Rape

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Willow Arune

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Apr 8, 2003, 12:05:16 AM4/8/03
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A certain person on this list has elected to make an issue out of the fact
that I was - prior to transition - raped. Being raped is not a pleasant
experience especially when it continues for six weeks. As this happened in
a foreign country where torture and such is a norm, I am rather happy to
survive and still be alive.

This person them goes on (aside from many comments suggesting that as a
post-op, I am still male and using masculine pronouns to describe me) to
suggest that I had incompetent therapists and I am not a transsexual.

Those issues I have passed long before and been able to overcome. I had
several very good therapists at the Vancouver Clinic and privately. I
overcame that issue and went on in a short time to SRS. Few would have been
able to do that. I doubt that many on this list have had to experience the
same horrible treatment prior to transition. I am thankful that most will
never have to endure what I experienced.

That someone would stoop so low in making such comments goes beyond any
civil discourse or any normal communication. It is contemptible and crass.
If nothing else, it does show clearly how base and low the person who made
those remarks is - a foul low-life who claims to be TS yet has not even
completed transition.

Yes, having been raped does indeed have an effect. Last night, the story of
the Central Park Jogger on TV and I had to turn it off. You have to try to
live with what happened and that is indeed difficult at times. My
psychiatrist still helps me with that.

I find the actions of this person beneath contempt. While I had stated I
would not respond to any further insults from her/him/it, the comments were
too extreme for me to simply pass them by.

If the rest of you on this list find this to be acceptable behaviour, then
you have my deepest pity. I hope one day you will become human. While this
group is unmoderated, it is still normal to follow civilized conduct, even
in some small matters. That such should happen and the person remain here
to harass others is perhaps unavoidable. I shall treat this person with the
contempt so richly deserved and would urge others to avoid contamination by
association - or communication - with he/she/it.

Willow

Diane

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Apr 8, 2003, 12:35:11 AM4/8/03
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On Tue, 08 Apr 2003 04:05:16 GMT, "Willow Arune"
<twofru...@shaw.ca> wrote:

> That such should happen and the person remain here
>to harass others is perhaps unavoidable. I shall treat this person with the
>contempt so richly deserved and would urge others to avoid contamination by
>association - or communication - with he/she/it.

Jennifer does have a point... you, yourself in the article about you
that you posted obviously made an issue out of your rape to the
interviewer and then linked it to your decision to transition. It
says so right here...

http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/9630/n990127a.htm
"Willow decided to reverse her gender after a harrowing two years as a
man in Thailand. (S)he travelled there in 1995 to make a loan
transaction with two Americans who authorities later learned had
forged documents. All three were arrested, and Willow - then known as
Will - spent six weeks in a Bangkok prison, where he was repeatedly
raped by the guards.

When he got out on bail, the Thai authorities withheld his passport.
He sought psychological counselling, and his therapist suggested
becoming a woman. "

Since you, yourself, have brought up the issue, publicized it and
linked it to your decision to transition then it would appear
disingenuous at best for you to berate Jennifer for bringing it up
herself.

Willow Arune

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Apr 8, 2003, 1:34:12 AM4/8/03
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The matter had been cross Canada news for two years - it was hardly new. It
is a fact that it happened. I suppose to you a woman who is named as a rape
victim is publicizing the event. My goodness - the poor Central Park
Jogger! You must see here as a publicity mad zealot!!! No doubt she
deserved what happened - in fact, she probably arranged it for the
publicity!!!

If you had at any time dealt with the media, you would know that one rarely
has the ability to limit what is written, and how the story is presented.
The more public a figure you are (and I was) and the more "sensational" the
story is (i.e. any reference to sex) the less control you have.

Perhaps this is a waste of time. As you implied in an earlier post, you
have had a different life. Perhaps a sheltered one. My experiences are
very different from yours and communication thus suffers.

Yes, I take issue with any person who belittles another for being a victim.

Willow


Diane

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Apr 8, 2003, 1:46:15 AM4/8/03
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On Tue, 08 Apr 2003 05:34:12 GMT, "Willow Arune"
<twofru...@shaw.ca> wrote:

>The matter had been cross Canada news for two years - it was hardly new. It
>is a fact that it happened. I suppose to you a woman who is named as a rape
>victim is publicizing the event.

An extremely disingenuous statement from someone who is attempting to
make making a career out of his (at the time) rape incident.

Per: http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/9630/n990127a.htm

"A production company has optioned the rights for a screenplay she
wrote about her nightmare in Thailand"

So even you Willow can not have it both ways. You can either
self-promote your rape via screenplays and such or you can be
indignant when someone makes a reference to it. I would counsel you
to "Choose one", but of course you already have.

>If you had at any time dealt with the media, you would know that one rarely
>has the ability to limit what is written, and how the story is presented.

I know that if you had not mentioned your rape in a Canadian newspaper
and then attempted to option it out for a screenplay, we would not be
talking about this now.

>Yes, I take issue with any person who belittles another for being a victim.

And I take issue with anyone who prostitutes and parades their
victimhood, whether it be as a transsexual or a rape victim, in the
apparent interests of self-promotion.

Paulinev01

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Apr 8, 2003, 2:37:41 PM4/8/03
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>http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/9630/n990127a.htm

>"Willow decided to reverse her gender after a harrowing two years as a
>man in Thailand.

is there any independant verification available of this, or is it just the
story she told to a reporter and the publication that we have to believe?

WHEN ITS TIME ITS TIME

the hardest step of any journey is the first, the most satisfying is the last.

www.TSTGSociety.org

PAULINE/Paula

Diane

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Apr 8, 2003, 4:13:45 PM4/8/03
to
On 08 Apr 2003 18:37:41 GMT, pauli...@cs.com (Paulinev01) wrote:

>>http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/9630/n990127a.htm
>
>>"Willow decided to reverse her gender after a harrowing two years as a
>>man in Thailand.
>
>is there any independant verification available of this, or is it just the
>story she told to a reporter and the publication that we have to believe?

Willow doesn't deny this so we should presume that it's true. I would
imagine that the story is probably much more complicated then that
single sentence.

I've also known several crossdressers who later in life (50's, 60's)
decided to either go full time and/or get SRS. One of them backed out
the evening before hir SRS in Oregon. In any case, it does happen but
I don't tend to think of such people as female really.... more
transgendered (or gender confused) then anything else.


Amanda Angelika

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Apr 8, 2003, 4:42:12 PM4/8/03
to
Behold Paulinev01 at <pauli...@cs.com> Spake unto us in news scroll
news:20030408143741...@mb-fu.news.cs.com
and didst say:

|| http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/9630/n990127a.htm
|
|| "Willow decided to reverse her gender after a harrowing two years as
|| a man in Thailand.
|
| is there any independant verification available of this, or is it
| just the story she told to a reporter and the publication that we
| have to believe?
|

Mmm It looks fairly typical piece of bad tabloid style journalism to me. The first
paragraph says it all, though the bit about going to a restaurant to have hormones is
gem. All thats missing is a topless photo LOL

I think if I was in Willow's position, I think I would be very angry about it makes
it all seem so trivial and sounds more like peice of satire than a serious, sensitive
and respectful account of events.

--
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Diane

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Apr 8, 2003, 5:01:52 PM4/8/03
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On Tue, 8 Apr 2003 21:42:12 +0100, "Amanda Angelika"
<manic...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>I think if I was in Willow's position, I think I would be very angry about it makes
>it all seem so trivial and sounds more like peice of satire than a serious, sensitive
>and respectful account of events.

I think you may be missing the obvious conclusion that this was all
related to the journalist by Willow hirself.

Jennifer Usher

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Apr 8, 2003, 5:59:13 PM4/8/03
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"Willow Arune" <twofru...@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:<0Urka.73269$vs.57...@news3.calgary.shaw.ca>...

> A certain person on this list has elected to make an issue out of the fact
> that I was - prior to transition - raped. Being raped is not a pleasant
> experience especially when it continues for six weeks. As this happened in
> a foreign country where torture and such is a norm, I am rather happy to
> survive and still be alive.

No, a certain person on this list has chosen to make an issue out of
the fact that you transitioned after a therapist advised it as a
treatment for your being raped.

> This person them goes on (aside from many comments suggesting that as a
> post-op, I am still male and using masculine pronouns to describe me) to
> suggest that I had incompetent therapists and I am not a transsexual.

Suggest? No, I think I pretty much asserted those facts.

