Are women attracted to shy guys?
RobG8963
Are any women attracted to shy quiet types, or just "jerks". I read
somewhere that girls were beginning to look for shy quiet guys because it
presented a challenge, and they wanted to tackle it. Just wondering
because I can't honestly say I've ever seen any evidence in real life that
supports this.
Later......
Rob
Mirtika
<<Are any women attracted to shy quiet types, or just "jerks".>>
Of course SOME women are attracted to shy guys, just as some women are
attracted to jerks, just as some men are attracted to female 'jerks', just
as some men are attracted to shy females.
In my teens, I had one very shy boyfriend, which meant I had to be the
"aggressor." My husband would never have asked me out had I not been
OVERT. He was so nervous that his hands were shaking the first time he
asked for my number, and he wouldn't have gotten the nerve to ASK for that
much had I not made it very, very plain that I welcomed his attentions.
Did I see out shy guys? Not particularly. I also dated extroverts.
Was I attracted to shy guys? Yep, and extroverts, too.
I will admit there is a certain charm to the guy who looks a little
flustered, who blushes. It's endearing to me. But that's my own quirk.
I don't think you can pigeonhole people. Someone may prefer shy, but
marry assertive. Someone may prefer brunette, but marry redhead.
Attraction strikes unexpectedly. Love comes when it comes.
Mir
Love can heal when truth is found.
"...in this imperfect world, love is most perfect in its perfect
imperfection." (The Seventh Seal)
matthew
What great words of wisdom you speak.
But alas, you are married.
Sigh....
Alex Clark
In article <53rr0o$m...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, robg...@aol.com says...
>Are any women attracted to shy quiet types, or just "jerks". ...
I hope that "jerk" isn't going to turn into a code-word for "men who get
the women we aren't getting," or (even worse) "men who aren't self-
effacing." If anyone who's got what we wish we had is by definition a
"jerk" then it would be wrong even to try to get what we want, because
if we did then we'd be jerks too.
As for the rest of the question, of course women are sometimes attracted
to shy, quiet men. But it might not last any longer than the first
unsuccessful attempt to make conversation. Or they might go on being
attracted but not do anything about it because the shy men are so
difficult to flirt with that they seem to be simply uninterested.
Alex Clark
Eric Pepke
In article <53vabo$n...@news.emi.com>, ccl...@vicon.net (Alex Clark) wrote:
> I hope that "jerk" isn't going to turn into a code-word for "men who get
> the women we aren't getting," or (even worse) "men who aren't self-
> effacing." If anyone who's got what we wish we had is by definition a
> "jerk" then it would be wrong even to try to get what we want, because
> if we did then we'd be jerks too.
Well, there's something that has to be grappled with, here.
The following is, to the best of my knowledge, the truth:
Women are attracted to alpha and high-status males. One way of appearing to be an alpha male is to be a jerk. Another way is to be a performer. Another way is to be wealthy. Another way is to produce the right body language.
Of course, not all of this requires one really to be a jerk. HOWEVER, all of it requires an emotional state which, at least at first, will feel a lot like arrogance. People say "confidence," but the reason they put it that way is that it's a nice think to say, and they like saying nice things about themselves. The fact remains that, if you're uncertain about yourself and you don't have a lot of experience with this, at first it's going to feel like arrogance.
> As for the rest of the question, of course women are sometimes attracted
> to shy, quiet men. But it might not last any longer than the first
> unsuccessful attempt to make conversation. Or they might go on being
> attracted but not do anything about it because the shy men are so
> difficult to flirt with that they seem to be simply uninterested.
Yes, all this is true. In most cases, however, they're not interested in quiet men in the first place, or they're only interested in them as "friends."
Occasionaly, however, they are, and occasionally, they get through to one. At this point there are other problems, which I may talk about later.
--
Eric Pepke
Supercomputer Computations Research Institute
Florida State University
pe...@scri.fsu.edu
Gordon Rogers
>As for the rest of the question, of course women are sometimes attracted
>to shy, quiet men. But it might not last any longer than the first
>unsuccessful attempt to make conversation. Or they might go on being
>attracted but not do anything about it because the shy men are so
>difficult to flirt with that they seem to be simply uninterested.
>
Then maybe I'm totally screwed. I have as much confidence as I need,
and have no trouble at all maintaining an intelligent discussion. But
I can't talk about _nothing_, and I simply _cannot_ flirt because I
find it disgusting.
master chink aka the asian missle
i agree flirting is the most despicable violation of .......
