Tall City Amazon Girl article
debra loveless
Calling all Tall Women and Men, I just read that article in Tallcity by
CarolineCarstens, and for some reason it made me angry, I'm Looking for
some responses from some other very Tall women and Men to see if it's
just me, but I seem to always read articles by women around 6'0 and all
they do is complain about the treatment they recieved and how most guys
that approach them are fetishists, not to mention the clothes problem,
bla. bla, bla. Now I myself am 6'5, I of course recieved my fair share
of teasing and "How tall are you's" and all that. And I of course when
I was younger wished that I wasn't so tall, but some how I always knew,
If I hung in there, stood up straight and proud, and waited to grow into
my god-given body it would work out. I was told over and over when I was
younger and still now that "Oh, you should model, your so tall you'd be
perfect" I never did pursue a modeling career because it just isnt my
scene, But in actuallity to model 6'0 is perfect, 6'5 a little hard to
fit into a runway show,Unless you are the Diva, clothes actually fit
very well for women with 6'0 frames with just a little searching while
6'5, Well, go figure.I see girls all the time around 6'0.And there seem
to be more and more taller younger girls which is great, but give them
support, not something to worry about. I suppose that maybe it is
because these writers and etc.ARE so much closer to the "norm" that just
a small amount of flack offends them. I just don't get, the way I see it
The hardships I have endured, and the teasing and ignorant people that
find me "too differen't" for lack of a better term have made me stronger
and even prouder of myself. I find actually that my height is an
excellant intelligence screening test for me, I can spot ignorace a mile
away, not to mention shallow insecurity.I t also is like a magnet to
people who are thrilled and adore unique people and things.It also
really made me angry that her reference to the men that approached her
were all Fetishists, thats more than likely not true, You can spot
fetishists, they became apparent quite quickly. But I know in my heart
that many people adore and are awestruck by tall women and men,
especially if they stand up straight and tall, Are confident in
themselves, and in thier fellow man,There, is always going to be
somebody to voice a negative oponion, don't let it make you weaker, let
it make you stronger.Please give me some feedback, And if you know of
any great articles abaout great tall women please let me know.
Susan
I agree with what Caroline wrote, and I support her 100%.
--Susan
Chris
It is true that Caroline is only 1m83.
but maybe in her town/city/village she is the tallest of all girls.
Here in the Netherlands she would in fact be normal... and not feel tall
at all.. and proberbly never wrote a story like that..
but everybody is allowed to write what he or she wants.
I must admit that I nave noticed too that 1.80 girls seem to have more
problems with their height than girls around 1.90 and taller. Maybe a
reason could be that they might have been tall for there age and were
teased for that.. and now that they are adults they find out that they
are in fact not tall anymore and compensate that with telling everybody
how tall they feel ?? I don't know.
Caroline wrote a nice story.. and i think that everybody should read
it.. No matter if they agree or not agree with it
Redwood
On Sun, 12 Apr 1998 11:38:28 +0200, Chris <abov...@worldonline.nl>
wrote:
>Caroline wrote a nice story.. and i think that everybody should read
>it.. No matter if they agree or not agree with it
Could somebody please post the URL for the article? Thanks.
-Sean Martin
6'7"
Daniel Terp
>
Kai Harrekilde-Petersen
debra loveless <de...@eden.com> writes:
> It also
> really made me angry that her reference to the men that approached her
> were all Fetishists, thats more than likely not true
This is not correct. Although Caroline only mentions the fetishists,
she does not say that she is approached by fetishists only.
--Kai
anna
Chris, I don't agree with what you are saying. Being a tall female that
have visited the Netherlands quite a few times I have the feeling that
people in the Netherlands are staring at me in the same way as when I'm
in Sweden. I don't feel more "normal" in the Netherlands than I do in
Sweden. I was in Amsterdam just a few weeks ago (awfully cold by the
way) and I was asked by a lot of people about my length (as always...).
But I also have to say that people in the Netherlands are very kindly so
I did not have any problem with these questions. So it is not a big deal
- I just want you to be correct.
Anna
In article <35308B...@worldonline.nl>, abov...@worldonline.nl
says...
>
>It is true that Caroline is only 1m83.
>but maybe in her town/city/village she is the tallest of all girls.
>Here in the Netherlands she would in fact be normal... and not feel
tall
>at all.. and proberbly never wrote a story like that..
