Hello everyone...
Chocolate Peanut
I'm considering training to be an Art Therapist with mentally ill people, and I
would like to ask if anyone has ever had a chance to do Art Therapy. And if so,
what did they think of it, and did it help with symptoms? Please feel free to
express your experiences - good or bad, and thank you for your help...:)
Peanut
Bother@forgedpostsanonymous.unorg Cymbal Man Freq.
"Chocolate Peanut" <chocola...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031011125737...@mb-m06.aol.com...
It is just a distraction for the hospital to impose upon the patients that
totally ignores the premise we see that you all are paid enormous sums of money
to babytsit us, when, if you just gave us what you earned, we wouldn't be so
goddam ill still. You are trying to alleviate mental pain of people living in
next to the worst mental conditions available financially. I see no way this can
work. We are suffering a denial of service attack by the gov't, and therapists
are just visitors collecting more money from the gov't than we are, just to
babysit us! In a Freudian slip, I can trace this hostility to my lack of
appropriate allowance money since age 5.
Will
Don'tBo...@ForgedPostsAnonymous.unorg says...
Will
Chocolate Peanut
>It is just a distraction for the hospital to impose upon the patients that
>totally ignores the premise we see that you all are paid enormous sums of
>money
>to babytsit us, when, if you just gave us what you earned, we wouldn't be so
>goddam ill still. You are trying to alleviate mental pain of people living in
>next to the worst mental conditions available financially. I see no way this
>can
>work. We are suffering a denial of service attack by the gov't, and
>therapists
>are just visitors collecting more money from the gov't than we are, just to
>babysit us! In a Freudian slip, I can trace this hostility to my lack of
>appropriate allowance money since age 5.
Ok...thanks for that. I agree with you about the lack of money in Mental
Health services. It is like a cinderella service, compared with say Cardiology,
but funnily enough, art therapy has been added to the bill as a way forward,
where drugs have failed...
Peanut
Bother@forgedpostsanonymous.unorg Cymbal Man Freq.
entered under the category of "an enigma wrapped inside of a riddle". I am not
all that artistically inclined in traditional arts' sense. Most of the art
therapy offered I found no interest in for myself. Others who are on medications
that gives them an IQ of sub-50, find art the only other thing offered too them
as far as a structured environment besides talk therapy every morning. It isn't
like we all go to school with 6 course subjects being taught to us anymore. We
are all surrounded by losers like ourselves, and our self-esteem has cratored
beyond normaloes range of depth of understanding. I'm a college graduate (2 yrs
+ 1 yr), but after school was done, I had no job, and no friends. I rotted for a
couple of years before I was enrolled in Day Treatment with a 100 mile round
trip by Taxi every weekday morning to get there. I was so zonked out by meds, I
didn't see any future for myself anymore...I still don't even though I'm not on
meds.
Chocolate Peanut
>I think the art you'll run across the most among the mentally ill could be
>entered under the category of "an enigma wrapped inside of a riddle". I am
>not
>all that artistically inclined in traditional arts' sense.
That's the beauty of art therapy, who don't need to be good at art. Imagine
looking at a painting done by a child - you could tell by the use of line and
colour what the child was feeling, and how angry they were, and possibly who
they were angry with....
>Most of the art
>therapy offered I found no interest in for myself. Others who are on
>medications
>that gives them an IQ of sub-50, find art the only other thing offered too
>them
>as far as a structured environment
>besides talk therapy every morning.
It doesn't matter what the IQ is...it's just another means of expression.
Nobody will give it marks out of ten. They will only try to read it and help
you come to terms with whatever is revealed by the painting.
>It isn't
>like we all go to school with 6 course subjects being taught to us anymore.
>We
>are all surrounded by losers like ourselves, and our self-esteem has cratored
>beyond normaloes range of depth of
>understanding. I'm a college graduate (2 yrs
>+ 1 yr), but after school was done, I had no job, and no friends. I rotted
>for a couple of years before I was enrolled in Day Treatment with a 100 mile
round
>trip by Taxi every weekday morning to get there.
Please don't give up, from your post you have a lot to offer, but it isn't
channelled.
>I was so zonked out by meds, I
>didn't see any future for myself anymore...I still don't even though I'm not
>on
>meds.
Maybe you need a plan. Work out what 'you' want to do with your days, and then
get some help to put that into action.
Peanut
Chocolate Peanut
>When I was in a military psych ward for evaluation, they made me attend all
>the
>therapies. I hated every one of them, and I would used, according to the
>staff,
>"somatic excuses" to try to get out of going to them.
That's the worse thing about being in hospital -being told what to do, and
when. I remember the last time I had an operation (I live in the UK), and the
day after I just wanted to stay in bed, but the nurse said, "No, get up and get
your breakfast, like everyone else"...
>A nurse once asked me why I
>didn't like to go the 'therapies' sessions and I told her the 'therapies'
>were
>"dumb-ass"! And they wrote that little comment down in my file. Let see, I
>didn't
>like 'group therapy' because I'm a loner and don't like to talk.
Fair enough, me neither...I'm a one to one person...
>Physical therapy
>sucked due to me not liking sports,
Hehe...again, quite common...
>Art therapy was not very appealing to me, I am not very good at art, but do I
>like to doodle some, they said that wasn't the approved art therapy project.
Ahh..if that had been my class, I would have let you doodle. A lot can be said
in a doodle. Did you know that not everyone doodles when they are on the
phone?? I always thought they did.
You can do art therapy on your own at home you know, Chesucat...it's very
calming..:)
Peanut
damo...@webtv.net
I don't consider myself cynical. I really don't. Amusing perhaps.
Playful. Exhuberent at times.
Not cynical.
