins intotheir diets....they
have been weaned off all meds since October of 1998 and continue to do very
well. Tics and TS remain under control for her and my sons aggressive,
impulsive behavior as well as those horrible "visions" have not occurred
since he began this stuff....I never thought about his "visions" as
tics....I'd be very interested in finding out where I can learn more about
this?? Any leads would be most appreciated. E-mail me at cge...@i-55.com
<treadi...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8e0bt2$78a$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
treadi...@my-deja.com
NOSPAM...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> Of course it falls under the "socially taboo" category, but possibly
> by getting it in the correct slot, we can address it as a tic rather
> than an oppositional defiant problem (yeah, we have that too, and we
> try to not give that attention as OD kids need the response by the
> parent or adult in authority to feed the disorder).
My daughter routinely exhibits oppositionality. I have found Ross
Greene's book, The Explosive Child, to be THE most helpful in managing
her oppositionality. I think it's worth its weight in gold. *Regular*
parenting technics, that work quite well with my 2 younger sons, simply
do not work with her. Flexibility has been a key factor in managing
her oppositionality. My parenting style has certainly evolved in the
past 2 years. :)
>Treating it as a
> tic requires a completely different response (and Mom can deal with it
> better as a tic not a nine-year-old nymphomaniac - ha ha ha).
Actually, having persisted in sorting out the correct diagnoses for my
daughter has helped us to ignore tics and to try to better manage
behaviors. I believe it is very important to try to understand all the
pieces. My daughter's bipolar diagnosis answered my remaining
questions that persisted when my daughter's diagnosis was TS, ADHD,
OCD, ODD, Major Depression. Her oppositionality can be due to the
irritability of depression or the irritability of (hypo)mania.
Although certainly arguable, I have come to regard her ODD as a
symptom, not an actual diagnosis.
> Pharmacologically speaking, the Prozac will probably do little or
> nothing for that particular tic.
>
Pharmacologically, Prozac isn't a tic med ..... right? Anyone?
My daughter was started on another SSRI antidepressant, Zoloft, at age
7 for suicidal ideation. The Zoloft promptly alleviated the suicidal
ideation and certainly helped with obsessiveness, but gradually (over
about 3 weeks) the Zoloft triggered mania that ultimately led to the
bipolar diagnosis. It was while taking Zoloft that my daughter had
absolutely no regard for her personal safety. Although not expressing
suicidal ideas anymore, she would leap off high places, stick sewing
needles through her skin, stuck a quarter in a socket (and on and on
and on). At this time, she is about to turn 9 and remains stable on a
mood stabilizer.
In the Papolos' newsletter that I linked on my other post, they discuss
the use of antidepressants specifically.
TreadinWater
BlessedBy2
> In article <o4c1gss17o0l5c2ql...@4ax.com>,
> NOSPAM...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > Pharmacologically speaking, the Prozac will probably do little or
> > nothing for that particular tic.
> >
> Pharmacologically, Prozac isn't a tic med ..... right? Anyone?
You got it, AFAIK :-)
BB2
Vicki Hill
>In the Papolos' newsletter that I linked on my other post, they discuss
>the use of antidepressants specifically.
>
>TreadinWater
I just wanted to mention, for you or for any other parents who may be
reading this thread....an excellent site for info on bp in kids is the
site of the Child and Adolescent Bipolar Foundation (CABF). Website:
http://www.bpkids.org. There you will find articles, message boards,
and info on joining a bpparent mailing list. I'm moderator on one of
the lists there, and I was involved with the formation of CABF a year
ago. If you've read the Papolos' book, The Bipolar Child, they
frequently mention bpparent as a source for much of their info about
children with bipolar; I've been involved with the lists since 1996
and was one of the parents quoted anonymously in their book.
Vicki H.
OverLoad
wrote:
>Hi Group! My wife and I have lurked in this NG off and on for a couple
>of years ...
Many, many thanks for the responses, and especially Leslie's response
since she has obviously taken time out of her busy schedule to reply
to my e-mail. Most importantly, the replies from everyone were
welcome, and the information provided! I think we all sometimes get
stuck in running in one direction that tends to blank out the
possiblilties of other things going on. The "new tic definition"
caused us to slow the train down a bit and rethink what we were seeing
and hearing.
The only thing that was scary to us was the original diagnosis of TS.
After that, it was a search for more answers without fear of what we
would find. Bipiolar disorder was not ruled out, nor was it confirmed,
as there were so many other issues that popped up.