>
>but everybody is allowed to write what he or she wants.
>
>I must admit that I nave noticed too that 1.80 girls seem to have more
>problems with their height than girls around 1.90 and taller. Maybe a
>reason could be that they might have been tall for there age and were
>teased for that.. and now that they are adults they find out that they
>are in fact not tall anymore and compensate that with telling everybody
>how tall they feel ?? I don't know.
>
Jinx
I've been away for a while, but it's time I made a comment... Thanks to
Susan and the guys for their support.
On Sat, 11 Apr 1998, debra loveless wrote:
> Calling all Tall Women and Men, I just read that article in Tallcity by
> CarolineCarstens, and for some reason it made me angry, I'm Looking for
> some responses from some other very Tall women and Men to see if it's
> just me, but I seem to always read articles by women around 6'0 and all
> they do is complain about the treatment they recieved and how most guys
> that approach them are fetishists, not to mention the clothes problem,
> bla. bla, bla.
First of: My name is Caroline Carlsten. Not "CarolineCarstens". Secondly,
if you don't have a problem with your height, finding clothes, or annoying
fetishists, that's all fine and dandy for you. However, a lot of us don't
share your luck. Attacking those problems in a support group such as this
is rude and inconsiderate. I don't care if you are 6'5" or even 8'0"; your
being tall doesn't justify such thoughtless comments.
> Now I myself am 6'5, I of course recieved my fair share
> of teasing and "How tall are you's" and all that.
[snipped the bla-bla]
> There, is always going to be
> somebody to voice a negative oponion, don't let it make you weaker, let
> it make you stronger.
Didn't you read my article? This is what I have been saying all along:
"Hang in there, you'll get through. But don't expect you'll be able to do
it all by yourself; don't be afraid to seek out help."
Another thing: Your being 5" taller than I am doesn't make my pain any
different from yours, or less worthy of attention or support. Reading your
post makes me think you are just another troll wanting to stir up trouble
and belittling the troubles some of us are having with regards to our
height.
> Please give me some feedback, And if you know of
> any great articles abaout great tall women please let me know.
>
Now that sounds hawkish to me. And anyway, I don't know if I am through
voicing my opinions on this subject. These were some initial thoughts; I
might continue when I am less angry ;-)
/caroline, 6'0"
Debra
Hello, first of all I want to say a sincere thank-you to all the wonderful
people who E-mailed me regarding my post. It is extremely nice hearing from
other tall people who understood what I was trying to say.
I also think it needs to be understood that I was not out to hurt Caroline
Carstens feelings, or anybody elses, regarding her article. Obviously I did
and that was not my intentions. I will apologize for writing "Bla,Bla,Bla, I
admit that was in poor taste and a little condescending. But I do find it
rather absurd that she feels that I am a "troll" or a "Tallhawk". I am afraid
I don't really kniow what a"Troll"or a" Tallhawk"is. I asume it is somebody
who is a Tall Chic Chaser. It feels to me like an insult. I honestly do no
know. I will admit I am very green to the whole Newsgroup, this is my second
post, and I am not sure exactly what nettiquete is requuired. I do feel a
little perplexed that she should call me names, I didn't call her any names, I
was simply posting my first post on a newsgroup. . I am sorry if I offended
her or anybody else, I don't hide my identity for two reasons, I don't know
how and I don't have anything to hide.If I need to prove that (Caroline) may
E-mail me and I will strighten it out via phone .. My name is Debra, I am 6'5"
, I am an Illustrator\Stage Production Artist who lives in Austin,Texas. I am
happily married to a wonderful tall man, and I do love being tall. I love
seeing other tall women who carry themselves well and who are also confident
in themselves. I was excited when I saw Carolines header for her article, And
I was just dissapointed. Period. However I did of course agree with some of
the things she said, regarding support for people whom are being teased
mercilessly, etc. It is just that in our world, Fortunately, people are just
plain getting taller, Just take a look at any of the tall lists and check out
how many of them are young, extremely tall, girls. I think it is extremely
important for young, tall, girls to have something to look forward to. I am
constantly being approached by parents of young tall girls who want thier
daughters to meet and talk to me, It is so eay to lose faith in yourself when
you are young and very different. I was adopted by an extremely loving family,
however, there was nobody even near my height in my family, when I was at my
most awkward and ungainly state, Instead of focusing on the people who were
causing me pain, (primarily because they were in so much pain themselves) My
parents were always introducing me to, and making me aware of extremely tall,
confident, beautiful, women. It helped me much more to talk to these women,
they gave me something to look forward to, And they helped me understand
that I would out grow my "ugly-duckling" stage if I belived in myself, stood
up straight and tall, and waited for mother nature to do her job. I am now
very confident, succesful and beautiful.