Art theropy, where you supposedly express all this anger and negativity
and then it gets "decoded" as to what was "meant" is just hogwash.
Art is just art.
I love "eye candy". Very visual person, I suspect. I have a window where
I keep pretty glass things.
My refrigerator door is a piece of art, to me.
My pantry door is another collection of various papers, pictures from
magazines perhaps, or advertisements, menus from a restaurant, various
memorabilia from local events.....
And I'm an "involved" musician.
The only value in art is the involvement.
I really can't accept you work things out through art, or the psycho
babble fantasy talk that comes from evaluating it.
On the level where "art" is an involvement for a person its good for the
person. Thats all.
Art can be buying lampshades and redesigning them with various craft
store supplies. Or reshaping some other commercial product. I made blank
books for a while. Hand bound the pages and all. Did a good juob. It led
nowhere. Couldn't sell a one but to friends.
I can do this one "trick" here and I believe I enjoy doing it. It amuses
me. And, possibly, it provides a path. Crazy folks often don't have
paths except the being crazy path. Having an artistic involvement
provides a structure for those who can find involvement with it.
Outside of that , I think picking the work apart looking for what it
"really" means is rediculous. I think doing that is making love to
illness instead of making love to health.
Provide an image of health. Thats what will work. I believe this. I
believe way too much time is spent making love to the illness.
I play guitar.
Thats my two cents, peanut.
Play, is a higher brain function, in my opinion, and it is the source of
creativity.
Damo
Bother@forgedpostsanonymous.unorg Cymbal Man Freq.
argument-type of musical monologue where I seemed to be playing a parent & child
bickering on each half of the keyboard (they could be two different
instruments), but this sounded like an arguement in the Queens Castle. About a
week later, the Queen unexpectedly made a trip to the USA and to the County I
lived in. I think I made some musical bait, but do I really want to try it
again?
Chocolate Peanut
>Hello Peanut.
Hello Damo..:)
>I don't consider myself cynical. I really don't. Amusing perhaps.
>Playful. Exhuberent at times.
>Not cynical.
Good!
>Art theropy, where you supposedly express all this anger and negativity
>and then it gets "decoded" as to what was "meant" is just hogwash.
>Art is just art.
Have you heard of Edvard Munch, a Norwegian painter, who was the forerunner of
Expressionism? Check him out here:
http://www.art4net.com/MUNCH.html
Art is usually what the artist is feeling inside, good or bad. Although, what a
pile of bricks in the Tate Gallery says, I've no idea! :)
>I love "eye candy". Very visual person, I suspect. I have a window where
>I keep pretty glass things.
It's good that you have things you love around you.
>My refrigerator door is a piece of art, to me.
Is it...why?
>And I'm an "involved" musician.
>The only value in art is the involvement.
Yes, but you can be 'involved' by just looking at art, and being moved by it.
>I really can't accept you work things out through art, or the psycho
>babble fantasy talk that comes from evaluating it.
Look at Munchs work...you can see all the hurt he has suffered through the many
deaths he had in his early life.
>On the level where "art" is an involvement for a person its good for the
>person. Thats all.
Exactly...
>Art can be buying lampshades and redesigning them with various craft
>store supplies. Or reshaping some other commercial product. I made blank
>books for a while. Hand bound the pages and all. Did a good juob. It led
>nowhere. Couldn't sell a one but to friends.
If you enjoyed the experience of making them, them it 'led' to your fulfilment
at the time, which was priceless...
>I think picking the work apart looking for what it
>"really" means is rediculous. I think doing that is making love to
>illness instead of making love to health.
I can see where you are going with this, Damo, as I think that talking about
problems doesn't really solve them either, that's why I like art therapy, as
the painting does the talking for you, but in a subconsious way. You may not
even be aware of the changes until you realize that you feel better.
>I play guitar.
>Thats my two cents, peanut.
>Play, is a higher brain function, in my opinion, and it is the source of
>creativity.
For some people, art is play...obviously is you don't like art you are not
going to make music with it. But, yes, play is very important to the soul.
Play us a tune, Damo...:)
Peanut
Miki Kocic
Chocolate Peanut wrote:
> That's the beauty of art therapy, who don't need to be good at art. Imagine
> looking at a painting done by a child - you could tell by the use of line and
> colour what the child was feeling, and how angry they were, and possibly who
> they were angry with....
Hi CP. My taste runs to chocolate almonds, but diabetes makes them a
very rare treat.
Your message makes it sound as if art therapy is a form of art critique.
Is it necessary for the patient to be unskilled in art, or can he
actually have some ability and practice at it? I.e., to take an extreme
example, if Kurt Vonnegut came to you with his latest novel (well, I
think he's deceased, but back when he was alive) could you treat any
problems he was having by interpreting the novel and guiding him in his
writing?
Miki
Chocolate Peanut
>Hi CP. My taste runs to chocolate almonds, but diabetes makes them a
>very rare treat.
Hi Miki...chocolate almonds eh...I'm afraid I'm only a humble peanut...:)
>Your message makes it sound as if art therapy is a form of art critique.
No it's not a form of art critique - nothing like it..
> Is it necessary for the patient to be unskilled in art, or can he
>actually have some ability and practice at it?
Both...it doesn't matter which.
>I.e., to take an extreme
>example, if Kurt Vonnegut came to you with his latest novel (well, I
>think he's deceased, but back when he was alive) could you treat any
>problems he was having by interpreting the novel and guiding him in his
>writing?
Er...no..:) Firstly it's writing and not painting, and secondly, I haven't been
to college yet! I'm only thinking of training for the job...:)
Peanut
Bother@forgedpostsanonymous.unorg Cymbal Man Freq.
had just stirred in the butter, milk and cheese sauce. When I got done stirring,
all the macaroni was lying in heaps on one side of the pan, but a lone macaroni
was standing watch over the rest of them. "Last One Standing".