The list of everything observed in our daughter and things she has
reported, along with the environmental issues with siblings, school
interactions, peers, etc. would fill a book or two, rather than a NG
post, (as if that would be a surprise) so there are many points that
were left out of the original post.
Again, thanks to the group, and we'll keep on working toward helping
our daughter deal with her challanges. We're not experts, but we'd
help anyone that asks, and we'll continue to read the posts in this
NG, sometimes offering a comment or two.
John Morten Malerbakken
Weather in Scandinavia is just fantastic these days, so you would have loved
a cold beer in a harbour "kneipe" these days enjoying the spring.
John
"Joanne Cohen" <joc...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:3903B29E...@mediaone.net...
John Morten Malerbakken
No, I am not familiar with this couple. They would be just down the road
form here though (2 hours by car). The Swedish TS (as the Norwegian) is
having a lot of problems at the moment, some "fresh" ideas from Denmark
should maybe be used. Do you have E-mail addresses to them?
John Morten
"Joanne Cohen" <joc...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:3903B377...@mediaone.net...
John Morten Malerbakken
"CGEORGE" <cge...@i-55.com> wrote in message
news:76YM4.160554$AT6.2...@dfw-read.news.verio.net...
> I'm totally fascinated by what I've been reading! I'm the mother of a 15
> yr. old daughter with TS and ADD, as well as a 19 yr. old with ADHD that
> "turned into" ODD & CD. Both had problems with their "thoughts".
My 17 year old have always had what he describes as "bad thoughts", without
being able to describe them in more details. That has always been his main
problem, and we have reltated the anxiety related to this to his TS. He has
never been medicated for his tics, but we used Anafranil for a long time to
help him with his "thoughts". For the last year he has not been on any
medication at all. This was his own choice. From time to time he has
problems sleeping, but the positive effect of getting off the Anafranil hels
him getting over it.
> My
> daughter claims to be able to think two thoughts at the same time....as if
> she were really two....
Tht has also been discussed at length some years back. Personnaly I do not
have problems being engaged in several activities simultaneously, and can
reate perfectly to her ability to think about several things at the same
time. For me as a TS person, that is rather the "normal"situation. Last time
this subject was brought up, thre were also others who could reltae to
this. Whether is typical for TS or not is a ddifferent question. When you
have TS, that is all you know, and it is dificult to understand what is or
is not part of it.
>I figured this was somehow connected to her TS
Asking me, it is, but I can, as I said above, only relate to my own world
here. I do not have any medical terms for it.
> because she'd always displayed a repetitive type thing with her speech.
Repeating yourself is defined as a problem, but I do not see that the
anxiety and "bad thoughts" need to be related to that. As I understand it,
both symptoms can "be part of the package", but I do not necessarily see
them connected.
John Morten
Joanne Cohen
John Morten Malerbakken wrote:
>
> Og du må gerne ta en Carlsberg åsse.
Jeg vil gerne ta en Carlsbaer asse!!
> Weather in Scandinavia is just fantastic these days, so you would have loved
> a cold beer in a harbour "kneipe" these days enjoying the spring.
>
..The kneipe...the Stroget..the Round Tour..Frus Plas..Pibe Dan ( I
still have one I bought for my grandfather..)not to mention
Christiania (no, I was always a good girl...)
My life won't be complete until I can once again find a loaf of bread
like I used to get daily, fresh, unsliced, for dinner with a hunk of
cheese, some herring, the freshest butter i ever had, and a cold
Tuborg.
The bread (never sliced, and one loaf must have weighed about 4 lbs)
was a meal in itself, containing seeds, grains, etc. Wonder bread
wouldn't have been fed even to birds over there...0
The butter, milk, steak, etc. came from cows that must have dined on
the greenest grass and purest grains. You HAD to cook steak (often
fried) with butter, because not a DROP of fat ever came off of it, yet
it was always tender)
The milk reminded me of the way Heidi described the goat's milk from
her grandfather's farm in "Heidi", Hood or the best supermarket milk
is like water in comparison.
Hence, you can imagine why all the pastries were so delicate and much
more delicious than ANYTHING you could ever get in the US (PS, the
Danes do NOT call them "Danish" and find that very amusing....John,
what is the word for pastry or the bakery's again, you know, the one's
found on every corner and in every train station?/?
>
Oh, I know, for 20 years I've been blaming the 40 pound weight gain on
the Orap I took while over there...well, as BB2 says,
Cart...horse...cart....horse....
