school problems
Deborah M Riel
reached critical meltdown with high school, and flunked himself out of
his private school. He lost his appeal to remain for his senior year.
When we checked out the public high school, we found out that they
wouldn't accept all his elective credits because the courses and
course structures were different, so he's short credits to graduate
next year. He only *needs* English to graduate, but he's short 7
electives. He refused to consider going to high school for 2 more
years. He despises high school already, which was one of the major
parts of his problem to begin with.
I've offered him the option of getting his GED and enrolling in an
associate's degree program at the local community college starting in
the fall. I haven't given him the option of just the GED or taking
time off--that's not an acceptable alternative to graduating from high
school. Since he fully expected to spend next year as a senior in
high school, I think that he should fully expect to spend next year in
school as well. He says he agrees with this. Sometimes he's even
apologetic for screwing up this year so badly.
My problems are:
I'm stupid. I hoped this would be a bonding experience for us, and
instead he's oozing resentment from every pore. He sits sullenly
while everyone around him is being so nice and helpful to him. He
refuses to talk to me about classes and options. He refuses to study
for the entrance test or his GED. All this, yet he says he wants to
take this option.
I'm pissed off. He told me, after I took a day off from work to bring
him on a campus tour and set him up with the disability office (for
his ADHD and LD) and get the ball rolling for registering for the GED,
that I make his homelife miserable with all my bitching. Bitching,
Me??? Not hardly. I've bent over backwards to be supportive.
I suppose I can be accused of nagging, but not bitching.
I'm hurt. I'm trying to be good to him, show him he's loved and
supported, and he's just snarly and mean in return.
I never expected this reaction from him at all. He's been presented
with a great option to get him out of an educational crisis, and into
something that has the chance of being a really good thing for him.
It's something he *says* he wants to pursue. It's certainly a better
option than going to the public high school for 2 more years. He'll
have some freedom to make choices in his curriculum. He'll be able to
be himself. No detentions for stupid things like the length of his
hair. No dress code. Everyone who goes there loves the place.
Someone who has a better head on their shoulders than I do at the
moment, please attempt to tell me what the hell could be causing him
to act out like this?
Deb R.
Anne Robotti
Riel) wrote:
>Someone who has a better head on their shoulders than I do at the
>moment, please attempt to tell me what the hell could be causing him
>to act out like this?
Well, he's probably embarassed at having screwed up and all this is
making him feel worse. He's also probably in some corner of his mind
thinking that he should be able to take the year off.
Deb, what I think you should do is just let go of the rope. He can
either do this himself or you're setting him up to fail at yet another
school. I know he agrees with you in theory, but he's
passive-aggressively making it clear that he doesn't *really* agree
with you at all.
I think you should give him the option of going to school or getting a
job that allows him to pay you rent. Clearly he doesn't want to go to
school. Sitting around shouldn't be an option, but participation in
school isn't going to happen. You can't go to class with him, after
all.
This was a bitter, bitter pill for me to swallow with my SD. She could
have done great this year. Several people, including me, offered to
tutor her in subjects she was having trouble with. I talked to her
teachers about extra credit when her grades started to slide. I
attended school functions with her. She kept saying she wanted to do
better but she never really got on board to *do* anything about it.
Finally I had to just let it go. She failed five classes this year,
and will be repeating freshman year when she starts her new school in
the fall. I'm not happy about it, but maybe this will motivate her to
get her act together.
Alternately, is there a home-schooling program for high schoolers that
your son could do next year, instead of attending actual school?
Anne
The Watsons
"Deborah M Riel" <dr...@wpi.edu> wrote in message
news:cd6jt5$vlh$1...@bigboote.WPI.EDU...
> Someone who has a better head on their shoulders than I do at the
> moment, please attempt to tell me what the hell could be causing him
> to act out like this?
Pride? He tried to keep up with his peers, couldn't do it, and sees it as
just a failure, and here's mom and everyone else rushing in to do everything
for him yet again?
To an extent, I agree with Anne-drop the rope. Give him his alternatives and
then back off. If he agrees, he'll go for it. If he doesn't, he won't. If he
does go for it, it'll prove to him that he can keep up, he just has to do it
differently.
Jess
Deborah M Riel
The Watsons <warped...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>Pride? He tried to keep up with his peers, couldn't do it, and sees it as
>just a failure, and here's mom and everyone else rushing in to do everything
>for him yet again?
But, see, he can keep up. He's not a great student, but he can do it.
He failed 2 courses. One was religion--because he didn't like the
teacher and stubbornly wouldn't work for her. The other was health
science, and he got a B- on his final exam. He just plain didn't do
what he was supposed to do for the rest of the course.
>Jess
Deb R.
The Watsons
> But, see, he can keep up. He's not a great student, but he can do it.
> He failed 2 courses. One was religion--because he didn't like the
> teacher and stubbornly wouldn't work for her. The other was health
> science, and he got a B- on his final exam. He just plain didn't do
> what he was supposed to do for the rest of the course.
Well, yeah, of course he can keep up-we both know that. But how convinced is
he? Maybe he doesn't like school because it seems harder for him than it
does for his peers? If that's the case, a vocational program at the local
community college might be a really good idea. :)
Jess
Deborah M Riel
Anne Robotti <arob...@deletemelscomm.net> wrote:
>Well, he's probably embarassed at having screwed up and all this is
>making him feel worse. He's also probably in some corner of his mind
>thinking that he should be able to take the year off.
He does think he should be able to take a year off. He thinks he
should be able to hang with his friends all day and night, and never
do a blessed thing other than that. That's not part of my world to
let him do that.
>Deb, what I think you should do is just let go of the rope. He can
>either do this himself or you're setting him up to fail at yet another
>school. I know he agrees with you in theory, but he's
>passive-aggressively making it clear that he doesn't *really* agree
>with you at all.
He exhibits many passive-aggressive traits, and I think that was the
real cause of his failing the two classes that kept him from returning
to his school. He's been struggling with the decision about going
back to that school for the past 2 years. I've let it be his decision
to go there all along. That's where he wanted to go, but obviously
that's not where he wanted to stay. On the other hand, I'm sure I'm not
willing to let him decide to drop out when he's 17 yrs old. I don't
think he's quite out of childhood and into the realm of mature
decision-making yet.
>I think you should give him the option of going to school or getting a
>job that allows him to pay you rent. Clearly he doesn't want to go to
>school. Sitting around shouldn't be an option, but participation in
>school isn't going to happen. You can't go to class with him, after
>all.
I'm still not convinced that participation won't happen. My hope is
that he'll feel differently when he's in a community college
atmosphere where he's treated more like an adult, allowed to have his
personality without punishment, and has some choices of classes to
take.
I do know I can't make anyone hire him, and he's not motivated by much
of anything at all to actually get out there and pound the pavement
for work. That's one reason I wanted to strike fast and get him
enrolled in school for the fall, before he just ends up hanging around
with nothing to do but hang out with his friends who also are getting
their GEDs and not going to school or working. He seems to have gone
in this direction when choosing his friends. I don't want him to
necessarily give up his friends, but I really would like to nudge him
in a different direction before he becomes entrenched in that
lifestyle of aimlessness.
I'm thinking of compromising on this. I had told him that I expected
him to follow through on this associate's degree thing, and he agreed
to do it. I'm thinking that if, after a year of trying it he decides
he wants to work, I won't push him further with school. He'll be 18
then, and if he decides not to go back I'll just have to suck it up.
I'm not planning to throw this out to him right now, though, or he'll
probably passive-aggressively blow it without really trying to succeed.
He *will* have to either work or continue in school, though--my house
rules--and he knows it. And if he works and lives at home, he has to
pay room & board.
I just want him to try it. I really, really, really think it's
important.
>Finally I had to just let it go. She failed five classes this year,
>and will be repeating freshman year when she starts her new school in
>the fall. I'm not happy about it, but maybe this will motivate her to
>get her act together.
At least it happened freshman year, and not right before senior year.
She has time to think about it, and correct it if she wants to. It's
not crisis yet. I wish you and her luck.
>Alternately, is there a home-schooling program for high schoolers that
>your son could do next year, instead of attending actual school?
There is, and I suggested it but he didn't really want to do that. He
has a hard time staying on track and focusing, and with self
motivation, and no one would be around to help keep him focused.
Deb R.
>Anne
heather m.
age, he's feeling insulted and *powerless* that you're helping him so much.
Don't ask me why he feels this way, but I was in a similar situation at his
age, and my mom was the type to swoop in and save me and plan out my life
for me. I had the same attitude as he did, although at the time I couldn't
have verbalized why I felt the way I did. Now that I'm an adult, I can look
back and see why I felt that way.
Heather
"Anne Robotti" <arob...@deletemelscomm.net> wrote in message
news:anndf013rlrdlqead...@4ax.com...
Deborah M Riel
heather m. <heather...@ipa.net> wrote:
>I agree with Anne. What's more, looking back 10 years to when I was that
>age, he's feeling insulted and *powerless* that you're helping him so much.
>Don't ask me why he feels this way, but I was in a similar situation at his
>age, and my mom was the type to swoop in and save me and plan out my life
>for me. I had the same attitude as he did, although at the time I couldn't
>have verbalized why I felt the way I did. Now that I'm an adult, I can look
>back and see why I felt that way.
>
>Heather
But he's only *l7* and not a very mature 17 at that. I can understand
that he might feel that way, but should that stop me from helping him?
I don't want to swoop in and plan his life, just help him get on his way.
Isn't that what you're supposed to do when you're parenting an
adolescent who is having some trouble?
I know, I know. I asked *why* he's acting like that when my hope is
to make him feel loved and supported, and to give him something to
look forward to, and you're trying to tell me why.
I just think that if I can give him this opportunity, he might be glad
he had it later. If a year goes by and he's still not glad, then I
guess it's up to him to do whatever comes next. Does that sound
wrong? If so, why?
Deb R.
Vicki Robinson
>I just think that if I can give him this opportunity, he might be glad
>he had it later. If a year goes by and he's still not glad, then I
>guess it's up to him to do whatever comes next. Does that sound
>wrong? If so, why?
But if he doesn't take you up on it now and later, at 24, decides that
he should have, he will *then*. And that will be the right time for
him.
I think you should give him the choice of work or school and let him
decide. But he does have to do one or the other. And if he decides
just to screw off and not do *anything*, I'd take away all of his
clothing except for two of everything (one for the wash and one to
wear), and refuse to feed him anything but the most basic nutritious
stuff you can. I would not give him money and I'd be damned if I'd
drive him *anywhere*. You can make his life poverty-stricken without
throwing him out. Hanging with your friends is no fun if you can
never *do* anything.
Vicki
--
Power may be justly compared to a great river; while kept within its
bounds it is both beautiful and useful, but when it overflows its banks,
it is then too impetuous to be stemmed; it bears down all before it,
and brings destruction and desolation wherever it goes." -- Alexander Hamilton.
The Watsons
> But he's only *l7* and not a very mature 17 at that. I can understand
> that he might feel that way, but should that stop me from helping him?