So, why would you want to skip college to take a job in a psych ward? Do you
have other plans available? Or is the psych ward the largest employer in your
town? Oh, you have to finish up THIS years' schooling first, and what you are
looking for is an alternative to Candy Striping at the Hospital?.
As they say in films to the actor with no method, "What is your motivation?"
Chocolate Peanut
>I think one of my early photos of the late 1980's was of a pan of macaroni. I
>had just stirred in the butter, milk and cheese sauce. When I got done
>stirring,
>all the macaroni was lying in heaps on one side of the pan, but a lone
>macaroni
>was standing watch over the rest of them. "Last One Standing".
Ok...:)
>So, why would you want to skip college to take a job in a psych ward?
Are you talking to me? I never know as you don't put.."Peanut said...:)
If you are talking to me...I do work on a psych ward...I'm a medical secretary
to a psychiatrist in a large teaching hospital in England. But, I have a
background in art and design, and would like to join the two up. I would be a
'mature student'...
>Do you
>have other plans available? Or is the psych ward the largest employer in your
>town?
Funnily enough it is! As yet I don't have a plan B.
>Oh, you have to finish up THIS years' schooling first, and what you are
>looking for is an alternative to Candy Striping at the Hospital?.
Hey, I wish I was that young!..:)
>As they say in films to the actor with no method, "What is your motivation?"
For some reason I have a fascination with schizophrenia, and I have a previous
personal history of depression, and put with an interest in art...art
therapy...:)
Peanut
strife
when you combine te two?
-strife
"Cymbal Man Freq." <Don't Bot...@ForgedPostsAnonymous.unorg> wrote in
message news:QV2ib.27006$Hs.1...@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
strife
the windows of the house... like people peeking in. This didn't bother my
wife at all. We have an old house though, and it somehow fit.
-strife
<damo...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:3929-3F8...@storefull-2196.public.lawson.webtv.net...
Chocolate Peanut
>I've done art. I've done therapy. Never had art therapy, though.What is it
>when you combine te two?
Hi Strife...art therapy isn't an exact science, so can't be defined as such.
It's just a way fo reaching emotions through artwork and recognising feelings.
It's a healing process. The end result could be a stronger identity and self
knowledge. It's particulary good it the patient doesn't speak English or is
shy. It is a way of communicating when communication wouldn't exist. It is
self-expression, and it builds self-esteem. HTH..:)
Peanut
ramdomoutput
chocola...@aol.com (Chocolate Peanut) writes:
>Er...no..:) Firstly it's writing and not painting, and secondly, I haven't
>been
>to college yet! I'm only thinking of training for the job...:)
>
>Peanut
below are a couple of sites that might give you an idea as the credentials
and certifications that you need to consider obtaining.
no one is going to let you fool around in their patients heads without some
formal training in the art of therapy. (malpractice insurance)
http://www.narsadartworks.org/
http://www.ucpsychrehab.org/programs/awakenings/
if you can find a link to the "living musuem", it is worth a looksee.
i saw an hbo special about some of the people that created that art.
we have their 2003 calender.
good luck
bill
Chocolate Peanut
>below are a couple of sites that might give you an idea as the credentials
>and certifications that you need to consider obtaining.
>no one is going to let you fool around in their patients heads without some
>formal training in the art of therapy. (malpractice insurance)
>
>http://www.narsadartworks.org/
>
>http://www.ucpsychrehab.org/programs/awakenings/
>
>if you can find a link to the "living musuem", it is worth a looksee.
>i saw an hbo special about some of the people that created that art.
>
>we have their 2003 calender.
>
>good luck
Thank you, Bill...that was very kind of you..:)
Peanut
Katie
<damo...@webtv.net> a écrit dans le message de news:
3929-3F8...@storefull-2196.public.lawson.webtv.net...
> Hello Peanut.
> I don't consider myself cynical. I really don't. Amusing perhaps.
> Playful. Exhuberent at times.
> Not cynical.
>
> Art theropy, where you supposedly express all this anger and negativity
> and then it gets "decoded" as to what was "meant" is just hogwash.
> Art is just art.
I don't agree exactly. I have no painting skill, but I fantasize being able
to paint a picture of the pain I feel from FMS, so that maybe someone would
finally understand and maybe even care. As it is, nobody wants to hear about
what it feels like. However, it would make an awful picture nobody, not even
me, would want to hang in their living room.
>
> I love "eye candy". Very visual person, I suspect. I have a window where
> I keep pretty glass things.
>
> My refrigerator door is a piece of art, to me.
>
> My pantry door is another collection of various papers, pictures from
> magazines perhaps, or advertisements, menus from a restaurant, various
> memorabilia from local events.....
I call that art too. One thing I did with photoshop... a picture of me as a
kid with superimposed writing and some misty colors... To me that was art
therapy. I didn't try to pick it apart or analyze or try to understand. I
just know that on some level it was honoring the 9-year-old me.
>
> And I'm an "involved" musician.
> The only value in art is the involvement.
> I really can't accept you work things out through art, or the psycho
> babble fantasy talk that comes from evaluating it.
>
> On the level where "art" is an involvement for a person its good for the
> person. Thats all.
>
> Art can be buying lampshades and redesigning them with various craft
> store supplies. Or reshaping some other commercial product. I made blank
> books for a while. Hand bound the pages and all. Did a good juob. It led
> nowhere. Couldn't sell a one but to friends.
that sounds like fun. I did that too, except I printed stuff on the blank
pages and made a book of some poems I wrote.