> Those issues I have passed long before and been able to overcome. I had
> several very good therapists at the Vancouver Clinic and privately. I
> overcame that issue and went on in a short time to SRS. Few would have been
> able to do that. I doubt that many on this list have had to experience the
> same horrible treatment prior to transition. I am thankful that most will
> never have to endure what I experienced.

No, most of us have not. And most, if not all of the rest of us would
not consider such a valid reason to transition and seek surgery.
Especially in a short time.

> That someone would stoop so low in making such comments goes beyond any
> civil discourse or any normal communication. It is contemptible and crass.
> If nothing else, it does show clearly how base and low the person who made
> those remarks is - a foul low-life who claims to be TS yet has not even
> completed transition.

Well, it is clear I have not missed the mark on this one.

> Yes, having been raped does indeed have an effect. Last night, the story of
> the Central Park Jogger on TV and I had to turn it off. You have to try to
> live with what happened and that is indeed difficult at times. My
> psychiatrist still helps me with that.

I don't take rape lightly. Both one of my dearest friends, and my
daughter have been through that experience. Funny thing, neither of
them has felt the slightest need to change gender.

> I find the actions of this person beneath contempt. While I had stated I
> would not respond to any further insults from her/him/it, the comments were
> too extreme for me to simply pass them by.

Yeah, yeah, yeah....I've pulled this one myself.

> If the rest of you on this list find this to be acceptable behaviour, then
> you have my deepest pity. I hope one day you will become human. While this
> group is unmoderated, it is still normal to follow civilized conduct, even
> in some small matters. That such should happen and the person remain here
> to harass others is perhaps unavoidable. I shall treat this person with the
> contempt so richly deserved and would urge others to avoid contamination by
> association - or communication - with he/she/it.

Ah, the dreaded pity card. You can't refute what I said, as it is
based on facts that you made public. Sorry sir, but your remarks
change nothing.

Jennifer Usher

Jennifer Usher

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Apr 8, 2003, 6:07:04 PM4/8/03
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Diane <diane...@phhhhhffft.org> wrote in message news:<v94kco7...@news.supernews.com>...

Thank you Diane. This person weaves and bobs like a sleazy politician.

Jennifer Usher

Jennifer Usher

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Apr 8, 2003, 6:13:14 PM4/8/03
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"Willow Arune" <twofru...@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:<obtka.672627$Yo4.53...@news1.calgary.shaw.ca>...

> The matter had been cross Canada news for two years - it was hardly new. It
> is a fact that it happened. I suppose to you a woman who is named as a rape
> victim is publicizing the event. My goodness - the poor Central Park
> Jogger! You must see here as a publicity mad zealot!!! No doubt she
> deserved what happened - in fact, she probably arranged it for the
> publicity!!!

No, I think the names of rape victims should NEVER be publicized. But
let's keep the facts straight here. You were not a woman who was
raped. You were a man who was involved in a shady deal, and you got
caught. Lot's of men get raped in prison. Funny, they don't usually
decide to transition and change sex.

> If you had at any time dealt with the media, you would know that one rarely
> has the ability to limit what is written, and how the story is presented.
> The more public a figure you are (and I was) and the more "sensational" the
> story is (i.e. any reference to sex) the less control you have.

YOU mentioned it to a writer covering YOUR decision to change sex.
The way it is written makes it clear that YOU identified your rape as
the reason that YOU decided to change sex.

> Perhaps this is a waste of time. As you implied in an earlier post, you
> have had a different life. Perhaps a sheltered one. My experiences are
> very different from yours and communication thus suffers.

Yes, Diane has had a different life. She is a transsexual, you
clearly were not. Granted, it IS arguable that you are one now.

> Yes, I take issue with any person who belittles another for being a victim.

Sorry, but NO ONE has belittled you for being a victim. You have been
belittled for being a pompous jerk who has come into this newsgroup
and told we are delusional and ashamed unless we are following your
example and identifying as out, loud, and proud "transsexual women."
I am neither. In fact, most of the time I tend to forget I am even a
transsexual at all.

Jennifer Usher

Jennifer Usher

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Apr 8, 2003, 6:15:24 PM4/8/03
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Diane <diane...@phhhhhffft.org> wrote in message news:<v94oi0b...@news.supernews.com>...

> On Tue, 08 Apr 2003 05:34:12 GMT, "Willow Arune"
> <twofru...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> >The matter had been cross Canada news for two years - it was hardly new. It
> >is a fact that it happened. I suppose to you a woman who is named as a rape
> >victim is publicizing the event.
>
> An extremely disingenuous statement from someone who is attempting to
> make making a career out of his (at the time) rape incident.
>
> Per: http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/9630/n990127a.htm
>
> "A production company has optioned the rights for a screenplay she
> wrote about her nightmare in Thailand"

You know, that is all we need. Some idiot teaching the world that men
decide to be women because they got sodomized. That is really going
to help educate people.

> So even you Willow can not have it both ways. You can either
> self-promote your rape via screenplays and such or you can be
> indignant when someone makes a reference to it. I would counsel you
> to "Choose one", but of course you already have.
>
> >If you had at any time dealt with the media, you would know that one rarely
> >has the ability to limit what is written, and how the story is presented.
>
> I know that if you had not mentioned your rape in a Canadian newspaper
> and then attempted to option it out for a screenplay, we would not be
> talking about this now.
>
> >Yes, I take issue with any person who belittles another for being a victim.
>
> And I take issue with anyone who prostitutes and parades their
> victimhood, whether it be as a transsexual or a rape victim, in the
> apparent interests of self-promotion.

Well put Diane.

Jennifer Usher

Jennifer Usher

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Apr 8, 2003, 6:19:19 PM4/8/03
to
pauli...@cs.com (Paulinev01) wrote in message news:<20030408143741...@mb-fu.news.cs.com>...

> >http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/9630/n990127a.htm
>
> >"Willow decided to reverse her gender after a harrowing two years as a
> >man in Thailand.
>
> is there any independant verification available of this, or is it just the
> story she told to a reporter and the publication that we have to believe?

Let's see... Thid was interviewed, posted a link to the article, and
never stated that there were any errors or misquotes in it. Looks
pretty much like all the verification anyone could ask for.

And this sort of thing is not without precedent. I read a book
several years ago by a "former transsexual" who reverted after getting
religion. It was obvious that he was NEVER a transsexual and that a
therapist had pushed him into having surgery.

Jennifer Usher

Paulinev01

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Apr 8, 2003, 7:56:47 PM4/8/03
to
>> >"Willow decided to reverse her gender after a harrowing two years as a
>> >man in Thailand.
>>

Thialand is one of the more gender nuteral nations. They have various ways of
dealing with gender. If there were a problem with the law there and she spent
time in jail, was raped it would be more likely that she would have been taken
to an airport and sent back to the united states. If on the other hand she were
free inThialand and detained for no ligt reason the american Embasy would have
reissued her pasport and taken her out of the country.

Seeing a tharapist there would have been useless unless volintary. I love
Thialans, the people are wonderful. I hope to go back one day, I lived there
for a years in the 60"s. ( the war you know).

I would like to see independant varification of her story so as to see if these
people would have taken and abused her this way.

The story is tragic, but having bought into lmany storys in the past I wish
proof. Did it happen, or did she make it up , give it to a reporter and try to
sell it as a movie.

Hell, If its fiction its one hell of a good one. if true, a very bad inditement
for the people who mis treated her.

Amanda Angelika

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Apr 8, 2003, 8:59:41 PM4/8/03
to
Behold Diane at <diane...@phhhhhffft.org> Spake unto us in news scroll
news:v96e6pn...@news.supernews.com
and didst say:

Well not impossible I don't know Willow at all really. I suppose one does wonder why,
if the story is true why it sounds like a tale of BDSM/ enforced feminisation and you
put 2 + 2 together and it comes to Transvestite! LOL.

That said though having had some minor dealings with journalists myself and having
known others who have even appeared in National Newspapers and TV in the UK. The way
journalists write things in relation to TG and TS people can often be insensitive,
sensationalised, cliched, popularist, and border on soft tranny porn in it's style.
So I dare say this could be the case.

Mind one does wonder why she hasn't done what a friend of mine once did and go round
and throttle the journalist LOL ;) Though I suppose sometimes people can get so
carried away with the notariety of appearing in a Newspaper, they turn a blind eye to
the fact that everything they said has been twisted round to some kind of "angle" and
in many ways their innocence and trust has been abused, at worse journalism can
sometimes seem like a form of psycholgical rape in itself.