John, then there's the polska sausage thingy sold on the
stroget....the thick one, uummmmm....my brother in law travels a lot,
and I told him to get one...now it's the first thing he does when he
leaves the airport!
(Non-travellers', it's like a huge sweet sausage cooked to perfection
with a delicious sauce and covered with sweet onions, peppers, etc.
and remoulade (like a cross between mustard, ketchup, and pickles and
mayo) served on thick heavy break (like a hot dog roll, but better)
all for about 2 bucks....
I MUST GO EAT...>ARRRGGGHHHHHh
Hm, what do we have here? A Weight watchers frozen dinner entree
-chicken and rice dinner, with 4 slices of carrots, 3 teaspoons of
white bleached boiled blanched rice, 5 bites of thinly sliced
chicken, and 6 peas. For dessert, 2 tablespoons of cherry pie filling
with 1/16 of an apple at 4000 degrees F! A glass of Milford's finest
tap water and I'm FULL!
jo
John
>
> "Joanne Cohen" <joc...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
Joanne Cohen
tell you about my meeting and discussions with the Swedish TSA last
year...
Jo (off to shoot the sunset)
John Morten Malerbakken wrote:
>
> Joanne,
>
> No, I am not familiar with this couple. They would be just down the road
> form here though (2 hours by car). The Swedish TS (as the Norwegian) is
> having a lot of problems at the moment, some "fresh" ideas from Denmark
> should maybe be used. Do you have E-mail addresses to them?
>
> John Morten
>
> "Joanne Cohen" <joc...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
Vicki Hill
wrote:
>Hence, you can imagine why all the pastries were so delicate and much
>more delicious than ANYTHING you could ever get in the US (PS, the
>Danes do NOT call them "Danish" and find that very amusing....John,
>what is the word for pastry or the bakery's again, you know, the one's
>found on every corner and in every train station?/?
<g> Now THIS one I can answer! You are correct, Jo, the Danes don't
call them Danish. They call them <drum roll here>...Vienna rolls!! And
no, if you go to Vienna, they have a different name for them there,
also. Everyone loves them...but we all claim they came from somewhere
else....
Vicki H. (who spent the coldest 4th of July I've ever experienced by
the North Sea in Denmark....)
Roger D. Freeman, M.D.
GOOD at this point to start redefining things unless it is part of a
proper process. Each person or professional might have a preference,
interpretation, or idea, but it will only be confusing if someone starts
calling fascination with someone's genitals a "tic" or repeated images a
"tic". These may be obsessions or compulsions, which DO fluctuate over
time. But the boundary between complex OCD features and tics isn't
sharp, and we probably won't solve this problem by anyone redefining
something unilaterally; we'll need a much better basic knowledge of
brain function in relation to observed behaviour.
Oh, and I should add that the definition of tics, OCD, stereotyped
behaviour, self-injurious behaviour -- all are fuzzy, but we need
consistency in talking about the same things.
I go on a bit about this because if someone (by the "new" definitions
suggested here) has flashing repeated images and these were called tics,
we might get a diagnosis of TS that doesn't fit the current working
definition.
However, the question of treatment response is another matter. Tics
that might also be compulsions, and vice versa, might respond to a drug
usually applied to the other type of behaviour.
Roger D. Freeman, M.D.
OverLoad wrote:
>
> Hi Group! My wife and I have lurked in this NG off and on for a couple
> of years and have seen confirmation of a lot of the things our 9 YO
> daughter does. She was diagnosed with TS, OCD and ADHD at age 6, but
> in retrospect, we began seeing tics at the age of about 1 year. She is
> being medicated and seeing a therapist weekly, and is in a regular
> school with learning support.
>
> Recently my wife attended a TSA seminar and gained some interesting
> information that makes sense. We wanted to pass along some of this
> information so that it might help some other parents understand what
> is going on, and to find out if anyone else had heard of any of these.
> Here we go:
>
> Brain Tics: show up as visions or words in the brain. We have been
> told by our daughter "The devil told me that" or "God is talking to
> me". Visions and words can manifest as night terrors, visions of
> ghosts, robots, mutilated body parts, objects flying around the room,
> causing sleep disorders and waking her up. She has tics all night
> long, arms and legs ticcing and hitting the wall, hoots, amazing
> arguments as she talks in her sleep. We have noticed that the tics are
> generally worse after the house is completely quiet at night. It was
> suggested that we have a TV or radio going in her room to keep a
> certain noise level present to keep the brain somewhat active and
> focused on the noise instead of letting it wander off in terror land.
> That seems reasonable, as an intensely focused physical activity
> reduces certain motor tics.
