Breath-Ease, Benzalkonium and getting off Afrin
Ron
over and over to use Nasalcrom and saline. I've always thought it didn't work and that it made matters worse. Whenever I would say
this to the doctors they would first look at me with this blank stare then proceed to give me a bunch of medical mumbo jumbo telling
it me just couldn't be that way. Then they totally ignore what I just told them and tell me to use more saline and Nasalcrom. I also
have Rhinocort by the way which I do think is helpful. Now I feel vindicated to discover that the Benzalkonium preservatives in this
stuff actually do make things worse. A short time after using either the saline and/or Nasalcrom I'd be so stuffed I couldn't breath
at all. This would send me right back to the Afrin. I am stuck on Afrin. If I don't use Afrin at night my sinuses become completely
blocked and I have nightmares about being strangled or choked or suffocated. I wake up coughing and gasping for air. I snort and
snore so much from trying to breath that I wake myself up and get terrible sore throats. The doctors ignore this too and just say
"well don't use Afrin, it makes it worse". No doubt it makes it worse but I can't go for several weeks without sleep while it wears
off. I do have to work. I really don't want to go back to the doctor and be ignored again either. But I will go and force the issue
only if there's no other choice. Do you think Breath-Ease, irrigation and Rhinocort will be sufficient to break the Afrin and clear
things up? I know someone will say go to a different doctor. But I am tired of going to doctors and being ignored. I've been to
several now and every one is the same. I have no reason to believe that yet another doctor will be any different. I just don't have
time to go through every ENT in the insurance company provider list hoping to find one that actually listens to their patients.
Don Brady
>Do you think Breath-Ease, irrigation and Rhinocort will be sufficient to break the Afrin and clear
>things up? I know someone will say go to a different doctor. But I am tired of going to doctors and being ignored. I've been to
>several now and every one is the same. I have no reason to believe that yet another doctor will be any different. I just don't have
>time to go through every ENT in the insurance company provider list hoping to find one that actually listens to their patients.
I believe some here have said that either the nasal steroid (eg Rhinocort), or
if that does not work a short course of oral steroids, may be needed to break
the Afrin rebound effect. I'm sure they will follow-up. Really thee should
be no problem with a short course of oral steriod (prednisone) if needed.
ENTconsult
benzalkonium effect out.
If not clear of Afrin then, try Benadry 50 mg at night. If still not working ,
ask your doctor about a short course of Prednisoe with an antibiotic.
Best,
Murray Grossan, M.D.
http://www.ent-consult.com
Ron
be a better saline. My allergist and ENT have told me over and over to use
Nasalcrom and saline. I've always thought it didn't work and that it made
matters worse. Whenever I would say this to the doctors they would first
look at me with this blank stare then proceed to give me a bunch of medical
mumbo jumbo telling it me just couldn't be that way. Then they totally
ignore what I just told them and tell me to use more saline and Nasalcrom. I
also have Rhinocort by the way which I do think is helpful. Now I feel
vindicated to discover that the Benzalkonium preservatives in this stuff
actually do make things worse. A short time after using either the saline
and/or Nasalcrom I'd be so stuffed I couldn't breath at all. This would send
me right back to the Afrin. I am stuck on Afrin. If I don't use Afrin at
night my sinuses become completely blocked and I have nightmares about being
strangled or choked or suffocated. I wake up coughing and gasping for air. I
snort and snore so much from trying to breath that I wake myself up and get
terrible sore throats. The doctors ignore this too and just say "well don't
use Afrin, it makes it worse". No doubt it makes it worse but I can't go for
several weeks without sleep while it wears off. I do have to work. I really
don't want to go back to the doctor and be ignored again either. But I will
Riley Kirby
days and then when that one nostril is better stop it altogether. The
nostril you have been putting the Afrin is will close up but the other one
should be mostly open after going cold turkey with it. I've been there and
it seems like you can't do without the Afrin, but you can in a relatively
short time. Keep irrigating too which should help some. Decongestants like
Sudafed help too but cause interruption in sleep for some
people...especially if taken too close to bed time.