Paul Lindemeyer
Melissa O'Brien wrote:
=
> In about six months, I=B9ll be marrying a wonderful man I met
> on this newsgroup: not because he is =B3alpha=B2 or =B3high-status,=B2
> and he=B9s anything but a jerk; but because he=B9s loving,
> gentle, funny, intelligent, romantic, communicative, and
> yes, shy -- enough to empathize with my own shyness, but
> determined enough to overcome it, as am I, that we support
> each other in our efforts. My point is, many of you have
> similar qualities, the kind of qualities that make for a
> much more successful relationship than being an "alpha" or a
> jerk does, though it may make for fewer relationships.
> And I=B9m not alone; there are many women who value such
> qualities far above being "=B3alpha."=B2
> =
> And bear in mind -- most women are attracted by, even need,
> romance; and nothing kills romance quicker than cynicism.
Thanks for saying this, Melissa. It was a real breath of fresh air. =
Now if us male cynics can only learn how not to kill romance for =
ourselves...before we even get out of the house.
-- =
Paul Lindemeyer (pau...@gannett.infi.net)
--------------------------------------------------------
CELEBRATING THE SAXOPHONE - An Illustrated History
At your local bookseller from William Morrow & Co.
James Gater
In message <96291.020...@psuvm.psu.edu>
master chink aka the asian missle <KKL...@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
> i agree flirting is the most despicable violation of .......
I don't quite follow. Flirting is a way of expressing sexual interest
in a non-serious way. It allows you to say that you fancy someone,
without commiting yourself body and soul to an irretrievable
misjudgement - most people don't like making a prat of themselves...
If they flirt back with you, then you know that they are at least
semi-interested - though of course, sometimes nothing comes of it.
That's the problem I always found with flirting; trying to work out
the rules, and play by them...
The same can be said of small talk. Life can be deadly boring if you
take it 100% seriously all of the time. Small talk is there for a
different purpose to
say, a conversation between nuclear physicists about quantum theory.
It's there purely as a means to an end - to spend time with other
people, feel something in common with them, and to relax by not
having to use your highest logic capabilities at full blast all the
time. That's not to say all talk has to mean nothing - quite the
opposite. Take sport, for example. I go down the gym regularly, and
work out. When i'm doing that, I'm stetching my body to it's limits,
and that feels good. However, I also need to sit down sometimes in
front of the telly, or listen to music and let my body rest.
If you really really LOATHE small talk, then you are basically
different. That is not wrong, no more than liking small talk is. It
just means you're going to get the most out of life if you hang with
different people, who also always like their conversation to have a
'mental' point to it.
I must admit though, I don't quite understand why you think flirting
is so disgusting. Do you think you could explain why you feel it is
such a bad thing?
I'm intrigued.
--
'Ah drat dear, I'm just grave.'
e-mail: j.g...@zetnet.co.uk
www: http://www.brunel.ac.uk/~ee95jjg
wombn
>i agree flirting is the most despicable violation of .......
I feel sorry for you and Gordon, missing out on something that can be fun
and good for the self-esteem...
Even married people like to feel like others find them attractive. Only
way to do that is to flirt a little.
It does no harm if both people take it simply as flirtation, not as a
head-game, and come away feeling like someone appreciated them a little.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
wombn
"An' ye harm none, do as ye will."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
**** take the "s" off the end of my email address ****
Yuri Syrov
Well, I'm a real jerk, by definition...
And, by the way, the most successful people around are jerks (e.g. Bill
Gates, majority of my friends)...
Here're the definitions (tested on practice):
1. if you're dedicated at work, stay late - you're jerk for everybody at
home and your girlfriend
2. if you aren't paying attention to a random flirt, because you're too shy
and careful in meeting people - you're jerk for the girl trying to flirt
3. if you're very sensitive and care about your friends - you're jerk,
because they will use you and stop respect you
4. if you're so busy with your own business that you have problems finding
time for next date - you're jerk
5. if you don't drink or smoke, you'll have problems in company - you're
jerk
6. if you're feeling better in 30-40+ auditorium sharing ideas and deep
thoughts - you're jerk for 20-30yo kids
7. if you're nice - you're jerk
8. if you're rich - you're jerk
9. if you're smart - you're jerk
10. if you're strong and healthy - you're jerk
... TBC ...
Just random notes, nothing serious.
*8)
Alex Clark <ccl...@vicon.net> wrote in article <53vabo$n...@news.emi.com>...
> In article <53rr0o$m...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, robg...@aol.com says...
> >Are any women attracted to shy quiet types, or just "jerks". ...
>
> I hope that "jerk" isn't going to turn into a code-word for "men who get
> the women we aren't getting," or (even worse) "men who aren't self-
> effacing." If anyone who's got what we wish we had is by definition a
> "jerk" then it would be wrong even to try to get what we want, because
> if we did then we'd be jerks too.
