Life and things in general
mario
unconnected peculiarities.
Officially, mine diagnosis is depression, coupled with OCD, and
currently I'm not taking any meds, except occasionally xanax for
anxiety.
Problem is, feeling that I'm so far gone, avoidance of people, and
social anxiety have led me to an isolation.
Most of my friends, if I can call them so... we are on a great distance.
And there is a sense of loneliness, deep and pervasive, with no way of
improving, since I'm very uneasy about forming relationships. Some days
are better then others, but anyway, the path leads nowhere, and the
pefect awareness of that isn't helping, on the contrary, it makes it
worse.
Other part of problem is troubles with overeating, binge eating, which
set in when the stress is overpowering, and make me gain weight. That is
followed by crash dieting... The vicious circle.
Of course, stories of this kind occasionally end up in suicide, but I'm
not that type of character, to carry that out. Surely, thoughts are
lingering in my mind, pretty often, when the psychological pain worsens,
and sometimes, not having the suicide option transforms into a feeling
of being trapped with no end to suffering in sight...
QN
"mario" <g...@net.gr> wrote in message
news:MPG.255a95df2...@news.aioe.org...
[pulling up soapbox]
Well, you need to see a doctor. More specifically you need to see a (god
damn) psychiatrist. Depression is treatable with medications.
Forgive me for saying it, but I envy you for not having schizophrenia.
Miki
I'm in a situation similar to yours, if for other reasons. As a child
and young adult I suffered from Asperger Syndrome, which I now seem to
have grown out of. I was misdiagnosed schizophrenic and put on brain
candy, which _made_ me schizophrenic. For a few years now I've wanted
to die but don't have the courage to follow through with a suicide
attempt. I tend to refer to myself as "lingering like a bad smell."
The key, I've found, is to stop caring. Those who suffer the most are
those who care the most, and you will suffer in proportion to the
amount you care. If you can practise a kind of atheistic Buddhism and
give up attachment to all things, you should be able to find the
relative peace I've found.
There is one other regular poster here who suffers from severe social
anxiety, but I forget what she calls herself these days.
Miki
Miki
>
> - Show quoted text -
Brain candy should be gulped only as a last resort, and all
psychiatrist do is shove it down your throat. I wish to heck I hadn't
been stupid enough to take dependency-forming psychoactive medication
18 years ago, when it wasn't appropriate and I didn't need it. If this
fellow hasn't gotten on the medication merry-go-round yet he should
avoid getting on it as long as he can even halfway function.
Miki
mario
hiding...@example.com says...
> [pulling up soapbox]
>
> Well, you need to see a doctor. More specifically you need to see a (god
> damn) psychiatrist. Depression is treatable with medications.
>
> Forgive me for saying it, but I envy you for not having schizophrenia.
:))
Like I said, it's not for sure, cos' most of mine symptoms could easily
fit into schizophrenia. Not the positive ones, as I (probably) lack
those, but negative for sure.
Although, I'm not so sure about positive ones. Some day, recently, I was
under stress, and heard a brief uniform noise pattern, that I was sure
it couldn't be there, and it was moving in space. Maybe that was
influenced by (other) meds, maybe not. One thing is sure, that drifting
into hallucinations triggered by stress would be nothing surprising.
Therefore, nothing to be envious of. :o
And the psychiatrists, I saw them during the course of my illnesses, if
I remember, it was 4 in total, and each one diagnosed me differently.
Most recent one is depression... One of the older ones was, guess what.
:/
C/p.
"negative (i.e. apathy, lack of emotion, poor or nonexistant social
functioning), and cognitive (disorganized thoughts, difficulty
concentrating and/or following instructions, difficulty completing
tasks, memory problems)"
mario
485871...@o23g2000vbi.googlegroups.com>, dummy....@mikikocic.com
says...
> I'm in a situation similar to yours, if for other reasons. As a child
> and young adult I suffered from Asperger Syndrome, which I now seem to
> have grown out of. I was misdiagnosed schizophrenic and put on brain
> candy, which _made_ me schizophrenic. For a few years now I've wanted
> to die but don't have the courage to follow through with a suicide
> attempt. I tend to refer to myself as "lingering like a bad smell."
One thing that bugs me, is that for one period in my life, I've tried to
live alone, but that didn't work, and the depression was really bad. I
was spending almost weeks alone, with minimal contact to outside world.