Diane

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Apr 8, 2003, 9:36:07 PM4/8/03
to
On Wed, 9 Apr 2003 01:59:41 +0100, "Amanda Angelika"
<manic...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Mind one does wonder why she hasn't done what a friend of mine once did and go round
>and throttle the journalist LOL ;)

I doubt that the journalist ( or anyone else) would have known what
had transpired in a prison in Thailand unless Willow herself provided
in the details. The bit about the therapist suggesting transition as
a "cure" for the problems the prison rape brought up is something that
only could have been relayed by Willow as well.

Of course it is always possible that the journalist got things badly
screwed up but then one would not have expected Willow to so readily
point us to that article to verify things that she had said.

I've seen self-promoting trannies for years (usually on day time TV)
and I'm not impressed. Changing sex in the hopes of becoming some
sort of hero or movie star is, IMHO, an incredibly bad idea and one
that rarely, if ever these days, pans out. Fortunately we're just too
common - the days of Christine Jorgenson and Renee Richards are
thankfully long past.

Amanda Angelika

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Apr 9, 2003, 8:37:14 AM4/9/03
to
Behold Diane at <diane...@phhhhhffft.org> Spake unto us in news scroll
news:v96u90p...@news.supernews.com
and didst say:

| On Wed, 9 Apr 2003 01:59:41 +0100, "Amanda Angelika"
| <manic...@hotmail.com> wrote:
|| Mind one does wonder why she hasn't done what a friend of mine once
|| did and go round and throttle the journalist LOL ;)
|
| I doubt that the journalist ( or anyone else) would have known what
| had transpired in a prison in Thailand unless Willow herself provided
| in the details. The bit about the therapist suggesting transition as
| a "cure" for the problems the prison rape brought up is something that
| only could have been relayed by Willow as well.
|
| Of course it is always possible that the journalist got things badly
| screwed up but then one would not have expected Willow to so readily
| point us to that article to verify things that she had said.

Yes that's true. It's difficult to say I suppose. I did have a journalism student
create a Website about me as a University project once. And also had a minor
appearance in a Welsh language TV program about the sex lives of the Welsh (I'm
afraid
A Post Op Welsh speaking Transsexual Vicar, stole the lime-lite there, well I just
couldn't compete there. ;) ) Also once appeared in a local Freebee Fashion and
Culture magazine as part of an article publicising a club.

Since I had only just gone full-time at the time I realised from these minor
incidents of notoriety that one can do without that sort of thing. Well it can
prevent one from living ones life quietly as a relatively ordinary person let alone
as a woman and has the potential to create more problems in one's life than it is
worth.

| I've seen self-promoting trannies for years (usually on day time TV)
| and I'm not impressed. Changing sex in the hopes of becoming some
| sort of hero or movie star is, IMHO, an incredibly bad idea and one
| that rarely, if ever these days, pans out. Fortunately we're just too
| common - the days of Christine Jorgenson and Renee Richards are
| thankfully long past.

I suppose if it were possible to attract huge amounts of money through this sort of
thing it might have some attraction, but generally notoriety of this sort is a pain
in the butt and has the potential to interfere in a very negative way in ones life,
and as you point out the days of TS rarity and the potential for big bucks are long
gone. Well even the Vicar only got 50 quid and was still complaining about having
difficulties in using Ladies rest rooms in her home village, I wonder why ;?
Trannies on TV is seen as Low budget "reality" TV and IMO one gets involved in it
entirely at one's own risk and/or through one's own stupidity.

Well I suppose it sounds a bit condemning of Willows motives. But it does appear from
that article even if it is half true that her transition period has been very short
and it can I think take a while to learn about the pitfalls of publicity as a TS, or
even as a full-time TG person for that matter.

One notable aspect about it though, is there is no picture, and Willow may not be
entirely who or what she says she is. This doesn't necessarily the person behind this
is not TS or TG but it seems unlikely that anyone desirous of a quiet unmolested life
as a TS Woman would want to do this sort of thing. But then it takes all sorts to
make up a world and if one is willing to pay the price of this sort of notoriety then
it's fair enough.

Willow Arune

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Apr 9, 2003, 11:00:42 AM4/9/03
to
Just what independent evidence would you like? Other news stories -
including those from the trial. The material I got under the Privacy Act
from Ottawa? Given the nature of negative comments thus far, I personally
would not be willing to provide anything more to a group such as this.

I most certainly was not involved in a shady deal as is suggested as is
shown by the fact that our Leader of the Opposition in the House of Commons
flew to Bangkok to get me out of the Thai clutches, something historically
unique. A national leader does not waste his time of energy on a person who
simple gets caught.

Willow


Willow Arune

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Apr 9, 2003, 11:12:26 AM4/9/03
to
Pauline,

The American embassy would do nothing - I am Canadian. Our small embassy
did what they could but the real push to get me out of the country came when
Preston Manning, the leader of our Opposition in the House of Commons and
his Foreign Affairs Critic, Bob Mills, flew to Thailand to drive a deal with
the Thai government to get me out of the country. that was and remains an
historical first, one and only. Political leaders do not do that as a rule,
one testament to my prior status and profile.

Oh yes, the four Thai judges were bribed to let me out on bail after seven
weeks. They did not give receipts.

Or would you prefer the notes of the psychiatrist who has treated me for
five years for PTSD? Of course, I might demand proof of your stores as
well, if they were of interest in any way.

Proof? What sillies?

Willow


Willow Arune

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Apr 9, 2003, 11:20:11 AM4/9/03
to
"Support" is part of the title of this organization. Rather silly word to
use for what happens here.

I am dismayed and disquisted at the posts regarding my Thai experience. I
have replied to those posted that seemed to contain more than insults, but
most certainly any other victim will never come forward in this group to
seek assistance after this effort by Jennifer Usher and Diane. Demanding
proof is right off the wall - the story was covered nationally for over two
years.

As to the bad taste in using the wrong pronouns, I thought that stupid game
ceased long ago - and it has in most civil TS groups. Even stupider when
the person making the comment still has a penis and yet calls herself a
woman. Bah! Humbug! the group of you are loathsome creatures that seem to
delight in slinking about in the mud... You are so distorted you cannot
recognize a person who honours her reputation and is credited for that.

Willow

Willow Arune

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Apr 9, 2003, 1:18:09 PM4/9/03
to
Amanda,

You speak from your experiences. Let me speak from mine...

Firstly, as a lawyer I had a high public profile in B.C. - higher than your
vicar. I had been involved politically, had my own TV program for four
years (and no, I do not intend to provide "proof" of this to any standard).
When I departed for Thailand, I had a rich history of community service and
was very well known.

The incidents in Thailand were carried from coast to coast in Canada. I was
finally let out of the country after our Leader of the Opposition in the
House of Commons flew over to drive a deal with the Thai government - again
under the view of the press. As I saw it then and now, the publicity in
Canada kept me safe - it is easy to be killed in Bangkok and the deed only
costs $20US. Petty cash for Citibank and the Royal Thai police. Does your
Leader of the Opposition in the House of Commons even know your name?? Or
Tony Blaire. If not, you are in a different world and ill equipped to offer
judgments.

Now, after returning, the very first interview asked the question "Were you
raped". I answered "yes" and that was all. The media followed from there.

After some time, newspapers follow up on stories. They had covered the
original story, knew that I was of interest, and contacted me to find
Willow. The result is obvious - or should be. while you may have been
permitted to return to obscurity, I did not have that luxury. It was then
that I wrote the screenplay and sold the rights to my life story - simply to
get my point across. Many saw news of the initial - and corrupt - arrest.
That had damaged my reputation in some circles. I needed to correct that.

I repeat - all of you are basing comments on very partial information. Do
you seriously believe a rape victim wants to talk about that???!!!.
Nonsense. But by not talking, the Thai government would have been given a
free ride. Instead, I became a thorn in their side. And still am. I
became a witness against them during extratadition proceedings in another
matter, as I am also a witness against the accused in the Air India bombing
of 12 years ago. That resulted in FBI protective surveillance as I was
living in the United States during the first Air India trail.

Low budget reality TV?? Heck no - top in the media for an interview on a
daily TV show. The host, a friend for over 25 years, introduced me as the
most honest and trustworthy person he had ever known. No Jerry Springer.
The newspapers - feature articles not shoved onto the back pages. My return
from Thailand - front page above the fold. Oh yes, someone, maybe you,
mentioned photos to prove who I was. What tripe! If attachments were
permitted here, I might - but that would only result in JU and DM commencing
an insulting series of posts as two how I looked - without the opportunity
to reply. Am I the entity? Damn rights I am, honey. And at 56, I look
very good but have no desire to "prove" that to the group who inhabit this
list. Do you know how insulting you are to even ask that???