>
Melissa O'Brien
>Well, there's something that has to be grappled with, here.
>
>The following is, to the best of my knowledge, the truth:
>
e a performer. Another way is to be wealthy. Another way is to produce the right body language.
SOME women are attracted to men like this -- just as SOME
men care for nothing but appearance. But you do us an
injustice and yourself a disservice by assuming that this is
true of all women. Some women are too shallow to seek more
than the romance-novel image of the perfect man; some are
so insecure that they must live through someone else; some
know and expect nothing other than to be mistreated. But are
any of these the kind of woman you want? Do you really
want a woman for whom you’ll have to transform your
personality or perform for the rest of your life, or who
will probably bore you in pretty short order because she
has so little to offer, or who will leave you if you don’t
always live up to the image you’ve created?
In about six months, I’ll be marrying a wonderful man I met
on this newsgroup: not because he is “alpha” or “high-status,”
and he’s anything but a jerk; but because he’s loving,
gentle, funny, intelligent, romantic, communicative, and
yes, shy -- enough to empathize with my own shyness, but
determined enough to overcome it, as am I, that we support
each other in our efforts. My point is, many of you have
similar qualities, the kind of qualities that make for a
much more successful relationship than being an "alpha" or a
jerk does, though it may make for fewer relationships.
And I’m not alone; there are many women who value such
qualities far above being "“alpha."”
wombn
On Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:59:00 -0400, Paul Lindemeyer
<pau...@gannett.infi.net> wrote:
>Melissa O'Brien wrote:
>
>> And bear in mind -- most women are attracted by, even need,
>> romance; and nothing kills romance quicker than cynicism.
>
>Thanks for saying this, Melissa. It was a real breath of fresh air.
>
>Now if us male cynics can only learn how not to kill romance for
>ourselves...before we even get out of the house.
i'm grappling with this very subject right now.... You couldn't have said
it better.
It really brings me down to have to fight against another's cynicism.
Thank you!
wombn
On Fri, 18 Oct 1996 20:12:56 GMT, wo...@pacbell.nets (wombn) wrote:
>On Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:59:00 -0400, Paul Lindemeyer
><pau...@gannett.infi.net> wrote:
>
>>Melissa O'Brien wrote:
>>
>>> And bear in mind -- most women are attracted by, even need,
>>> romance; and nothing kills romance quicker than cynicism.
>>
>>Thanks for saying this, Melissa. It was a real breath of fresh air.
>>
>>Now if us male cynics can only learn how not to kill romance for
>>ourselves...before we even get out of the house.
>
>i'm grappling with this very subject right now.... You couldn't have said
>it better.
>
>It really brings me down to have to fight against another's cynicism.
>
>Thank you!
uh oh! I think y'all triggered a rant here.....
Here's what another person's cynicism does to me:
I try to inject some optimism, point out other ways of looking at
something, wrack my brains trying to find ways around the cyncism...
But it's like tossing my energy into an enormous vacuum. It gets sucked
away, has no effect, and doesn't come back. Just drains my energy away.
And I cannot afford to give away my energy. I'm struggling just to get
through the days, just to get out of bed, just to prepare for moving to
another city and starting a new job.
Not me, nor anyone else, can heal someone else's cynicism. Only the cynic
can heal it.
I may have to stop trying to be supportive in the newsgroups for awhile.
Need to reserve my energy.
Eric Pepke
In article <546o0h$k...@herald.concentric.net>, Melissa O'Brien <RT...@concentric.net> wrote:
> SOME women are attracted to men like this -- just as SOME
> men care for nothing but appearance. But you do us an
> injustice and yourself a disservice by assuming that this is
> true of all women.
My intent was to explain the mechanism behind the observed phenomenon of women's going for jerks, not to characterize all women. Nowhere did I say "all women." In fact, in the last part of the message I acknowledged that sometimes things happen differently.
I get the feeling you're just trying to pick a fight with me.
> Some women are too shallow to seek more
> than the romance-novel image of the perfect man; some are
> so insecure that they must live through someone else; some
> know and expect nothing other than to be mistreated. But are
> any of these the kind of woman you want?
I think you're making a false dichotomy here; you're assuming that everyone in the world is either completely superficial or completely deep.
In my observation, this is not so. In my observation, what happens is that relationships start off superficial and deepen over time.
> Do you really
> want a woman for whom you’ll have to transform your
> personality or perform for the rest of your life, or who
> will probably bore you in pretty short order because she
> has so little to offer, or who will leave you if you don’t
> always live up to the image you’ve created?
I think you're making a straw man for the purposes of knocking him down and, again, I think you're using a false dichotomy to do it.