> I don't want to swoop in and plan his life, just help him get on his way.
> Isn't that what you're supposed to do when you're parenting an
> adolescent who is having some trouble?
Depends-with a younger adolescent, I think so. But he's 17. You can't tell
me that somewhere in the back of his head the thought isn't running through
of "I'll be18 soon, then I can do whatever I want and not have to ask
permission." He is old enough to start actively working on what he wants to
do.
> I know, I know. I asked *why* he's acting like that when my hope is
> to make him feel loved and supported, and to give him something to
> look forward to, and you're trying to tell me why.
Here comes my favorite line-parenting ain't a popularity contest. You're
trying the warm 'n fuzzy side, and it's not working. Maybe it's time to try
the tougher side of either "full time school with a 2.5GPA and I'll help, or
you work full time, rent and groceries are due by the 15th and I don't
help."
> I just think that if I can give him this opportunity, he might be glad
> he had it later. If a year goes by and he's still not glad, then I
> guess it's up to him to do whatever comes next. Does that sound
> wrong? If so, why?
Yes-what if what he needs is that reality check of working at a minumum wage
job however many hours a week just to make the rent? That reality check
might be the impetus he needs to do better in school; right now, he's got an
abstract of "you need to do well in school or life outside of it is going to
be much harder."
Jess
Tracey
Deborah M Riel wrote:
> In article <IUEJc.4314$Qu5....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
> heather m. <heather...@ipa.net> wrote:
>
>>I agree with Anne. What's more, looking back 10 years to when I was that
>>age, he's feeling insulted and *powerless* that you're helping him so much.
>>Don't ask me why he feels this way, but I was in a similar situation at his
>>age, and my mom was the type to swoop in and save me and plan out my life
>>for me. I had the same attitude as he did, although at the time I couldn't
>>have verbalized why I felt the way I did. Now that I'm an adult, I can look
>>back and see why I felt that way.
>>
>>Heather
>
>
> But he's only *l7* and not a very mature 17 at that. I can understand
> that he might feel that way, but should that stop me from helping him?
> I don't want to swoop in and plan his life, just help him get on his way.
The thing is, Deb, from what you've written, you *have* just swooped
in and planned his life. At least as far as he can see his life as
being (the next year or two.) The options you've given him are really
very limited from his PoV. Let's see. School. Or school.
> Isn't that what you're supposed to do when you're parenting an
> adolescent who is having some trouble?
But, Deb, they have to *want* you to help before they'll accept
the help. What I'm getting from what you've posted is that the
help you're offering (the different route to schooling help) isn't
the help he wants. So, yah, when you keep bringing it up, he's
going to get hostile about it.
> I know, I know. I asked *why* he's acting like that when my hope is
> to make him feel loved and supported, and to give him something to
> look forward to, and you're trying to tell me why.
>
> I just think that if I can give him this opportunity, he might be glad
> he had it later. If a year goes by and he's still not glad, then I
> guess it's up to him to do whatever comes next. Does that sound
> wrong? If so, why?
IMO, I see the big possibility that it's not going to work. You
cannot *give* him the opportunity, he has to take it. And he's not
taking it from what you say.
My suggestion is that you sit down with him and ask him what *he*
wants to do. And then if what *he* wants to do is unacceptable to
you, tell him that and make him come up with something that IS
acceptable to you. The hardest part to that is that if he refused
to do something that's acceptable to you, you then have to figure
out your response. Because if he *knows* that even if he refuses
to come up with an acceptable plan, he will still be free to live
in your house without contributing financially and run around with
his friends and just hang out, what is the prod to him coming up
with an acceptable solution?
I mean, Deb, you've said here that the rule in your house is school
or get a job and pay room and board. But you've then said you couldn't
kick your child out. So it's not a rule. It's a suggestion that he
can ignore without consequences, eh?
Tracey
heather m.
"Vicki Robinson" <vjr...@xcski.com> wrote in message
news:cd78rn$q27$1...@allhats.xcski.com...
> In a previous article, dr...@wpi.edu (Deborah M Riel) said:
>
> >I just think that if I can give him this opportunity, he might be glad
> >he had it later. If a year goes by and he's still not glad, then I
> >guess it's up to him to do whatever comes next. Does that sound
> >wrong? If so, why?
>
> But if he doesn't take you up on it now and later, at 24, decides that
> he should have, he will *then*. And that will be the right time for
> him.
Yea, totally. Deb, he's not gonna be motivated to lift a finger in
community college unless he makes the judgment, or rather comes to his own
conclusion *without anybody telling him* that his ass is grass if he
doesn't. That was my whole problem with my mom, she insisted she lived in
my brain and made my decisions for me for my own good. I never got on the
right track until I basically told her to f*ck off, fell on my ass one good
time, then realized oh shit! I better go to college or I'll be flipping
burgers!
>
> I think you should give him the choice of work or school and let him
> decide. But he does have to do one or the other. And if he decides
> just to screw off and not do *anything*, I'd take away all of his
> clothing except for two of everything (one for the wash and one to
> wear), and refuse to feed him anything but the most basic nutritious
> stuff you can. I would not give him money and I'd be damned if I'd
> drive him *anywhere*. You can make his life poverty-stricken without
> throwing him out. Hanging with your friends is no fun if you can
> never *do* anything.
I wouldn't even lay down the law, although I agree with this in theory. I'd
try to wait a bit and let him come to me and tell me what he decides. If he
decides he wants to leech off of me, I'd say "Oh man, how are you going to
buy your clothes and stuff? Since your not going to go to school I'm gonna
need help with that". To me, that's more of a "roomate" type speak instead
of "I'm laying down the law with you young man". But of course, it may not
be the right way to handle things, and I don't have a teenager, so I don't
know. I guess I would just try to be nice as I can about it, but be really
firm too, as I'm sure it'll be hard since its your child and it might be
tempting to just let him have his way.
And I'd let him have the clothes he has now and eat what he wants, but he
has to contribute to the grocery bill, or actually if he eats certain things
he has to go shop for/buy them himself. You only buy groceries for yourself
or what you like to cook. And rent, he has to pay some kind of rent, and
contribute to the bills. Oh wait, I just realized I skipped over Vicki's
post too fast (sorry Vicki!). Yea, if he decides he doesn't want to do
ANYTHING, then let him be poverty stricken as much as possible.
Sheesh I need to read more slowly
Heather
>
> Vicki
> --
heather m.
> heather m. <heather...@ipa.net> wrote:
> >I agree with Anne. What's more, looking back 10 years to when I was that
> >age, he's feeling insulted and *powerless* that you're helping him so
much.
> >Don't ask me why he feels this way, but I was in a similar situation at
his
> >age, and my mom was the type to swoop in and save me and plan out my life
> >for me. I had the same attitude as he did, although at the time I
couldn't
> >have verbalized why I felt the way I did. Now that I'm an adult, I can
look
> >back and see why I felt that way.
> >
> >Heather
>
> But he's only *l7* and not a very mature 17 at that.
Well yea he's not mature yet, he's in the process of maturing. You have to
step back and let him do it.
I can understand
> that he might feel that way, but should that stop me from helping him?
You're not helping him, you're hindering him. You see yourself (I assume)
as giving him power and options, he sees you as making him powerless by
handing him his options on a silver platter instead of letting him search
out his options for himself. He's human, he *needs* to have that drive to
search for his options and succeed in finding them. It will give him
self-esteem, it will give him confidence in his judgment/decision making,
and he'll learn from his mistakes. Your taking his drive and making it your
own because he's your baby. You're doing it for him and he really resents
it. Even if he makes a bad decision, he has the right to make that decision,
and he deserves the right to learn from it. Letting him fall on his ass
(within reason, not saying let him jump off a cliff) is the *best* thing you
can give him at this age. To me, that is a precious gift. Rebellinng
against my parents helped me find myself. But I had to rebel because my
parents refused to relinquish control, and I had no sense of self
whatsoever. I felt like a manipulated tool, a robot told where to go.
> I don't want to swoop in and plan his life, just help him get on his way.
But he doesn't want you to.
> Isn't that what you're supposed to do when you're parenting an
> adolescent who is having some trouble?
Am I wrong or is an adolescent in the 12-14 range? He's 17. Let him test
his wings.
>
> I know, I know. I asked *why* he's acting like that when my hope is
> to make him feel loved and supported, and to give him something to
> look forward to, and you're trying to tell me why.
It's ok, I think I only remember my own situation so clearly because I was
the one out two children (my brother and I) that rebelled. My brother let
them run his life, and now he's basically a good guy, but is 40, divorced,
no kids, scared of life, and is learning basic lessons about relationships
that I learned 8 years ago. I know the only reason I ever learned anything
was because I fell on my ass. Hard. Of course, I recognize that some young
adults don't need the whole falling on the ass bit, some are just born
"getting it". My best friend was one that always "got it" but she didn't
have a mother that wanted to crawl up her ass and live either. I'm not
saying you are like that at all, but I think your son is trying to assert
some sort of independence, KWIM? And I understand it's got to be hard, I
have a kid too. You're just a mother, that's all.
>
> I just think that if I can give him this opportunity, he might be glad
> he had it later. If a year goes by and he's still not glad, then I
> guess it's up to him to do whatever comes next. Does that sound
> wrong?
You let him know that he has this opportunity, right? Ok then, now let it
go. If he wants it, he'll take it. Maybe he'll take it a year from now.
Whatever he decides, respect his decision. Don't try to think for him. By
assuming that he might be glad he had it later, you're trying to think for
him. Just offer it up and maybe a reminder here and there is fine.
Heather
Deborah M Riel
>
>> I just think that if I can give him this opportunity, he might be glad
>> he had it later. If a year goes by and he's still not glad, then I
>> guess it's up to him to do whatever comes next. Does that sound
>> wrong? If so, why?
>
>IMO, I see the big possibility that it's not going to work. You
>cannot *give* him the opportunity, he has to take it. And he's not
>taking it from what you say.
Well, sure, I can give him an opportunity to take if he chooses to
take it. It's not a given that he won't take it. He hasn't out and
out refused to go to school, he's been acting out.
The question in my mind is, why is he acting out? Is it because it's
his nature to be an extremely obstinate kid? Or because he's feeling
shitty that he screwed up his year? Or because I'm too much in his
face? He's been resentful, but on the other hand, he hasn't refused
which is something he's pretty good at when he really doesn't want to
do something.
A possibility that something *won't* work also implies a possibility
that it *will* work. Which one should I be banking on?
>I mean, Deb, you've said here that the rule in your house is school
>or get a job and pay room and board. But you've then said you couldn't
>kick your child out. So it's not a rule. It's a suggestion that he
>can ignore without consequences, eh?
Yeah, the rule is school or job and room & board. I won't kick him
out. If he's not working, he'll be in school.
I suppose if he absolutely refused to do either one, then Vicki's
suggestion would have to be implemented.