>
> I can do this one "trick" here and I believe I enjoy doing it. It amuses
> me. And, possibly, it provides a path. Crazy folks often don't have
> paths except the being crazy path. Having an artistic involvement
> provides a structure for those who can find involvement with it.
>
"except the being crazy path"... I like that. At first I read: "except the
big crazy path". I've been torturing myself over what my path is supposed to
be - I'd really like to know why it contains so much suffering.
> Outside of that , I think picking the work apart looking for what it
> "really" means is rediculous. I think doing that is making love to
> illness instead of making love to health.
>
> Provide an image of health. Thats what will work. I believe this. I
> believe way too much time is spent making love to the illness.
I could see how a person could do both. In my daily writing I've begun to
let in the light, little by little.
>
> I play guitar.
>
> Thats my two cents, peanut.
>
> Play, is a higher brain function, in my opinion, and it is the source of
> creativity.
>
I believe you're right.
Katie
> Damo
>
Chocolate Peanut
>I have no painting skill, but I fantasize being able
>to paint a picture of the pain I feel from FMS, so that maybe someone would
>finally understand and maybe even care.
Hi Katie...the thing about art therapy, is that you can do it on your own. It
doesn't need 'decoding'. It's just the act of getting your feeling out,
instead of bottling them up...try it..
>As it is, nobody wants to hear about
>what it feels like. However, it would make an awful picture nobody, not even
>me, would want to hang in their living room.
Your doctor could refer you to an art therapist if you like, but you need to
let him know that, as it's not the first thing doctors think of when they see
you. Actually, here in the UK, I would say that not many doctors even know it
exists. And psychiatrists here tend to see if as 'taking the patient away from
drug therapy'.
>One thing I did with photoshop... a picture of me as a
>kid with superimposed writing and some misty colors... To me that was art
>therapy. I didn't try to pick it apart or analyze or try to understand. I
>just know that on some level it was honoring the 9-year-old me.
You don't need 'any' skill to do art therapy..nobody will judge your art
skills..
Peanut
Ioannis
[snip]
> I don't agree exactly. I have no painting skill, but I fantasize being able
> to paint a picture of the pain I feel from FMS, so that maybe someone would
> finally understand and maybe even care. As it is, nobody wants to hear about
> what it feels like. However, it would make an awful picture nobody, not even
> me, would want to hang in their living room.
The problem with modern society, today, is that if you do that, nobody
will want to see your art, if it doesn't carry at least some joyful
message.
People are so full of it, that when they look at "art", they don't
really want to see sad or depressing ideas engraved in the whatever
canvas. People want to dream of ever better worlds, where beauty reigns
supreme, so they can forget their own deep seated problems. That's the
hype behind most modern art. It's _because_ people don't care, that most
modern art is crap.
On the other hand, depressing, sad and schizophrenic art, such as some
of my paintings:
<http://users.forthnet.gr/ath/jgal/paintings/>
and particularly the last two ones, nobody wants to hang in their living
room. My girlfriend finds the last painting fantastic, yet she doesn't
want to hang it in our living room, although I've expressely stated to
her that it approximates pretty well my final condition.
Of course, she cares, but her words were: "Yes, it's a fantastic
painting, but I _don't want to see THAT_ when I wake up every
morning..."
I don't blame her, of course, cause she really cannot identify with it
perfectly.
There are people who have managed to break through the barrier of
financially making it into the realm of paranoid and schizophrenic
surrealism, such as Hans Rudi Giger:
<http://www.hrgiger.com>
Giger is probably the most disturbed artist in existence today. It is
worth noting that he has won an Oscar for the original 1979 movie
"Alien" (he was the designer of the creature), as well as was highly
esteemed by even Salvador Dali, with whom he had met, prior to Dali's
death.
Giger's soul is the perfect hell. It shows from his paintings, pretty
well. However, only weirdos, Neo-Nazis and extreme elements buy his art.
Nevertheless, it proves a good point: That if you do something well, no
matter how disturbed your soul may be, you can make money from it. My
paintings are of course nowehere close to the hell of Giger, yet they
are the product of my own custom made hell.
Ideally, I would like to earn a living from painting. It is, however, a
very difficult task, given that even Giger's work took very long to be
accepted into the realms of modern surrealism.
Doing art, (particularly art as it relates to exhausting derranged
psychology), is very therapeutic. I'll only tell you for example, that
when I paint, I don't even want to smoke. Just paint, forever.
[snip]
> I call that art too. One thing I did with photoshop... a picture of me as a
> kid with superimposed writing and some misty colors... To me that was art
> therapy. I didn't try to pick it apart or analyze or try to understand. I
> just know that on some level it was honoring the 9-year-old me.
[snip]
My suggestion is to try to do some art, whether it be painting,
Photoshop or writing. It really fixes lots of traumas from sz. Do it for
its own sake.
On the other hand, if you want to make money from it, you have to take
into account what I said in the first paragraph.
> Katie
--
Ioannis
http://users.forthnet.gr/ath/jgal/
___________________________________________
Eventually, _everything_ is understandable.
Katie
better than yours. I think you should be able to find a market other than
neo nazis.
But... so much for art therapy. I mean, if this hasn't helped you be
happier, if your soul is still in hell... so much for art therapy is all I
can say.
K.
"Ioannis" <morp...@olympus.mons> a ecrit dans le message de news:
3F8EFF...@olympus.mons...
Ioannis
>
> Your work is impressive. I don't really see how Giger's should be considered
> better than yours. I think you should be able to find a market other than
> neo nazis.
Thank you Katie. I ought to keep this article number. My work compared
to Giger's and found not wanting. :*)
> But... so much for art therapy. I mean, if this hasn't helped you be
> happier, if your soul is still in hell... so much for art therapy is all I
> can say.