> In about six months, I’ll be marrying a wonderful man I met
> on this newsgroup: not because he is “alpha” or “high-status,”
> and he’s anything but a jerk; but because he’s loving,
> gentle, funny, intelligent, romantic, communicative, and
> yes, shy -- enough to empathize with my own shyness, but
> determined enough to overcome it, as am I, that we support
> each other in our efforts.
Well, I'm very happy for you.
Personally, I wasn't that lucky. I, too, was told about the woman that would see my deeper qualities, when I was painfully shy, and how it would be wonderful because she would see me for what I was. When she came along, it took me six months before I could even touch her hand, so shy was I. I wanted to have the monogamous lifetime relationship. What I got was something quite different. She had borderline personality disorder. If you don't know what that is, look it up in the DSM-IV. My life was a living hell for three and one-half years.
So, forgive me if I'm just a little reluctant to believe in the fairy tale happy ending. You can feel all the contempt for me that you like, but at least I don't have to go to bed not knowing if I'm going to be killed in my sleep any more.
Eric Praetzel
In article <53rr0o$m...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> robg...@aol.com (RobG8963) writes:
>Are any women attracted to shy quiet types, or just "jerks". I read
>somewhere that girls were beginning to look for shy quiet guys because it
>presented a challenge, and they wanted to tackle it. Just wondering
See what happens when you get old information!
They are only doing that for another 2 months and 2 weeks. Then the
red heads are going to ignore all men, the blonds will only wear
business suits and the brunetts are going to play look-but-no-touch.
>because I can't honestly say I've ever seen any evidence in real life that
>supports this.
Some people don't mind a challenge; they like to go after people who
don't seem to be attracted to them; consider it an obsessive habit
that is self defeating.
Many people find people who are attracted to them; much more attractive
than they'd otherwise find them. ie they spend time with people who
like to spend time with them.
As Eric pointed out; Alpha males will get attention, it is genetic and
societal. But we are not a herd and people don't always make decisions
based upon what they think other people think that they should do.
So, if you meet someone who happens to like the way you smile; she might
just want to see what is behind the shyness. Then again, you may be
so shy and invisable that nobody meets or notices you and you'll go a
few more decades without so much as a date.
Look at people as individuals.
On the other hand; sometimes it is good that we have social "norms".
ie when certainly male family members get togehter they always know
that they can talk about "sports"; except for me of course. We have
to be "normal" enough to be accepted but individual (and visable)
enough to be noticed. People may be attracted to symetrical average
faces; but that doesn't make anyone interesting or fun to be with.
Eric Praetzel, http://ece.uwaterloo.ca/~praetzel
Melissa O'Brien
pe...@scri.fsu.edu (Eric Pepke) wrote:
>My intent was to explain the mechanism behind the observed >phenomenon of women's going for jerks, not to characterize all >women. =
Nowhere did I say "all women." In fact, in the last >part of the message I acknowledged that sometimes things >happen differently.=
I get the feeling you're just trying to >pick a fight with me.
You know -- and I use you in the collective sense -- a while
back, a woman whom I’d never seen post here before posted a
message to the effect that she was so fed up with the
anti-women bias she saw in this newsgroup that she was
unsubscribing and signing up with alt.support.social-phobia
instead. Well, I understood her reaction, because I, and many
of the women lurkers I’ve corresponded with, see the same
bias,and therefore hesitate to post, but I didn’t agree with
her response. I feel that if you disagree with something, you
have a right to voice your opinion; and if you disagree with
something you feel may injure others, you have an obligation
to do so, rather than just walk away. So y’all are stuck with
me :-).
So, particularly when I feel the female point of view, which
is so sadly underrepresented here, is being misrepresented by a
man, I speak up, just as I would expect you to speak up if I
made a statement like “Men are attracted to big-breasted,
empty-headed blondes.” No doubt some are, but I wouldn’t
presume to speak for all or even the majority of men; to do so
would be demeaning. I’m not trying to pick a fight with you,
Eric, and I certainly don’t feel contempt for you, as you
wrote below. What I am doing is trying to convey the point of
view shared by myself and many women I know.
What I got out of your post -- and perhaps I read it wrongly?
-- was that a man should be a jerk, a performer, wealthy, or
have the right body language (i.e., an “alpha” or “high-status”
male) to attract a woman; otherwise “in most cases, they
[women] are not interested in quiet men in the first place, or
they're only interested in them as "friends," and you alluded
to other problems with the occasional exceptions you mentioned,
which doesn’t seem to leave any room for positive exceptions.