Leaving a 17 yr old to decide whether or not he stays in school when
he hasn't yet graduated from high school just goes against everything
I believe to be good for him in my gut. It's like telling Geri she
has to campaign for Kerry and mean it. To me, having him give this a
try is being a good parent, and it feels like I'm turning my back on
him if I don't persuade him to try it. I think the best I can do
is to insist he try school next year (since he had planned on being
there anyway) and see what happens after that. As you all say, he
can always go back later if it doesn't work out.
I really think this is the most I can compromise on this for now.
I'll have to give it some more thought.
Deb R.
>Tracey
>
Deborah M Riel
heather m. <heather...@ipa.net> wrote:
>
>Well yea he's not mature yet, he's in the process of maturing. You have to
>step back and let him do it.
>You're not helping him, you're hindering him. You see yourself (I assume)
>as giving him power and options, he sees you as making him powerless by
>handing him his options on a silver platter instead of letting him search
>out his options for himself.
Well, I could see your point if he was 25 and I was telling him what
to do. But he's still a minor, unemployed, living at home, dependent
on me for food, clothes, housing, etc. He's not particularly
interested in changing that scenario. He's not at all interested in
looking for work. He's at the age that other
kids would be entering their senior year in high school. Do most kids
entering their senior year in high school make all their own decisions
without parental guidance, help, input and some level of laying down
the law? Don't most kids entering their senior year in high school
have parental things like a curfew, expectations about homework, a
rough framework of rules, things that their parents want to instill
in them?
Of course he needs to see options and learn from mistakes. He just
cut off a big bunch of his options because of a huge mistake. I don't
have illusions of lifetime control over him, god help me if I do. I
want him to be prepared for independence so he can have it (and I can
have it from him) someday.
>Am I wrong or is an adolescent in the 12-14 range? He's 17. Let him test
>his wings.
I think 17 is still an adolescent. I want him to test his wings, but
I guess I still think he needs a bit of guidance in where he tests
them out. Believe me, he has a lot of personal freedom. A whole lot.
I just don't feel comfortable with giving him total personal freedom
quite yet.
>It's ok, I think I only remember my own situation so clearly because I was
>the one out two children (my brother and I) that rebelled. My brother let
>them run his life, and now he's basically a good guy, but is 40, divorced,
>no kids, scared of life, and is learning basic lessons about relationships
>that I learned 8 years ago. I know the only reason I ever learned anything
>was because I fell on my ass. Hard.
My brothers and I all rebelled--big time. But, we all finished high
school before we were expected to be allowed to fall on our asses.
Asserting independence is fine, but a certain amount of parental
expectation should be a part of family life, too, don't you think?
After all, I know he has expectations of me and my role in how he's
treated at home.
Deb R.
>Heather
jane
>Someone who has a better head on their shoulders than I do at the
>moment, please attempt to tell me what the hell could be causing him
>to act out like this?
>
>
>Deb R.
He feels like a loser.
jane
Cornhuskeress
> In article <40F73AF2...@aol.com>, Tracey <rbran...@aol.com>
> wrote:
>>
. It's like telling Geri she
> has to campaign for Kerry and mean it.
ODL.
--
Geri
"We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good."
- Hillary Clinton
Rupa Bose
Deb, I completely get where you're at.
Here's what I'm seeing, in no particular order:
1. He hasn't found himself yet, his own goals and directions. He needs
peer support, and gets this from friends as directionless as he is.
2. He views doing well in school as *your* objective for him, and
showing himself and you that he's his own man is more important than
figuring out his future.
3. He's young. The future is impossibly far away. What he'd *like* to
do is hang out with friends, because that's fun. They don't make him
feel like he should be doing anything else. He feels accepted.
4. Since he doesn't have clear goals, his main goal is to *be
independent*. Hence his resentment of you. Unfortunately, he is too
young to understand what real independence his. What he's really
saying is "Don't Tell Me What to Do!"
Suggestions:
1. Phrase everything as a suggestion.
Be super-polite. "Sweetheart, can you do me a big favor? Take those
socks to the washing machine?"
Be prepared for him not to take the suggestion. However, at some point
he may do so.
2. Have him take over some responsibilities that are easy to do: Fill
gas in the car and get it washed. Drive whenever you're in the car
together. Things where you know he'll be reliable and you'll have a
chance to be really pleased with him.
3. Ask him for his suggestions on things where you can make his
opinion count.
4. Get him to be supportive of you. Tell him a bit about your work.
In other words, try to evoke adult behaviour in areas that aren't
academic.
Is he good with other people? There's a guy I know who is rather like
yours in some ways -- but he's great with everyone else but his
parents. Polite. Responsible. Helpful. If so, see if he can volunteer
somewhere. It may help him build up his self-esteem.
Where does he get spending money?
Rupa
Vicki Robinson
>Yes-what if what he needs is that reality check of working at a minumum wage
>job however many hours a week just to make the rent? That reality check
>might be the impetus he needs to do better in school; right now, he's got an
>abstract of "you need to do well in school or life outside of it is going to
>be much harder."
Especially since minimum-wage jobs are mostly part-time. He's going
to be dumbfounded when he gets his pitiful little check and realizes
that it's already spent, that he has to just turn it over for room and
board and there's $5 left for fun.
Anne Robotti
Riel) wrote:
>But he's only *l7* and not a very mature 17 at that. I can understand
>that he might feel that way, but should that stop me from helping him?
>I don't want to swoop in and plan his life, just help him get on his way.
>Isn't that what you're supposed to do when you're parenting an
>adolescent who is having some trouble?
To an extent. A hard lesson I learned from this year with SD is that
sometimes you just can't help somebody.
And I'm sorry Deb, I never mean to hurt your feelings, but from what
you've said it's really coming off as if you *are* trying to plan his
life. Helping him in this situation, as an almost-18 year old who's
burned out on school, doesn't mean driving him around and holding his
hand while he talks to college people, bugging him about the GED,
stuff like that. It means helping him to see the real-world
consequences of not finishing high school, hanging tough about the
available choices (school or work, "neither" isn't on the table) and
letting go.
>I just think that if I can give him this opportunity, he might be glad
>he had it later. If a year goes by and he's still not glad, then I
>guess it's up to him to do whatever comes next. Does that sound
>wrong? If so, why?
It does. Because you're not trying to give him an opportunity. The
opportunity is there. Anybody can get into community college, Barnes &
Noble sells GED study guides for twelve bucks, and part-time jobs
during the school year are readily available for 17-year-olds. That
course is open to him whether you "give" him the opportunity or not.
You're trying to force the "opportunity" down his throat, or at least
I bet that's the way he feels.
Anne
megmotheroffour
I didn't read all the posts so hope I am not repeating.
1.ADHD really looks a lot like laziness and passive aggressive behavior
sometimes.
2. you are probably right that if he chooses his classes it will make a
difference. Most people with ADHD do exceptionally well at what they like
but there brain literally 'shuts down' if they don't like something. It is
not like someone else who may hate it but can much more easily force
themselves to do it.
3. Get him neurofeedback if he will tolerate it( tough age as they often
refuse this as well). I had a lot of success with this with myself and my
two children( all with ADHD). I even went back to college after 27 years
and finally finished my bachelors. My son got on the honor role for the
first time(16).
4. with the ADHD and LD I can understand why you are trying to help him. I
think it is a typical response from many parents of ADHD kids.
5. It's also typical for an ADHD person to plan on and really think they
will get their act together but fall down before the finish line( get up
and go but no perseverance)
6. Neurofeedback is the answer. If you let me know where you are I will
try to hook you up wih someone.
Meg
Meg
Deborah M Riel
You're pretty close to where I'm at on this, and you've described some of
his traits pretty well.
I *am* used to helping him. I've been his educational and medical
advocate since he started pre-school, and it's very hard to let go of
that when I can clearly see that he *doesn't* yet have his act together
and he consistently "falls down before the finish line."
The other thing with ADHD is that kids typically run about 3 years
behind their peers in some areas of maturity. I'd say that this describes my
son. He's 17 1/2, but on certain levels he's more like 15. Not in
all ways, but in some pretty key ways. This is for sure why I'm still
hanging in there trying to give him some structure and guidance.
I can't help thinking that he might need a bit more than his peers for
a year or two longer than them. I know I can't do this forever, but I
want to give him a good start and as good an educational background as
possible. This has been my goal all along.
I know he'd refuse neurofeedback. His ADHD treatments are one area
I've backed off on and let him decide as he's become older. I don't
always think he's made the right decisions in that area, but I've let
them be his to make at this point in time.
Deb R.
Vicki Robinson
>The other thing with ADHD is that kids typically run about 3 years
>behind their peers in some areas of maturity. I'd say that this describes my
>son. He's 17 1/2, but on certain levels he's more like 15. Not in
>all ways, but in some pretty key ways. This is for sure why I'm still
>hanging in there trying to give him some structure and guidance.
But he *isn't* 15. He may be immature and there may be a nameable
reason for that, but in terms of life experience he's 17.
>I can't help thinking that he might need a bit more than his peers for
>a year or two longer than them. I know I can't do this forever, but I
>want to give him a good start and as good an educational background as
>possible. This has been my goal all along.
But he's rejecting that, and, at 17 (even an immature 17) he's making
choices whether you like it or not.
I understand your need to keep him safe, I back it up 100% and I'd be
thinking exactly the same thing. But if he really wants freedom to
do nothing, tell him what *your* rules for yourself are going to be
in terms of how much support that you'll give him. He'll have a bed,
a place to shower and three squares. Enough to stay alive and safe.
And he's right if he thinks you owe him that, you do right now at 17.
But you don't owe him more than that, and whatever else he'd like to
have, he will have to provide. Let him decide. I'll bet he'll lie
around for a month getting totally bored, then he'll get a job and be
totally dismayed to discover that, while the food is getting better, he's
got nothing left after that, and then he'll get tired of working 40 hours
a week for peanuts. He'll be back at school when he thinks there will
be some value to him, and the bonus is that he'll be older, more mature
and will probably be able to get more out of the educational experience.
You're clearly not going to get what you want, Deb, so figure out how
you're going to handle what is actually happening.
megmotheroffour
have to pace yourself because if he was anything like myself you are in
for a rough ride.
I was an absolutely nightmarish teen. Egocentricity is a common ADHD
trait (you live so much in your own mind that you don't quite get that
there are other people with needs)and teens are egocentric to begin with,
so, I didn't give it much thought as to how my behavior was affecting
others. I failed out of high school as well, went on to get a GED but as
others have said, after I did the minimum wage thing. I had a 4.0 my two
years in community college(loved college compared to high school)and was
even accepted into princeton(see it's not a lost cause). Unfortunately, I
left in my senior year, a typical ADHD move. Can you imagine how difficult
it must have been for my parents to watch this roller coaster? Fortunately
they could not afford to pay for this fiasco so only I suffered with
student loans. I continued through my 20's going from one job to another,
not doing any planning or goal setting. This would be a typical scenario
for many ADHD people, especially the severe cases like myself. Those that
were able to maintain a relationship with me did not attempt to change me
or be responsible for me. I was always broke and struggling. My parents
didn't offer to help but sympathized. This is the best route to take. If
you continue to do for him my guess is that you will end up resenting it.