I can assure you, if I was making good money selling my paintings, many
of my problems would be solved, pronto.
> K.
[snip]
Chocolate Peanut
>The problem with modern society, today, is that if you do that, nobody
>will want to see your art, if it doesn't carry at least some joyful
>message.
That's not what art therapy is about...
>People are so full of it, that when they look at "art", they don't
>really want to see sad or depressing ideas engraved in the whatever
>canvas.
You have to paint what you have to paint...
>People want to dream of ever better worlds, where beauty reigns
>supreme, so they can forget their own deep seated problems. That's the
>hype behind most modern art. It's _because_ people don't care, that most
>modern art is crap.
Stop worrying about what other people think of art...try not to mix up
commercial art with art therapy.
>On the other hand, depressing, sad and schizophrenic art, such as some
>of my paintings:
>
><http://users.forthnet.gr/ath/jgal/paintings/>
Fascinating website, Loannis...:)
Peanut
Chocolate Peanut
>Your work is impressive. I don't really see how Giger's should be considered
>better than yours. I think you should be able to find a market other than
>neo nazis.
I agree...
>But... so much for art therapy. I mean, if this hasn't helped you be
>happier, if your soul is still in hell... so much for art therapy is all I
>can say.
Art therapy isn't a cure...it's a therapy...it helps that all..
Peanut
Katie
"Chocolate Peanut" <chocola...@aol.com> a écrit dans le message de
news: 20031016100956...@mb-m04.aol.com...
Thanks for your message Peanut, but for the kind of paintings I would have
the impulse to do of what FMS feels like, I definitely would need skill. One
of the paintings would be a starkly realistic picture of a woman standing at
the sink washing dishes and talking to people nearby, her face looks tired
but wears a pleasant, if wan smile. There is a knife stuck in the middle of
her upper back, and no one else in the picture seems to see it.
Another picture would be of the same woman walking her dog. Once again there
are several people passing by. They seem to think nothing of the fact that
the woman is wearing barbed wire bound tightly around her body and there is
evidence of blood and infection.
I understand your enthusiasm for art therapy and I believe you when you say
it helps. At best it is part of a process for healing. For mental patients
it is too often considered an obligation though. And frustrating at that. I
remember in the hospital when they'd force me to go to occupational therapy.
I was drugged up and had no inspiration at all. I hardly had the energy to
lift my arm in order to drink a cup of tea. And I had these patronizing
people around me ready to show me how to do batik or pottery, when what I
needed to do was cry. That only made me feel more inferior and awful. All
these helpful happy people around me were so superior to me.
I suppose it would have helped if someone had talked to me about how I
really felt and suggested a way I could express that, explained that I
needed to respect myself....don't know. It's too late now.
K.
K.
> Peanut
damo...@webtv.net
The problem with modern society, today, is that if you do that, nobody
will want to see your art, if it doesn't carry at least some joyful
message.
(Damodara)
I looked at your paintings once a long time ago and I can remember it
clearly and your work. That says something about the impact of your art.
I like it.
Alot.
And I enjoyed looking the pics from the present era you just posted.
I didn't see them last time.
I could hang many, if not most of your work in my living room.
Your use of color alone would justify it.
You are deffinately good and clearly have something going.
I have trouble with some criticism I receive from some of my closer
"supporters".
One is " Don't sing".
Not singing, to me, is like cutting off a piece of what I see as the
totality.
I have always seen the guitar as...
ahem....
A rthyme instrument intended to be accompaniment to the human voice.
WHY should I cut off one aspect of my music?
Anyway......go easy on your friend.
And....
I see my guitar and all things related to my art as being inviolable. Of
all things, my guitar playing is mine. And I vigorously defend against
all compromise. It may be the only "pure mine" thing I have.
I listen to criticism, I listen to advice, I weigh what I hear and I
make a decision if I feel one is appropriate.
In fact I have gone over to guitar heavy from voice heavy. My guitar is
the real vehicle these days. In my youth it was voice. I responded to
criticism. I saw its vsalidity. But that was my artistic consideration.
And the "friend talk" simply gave me awareness.
Yet......she still thinks I'm wrong.
What was it..??
Oh yeah, "Behind every sucessful man iks a women telling him that he's
wrong"
Who said that?
You do real good work Loanis.
Damo
Chocolate Peanut
>Thanks for your message Peanut, but for the kind of paintings I would have
>the impulse to do of what FMS feels like, I definitely would need skill.
No you wouldn't...:)
>One
>of the paintings would be a starkly realistic picture of a woman standing at
>the sink washing dishes and talking to people nearby, her face looks tired
>but wears a pleasant, if wan smile. There is a knife stuck in the middle of
>her upper back, and no one else in the picture seems to see it.
Imagine the same painting done by a six year old...would you be able to read
it? Except for the realistic bit, it would be the same..
>Another picture would be of the same woman walking her dog. Once again there
>are several people passing by. They seem to think nothing of the fact that
>the woman is wearing barbed wire bound tightly around her body and there is
evidence of blood and infection.
I'm no expert, but they both involve a women and violence...who is the women,
Katie? Is it you or your mother??
>I understand your enthusiasm for art therapy and I believe you when you say
>it helps. At best it is part of a process for healing. For mental patients
>it is too often considered an obligation though. And frustrating at that.
That's a shame.
>I
>remember in the hospital when they'd force me to go to occupational therapy.
>I was drugged up and had no inspiration at all. I hardly had the energy to
>lift my arm in order to drink a cup of tea. And I had these patronizing
>people around me ready to show me
>how to do batik or pottery, when what I
>needed to do was cry. That only made me feel more inferior and awful. All
>these helpful happy people around me were so superior to me.
