complete and abject failure with women....
Warren Frey
decent living, is (I think) a good person, funny, smart, and while not drop
dead gorgeous, not hideous either. So why is it that the collected mass of
femaledom seems to have gotten together and hatched a plan to make my life
miserable? All around me, I have friends with women throwing themselves at
them; meanwhile, I sit back and wallow further in misery. I'm pretty much
certain that women do not find me attractive, and I can't for the life of me
figure out what it is I'm doing wrong.If I knew, I would change it. The only
girl I ever loved told me that she was attracted to one of my best friends
(after a year of going out with me), and expected my sympathy and support
when he didn't return that affection. So you can see that I haven't been in
the slightest bit lucky in the woman department, and from the looks of
things, aren't likely to be in the future. If anyone has any advice, it
would be greatly appreciated.
-Warren
Jae
if you stay with us, you aren't the only person, male or female who doesn't seem
to find people of the opposite sex attracted to them.
Sometimes, it isn't that there is something "wrong" with you, but that you
do not present yourself in the best possible way. Sometimes it is because of
"body language" that "pushes" people away from you. Mannerisims that you may
not even recognize that you exhibit. There is much to be learned here and often
people reccomend good books or articles on the net to help. Do you happen to
have a good friend that is a female that you might ask for an honest answer
about what could be something you can change about yourself? Jae
Warren Frey wrote:
--
"The night is my companion.....
And solitude my guide.......
Would I spend forever.....
And be not satisfied.....
Sarah McLachlan
pop...@my-dejanews.com
"Warren Frey" <wf...@powersurfr.com> wrote:
> Please let me get this off my chest. I'm a 28 year old male who makes a
> decent living, is (I think) a good person, funny, smart, and while not drop
> dead gorgeous, not hideous either. So why is it that the collected mass of
> femaledom seems to have gotten together and hatched a plan to make my life
> miserable? All around me, I have friends with women throwing themselves at
I know what you mean. I feel that I am a good person, I don't insult or make
fun of people, I listen, I make conversation, I am funny, friendly. Yet,
women ignore me. They don't give themselves a chance to get to know me.
To this day, I haven't gone out with anybody. It just seems so unfair you
know? My older sister, on the other hand, she was popular with people of
opposite sex, went out alot with many guys, and is dating one of them for many
years now. Her younger brother (that's me), don't fit-in with any crowd, and
pretty much ignored by women. My sister always had the most attention in the
family, was praised by everyone else. What I do is never enough for anybody.
Anybody else feel overshadowed by their siblings?
I don't know what advice I could give you, but all I could say is, visit this
group more often. Like what everyone else is saying, you're never lonely in
this group. Nice to meet you, Warren (with a handshake from Calgary, Canada).
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Jae
hoping to be helpful to you, popman. Warren's post indicated that he was
concerned there might be something wrong with *him*. Something that he might
change in himself or about himself to help in his endevor. Your post, on the
other hand, makes the statement, "They (meaning women) don't give themselves a
chance to know me." This indicates that you put all the "blame" on women. Do you
think this attitude might come through when you are with women? That we might
percieve this as a "dislike" and a "put down" of us? And therefore, make us wish
to avoid being with you?
You further say that you were "overshadowed" by your sister. Might the way
your parents appeared to treat her better than they did you, help you to have this
seeming attitude toward women? Instead of blaming your parents for the difference
in treatment...... as a Child, might you have thought it your sister's fault?
Just some questions to explore. And for the record, my Mom liked my brother
better than she liked my sister and I. <smile> Jae
pop...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
--
BobBillyJoe
> Please let me get this off my chest. I'm a 28 year old male who makes a
> decent living, is (I think) a good person, funny, smart, and while not drop
> dead gorgeous, not hideous either. So why is it that the collected mass of
> femaledom seems to have gotten together and hatched a plan to make my life
> miserable? All around me, I have friends with women throwing themselves at
> certain that women do not find me attractive, and I can't for the life of me
> figure out what it is I'm doing wrong.If I knew, I would change it. The only
> girl I ever loved told me that she was attracted to one of my best friends
> (after a year of going out with me), and expected my sympathy and support
> when he didn't return that affection. So you can see that I haven't been in
> the slightest bit lucky in the woman department, and from the looks of
> things, aren't likely to be in the future. If anyone has any advice, it
> would be greatly appreciated.