>
> Genital tics: We have seen what we thought was an obsession with our
> daughter in a fascination with male body parts, to the point of
> attaching various objects to her dolls to make them boys. For a few
> years she had reached out and touched adult female breasts (a little
> difficult to explain to a stranger in the store) and reaching out to
> touch males in the genital area. It seemed odd for an obsession, as it
> seemed to wax and wane. Wow - just like a tic. This tic definition is
> a new concept for us, so we'll be working on it. By the way, the
> breast-touching seems to have been contained to herself now, since the
> medications have caused early development for her. It was suggested
> that a scrunchy ball or a piece of rough sandpaper in her pocket might
> be a substitute for the genital touching, since it may be a sensory
> tic. If nothing else, it is a way she can redirect the tic the same
> way a motor tic can be reduced by focused physical activity. The
> attachment of certain male parts to a doll has been her way of gaining
> the avenue for touching boys, since we forbid her to try to touch real
> boys there.
>
> Sensory tics: She is back to jamming pencils into her hand, and poking
> at her face and eyes. At times, we believe, she loses pain sensation
> (might be numbness, we haven't found the vocabulary for her to
> describe this one yet) and she is attempting to recover the sensory
> function. At other times, a minor bump that other kids would totally
> ignore results in hysterical screaming and crying as if she was being
> dismembered. This one waxes and wanes also. Hmmmm. I guess we have to
> work on this one too, before she attempts abdominal surgery on herself
> (ha ha).
>
> Our daughter has a lot of tics and most have been successfully
> addressed (thanks to a wonderful therapist and a great faculty and
> staff at her school) and she is making progress in school. We taught
> her to use small, focused physical activities to reduce her tics, when
> she recognizes them or when directed to do so. Her teachers have been
> directed to use a hands-on approach (such as a back rubbing technique
> when she is writing or reading) and they were astounded at how well it
> worked.
>
> We hope this little bit helps some other folks out there, and maybe
Roger D. Freeman, M.D.
provisional, have changed, and will change. Discussion is fine. But
it's not a matter of medical orthodoxy. It's a matter of avoiding
confusion. [There are, for example, some 65 different definitions of
"blindness" which have become accepted in different countries because of
their administrative history (who should get benefits), but these
haven't kept up with new knowledge, and a set of new definitions is
being proposed right now, but may only be accepted after some time and
debate, and then only in some countries.] The definition of TS will
never be satisfactory until we have finished linking it with the
underlying mechanisms. It is a "working definition" only.
Most of us have refused to accept the definition of TS in DSM-IV, and it
will now be changed in DSM-IV-R.
Roger D. Freeman, M.D.
John Morten Malerbakken wrote:
>
> Without answering to the details of your post regarding "other" tics, I
> tried to raise this question some time ago, but was quickly "put in place"
> by the defenders of the "right" medical discipline. (No offence to anyone,
> but it is difficult for a amateur to argument with the doctors).
>
> I tried to test an ida I had, that tics are more than just sounds and
> movements. Since I see so many having "tics of the mind" (probably diagnosed
> as ADD or part of ADHD), I just wonder if what we see there are the same as
> the more physical tics. That the mind flip-flops in all directions at the
> time.
>
> Some people are suffering under this "mental ticing", while some seem to be
> ablet o use it for creative purposes.
>
> As I read your post, you are speaking about approximately the same thing. I
> find the thought interesting and would like to discuss it further. Be aware
> that by doing so, we would be challenging the current definitions of what
> tics and otehr conditions are, so wear your "flak-vest". There is nothing
> wrong by constantly putting such definitions under debate though.
>
> Have a nice day.
>
> John Morten
Roger D. Freeman, M.D.
being held in Copenhagen on October 19th? I'll be there as a speaker,
as will Mary Robertson, Sue Connors, and Harvey Singer, plus a number of
local speakers. There will be a session on organizing a European TS
Association, too.
Roger
John Morten Malerbakken wrote:
>
> Clayton,
>
> I have never attended a seminar regarding TS in the US. I am a Norwegian
> living in Sweden.
>
> John Morten
>
> "Clayton Smith" <claytonsmit...@pdq.net> wrote in message
> news:33BF0A99AEEA26CA.F6E99ADE...@lp.airnews.net...
> > This is interesting. Marietta (Its the coffee talking) has already asked
> if
> > you'd post which seminar this was. I also wanted to ask if you'd let us
> know
> > the name of the speaker that talked about these tic categories.