Perhaps I shouldn't have referred to Carolines article, I had no idea it
would offend her so much, I just believe that there are enough articles on how
hard it is to be tall and I would love to see one on how great it is to be
tall. Actually I was approached by Tallcity to write my own article after I
posted my letter, personally, I think my writing is terrible, I am an
Illustrator, not a writer. But who knows. I really would like to give young
tall people something to look forward too, And maybe someday, they could be,
and feel ,as fortunate as I do.
No harm intended CIAO DEBRA
Jinx wrote: that I didn't
Susan
Debra,
I hope you will forgive suspicion about your identity
and I hope you will understand that this group has
been plagued by individuals who hoped to start trouble.
It was only your third post to the group when you found
fault (at length) with a regular contributor to the group,
and I'm afraid that raised some eyebrows.
It's nice that you have a positive experience to share.
Others have a different perspective, and I don't like
to see someone's struggles discounted and dismissed as
nonsense, especially since this is a support group.
I was offended. Differences of opinion can be expressed
without resorting to personal attack, or an attack on a
whole classification of people who may disagree with you.
Thank you for your apology and for saying that you
meant no harm. Let's wave the white flag and get
back to the business of mutual support for tall people.
--Susan
Heather Badenoch
This is going to be something of a *me too* post...
Susan wrote:
> It was only your third post to the group when you found
> fault (at length) with a regular contributor to the group,
> and I'm afraid that raised some eyebrows.
I interpreted Debra's post as saying that those of us who are 6' shouldn't
whine because people who are 6'5 have more problems. Women who are 6' are
not the norm, as Debra argued in her initial post. Perhaps for models, but
not regular folks. I occasionally see a woman in a mall and think that
she's incredibly tall, only to walk past her and realize that we're the
same height!
Like many tall women [1], I endured teasing from others and self imposed
insecurities for many years. Susan makes the excellent point that this is
a support group. As such, we're not here to invalidate anybody's feelings,
just to support. That said, different perspectives are welcome, but nobody
here promises to be nice if they don't like what you say :)
It takes a strong, open-minded individual to come back the way Debra has
and offer both an explanation and an apology.
> Thank you for your apology and for saying that you
> meant no harm. Let's wave the white flag and get
> back to the business of mutual support for tall people.
*nod*
[1] or any individual whose appearances to not fit 'the mold'
--
========================================================
Heather Badenoch ICQ# 9439658
Bachelor of Commerce IV, Carleton University, Canada
A face to the name... http://chat.carleton.ca/~hbadenoc
========================================================
HHolpus
>
>This is going to be something of a *me too* post...
>
>
me three, then. OK, OK! This is getting scary already! I've been reading
every body else's posts for a while, and want to get my "history" in so I'm not
accused of being a troll , hawk or whatever, if I disagree with what's been
said. It's scary if a support group has to remain vigilant to "fake" tall
people looking to make trouble, and ignore the real concerns of newer people
who may not be in on years worth of lingo, etc. I began to feel like my
feelings were invalid because at 5'11', I'm not tall enough to feel different.
Or that I also noticed that there was only one Black face in the crowd at my
first foray to a TC meeting (Long Island) Please, people, different points of
view are OK! Vive le difference!
Debra
I sincerely appreciate the replys from both Susan and Heather. This
whole
"Amazon Article" has been sort of a learning experience, I realize now
that by
trying to intstill (is that right?) confidence in my rather in your face
and
blunt manner, that I actually achieved almost just the opposite, I
understand
now why so many women disagreed with my post, and so many men agreed.
I'm
afraid I tend to be such a tall enthusiast that sometimes I forget how
it felt
when I wasn't so thrilled.
I truly do want to help people feel as confident as I do, (most of the
time) as
well as inform the "general public" how to treat, react, and behave
torwards
the "Higher Society".