Warren I am in much the same situation as you. I can comment on your
situation if you are more specific, compare your experiences to mine,
but I do not have much advice that works or I would be using it!
Hang in there, there are a lot of guys like us. You are not alone.
--
BBJ
Karen Ronan
I'm Karen, age 41, married, not especially lonely, but I
isolate myself and spend a lot of time alone. So I sometimes
read this group. I haven't read it in a long time, though.
Here is some feedback to your dilemma of being a nice person
who feels ignored and rejected by women. There is a level of
communication: "This is me," which is about having a job, being funny,
smart, and attractive. There is another level of communication:
"This is me," which might be saying something else. It might
be saying, "I'm scared, mistrustful, angry, resentful,
I need to be rescued" or whatever, and if women pick up on messages
like that (which are unconscious, but they do pick it up), they
might feel apprehensive and wary of approaching you.
Do you think anything like that may be going on within you?
Karen
"Warren Frey" <wf...@powersurfr.com> writes:
> Please let me get this off my chest. I'm a 28 year old male who makes a
> decent living, is (I think) a good person, funny, smart, and while not drop
> dead gorgeous, not hideous either. So why is it that the collected mass of
> femaledom seems to have gotten together and hatched a plan to make my life
> miserable? All around me, I have friends with women throwing themselves at
> them; meanwhile, I sit back and wallow further in misery. I'm pretty much
> certain that women do not find me attractive, and I can't for the life of me
> figure out what it is I'm doing wrong.If I knew, I would change it. The only
> girl I ever loved told me that she was attracted to one of my best friends
> (after a year of going out with me), and expected my sympathy and support
> when he didn't return that affection. So you can see that I haven't been in
> the slightest bit lucky in the woman department, and from the looks of
> things, aren't likely to be in the future. If anyone has any advice, it
> would be greatly appreciated.
>
>
> -Warren
>
>
>
Joe3691149
Eagan - author of the book "How To Pick Up Beautiful Women" - appeared as a
guest on the Howard Stern Show. According to Howard Stern, John Eagan was
asked to go out with the E! crew and their hidden cameras to get dates for some
of their interns. Howard said the interns were the ugliest guys he could find.
John Eagan had to coach the interns with his techniques by speaking into the
interns ear pieces. Using John Eagan's techniques, these interns got dates
with beautiful girls within one hour. Howard said "This guy is no bull, I've
seen him in action.""He is fantastic." "He's the real deal ". If these ugly
interns were able to get dates within one hour imagine what an avarage guy can
do . I've been listening to Howard for 15 years. I've never heard him say
anything like that about any of his guests before. If you are interested, I
found his website at www.4secret.com. You can acutally see and hear these
interviews for yourself at his website.
Solo
Welcome to ASL.
I think the only way to start turning things around is to start asking for
feedback. If asking women is too threatening or too harsh, then choose a
male friend who is popular and solicit his help. You could maybe get him
to ask a woman indirectly for you.
Solo
Your Name Here
>jumping off point for discussion.
>
>In my case I have gotten plenty of feedback from women on my problems
>with romance. Like a lot of lonely guys I feel certain there is some
>nasty 'thing' wrong with me that women can see clear as day - if only
>I knew what 'it' was I would try to fix it.
>
>So far no woman has been able to help me find 'it.' There is nothing
>wrong with you, they tell me. They then go on to tell me all the
>good things about myself that women should like. I am intelligent, fun
>to talk to, stable and responsible, financially stable, not too bad
>looking. I do not disagree but if all these things are true why have I
>still gotten _nowhere_ with women after all these years?
>
>Oh, they have given me feedback on minor things, mostly lifestyle
>things - get involved in more activities, dress a little better, get a
>hair cut. All things easy to change. All are good advice except doing
>any of them - I have - has not helped me.
>
>Another bit of feedback given to me - sometimes in jest - is that I am
>too picky. I want women who are attractive, have no kids, are
>intelligent and fun to be with. I should not be so picky, they tell
>me. Only problem is, _they_ seem just as picky as I am. The difference
>is _they_ have dates and relationships. When they meet these men they
>do not say, 'Oh, he is not exactly what I am looking for, but I am not
>too picky.' Instead they go on and on about all the good things about
>him, how happy they are now, all of which they forget three months
>later when they are miserable and breaking up with him.