There’s no question this is true for many women; but there are
also many of us who look for far different qualities, such as
those I listed in my first post -- as I pointed out, qualities
shared by many of the men here, and that are much more
conducive to a healthy relationship than, for example, being a
jerk is. What concerns me is that some might take away the
message, as I did, that they should be the equivalent of a
silver-backed gorilla to get a woman (which doesn’t by any
means translate to having a woman). I gave my own example
simply to support what I was saying.
>> Some women are too shallow to seek more
>> than the romance-novel image of the perfect man; some are
>> so insecure that they must live through someone else; some
>> know and expect nothing other than to be mistreated. But are
>> any of these the kind of woman you want?
>I think you're making a false dichotomy here; you're assuming >that everyone in the world is either completely superficial >or comp=
letely deep.
Not at all; some are shallow, but I wouldn’t equate insecurity
or victimization with superficiality, by any means.
>Personally, I wasn't that lucky. I, too, was told about the >woman that would see my deeper qualities, when I was >painfully shy, =
and how it would be wonderful because she >would see me for what I was. When she came along, it took >me six months before I could =
even touch her hand, so shy was >I. I wanted to have the monogamous lifetime relationship. >What I got was something quite differe=
nt. She had borderline >personality disorder. If you don't know what that is, look >it up in the DSM-IV. My life was a living hel=
l for three and >one-half years. So, forgive me if I'm just a little reluctant >to believe in the fairy tale happy ending. You can =
feel all >the contempt for me that you like, but at least I don't have >to go to bed not knowing if I'm going to be killed in my sle=
ep >any more.
I certainly don’t feel contempt -- it must have been a
horrendous and harrowing experience, and you’re to be
congratulated for ending it. Not everyone gets out of such
relationships. But it goes without saying that not every woman
who looks for deeper qualities than muscles and a tan has a
mental disorder or is murderous.
I guess the message I’m trying to convey to all of you is that
there is hope if you’re not an “alpha.” Granted, the “alpha” women
may not beat down your door, and I wouldn’t recommend pursuing
a woman so shy she can never look you in the eye or has severe
emotional problems. But there are plenty of us who are in
between, who are naturally quiet and reserved ,or recovering
shys, who are looking for a friend and partner as well as a
lover -- not for a protector or master or superman. We may not
be as visible -- we tend to hang out more on the computer than
in clubs -- but we do exist, in fairly large numbers, in fact.
Mind you, that doesn’t mean that a man with emotional problems
should look for a woman equally troubled rather than dealing
with his own problems. As to whether you should pursue a
relationship with a shy or quiet woman at all, let happiness,
not other people, be your guide. If you’re happy, go with it;
ultimately, that’s all that matters. If you’re not, don’t. But
take us into account before you start beating your chests and
yodelling :-).
P.S. Eric, lately, for some reason, it’s been difficult to read
your posts, because the lines often go off the page, or
sometimes sentences run on top of each other as in your last
post -- the part about the woman you were involved with
wasn’t legible until I copied it to the posting window.
matthew
Speaking only for myself, I am glad you replied in defense of your
gender's honor rather than run away to a "safe" place. We "shys" may be
shy, but we are not weak. You are a good representative.
Thanks.
Melissa O'Brien
>Anyone with eyes can see that women prefer the Alpha male. I prefer very pretty, young, skinny women with big
>doe eyes and shiny skin and hair. But I am not able to attract a woman like that. So maybe the woman I will
>meet (have met, actually) is a little plump. She's not so young. Fine, then hopefully she can put up with
>the fact that I don't have too much hair, or that I'm not too tall. If she was an alpha female, she probably
>wouldn't be looking at me. And if I was an Alpha male, I probably would'nt be looking at her. But
>nevertheless, we have met, and we like each other.
>
>Nothing wrong with what you wrote Melissa, but you still have not refuted Erick's point. He is correct, just
>look around you. It isn't too hard to verify. That's OK though. Non-Alpha males can still meet non-alpha
>females, and we can happy. At least I am hoping this is the case. I know it worked for my folks, and I see
>it is working for you. I just choose not to ignore the obvious facts of reality in order to feel better about
>myself. I feel better about myself when I understand reality and successfully deal with it to the best of my
>abilities.
