Extremely Swollen Turbinates & Chest Heaviness
sunkisse...@yahoo.com
I've been suffering from swollen turbinates for a couple of years now,
with the left one being the worst. I was wondering if anyone here
suffered from difficulty breathing as well as chest heaviness(left
side) from time to time?
My ENT wants to do surgery, but I've heard that surgery can sometimes
make matters worse. I also have occasional wheezing in my larynx that
is not asthma. If you can relate, please post a reply!
Thanks
Steven L.
It can be caused by thick post nasal drip getting down into your lower
respiratory tract, causing laryngitis or tracheitis. I had those same
breathing and chest heaviness problems till I had sinus surgery.
You may have more wrong with your upper respiratory tract than just
swollen turbinates. You may have an infected sinus too. I suggest you
take your CT scan films to another ENT for a second opinion.
Have you had a chest X-ray too?
--
Steven L.
Email: sdli...@earthlinkNOSPAM.net
Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.
truehawk
Babe:
Your are right and Susan and Steve are right.
Call your ENT and have him tell you EXACTLY what kind of surgery he
proposes.
Your turbinates are natural scroll-work in your sinuses that control
the airflow and allow a pressure pulse to develop
that aids your absorption of oxygen. You are able to extract 50% more
oxygen when you breath through your nose because
of the shape of these structures, so cutting them out is a very bad
idea. However they can be covered with infected crud, or
worse and basically need to be cleaned off, by scraping or using RF.
If you can find someone that does RF, this seems to have fewer
complications, but as Susan's experience shows, careful surgery that
cleans of the trubinate but spares the cartilage structure can be
successful too.
sunkisse...@yahoo.com
> x-no-archive: yes
>
>
>
> truehawk wrote:
> > Babe:
> > Your are right and Susan and Steve are right.
> > Call your ENT and have him tell you EXACTLY what kind of surgery he
> > proposes.
> > Your turbinates are natural scroll-work in your sinuses that control
> > the airflow and allow a pressure pulse to develop
> > that aids your absorption of oxygen. You are able to extract 50% more
> > oxygen when you breath through your nose because
> > of the shape of these structures, so cutting them out is a very bad
> > idea. However they can be covered with infected crud, or
> > worse and basically need to be cleaned off, by scraping or using RF.
> > If you can find someone that does RF, this seems to have fewer
> > complications, but as Susan's experience shows, careful surgery that
> > cleans of the trubinate but spares the cartilage structure can be
> > successful too.
>
> your turbinates for air conditioning."
>
> Susan
Thank you for your replies Susan, Steven, and truehawk. Right now my
ENT has me doing nasal washes 2x's a day, plus 2 squirts in each
nostril of Rhinocort once a day. He said that my sinuses look better,
but I'm starting to have the occasional headache, and I'm not sure if
it's from an infection brewing or from the Rhinocort.
I also forgot to mention that I suffer from a moderate to severe case
of LPR(Laryngopharyngeal Reflux). Sometimes I get a lot of redness,
swelling, and irritation in my throat from that; but during my last
ENT visit in August, he told me that the redness and swelling had all
but gone away, yet I still have this feeling of inflammation in my
throat which causes me to feel short of breath.
I'm been to 4 different ENT's so far, and they all have discussed the
future possibility of surgery. I think one said something about a
laser resurfacing, or burning the turbinate to allow it to re-heal or
something similar. Anyway, thank you all for you help!
sunkisse...@yahoo.com
> Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.
Hi Steven,
Yes, I've had many chest X-rays, CT Scans and Pulmonary function test;
everything checked out fine. They also looked into my throat with a
laryngoscope, and told me that although initially my throat was very
swollen, things appear to be almost back to normal with no signs of
stenosis.
sunkisse...@yahoo.com
> Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.
Hi Steven,
truehawk
Babe:
I hate to even suggest this, but I too have had extreme esophageal
symptoms and normal swallowing studies and
CAT scans of my head indicating god know what, choking, nausea and
everything else.