There are many things I still do not understand re: alt/news/tall.?
Could
somebody please tell me what the term "Spam" refers too?
PEACE
Heather Badenoch wrote:
> This is going to be something of a *me too* post...
>
> Susan wrote:
>
> > It was only your third post to the group when you found
> > fault (at length) with a regular contributor to the group,
> > and I'm afraid that raised some eyebrows.
>
> Like many tall women [1], I endured teasing from others and self imposed It
Jinx
On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, Heather Badenoch wrote:
> I interpreted Debra's post as saying that those of us who are 6' shouldn't
> whine because people who are 6'5 have more problems. Women who are 6' are
> not the norm, as Debra argued in her initial post. Perhaps for models, but
> not regular folks. I occasionally see a woman in a mall and think that
> she's incredibly tall, only to walk past her and realize that we're the
> same height!
>
>
I agree with Heather, and I feel I should reply as well. This goes out
both as a reply to Debra's last post and also as an answer to the email
she wrote me, which wasn't quite as apologetic. Please read the entoire
answer before hitting the "reply"-button...
You wrote me, Debra, and claimed I was being rude since you posted asking
for support. You said both here, and in the email, that you were fed up
with complaints. Wanna see it from my side of the fence? I was asked to
contribute to TallCity, so I compiled some of my older posts - I've been
with this group for more than a year - and basically spilled my guts to
the world. It was hard, but it felt good, too - I have got so many
wonderful replies from both men and women! In the article I recommend
people to check out alt.support.tall, since it helped for me.
Perhaps I wasn't being clear, but having my own experiences questioned
wasn't exactly what I had in mind. If you didn't like my article, that is
okay, I don't mind. But actually ripping it apart it in the support group
where it originated is what blew my fuses. Now you may continue to claim I
am just upset because you don't agree with me and keep calling me whatever
you wish, but the guilt thing isn't going to work. My experiences are my
own. They happened to me. End of story.
I have no desire to keep a dumb cat fight going here. Just keep in mind
that reading the FAQ before posting to a new group is always a good idea.
I've never seen you around here, so I take it you're new (sorry if I just
haven't been paying attention)? I got furious at your initial post because
we have spent so much energy trying to make it clear that accusing tall
people of being whiners is bad taste in this group - and that is how I,
perhaps mistakenly, interpreted your post. And obviously I wasn't the
only one. If you really wish to receive or offer support, Debra, I am
glad; and I seriously welcome you to the group.
Warmest regards
/caroline, with her happy face on (-:
Tallcity
In article <Pine.OSF.3.96.980419115033.6826A-100000@regulus> Jinx <carl...@astro.uio.no> writes:
>You wrote me, Debra, and claimed I was being rude since you posted asking
>for support. You said both here, and in the email, that you were fed up
>with complaints. Wanna see it from my side of the fence?
I would like to add that TallCity is interested in the experiences of all tall
people, so if you have differences in opinion from Jinx, by all means send
them to us at TallClty!
If we feel that they would be of general interest to tall people, we'll give
you your own page, just like hers.
No need to trash it out on a.s.t, there is a forum for all of us-
Dan
Susan
In article <35396A5C...@chat.carleton.ca>, Heather says...
<snip>
>Women who are 6' are not the norm...
>Perhaps for models, but
>not regular folks. I occasionally see a woman in a mall and think that
>she's incredibly tall, only to walk past her and realize that we're the
>same height!
<snip>
> Heather Badenoch
Hi, Heather,
Thanks for mentioning this. You know, I don't think
there are even many models who are six foot or over.
(Okay, folks, I said, there are not "many." No need
to flame me with examples of those few. I personally
know a former model who is 6 feet tall.)
I have heard that 5'8" to 5'9" is the desirable
height for a fashion model. Someone working with
models wants to be able to pull a garment off the
rack and put it on whichever model happens to be
nearby without worrying whether it will flatter
her figure or leave her standing there in
"highwaters."
Some short people think that a 5'8" woman is tall. ;-^)
Therefore, folklore has it that models are tall.
By the miracle of false logic, they draw the
conclusion that a taller model is a better model,
and that a woman who is very tall simply must be
a model (and a basketball player). While every
extra inch might make someone a more desirable
basketball player, the same does not hold true for
modeling. People don't seem to realize there is a
limit to this -- fashion designers are not seeking
out the tallest women available and begging them
to become models. Nobody wants to pay a model to
display their fashions in an unflattering way. The
clothes have to fit the model or the display of
the merchandise isn't going to look very appealing.