Sigh... Apparently my point didn’t sink in, so let’s look at it another way. Let’s define
an “Alpha” male, and call him Alpha A. Let’s make him like the husband of a friend of a
friend of mine, who married him specifically because he was “Alpha”. He’s a doctor, very
wealthy, quite handsome, and has an excess of confidence. Now let’s look at his wife’s
life. She hardly ever sees him, because he’s always at the hospital, and every time they
go somewhere he gets called away. He’s so busy, he barely acknowledges his children. He’s
so wealthy that there’s no incentive for her to work (in fact, he won’t let her), so she
has nothing to fill her days but shopping (the nanny takes care of the kids), and pesters
her working friends constantly to fill up her time at the expense of theirs. He’s so
handsome that women frequently hit on him; he’s had at least one affair, and his wife
lives in fear of his finding a more “alpha” woman (there’s a pre-nup, in case you’re
wondering). And he’s so confident -- in fact, arrogant -- that he saps the will of
everyone around him, including his wife’s, who’s afraid to breathe without his approval.
Now, many women look at Alpha A and swoon. They don’t think of all the negatives, they
think of the size of the diamond on their finger, and how their friends will envy them.
But I, and many women I’ve known, look at Alpha A and think, “No way in hell.”
Now lets define Alpha B. He’s very loving, intelligent, funny, introspective,
communicative, actually likes women, is romantic, and is devoted to his wife and kids.
He doesn’t have a lot of money -- he puts his wife and family before work. He may be, to
take some of the characteristics you mentioned, thinning on top or on the short side, or
not too handsome, or whatever, may even be shy :-).
Now, some women look at Alpha B and think “No way in hell. Too short, too bald, too
shy...” But I, and many women I’ve known, look at Alpha B and think, “He has the
characteristics that are really important to me, he shares my beliefs and goals; he’s
someone with whom I could be happy. The fact that he likes cuddling is much likelier to
make me happy than a full head of hair is; the fact that he listens and really talks to
me is much likelier to make me happy than an extra couple of inches of height.”
My point is, one woman’s “alpha” is another woman’s “no way in hell” (and there are all
kinds of variations in between). Now, I wouldn’t say that the women who go for Alpha B
are ignoring reality in order to feel better about themselves; on the contrary, I’d say
they have a far better idea of reality, and more respect for themselves, than the Alpha A
women.
If you are attracted to “alpha” females but can be happy with a “non-alpha” female, I’m happy
for you. Frankly, I suspect you’ll be happier than if you, a self-described “non-alpha,” had
attracted an “alpha,” because excessive admiration tends to warp people. But be careful not
to project your “alpha” criteria onto everyone else, particularly women.
Melissa O'Brien
Thanks for the kind word, Matthew. And I agree -- shys are some of the bravest people; we face
constant challenges.
Paul Lindemeyer
Darla J wrote:
... when you
> "look around" and "open your eyes", who do you see? Alpha males and Alpha females!
> And guess what? They attract each other! When you "look around", do you see a
> non-alpha male or female? No....they are not in the bars or in the most visible
> type of society. They aren't anywhere in the public eye where they must play the
> Alpha games.
(snip)
> This group should know better than anybody that ALL people aren't in the bars or
> gadding about town. Some of us are at home with our books, computers, old movies,
> good friends, etc. Perhaps we should really be looking at how to connect the
> non-alpha folks in a way that is comfortable for them?
Darla, I'm glad somebody said this.
We should definitely be looking to connect people in new ways. Somehow,
with tv, suburbs, cars and 60+ hour a week jobs, we've lost the art.
I somehow don't suspect the solution will come from the socially
skilled, who are getting theirs (so to speak), or from the truly
helpless, who have no clue how to begin. Some caring psychologist with a
soc. minor ought to write a book and get on all the talkshows.
People aren't going to like to hear that our established way of life
causes so much loneliness and forced alienation, but airing the issue
would be to the common good.
--
matthew
I have met shy women. It always turns out that they are not as shy as I
am and they can't stand my fear sometimes. On the other hand, the
"alpha" women I have gone out with tend to be very shy deep down and I
connect with them like few other guys do.
BUT -- I would rather be with a truly shy female. Many say they are and
I realize they are not shy, it's just that they were shy about
approaching me! I dunno. Guess I'm just generalizing again. Oh well.
One day, it will all make sense.
Matthew
Kooler
Thanks for your post, Melissa.
As to the subject, I'd say, women ARE attracted to shy guys (even
"alpha")...
But, personally, I do (feeling somegirl's interest):
- not pay any attention, willingly or unwillingly, but it cleans everything
out;
- become a friend... and, BTW, the friendship is really hard to turn into
something deeper;
- having minimal experience in social life, spoil something causing
catastrophic breakup...
And this happens when she makes first steps.
I've never ever tried to contact somebody at first...
And I'm not alone here...