"One's own risk and stupidity"?? For you, perhaps. Those who are not
public can easily crawl back into the shadows. That type of assumption
belongs to JU.
How quick you and this group are to rush to judgment - to malign others
based only on your won experiences. Yet you hold up hold up the banner of
"support".

As to an unmolested life, I determined during transition that I would use my
skills to help the TS/TG community, to gain the rights we need. Your birth
certificate laws are changing. Would that have happened unless some were
willing to stand up and be counted. Of course not. Yet you, who did
nothing, get a benefit. Nice, that. I am using my legal and political
skills to advance TS/TG rights in Canada, my country. Unlike, you, and JU
and DM (or so I assume) who do nothing, I am indeed doing something. And
honey, when you do something for our community you are public no matter what
you wish to be.

Fine, lay back and take a free ride. That's what you appear to be doing.
But remember that some must step forward to get you that free ride. The way
I see things, you then turn around and insult the very people who made an
easier life for you possible. And I have my own view of that type of
person...

Go back to doing nothing. Sure, someone will go out and gain you rights
without you lifting a finger. And instead of supporting the person who
tries, rip them apart when you can from your shallow principles.

I am accused of telling those here how to do things. Not a bit. Just
continue to sit back and enjoy the free ride, as you are doing. Don't march
for justice, don't fight for marriage rights or name change. Let others do
that. Continue in mediocrity and nothingness. Hide, but all means.

Bah! Maybe the Welch are as Churchill said...

Willow


Elaine

unread,
Apr 9, 2003, 1:52:19 PM4/9/03
to

"Willow Arune" <twofru...@shaw.ca> wrote

> Fine, lay back and take a free ride. That's what you appear to be doing.
> But remember that some must step forward to get you that free ride. The
way
> I see things, you then turn around and insult the very people who made an
> easier life for you possible. And I have my own view of that type of
> person...
>
> Go back to doing nothing. Sure, someone will go out and gain you rights
> without you lifting a finger. And instead of supporting the person who
> tries, rip them apart when you can from your shallow principles.

That is simply not true. No one gets a "free ride", especially now with the
activists becoming more visible each day.

I read of problems transsexual people have here and the only thing I can
attribute it to is the increased awareness of society, an awareness that
seems to be mostly negative.

I transitioned before the internet....before Jerry Springer, and overall I
can say that I had few problems. I began being as stealth as I could and I
had no problems changing my credentials. After SRS, changing my birth
certificate was a simple matter. I did have a severe financial struggle but
no more so than any other person beginning in a new place with few contacts
and armed only with skills in a field that at that time was dominated by
men.

I will support, in any way I can, those women struggling quietly through
transition, but I would not even acknowledge the transgendered activist
groups which unnecessarily include transsexual people in their agenda and
are succeeding only in slowing down and possibly even reversing the gains
made by them over the last 40 years.

As I said.....I would really hate to try to transition today........I feel
like I was the one who really had the "free ride".


Amanda Angelika

unread,
Apr 9, 2003, 2:19:59 PM4/9/03
to

"Willow Arune" <twofru...@shaw.ca> wrote in message

news:lBYka.683253$Yo4.57...@news1.calgary.shaw.ca...


Well you know what they say
"Angels Fly Because They Take Themselves Lightly"
LOL ;)

Diane

unread,
Apr 9, 2003, 2:35:50 PM4/9/03
to
On Wed, 9 Apr 2003 13:37:14 +0100, "Amanda Angelika"
<manic...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>One notable aspect about it though, is there is no picture, and Willow may not be
>entirely who or what she says she is

Understandable sentiment considering the kind of people who have come
here.... But Willow is exactly who she says that she is. Picture is
here:

http://profiles.yahoo.com/willow_arune


Willow Arune

unread,
Apr 9, 2003, 2:44:58 PM4/9/03
to
Dear Laura,

You are indeed right. You know, it make me wonder who we try to gain rights
for these types. After a session here, I must confess I would love to leave
them in the mud they create for themselves. After all, I am fine with my
life as you are with yours.

Happily, other groups have more support and courtesy. The minority here do
not represent most TS/TG people. They represent a small cancer at best.
The majority here are content - or so it seems - to sit back and say or do
nothing, from fear of attack if no other reason. That is the silent
majority everywhere. It is impossible to get them to do anything - even to
defend themselves.

I am puzzled why this group even exists. This is supposed to represent
"support"? for whom??? At best, it is a bad sit-com for JU and DM - and a
few others I suppose.

Hugs,
Willow


Diane

unread,
Apr 9, 2003, 2:52:03 PM4/9/03
to
On Wed, 09 Apr 2003 15:12:26 GMT, "Willow Arune"
<twofru...@shaw.ca> wrote:

>
>Or would you prefer the notes of the psychiatrist who has treated me for
>five years for PTSD? Of course, I might demand proof of your stores as
>well, if they were of interest in any way.


I think that people are naturally concerned with the link between your
experience and the decision to get SRS thereafter. The newspaper
article that you quoted indicated that your decision to transition
occurred because of your rape experience while still in jail.

This naturally sets of some red flags to most post-ops who's personal
experience and the experience of all they have met thus far has been
that TSs feel that they need to change gender from a very early age.

I would ask you if you had been an active crossdresser from an early
age - my assumption is that you had been. I gave known
crossdressers who decided to go full time to varying degrees later on
in life - late fifties to sixties - as you have done. I know of
possibly only one other TS who choose to wait such a long time - most
of us are unable to survive that long.

So I put together your extremely late transition along with your
obvious identification with non-TS individuals, transgendered people
and drag queens (Lyle, Jenice, etc) and wonder if you are one of
those individuals who are primarily a crossdresser and then decided to
go further in their fifties. I don't know one way or another of
course but I do know that your experience (lack of prior strong need
to change physical sex, extremely late transition, etc) is much
different from the other TSs that I have encountered.


Diane

unread,
Apr 9, 2003, 2:57:00 PM4/9/03
to
On Wed, 09 Apr 2003 15:20:11 GMT, "Willow Arune"
<twofru...@shaw.ca> wrote:

>but
>most certainly any other victim will never come forward in this group to
>seek assistance after this effort by Jennifer Usher and Diane. Demanding
>proof is right off the wall - the story was covered nationally for over two
>years.

You continually insist on misinterpreting what I am saying. By the
numbers (once again)....

1. I do not now nor ever have demanded proof of your experience. I
take you at your word that rape occurred while you were a man in a
men's prison in Thailand.

2. My only point of contention is your pretending to be victimized by
this discussion while AT THE SAME TIME publicizing your rape
experience in various newspapers and even attempting to write a
screenplay about it.

3. You can not have it both ways. You can not be indignant about some
alleged invasion of your privacy about an incident while at the same
time putting the incident up for sale on the big screen.

Diane

unread,
Apr 9, 2003, 3:00:28 PM4/9/03
to
On Wed, 09 Apr 2003 12:09:32 -0400, L D Blake <ldb...@sympatico.ca>
wrote:

>This is a wise decision Willow. I have, over the years, provided various
>references and documentary proof to people here and the result was always the
>same... my references received highly defamatory e-mails and any proof fell to
>accusations of forgery.

From www.trannytrolls.us

Laura sometimes claims to have 10,000 pages of documentation in his
"files" about transgendered issues

Laura Blake said:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=986ctt%24rga%243%40plutonium.btinternet.com&OE=UTF-8&output=gplain
> My e-mail (ldb...@region.net) and phone number (1-905-688-1309) are
both
> in the FAQ, they are both direct to me contacts, I will answer both or
> either personally... If you want references I will be happy to provide
> them. If you want to see documentation, I've over 10,000 pages in my files
> to back up my claims.


..............sometimes though it's only 5,000 pages....

Laura Blake said:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=z3vll2xp.csfx%40xpiwn.net&OE=UTF-8&output=gplain
>Once again she's
>incorrect and about 5,000 pages of correspondence in my files will show that
>much to anyone who cares to look.

............. and sometimes it's 20,000 pages <g>

Laura Blake said:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=37bb4550.6964209%40news.sprint.ca&OE=UTF-&output=gplain
>I'm not going to dump 30 years of
>investigation, 20,000 pages of files, and 10 years of successfule advocacy
>work out the window, just because 6 or 8 braind dead transsexuals can't
>leave me alone.

Sometimes Laura confuses the number of pages of transgendered
documentation he has with the hate mail that he claims to receive ...

Laura Blake said:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=xSV%258.628%240m5.7354%40eagle.america.net&OE=UTF-8&output=gplain
> I gotta tell ya, you are one sure stupid waste of skin... 10,000+
pieces of
> hate mail posted over a 10 year period and you STILL don't even know who you
> are harassing.