Now, when I live with parents again, the situation is also bad, cos' the
family interactions and awkward quarrels are really holding me down. I'd
like to try living alone again, and distance myself from them in as much
as possible.
But, a lot of circumstances are playing against me for the moment.
> The key, I've found, is to stop caring. Those who suffer the most are
> those who care the most, and you will suffer in proportion to the
> amount you care. If you can practise a kind of atheistic Buddhism and
> give up attachment to all things, you should be able to find the
> relative peace I've found.
I was brought up as a Catholic, but most of my beliefs are gone. In the
course of time the Buddhism was also under the scope of my interest, but
in the end, I can't sincerely believe it.
And since there's no sincerity, there can be no point in pretending to
belong to any of the religious movements, although, I'm aware it could
be helpful.
Miki
>
> One thing that bugs me, is that for one period in my life, I've tried to
> live alone, but that didn't work, and the depression was really bad. I
> was spending almost weeks alone, with minimal contact to outside world.
> Now, when I live with parents again, the situation is also bad, cos' the
> family interactions and awkward quarrels are really holding me down. I'd
> like to try living alone again, and distance myself from them in as much
> as possible.
> But, a lot of circumstances are playing against me for the moment.
I live with my parents as well. I've moved out about seven times and
fallen apart every time. Well, the last time I didn't fall apart, I
got tired of my landlady, who had some really silly rules (seven
different garbage bags for seven different kinds of garbage, squeegee
the shower curtain after a shower, etc.). Now I'm in the grip of a
kind of learned helplessness that wouldn't permit me to move out again
even if I wanted to. The things that used to bother me about life with
my parents don't bother me any more because I realize that I can't do
anything about it.
The more you pine for independence the more you will be tormented by
our abusers. Learn to stop caring and nothing will stand in your way
any more.
> I was brought up as a Catholic, but most of my beliefs are gone. In the
> course of time the Buddhism was also under the scope of my interest, but
> in the end, I can't sincerely believe it.
> And since there's no sincerity, there can be no point in pretending to
> belong to any of the religious movements, although, I'm aware it could
> be helpful.
I'm not a Buddhist. If anything, I'm a Catholic apostate. I believe in
the existence of the Christian God but refuse to worship Him because,
in my view, no self-respecting person _should_ worship such an
abusive, manipulative scumbag. But these days I spend next to no time
thinking about God because I've realized that He relishes any time we
devote to thinking about Him, even when we heap invective on Him. The
only way to hurt Him is to put Him totally out of your mind. He's such
a venal egomaniac that He can't abide being disregarded.
Miki
Frodo Baggins
professional look after you.
Gelly
Depression can be very resistant to medication, actually, for a lot of
people... me included.
Gelly
I have severe social anxiety, but not online. Actually I'm fine with
strangers... it's just when there's any hint that a closer friend
relationship might or should be part of the picture. And well, without
going into a long analysis of why this might be, I am not shy with
men, just women. I find men very predictable in how they will act, and
so I'm not scared with them, but women seem very unpredictable to me.
There are other issues too, but like I said I don't feel like writing
out a big analysis of my life history.
Gelly
Hey, Mario.
We have a lot things in common.... the depression and isolation, yo yo
dieting too. For many years I was just diagnosed with treatment-
resistant, chronic severe depression.
Anyway, I can't tell really what kind of person you are, but I will
invite you to chat on Yahoo or Skype if you want. I have/have had some
really good friends online who are far away, but we have great, close
relationships through long conversations online, and even talking
multiple times throughout the day just to see how things are going. If
we don't get along we can just always quit talking. So if you want,
email me at gel...@gmail.com and I will give you my IM identities.
I have some strange feeling you may actually be a female posting under
a male name....
Miki
I was actually referring to Penguin. She uses a different alias these
days but I've forgotten which one.\
Miki
mario
9bb2b3...@m16g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>, gel...@gmail.com says...
> We have a lot things in common.... the depression and isolation, yo yo
> dieting too. For many years I was just diagnosed with treatment-
> resistant, chronic severe depression.
>
> Anyway, I can't tell really what kind of person you are, but I will
> invite you to chat on Yahoo or Skype if you want. I have/have had some
> really good friends online who are far away, but we have great, close
> relationships through long conversations online, and even talking
> multiple times throughout the day just to see how things are going. If
> we don't get along we can just always quit talking. So if you want,
> email me at gel...@gmail.com and I will give you my IM identities.