*8)
------
Melissa O'Brien <RT...@concentric.net> wrote
[skipped]
I guess the message I’m trying to convey to all of you is that
there is hope if you’re not an “alpha.” Granted, the “alpha” women
may not beat down your door, and I wouldn’t recommend pursuing
a woman so shy she can never look you in the eye or has severe
emotional problems. But there are plenty of us who are in
between, who are naturally quiet and reserved ,or recovering
shys, who are looking for a friend and partner as well as a
lover -- not for a protector or master or superman. We may not
be as visible -- we tend to hang out more on the computer than
in clubs -- but we do exist, in fairly large numbers, in fact.
Mind you, that doesn’t mean that a man with emotional problems
should look for a woman equally troubled rather than dealing
with his own problems. As to whether you should pursue a
relationship with a shy or quiet woman at all, let happiness,
not other people, be your guide. If you’re happy, go with it;
ultimately, that’s all that matters. If you’re not, don’t. But
take us into account before you start beating your chests and
yodelling :-).
----------
Darla J
Melissa O'Brien <RT...@concentric.net> wrote:
>Sigh... Apparently my point didn’t sink in, so let’s look at it another way.
I am sorry that I missed the original posting, but the gist of the thread is all too
clear. I have tried to make the same point as you, Melissa, several times on this
newsgroup, but it is not popular. There seems to me to be a few fellas (and I very
gratefully acknowledge that this is not the opinion of ALL guys) who love to believe
that women are jerks because women prefer to date jerks. Due to the high degree of
intellect in this newsgroup, there is acknowledgement that ALL women are not this
way, but certainly MOST are, therefore the 80/20 rule applies and ALL women get
tarred with the brush anyways. In my attempts to avoid responding to a
generalization with another generalization, I have stated *facts* in my responses.
Such as my personal experiences and those of my friends. These postings were not
too popular (or were too boring) for the respondees to reply.
The case against women seems to carry a lot of "Look around you" type of statements,
not to mention the infamous "anyone with eyes can see" comment. Herein lies the
answer (similarly stated in response to a different posting by a *guy*)... when you
"look around" and "open your eyes", who do you see? Alpha males and Alpha females!
And guess what? They attract each other! When you "look around", do you see a
non-alpha male or female? No....they are not in the bars or in the most visible
type of society. They aren't anywhere in the public eye where they must play the
Alpha games. Therefore, when you look around, yes, you see females (alpha)
attracted to Alpha males. That's all you are ever going to see because that's the
only type of attractions/relationships that are on display.
This group should know better than anybody that ALL people aren't in the bars or
gadding about town. Some of us are at home with our books, computers, old movies,
good friends, etc. Perhaps we should really be looking at how to connect the
non-alpha folks in a way that is comfortable for them? I always thought that this
newsgroup was a good place to start, but the bitterness of the "all women prefer
jerks" theme seems to prevail. I guess victims will be victims.
Thanks for trying to defend the quality of our gender, Melissa. My congratulations
on your successful relationship with a shy guy (does he have a brother? ;) )
arcana
> > In about six months, I=92ll be marrying a wonderful man I met=20
> > on this newsgroup: not because he is =93alpha=94 or =93high-status,=94=
=20
> > and he=92s anything but a jerk; but because he=92s loving,=20
> > gentle, funny, intelligent, romantic, communicative, and=20
> > yes, shy -- enough to empathize with my own shyness, but=20
> > determined enough to overcome it, as am I, that we support=20
> > each other in our efforts.
So, how did the two of you ever get over your initial shyness and worked
up the nerve to talk to each other?
wrd...@ix.netcom.com
Eric Pepke wrote:
.
>
> The following is, to the best of my knowledge, the truth:
>
> Women are attracted to alpha and high-status males.
Not always. Many of us have had "gorgeous" guys who are jerks, and
don't want another one. Many of us want someone like ourselves, a bit
shy, not a macho man type, etc.
> Yes, all this is true. In most cases, however, they're not interested in quiet men in the first place, or they're only interested in them as "friends."
Maybe this has been your experience. I like quiet men, but it is very
difficult to get them to ask you out, because they are shy. Usually, I
have to suggest coffee or a movie first.
And as for lasting, my present relationship has lasted 4 years....
Yes, the busty, 20-something, cheerleader types will go for the gorgeous
high status men. So look for shy, quiet women at bookstore readings,
classes on New Ages stuff, seminars, the Library, etc.
NB
Mirtika Schultz
Melissa O'Brien wrote: <<Now lets define Alpha B. He’s very loving,
intelligent, funny, introspective,
communicative, actually likes women, is romantic, and is devoted to his
wife and kids.
He doesn’t have a lot of money -- he puts his wife and family before
work. He may be, to
take some of the characteristics you mentioned, thinning on top or on
the short side, or
not too handsome, or whatever, may even be shy :-).