>
>The real message I get here - reading between the lines - is: I should
>not be too choosy because the really great women will not want me, so
>I will have to compromise. Maybe that is not what my friends giving me
>advice believe but when you are lonely and depressed, that is what you
>hear. Cognitive distortions, for those of you familiar with cognitive
>psychology.
>
>When you come right down to it, few women will be honest with guys
>about things the guys cannot change. Why should they? If a friend
>told me women are not attracted to me because I am unsexy and dull,
>how the hell do I change that? Even if she is right there is not much
>I can do about it. This kind of advice is not very helpful for
>anybody.
>
>You do have to be careful with being honest about such sensitive
>things. Once a woman friend was brutally honest with me about
>something. This is a woman I have known for a decade. We have had
>long, personal conversations many times over the years. Recently I was
>in a restaurant with my friend and commented that I thought the
>waitress was cute - think I would ever have a chance with her, I
>asked? No way, my friend said. Not my type. Then what _is_ my type I
>asked? She thought for a second then said, 'Well you are not a very
>good listener. You need a woman who does not talk much, kind of does her
>own thing.' I was flabbergasted. Here this woman has had these long
>personal conversations with me and thinks I need a woman who does not
>like to talk?
>
>I should have appreciated her honesty - perhaps she was right -
>but I was so hurt by this, coming from someone who I always _thought_
>I listened to, that it may have ruined our friendship. How am I ever
>going to have a deep conversation with her again fearing she does
>not really want to talk to me?
>
>Anyway - my two cents about getting feedback. Truly none of the
>feedback I have gotten has been too helpful, and when it has been too
>honest, despite good intentions, it was hurtful. Take feedback you get
>with a grain of salt.
>
>--
>BBJ
>
>
Welcome to the human race.
You're lucky? You get to meet women.
Me, I have problems meeting them in the flesh.
For those with shyness, the older you get, the less shy you become.
You can wait all your life for the right woman, and when she does finally
appear - she may drop you like a hot potatoe after a short while.
That has happened to me - too recently.
Life is a pain at times, but we are here to live it.
Usually we are aware of our own faults. Some friends may not own up to
what's obvious to them about you [I have a sister who plainly says what's
wrong with me - and usually she blurts it out in front of strangers!], but
usually we know what's obvious to others?
One day we will all get lucky and find that life is not so bad after all.
Hopefully that day comes sooner, than later - because some of us have
been waiting for too long...
My 2cents worth, anyway.
Harvey
Solo
BobBillyJoe wrote in message ...
>
>In my case I have gotten plenty of feedback from women on my problems
>with romance. Like a lot of lonely guys I feel certain there is some
>nasty 'thing' wrong with me that women can see clear as day - if only
>I knew what 'it' was I would try to fix it.
Well, what if there is absolutely nothing wrong with you...what if you're
okay the way you are? What if the cake's delicious, but the icing is a
little messy? It's all going to the same place in the end right? So who
cares? As long as it tastes good right?
>
>So far no woman has been able to help me find 'it.' There is nothing
>wrong with you, they tell me. They then go on to tell me all the
>good things about myself that women should like. I am intelligent, fun
>to talk to, stable and responsible, financially stable, not too bad
>looking. I do not disagree but if all these things are true why have I
>still gotten _nowhere_ with women after all these years?
Did you ask them that question?
>
>Oh, they have given me feedback on minor things, mostly lifestyle
>things - get involved in more activities, dress a little better, get a
>hair cut. All things easy to change. All are good advice except doing
>any of them - I have - has not helped me.
Well, did you ask them if the changes were significant enough? I mean so
you get a "C" on a paper...you're not happy with it...so you write another
paper...do you automatically assume you got an "A" without getting it
reevaluated?
>
>Another bit of feedback given to me - sometimes in jest - is that I am
>too picky. I want women who are attractive, have no kids, are
>intelligent and fun to be with. I should not be so picky, they tell
>me. Only problem is, _they_ seem just as picky as I am. The difference
>is _they_ have dates and relationships. When they meet these men they
>do not say, 'Oh, he is not exactly what I am looking for, but I am not
>too picky.' Instead they go on and on about all the good things about
>him, how happy they are now, all of which they forget three months
>later when they are miserable and breaking up with him.