I have no experience of OT myself, but I can appreciate how awful it must of
seemed to you. The kind of art therapy I want to do, is after the patient has
left hospital and they are trying to recover...I suppose those patients have
decided to do art therapy, and are not just told to do it. Thank you for
sharing that with me, and I will remember it when I am looking for a job..
>I suppose it would have helped if someone had talked to me about how I
>really felt and suggested a way I could express that, explained that I
>needed to respect myself....don't know. It's too late now.
It would of helped a lot, Katie...take care..:)
Peanut
Ioannis
[snip]
Whoa! Damo, Katie and Peanut endorse my art. A good day lies ahead :*)
I haven't heard any of your music Damo, but in your case it's probably
experience that counts. Many older musicians didn't have any formal
training in schools or universities, yet made it through big time.
Being good at something is hard. It takes a lot of work and patience.
Two traits that some of us cannot acquire this easily, in view of our
conditions.
In general I'd say that creativity in sz is a VERY big way out. Whether
it be music or painting or writing, even if it's therapeutic only, it
counts and it provides for soul food.
Virtually everybody has something new to say. The message is what's
important, many times more than the way of presenting this message.
Personally, I find "beautiful" paintings to be quite damaging to the sz
soul. Damaging because they lie to you or try to pass a message of
beauty and/or hope, where there is little or none.
Unfortunatelly internal ugliness increases. This is nobody's fault in
particular. The blame lies with parents and authorities, usually.
So, if you have to paint, paint "ugliness" in a "beautiful" way, like I
do. Paint the Truth.
Thanks for the encouraging words everyone :*)
> Damo
Katie
> >From: "Katie"
>
> >Thanks for your message Peanut, but for the kind of paintings I would
have
> >the impulse to do of what FMS feels like, I definitely would need skill.
>
> No you wouldn't...:)
>
> >One
> >of the paintings would be a starkly realistic picture of a woman standing
at
> >the sink washing dishes and talking to people nearby, her face looks
tired
> >but wears a pleasant, if wan smile. There is a knife stuck in the middle
of
> >her upper back, and no one else in the picture seems to see it.
>
> Imagine the same painting done by a six year old...would you be able to
read
> it? Except for the realistic bit, it would be the same..
You're right. I should at least give it a try.
>
> >Another picture would be of the same woman walking her dog. Once again
there
> >are several people passing by. They seem to think nothing of the fact
that
> >the woman is wearing barbed wire bound tightly around her body and there
is
> evidence of blood and infection.
>
> I'm no expert, but they both involve a women and violence...who is the
women,
> Katie? Is it you or your mother??
It's me, and fellow fibromyalgia sufferers. As I mentioned in an earlier
post, I want to show people what fibromyalgia feels like. May be my mother
too. She obviously is in pain although she doesn't have a diagnosis of
fibro.
>
> >I understand your enthusiasm for art therapy and I believe you when you
say
> >it helps. At best it is part of a process for healing. For mental
patients
> >it is too often considered an obligation though. And frustrating at that.
>
> That's a shame.
>
> >I
> >remember in the hospital when they'd force me to go to occupational
therapy.
> >I was drugged up and had no inspiration at all. I hardly had the energy
to
> >lift my arm in order to drink a cup of tea. And I had these patronizing
> >people around me ready to show me
> >how to do batik or pottery, when what I
> >needed to do was cry. That only made me feel more inferior and awful. All
> >these helpful happy people around me were so superior to me.
>
> I have no experience of OT myself, but I can appreciate how awful it must
of
> seemed to you. The kind of art therapy I want to do, is after the patient
has
> left hospital and they are trying to recover...I suppose those patients
have
> decided to do art therapy, and are not just told to do it. Thank you for
> sharing that with me, and I will remember it when I am looking for a job..
I'm glad it interested you. That's a good sign if you are going to give art
therapy. I'm all for art therapy really. The good it can do depends mostly
on the skill of the therapist probably.
good luck to you in your endeavours
Katie
Chocolate Peanut
>> I'm no expert, but they both involve a women and violence...who is the
>women,
>> Katie? Is it you or your mother??
>It's me, and fellow fibromyalgia sufferers. As I mentioned in an earlier
>post, I want to show people what fibromyalgia feels like. May be my mother
>too. She obviously is in pain although she doesn't have a diagnosis of
>fibro.
I can feel your pain, Katie...I can also feel your anger. It looks to me that
you feel that nobody cares how much pain you are in; that nobody even sees you
anymore, and that you try your best to be pleasant to other people when perhaps
they are being two faced about your problem and 'stabbing you in the
back'...possibly??
The barked wire around your body, could indicate that you don't want anyone to
get close to you...so people don't...but, really you do and then you get upset
because they don't...again possibly??
>I'm glad it interested you. That's a good sign if you are going to give art
>therapy. I'm all for art therapy really. The good it can do depends mostly
>on the skill of the therapist probably.
From what you said, it sounds like there are a few bad therapists about..
>good luck to you in your endeavours
Thanks, Katie, and good luck in yours..:)
Peanut
Katie
> >From: "Katie"
>
> >> I'm no expert, but they both involve a women and violence...who is the
> >women,
> >> Katie? Is it you or your mother??
>
> >It's me, and fellow fibromyalgia sufferers. As I mentioned in an earlier
> >post, I want to show people what fibromyalgia feels like. May be my
mother
> >too. She obviously is in pain although she doesn't have a diagnosis of
> >fibro.
>
> I can feel your pain, Katie...I can also feel your anger. It looks to me
that
> you feel that nobody cares how much pain you are in; that nobody even sees
you
> anymore, and that you try your best to be pleasant to other people when
perhaps
> they are being two faced about your problem and 'stabbing you in the
> back'...possibly??