Now, some women look at Alpha B and think “No way in hell. Too short,
too bald, too
shy...” But I, and many women I’ve known, look at Alpha B and think, “He
has the
characteristics that are really important to me, he shares my beliefs
and goals; he’s
someone with whom I could be happy. The fact that he likes cuddling is
much likelier to
make me happy than a full head of hair is; the fact that he listens and
really talks to
me is much likelier to make me happy than an extra couple of inches of
height.”>>
You're singing my song, Melissa! I agree with every cell in my body.
The SMART women look for what makes a good all around mate, not what
makes for a good trophy husband. And the smart men do the same. : >
My husband could go bald, impotent and wear dentures and I'd still want
him, because at his essence he is the GOOD GUY that makes me feel warm
and loved. I don't have the big diamond, the vacation lodge, the Lexus,
the Armani suit, etc. But I have a man who puts me first and rubs my
feet when they hurt and doesn't get drunk or screw around.
See, I'm a smart girl, too. ; >
Mir
Mirtika Schultz
grogers wrote: << But
find it disgusting.>>
and master chink wrote: <<i agree flirting is the most despicable
violation of .......>>
What exactly do you guys consider "flirting" that you find it so
disgusting?
What I call flirting--a certain smile, an eager look in the eye, breezy
compliments, lighthearted attention, slight and playful touches on the
arm and lower thigh--why are these disgusting?
I agree with wombn. These are just ways to say "I like you" without
saying it verbally, hence less vulnerabley. The person being flirted
with can return the flirtation or hold back without offending. When
someone flirted with me, it made me fell attractive.
Mir
Melissa O'Brien
>This group should know better than anybody that ALL people aren't in the bars or
>gadding about town. Some of us are at home with our books, computers, old movies,
>good friends, etc. Perhaps we should really be looking at how to connect the
>non-alpha folks in a way that is comfortable for them?
This is a good point, and I see a few posters have taken up the challenge
already. There was a thread a while back about things to do, but what is
it we really do, and where do we really hang out? My $0.02 worth:
The library
Bookstores -- I don’t know about other cities, but Houston has a number of
the huge Barnes & Noble and Bookstop stores that have little cafes and
tables, armchairs, etc. Lots of bookworm types hang out there. A lot of
bookstores also sponsor book discussion groups; in one group here in
Houston, 4 couples met there and got married.
The movies -- on a weeknight or weekend matinees
Evening classes
Museums and galleries
Seminars and lectures; keep an eye on your local paper’s events section
The occasional singles party
Walking in the park
Dance classes
One caution, though: some women are at these places to actually read,
learn, walk, etc., not to meet men. If you’re interested in one of them,
by all means, smile and say hello, and if she seems receptive -- smiles,
responds, has an open disposition, etc., or even if she just seems nervous
-- go for it. But if she glowers, answers in curt monosyllables, and
refuses to look at you, back off. A lot of men seem to be under the
impression that if they’re just persistent enough, she’ll come around; but
if she’s really unreceptive, it’s much more likely to really piss her off.
Like most women, I’ve snuck out of my share of back doors to avoid
relentless romeos.
> My congratulations
>on your successful relationship with a shy guy (does he have a brother? ;) )
Thanks for the congrats. Sorry, no brothers :-).
Melissa O'Brien
>You're singing my song, Melissa! I agree with every cell in my body.
>The SMART women look for what makes a good all around mate, not what
>makes for a good trophy husband. And the smart men do the same. : >
>
>My husband could go bald, impotent and wear dentures and I'd still want
>him, because at his essence he is the GOOD GUY that makes me feel warm
>and loved. I don't have the big diamond, the vacation lodge, the Lexus,
>the Armani suit, etc. But I have a man who puts me first and rubs my
>feet when they hurt and doesn't get drunk or screw around.
>
>See, I'm a smart girl, too. ; >
>
>Mir
Hey, smart women of the Net, unite! :-)
Alex Clark
In article <54cms8$m...@brain.npiec.on.ca>, cko...@freenet.npiec.on.ca
says...
>In <5448qb$8ic...@bbs99.erie.net>, Gordon Rogers wrote:
>: ... and I simply _cannot_ flirt because I
>: find it disgusting.
>
>Explain please, what you mean by disgusting. How is smiling and paying a
>person a genuine compliment a repulsive act?
Let me make a guess. It's disgusting when *someone* *else* flirts with
someone you're attracted to, and the object (if I may use that word
loosely) of your interest returns the favor, and ignores you because
you're not showing enough interest. To those who think flirting is
disgusting because you're disgusted when you see other people doing it:
just remember that it's only other people's flirting that's disgusting.
And it's only disgusting because you're jealous.
Alex Clark