Riley Kirby
Steven D. Litvintchouk
>
> A short time after using either the saline and/or Nasalcrom I'd be so stuffed I couldn't breath
> at all. This would send me right back to the Afrin. I am stuck on Afrin. If I don't use Afrin at night my sinuses become > completely
> blocked and I have nightmares about being strangled or choked or suffocated. I wake up coughing and gasping for air. I > snort and
> snore so much from trying to breath that I wake myself up and get terrible sore throats. The doctors ignore this too and > just say
> "well don't use Afrin, it makes it worse". No doubt it makes it worse but I can't go for several weeks without sleep while > it wears
> off. I do have to work.
I got hooked on Afrin myself some years ago--and had to break my
addiction.
The Rhinocort should reduce the swelling in your nose to the point that
you can stop the Afrin. If not, then you should ask your doctor for a
short burst of oral steroids (prednisone).
But I have to warn you that, based on my own experience, even with this
medication, the first 48 hours after stopping the Afrin are going to be
SHEER HELL. I suggest you take a few days sick time from your job.
Because you will not be able to sleep. (I was actually crying from the
pain at one point late at night.)
Ice packs applied directly to your face may relieve the swelling and
pain that you WILL experience.
Afrin is ADDICTIVE. And like heroin or cocaine or alcohol, breaking the
addiction is ROUGH. You just have to go thru it.
If you have a spouse or Significant Other, they can give you moral
support thru the rough nights It helps to have someone you trust give
you a hug or hold your hand.
And we're here for you too. Please post (or even email me directly)
whenever you wish.
Good luck.
--
Steven D. Litvintchouk
Email: s...@mitre.org
Disclaimer: As far as I am aware, the opinions expressed
herein
are not those of my employer.
MS
"Ron" <No...@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:0FFW5.720$IR4.1...@nnrp1.sbc.net...
>. Do you think Breath-Ease, irrigation and Rhinocort will be sufficient to
break the Afrin and clear
> things up?
I doubt it. Those things will help. It sounds like you may need turbinate
surgery. Go to a different ENT and ask about it.
Try to wean yourself from Afrin, rather than going cold turkey. Use less of
it. For a while I was using just one spray before going to bed in one
nostril (usually one side is worse, no?). Since the turbinate surgery I
don't need it.
I'm not sure that using "Breath-Ease" is any better than plain salt, and
will cost you a lot more money. Try both, and see if you notice a
difference. (This NG tends to be an advertising forum for a particular doc
who has products to sell.)
ENTconsult
antibiotic. Ask your doctor about this.
Michael Muloin
> I'm not sure that using "Breath-Ease" is any better than plain salt, and
> will cost you a lot more money. Try both, and see if you notice a
> difference. (This NG tends to be an advertising forum for a particular doc
> who has products to sell.)
I tend to agree with this statement. It seems to me that since Dr. Grossan
is regularly using this forum as an advertising vehicle for his products, he
should at least make the occasional courteous effort to post innovative
cutting-edge information on sinus disease in response to selected inquiries.
The only responses I have read lately are advertisements for Breathe-Ease,
Clear-Ease, the irrigator tip, or hot chicken soup. Do you also own shares
in Campbell by the way?
Seriously, it would be enlightening for all of us to obtain a first-hand
physician's perspective on recent progress announced at medical conventions
on new methods to treat chronic sinus diseases. Dr. Tichenor is doing a
great job at frequently updating his web site which by the way doesn't
contain any advertisement. The irrigator tip is a great product but I
honestly believe that offering some useful advice that is non-profit
motivated is not too much to ask.
Regards,
Michael M
Don Brady
>I tend to agree with this statement. It seems to me that since Dr. Grossan
>is regularly using this forum as an advertising vehicle for his products, he
>should at least make the occasional courteous effort to post innovative
>cutting-edge information on sinus disease in response to selected inquiries.
>The only responses I have read lately are advertisements for Breathe-Ease,
>Clear-Ease, the irrigator tip, or hot chicken soup. Do you also own shares
>in Campbell by the way?