But unlike the others I agree that a 17 year old with ADHD still needs and
probably should get help. Later you will have to back off but now I say
keep trying. I was grateful for the help I received when I was younger and
knew when it started being above and beyond the call of duty( 20's).
Meg
Meg_
The Watsons
> Especially since minimum-wage jobs are mostly part-time. He's going
> to be dumbfounded when he gets his pitiful little check and realizes
> that it's already spent, that he has to just turn it over for room and
> board and there's $5 left for fun.
If he's lucky enough to get part time and anything left over.
Jess
Deborah M Riel
Rupa Bose <rkb...@pacific.net.sg> wrote:
>Deb, I completely get where you're at.
>
>Here's what I'm seeing, in no particular order:
>
>1. He hasn't found himself yet, his own goals and directions. He needs
>peer support, and gets this from friends as directionless as he is.
This is a good point. If he had friends with goals and directions,
they'd probably be either nagging him or giving up on him.
Funny thing is that I've heard him more than once give a stern lecture
about staying in school or staying out of trouble to his friends.
He just doesn't seem to buy into it for himself.
>2. He views doing well in school as *your* objective for him, and
>showing himself and you that he's his own man is more important than
>figuring out his future.
Probably true.
>3. He's young. The future is impossibly far away. What he'd *like* to
>do is hang out with friends, because that's fun. They don't make him
>feel like he should be doing anything else. He feels accepted.
Also true.
>4. Since he doesn't have clear goals, his main goal is to *be
>independent*. Hence his resentment of you. Unfortunately, he is too
>young to understand what real independence his. What he's really
>saying is "Don't Tell Me What to Do!"
He wants to be independent in a very dependent way.
>Suggestions:
>
>1. Phrase everything as a suggestion.
>Be super-polite. "Sweetheart, can you do me a big favor? Take those
>socks to the washing machine?"
>Be prepared for him not to take the suggestion. However, at some point
>he may do so.
This could work. I'll try it more often.
>2. Have him take over some responsibilities that are easy to do: Fill
>gas in the car and get it washed. Drive whenever you're in the car
>together. Things where you know he'll be reliable and you'll have a
>chance to be really pleased with him.
He doesn't drive yet. I'm not sure what would work in this case.
>3. Ask him for his suggestions on things where you can make his
>opinion count.
>
>4. Get him to be supportive of you. Tell him a bit about your work.
Interesting thought. If he can be supportive of me, instead of me
always being supportive of him, he might just start to feel more
adult, and like he can make a difference. As I said above, he's
pretty good at delivering lectures to his friends when he thinks
they're screwing up their lives. The exact same kind of lectures I've
been known to deliver to him.
>In other words, try to evoke adult behaviour in areas that aren't
>academic.
I'll work on this. I think my frustration boils over into coming
across as nagging with him. It's always been very, very difficult to
get him going on doing the things he's supposed to do, or the things
I've asked him to do. I ask, he ignores or postpones. I ask some
more, repeat, repeat, repeat. It then becomes a demand from me, and
refusal from him.
>Where does he get spending money?
I give him a very minimal allowance. Out of that, he's responsible
for paying a portion of his cell phone bill. He can earn more if he
wants by mowing the lawn for me, or by working on side jobs with my ex
who is a carpenter. Or, of course, he can earn more by getting a job.
So far, he's resisted pretty much all of those suggestions.
I'll work on some of this behavior. Maybe if I make some of the
changes you've suggested, he'll start being less sullen and resentful,
and more open to trying things. Maybe if he's less sullen and
resentful, I'll be more open to thinking of him in terms of an adult.
It could work.
Deb R.
>Rupa
Deborah M Riel
Vicki Robinson <vjr...@xcski.com> wrote:
>You're clearly not going to get what you want, Deb, so figure out how
>you're going to handle what is actually happening.
>
>Vicki
Point taken. I'm already not getting what I want, which is for him to
graduate from the private school that he asked to go to, and I paid
for and drove him back and forth for 3 years. So, yeah, you're right.
I'm trying to figure out how to handle it, and I'm still not 100%
clear on what's right for me or him.
I'm working on it, and giving it some more thought. I appreciate
everyone's input. I can't make a decision right away, though, I need
to process all these opinions and see how/where they fit into what I
can deal with.
Deb R.
Vicki Robinson
>Point taken. I'm already not getting what I want, which is for him to
>graduate from the private school that he asked to go to, and I paid
>for and drove him back and forth for 3 years.
Which was not wasted. It would be better if he had the diploma, but
let's face it, if he eventually gets the GED and goes on to CC, no one
will ever care where he went to HS, and he still has the advantage of
three years of a superior HS education, right?
Not a waste, not at all.
heather m.
> On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 00:41:53 +0000 (UTC), dr...@wpi.edu (Deborah M
> Riel) wrote:
> >But he's only *l7* and not a very mature 17 at that. I can understand
> >that he might feel that way, but should that stop me from helping him?
> >I don't want to swoop in and plan his life, just help him get on his way.
> >Isn't that what you're supposed to do when you're parenting an
> >adolescent who is having some trouble?
>
> To an extent. A hard lesson I learned from this year with SD is that
> sometimes you just can't help somebody.
Boy aint that the truth.
>
> And I'm sorry Deb, I never mean to hurt your feelings, but from what
> you've said it's really coming off as if you *are* trying to plan his
> life. Helping him in this situation, as an almost-18 year old who's
> burned out on school, doesn't mean driving him around and holding his
> hand while he talks to college people, bugging him about the GED,
> stuff like that. It means helping him to see the real-world
> consequences of not finishing high school, hanging tough about the
> available choices (school or work, "neither" isn't on the table) and
> letting go.
I'm going to FRAME this, it is so well-put, I couldn't have said it better.
I'm gonna keep it for when my son is a teenager. I can do it I can do it I
can do it.
>
>
> >I just think that if I can give him this opportunity, he might be glad
> >he had it later. If a year goes by and he's still not glad, then I
> >guess it's up to him to do whatever comes next. Does that sound
> >wrong? If so, why?
>
> It does. Because you're not trying to give him an opportunity. The
> opportunity is there. Anybody can get into community college, Barnes &
> Noble sells GED study guides for twelve bucks, and part-time jobs
> during the school year are readily available for 17-year-olds. That
> course is open to him whether you "give" him the opportunity or not.
> You're trying to force the "opportunity" down his throat, or at least
> I bet that's the way he feels.
Survival is a human instinct. You don't want to take it from him. And I'm
almost positive that's the way he feels. And Jane's right, he does feel
like a loser right now, even though he isn't and being his mom you want to
pump him up and get him back on his feet. You just need to remind him that
he's not a loser and that he can do it. He's a guy, he wants to go for the
kill, don't hand it to him or you'll make it worse, trust me on that.
Heather
>
> Anne
Deborah M Riel
megmotheroffour <me...@optonline.net> wrote:
>But unlike the others I agree that a 17 year old with ADHD still needs and
>probably should get help. Later you will have to back off but now I say
>keep trying. I was grateful for the help I received when I was younger and
>knew when it started being above and beyond the call of duty( 20's).
>
>Meg
>
Thanks for this perspective. I'm glad to get the viewpoint of someone
who seems to have been where my son is now. Sometimes I think I can't
quite articulate exactly what I'm dealing with.
Deb R.
megmotheroffour
scare you. I know of many others who were not as effected by it as I was.
But even I turned out O.K., maybe even better than that. I was an art
dealer(perfect for that gambling treasure hunting artistic personality)
until I became a neurofeedback trainer for people with ADHD .
Some friends who also have ADHD -
1 multimillionare, sole owner of a large international insurance company.
He just sold it for 150,000,000.00 .
1 composer has worked with the rolling stones, eric clapton and many
others. He also has done the soundtracks to many popular movies, grammy
winner.
1 interior decorator who decorates for stars, featured in magazines .
1 head of graduate program for a university,
Many other run of the mill success stories( doctors, lawyers, yada yada).
You get the picture. The teen years were hard on all of us. All of my ADHD
friends didn't blossom until way after then. We all found high school to
be so rigid and stifling. My guess is someday he will find out what he
wants to do, then watch out!!!
Meg
megmotheroffour
Rupa Bose
>
> >2. Have him take over some responsibilities that are easy to do: Fill
> >gas in the car and get it washed. Drive whenever you're in the car
> >together. Things where you know he'll be reliable and you'll have a
> >chance to be really pleased with him.
>
> He doesn't drive yet. I'm not sure what would work in this case.
If he's bigger and stronger than you, anything that requires use of
that strength. Anything manly. When you buy something heavy: "This is
really heavy for me. Could you help me take it into the house?"
In other words, look for his strengths, especially areas where his
strengths exceed yours, and recognize him for them. Kids that age are
looking for Respect.
Also, if you were bragging about him, rather than worrying about him,
what would you brag on? Let him overhear that.
I think my frustration boils over into coming
> across as nagging with him. It's always been very, very difficult to
> get him going on doing the things he's supposed to do, or the things
> I've asked him to do. I ask, he ignores or postpones. I ask some
> more, repeat, repeat, repeat. It then becomes a demand from me, and
> refusal from him.
I have teenagers, too. I know exactly what you mean. Sometimes, it
just doesn't work. Even with a relatively academic, compliant kid, and
much less with one who's neither. I think the main result for me was
developing a great deal of sympathy for what my own parents went
through!
>
> >Where does he get spending money?
>
> I give him a very minimal allowance. Out of that, he's responsible
> for paying a portion of his cell phone bill. He can earn more if he
> wants by mowing the lawn for me, or by working on side jobs with my ex
> who is a carpenter. Or, of course, he can earn more by getting a job.
> So far, he's resisted pretty much all of those suggestions.
>
> I'll work on some of this behavior. Maybe if I make some of the
> changes you've suggested, he'll start being less sullen and resentful,
> and more open to trying things. Maybe if he's less sullen and
> resentful, I'll be more open to thinking of him in terms of an adult.
> It could work.
In terms of a mental experiment -- try treating him like a junior
colleague you're friendly with? In other words, you might suggest how
they could do something better, whether it's their work or the
political game in the office. But you'd say it and leave it.
I know it's tough to do when it's your kid (and it's a lot easier to
write this than to follow it myself). But I've found that when I can,
it sometimes works for me.
Rupa
Michael and Amanda
> OK, I've processed this enough to start writing about it. My son
> reached critical meltdown with high school, and flunked himself out of
> his private school. He lost his appeal to remain for his senior year.
> When we checked out the public high school, we found out that they
> wouldn't accept all his elective credits because the courses and
> course structures were different, so he's short credits to graduate
> next year. He only *needs* English to graduate, but he's short 7
> electives. He refused to consider going to high school for 2 more
> years. He despises high school already, which was one of the major
> parts of his problem to begin with.