That would be great Gelly, I'll send you an email.
> I have some strange feeling you may actually be a female posting under
> a male name....
:)))
If only that were true, life would be easier. Maybe. :)
Miki
I find both sexes very predictable, but especially women. Here's a
summary of how women behave:
1. Enter a new environment, get snubbed by other women, feel hurt,
latch onto whatever other loser is also excluded.
2. Eventually get invited into the Inner Circle of those who had
previously excluded them, terminate contact with the loser.
In general, women are always looking for the best "catch." This
applies to platonic social situations as well.
Miki
mario
@m20g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>, dummy....@mikikocic.com says...
> I live with my parents as well. I've moved out about seven times and
> fallen apart every time. Well, the last time I didn't fall apart, I
> got tired of my landlady, who had some really silly rules (seven
> different garbage bags for seven different kinds of garbage, squeegee
> the shower curtain after a shower, etc.). Now I'm in the grip of a
> kind of learned helplessness that wouldn't permit me to move out again
> even if I wanted to. The things that used to bother me about life with
> my parents don't bother me any more because I realize that I can't do
> anything about it.
One of my not so close friends once told me, that he could certainly
live alone, but most of the "meaning" about simple, everyday activities
would be gone, or lose the kind of property it has, in contrast to, when
lived through with the family. Or not exclusively with the family, it
could be any kind of household, and perfect strangers would go by, to
retain the meaningfullness. He also lives with his parents, closely
attached to the family, which has obviously other detrimental issues
involved, i.e not being able to detach fully from his mother and begin
any sort of a healthy relationship.
But, similarly to your experience, living alone makes me also fall
apart, and drift into even heavier depression. As I found out, this
phenomenon is not so rare, in fact it's becoming more common, as the
society tends to evolve towards the goal that produces a lot of lone
individuals. Of course, this goal, whatever is about and if it exists,
is probably set artificially by humans, cos the natural selection runs
its natural path without a goal, and never did favour isolation. At
least not in humans who were always living in groups. :)
> I'm not a Buddhist. If anything, I'm a Catholic apostate. I believe in
> the existence of the Christian God but refuse to worship Him because,
> in my view, no self-respecting person _should_ worship such an
> abusive, manipulative scumbag. But these days I spend next to no time
> thinking about God because I've realized that He relishes any time we
> devote to thinking about Him, even when we heap invective on Him. The
> only way to hurt Him is to put Him totally out of your mind. He's such
> a venal egomaniac that He can't abide being disregarded.
Yes I agree with your discontent about Christian God, who is all about
fear and vengeance and horrors... Perhaps I'm lucky enough to lose the
faith in such God portrayals. :)
Miguel Alberto
alt.discuss.groups.gossip Subject: HMMMMMM LET ME SEE Date:
Tue, Nov 3, 2009, 10:47pm (EST-3) Organization: WebTV
Subscriber
I THINK I GET IT
Let me see if I understand all this..... IF YOU CROSS THE NORTH
KOREAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET 12 YEARS HARD LABOR.
IF YOU CROSS THE IRANIAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU ARE
DETAINED INDEFINITELY.
IF YOU CROSS THE AFGHAN BORDER, YOU GET SHOT.
IF YOU CROSS THE TURKEY BORDER ILLEGALLY, YOU SPEND THE REST OF YOUR
LIFE IN PRISON!
BUT, IF YOU CROSS THE U.S. BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET: A
DRIVERS LICENSE
A SOCIAL SECURITY CARD
WELFARE
FOOD STAMPS
AND, FREE HEALTH CARE?
Oh well sure. That makes perfect sense.
Miki
>
> One of my not so close friends once told me, that he could certainly
> live alone, but most of the "meaning" about simple, everyday activities
> would be gone, or lose the kind of property it has, in contrast to, when
> lived through with the family. Or not exclusively with the family, it
> could be any kind of household, and perfect strangers would go by, to
> retain the meaningfullness. He also lives with his parents, closely
> attached to the family, which has obviously other detrimental issues
> involved, i.e not being able to detach fully from his mother and begin
> any sort of a healthy relationship.