If all the models were six to seven feet tall, we'd
be able to buy clothes that fit properly!
Well, that's my tirade on "Oh, you are so tall,
you must be a model!"
--Susan
Debra
Caroline, thank-you so much for your reply,
I am not interested in arguuing (?) over misinterpretations either. I think we
both have objectives which is to offer support to people who are struggling. I
suppose now I understand why people got upset. I wasn't meaning to sound
accusatory re: height problems. And by NO means was I trying to say that being
6'5" is harder. I am just one of those individuals that honestly and truly
believes that height is a gift. And that it is life that is hard. The reason I
initially got so angry at you was referring to me as a troll, and Tallhawk, I
also did not even know there was a FAQ to go along with this newsgroup. I'm
telling you I am really REALLY new to all this. Not an excuse, just hoping people
will have some patience. I would like to sincerely apologize for calling you
ignorant, as long as you understand I don't think I deserved to be discredited
and considered a Troll because I had a different opinion. Anyway
PEACEl Alduous Huxleys" Brave New World " is going to start in 8 minutes.
That should be an interesting Interpretation! Ciao Deb
t
Jinx wrote:
> O
Kai Harrekilde-Petersen
> >Perhaps for models, but
> >not regular folks. I occasionally see a woman in a mall and think that
> >she's incredibly tall, only to walk past her and realize that we're the
> >same height!
>
> height for a fashion model.
I've read a book written by the Danish (ex-)model Lotte Heise, and she
wrote that she consistently lied herself 1cm shorter than she really
was, since hearing "180cm" upset people.
The range I've heard of is 175cm-180cm (5'9"-5'11"), and they need to
fit into two or three sizes of clothing/shoes (for the same reasons
that Susan mentions).
--Kai
Brad Olin
On Sun, 19 Apr 1998 08:31:49 UNDEFINED, tall...@alt.support.tall
(Tallcity) wrote:
>If we feel that they would be of general interest to tall people, we'll give
>you your own page, just like hers.
>
Thanks Dan for providing this service. I think it important that tall
people know they are not alone in their struggles and that much of the
crap they experience is not uncommon (unfortunately).
I'd honestly like to see more personal material that is positive or
heart lifting. There are times when you're bummed and need a
comforting word.
Brad
MJohns7861
>The range I've heard of is 175cm-180cm (5'9"-5'11"), and they need to
>fit into two or three sizes of clothing/shoes (for the same reasons
>that Susan mentions).
>
>
If this is the case what is the preferred height for a male model?
Heather Badenoch
Not sure what the 'preferred' height is, but my ex just got recruited and
he's 6'1".
Daniel Terp
>>The range I've heard of is 175cm-180cm (5'9"-5'11"), and they need to
>>fit into two or three sizes of clothing/shoes (for the same reasons
>>that Susan mentions).
>>
>>
>If this is the case what is the preferred height for a male model?
Actually, In doing the research for the TallCity Trivia section, I was
surprised to note that almost ALL fashion models in the US are 5'-9" to 5'-10".
A few notable exceptions are Elle McPherson (6'-0") Kate Moss (5'-7") and
Twiggy (5'-6"). All made their mark in photo, not runway, modeling.
The preferred height for male models is 6'-0" to 6'-2", but since men do less
runway work, it's easier to make a living of you're outside the limits.
Dave Rasmussen
From article <dterp.206...@alt.support.tall>, by dt...@alt.support.tall (Daniel Terp):
> A few notable exceptions are Elle McPherson (6'-0") Kate Moss (5'-7") and
> Twiggy (5'-6"). All made their mark in photo, not runway, modeling.
I vote for Gabby Reece.... ;-)
Colin R. Leech
Susan (sta...@sprintmail.com) wrote:
>
> I have heard that 5'8" to 5'9" is the desirable
> height for a fashion model. Someone working with
> models wants to be able to pull a garment off the
> rack and put it on whichever model happens to be
> nearby without worrying whether it will flatter
> her figure or leave her standing there in
> "highwaters."
>
> Some short people think that a 5'8" woman is tall. ;-^)
> Therefore, folklore has it that models are tall.