Just for grins, you might try to get a doc, any doc, a osteopath, a
nutripath, anyone with a prescription pad
to write an order to send material from your sinuses to a lab where it
can be evaluated for worms, just to rule it out.
I was looked at by a series of internists and probably 6 ENTs, and not
one of them EVER considered a tapeworm infection.
But I gotta a tiny type of tapeworm. It is apparently called
echinococcosis. I don't know which species, there seem to be a bunch.
If one has the tiny tapeworms, and apparently there are species that
may be transmitted by fleas or maybe even mosquitoes.
from the body-wide symptoms, they are not just in one's sinuses, in
fact the lit does not even mention the sinuses, and it could be that
worm symptoms are not well documented because direct examination of
material from one's sinuses is specifically discouraged by ENT
practice guidelines. The entire infectious disease diagnostic scheme
is based on cultures, which will show the bacteria and fungus that the
worm rolls with (if you insist on a fungus culture), but not the worm.
The only time now that the worms are detected now is when they cause a
seizure or form cysts that show up on x-ray, but that may not be the
usual way they live in the human body.
Anyway, I hypotheses that it is possible that even when the sinuses
are cleaned out, if one has the worm, the worms will return from other
locations to the sinuses eventually, because the sinuses are moist,
poorly defended, and the worm equivalent of prime real estate, on the
bus line and close to shops.
Steven L.
Perhaps my experience would be enlightening:
I had a negative CT scan of my sinuses. And two different ENTs looked
at it and both swore I had no sinus disease.
But a third ENT knew better. He knew that sinus CT scans have about a
5% chance of false negatives (failing to detect sinus disease). And so
we agreed to operate. And sure enough, during the surgery, he found
definite evidence of sinus disease in my sinuses that the CT scan had
missed.
The only way to be sure is to push an endoscope all the way into your
sinuses and view them from the inside. But you have to be under general
anesthetic for that. That's why exploratory surgery may be the only
option for you, as it was for me.
> I also forgot to mention that I suffer from a moderate to severe case
> of LPR(Laryngopharyngeal Reflux). Sometimes I get a lot of redness,
> swelling, and irritation in my throat from that; but during my last
> ENT visit in August, he told me that the redness and swelling had all
> but gone away, yet I still have this feeling of inflammation in my
> throat which causes me to feel short of breath.
Three more points before you depart:
1. There is some evidence that gastroesophageal reflux (GERD), if it's
severe, can even cause sinusitis as well as bad laryngitis. That's
because when you lie down, acidic stomach contents can be refluxed all
the way up into your nasopharynx--or at least the fumes from your
stomach can be. In any case, it's important to get your GERD under
control. Long-term GERD increases your risk of esophageal cancer, which
is very serious.
If you haven't already, see a gastroenterologist and get an endoscopy of
your upper gastrointestinal tract. If medication has failed to control
your GERD, then you may have an anatomical problem--a weak esophageal
sphincter--which may need treatment. (My lower esophageal sphincter is
permanently very weak, a genetic birth defect.) Treating your GERD
successfully may even help your sinus problems.
In any case, in the meantime, try this: Do you eat a small breakfast in
the morning and a hearty dinner in the evening? Try INTERCHANGING those
meals. Eat a large, hearty breakfast (e.g., steak and eggs) in the
morning, and eat a small, light dinner (e.g., bagel and some fruit) in
the evening. You need the fuel in the morning to start the day anyway;
and a light dinner in the evening is much less likely to kick off GERD
at night.
2. As Susan indicated, I'm much more of a fan of SINUS surgery than I
am of TURBINATE surgery. If you have a small pocket of infection in one
of your sinuses, cleaning it out will be worthwhile. Turbinate
reduction, on the other hand, may be too risky for any benefits you'll
get. It can lead to "Empty Nose Syndrome," in which your upper
respiratory tract becomes chronically dry and inflamed due to removing
the turbinates which moisten the air. Kind of like running your air
conditioner with the filter removed. And that can't be repaired
surgically--you'll be permanently miserable.
3. Where do you live? Perhaps Susan or I can recommend a good ENT (or
ENT hospital department) in your area.