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=ywmU8.218322%24R61.78864%40rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net&OE=UTF-&output=gplain
>We are discussing
> about 30,000 pieces of hate mail, all the dirty tricks, false police
> reports, harassing phone calls and the whole stalker gambit.


The only thing for sure is that Laura likes really big numbers <g>.

Jennifer Usher

unread,
Apr 9, 2003, 3:07:44 PM4/9/03
to
"Willow Arune" <twofru...@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:<uAWka.85572$vs.78...@news3.calgary.shaw.ca>...

Another round of weaving, ducking, and dodging. The question at hand
is, did the person using the name Willow have SRS as a result of being
sodomized in a Thailand prison? Notice how this person avoids that
issue, and tries to misdirect the discussion?

Jennifer Usher

Jennifer Usher

unread,
Apr 9, 2003, 3:10:41 PM4/9/03
to
"Amanda Angelika" <manic...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<b6vbm7$9cacn$1...@ID-172934.news.dfncis.de>...

> Behold Paulinev01 at <pauli...@cs.com> Spake unto us in news scroll
> news:20030408143741...@mb-fu.news.cs.com
> and didst say:
> || http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/9630/n990127a.htm
>
> || "Willow decided to reverse her gender after a harrowing two years as
> || a man in Thailand.
> |
> | is there any independant verification available of this, or is it
> | just the story she told to a reporter and the publication that we
> | have to believe?
> |
>
> Mmm It looks fairly typical piece of bad tabloid style journalism to me. The first
> paragraph says it all, though the bit about going to a restaurant to have hormones is
> gem. All thats missing is a topless photo LOL

I disagree. It sounds like the journalist was honest. That this
person does not pass, and that Willow's quotes were the basis of the
statement that SRS was sought because of the rape.

> I think if I was in Willow's position, I think I would be very angry about it makes
> it all seem so trivial and sounds more like peice of satire than a serious, sensitive
> and respectful account of events.

BUT, Willow is obviously quite proud of it.

Jennifer Usher

Jennifer Usher

unread,
Apr 9, 2003, 3:13:05 PM4/9/03
to
"Amanda Angelika" <manic...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<b6vqrd$8rk3o$1...@ID-172934.news.dfncis.de>...


> Well not impossible I don't know Willow at all really. I suppose one does wonder why,
> if the story is true why it sounds like a tale of BDSM/ enforced feminisation and you
> put 2 + 2 together and it comes to Transvestite! LOL.

Actually, it probably sounds that way because that is what is at the
heart of the whole thing.

> That said though having had some minor dealings with journalists myself and having
> known others who have even appeared in National Newspapers and TV in the UK. The way
> journalists write things in relation to TG and TS people can often be insensitive,
> sensationalised, cliched, popularist, and border on soft tranny porn in it's style.
> So I dare say this could be the case.
>
> Mind one does wonder why she hasn't done what a friend of mine once did and go round
> and throttle the journalist LOL ;) Though I suppose sometimes people can get so
> carried away with the notariety of appearing in a Newspaper, they turn a blind eye to
> the fact that everything they said has been twisted round to some kind of "angle" and
> in many ways their innocence and trust has been abused, at worse journalism can
> sometimes seem like a form of psycholgical rape in itself.

Again, the person using the name "Willow" clearly is proud of the
story. So, it must stand on its own merits.

Jennifer Usher

Diane

unread,
Apr 9, 2003, 3:18:49 PM4/9/03
to
On Wed, 09 Apr 2003 17:18:09 GMT, "Willow Arune"
<twofru...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>You speak from your experiences. Let me speak from mine...
>
>Firstly, as a lawyer I had a high public profile in B.C. - higher than your
>vicar. I had been involved politically, had my own TV program for four
>years (and no, I do not intend to provide "proof" of this to any standard).
>When I departed for Thailand, I had a rich history of community service and
>was very well known.

TRANSLATION: How many times do I have to tell you people that I am a
big an important person ? Sheesh!


>The incidents in Thailand were carried from coast to coast in Canada. I was
>finally let out of the country after our Leader of the Opposition in the
>House of Commons flew over to drive a deal with the Thai government - again
>under the view of the press. As I saw it then and now, the publicity in
>Canada kept me safe - it is easy to be killed in Bangkok and the deed only
>costs $20US. Petty cash for Citibank and the Royal Thai police. Does your
>Leader of the Opposition in the House of Commons even know your name?? Or
>Tony Blaire. If not, you are in a different world and ill equipped to offer
>judgments.

TRANSLATION: How many times do I have to tell you people that I am a
big an important person ? Sheesh! Apparently one more time.


>Now, after returning, the very first interview asked the question "Were you
>raped". I answered "yes" and that was all. The media followed from there.

TRANSLATION: Spin


>I repeat - all of you are basing comments on very partial information. Do
>you seriously believe a rape victim wants to talk about that???!!!.

TRANSLATION: I'm not going to talk about it. So you'll just have to
see my move or buy my book!


>Nonsense. But by not talking, the Thai government would have been given a
>free ride. Instead, I became a thorn in their side. And still am. I
>became a witness against them during extratadition proceedings in another
>matter, as I am also a witness against the accused in the Air India bombing
>of 12 years ago. That resulted in FBI protective surveillance as I was
>living in the United States during the first Air India trail.

TRANSLATION: I'm still a celebrity....


>Low budget reality TV?? Heck no - top in the media for an interview on a
>daily TV show

TRANSLATION:You *do* remember that I'm important don't you?


>As to an unmolested life, I determined during transition that I would use my
>skills to help the TS/TG community, to gain the rights we need. Your birth
>certificate laws are changing. Would that have happened unless some were
>willing to stand up and be counted.

TRANSLATION: I;m going to link myself to important stuff that I had
nothing to do with again....

> Of course not. Yet you, who did
>nothing, get a benefit. Nice, that.

TRANSLATION: I'm better then you are nyah...nyah..nyah....


> I am using my legal and political
>skills to advance TS/TG rights in Canada, my country. Unlike, you, and JU
>and DM (or so I assume) who do nothing, I am indeed doing something. And
>honey, when you do something for our community you are public no matter what
>you wish to be.

TRANSLATION: I didn't WANT to write a screenplay about my rape ... I
NEEDED to in order to help YOU. You do see that don't you?


>Fine, lay back and take a free ride. That's what you appear to be doing.
>But remember that some must step forward to get you that free ride. The way
>I see things, you then turn around and insult the very people who made an
>easier life for you possible

TRANSLATION: Jesus Christ! Not only am I important - I'm a martyr
for you guys! I forgive you though you for you know not what you
do....

>I am accused of telling those here how to do things. Not a bit. Just
>continue to sit back and enjoy the free ride, as you are doing. Don't march
>for justice, don't fight for marriage rights or name change. Let others do
>that. Continue in mediocrity and nothingness. Hide, but all means.
>
>Bah! Maybe the Welch are as Churchill said...

TRANSLATION: And SCREW YOU if you don'; think I'm important!

Diane

unread,
Apr 9, 2003, 3:22:19 PM4/9/03
to
On Wed, 09 Apr 2003 18:44:58 GMT, "Willow Arune"
<twofru...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>Happily, other groups have more support and courtesy. The minority here do
>not represent most TS/TG people. They represent a small cancer at best.
>The majority here are content - or so it seems - to sit back and say or do
>nothing, from fear of attack if no other reason. That is the silent
>majority everywhere. It is impossible to get them to do anything - even to
>defend themselves.


Could be also that we've waded in enough bullsh*t flowing through here
that the hip waders are giving us a rash??

Diane

unread,
Apr 9, 2003, 3:23:44 PM4/9/03
to
On 9 Apr 2003 12:07:44 -0700, jenni...@earthlink.net (Jennifer

Usher) wrote:
>Another round of weaving, ducking, and dodging. The question at hand
>is, did the person using the name Willow have SRS as a result of being
>sodomized in a Thailand prison? Notice how this person avoids that
>issue, and tries to misdirect the discussion?

If Willow is in denial of such a link to herself then she would be
incapable of recognizing it... and you shouldn;t expect her to address
it.

Paulinev01

unread,
Apr 9, 2003, 3:49:05 PM4/9/03
to
>Proof? What sillies?
>
>Willow
>

As I said if it was fiction it was good, if it is real very horrable.

I had the impression you were american.

As far as bribing a judge in Thialand, well that is how they make thier money.
unfortunate but very true.