>
> The barked wire around your body, could indicate that you don't want
anyone to
> get close to you...so people don't...but, really you do and then you get
upset
> because they don't...again possibly??
Good work Peanut. Yes, I do feel stabbed in the back. As for the barbed wire
protecting me in some way, I had not thought of that! Thanks for the
insight. Fibromyalgia is considered an "invisible" illness. But when you
have it, it's hard to grasp that other people don't see it.
I have often thought that some people have barbed wire fences around them.
You can see in, but if you try to get in, you get badly scraped. Other
people have brick walls around them. There's no question of even trying to
get in, there's nothing you can see that will even attract you. Those are
the "normal" ones.
K.
Chocolate Peanut
>Good work Peanut.
Thanks...:)
>Yes, I do feel stabbed in the back. As for the barbed wire
>protecting me in some way, I had not thought of that! Thanks for the
>insight. Fibromyalgia is considered an "invisible" illness. But when you
>have it, it's hard to grasp that other people don't see it.
Depression has the same effect on people...most normal people can ignore the
fact, if they can't see it...
>I have often thought that some people have barbed wire fences around them.
>You can see in, but if you try to get in, you get badly scraped. Other
>people have brick walls around them. There's no question of even trying to
>get in, there's nothing you can see that will even attract you. Those are
>the "normal" ones.
Yeah, I think we all have 'a wall', but it's how big you build it, I think.
Peanut
mad mitch
"Ioannis" <morp...@olympus.mons> wrote in message
news:3F8FBD...@olympus.mons...
> Thank you Katie. I ought to keep this article number. My work compared
> to Giger's and found not wanting. :*)
>
> > But... so much for art therapy. I mean, if this hasn't helped you be
> > happier, if your soul is still in hell... so much for art therapy is all
I
> > can say.
>
> I can assure you, if I was making good money selling my paintings, many
> of my problems would be solved, pronto.
To be honest Ioannis, your art is 10 times better than Giger. I found Giger
to be a bit "manufactured" & "contrived" whereas yours is much more natural.
I have a proposition. I have found 60 art galleries/dealers in the UK.
How about I send each thumb nails of your paintings with 2-3 full views of
my favrittes?
What is the point of being recognized after you are dead? You might as well
go the whole hog now.
If Giger is as good and as famous as he is, then you could be more than
that!
If you want to give it a go
Then let me know
and I'm sure a show
of your art will be forthcoming.
OK a bit of ink on my printer and a few stamps. It's worth it I think.
You really should get some kind of recognition.
Oh - and Bach sends his best regards. You are right. It is not possible to
believe there is nothing once you have experienced this.
Signed most cordially and sincerely with your best interests at heart,
Michelle
Ioannis
[snip]
> To be honest Ioannis, your art is 10 times better than Giger. I found Giger
> to be a bit "manufactured" & "contrived" whereas yours is much more natural.
>
> I have a proposition. I have found 60 art galleries/dealers in the UK.
>
> How about I send each thumb nails of your paintings with 2-3 full views of
> my favrittes?
>
> What is the point of being recognized after you are dead? You might as well
> go the whole hog now.
>
> If Giger is as good and as famous as he is, then you could be more than
> that!
>
> If you want to give it a go
> Then let me know
> and I'm sure a show
>
> of your art will be forthcoming.
>
> OK a bit of ink on my printer and a few stamps. It's worth it I think.
> You really should get some kind of recognition.
And what makes you think I should trust you to start or finish such a
job, after you write something like this?:
> YOU ARE NOT FUNCTIONING WITHIN NORMAL PARAMETERS
You really ought to be very careful about what you say, particularly in
this forum, since you DAMN WELL KNOW that sz's are very prone to various
insinuations.
> Oh - and Bach sends his best regards. You are right. It is not possible to
> believe there is nothing once you have experienced this.
>
> Signed most cordially and sincerely with your best interests at heart,
> Michelle
mad mitch
"Ioannis" <morp...@olympus.mons> wrote in message
> And what makes you think I should trust you to start or finish such a
> job, after you write something like this?:
>
> > YOU ARE NOT FUNCTIONING WITHIN NORMAL PARAMETERS
>
> You really ought to be very careful about what you say, particularly in
> this forum, since you DAMN WELL KNOW that sz's are very prone to various
> insinuations.
Oh grow up for God's sake.
No wonder I quit this newsgroup.
Where's your sense of humour Mr Baby?
Left it in the toilet?
I was trying to help, but still you misconstrue it.
Fuck off if that's your attitude.
Michelle
Ioannis
[snip]
> Oh grow up for God's sake.
>
> No wonder I quit this newsgroup.
>
> Where's your sense of humour Mr Baby?
>
> Left it in the toilet?
I am sorry, but it sounded like bad humor to me. If you wanted it to be
funny, you could have included a smiley or something else such. You KNOW
most of us can easily misconstrue other people's intentions,
particularly in view of the disease.
> I was trying to help, but still you misconstrue it.
My apologies.
> Fuck off if that's your attitude.
OK.
mad mitch
"Ioannis" <morp...@olympus.mons> wrote in message
> I am sorry, but it sounded like bad humor to me. If you wanted it to be
> funny, you could have included a smiley or something else such. You KNOW
> most of us can easily misconstrue other people's intentions,
> particularly in view of the disease.
You are right, I should have put a smiley. I am used to talking to English
and Australians and I forget that with every other race on the planet you
actually have to TELL them by way of a smiley :) when something is funny.
;)
Sorry Ioannis, I never did rate your sense of humour much but I have always
considered you well above average intelligence. I thought in the light of
that a smiley was unnecessary - particularly since you had just stated that
if I was a bomb and went off that no life would exist for at least 100
years!!! ;) OK, so you put a smiley after it, but do you really think I
would have taken you seriously if you hadn't???