There's a world of difference between living with people and living
with parents. In the natural scheme of things, as evidenced by what
happens among all fauna, once a youngster reaches maturity they leave
their parents and start their own family. Among people, even those who
don't get married and have their own kids will find roommates, common-
law spouses, whatever. Continuing to live with one's parents past
about age 25 is retrograde and detrimental. Parenthood is a psychosis
and, in the eyes of a parent, a child never truly becomes an adult.
Continuing to live under the parental roof only exacerbates the
practical consequences of that psychosis, because the child, in the
parent's eyes, continues to _behave_ like an immature human. (My
situation is even worse because my parents are East European yokels
from subsistence farms whose mentality belongs in Medieval times. My
father has a huge venal need to feel that he is The Father and my
mother is quietly but toxically psychotic.)
> But, similarly to your experience, living alone makes me also fall
> apart, and drift into even heavier depression. As I found out, this
> phenomenon is not so rare, in fact it's becoming more common, as the
> society tends to evolve towards the goal that produces a lot of lone
> individuals. Of course, this goal, whatever is about and if it exists,
> is probably set artificially by humans, cos the natural selection runs
> its natural path without a goal, and never did favour isolation. At
> least not in humans who were always living in groups. :)
You're right that evolution should not be personifiied. It isn't
something that particularly has an identity. Those who anthromorphize
it by speaking, for example, of the "goals of evolution" are making a
mistake. Reproduction among humans continues to occur because women
have kiddie clocks and men need to get their dicks wet. ... Well,
okay, there is also social pressure to reproduce, but that's also
based in mindless biology. There is no goal in human reproduction, no
expected end outcome, no direction, and not even really linearity.
Schizophrenics seldom reproduce and, if there were any direction to
evolution, you'd expect schizophrenia to have died out a long time ago
from the responsible genes not being passed on, but they recur in
every generation. The foundations of human perpetuation are almost
unimaginably stupid, in the sense of not having any component of
intelligence as a driver. But, then, the world itself is totally
disordered and even stupider. One of the accomplishments of science
and philosophy is proving conclusively that any meaning we find in
life is placed there by our own unconscious processes like some
obscene Easter egg. There just ain't nothin' to it.
> Yes I agree with your discontent about Christian God, who is all about
> fear and vengeance and horrors... Perhaps I'm lucky enough to lose the
> faith in such God portrayals. :)
I have an online contact who was in a car accident some years ago that
left him with a permanently broken skull. He has untreatable double
vision from the broken skull, doesn't dare engage in any physical
exercise, and is such a fraidy cat that a photo of me with my tongue
sticking out frightened him. He spends all day sitting on his ass
listening to music like some quadriplegic. Recently, he signed a
contract without reading it or obtaining a copy of it and claims he
doesn't care about the consequences. His life is the life of a
prisoner in solitary confinement. Yet this loser keeps trying to
peddle religion to me. It's always those who have been most abused by
life and who have least to be grateful for who get suckered by the
snake-oil salespeople of the various churches. It is ironic, isn't it?
Miki
Miki
<snip neo-Nazi hate literature>
Miguel, are you really George Bush III posing as a hatred-spewing
lunatic? ... Oh, wait, no member of the Bush family would have to
_pose_ as one of those....
Miki
Gelly
Yeah, well I have it too, although no problems online, just IRL
Miguel Alberto
alt.discuss.groups.gossip, to share my feelings. I feel the same way
about it as you do. I stepped in something and I'm wiping it here.
Re: Life and things in general
Group: alt.support.schizophrenia Date: Wed, Nov 4, 2009, 4:37am (EST-3)
From: dummy....@mikikocic.com (Miki)
Group: alt.support.schizophrenia Date: Wed, Nov 4, 2009, 6:50am From:
gell...@webtv.net (Miguel Alberto)
mario
17f7bb...@l35g2000vba.googlegroups.com>, dummy....@mikikocic.com
says...
> There's a world of difference between living with people and living
> with parents. In the natural scheme of things, as evidenced by what
> happens among all fauna, once a youngster reaches maturity they leave
> their parents and start their own family. Among people, even those who
> don't get married and have their own kids will find roommates, common-
> law spouses, whatever. Continuing to live with one's parents past
> about age 25 is retrograde and detrimental. Parenthood is a psychosis
> and, in the eyes of a parent, a child never truly becomes an adult.
> Continuing to live under the parental roof only exacerbates the
> practical consequences of that psychosis, because the child, in the
> parent's eyes, continues to _behave_ like an immature human. (My
> situation is even worse because my parents are East European yokels
> from subsistence farms whose mentality belongs in Medieval times. My
> father has a huge venal need to feel that he is The Father and my
> mother is quietly but toxically psychotic.)