When I was there the price you mentioned was about 800 baht.

Why did it take 2 years to get out. could you not have found a way out even
without a passport?

Bribing being a national passtime I would think it might have been easy.
No I am not making fun about bribing, that is their way.

>I might demand proof of your stores as
>well, if they were of interest in any way.
>

as you say if they were of interest. and you would be welcome to check any of
them out. One problem about using a reall name and addy around here is nothing
is private.

I do not have a nexis or lexis account, but if you send the links I would be
interested in reading about the information. Really.


Why were you arrested in the first place? What were the charges? and the two
you were their to meet, why. Couriosity is hell.

P /B

Diane

unread,
Apr 9, 2003, 4:09:26 PM4/9/03
to
On 09 Apr 2003 19:49:05 GMT, pauli...@cs.com (Paulinev01) wrote:

>Why did it take 2 years to get out. could you not have found a way out even
>without a passport?

That's actually an excellent question Pauline!
It would seem that a trip to the Canadian embassy would get one a new
passport within a short period of time.

Willow?? Any comments?

Diane

unread,
Apr 9, 2003, 4:50:35 PM4/9/03
to
On Wed, 09 Apr 2003 15:12:40 -0400, L D Blake <ldb...@sympatico.ca>
wrote:

>>Another round of weaving, ducking, and dodging. The question at hand


>>is, did the person using the name Willow have SRS as a result of being
>>sodomized in a Thailand prison?
>

>Actually, the REAL question is:
>What makes you think it's any of your goddamned business?

Ummm.... could it be the SCREENPLAY that she's writing about it?

Amanda Angelika

unread,
Apr 9, 2003, 5:05:50 PM4/9/03
to
"Diane" <diane...@phhhhhffft.org> wrote in message
news:v98shk9...@news.supernews.com...


LOL Yes I think that sort of sizes that up ;)

It is strange how Willow claims to be and out and proud TS a famous Lawer and TV
host/ess who was at the centre of an international incident who is a personal friend
of her Prime Minister, but is unwilling to show any documentary evidence to this
effect at all or even give a former name. This is bound to lead one to the conclusion
that there is no documentary evidence in existence because a large proportion of this
stuff is fictional and extremely far fetched.

Diane

unread,
Apr 9, 2003, 5:11:38 PM4/9/03
to
On Wed, 9 Apr 2003 22:05:50 +0100, "Amanda Angelika"
<manic...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>It is strange how Willow claims to be and out and proud TS a famous Lawer and TV
>host/ess who was at the centre of an international incident who is a personal friend
>of her Prime Minister, but is unwilling to show any documentary evidence to this
>effect at all or even give a former name

You know, I'm sure there's a grain of truth to most everything she
says. I am just very wary of people who appear to be, imho, so
obviously self-promoting themselves. Such behavior makes me cautious
about anything that comes my way from such people.

I'm also concerned abut the her linking herself with Lyle - a person
is known by the company that they keep and if one chooses to take the
company of a Usenet kook and troll.... well then....

Diane

unread,
Apr 9, 2003, 5:16:30 PM4/9/03
to
On Wed, 09 Apr 2003 17:06:00 -0400, L D Blake <ldb...@sympatico.ca>
wrote:

>


>>>Actually, the REAL question is:
>>>What makes you think it's any of your goddamned business?
>>
>>Ummm.... could it be the SCREENPLAY that she's writing about it?
>

>And exactly how is THAT any of your business?

You mean before or after I spend my 8 bucks to see the movie?
Or are you merely suggesting I should read the book Lyle?

;)

Amanda Angelika

unread,
Apr 9, 2003, 5:49:08 PM4/9/03
to

"Diane" <diane...@phhhhhffft.org> wrote in message

news:v99354q...@news.supernews.com...

Yes well I suppose Willow will get the infamous LB FO at some point and be forever
deemed to be weak-minded, it does seem to happen to most people eventually. ;)

Diane

unread,
Apr 9, 2003, 5:43:39 PM4/9/03
to
On Wed, 9 Apr 2003 22:49:08 +0100, "Amanda Angelika"
<manic...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Yes well I suppose Willow will get the infamous LB FO at some point and be forever
>deemed to be weak-minded, it does seem to happen to most people eventually. ;)

Lyle is kinda like a trannie time-cube guy. If you don't believe his
thoeries you are forever doomed to be stupid and evil.

Amanda Angelika

unread,
Apr 9, 2003, 6:19:49 PM4/9/03
to

"Diane" <diane...@phhhhhffft.org> wrote in message

news:v995161...@news.supernews.com...

Yes Laura does act like that unfortunately. I don't dislike Laura though. I try to
get on with everyone really even if this doesn't always work.

Jennifer Usher

unread,
Apr 9, 2003, 6:44:08 PM4/9/03
to
"Willow Arune" <twofru...@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:<uLWka.85655$vs.78...@news3.calgary.shaw.ca>...

Paula asked if there was proof that you had chose to have surgery
because of being raped. Why are you trying to dodge that issue?

Jennifer Usher

Jennifer Usher

unread,
Apr 9, 2003, 6:45:23 PM4/9/03
to
"Willow Arune" <twofru...@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:<KSZka.86288$vs.79...@news3.calgary.shaw.ca>...

> I am puzzled why this group even exists. This is supposed to represent
> "support"? for whom??? At best, it is a bad sit-com for JU and DM - and a
> few others I suppose.

Then why don't you tuck Lyle up under your arm and leave?

Jennifer Usher

Jennifer Usher

unread,
Apr 9, 2003, 6:48:54 PM4/9/03
to
"Willow Arune" <twofru...@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:<LSWka.682781$Yo4.57...@news1.calgary.shaw.ca>...

> I am dismayed and disquisted at the posts regarding my Thai experience. I
> have replied to those posted that seemed to contain more than insults, but


> most certainly any other victim will never come forward in this group to
> seek assistance after this effort by Jennifer Usher and Diane. Demanding
> proof is right off the wall - the story was covered nationally for over two
> years.

Please cut the self-pity and poor victim crap. No one has even
questioned that you were raped. The ONLY issue that Diane, and
myself, have raised is how that led to your transition. You keep
trying smoke and mirrors to hide from this issue. You are not really
fooling anyone.

> As to the bad taste in using the wrong pronouns, I thought that stupid game
> ceased long ago - and it has in most civil TS groups. Even stupider when
> the person making the comment still has a penis and yet calls herself a
> woman. Bah! Humbug! the group of you are loathsome creatures that seem to
> delight in slinking about in the mud... You are so distorted you cannot
> recognize a person who honours her reputation and is credited for that.

It is not a game. I see you as a man, and I refer to you as a man.
Now, again, if we are so bad, leave. Stay, and you only make your
words seem even sillier.

Jennifer Usher

Jennifer Usher

unread,
Apr 9, 2003, 6:51:06 PM4/9/03
to
Diane <diane...@phhhhhffft.org> wrote in message news:<v98r8nk...@news.supernews.com>...

> You continually insist on misinterpreting what I am saying. By the
> numbers (once again)....
>
> 1. I do not now nor ever have demanded proof of your experience. I
> take you at your word that rape occurred while you were a man in a
> men's prison in Thailand.

Nor have I.

> 2. My only point of contention is your pretending to be victimized by
> this discussion while AT THE SAME TIME publicizing your rape
> experience in various newspapers and even attempting to write a
> screenplay about it.

A very interesting contradiction, is it not?

> 3. You can not have it both ways. You can not be indignant about some
> alleged invasion of your privacy about an incident while at the same
> time putting the incident up for sale on the big screen.

Simple Diane, he is trying to avoid questions about his rather strange
assertion that he transitioned and had surgery BECAUSE he was raped.
I could not help but notice that NOTHING was mentioned in the article
about have those feelings previous to the rape.

Jennifer Usher

Jennifer Usher

unread,
Apr 9, 2003, 7:03:42 PM4/9/03
to
Diane <diane...@phhhhhffft.org> wrote in message news:<v98qvee...@news.supernews.com>...

> I think that people are naturally concerned with the link between your
> experience and the decision to get SRS thereafter. The newspaper
> article that you quoted indicated that your decision to transition
> occurred because of your rape experience while still in jail.

Yes, it certainly does.

> This naturally sets of some red flags to most post-ops who's personal
> experience and the experience of all they have met thus far has been
> that TSs feel that they need to change gender from a very early age.

I don't think one has to be post-op to see the red flags.

> I would ask you if you had been an active crossdresser from an early
> age - my assumption is that you had been. I gave known
> crossdressers who decided to go full time to varying degrees later on
> in life - late fifties to sixties - as you have done. I know of
> possibly only one other TS who choose to wait such a long time - most
> of us are unable to survive that long.