Michael I know you are having some fun there. But just for the record, I have
read several posts of his, even today alone, that were very helpful and were
not related to his products.
Let's see if I can remember some of them. He confirmed that a short course of
steroids can be used to wean off Afrin. He agreed on the need to avoid
oil-based vaseline. And there were others. I have learned a lot from him
here. I have also learned a lot from you (and I suspect you are either a
unacknowledged doctor or sufficiently knowledgeable that you might as well be).
Yes he plugs his products. I think he really believes in them. People take
these things into account, anyway, when they read posts.
>Seriously, it would be enlightening for all of us to obtain a first-hand
>physician's perspective on recent progress announced at medical conventions
>on new methods to treat chronic sinus diseases. Dr. Tichenor is doing a
>great job at frequently updating his web site which by the way doesn't
>contain any advertisement. The irrigator tip is a great product but I
>honestly believe that offering some useful advice that is non-profit
>motivated is not too much to ask.
I know you do that, and we are all grateful.
But there are not all that many people who are going to have a pure non-profit
motive and still do much. So we take what motives we can get.
By the way, I think you yourself could have a partly *profit* motive and be
better off for it. What don't you start a fee-based medical research web
site. You could stick a signature plugging it on the bottom of your posts!
>
>Regards,
>
>Michael M
>
>
>
>
MS
"Michael Muloin" <mmu...@home.com> wrote in message news:DJxX5.762029
> The only responses I have read lately are advertisements for Breathe-Ease,
> Clear-Ease, the irrigator tip, or hot chicken soup. Do you also own
shares
> in Campbell by the way?
Didn't you know he will soon have his own brand of soup on the market,
called "Soup-Ease"? It's proven to be 100 times more effective than
Campbell's in restoring the cilia.
He also will soon have his own brand of tea out called "Drink-Ease", proven
to be 100 times more effective than Lipton.
(They tested these products by pouring the soup and tea on screws, and the
screws' cilia looked like they were beating exactly 100 times faster than
when other brands were poured on them.)
Clare
I've recently rejoined the newsgroup. I've been using the Grossan tip
for about 7 years now and have eliminated almost all sinus infections. I
used to go from one to another and spend my days in a haze and now I
only get one or two a year, usually when I catch a bad cold. I don't see
how anyone could think that Dr. Grossan is profit-motivated when the
product is not something that gets used up and has to be replaced
frequently. In fact, I only replaced my tip for the first time last
month because my Amazon parrot, Merlin, took a liking to it and chewed
it to bits while I was in the shower and she was cruising the
countertop. My fault for leaving it out :) I thank Dr. Grossan every
time I use the irrigator :) Now, if he'd only find a way to irrigate off
the fat.....
Clare
EdelBarb
>honestly believe that offering some useful advice that is non-profit
>motivated is not too much to ask.
I just have to say I don't think you are being fair here. If I had not read
about the Grossan tip here I would have never known about it and I think
irrigation (which I'm still experimenting with) with the tip is vastly improved
over using an ear syringe and squirting, which is what I used to do. So for
that I am grateful. I'm glad he invented the tip and shares that information
here. It isn't like it is super expensive either. I think you have to be fair
about offering other advice also because Dr. Grossan HAS offered A LOT of
other advice of his own, referral to articles, etc. I just think you aren't
right to be so critical.
Barb E
EdelBarb
>screws' cilia looked like they were beating exactly 100 times faster than
>when other brands were poured on them.)
Hey, even IF irrigation does not cure sinus disease (I'm not sure with my own
situation yet), it does FEEL better after irrigating, especially during
infection, and does help to wash out irritants like allergenic particles. The
screw research was a bit strange, but the tip is a good thing don't you think?