> >
> >
jai
>
> I don't know what seminar you went to... but I suggest that it is NOT
> GOOD at this point to start redefining things unless it is part of a
> proper process. Each person or professional might have a preference,
> interpretation, or idea, but it will only be confusing if someone starts
> calling fascination with someone's genitals a "tic" or repeated images a
> "tic". These may be obsessions or compulsions, which DO fluctuate over
> time. But the boundary between complex OCD features and tics isn't
> sharp, and we probably won't solve this problem by anyone redefining
> something unilaterally; we'll need a much better basic knowledge of
> brain function in relation to observed behaviour.
>
> Oh, and I should add that the definition of tics, OCD, stereotyped
> behaviour, self-injurious behaviour -- all are fuzzy, but we need
> consistency in talking about the same things.
>
> I go on a bit about this because if someone (by the "new" definitions
> suggested here) has flashing repeated images and these were called tics,
> we might get a diagnosis of TS that doesn't fit the current working
> definition.
>
> However, the question of treatment response is another matter. Tics
> that might also be compulsions, and vice versa, might respond to a drug
> usually applied to the other type of behaviour.
>
> Roger D. Freeman, M.D.
>
Great to see you back!
Jai
Joanne Cohen
Vicki Hill wrote:
>
> O
> <g> Now THIS one I can answer! You are correct, Jo, the Danes don't
> call them Danish. They call them <drum roll here>...Vienna rolls!! And
> no, if you go to Vienna, they have a different name for them there,
> also. Everyone loves them...but we all claim they came from somewhere
> else....
>
> Vicki H. (who spent the coldest 4th of July I've ever experienced by
> the North Sea in Denmark....)
Not vienna rolls, that I remember, I was looking for the Danish
term....
I spent literally my last Kroner on 3 pastries and smuggled them back
into the US, gave one each to mom, dad, and my grandfather, who loved
them....they literally melted in your mouth....
Jo
Joanne Cohen
Roger, When is DSM-1V-R due out?
-Jo
John Morten Malerbakken
>
---SNIP---
> Hence, you can imagine why all the pastries were so delicate and much
> more delicious than ANYTHING you could ever get in the US (PS, the
> Danes do NOT call them "Danish" and find that very amusing....John,
> what is the word for pastry or the bakery's again, you know, the one's
> found on every corner and in every train station?/?
> >
In Danish (and Norwegian) you call them "Wienerbrød" which would translate
to "Bread from Vienna". I am not sure the Austrians are aware of that
though:
Time to start our courses in Scandinavian again, is it? Haggis got quite a
lot of material form me once.
John Morten
John Morten Malerbakken
"Roger D. Freeman, M.D." <rfre...@home.com> wrote in message
news:390B8ECA...@home.com...
>
--- SNIP ---
>
> Most of us have refused to accept the definition of TS in DSM-IV, and it
> will now be changed in DSM-IV-R.
>
> Roger D. Freeman, M.D.
Roger, for those of us who did not go to med. school. there is no way to
understand what you are saying here. Would you enlighten us please?
John Morten
John Morten Malerbakken
> provisional, have changed, and will change. Discussion is fine. But
> it's not a matter of medical orthodoxy.
I appreciate what you say here. As to teh question of orthodoxy, we could
probably have a loooong discussion with a lot of feeling in it, so I will
not take you up on that.
I believe that what I try to say, is that it is not logical to me to have
dxing locked into stringent definitions. Too often we find that definitions
are based on lack of knowledge and are used for purposes other than helping
the patients (I know about the word patient too, but I did not fine another
word just now.)
> It's a matter of avoiding confusion.
Agree, but at the same time it contributes to both confusion and fear whe
you find that you do not fit what you see around you into the definitions.
When you are then faced with true believers of the same definitions, you
have a problem. There are too many who do not know about TS and related
symptomes, and therefore relate only to definitions without being able to
discuss the foundation for it.
--- SNIP ---
>
> Roger D. Freeman, M.D.
John Morten Malerbakken
Where do I find more information on this?
BTW. I believe that the "First" symposium was held in Tønsberg, Norway
something like 5 years ago. I met Susan Connors and Sue Levy-Pearl there. At
least it was said to be the first European event at the time.
John Morten
"Roger D. Freeman, M.D." <rfre...@home.com> wrote in message
news:390B9053...@home.com...
BlessedBy2
> "Roger D. Freeman, M.D." <rfre...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:390B8ECA...@home.com...
> >
> --- SNIP ---
> >
> > Most of us have refused to accept the definition of TS in DSM-IV, and it
> > will now be changed in DSM-IV-R.