--
Steven L.
Email: sdli...@earthlinkNOSPAM.net
sunkisse...@yahoo.com
Worms???? I must say, that the possibility has not crossed my mind and
I will definitely look into that! Though I hope to God it isn't the
problem.
sunkisse...@yahoo.com
Ah! I have a tendency to eat light for breakfast and heavy at night,
especially before bed. I quite often lie down after dinner, which I've
heard is NOT good for GERD, so I'm working at trying to change that
habit. It's hard because most often I'm busy and catch a meal until
late in the evening.
During the next appointment with my ENT I'm going to ask him about the
Endoscope, and see what he says. Thanks for that suggestion!
i know for certain that I have a weak lower esophageal sphincter,
because during two separate Upper G.I.'s, the doctor discovered that
the barium(as well as the pill you have to swallow) get's stuck there.
I have to stand up, move around, and swallow copious amounts of fluids
to get it to move out of my esophagus and into my stomach.
I'm located in Irving, Texas; right outside of Dallas. My ENT is
located at U.T. Southwestern Hospital.
You guys/girls are a WEALTH of information, thanks for your help! It
is greatly appreciated!
sunkisse...@yahoo.com
> > Three more points before you depart:
>
> > 1. There is some evidence that gastroesophageal reflux (GERD), if it's
> > severe, can even cause sinusitis as well as bad laryngitis. That's
> > because when you lie down, acidic stomach contents can be refluxed all
> > the way up into your nasopharynx--or at least the fumes from your
> > stomach can be. In any case, it's important to get your GERD under
> > control. Long-term GERD increases your risk of esophageal cancer, which
> > is very serious.
>
> cancer? In the case of hyperinsulinemia from high carb consumption, for
> example and the usual disappearance of GERD (and IBS) reported by so
> many folks as soon as they switch to low carb diets, for example. In my
> own case, my GERD was cured by antibiotics, though perhaps indirectly,
> by lowering infection, thereby lowering endogenous steroid over
> production, thereby no more steroid excess inflaming my stomach? Such a
> scenario would also explain the immune suppression that can lead to
> chronic sinusitis.
>
>
>
> > If you haven't already, see a gastroenterologist and get an endoscopy of
> > your upper gastrointestinal tract. If medication has failed to control
> > your GERD, then you may have an anatomical problem--a weak esophageal
> > sphincter--which may need treatment. (My lower esophageal sphincter is
> > permanently very weak, a genetic birth defect.) Treating your GERD
> > successfully may even help your sinus problems.
>
> simple attempts at, say, dietary changes that might work, and that will
> be evident very quickly, first.
>
>
>
> > In any case, in the meantime, try this: Do you eat a small breakfast in
> > the morning and a hearty dinner in the evening? Try INTERCHANGING those
> > meals. Eat a large, hearty breakfast (e.g., steak and eggs) in the
> > morning, and eat a small, light dinner (e.g., bagel and some fruit) in
> > the evening. You need the fuel in the morning to start the day anyway;
> > and a light dinner in the evening is much less likely to kick off GERD
> > at night.
>
> meal as far as your pancreas, kidneys and nerves are concerned. Small,
> not light meals, are really helpful. A starch and sugar meal just
> inhibits growth hormone secretion, which is bad, and is likely to lead
> to elevated glucose, which is worse. You have all the energry you need
> for the day without force feeding sugar calories; cortisol will raise
> morning glucose.
>
> For my own extremely severe GERD, now gone for many years after 8 years
> of horrid symptoms, I found smaller meals and not reclining for at least
> an hour and a half to be the most helpful. I managed to avoid
> esophagitis this way even on high dose docycycline. Only time I ever
> get even a teensy bit acid stomach now is if my cortisol is elevated.