> [...]
> If all the models were six to seven feet tall, we'd
> be able to buy clothes that fit properly!
>
> Well, that's my tirade on "Oh, you are so tall,
> you must be a model!"
They also want the models to be incredibly thin (to the point of anorexia
being a problem). The proportions of the body dimensions will also make
them look taller than they really are.
--
#### |\^/| Colin R. Leech ag414 or crl...@freenet.carleton.ca
#### _|\| |/|_ Civil engineer by training, transport planner by choice.
#### > < Opinions are my own. You may consider them shareware.
#### >_./|\._< "If you can't return a favour, pass it on." - A.L. Brown
Colin R. Leech
While everybody is busy apologising over misunderstandings, I'll point out
that Debra's ISP name adds a (subconscious) mental image that doesn't help.
"eden.com" is just the sort of (usually faked) name that would have been
chosen by one of the sex spammers that tend to haunt newsgroups.
Debra (de...@eden.com) wrote:
>
> Could somebody please tell me what the term "Spam" refers too?
Unsolicited commercial advertising. The 'spammers' run around posting
thousands of messages to newsgroups where their message is not
appropriate, or not relevant. Usually it's for things like porno Web
sites, chain letters, 'get rich quick' schemes, etc. Usually their names
and addresses are faked. It's also used to refer to UBE, which is
unsolicited bulk e-mail. Same problem, slightly different medium.
Anders Henriksson
MJohns7861 <mjohn...@aol.com> wrote:
>>The range I've heard of is 175cm-180cm (5'9"-5'11"), and they need to
>>fit into two or three sizes of clothing/shoes (for the same reasons
>>that Susan mentions).
>If this is the case what is the preferred height for a male model?
I'd say around 6', with a span of one inch up or down (~180-185cm).
Over 6'3"/190cm is pretty rare, I think.
This makes all the models at a show appear to be of about the same
height (with the women wearing heels).
/Anders
--
Anders Henriksson -- <d95...@dtek.chalmers.se>
" \\\\\;\\\\\\\__o;\\\\\\\'/"
Jim Bronson
Colin R. Leech wrote in message <6hhgks$a...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>...
>
>While everybody is busy apologising over misunderstandings, I'll point out
>that Debra's ISP name adds a (subconscious) mental image that doesn't help.
>"eden.com" is just the sort of (usually faked) name that would have been
>chosen by one of the sex spammers that tend to haunt newsgroups.
Your stereotypes are getting to you. We've had many, many postings about
the legitimacy of Debra's posts. For starters, eden.com is the domain of
Eden Matrix, a very well respected ISP here in Austin, Texas. This tells me
that you are not doing you homework, because you would have known this had
you simply typed in www.eden.com. I can understand where you're coming
from, but the faked names are usually a little seedier than that, IMHO.
(and IMO only). Debra e-mailed me personally, so based on these two factors
she is very real as far as I can tell. If there's that much of a question,
I could call Eden personally to check. If I can get a last name, the Austin
phone book is sitting here by my right side ;-0
I think you all (ok, some of you) are a little quick to term somebody a
"tallhawk". I realize that there are an explosive amount of sickos running
around on the Internet, but Debra's posts have been credible, if somewhat
controversial. If the object of the rules and FAQ is to keep the topic
focused on issues of support for tall people, it has the unfortunate side
effect of creating flame wars about the legitimacy of controversial posters.
I found this newsgroup about 2.5 years ago. I keep crusing in and out from
time to time. This last few weeks are the first time that I have made
several posts here. Based on what I have seen recently, there are a (just)
few regulars who don't seem too open to outsiders. I haven't been around
enough to make that judgement yet, but my initial observation is that some
are a little thin skinned. I realize that as tall people (I'm 6'7")
sometimes go through peroids of low self esteem due to poor socetial
treatment owing to one's tallness. I know that as a gangly teenager I was
very self conscious and shy. I guess the summary of this is...let's keep an
open mind.
later,
Jim
Zrinka
Susan
The issue came up, it was discussed, possible reasons
were given for possible misunderstandings. Jim,
I really can't see a problem there.
Conflicts arise from time to time and I'm glad when
we can discuss them through (breifly) and come to a
resolution.
--Susan
In article <OqrOh3Wb9GA.206@uppubnews03>, "Jim says...