We have common roots miki... My parents also belong to the past times.
;) But one thing gives me hope about them, because they're traditional
Catholics, no real believers, for the simple fact, that they know almost
nothing of the religios doctrine. They would be offended if you call
them unbelievers, although, technically they're just that.
About living with parents, of course it is detrimental. No healthy
person should be stopped from maturing, meaning, natural process should
proceed if there's no special circumstances like illness.
> There is no goal in human reproduction, no
> expected end outcome, no direction, and not even really linearity.
> Schizophrenics seldom reproduce and, if there were any direction to
> evolution, you'd expect schizophrenia to have died out a long time ago
> from the responsible genes not being passed on, but they recur in
> every generation. The foundations of human perpetuation are almost
> unimaginably stupid, in the sense of not having any component of
> intelligence as a driver. But, then, the world itself is totally
> disordered and even stupider. One of the accomplishments of science
> and philosophy is proving conclusively that any meaning we find in
> life is placed there by our own unconscious processes like some
> obscene Easter egg. There just ain't nothin' to it.
Or maybe by both conscious and unconscious, and since those are seldom
communicating well, there's a great chance, that truly pathological
processes, stemming from neuroses are setting those artificial goals.
> His life is the life of a
> prisoner in solitary confinement. Yet this loser keeps trying to
> peddle religion to me. It's always those who have been most abused by
> life and who have least to be grateful for who get suckered by the
> snake-oil salespeople of the various churches. It is ironic, isn't it?
Dunno, there was one guy I knew superficially, in his middle twenties,
he ended in wheelchair, due to an agressive cancer, but until his death
he regularly attended crurch. One day, after a mass, we had an eye
contact, which I won't forget. The communication was nonverbal, but
revealed pretty much. He knew his condidion was well known, and my look
wasn't so compassionate. Certain kind of sadness or maybe envy could be
seen in his eyes, as he was well sure about his death.
Now, when I look back to this, I'm more certain about my disbelief, cos,
he almost certainly died in confusement, rather unsure about the
nonsense doctrine that's giving false hopes...
Miki
>
> We have common roots miki... My parents also belong to the past times.
> ;) But one thing gives me hope about them, because they're traditional
> Catholics, no real believers, for the simple fact, that they know almost
> nothing of the religios doctrine. They would be offended if you call
> them unbelievers, although, technically they're just that.
I'm not sure what you mean by "traditional Catholics." I always
thought traditional Catholicism was heavily into the catechism and
dogma end of things, mass said in Latin, etc etc. When I think
traditional Catholic I think Cardinal Richelieu.
I flirted with Catholicism briefly but was disappointed in the facile
way it explains _away_ honest doubt instead of making a genuine
attempt to explain anything. Then there was an incident that changed
my mind about what's really going on, and it was unwittingly
reinforced by the guy guiding me through the process.
> About living with parents, of course it is detrimental. No healthy
> person should be stopped from maturing, meaning, natural process should
> proceed if there's no special circumstances like illness.
It's not just that. Parenthood itself is a form of psychosis. Plus,
historically, children have been very poorly treated--subjected to
self-serving physical and sexual abuse, sent to perform farm labour on
neighbouring farms at age 5, terrified from a young age with horror
stories disguised as fairy tales, swaddled as babies (which is like
being in a straitjacket), etc. In much of Antiquity and in Medieval
times a baby crying was believed to be the result of demonic
possession of the baby. It's only in the last century or so that the
humane treatment of children has _begun_ to be practised, and there's
still a long way to go.
> Or maybe by both conscious and unconscious, and since those are seldom
> communicating well, there's a great chance, that truly pathological
> processes, stemming from neuroses are setting those artificial goals.
I find a lot of what I do is motivated by me being basically stuck
here. Who knows how much human "achievement" is the result of a
confinee's restlessness and no more.
> Dunno, there was one guy I knew superficially, in his middle twenties,
> he ended in wheelchair, due to an agressive cancer, but until his death
> he regularly attended crurch. One day, after a mass, we had an eye
> contact, which I won't forget. The communication was nonverbal, but
> revealed pretty much. He knew his condidion was well known, and my look
> wasn't so compassionate. Certain kind of sadness or maybe envy could be
> seen in his eyes, as he was well sure about his death.