Good question. A desire for SRS sometimes arises following a severe
emotional trauma such as the death of a spouse, divorce, loss of job,
etc. A *competent* therapist will recognize this and steer the
patient away from a potentially tragic mistake.

> So I put together your extremely late transition along with your
> obvious identification with non-TS individuals, transgendered people
> and drag queens (Lyle, Jenice, etc) and wonder if you are one of
> those individuals who are primarily a crossdresser and then decided to
> go further in their fifties. I don't know one way or another of
> course but I do know that your experience (lack of prior strong need
> to change physical sex, extremely late transition, etc) is much
> different from the other TSs that I have encountered.

Yes, and it raises questions that this person seems very reluctant to
answer.

Jennifer Usher

Willow Arune

unread,
Apr 9, 2003, 9:58:34 PM4/9/03
to
Amanda,

Anyone who released any information to this nasty group would be crazy - nor
have I seen and such proof from others here, including you.

Nonsense. And you should know it - if you do not, you are indeed off the
edge...

Willow


kc

unread,
Apr 9, 2003, 10:12:18 PM4/9/03
to
"Jennifer Usher" <jenni...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:93fa4d2a.03040...@posting.google.com...

> It is not a game. I see you as a man, and I refer to you as a man.
> Now, again, if we are so bad, leave. Stay, and you only make your
> words seem even sillier.
>
> Jennifer Usher

I don't know, Jenn. From where I am sitting it isn't Willow that seems
silly.

Willow Arune

unread,
Apr 9, 2003, 10:14:10 PM4/9/03
to
The Edmonton Sun
Copyright (c) 1999, Sun Media Corporation

EX-LOCAL MAN SEEKS SEX CHANGE, CITING WEEKS OF THAI
JAIL TORTURE

Sunday, September 26, 1999
Tag: 9909261017
Edition: Final
Section: News
Length: 56 lines
Page: 12
BY IAN MCDOUGALL, EDMONTON SUN

An Edmonton-born man who endured repeated sexual abuse and torture in a Thai
prison has made it back to Canada - and is
now living as a woman.

Willow Cheryle Arune, formerly Will Orobko, survived six weeks in a crowded
Thailand jail on trumped-up fraud charges
and is trying to rebuild her life living in Kelowna, B.C.

Arune, 52, then a man, went to Thailand on business in February 1995. Thai
authorities arrested him after bank officials in
Bangkok accused him of forging a bank certificate worth $50 million.

With the help of a private investigator it was revealed that the fraud was
committed a month before Arune arrived in Thailand.
The real culprits later confessed to officials in the Philippines.

Arune's return to Calgary on Nov. 20, 1996, is still fresh in her mind. She
came back only after friends here raised enough
money to bail her out of jail and then out of the Asian country.

"It was -20 C when I got into Calgary. I loved it. I was rolling in a
snowbank," she said.

But the nightmare of what had happened in Thailand still fills Arune's mind.
Guards at the prison repeatedly raped and
assaulted the blond and blue-eyed Arune for five weeks.

"I became their afternoon's entertainment," she said.

Arune's decision to become a woman was made back in Canada after several
sessions with a psychologist. Although she
doesn't chalk the decision up solely to the torture, she admits it played a
major role.

"It did in the sense that it totally destroyed my sense of being," she said.
"I didn't know who I was when I got out."

The abuse was so intolerable she decided to kill herself while still in
prison, but her attempt was unsuccessful.

Just minutes before she was going to try again to end her life the Thai cell
door swung open and she was freed. "Twenty
minutes later and you wouldn't be talking to me," Arune said.

"I came back to Alberta and thought 'Great, now I can relax,' " she said.
"(But) that's when your system collapses."

When she started talking to psychologists about the sex change, they thought
it was post-traumatic stress. But after more
therapy she was convinced the only way she could go on was as a woman.

"When I got back from Thailand there was only one thing that mattered and
that was to be happy," she said. "It took me
another year (to decide). I've lived as a woman for two years now."

She hopes to have an operation that will complete the sex-change process in
Montreal next year.

In the meantime, Willow's story is in the process of being made into a movie
and a National Film Board documentary.

She's currently working as an assistant for a Kelowna inventor.

Illustration:
photo Willow Cheryle Arune after a nightmarish trip to Thailand.


Copyright 1999, The Edmonton Sun Unauthorized reproduction prohibited


Diane

unread,
Apr 9, 2003, 10:13:53 PM4/9/03
to
On Thu, 10 Apr 2003 01:58:34 GMT, "Willow Arune"
<twofru...@shaw.ca> wrote:

>
>Anyone who released any information to this nasty group would be crazy -

>.... And you should know it - if you do not, you are indeed off the
>edge...

Good thing that *you* aren't being nasty to people.....

Do as I say...not as I do.... (again)

Willow Arune

unread,
Apr 9, 2003, 10:16:13 PM4/9/03
to
. BC Christian News . FEBRUARY ISSUE 1999 . VOL. 19 #2 . Formerly "Christian
Info News" .
Willow cuts off the Alpha Program
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - -
By Sylvia Woodyard
Willow Arune, a 52 year old candidate for surgery which will alter her male
organs to those of a woman, attended a wedding at First Baptist on New
Year's eve with caution.
"It was the first time I went [to such an event] 'as Willow.' Normally I say
'no' to church-based invitations." Her friendship with the bride and groom
motivated her to attend. Instead of the coolness and hostility she has
typically experienced in such environments, Willow describes the people she
met as categorically "warm, courteous, friendly and understanding," in spite
of the unmistakable characteristics which clearly identify her as a man "in
transition" (anatomically male but taking hormonal medication and living as
a woman to prepare for the change).
In an age when the church is confronted with the challenge of responding ot
those who are faced with gender identity issues, some recent events at First
Baptist Church in Kelowna could be considered precedential.
Willow, a former lawyer, TV host and entrepreneur turned writer (she is
currently writing her third book), was then invited to attend Alpha at First
Baptist, a program for seekers of the Christian faith. She attended the
orientation session, in spite of her clear understanding of the Christian
faith from theological study and being roommates with someone she describes
as a "fundamentalist Christian." Again, Willow described the experience in
positive terms. "I very much enjoyed the people. [The church] is clearly a
friendly organization."
The welcome she received is apparently characteristic of Kelowna as a whole,
a surprise to Willow because of the town's conservative reputation. "I
expected all sorts of problems," Willow reported to the Kelowna Daily
Courier. "Instead, I found a warmth and kindness. I've found many new
friendships, and some in the most unexpected places."
Considering the rejection she has encountered in Christian contexts, the
significance of her return to the church for the Alpha orientation cannot be
overstated. This fall she was interviewing for a position at a local
business. Willow, who believes she is obliged to disclose her circumstances
in such situations, initiated discussion with the interviewer who is the
wife of a local Christian leader. The interview, Willow says, "rapidly went
downhill," and the conversation soon ended.
Gary Swabey, assistant pastor at First Baptist, says Christians are called
to far more than tolerance. "Jesus commanded us to love. That's always a
battle. [Does] loving a person always [mean] embracing what they're about? I
don't think so."
Willow indicates that she will not continue Alpha, in spite of the welcome
she received and the friends she made at First Baptist. "I've been burnt too
many times." She envies those who have a faith, stating that she'd "like the
comfort" it would bring but feels that God has somehow made himself
inaccessible to her, even in the most dire of circumstances. She says she
will never be able to accept the Christian faith "because of certain things
in her background," as well as the necessary belief in the deity of Jesus
and the Bible as the Word of God.
Discuss this article on our new HYPERLINK


Oh yes, regarding teh earlier Kelwona Articke. That was donwe one or two
months after teh start of my transtition, when I did not pass very well.


Willow Arune

unread,
Apr 9, 2003, 10:20:32 PM4/9/03
to
This was Page One, above the fold, and exclusive. November 24, 1996.
Picked up by several papers after.

FREE AT LAST

By John Gradon, Calgary Herald


The headlong dive into the snowbank is a spontaneous celebration of
freedom - freedom at last.

"For the first time in two years I feel no fear. I feel peace, safety and ,
at last, no fear" he says, brushing off and rejoicing in the -28C
temperature.

It has been 604 days since Will Orobko's hell on Earth began with his arrest
in Bangkok, Thailand, as a suspect in a multimillion-dollar scam - a scam
with which he has steadfastly maintained, he had no involvement.