>
>
>
> > 2. As Susan indicated, I'm much more of a fan of SINUS surgery than I
> > am of TURBINATE surgery. If you have a small pocket of infection in one
> > of your sinuses, cleaning it out will be worthwhile. Turbinate
> > reduction, on the other hand, may be too risky for any benefits you'll
> > get. It can lead to "Empty Nose Syndrome," in which your upper
> > respiratory tract becomes chronically dry and inflamed due to removing
> > the turbinates which moisten the air. Kind of like running your air
> > conditioner with the filter removed. And that can't be repaired
> > surgically--you'll be permanently miserable.
>
> those who'd had the procedure.
>
>
>
> > 3. Where do you live? Perhaps Susan or I can recommend a good ENT (or
> > ENT hospital department) in your area.
>
> write home about!
>
> Susan
I'm going to try these suggestions. I noticed my own GERD got worse
after taking large amounts of antibiotics for gallbladder problems,
and recurrent sinus infections with in the past couple of years. I
also stopped taking Reglan(because of side-effects) which helped
tremendously to control Acid Reflux.
I was hospitalized last year with laryngitis, pharyngitis, and
esophagitis all because of LPR! Placed on antibiotics, and double
doses of PPI's which has now been reduced back down to one per day.
truehawk
Babe:
Do you have contact with, or have had contact with wildlife, livestock
and dogs?
http://familydoctor.org/online/famdocen/home/common/infections/common/parasitic/749.html
Also does anyone in your area do RF ablation of the sinuses?
Go to pubmed.gov, search and you will find that the RF procedure has
better outcomes and
patients experience fewer secondary infections than ordinary surgery
but
it is still considered "experimental" by some insurance companies.
truehawk
Steven;
I read the paper that Susan bought on the specificity(false positive)
and sensitivity(false negatives) of the CT scan for detection of
sinusitis.
If I remember correctly BOTH HOVERED AROUND 50%. A CT scan can show if
one has some sort of frank obstruction to the passage of air through
the sinuses, but beyond that, they show no better predictive value
than a coin toss.
After an injury many years ago I had a series of x-rays done by an
osteopath which were a work of art in their detail of soft tissue and
clarity. The two CT scans that I have had do not compare at all in
quality, and the others that I have seen are the same or worse. I have
read thousands of industral x-rays over the years and have seen six or
seven CT scans, mine, those here, and others on the net. They look
overexposed. The voltage they use for the human CT scans is higher
than I would use if I were trying to image detail in layers of rubber
(soft tissue).
Then there is the matter of interrupting the x-ray, which requires
that the interrupter have a knowledge of the surgical findings of a
given x-ray
presentation. For me it involved making the x-ray and then cutting up
the speciman to find the defect, and a book, an atlas of defects and
their corresponding x-rays, given a current, voltage, geometry,
material and working distance.
There would seem to be a preticular problem getting the knowns.
Getting the knowns to interpret sinus x-rays would involve the x-ray
and immediate dissecting of a number of freshly dead heads before
there were changes in the condition of the sinus mucosa to generate
the atlas. Did they do that? I don't know, but I don't think so.
The good ENTs accumulate enough experience over time, but since the
ENTs, for 18 of the last 20 years have attributed almost all sinus
problems to allergy and or complications of a deviated septum, and not
an infectious disease problem, it is not clear to me that they
recognize non-calcified markers on CT scans that would indicate
infection, when they did not think infection existed, and in fact the
first histology samples from sinus surgery that were inspected for
biofilm infection were those that Sanderson did in 2006. So I would
say that the atlas that would allow them to identify infections on the
cat scan is probably at the stage that it is in someone's proposal for
funding to the NIH about now. Still on the drawing board as it
were.
Steven L.
>> In any case, in the meantime, try this: Do you eat a small breakfast
>> in the morning and a hearty dinner in the evening? Try INTERCHANGING
>> those meals. Eat a large, hearty breakfast (e.g., steak and eggs) in
>> the morning, and eat a small, light dinner (e.g., bagel and some
>> fruit) in the evening. You need the fuel in the morning to start the
>> day anyway; and a light dinner in the evening is much less likely to
>> kick off GERD at night.
>
> Gosh, Steven, a bagel and juice is a terrible idea. It's pure sugar
> meal as far as your pancreas, kidneys and nerves are concerned.