> Now, when I look back to this, I'm more certain about my disbelief, cos,
> he almost certainly died in confusement, rather unsure about the
> nonsense doctrine that's giving false hopes...
I knew a dissolute loser who threw away a career in government and
became a street person. (It's very likely that my deader has become
curious about this guy's life and is putting me through the same
experience for the sake of harvesting it.) He was a lifelong atheist,
but in the last two months of his life, as he lay in a hospice bed
dying of hepatitis B, he "found God."
My parents briefly became religious after my uncle died in 1994. That
ended when they spotted the minister saying to an elderly lady: "You
don't need to read the document, just sign it." :D
Miki
Miguel Alberto
alt.discuss.groups.gossip is "normo". Those are supposed to be mentally
healthy people. You people and the best and actually the most mentally
healthy group around.
mario
@k17g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>, dummy....@mikikocic.com says...
> I'm not sure what you mean by "traditional Catholics." I always
> thought traditional Catholicism was heavily into the catechism and
> dogma end of things, mass said in Latin, etc etc. When I think
> traditional Catholic I think Cardinal Richelieu.
>
> I flirted with Catholicism briefly but was disappointed in the facile
> way it explains _away_ honest doubt instead of making a genuine
> attempt to explain anything. Then there was an incident that changed
> my mind about what's really going on, and it was unwittingly
> reinforced by the guy guiding me through the process.
By traditional ones is meant, for example, those who do not read and
analyze Summa Theologiae by Thomas Aquinas, and question premises found
there. Or it can be any other monumental work of theology, but relevant
in terms of aforementioned faith.
That is further clarified, having in mind those who know the credo, to
greater or lesser extent, but mostly foggy, or really don't believe in
all of it.
> It's not just that. Parenthood itself is a form of psychosis. Plus,
> historically, children have been very poorly treated--subjected to
> self-serving physical and sexual abuse, sent to perform farm labour on
> neighbouring farms at age 5, terrified from a young age with horror
> stories disguised as fairy tales, swaddled as babies (which is like
> being in a straitjacket), etc. In much of Antiquity and in Medieval
> times a baby crying was believed to be the result of demonic
> possession of the baby. It's only in the last century or so that the
> humane treatment of children has _begun_ to be practised, and there's
> still a long way to go.
Meaning, we should hatch in eggs like crocodiles, and move from parents
asap. Which is not a bad idea really, although incompatible with long
and slow child development, especially in terms of cognitive abilities.
Economics would need certain adjusting also. Imagine a child of 2yrs
earning his money by working as, say, air traffic controller.
> I knew a dissolute loser who threw away a career in government and
> became a street person. (It's very likely that my deader has become
> curious about this guy's life and is putting me through the same
> experience for the sake of harvesting it.) He was a lifelong atheist,
> but in the last two months of his life, as he lay in a hospice bed
> dying of hepatitis B, he "found God."
>
> My parents briefly became religious after my uncle died in 1994. That
> ended when they spotted the minister saying to an elderly lady: "You
> don't need to read the document, just sign it." :D
That is really interesting, while nearing death, people can invoke or
imagine almost anything to hold on to. Basically, trying to "save"
themselves from inevitable, which is nonexistence, or perhaps hell.
In those peculiar, very distressing times, invoking a supernatural, but
culturally dependent deity is almost a regular occurence. Even I, who
lost the faith, cannot be sure, that in the last moments, I won't become
a "believer", or try to call for help... i.e. from Jesus... Whereas a
hindu person would call for Krishna.
Miki
>
> By traditional ones is meant, for example, those who do not read and
> analyze Summa Theologiae by Thomas Aquinas, and question premises found
> there. Or it can be any other monumental work of theology, but relevant
> in terms of aforementioned faith.
> That is further clarified, having in mind those who know the credo, to
> greater or lesser extent, but mostly foggy, or really don't believe in
> all of it.
Not sure I understand that definition of "traditional," but then I
ain't a Catholic. :)
> Meaning, we should hatch in eggs like crocodiles, and move from parents
> asap. Which is not a bad idea really, although incompatible with long
> and slow child development, especially in terms of cognitive abilities.
> Economics would need certain adjusting also. Imagine a child of 2yrs
> earning his money by working as, say, air traffic controller.