>
> I've offered him the option of getting his GED and enrolling in an
> associate's degree program at the local community college starting in
> the fall. I haven't given him the option of just the GED or taking
> time off--that's not an acceptable alternative to graduating from high
> school. Since he fully expected to spend next year as a senior in
> high school, I think that he should fully expect to spend next year in
> school as well. He says he agrees with this. Sometimes he's even
> apologetic for screwing up this year so badly.
>
> My problems are:
>
> I'm stupid. I hoped this would be a bonding experience for us, and
> instead he's oozing resentment from every pore. He sits sullenly
> while everyone around him is being so nice and helpful to him. He
> refuses to talk to me about classes and options. He refuses to study
> for the entrance test or his GED. All this, yet he says he wants to
> take this option.
>
> I'm pissed off. He told me, after I took a day off from work to bring
> him on a campus tour and set him up with the disability office (for
> his ADHD and LD) and get the ball rolling for registering for the GED,
> that I make his homelife miserable with all my bitching. Bitching,
> Me??? Not hardly. I've bent over backwards to be supportive.
> I suppose I can be accused of nagging, but not bitching.
>
> I'm hurt. I'm trying to be good to him, show him he's loved and
> supported, and he's just snarly and mean in return.
>
> I never expected this reaction from him at all. He's been presented
> with a great option to get him out of an educational crisis, and into
> something that has the chance of being a really good thing for him.
> It's something he *says* he wants to pursue. It's certainly a better
> option than going to the public high school for 2 more years. He'll
> have some freedom to make choices in his curriculum. He'll be able to
> be himself. No detentions for stupid things like the length of his
> hair. No dress code. Everyone who goes there loves the place.
>
> Someone who has a better head on their shoulders than I do at the
> moment, please attempt to tell me what the hell could be causing him
> to act out like this?
>
>
> Deb R.
I have two SS's 17 & 16. The older one is in an alternative school where he
is still doing the work he needs to get his credits to graduate, but he has
ample opportunity to do extra work (packets) to get more credits quicker. He
hated high school soo much and has done a complete turnaround in the past
year. He still needs 94 more credits to graduate, which for him means
working 3-4 packets a week the entire school year in addition to doing his
regular school work, but he doesn't go the whole day, it's three classes a
day 5 days a week. 16 yo has only 25 credits going into his junior year
(alternative school requires 200 credits compared to high school req. 250) .
Does the high school in your area have an alternative high school your son
could attend? Normally it's half day and he would only have 3 classes a day.
Is there anyway that the high school can give him partial credit for some of
the electives?
But since he is not even trying to work on any of the things you two have
agreed on and that he expressed doing, I would just leave him be on it. I
know you don't want to just give up on him, and you shouldn't, but maybe
sitting down with him and explaining to him that as much as you love him and
want to help him finish school, whether it be getting his GED, or
alternative education, you feel that he does not want this for himself. That
you will not force him on this, but that you will be there every step of the
way with him and will help him in whatever ways you can help him. But let
him know you are not giving up on him AT ALL! One thing I totally recommend
is taking him to a counselor, not school counselor, but a family counselor.
I really hope it all goes well for you Deb. Just keep your eyes on the
prize, that he'll get out of what's pulling him down and work towards his
diploma.
Amanda
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Deborah M Riel
Michael and Amanda <mmjohn...@starstream.net> wrote:
>Does the high school in your area have an alternative high school your son
>could attend? Normally it's half day and he would only have 3 classes a day.
>Is there anyway that the high school can give him partial credit for some of
>the electives?
They do, but it's full with a waiting list. The school wouldn't
accept any more credits, and won't accept partial credits.
>One thing I totally recommend
>is taking him to a counselor, not school counselor, but a family counselor.
>I really hope it all goes well for you Deb. Just keep your eyes on the
>prize, that he'll get out of what's pulling him down and work towards his
>diploma.
I've been to several family counselors with him over the course of
about 5 or 6 years, as part of his ADHD treatment. He refuses to go
back to any more, even though I've suggested it several times lately.
I've let him take charge of his ADHD management, and he's decided to
go the route of no meds, no counselors. I'm not sure it was a great
decision on his part, but that much of his life I've let go of.
I may decide to go to a counselor myself to get a better grip on this.
I just hope he decides to give the community college a try at least.
He might just find that it suits him and that it's not like high
school at all.
Deb R.
>Amanda
Tracey
Deborah M Riel wrote:
> I've let him take charge of his ADHD management, and he's decided to
> go the route of no meds, no counselors. I'm not sure it was a great
> decision on his part, but that much of his life I've let go of.
Deb, don't take this as me dinging on you, but I don't understand
how you have made the distinction between him being mature enough
to make a medical decision on his own but not mature enough to make
the other decisions you think he's not mature enough for.
Tracey
Deborah M Riel
>
>Deb, don't take this as me dinging on you, but I don't understand
>how you have made the distinction between him being mature enough
>to make a medical decision on his own but not mature enough to make
>the other decisions you think he's not mature enough for.
>
>Tracey
Basically, for a couple of reasons. He's no longer willing to take
the meds or go for counseling. I'm not willing or able to hold him
down and stuff a pill down his throat like I would with my kitties. I
also can't force him into my car and into a counselor's office, or
make it a valuable experience if I could do that.
He hasn't displayed the same amount of unwillingness about his
education that he has about the meds. There's still a part of him
that doesn't really want to be a high school dropout, and there's a
pretty big part of him that doesn't want to go look for a job yet.
This is what I'm hoping to work with for at least one more year.
I don't really think the med decision is the very best thing for him,
but it's not really negotiable at this point. The meds and counseling
were only a mixed success anyway. I know, school is also only a mixed
success for him so far, but it's still a negotiable part of his life.
Deb R.
megmotheroffour
I absolutely agree that he shouldn't be forced to take medication. How
many adults would appreciate being forced to live on an
amphetamines(adderall) or cocaine(ritalin)? But I think you can request
that he educate himself as to options in dealing with the ADD and LD
before making what is ultimately his decision. I think neurofeedback is
too important to dismiss as a possible solution to his school and
employment problems,which often continue into adulthood. My friend does a
good job of explaining the neurofeedback process on her site the
www.thebrainhaven.com . Maybe you could just ask him to read that? Also
there are many other options as well such as nutrition and supplements. I
am dreaming, assuming quite a high maturity level LOL. But it doesn't hurt
to exposing him to this stuff so that later, when he is ready he has the
info he needs to take care of this problem. He doesn't have to wait 40
years like I did. I also refused meds for myself and my children.
Meg
Deborah M Riel
megmotheroffour <me...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>I absolutely agree that he shouldn't be forced to take medication. How
>many adults would appreciate being forced to live on an
>amphetamines(adderall) or cocaine(ritalin)?
Actually a lot of adults would probably love to live on amphetamines
and cocaine... But, I have to object to the equating of Ritalin with
cocaine. They're not the same thing, and that particular equation
does a lot of harm to people trying to legitimize the treatment
options of ADHD. I'm not anti-med, and neither was my son until
recently when he's done an about-face on that issue.
I took him to a sleep specialist for awhile last year, hoping that
he'd get some biofeedback as part of his treatments. He didn't--I
don't think our insurance covers that, and the counseling on his sleep
problems pretty much fell on deaf ears as he was unwilling to comply.
Is biofeedback the same as neurofeedback? If so, what I've read about
it sounds very helpful, and pretty interesting as well. I'd like to
try it!
>But I think you can request that he educate himself as to options
>in dealing with the ADD and LD
>before making what is ultimately his decision.
My house is full of books on ADHD, some written for or about teens. I
bought a couple of them for him specifically, but so far, he's
declined to read them. He knows they're there if he wants to find out
what's in them.
I'm sure I'm not telling you anything new when I mention how totally
stubborn and unmoveable he can be...
I'll take a look at the website, and mention it to him.
Deb R.
Lori
> >he had it later. If a year goes by and he's still not glad, then I
> >guess it's up to him to do whatever comes next. Does that sound
> >wrong? If so, why?
>
> he should have, he will *then*. And that will be the right time for
> him.
>
> I think you should give him the choice of work or school and let him
> decide. But he does have to do one or the other. And if he decides
> just to screw off and not do *anything*, I'd take away all of his
> clothing except for two of everything (one for the wash and one to
> wear), and refuse to feed him anything but the most basic nutritious
> stuff you can. I would not give him money and I'd be damned if I'd
> drive him *anywhere*. You can make his life poverty-stricken without
> throwing him out. Hanging with your friends is no fun if you can
> never *do* anything.
>
> Vicki
YES! What Vicki said! It's pretty much what I would have said, but the
last time I said something like this it set off a round of how rigid I am.
But, IMO, this is not a little child. He is plenty old enough to understand
that his mommy is not responsible for taking him by the hand and saving him
from his foolishness anymore, and he *should* be shown the realities that
are part of life when mommy and daddy are not providing anything above
absolute basics.
Lori
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Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe
Riel) wrote:
<snipped>
>
>Leaving a 17 yr old to decide whether or not he stays in school when
>he hasn't yet graduated from high school just goes against everything
>I believe to be good for him in my gut. It's like telling Geri she
>has to campaign for Kerry and mean it. To me, having him give this a
>try is being a good parent, and it feels like I'm turning my back on
>him if I don't persuade him to try it. I think the best I can do
>is to insist he try school next year (since he had planned on being
>there anyway) and see what happens after that. As you all say, he
>can always go back later if it doesn't work out.
I can't remember if he has more dx's that will add to this or not, but
you've got to remember that you're dealing with an ADDer. He messed
up this year. He probably feels pretty bummed out about messing up,
pretty scared that he's going to fail if he goes back to school, and
scared about what life is going to be like, period, since he "can't
even get it right in school."
You *know* how those circular thought patterns go. Where are the
possible areas where *he* can see a possibility for success for
himself? Are there any? Or is he looking like an absolute failure in
his own eyes?
How about finding some opportunities for him to succeed at something?
There's still a few weeks left to the summer. Maybe some volunteer
work would help him get his head straight.
Kitten
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
True evangelical faith cannot lie dormant. It clothes the naked, feeds
the hungry, comforts the sorrowful, shelters the destitute. And serves
those who harm it. -- Menno Simons, 1539
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Courage, Real courage, is no quick fix. It doesn't come in a bottle
or a pill, It comes from discipline. From taking everything life hands
you and being your best either because of it or in spite of it.
-- Ty Murray
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe
Riel) wrote:
<snipped>
>
>My brothers and I all rebelled--big time. But, we all finished high
>school before we were expected to be allowed to fall on our asses.
>Asserting independence is fine, but a certain amount of parental
>expectation should be a part of family life, too, don't you think?
>After all, I know he has expectations of me and my role in how he's
>treated at home.
I'm one who *didn't* rebel, at least not in a big way. But then
again, I didn't see a whole lot to rebel against. My mom was pretty
straight-forward with me. I was one of those kids who appreciated
that. We had our guidelines and expectations, but they weren't too
harsh. And yes, finishing school was one of them. But...