Have you tried it? If not, try it first, then critique it. Just a thought.
nesto...@my-deja.com
edel...@aol.com (EdelBarb) wrote:
> I just have to say I don't think you are being fair here. If I had not read
> about the Grossan tip here I would have never known about it and I think
> irrigation (which I'm still experimenting with) with the tip is vastly improved
> over using an ear syringe and squirting, which is what I used to do. So for
> that I am grateful. I'm glad he invented the tip and shares that information
> here. It isn't like it is super expensive either. I think you have to be fair
> about offering other advice also because Dr. Grossan HAS offered A LOT of
> other advice of his own, referral to articles, etc. I just think you aren't
> right to be so critical.
======================================================
I cannot believe it -Edlebrab and I agree on something!
She is right---
Dr Grossan gives a great deal of advice on this forum and on his website
on an on-going basis. I have saved much of his info in my email mailbox
so I can pass it on to others.
When the FDA withdrew phenypropanolamine cold and sinus
meds, not a single writer
including the Wall Street Journal mentioned or hinted at non drug
substitues. Every one discussed other drugs to
substitute. This shows what 100 million
dollars of advertising does!
The Grossan sinus irrigator tip is DRUGLESS sinus relief.
I was able to go OFF Nasalcrom steroid nasal spray after years of using
it thanx to pulsatile irrigation.
Nestora
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Steven D. Litvintchouk
>
> In article <20001220044716...@ng-mb1.aol.com>,
> edel...@aol.com (EdelBarb) wrote:
>
> > I just have to say I don't think you are being fair here. If I had not read
> > about the Grossan tip here I would have never known about it and I think
> > irrigation (which I'm still experimenting with) with the tip is vastly improved
> > over using an ear syringe and squirting, which is what I used to do. So for
> > that I am grateful. I'm glad he invented the tip and shares that information
> > here. It isn't like it is super expensive either. I think you have to be fair
> > about offering other advice also because Dr. Grossan HAS offered A LOT of
> > other advice of his own, referral to articles, etc. I just think you aren't
> > right to be so critical.
> ======================================================
>
> I cannot believe it -Edlebrab and I agree on something!
>
> She is right---
> Dr Grossan gives a great deal of advice on this forum and on his website
> on an on-going basis. I have saved much of his info in my email mailbox
> so I can pass it on to others.
>
> When the FDA withdrew phenypropanolamine cold and sinus
> meds, not a single writer
> including the Wall Street Journal mentioned or hinted at non drug
> substitues. Every one discussed other drugs to
> substitute. This shows what 100 million
> dollars of advertising does!
Here's another thing that all that advertising does:
In my entire lifetime, I have seen only ONE feature on any TV news
program, that warned how Afrin and other such nasal sprays can be
addictive. The addictive nature of Afrin is simply not discussed on
either TV news or the news-magazines. Gee, I wonder why....
Larry Preuss
<s...@mitre.org> wrote:
> In my entire lifetime, I have seen only ONE feature on any TV news
> program, that warned how Afrin and other such nasal sprays can be
> addictive. The addictive nature of Afrin is simply not discussed on
> either TV news or the news-magazines. Gee, I wonder why....
Possibly because it is so clearly stated on the package that a
high-priced television restatement might seem to be redundant.
Larry
--
ENTconsult
People think they MUST take a pill if they have a simple headache and persons
susceptable to advertising take lots and lots of over the counter pills.
Geeze, what's wrong with lying down with a cold cloth in a dark room if you
have a headache ? Not only does this work for 90% of headaches but you avoid
the side effects of the medicines. MUST you take a pill????
Again, its bad enough the public is brainwashed but when science writers toe
the same line it is really disgusting.
You are right, Steve, the information on Benzalkonium has been out for years
with many articles. It wasn't until Astra decided to come out with their
benzalkonium free medication that anyone knew about it and still they only tell
about it to sell their product!
I applaud the internet for making "other" information avialable.
It is astounding to me the number of patients that improve just by getting them
off the benzalkonium !
Steven D. Litvintchouk
The last time I looked at a package of Afrin, all it said was "Do not
use longer than 3 days." The package did *NOT* say that Afrin can be so
addictive that you need medical help to break the habit. It did not say
that regular use of Afrin can lead to rhinitis medicamentosa.