I'm actually in favour of general extinction and nearly ready to join
the Human Extinction Movement. To reproduce at all is to condemn
another living thing to death.
> That is really interesting, while nearing death, people can invoke or
> imagine almost anything to hold on to. Basically, trying to "save"
> themselves from inevitable, which is nonexistence, or perhaps hell.
> In those peculiar, very distressing times, invoking a supernatural, but
> culturally dependent deity is almost a regular occurence. Even I, who
> lost the faith, cannot be sure, that in the last moments, I won't become
> a "believer", or try to call for help... i.e. from Jesus... Whereas a
> hindu person would call for Krishna.
Lots of atheists say "God" as just an expostulation. It's buried too
deeply in our language to be gotten rid of. And, as you say, fear of
death can motivate a person to any kind of abdication of personal
responsibility, even finding or rediscovering religion.
Miki
mario
@k26g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>, dummy....@mikikocic.com says...
> > By traditional ones is meant, for example, those who do not read and
> > analyze Summa Theologiae by Thomas Aquinas, and question premises found
> > there. Or it can be any other monumental work of theology, but relevant
> > in terms of aforementioned faith.
> > That is further clarified, having in mind those who know the credo, to
> > greater or lesser extent, but mostly foggy, or really don't believe in
> > all of it.
>
> Not sure I understand that definition of "traditional," but then I
> ain't a Catholic. :)
Neither do I, mostly because the picture is conflated, after the 2nd
Vatican council, when the progressivists took over.
What was surely a traditional, now has a broader sense, perhaps to
occupy the interest of a broader audience, more moderate, in short, to
attract people with various beliefs, who would otherwise join
Protestants i.e.
> > Meaning, we should hatch in eggs like crocodiles, and move from parents
> > asap. Which is not a bad idea really, although incompatible with long
> > and slow child development, especially in terms of cognitive abilities.
> > Economics would need certain adjusting also. Imagine a child of 2yrs
> > earning his money by working as, say, air traffic controller.
>
> I'm actually in favour of general extinction and nearly ready to join
> the Human Extinction Movement. To reproduce at all is to condemn
> another living thing to death.
Yes, after death, to be finally left alone, from all this lunacy. But
wait, the soul is immortal, and we can easily end up, in a permanent
condition, to which in comparison, the medieval torture chamber feels
like a holiday.
That's the message that lurks beneath major religions.
> Lots of atheists say "God" as just an expostulation. It's buried too
> deeply in our language to be gotten rid of. And, as you say, fear of
> death can motivate a person to any kind of abdication of personal
> responsibility, even finding or rediscovering religion.
Agreed. To put it somewhat differently, in a manner reminiscent of
Wittgenstein, the "term" we call God is "buried" beneath our language,
in relations which cannot be said. So maybe, when life comes to an end,
or in some similar situation, we can only try to find help, or meaning
in such things that are out of reach. That without much doubt don't
exist at all.
Miki
>
> Neither do I, mostly because the picture is conflated, after the 2nd
> Vatican council, when the progressivists took over.
> What was surely a traditional, now has a broader sense, perhaps to
> occupy the interest of a broader audience, more moderate, in short, to
> attract people with various beliefs, who would otherwise join
> Protestants i.e.
Reminds me of the joke about Father O'Malley, who was sore distressed
when he heard a parishioner's daughter had become a Protestant, and
much relieved to find out she'd merely become a prostitute.
I had a Catholic so-called "friend" who seemed much more concerned
about me becoming a Protestant than me becoming a Satanist.
> Yes, after death, to be finally left alone, from all this lunacy. But
> wait, the soul is immortal, and we can easily end up, in a permanent
> condition, to which in comparison, the medieval torture chamber feels
> like a holiday.
> That's the message that lurks beneath major religions.
When you examine the human condition philosophically, you quickly
realize that our conception of immortality is fuzzy and illogical.
There's absolutely no way immortality can exist. Hence the "permanent
condition" you describe is at best wishful thinking and at worst a
silly boogeyman.
> Agreed. To put it somewhat differently, in a manner reminiscent of
> Wittgenstein, the "term" we call God is "buried" beneath our language,
> in relations which cannot be said. So maybe, when life comes to an end,
> or in some similar situation, we can only try to find help, or meaning
> in such things that are out of reach. That without much doubt don't
> exist at all.
I have zero familiarity with analytic philosophy, so you'll have to
elaborate a little more for me.
Miki