What visions does your son have for his future? What are the things
*he* wants?
If he's like OS (16), he doesn't know what in the world he wants,
other than independence from parental rules, and will get irritated if
you push too hard for him to think about what he wants to do with his
life. ("I don't *know* what I want. Stop making me think about it!")
If he's more like YS (14), he can see the wisdom of the household
rules and has already made some choices about what he wants to do with
his life. ("I want to get a degree in agriculture, one in ministerial
studies, and a certificate in auto mechanics. The ag and mechanics
will come in handy when I'm working as a missionary.")
Which is he more like? What does he want to do? Does he have any
idea how to get from where he is to where he wants to be? Or did he
have a plan that he now thinks is totally screwed because he messed up
this past school year?
Deborah M Riel
Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe <kitt...@stbrigidsgatefarm-at-peoplepc.com> wrote:
>What visions does your son have for his future? What are the things
>*he* wants?
>
>If he's like OS (16), he doesn't know what in the world he wants,
>other than independence from parental rules, and will get irritated if
>you push too hard for him to think about what he wants to do with his
>life. ("I don't *know* what I want. Stop making me think about it!")
>
>If he's more like YS (14), he can see the wisdom of the household
>rules and has already made some choices about what he wants to do with
>his life. ("I want to get a degree in agriculture, one in ministerial
>studies, and a certificate in auto mechanics. The ag and mechanics
>will come in handy when I'm working as a missionary.")
>
>Which is he more like? What does he want to do? Does he have any
>idea how to get from where he is to where he wants to be? Or did he
>have a plan that he now thinks is totally screwed because he messed up
>this past school year?
>
>
>Kitten
He's more like your OS. He likes photography, and is very good at it
too, but he's not particularly motivated about actually going out
there with his camera. He is taking a photo class at Clark University
this summer and likes it a lot so far. I'm hoping he's going to gain
some confidence from the experience. He's the youngest student in the
class, and the one with the most knowledge and experience in
photography.
He hates to be bugged about his future. He really hates to do much of
anything right now but live in the present and hang with his friends.
I think he's going to give the CC a try next fall, though.
\
Deb R.
megmotheroffour
So far, all that I have heard has made me think that your son is a great
kid. Now I am convinced. I used to be a photography dealer. I loved
looking for new talent. My guess he hasn't started hyperfocusing on it
because he hasn't hit on something big yet. I have an ADD friend who
although he was a very good photographer he just played around with it
until he found 'it'(something new, exciting and different). That gave him
the motivation and excitement to devote a lot of time to it. He ended his
very lucrative career to be an art photographer despite my screaming over
the phone "No" ( akin to saying I am leaving finance to be an actor)until
I visited him in SF and saw his work. WOW !!! Now he is selling out in
galleries in SF at a time where art is not moving.
I have no idea what this all means. Just that many of the photographers I
represented had ADD. Many ADD folks are creative and gifted. The same
traits which now sometimes cause your son pain will also give him
pleasure.
Meg
p.s. - neurofeedback is also called eeg biofeedback. It is more powerful
than other types of biofeedback. It is the only type which is effective
for ADD and LD. It does a bang up job of regulating sleep. I charge 25-50
with most falling in the low range( I am a serious sap). Some trainers who
are psychologists call it psychotherapy when charging insurance.
Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe
Riel) wrote:
<snipped>
>
>He hates to be bugged about his future. He really hates to do much of
>anything right now but live in the present and hang with his friends.
>I think he's going to give the CC a try next fall, though.
After a horrid visit with BM, OS has started talking about what he'd
like to do with his life. He wants to go into law enforcement. That
means he's going to have to study because he's going to have to get a
college degree. He's mulling that over, but seems to be accepting it.
TF wanted to sit down and challenge the high school today. Actually,
he's been asking me for nearly a month, but he'd always ask too close
to bedtime. This afternoon, he sat down and worked the test and made
an 84% on it (1% lower than we require for our kids, but 4% higher
than we'd told him he had to make). So now I'm trying to find the
High School Graduation form I'd found a year ago. Now to get him to
focus on what he wants to do with his LIFE...
Rupa Bose
> to do. But he's still a minor, unemployed, living at home, dependent
> on me for food, clothes, housing, etc. He's not particularly
> interested in changing that scenario. He's not at all interested in
> looking for work. He's at the age that other
> kids would be entering their senior year in high school. Do most kids
> entering their senior year in high school make all their own decisions
> without parental guidance, help, input and some level of laying down
> the law? Don't most kids entering their senior year in high school
> have parental things like a curfew, expectations about homework, a
> rough framework of rules, things that their parents want to instill
> in them?
Yes. It's not always easy getting compliance though, much less any
recognition.
IIRC, your immediate problem is that he won't do summer school, and
without it, the public school he must attend will not graduate him at
the end of next year. (Was that right, or am I mixed up?)
It seems to me that if he won't go to summer school (and you can't
bribe or coerce him) then just enter him in school in the Fall, let
him carry on through the year, and then if he has to take another
year, so be it. I know you say he isn't prepared to do 2 years - but
that's today. At the end of next year, he may feel differently. At 17,
a year can make an awful lot of difference.
In terms of the curfew. If he doesn't drive, how does he get around?
Who's responsible for making sure he observes the curfew?
> My brothers and I all rebelled--big time. But, we all finished high
> school before we were expected to be allowed to fall on our asses.
> Asserting independence is fine, but a certain amount of parental
> expectation should be a part of family life, too, don't you think?
> After all, I know he has expectations of me and my role in how he's
> treated at home.
>
And he probably isn't even aware that they are expectations, he thinks
they're laws of nature.
("But that's what parents do!" mine said in bewildered tones when I
pointed out all the stuff I was doing.)
Rupa
Deborah M Riel
>IIRC, your immediate problem is that he won't do summer school, and
>without it, the public school he must attend will not graduate him at
>the end of next year. (Was that right, or am I mixed up?)
No, summer school isn't the problem. The public school won't graduate
him in less that two years anyway. There aren't any of the classes
that they require of him offered in the summer because of budget
cuts. The problem was more that he won't put any effort into preparing
for the GED or entrance exams for the community college, and that he seems
resentful and resistant about what I think
(and what he told me that he thinks) is an opportunity to get out of
this mess he's in and into something better.
>It seems to me that if he won't go to summer school (and you can't
>bribe or coerce him) then just enter him in school in the Fall, let
>him carry on through the year, and then if he has to take another
>year, so be it. I know you say he isn't prepared to do 2 years - but
>that's today. At the end of next year, he may feel differently. At 17,
>a year can make an awful lot of difference.
This is what I'm hoping. That after one year of CC, he'll want to
finish it and get his associates degree, so at that point it won't
matter so much that he didn't get an actual HS diploma.
>In terms of the curfew. If he doesn't drive, how does he get around?
>Who's responsible for making sure he observes the curfew?
No, actually he's pretty good about curfew. The points I brought up
were more to illustrate why I thought a 17yr old who normally would be
entering his senior yr. in HS should still have parental guidance on
life decisions, and not be given the freedom to make all his own
choices. I was trying to point out that most 17 yr olds in high
school would have a rough guideline of rules, like homework and
curfew, and parental expectations. I didn't think it should be
different for him because he failed out of his school and now has to
take a different route.
I guess I've been plugging the idea that I should still be pushing him
in a direction if he's not self motivated for at least another year,
then take it from there. Other people in this discussion have been
feeling that perhaps he needs me to step back from that and let him
decide his direction so that he can learn from his decisions.
Deb R.
>
>Rupa
Vicki Robinson
>This is what I'm hoping. That after one year of CC, he'll want to
>finish it and get his associates degree, so at that point it won't
>matter so much that he didn't get an actual HS diploma.
Around here, you need that GED or diploma to enter CC. Some HS
students take classes at the CC, but that's an honors kind of
AP/enrichment program.
>I guess I've been plugging the idea that I should still be pushing him
>in a direction if he's not self motivated for at least another year,
>then take it from there. Other people in this discussion have been
>feeling that perhaps he needs me to step back from that and let him
>decide his direction so that he can learn from his decisions.
Except that this isn't a once-in-a-lifetime decision. He doesn't
*have* to do this this year, or miss the opportunity forever. One of
the immense strengths of the US educational system, with all of its
very real faults, is that there are multiple entry and exit points.
You can screw things up at 17 and still earn a PhD from Stanford at
30. It might be a little rougher ride, but that's the way it is
sometimes. The door to further education will *always* be there. If
he decides to work or to lie around the house this year (which I agree
is not an acceptable option), the CC is still going to be there next
year and the year after that.
Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe
Riel) wrote:
>
>I guess I've been plugging the idea that I should still be pushing him
>in a direction if he's not self motivated for at least another year,
>then take it from there. Other people in this discussion have been
>feeling that perhaps he needs me to step back from that and let him
>decide his direction so that he can learn from his decisions.
That's what we've had to do with OS. Around here, it's "Here are your
options. Choose one and stick with it. It's up to you to do the work
required for that option. House rules still stand: Treat yourself
and others with courtesy and respect, and treat things with care."
Deborah M Riel
Vicki Robinson <vjr...@xcski.com> wrote:
>Around here, you need that GED or diploma to enter CC. Some HS
>students take classes at the CC, but that's an honors kind of
>AP/enrichment program.
The CC here in Worcester requires the GED or diploma to graduate. You
can still enroll and take classes, just not as a matriculating
student until you get the GED. You can't get financial aid, either,
until you get the GED or diploma, but it's still cheaper than the
private school he was going to for the past 3 years. They also have
that 12th year program, but obviously that's not what he's going for.
>>I guess I've been plugging the idea that I should still be pushing him
>>in a direction if he's not self motivated for at least another year,
>>then take it from there. Other people in this discussion have been
>>feeling that perhaps he needs me to step back from that and let him
>>decide his direction so that he can learn from his decisions.
>
>Except that this isn't a once-in-a-lifetime decision. He doesn't
>*have* to do this this year, or miss the opportunity forever. One of
>the immense strengths of the US educational system, with all of its
>very real faults, is that there are multiple entry and exit points.
>You can screw things up at 17 and still earn a PhD from Stanford at
>30. It might be a little rougher ride, but that's the way it is
>sometimes. The door to further education will *always* be there. If
>he decides to work or to lie around the house this year (which I agree
>is not an acceptable option), the CC is still going to be there next
>year and the year after that.
>
>Vicki
Oh, I know that. I just want him to try it and see if he likes it.
If he does, then we've gained a lot. If he doesn't like it, then he hasn't
lost anything and can come back to it later. If he doesn't try it at
all, there's the danger of becoming complacent. He's not a kid who
embraces change, and he's not a real self-starter. He doesn't seek
out these opportunities on his own. The door's only
open if you see that it's open, and sometimes people have to be shown
the door and lead right up to it before they really know it's there.
Deb R.
Vicki Robinson
>Oh, I know that. I just want him to try it and see if he likes it.