Compare that innocuous-sounding "warning" on a package of Afrin, with
the warning on a package of cigarettes. Or even the warning on a
package of Sudafed, for that matter.
How about a new label for Afrin that specifically warns about physical
addiction and rhinitis medicamentosa?
Larry Preuss
<s...@mitre.org> wrote:
> The last time I looked at a package of Afrin, all it said was "Do not
> use longer than 3 days." The package did *NOT* say that Afrin can be so
> addictive that you need medical help to break the habit. It did not say
> that regular use of Afrin can lead to rhinitis medicamentosa.
>
> Compare that innocuous-sounding "warning" on a package of Afrin, with
> the warning on a package of cigarettes. Or even the warning on a
> package of Sudafed, for that matter.
>
> How about a new label for Afrin that specifically warns about physical
> addiction and rhinitis medicamentosa?
I am no apologist for Afrin; I have spent my professional life
emphasizing that it should not be used for more than three days. I
wonder, however, how detailed a warning should need be included with a
product (do not put hand inside while machine is running). If the Afrin
package went on to warn about rhinitis medicamentosa, would it further
deter people from misuse? How many people know what rinitis
medicamentosa is? How many, even in this group, can define it clearly? A
reasonable person would conclude that the warning is there for a reason
(use with care if operating heavy machinery). I have heard it said that
including a warning on the package is simply a method of avoiding
lawsuits. Of course it is, but the manufacturer would not warn against
certain uses if they did not have potential actionable consequences; if
there were none, the manufacturer would certainly not publish a
statement that might restrict the volume purchase of their product. If
the warning is required by the government, it must be concluded that the
government feels there are undesirable consequences of non-label use. If
you agree with this contention (and disagreement is certainly
reasonable), then as the hypothetical rational consumer you would heed
the warning. If you are not that hypothetical consumer then no degree of
detail in the warning would constitute adequate deterence from misuse.
If a person is in the habit of ignoring warnings (slow to 25 miles per
hour on ramp), it may be that no complexity of wording will constitute
adequate protection.
Larry
--
MS
"Steven D. Litvintchouk" <s...@mitre.org> wrote in message
news:3A40F305...@mitre.org...
> In my entire lifetime, I have seen only ONE feature on any TV news
> program, that warned how Afrin and other such nasal sprays can be
> addictive. The addictive nature of Afrin is simply not discussed on
> either TV news or the news-magazines. Gee, I wonder why....
It says so on every bottle of the product, not to use for more than three
consecutive days. Any doctor will tell his patients not to use that product
regularly.
The information on this NG about such sprays being addictive has not mostly
been spread by Dr. G., but by sufferers sharing their experiences.
In fact, I think there has been some misinformation spread here by Dr. G
implying that the main reason for the "rebound effect" is the preservative
in the decongestant spray, rather than the decongestant itself. If that were
true, saline sprays with preservative would also have the "rebound effect".
And decongestant spray without preservative (there's one from
Germany--Natru-vent?) would not cause that effect. But look at that
bottle--also says not to use more than three days. If someone started using
the latter regularly, because they thought it's OK to do so because it
doesn't contain preservative, they could get themself into a bad condition.
MS
"ENTconsult" <entco...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001220215843...@ng-mi1.aol.com...
> You are right, Steve, the information on Benzalkonium has been out for
years
> with many articles. It wasn't until Astra decided to come out with their
> benzalkonium free medication that anyone knew about it and still they only
tell
> about it to sell their product!
>
> I applaud the internet for making "other" information avialable.
> It is astounding to me the number of patients that improve just by getting
them
> off the benzalkonium !
> Murray Grossan, M.D.
> http://www.ent-consult.com
I think you are spreading misinformation here by saying that the main cause
of rhinitis medicamentosa, Afrin addiction, etc., is benzlkonium chloride,
MS
"EdelBarb" <edel...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001220045438...@ng-mb1.aol.com...
> Hey, even IF irrigation does not cure sinus disease (I'm not sure with my
own
> situation yet), it does FEEL better after irrigating, especially during
> infection, and does help to wash out irritants like allergenic particles.