People are very picky...especially my single friends...no one seems to quite
do it for them...or they bore easily. I always wonder why these people seem
to expect someone who is more educated, makes more money, is slimmer, more
popular, etc, etc, etc,. People seem to want to date up, not laterally.
>
>The real message I get here - reading between the lines - is: I should
>not be too choosy because the really great women will not want me, so
>I will have to compromise. Maybe that is not what my friends giving me
>advice believe but when you are lonely and depressed, that is what you
>hear. Cognitive distortions, for those of you familiar with cognitive
>psychology.
>
>When you come right down to it, few women will be honest with guys
>about things the guys cannot change. Why should they? If a friend
>told me women are not attracted to me because I am unsexy and dull,
>how the hell do I change that?
A true friend will tell the truth in love, even if it hurts. A true friend
won't let you walk around with something on your nose. By the way, there
are several things that can be done for a person who is unsexy and dull. It
sounds to me like you feel defeated before you've even gotten the feedback.
This could be especially true if you think there are fundamental things that
can never change. Have you thought of opening yourself up more, to
differing viewpoints...it is the only way to really effect change.
Even if she is right there is not much
>I can do about it. This kind of advice is not very helpful for
>anybody.
Well this is where I have a fundamental different viewpoint...there are
things that can be done. Perhaps you needed to prod her further for
specific suggestions...if you ask someone in broad terms, you tend to get
broad answers. A woman is not going to tell you to undo the top two buttons
in an effort to show a little chest and look a little sexier, unless she is
your sister...or you specifically ask her for nitty gritty details.:-)
>
>You do have to be careful with being honest about such sensitive
>things. Once a woman friend was brutally honest with me about
>something. This is a woman I have known for a decade. We have had
>long, personal conversations many times over the years. Recently I was
>in a restaurant with my friend and commented that I thought the
>waitress was cute - think I would ever have a chance with her, I
>asked? No way, my friend said. Not my type. Then what _is_ my type I
>asked? She thought for a second then said, 'Well you are not a very
>good listener. You need a woman who does not talk much, kind of does her
>own thing.' I was flabbergasted. Here this woman has had these long
>personal conversations with me and thinks I need a woman who does not
>like to talk?
>
>I should have appreciated her honesty - perhaps she was right -
>but I was so hurt by this, coming from someone who I always _thought_
>I listened to, that it may have ruined our friendship. How am I ever
>going to have a deep conversation with her again fearing she does
>not really want to talk to me?
Aha...you have hit the nail on the head...the reason people don't ask, don't
really want serious negative/constructive feedback...it hurts to find out
you don't rank as a "9" or a "10" in the listener category...oh well...you
should thank her...she took a risk and told you the truth in love...now you
hate her for it...it is a hard thing to do, to give someone constructive
criticism. It is my opinion that 90% of men don't get a "9" or a "10" in
the listener category...so take heart. Actually, it is sort of a
stereotypical thing isn't it? I'm surprised you were surprised at this.
Anyhow, it is obvious she wants to talk with you...she just wants 50% of the
air time.
>
>Anyway - my two cents about getting feedback. Truly none of the
>feedback I have gotten has been too helpful, and when it has been too
>honest, despite good intentions, it was hurtful. Take feedback you get
>with a grain of salt.
Well, feedback is endemic to our society...and I don't see how any of us are
going to advance without it...so I suppose I am at the polar opposite from
you here. When I took figure skating lessons...I got feedback...and I
wanted it...when I wrote essays in school...I got feedback, when I made love
to my partner I got feedback. Feedback, it makes the world go round, almost
as much as money. Maybe part of the solution is learning how to ask for
feedback so that you can receive it in a form that is useful, practical, and
readily put it into practice.
My two cents worth.