>If he does, then we've gained a lot. If he doesn't like it, then he hasn't
>lost anything and can come back to it later. If he doesn't try it at
>all, there's the danger of becoming complacent. He's not a kid who
>embraces change, and he's not a real self-starter. He doesn't seek
>out these opportunities on his own. The door's only
>open if you see that it's open, and sometimes people have to be shown
>the door and lead right up to it before they really know it's there.
But Deb, guidance doesn't have to take the form of "Well, the door's
open if you want it. Do you see the door? It's right over there.
Do you want to go through it? Do you? If you don't go through the
door, what else will you do? It's right there. Do you see it? I
think you should go through it, but it's your decision. But it's
right there, and you really should try it, because if you don't like
it, at least you'll know, right? Because there it is. Riiiiiight
over there. You can go through it any time now. Any time. Really.
Because it would be good if you did. Because, after all, there it is.
So, when are you going to go through it. Because it's right here,
yeppers, just waiting for you! So... <fade out>"
He's getting recalcitrant and resentful, and that's communication. He
sees the damned door.
I also think he's sending a sweet message with his birthday gifts for
you; what lovely things to do! He obviously thinks you're the
greatest. Maybe you should let him fall on his butt; it won't kill
him, it won't ruin his life and he'll have a better idea of what he
needs to do for himself afterwards.
I'd still make his life very pinched if he decides to just lie around.
The Watsons
> Oh, I know that. I just want him to try it and see if he likes it.
> If he does, then we've gained a lot. If he doesn't like it, then he
hasn't
> lost anything and can come back to it later. If he doesn't try it at
> all, there's the danger of becoming complacent. He's not a kid who
> embraces change, and he's not a real self-starter. He doesn't seek
> out these opportunities on his own. The door's only
> open if you see that it's open, and sometimes people have to be shown
> the door and lead right up to it before they really know it's there.
I had a bottom of the coffecup idea-I'm assuming you've been telling him
that CC is different than high school, and you think he'll like it better.
But all he has to compare it to is high school; if it's different, then
there goes his format for how to react/adjust to a new situation. Because
remember, we don't know how to instinctively read and react to new
situations, so they tend to intimidate us and make us shy away from them.
What're the odds that you could take him down to the CC and let him sit in
on a few classes to see the differences for himself, especially some of the
photography courses that require labs, or some of the humanities electives
he might need that require debate (and will Just so coincendentally tap into
some of those strong verbal skills he has)?
Jess
Deborah M Riel
Vicki Robinson <vjr...@xcski.com> wrote:
>But Deb, guidance doesn't have to take the form of "Well, the door's
>open if you want it. Do you see the door? It's right over there.
>Do you want to go through it? Do you? If you don't go through the
>door, what else will you do? It's right there. Do you see it? I
>think you should go through it, but it's your decision. But it's
>right there, and you really should try it, because if you don't like
>it, at least you'll know, right? Because there it is. Riiiiiight
>over there. You can go through it any time now. Any time. Really.
>Because it would be good if you did. Because, after all, there it is.
>So, when are you going to go through it. Because it's right here,
>yeppers, just waiting for you! So... <fade out>"
This made me laugh! You know me too well--even if it's just through
this NG...
But, what about what I wrote here? Do you see any validity at all
to this line of thinking?
<quote from a different post>
The points I brought up
were more to illustrate why I thought a 17yr old who normally would be
entering his senior yr. in HS should still have parental guidance on
life decisions, and not be given the freedom to make all his own
choices. I was trying to point out that most 17 yr olds in high
school would have a rough guideline of rules, like homework and
curfew, and parental expectations. I didn't think it should be
different for him because he failed out of his school and now has to
take a different route.
<end quote>
Because I've come as far as thinking I won't push the expectation I
started out with that he get the 2 year degree, and I wouldn't accept
less. But I'm having trouble letting go of what I wrote above, and
I'm still not convinced that I should...
>I also think he's sending a sweet message with his birthday gifts for
>you; what lovely things to do! He obviously thinks you're the
>greatest.
It was *incredibly* sweet. Thinking about those gestures and how much
they mean to other people hasn't been a natural direction for him.
I was really happy that it so obviously came from the heart. But,
y'know, it's a similar thing. I've been showing him that particular
door for a lot of years, for a lot of different people and occasions.
Showing him kind of obsessively like your illustration above--asking
him to think about people at Christmas, on their birthdays, and
father's day, etc. Hammering away at it, really. This time, it
seems that he thought about it on his own--planning what to do, and
how to do it and what would make me happy.
>I'd still make his life very pinched if he decides to just lie around.
I'm already planning what to cut, should it come to that.
Deb R.
>Vicki
Vicki Robinson
>This made me laugh! You know me too well--even if it's just through
>this NG...
No, I know myself. But I'm glad it made you laugh, I figured you'd
take it the way I intended!
>But, what about what I wrote here? Do you see any validity at all
>to this line of thinking?
>
><quote from a different post>
>The points I brought up
>were more to illustrate why I thought a 17yr old who normally would be
>entering his senior yr. in HS should still have parental guidance on
>life decisions, and not be given the freedom to make all his own
>choices. I was trying to point out that most 17 yr olds in high
>school would have a rough guideline of rules, like homework and
>curfew, and parental expectations. I didn't think it should be
>different for him because he failed out of his school and now has to
>take a different route.
><end quote>
I don't know. Every kid is different, every parent/child dynamic is
different. What I do get from you is a *very* strong protection vibe,
which I have no doubt at all works very well when it's channeled into
advocacy. Every child with invisible disabilities needs that, and you've
clearly been a staunch advocate for him throughout his life. But you
know how every trait has a flip side? Like my husband's steadiness and
reliability (which I treasure) also manifests as a certain passivity and
emotional heaviness that makes me crazy. Your advocacy may have the flip
side of micromanaging and intrusive decision-making. I think parental
expectations are fine and I understand where you are here. But I'm
wondering if these expectations are going to be productive for *your
son*. Stop wondering if every 17-year-old needs this or if every parent
should do that. If your expectations aren't going to help him, why
have them?
Like I said, he's got multiple entry points to this option.
I'm wondering if this might be the time for *him* to make this decision
independently, with you setting the parameters around *your* behavior.
How much are *you* going to enable his decision? Let him know what he
can expect from you in each case, and then let him do it. You can keep
him safe and let him explore. Maybe this is the time that he needs to
do it, ready or not.
>Because I've come as far as thinking I won't push the expectation I
>started out with that he get the 2 year degree, and I wouldn't accept
>less. But I'm having trouble letting go of what I wrote above, and
>I'm still not convinced that I should...
Which will you regret *more*; pushing him in ways that he's clearly
obdurate about for a very uncertain outcome, or letting him find his
own way, stumbling and falling?
>>I also think he's sending a sweet message with his birthday gifts for
>>you; what lovely things to do! He obviously thinks you're the
>>greatest.
>
>It was *incredibly* sweet. Thinking about those gestures and how much
>they mean to other people hasn't been a natural direction for him.
>I was really happy that it so obviously came from the heart. But,
>y'know, it's a similar thing. I've been showing him that particular
>door for a lot of years, for a lot of different people and occasions.
>Showing him kind of obsessively like your illustration above--asking
>him to think about people at Christmas, on their birthdays, and
>father's day, etc. Hammering away at it, really.
But in a natural rhythm. You hammered at every Christmas, at every
birthday. You didn't just beat on him all the time about it.
>This time, it
>seems that he thought about it on his own--planning what to do, and
>how to do it and what would make me happy.
So, he hears you. And no one had to push him to do something nice for
you this time. You let go of his hand and he didn't smash his head
against the corner of the coffee table, he walked across the room.
Maybe this was a non-verbal way to say "Mom, stop worrying. I can
do this, see?"
>>I'd still make his life very pinched if he decides to just lie around.
>
>I'm already planning what to cut, should it come to that.
Call me mean, but I'm kind of looking forward to that post.
Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe
Riel) wrote:
>If he doesn't try it at
>all, there's the danger of becoming complacent. He's not a kid who
>embraces change, and he's not a real self-starter. He doesn't seek
>out these opportunities on his own. The door's only
>open if you see that it's open, and sometimes people have to be shown
>the door and lead right up to it before they really know it's there.
That's what I was worried about with OS. But after spending 3 weeks
with his BM and SF, he's suddenly more agreeable to working with us on
things. He's looking at what he wants to do with his life, and he's
willing to see what it's going to take for him to get there.
Have patience. He'll get there.
Wendy
> Someone who has a better head on their shoulders than I do at the
> moment, please attempt to tell me what the hell could be causing him
> to act out like this?
Anger and frustration with himself possiby? Louise continues to talk about
going to university, yet when I nag about how she's not doing enough work
for the grades required for that, she goes into self-denial mode.
What options for credits for work placement are there, if any? Are there
any apprenticeship schemes he might be interested in? The Government here
runs something called the Connextion service, which helps to give career
advice, provides a message board for young people to discuss courses and
trainee schemes, puts people in touch with others so they can get a clearer
idea of what is involved, amongst other things. What if he were able to
work with a Photographer for a year as an apprentice?
In my experience, lots of people take time to find what they want to do with
their lives and any experience you get along the way to finding that is a
bonus. It's a really stressful time for young people at this age, if they
don't really know what they want to do.
Wendy
jane
>to this line of thinking?
>
><quote from a different post>
>The points I brought up
>were more to illustrate why I thought a 17yr old who normally would be
>entering his senior yr. in HS should still have parental guidance on
>life decisions, and not be given the freedom to make all his own
>choices. I was trying to point out that most 17 yr olds in high
>school would have a rough guideline of rules, like homework and
>curfew, and parental expectations. I didn't think it should be
>different for him because he failed out of his school and now has to
>take a different route.
><end quote>
>
>Because I've come as far as thinking I won't push the expectation I
>started out with that he get the 2 year degree, and I wouldn't accept
>less. But I'm having trouble letting go of what I wrote above, and
>I'm still not convinced that I should...
I stayed out of this the last time, but this is the second time you've posted
about "parental guidance on life's decisions," and I have to point out that he
does not appear to have asked for your guidance in this decision, and unasked
for parental guidance in life's decisions is IMHO the primary cause of adult
children dodging their parents. You don't even seem to notice that you're
projecting your "expectations" forward into his 19th year.
You're all confused. You're mixing up the age of the decider and the nature of
the decision. Yes, he's a minor living in your home and you have
responsibilities. You should be buying healthy food, paying for the heat,
talking to him, etc. Curfew and expectations are fine.
But college is a decision you don't make. If you were insisting that he get up
and go to high school in the morning, I'd be with you. But you and he have
agreed that high school is over. The next step is up to him.
Think of it like pregnancy. You can know for absolute ultimate certain that
the child should have an abortion/give the baby up for adoption/raise the
child/let the child live with relatives, but you just do not make the decision.
You can't. And hammering away at the person may sometimes get her to do what
you want but always screws up her life and your relationship.