He says that despite his innocence he suffered brutalization, abuse and
beatings at the hands of prison guards; he planned suicide to end further
victimization; endured hospitalization on a "death ward"; was trapped in
Thailand without passport, money or friends; and all with the torment of
knowing it "was all so unnecessary and unjustified".

He says that despite his innocence he has been forced to suffer a prolonged,
drawn-out trial process which was likely to last a minimum of five years
with only one hearing every four to six weeks.

"I'm convinced certain people just thought the problem would eventually go
away.that I'd die." Orobko says.

His walk in the Banff snow comes less than 36 hours after he was forced to
sweat it out, quite literally, in more than 30 degree temperatures in a
jam-packed Thai deportation centre, not knowing whether authorities would
finally release him to board a plane to "escape" home to Canada or hurl him
back into a jail cell; for another chilling chapter in the nightmare.

"It was as if they wanted me to suffer right to the last," says the
Calgarian, a former lawyer turned author, and self-confessed eccentric.

Even now, he's not sure of his official status p whether he's been
officially deported or whether he's merely back in Canada on bail raised by
friends in Alberta.

"Either way, I've seen the last of Thailand and Thailand's seen the last of
me," he says. "Some people over there may think I'm going back for the next
day in my trial. They can think again. There's no extradition between
Canada and Thailand."

Orobko's ordeal began in the opening weeks of 1995 when, as a former lawyer
with a familiarity born from travelling in the Far East, he was approached
by an Albertian with a proposition.

"I was to be second broker to his first broker in a deal between two
Americans in Bangkok and a Canadian."

"The Americans wanted a loan for $1 million for a quick business deal
involving a private hospital there which was going to make a quick profit.
Nothing illegal," says Orobko.

Orobko had given up law in British Columbia some time before, disillusioned
with a profession that had given him a heart attack in his 30s. He had
become a data processor, wrote and sang folk songs, and had written a book
on commuter cycling in Calgary.

"I'm kind of a belated hippie and I think 'a few weeks in Bangkok? A little
commission to pay off some debts?' Fine. No problem. My experience in law
and computer is what they're interested in."

He says he had to apply for a new passport.

He says the last of a series of meetings with the Americans ended in a
downtown Bangkok boardroom with a local official of the American-based
Citibank leaving the room and returning seconds later with a posse of armed
police.

"He was frothing," says Orobko. "He was screaming about getting us for
fraud and that we would all end up 'rotting in a Thai jail'."

Orobko says "I thought I'd die" when the official emptied one of the
Americans' briefcases on the table and among the papers was a certificate of
deposit in the bank's name.

He claims he knew nothing of the document's existence - it turned out to be
a forgery.

Within hours Orobko, along with the two Americans, was in a packed holding
cell with about 60 other people who had allegedly fallen foul of Thai law.

Things were to get even worse, he says. He spent six weeks of terror in a
Bangkok jail where he says he was subject to brutality and abuse by prison
guards.

On one occasion, he says, he was beaten in a darkened room by three guards
wielding bamboo canes.

Hi is convinced that during his term on jail he had another heart attack.
He was taken to the jail hospital "death ward" where he spent a nightmarish
three weeks.

"Someone died there every night, form malnutrition, lack of treatment or bad
treatment," he says.

"The orderlies stood over me one night, obviously discussing who would get
my shorts, who would get my shirt after I died during the night. Mush to my
surprise, and theirs, I survived the night.

Eventually there was a possibility I would get sent back to the general
prison population, and I decided I couldn't endure that again.

"I managed to save up all kinds of pills they gave us to sedate us, numb us.

"I remembered reading a book about suicide and also managed to get a plastic
bag.

"The idea was that you put the bag over your head after you've taken enough
pills, and by the time the pills really kicked in, you'd be in no state to
get the bag off."

The night of the planned suicide, a friendly orderly told Orobko he knew
what he was planning.

"No tonight. No tonight," he urged the prisoner.

Orobko, for some unknown reason, listened - and the next night was freed on
bail raised by "ex pats" who'd heard of his plight.

He was free in a sense - but with his passport being held by Thai
authorities, no ability to speak the language and penniless, a new form of
imprisonment was just beginning, he says.

"I had no passport, no identity. In a strange, strange land. There was no
way of getting out," he says.

The relative freedom, however, allowed him to contact his Alberta friends by
phone, to make a little money on a law office, to contact the Canadian
Consulate in Bangkok, to send appeals for help and information by fax.

Eventually, he says, especially after a visit by Reform Party leader Preston
Manning and Alberta M.P. Bob Mills, the embassy staff become more concerned
about his predicament, more friendly.

As the months dragged on, with the help of private detectives, Orobko and
the legal firm he worked for on a casual basis began building a picture of
what they say is the truth of the scam.

They say police in Manila, Philippines, have confessions from two people
saying they forged the offending certificate.

They have pointed out that they have Canadian passport office documentation
saying that Orobko did not get a passport until February, 1995 and did not
enter Thailand until March of that year.

The fraud in the charges against Orobko is alleged to have happened in
Thailand between September 1994 and January 1995.

There are signed affidavits from Calgarians who swear Orobko was in Alberta
at the time of the alleged forgeries.

But Orobko says that despite being presented with the new information, the
Thai authorities and New York based Citibank N.A. who instigated the
charges, left him to languish in Thailand and endure the trial process which
he labels "a judicial farce".

As he strolls in the snow he says, "I didn't believe I was on my way home
until I was watching a TV screen on board the plane which showed the
position of the plane.

It wasn't until I say we were in Vietnamese airspace that I believed. And I
cried."

Calgary "Herald"
November 24th, 1996.
Pgs. A1-A5.


Diane

unread,
Apr 9, 2003, 10:24:28 PM4/9/03
to
On Thu, 10 Apr 2003 02:14:10 GMT, "Willow Arune"
<twofru...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>She's currently working as an assistant for a Kelowna inventor.

Actually you're currently permanently disabled and no longer work as a
lawyer or anything else.

So what was the point of your posting the Edmonton news article....
no one is debating the facts as you have already stated them.

kc

unread,
Apr 9, 2003, 10:14:52 PM4/9/03
to
"L D Blake" <ldb...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:51r89vk5eknevo241...@news1.sympatico.ca...

> Well, with rare exception the people here are, quite simply, more trouble
than
> they're worth. Now if they would just STAY here and stop terrorizing the
> crossdressing and transgender groups I'd be perfectly happy to ditch the
whole
> load of 'em.

LOL.... I'll try to remember that the next time you go on a tirade on "SRS
is mutilation" rants.

Diane

unread,
Apr 9, 2003, 10:37:02 PM4/9/03
to
On Thu, 10 Apr 2003 02:20:32 GMT, "Willow Arune"
<twofru...@shaw.ca> wrote:

>This was Page One, above the fold, and exclusive. November 24, 1996.
>Picked up by several papers after.

Right right... we get the point that you had several newspaper
articles written about your experience.

Do you know the difference between being famous and infamous?

Some people asked you to broker a million dollar deal for them in a
foreign country and you had not practiced law for nearly 20 years
according to that article. And you found nothing strange about that.
Okaaaaaayyyyyy ......

Karen A.

unread,
Apr 9, 2003, 11:05:53 PM4/9/03
to
Nicki <x> wrote:

> hat's where I come out, too. For someone so "out and proud", why the
> secrecy? How come not even a picture anywhere to back up the claims of
> being so passable?

And if your life is so good and you are so together, mostly stealth and
never get get read, why are you worried about it one way or the other?

> Contrast: here I am, trying to live a quite stealth
> life at work, but anyone that really cares to can easily find pictures of me
> (http://www.hamiltonlabs.com/biography.htm and
> http://www.hamiltonlabs.com/FacialSurgery.htm) and you even get my current
> home address near Seattle if you really want (hint: I have a ham license,
> KD1UJ, so I'm in all the callsign servers.)

Again that's not stealth... being that out and still publicising it -
just not speaking about it at work, I'm not sure even qualifies as
woodworking.

Nothing wrong wth what you are doing, but from all i know of you i doubt
you really want to be stealth ... you get too much out of the way things
are now...

The point being you should stop throwing stones... people will think
more of you if you stop being so judgemental of people who are not
attacking you ... i know i would...

- karen

Diane

unread,
Apr 9, 2003, 11:05:32 PM4/9/03
to
On Thu, 10 Apr 2003 02:20:32 GMT, "Willow Arune"
<twofru...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>FREE AT LAST

I see my accusations of self-promotions were completely unjustified.

Paulinev01

unread,
Apr 9, 2003, 11:11:03 PM4/9/03