Solo:-)
>
>--
>BBJ
>
>
InvisibleMan
Sounds like you and I are living the same life. I also make a
decent living and am pretty good looking(if I don't say so myself). But,
I've been ridiculed, abused, and rejected by women ever since I was 15 years
old. I don't let it bother me. Well, it bothers me, but I've quit playing
the game. Maybe I'm a quitter. All I know is I'm a hell of a lot happier
since I quit trying to fit other people's ideas of who I should be and just
started living my life. Since I've become celibate I have more money, more
time to enjoy my hobbies, and a hell of a lot less stress. I haven't had a
date since 1992 and it's absolute freedom! I have more toys than I could
have imagined(car, nice mountain bike, computer, numerous video game
systems). Sure I sometimes wonder if I've made the right decision, but then
I see how many people are absolutely destroyed by a divorce and it convinces
me I'm right. Maybe society has devolved to a point where a one-on-one
relationship with the opposite sex is bound to fail. All the married couples
I know(with exception of my parents) are either dysfunctional, or have at
least one divorce in their past. Bottom line is, don't sweat it. Find other
things to do with your time rather than chasing some woman. Hey, if a woman
finds you interesting, she can make the first move. It happens to me every
so often. Of course, I turn them down politely. I just don't want to play
the game anymore.
Mike
BobBillyJoe
> BobBillyJoe wrote in message ...
>>
>>In my case I have gotten plenty of feedback from women on my problems
>>with romance. Like a lot of lonely guys I feel certain there is some
>>nasty 'thing' wrong with me that women can see clear as day - if only
>>I knew what 'it' was I would try to fix it.
> Well, what if there is absolutely nothing wrong with you...what if you're
> okay the way you are? What if the cake's delicious, but the icing is a
> little messy? It's all going to the same place in the end right? So who
> cares? As long as it tastes good right?
You would think if it was merely a matter of 'icing is a little messy'
I would not be in my thirties having never had even a slight romantic
encounter in my life.
I do tend to think of myself as a 'delicious cake' and often wonder
why women cannot see that? Why do they not want to taste me?
I think I have taken your analogy far enough.:)
>>So far no woman has been able to help me find 'it.' There is nothing
>>wrong with you, they tell me. They then go on to tell me all the
>>good things about myself that women should like. I am intelligent, fun
>>to talk to, stable and responsible, financially stable, not too bad
>>looking. I do not disagree but if all these things are true why have I
>>still gotten _nowhere_ with women after all these years?
> Did you ask them that question?
A few. It is not something easy to do - takes an enormous amount of
energy to talk about in detail. At least that has been my experience.
A lot of time is spent explaining how I feel or what I am thinking
when I do this or that or a woman does this or that. It is much like
therapy.
Often my friends seem tired of hearing about my problems with women. I
cannot say I blame them.
>>Oh, they have given me feedback on minor things, mostly lifestyle
>>things - get involved in more activities, dress a little better, get a
>>hair cut. All things easy to change. All are good advice except doing
>>any of them - I have - has not helped me.
> Well, did you ask them if the changes were significant enough? I mean so
> you get a "C" on a paper...you're not happy with it...so you write another
> paper...do you automatically assume you got an "A" without getting it
> reevaluated?
Yes. One friend told me bluntly she thought my hair looked bad,
otherwise I was quite handsome. I got it cut - she loved it. Other
women told me it looked a lot better. Big deal. It has made no
difference in the last year. My dating prospects have never been
worse.
I once had a woman go clothes shopping with me, pick out hip
clothes for me to wear. I spent a lot of money on them. Soon after I
got compliments from others on the way I dressed. Big deal. It made no
difference in my dating prospects. I have also noticed lots of guys
who dress worse than I do seem to have girlfriends.
>>Another bit of feedback given to me - sometimes in jest - is that I am
>>too picky. I want women who are attractive, have no kids, are
>>intelligent and fun to be with. I should not be so picky, they tell
>>me. Only problem is, _they_ seem just as picky as I am. The difference
>>is _they_ have dates and relationships. When they meet these men they
>>do not say, 'Oh, he is not exactly what I am looking for, but I am not
>>too picky.' Instead they go on and on about all the good things about
>>him, how happy they are now, all of which they forget three months
>>later when they are miserable and breaking up with him.
> People are very picky...especially my single friends...no one seems to quite
> do it for them...or they bore easily. I always wonder why these people seem
> to expect someone who is more educated, makes more money, is slimmer, more
> popular, etc, etc, etc,. People seem to want to date up, not laterally.