That's the point.
The sugar or carb hit will wear off quickly, after which you'll feel
quite drowsy.
A protein-rich and fat-rich dinner is what keep you energized and awake
at night.
>> 2. As Susan indicated, I'm much more of a fan of SINUS surgery than I
>> am of TURBINATE surgery. If you have a small pocket of infection in
>> one of your sinuses, cleaning it out will be worthwhile. Turbinate
>> reduction, on the other hand, may be too risky for any benefits you'll
>> get. It can lead to "Empty Nose Syndrome," in which your upper
>> respiratory tract becomes chronically dry and inflamed due to removing
>> the turbinates which moisten the air. Kind of like running your air
>> conditioner with the filter removed. And that can't be repaired
>> surgically--you'll be permanently miserable.
>
> Absolutely, and we've heard those tales of woe here in the past from
> those who'd had the procedure.
>
>>
>> 3. Where do you live? Perhaps Susan or I can recommend a good ENT
>> (or ENT hospital department) in your area.
>
> I live in metro NY, and it took over a decade to find ONE single ENT to
> write home about!
You never considered a visit to Dr. Tichenor?
Steven L.
Well, there you go. While you're sleeping, all those foods mixed with
hydrochloric acid secreted by your stomach are being aspirated all the
way up into your nasopharynx. The same thing that can cause LPR can
also cause chronic rhinitis and sinusitis.
(I'm sure you realize that shooting hydrochloric acid into your sinuses
isn't good for them.)
>
> During the next appointment with my ENT I'm going to ask him about the
> Endoscope, and see what he says. Thanks for that suggestion!
>
> i know for certain that I have a weak lower esophageal sphincter,
> because during two separate Upper G.I.'s, the doctor discovered that
> the barium(as well as the pill you have to swallow) get's stuck there.
> I have to stand up, move around, and swallow copious amounts of fluids
> to get it to move out of my esophagus and into my stomach.
My own ENT has discovered that controlling GERD in his patients often
leads to permanent control of their chronic sinusitis.
*BUT* he has discovered that it's NOT just the stomach acid that
refluxes upward to cause sinusitis; it's all the other stomach contents.
(Suppose you eat a spicy meal, or a salad made with oil and vinegar,
and then reflux it. You're basically shooting all those spices and
vinegar directly into your sinuses. No wonder they get inflamed.)
That means that neutralizing gastric juices isn't enough. The physical
regurgitation has to be brought under control; hence my suggestion about
eating a very tiny dinner.
Now in my case, that's difficult. A GI endoscopy revealed that I am
*missing* one of the two esophageal sphincters--a congenital birth defect.
--
Steven L.
Email: sdli...@earthlinkNOSPAM.net
Steven L.
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> Steven L. wrote:
>
>> quite drowsy.
>>
>> A protein-rich and fat-rich dinner is what keep you energized and
>> awake at night.
>
> kidney, nerve and retina damage. It happens any time of day with that
> kind of meal, even when you're supposed to be energetic and alert. It
> causes pancreatic stress leading to diabetes and its progression.>
I meant all other things being equal.
No, the drowsiness is NOT caused by the protein and fat in the meal.
The myth that it's caused by tryptophan has been refuted by careful
study. It's simply because it's a harder type of meal to digest (your
mouth enzymes begin to break down carbohydrates immediately), and the
effort it takes your stomach to work on it tires you out.
But once it's gotten into your intestines, the protein and fat will
provide long-term energy.
Thom
Watch it when they talk about removing turbinates. I had two(2)
removed, because doctor felt it would keep area clean, and allow
better drainage. The end result was it left open to more infection. I
went to Cleveland Clinic. They went up my right nasal cavity with
endoscope--- they carried on that I should never have allowed
turbinates to be removed. They told me all they could do, was be more
aggressive with infections--- but what was done, was done. They told
me it was too bad.
Steven L.
Yep.
Turbinate reduction is just too risky, period.
fred
There is such a thing called "Empty Nose Syndrome" which has a lot of
symptoms - all that make you sick. it is on google.