As always, the question is really what *you* are going to do. I'd consider
enrolling him in public school unless HE convinced ME that HE had another
workable plan. I don't know if that's even an option for you, but nagging a kid
to go to HS is a totally different situation than pressuring him into going to
CC. Or I might talk to his father about a change of residence until 18. I
(me, me, me) would make it clear that my support responsibilities ended at 18
and that he needed to get himself to self-supporting by that time. And, of
course, I'd be having him evaluated for depression, and his allowance would be
a thing of the past.
For the record, I am not talking about punishing him into doing things your
way. Ready or not, the two of you have to adjust to him making his own
decisions about his own life. So you should support him in any reasonable plan
for the coming year: peace corps, asst manager at a music store, CC, selling
photos at the Centrum, whatever.
jane
>Deb R.
Deborah M Riel
jane <janel...@aol.com> wrote:
>You're all confused. You're mixing up the age of the decider and the nature of
>the decision. Yes, he's a minor living in your home and you have
>responsibilities. You should be buying healthy food, paying for the heat,
>talking to him, etc. Curfew and expectations are fine.
If expectations are fine, why isn't the expectation that he continue
in school another year fine as well? He would have been there anyway.
It's just a different school. I don't get the distinction about
insisting he attend public high school, but not insisting he spend the
exact same year attending a CC instead. The year's the same, the
kid's the same. The school's better. If I have responsibilities
towards him, doesn't it follow that he has some as well?
>But college is a decision you don't make. If you were insisting that he get up
>and go to high school in the morning, I'd be with you. But you and he have
>agreed that high school is over. The next step is up to him.
High school isn't over until he passes the GED. That's the rock
bottom minimum I'll accept.
I just don't know. I don't know what to think about the rest of what
you wrote. It goes against my strongest gut feelings about what I owe
him as a parent *at this point in his life, at this particular age.*
And I could be wrong, but I could be right, too.
I wish he'd give me some time to really talk to him, so I could get a
chance to sound him out about whether or not he really wants to go this
route or if he has some other reasonable plan. I can't pin him down lately.
He's either not home or has a houseful of friends. When he's at home,
I'm at work. When I'm at home he's off and running with the kids. Plus I have
another one of his friends living at my house again who won't go home
for whatever reason, and it's just plain hard lately.
Deb R.
>jane
jane
>in school another year fine as well? He would have been there anyway.
>It's just a different school.
See, that's where you go all sideways. What different school are you talking
about? The private school? Well, he didn't want to go there, so he flunked
out. The public schools? Those he just refused.
Look, Deb, you can't have it both ways. You can't say to him, "Go to CC - it's
totally different" and at the same time say to me, "but I'm just expecting my
17 year old to go to school." You are using CC as a HS substitute. He just
rejected HS, why would you think he want a substitute for it? CC is very
different from HS and very much the same. I have to assume that DS does not
want to go to CC for basically the same reasons he didn't want to go to HS, and
he's probably right.
> I don't get the distinction about
>insisting he attend public high school, but not insisting he spend the
>exact same year attending a CC instead.
Parents make decisions about HS. Students make decisions about college. Of
course that's an oversimplification, as I don't remember the last decision I
made about Lee's HSing, but she's different from your son. You have *some*
input in HS, not much in the last couple of years. IIRC, my SD signed herself
out at 16.
I digress. You're trying to deprive him of the chance to go to college when he
wants to and is motivated to. That's a very empowering choice. Can't you look
at this as him fighting for the right to go when it's right for him and not as
him throwing away his life?
> The year's the same, the
>kid's the same. The school's better. If I have responsibilities
>towards him, doesn't it follow that he has some as well?
No. Not in this. I'm telling you, Deb, it's like pregnancy. He owes you
absolutely zero in his decisions about higher education. Or marriage. Or
children. Or career choice.
>
>High school isn't over until he passes the GED. That's the rock
>bottom minimum I'll accept.
Well, then, you're in for a world of frustration. Because HS is over for your
son.
>I just don't know. I don't know what to think about the rest of what
>you wrote. It goes against my strongest gut feelings about what I owe
>him as a parent *at this point in his life, at this particular age.*
>And I could be wrong, but I could be right, too.
Nope. You're not right. You're going through that dreadful realization that
you're powerless to prevent him from making mistakes that will affect his
entire life. He will continue to make them for his entire life; with any luck
you'll get better about accepting it. If not, he'll avoid you and/or allow you
to support him in his impotence.
>I wish he'd give me some time to really talk to him, so I could get a
>chance to sound him out about whether or not he really wants to go this
>route or if he has some other reasonable plan. I can't pin him down lately.
>He's either not home or has a houseful of friends. When he's at home,
>I'm at work. When I'm at home he's off and running with the kids. Plus I
>have
>another one of his friends living at my house again who won't go home
>for whatever reason, and it's just plain hard lately.
Baby, I wouldn't talk to you either. There is nothing worse than someone who's
trying to force you to do what she wants you to do. I'm me, so I'd just say,
"I am not going to talk to you about it, so you might as well drop it now,"
proceeding, of course, to "shut the fuck up." He's young and male - he's
dodging.
Deb, do you realize that a few posts back you referred to his behavior as
"acting out"? He's a man. It's right and just that he should go with that.
That is his future. Sure, he's got some undercooked areas. We all did. We
can all look back and say, "if I knew then what I know now, I'd have...." But
that's how we got to know now what we do.
jane
>
>Deb R.
Amy Lou
> In article <20040720105349...@mb-m03.aol.com>,
> jane <janel...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> >You're all confused. You're mixing up the age of the decider and the
nature of
> >the decision. Yes, he's a minor living in your home and you have
> >responsibilities. You should be buying healthy food, paying for the
heat,
> >talking to him, etc. Curfew and expectations are fine.
>
> If expectations are fine, why isn't the expectation that he continue
> in school another year fine as well? He would have been there anyway.
> It's just a different school. I don't get the distinction about
> insisting he attend public high school, but not insisting he spend the
> exact same year attending a CC instead. The year's the same, the
> kid's the same. The school's better. If I have responsibilities
> towards him, doesn't it follow that he has some as well?
>
> >But college is a decision you don't make. If you were insisting that he
get up
> >and go to high school in the morning, I'd be with you. But you and he
have
> >agreed that high school is over. The next step is up to him.
>
> High school isn't over until he passes the GED. That's the rock
> bottom minimum I'll accept.
Deb, from where I sit it looks like you and your son are in the midst of a
major power struggle. There are only two ways to get out of that. You need
to negotiate with him, give him something in return for him giving you
something or you go the whole hog and drop it. Power struggles tend to turn
molehills into mountains. You're his mom, his support person. Don't turn
into his enemy.
Another thing you could do is go back to the beginning and explain why it is
so important to you that your son finishes school now. In other words what
are *your* real reasons for pushing this? Maybe if you examine your reasons
you will find out that there is another solution - another way to meet your
needs.
>
> I just don't know. I don't know what to think about the rest of what
> you wrote. It goes against my strongest gut feelings about what I owe
> him as a parent *at this point in his life, at this particular age.*
> And I could be wrong, but I could be right, too.
See that - that's a reason. You feel you owe him this. What exactly do you
owe him? Why? What other things do you owe him? Is there some other things
that you owe him that are more important? Is there another way to give him
what you owe him?
You can lose the battle and still win the war. :)
Amy
Deborah M Riel
Amy Lou <amyl...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>See that - that's a reason. You feel you owe him this. What exactly do you
>owe him? Why? What other things do you owe him? Is there some other things
>that you owe him that are more important? Is there another way to give him
>what you owe him?
>
>You can lose the battle and still win the war. :)
>
>Amy
I feel like I owe him a push out of the nest with the best possible
preparation I can offer him. Not just a drop onto hard concrete. He
has some strikes against him, and the economy sucks. I feel like I
owe him a chance to make it, and the best way *I* know how to give him
that is to offer him school. I feel like I owe him a complete job of
parenting--from babyhood through the end of adolescence, and that I
shouldn't be dropping the ball when he's not quite there yet.
I don't know if there's another way. That's why I've been worrying
this thing to death in this NG.
I'm hoping that even if I lose the battle, I'll win the war. Actually
I'm hoping to avoid war if I can...
Deb R.
Cornhuskeress
> In article <diiLc.9498$K53....@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
> Amy Lou <amyl...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
He
> has some strikes against him, and the economy sucks.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=580&e=2&u=/nm/20040720/bs_nm/economy_greenspan_dc
--
**Geri**
"My mother ... was pretty anti-American. And so was I, in some
respects, rasied with anti-Americanism in my blood, or in my mother's
milk, at least." --Peter Jennings
Deborah M Riel
Cornhuskeress <cahusk...@sbcglobalGOAWAY.net> wrote:
>
>http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=580&e=2&u=/nm/20040720/bs_nm/economy_greenspan_dc
>--
>**Geri**
That's all well and good for the economy in general, but the economy
for high school dropouts with ADHD and LDs who are 17 years old,
sucks. I'm talking microeconomics, not macroeconomics.
Deb R.
jane
>parenting--from babyhood through the end of adolescence,
See that's it. That's why we're so far apart on this. IME adolescence ends
around 30.
jane
>Deb R.
Deborah M Riel
Oh god, Jane, you're killing me. I'm falling on a sword as we speak.
Deb R.
Rupa Bose
> in school another year fine as well? He would have been there anyway.
> It's just a different school. I don't get the distinction about
> insisting he attend public high school, but not insisting he spend the
> exact same year attending a CC instead. The year's the same, the
> kid's the same. The school's better. If I have responsibilities
> towards him, doesn't it follow that he has some as well?
Deb, I don't know what the CCs are like where you are. But the
impression I have is that they're a bit more hands-off than high
school. This would make them more appropriate for people who are
already academic self-starters. Doesn't sound like that would
necessarily be a good thing for your kid.
Also, socially, I think a high school might be easier for your kid.
(Just a guess.) If his friends are all in school, then he may feel
that it is appropriate for him, too. CC might just be too...different.
>
> Plus I have
> another one of his friends living at my house again who won't go home
> for whatever reason, and it's just plain hard lately.
I hope it gets better soon.
Rupa
Wendy
"Rupa Bose" <rkb...@pacific.net.sg> wrote in message
news:e5619372.0407...@posting.google.com...
> Deb, I don't know what the CCs are like where you are. But the
> impression I have is that they're a bit more hands-off than high
> school. This would make them more appropriate for people who are
> already academic self-starters. Doesn't sound like that would
> necessarily be a good thing for your kid.
You know I thought that when my OD started at the local sixth form college,
that she'd need more supervision and structure, but she's done much better
there then she did at our local secondary school, where she was bored,
didn't like being treated like a child and couldn't see the relevance of
what she was learning to what she wanted to do. Sometimes children will
suprise you.
Wendy
Rupa Bose
This is entirely true. And it's difficult enough to assess it for
one's own kid -- it's pretty nearly impossible for a kid one has only
met through his Mom's eyes, and via an ng. So I don't know that my
input has any validity at all.
I guess I throw it in as an additional datum.
Rupa