Michelle
damo...@webtv.net
quite a show.......
I agree the pictures could make a show as well..
Bother@forgedpostsanonymous.unorg Cymbal Man Freq.
"mad mitch" <mad....@NOSPAMNOntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:n%Nmb.1349$sP5....@newsfep4-glfd.server.ntli.net...
I thought in the light of
| that a smiley was unnecessary - particularly since you had just stated that
| if I was a bomb and went off that no life would exist for at least 100
| years!!! ;) OK, so you put a smiley after it, but do you really think I
| would have taken you seriously if you hadn't???
|
| Michelle
|
o |>
o |>
Radioactive Snake smile with Fucked Tongue.....oops, Forked Tongue (nuked, not
nude)!
Ioannis
[snip]
> You are right, I should have put a smiley. I am used to talking to English
> and Australians and I forget that with every other race on the planet you
> actually have to TELL them by way of a smiley :) when something is funny.
> ;)
>
> Sorry Ioannis, I never did rate your sense of humour much but I have always
> considered you well above average intelligence. I thought in the light of
> that a smiley was unnecessary - particularly since you had just stated that
> if I was a bomb and went off that no life would exist for at least 100
> years!!! ;) OK, so you put a smiley after it, but do you really think I
> would have taken you seriously if you hadn't???
Mich,
You are probably right about my intelligence, unfortunatelly the disease
takes priority over my humorous nature sometimes. I can be humorous for
20 hours in a row and suddently I can read/see/hear something that makes
me paranoid.
It's not a matter of having been "stabilized" in this sense or having
been "grown up", rather, being careful what I read and what I hear.
These peculiar bouts occur infrequently, but they do occur,
nevertheless.
Again, I am sorry I fucked this up. You are very high on my respect and
admiration list, and unfortunatelly, the mind in such cases makes all
sorts of Oedipodal connections, which oftentimes get misconstrued
precicely _because_ I tend to give more attention to such people's
saying/writings.
You hit me exactly at the core of my problem, and I responded badly. Had
I not had this problem, I would be almost sane.
Now, what can I hit you with, to bring out the worst in you? :*) (I
guess I already did, otherwise you wouldn't have told me to fuck off,
with such fervor).
mad mitch
"Ioannis" <morp...@olympus.mons> wrote in message
> You are probably right about my intelligence, unfortunatelly the disease
> takes priority over my humorous nature sometimes. I can be humorous for
> 20 hours in a row and suddently I can read/see/hear something that makes
> me paranoid.
Same here, as usual my understanding level was at about zilch. :(
> It's not a matter of having been "stabilized" in this sense or having
> been "grown up", rather, being careful what I read and what I hear.
> These peculiar bouts occur infrequently, but they do occur,
> nevertheless.
>
> Again, I am sorry I fucked this up. You are very high on my respect and
> admiration list, and unfortunatelly, the mind in such cases makes all
> sorts of Oedipodal connections, which oftentimes get misconstrued
> precicely _because_ I tend to give more attention to such people's
> saying/writings.
>
> You hit me exactly at the core of my problem, and I responded badly. Had
> I not had this problem, I would be almost sane.
>
> Now, what can I hit you with, to bring out the worst in you? :*) (I
> guess I already did, otherwise you wouldn't have told me to fuck off,
> with such fervor).
No, I think you would be quite surprised. It was rather like offering
someone a beautiful plant that smelt lovely, and had beautiful flowers and
there is one tiny little bug on it and you say
"HUH!!! Why are you giving me bugs????"
I don't know if that makes sense, but I am terribly insecure and if someone
throws an act of kindness back in my face I am more likely to say "f*** off"
than try to understand why they did it.
In your case, I do appreciate that you have some very bad stuff going on -
and in many instances, humour is a long, long way off from your general
state of mind.
Oh well, I think that is about the 51st beer I now owe you eh?????
Will there be enough beer in heaven to compensate for all my errors???? ;)
Michelle
Ioannis
news:%DSob.340$3h5....@newsfep4-glfd.server.ntli.net...
[snip]
> Oh well, I think that is about the 51st beer I now owe you eh?????
>
> Will there be enough beer in heaven to compensate for all my errors????
;)
I don't know about heaven, cause I won't be going there, but if you ever
come and visit me in the inferno, maybe I can vouch for you for a six pack,
_without_ you, however, being able to pee for a week or two. The guys there
aren't very generous, unless some sort of exciting torture takes place :*)
> Michelle
--
Ioannis Galidakis
http://users.forthnet.gr/ath/jgal/
------------------------------------------
Eventually, _everything_ is understandable
Bother@forgedpostsanonymous.unorg Cymbal Man Freq.
"Ioannis" <morp...@olympus.mons> wrote in message
"A spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down...." - Mary Poppins
Judy
"Ioannis" <morp...@olympus.mons> wrote in message
Ioannis, you'll be able to see all those women who defile get
their come uppance LOL
mad mitch
"Ioannis" <morp...@olympus.mons> wrote in message
> I don't know about heaven, cause I won't be going there, but if you ever
> come and visit me in the inferno, maybe I can vouch for you for a six
pack,
> _without_ you, however, being able to pee for a week or two. The guys
there
> aren't very generous, unless some sort of exciting torture takes place :*)
Well, if I am in the other place you had better come to mine!!! ;)
You know, there is a beer drinking competition somewhere in this country and
the men literally have buckets under their penises and there is a constant
flow of beer in one end and out the other.
And they do say that if you find the ultimate truth, it will be while
drinking beer and it will come out your nose!!! ;)
I am still waiting..............
Michelle