The
> screw research was a bit strange, but the tip is a good thing don't you
think?
> Have you tried it? If not, try it first, then critique it. Just a thought.
I didn't criticize the irrigation tip. Yes, I have one, and often use it.
I've written that before.
I do get tired of some of the guru worship here, and shameless
self-promotion, using the newsgroup for free advertising. I'm not sure that
one form of irrigation is so much better than others. The "100 times as
effective" stuff (Dr. G. has started a thread by that name twice in the last
couple weeks) certainly sounds fishy. (Note that he didn't answer the
question whether he commissioned that "research".) So, I can poke fun at it
if I'd like to, even if that incurs the wrath of some guru-worshipers here.
MS
<nesto...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:91qfut$101$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> I was able to go OFF Nasalcrom steroid nasal spray after years of using
> it thanx to pulsatile irrigation.
Nasalcrom is not a steroid spray! It's considered quite harmless really, now
sold OTC. (When I tried it, it didn't help me at all though.)
Don Brady
>effective" stuff (Dr. G. has started a thread by that name twice in the last
>couple weeks)
In fairness, I believe he was just replying to questions about the "100 times"
finding that had been raised in other threads with unrelated titles. Actually
I do like to see such points carried on in their own thread.
Steven D. Litvintchouk
>
> In article <3A41897C...@mitre.org>, "Steven D. Litvintchouk"
> <s...@mitre.org> wrote:
>
> > The last time I looked at a package of Afrin, all it said was "Do not
> > use longer than 3 days." The package did *NOT* say that Afrin can be so
> > addictive that you need medical help to break the habit. It did not say
> > that regular use of Afrin can lead to rhinitis medicamentosa.
> >
> > Compare that innocuous-sounding "warning" on a package of Afrin, with
> > the warning on a package of cigarettes. Or even the warning on a
> > package of Sudafed, for that matter.
> >
> > How about a new label for Afrin that specifically warns about physical
> > addiction and rhinitis medicamentosa?
>
> I am no apologist for Afrin; I have spent my professional life
> emphasizing that it should not be used for more than three days. I
> wonder, however, how detailed a warning should need be included with a
> product (do not put hand inside while machine is running). If the Afrin
> package went on to warn about rhinitis medicamentosa, would it further
> deter people from misuse?
If the warning label used the specific words "habit-forming" and
"addictive," that might deter a lot more people from misuse. The
tobacco companies were finally FORCED to admit that their product is
addictive. The manufacturer of Afrin should do the same.
Steven D. Litvintchouk
>
> "Steven D. Litvintchouk" <s...@mitre.org> wrote in message
> news:3A40F305...@mitre.org...
>
> > In my entire lifetime, I have seen only ONE feature on any TV news
> > program, that warned how Afrin and other such nasal sprays can be
> > addictive. The addictive nature of Afrin is simply not discussed on
> > either TV news or the news-magazines. Gee, I wonder why....
>
> It says so on every bottle of the product, not to use for more than three
> consecutive days. Any doctor will tell his patients not to use that product
> regularly.
First of all, the label doesn't say what will happen if you do use it
longer than three days. Compare that with the warning labels on other
drugs like Benadryl, Sudafed, etc. The label on Benadryl states "This
product may cause DROWSINESS. Do not drive or operate heavy
machinery." That is, it lists the actual SIDE EFFECTS.
The Afrin label should state EXPLICITLY that "use of this product may be
HABIT-FORMING". The label does mention "nasal irritation and burning,"
so omitting the most DANGEROUS side effect (addiction) is hard to
understand--unless it's deliberate.
Secondly, Afrin (and its equivalent competitors) is sold in one-ounce
"economy" sizes that CLEARLY are designed to give many more doses than
just 3 days' worth. Why? Since the label warns you not to share the
package with others because it can spread infection, the manufacturer
must KNOW that an individual patient will use the product for longer
than 3 days. (Just as the cigarette manufacturers knew how addictive
their product was but never admitted it publicly.)
Thirdly, the vast majority of consumers buy Afrin off-the-shelf without
ever asking a doctor about it.