> >
> > Roger D. Freeman, M.D.
>
> Roger, for those of us who did not go to med. school. there is no way to
> understand what you are saying here. Would you enlighten us please?
>
> John Morten
John, go to the favorite links page on my website, and there is a link to an
article about tic definitions and DSM at the bottom of that page.
http://members.home.net/blessedby2/page13.html
DSM is the manual used for diagnosing "mental" illnesses. The DSM-IV (which
came after the DSM-III and DSM-III-R) added the "significant distress" factor,
which means that if you don't have significant distress, you don't have TS.
So, for instance, with the stroke of a hand, KAT went from having to TS to not
having TS in one day, even though she tics as much as 30,000 times a day,
simply because she isn't "significantly distressed" by her TS. Most doctors
ignored the "significant distress" addition, although it caused a lot of
controversy, as it didn't make sense. Roger is saying that this will be
addressed in the next revision (R) of the DSM. I believe he has said in the
past that the significant distress criteria will be dropped, but I'm not sure
if he has said what other changes there may be. Hope this helps,
BB2
Tourette Syndrome - Now What?
http://members.home.net/blessedby2
BlessedBy2
> I believe that what I try to say, is that it is not logical to me to have
> dxing locked into stringent definitions. Too often we find that definitions
> are based on lack of knowledge and are used for purposes other than helping
> the patients (I know about the word patient too, but I did not fine another
> word just now.)
Maybe the word "client" will do it ...
BlessedBy2
> Roger,
>
> Where do I find more information on this?
October in Europe ... hmmm ... :-))
It would be great if Roger could e-mail info to Leslie, so that she could add it
to the conferences page of her website, which is easy to find and access
(http://www.tourettesyndrome.net), and maybe CAS will add it to her UK website
as well. Roger, will it be only for professionals ??
BB2
Tourette Syndrome - Now What?
http://members.home.net/blessedby2
>
>
> BTW. I believe that the "First" symposium was held in Tønsberg, Norway
> something like 5 years ago. I met Susan Connors and Sue Levy-Pearl there. At
> least it was said to be the first European event at the time.
>
> John Morten
>
> "Roger D. Freeman, M.D." <rfre...@home.com> wrote in message
Joanne Cohen
BB1 wrote:
> DSM is the manual used for diagnosing "mental" illnesses. The DSM-IV (which
> came after the DSM-III and DSM-III-R) added the "significant distress" factor,
> which means that if you don't have significant distress,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I have significant distress - every time I go into my closet:
I have a tic, and den I say to myself,
"Self, should I wear dis-dress or dat dress?"
Then, when neither of them fit, I have Significant distress.
This puts me smack in the middle of the diagnosTic criteria for
Post TraumaTic Dress Syndrome
jo
TreadinWater
wrote:
>
>Last month
>treadi...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
>>Treated bipolar disorder is very manageable.
>> Untreated bipolar disorder is horrid.
>>
>
thinking
>about it a lot but my reaction seems to stay the same. Isn't
there such
>thing as a mild case of bipolar?
>
>Josh
>
>
Hi Josh,
I have read of *soft bipolar* which would probably be a mild case
of bipolar. A family history of alcoholism is also a
consideration in making the clinical diagnosis of bipolar
disorder. The belief being that many have self-medicated.
Certainly, in our case, when we examine my husband's
extended family, untreated *soft bipolar* almost surely is
present. But I still believe their lives and the lives of those
who deal with them are enormously impacted by their untreated
mood disorders.
There is also the term dysthmia which describes a mild overall
generalized depression and the term hypomania which describes a
mild mania.
My statement that you referenced would probably have been better
worded by saying:
In our case, untreated bipolar disorder was horrid!!! and bipolar
treated with a mood stabilizer is manageable.
We are very lucky that my now almost 9yo daughter responded very
well to a mood stabilizer.
Always,
TreadinWater
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Kathryn A. Taubert
>
> After much lobbying, Criterion C will be deleted.
>
> Roger
>
WHOT???! YOu mean that I'll have Tourettes again????
Thought I got rid of that thing with Criterion C.
:-)))
KAT in CT
Horny Slurper
The medical eggheads will bands it's use........
Kathryn A. Taubert <kata...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:8gj0vh$3kaa$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com...
Roger D. Freeman
Roger
KATHRYN A TAUBERT
Sometimes, laugher IS the best medicine.
"-))
KAT in CT
Roger D. Freeman <rfre...@home.com> wrote in message
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