Larry Preuss
<s...@mitre.org> wrote:
> First of all, the label doesn't say what will happen if you do use it
> longer than three days. Compare that with the warning labels on other
> drugs like Benadryl, Sudafed, etc. The label on Benadryl states "This
> product may cause DROWSINESS. Do not drive or operate heavy
> machinery." That is, it lists the actual SIDE EFFECTS.
It would seem that you would like the dangers to be listed so that you
could make your own decision about whether or not to follow the
warnings. This is a legitimate posture, one with which we are all
familiar, but a more simple way of approaching the product is to assume
that the manufacturer _really_ means it when they say that it should be
used for no longer than three days.
> The Afrin label should state EXPLICITLY that "use of this product may be
> HABIT-FORMING". The label does mention "nasal irritation and burning,"
> so omitting the most DANGEROUS side effect (addiction) is hard to
> understand--unless it's deliberate.\
One reason for not stating that Afrin is addicting is that it is _not_,
by any standards of pharmacology or by any definition of the FDA or by
federal narcotics legislation. It is extrememly difficult to make exact
and complete statements in few words, and few consumers would attend to
a complete discussion of the side-effects; this would be akin to
completely reading the manual of a software program. A way around the
problem is to direct the public as to the proper use of the product, and
to hope that they will follow that advice.
> Secondly, Afrin (and its equivalent competitors) is sold in one-ounce
> "economy" sizes that CLEARLY are designed to give many more doses than
> just 3 days' worth. Why?
Because it can be used often over a period of time, as long as it is not
used for longer than three days at a time.
> Thirdly, the vast majority of consumers buy Afrin off-the-shelf without
> ever asking a doctor about it.
And this is why it is clearly labelled. If you would prefer that all
products that carry some danger of misuse be obtained only by
prescription, then there will be no over-the-counter drugs available.
Larry
--
ENTconsult
question whether he commissioned that "research".)
I am not sure what planet you are on or what you are smoking, that question was
answered and its probably in the archives. I would address you by name but I
suppose you have your reasons for not signing your name like honest folks f
do when you post your whines. But in case you were gorked that day, I didn't
commission that study, it was published in a peer review journal along with the
other articles that are quoted in my bibliography on this and other subjects.
Now I know what its like to have a persistent little puppy barking for
attention. I am curious if the little puppy has a name.
Trying to explain scientific research to a little puppy is difficult at best,
but when the puppy won't listen and keeps on whining it is more difficult.
Mike Murray
wrote:
>The "100 times as
>effective" stuff (Dr. G. has started a thread by that name twice in the last
>couple weeks) certainly sounds fishy. (Note that he didn't answer the
>question whether he commissioned that "research".) So, I can poke fun at it
>if I'd like to, even if that incurs the wrath of some guru-worshipers here.
My guess is that somewhere along the line results that were summarized
as being two orders of magnitude got translated into being precisely
100. There isn't much difference between 97 and 103 in a study like
this, where results probably can be mapped only analogically to the
human sinus anatomy. After all, how could one measure before and
after sinus mucus conditions in a living human subject without
unacceptable risk to the subject? I haven't read the study, so I'm
only guessing.
MS
> (Note that he didn't answer the
> question whether he commissioned that "research".)
>
> I am not sure what planet you are on or what you are smoking, that
question was
> answered and its probably in the archives.
Seems like the good doc becomes very defensive about anyone questioning him,
and needs to start insulting people.
>I would address you by name but I
> suppose you have your reasons for not signing your name like honest folks
f
> do when you post your whines.
More insults. Many people use their initials, just their first name, or a
nickname as their log on internet name. In fact, you use a nickname (or
trade name), ENT-Consult. There's no reason to suggest I'm dishonest by
posting under my initials.
>But in case you were gorked that day,
Not a very dignified way for a doctor to write, to a newsgroup of sinus
sufferers.
>I didn't
> commission that study, it was published in a peer review journal along
with the
> other articles that are quoted in my bibliography on this and other
subjects.
> Now I know what its like to have a persistent little puppy barking for
> attention. I am curious if the little puppy has a name.
> Trying to explain scientific research to a little puppy is difficult at
best,
> but when the puppy won't listen and keeps on whining it is more difficult.
> Murray Grossan, M.D.
> http://www.ent-consult.com
Now you're calling people dogs. So hurt by anyone daring to question what
you say, that you take to insults, calling people animals, insinuating that
they are dishonest, etc. Not very professional behavior. Do you talk to your
patients like that too?
ENTconsult
It is that there are so many warnings and dont's that the mind doesn't register
the important ones.
I visited an oil refinery. On every wall was plastered
don't smoke
don't run
don't spill
don't mix ...
and so on. On one wall I counted 20 of these. What happens is that the
important ones are lost.
Same with the PDR. Listing every possible side effect known to man, the
important and significant ones are lost.
It is difficult for the human mind to sort through all these negatives to find
the one that is significant.
We are only human.
Only now are highway engineers beginning to appreciate that when there are too
many signs at an exit it is confusing.
MS
> question whether he commissioned that "research".)
>
> I am not sure what planet you are on or what you are smoking
(remainder of insults deleted)
Doc, was it you by any chance who wrote the post to this newsgroup by
"Chrome", calling me a troll? The only post ever written to this newsgroup
by that name. The writer apparently lives in Southern California, as he
wrote to other newsgroups about places to eat in Orange and L.A. County.
With your tendency to attack anyone who questions you, I wouldn't be
surprised if that was you. Just wondering.
Don Brady
Afrin package. Actually, I think the drug should be prescription-only.
In the package I have, the "Do not use the product for more than 3 days. "
caution is in small print, not bold, on the side, in a long paragraph which
begins in bold "WARNING: Do not exceed recommended dosage." Then it gets into
describing possible "temporary discomfort" before it gets to the "3 days"
warning. At a mimimum, I would think the "3 days" warning should be in bold.
The reason for not using it for more than 3 days is given ("Frequent or
prolonged use may cause nasal congestion to recur or worsen.") but that comes
after "Use only as directed."
In the current scheme of regulation of drugs, people expect that any drug that
is available over-the-counter will be free of any significant side effects, and
that they do not need to study what those are, or get counselling from a
pharmacist or doctor to use them freely.
I do not think Afrin has caused too much grief to too many people for it to be
sold without controls, in our current regulatory scheme.
Don Brady
Personally, I think that the warnings should be much more prominent on the
Afrin package. Actually, I think the drug should be prescription-only.
In the package I have, the "Do not use the product for more than 3 days. "
caution is in small print, not bold, on the side, in a long paragraph which
begins in bold "WARNING: Do not exceed recommended dosage." Then it gets into
describing possible "temporary discomfort" before it gets to the "3 days"
warning. At a mimimum, I would think the "3 days" warning should be in bold.
The reason for not using it for more than 3 days is given ("Frequent or
prolonged use may cause nasal congestion to recur or worsen.") but that comes
after "Use only as directed."
In the current scheme of regulation of drugs, people expect that any drug that
is available over-the-counter will be free of any significant side effects, and
that they do not need to study what those are, or get counselling from a
pharmacist or doctor to use them freely.
I think Afrin has caused too much grief to too many people for it to be sold
Disasterer
signs with his name, just as he did when responding to you in the immediate
prior post.
Susan
MS <m...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:t46ro7o...@corp.supernews.com...
MS
"Disasterer" <sso...@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
news:925teq$15uc$1...@node17.cwnet.frontiernet.net...
> Actually, and this is not a form of guru worship, Dr Grossan nearly always
> signs with his name, just as he did when responding to you in the
immediate
> prior post.
> Susan
And I often sign with my first name, as you did here. "Disasterer" is
obviously not your name, but a pseudonym.. The point is, he was calling me
"dishonest" for using my initials as my sign-on name, a common Usenet
practice. It seemed like he was looking for any way to attack me. Seems like
it hurts his ego for anyone to question what he writes.
Yours truly,
Mike