I do not want someone who is more educated, makes more money, or is
slimmer than me. I am not studly looking but I am not 'bad' looking -
I expect at least a woman who is not 'bad' looking, either. She need
not be gorgeous.
As far as what qualities we seek in a partner - I do not look at it as
a matter of comparison to us. There are certain things that attract me
to a woman - looks, personality traits, etc. And certain turnoffs. I
am sure it is the same with everyone.
>>The real message I get here - reading between the lines - is: I should
>>not be too choosy because the really great women will not want me, so
>>I will have to compromise. Maybe that is not what my friends giving me
>>advice believe but when you are lonely and depressed, that is what you
>>hear. Cognitive distortions, for those of you familiar with cognitive
>>psychology.
>>
>>When you come right down to it, few women will be honest with guys
>>about things the guys cannot change. Why should they? If a friend
>>told me women are not attracted to me because I am unsexy and dull,
>>how the hell do I change that?
> A true friend will tell the truth in love, even if it hurts. A true friend
> won't let you walk around with something on your nose. By the way, there
> are several things that can be done for a person who is unsexy and dull. It
> sounds to me like you feel defeated before you've even gotten the feedback.
> This could be especially true if you think there are fundamental things that
> can never change. Have you thought of opening yourself up more, to
> differing viewpoints...it is the only way to really effect change.
Here we will have to disagree. I believe there are certain things in
us we cannot change. I could think of a lot of qualities about people
that are unlikely to change. That is life. I will decline to list them
here so as not to depress anyone who might read them and say 'I am
like that!'
What I am looking for are things I can change - how I talk to women,
what kinds of things to say, when to approach them, when to not. What
kind of things I say that put women off to me. Smile more, make eye
contact. What are women _thinking_ when I say this or do that? Instead
I get feedback about my hair or the color of my socks. If there are
fundamental things I can change about my approach to women, no one has
been able to come up with what they are.
I have this wacky idea - if only I could set such a thing up, a
'lonely guy clinic' - of hiring some women to evaluate me. Have them
talk to me, maybe flirt with me, get to know me a little. Then get
feedback from them, probably through some third person - what is
attractive about me? What is not? Would these women want to go out
with me? Why or why not? Maybe I would be encouraged if the results
were more positive than I expect.
In real life, I have no clue why women who have rejected me have done
so. All you get is that they do not want to go out again. When you
hear 'you are not my type' or 'you remind me of my ex-boyfriend', you
know you are getting excuses, they do not want to hurt your feelings.
As far as friends being 'honest' - yes but only to a degree. If I have
something on my nose - of course. Easy to change. If the feedback was,
'You know, you are just too short, too ethnic,' whatever, how
constructive could that be? I have known women who were not very
attractive, and I am not talking about looks. Something in their
personality says, 'You do not want to date this person.' Hard to put a
finger on exactly what. What if they asked for honest feedback? Would
I tell them that their personalities are not very engaging?
Noticing that in these women, I fear that is the 'problem' with me. I
am a nice person, intelligent, interesting to talk to, not
_unattractive_, just ordinary, ho-hum, forgettable. No draw to me. All
wrapped up in my personality. How do I change _that_?
> Even if she is right there is not much
>>I can do about it. This kind of advice is not very helpful for
>>anybody.
> Well this is where I have a fundamental different viewpoint...there are
> things that can be done. Perhaps you needed to prod her further for
> specific suggestions...if you ask someone in broad terms, you tend to get
> broad answers. A woman is not going to tell you to undo the top two buttons
> in an effort to show a little chest and look a little sexier, unless she is
> your sister...or you specifically ask her for nitty gritty details.:-)
I have not gotten _that_ exact feedback but it has been close. One
woman suggested I wear a different color socks.
Had she told me this early in our friendship, or had it been in a
different context, I would have appreciated it more. I did not ask her
about conversation skills, I asked her about what kind of woman might
be my 'type', and she said a woman who did not like to talk much,
because I was not a good listener. I was hurt because I want just the
opposite in a woman, and for her to suggest I find a woman who does
not like to talk, after all our long conversations, is more than a
little hurtful. Like she has been dreading talking to me all these
years. It is like a guy finding out years later that his wife has
faked every orgasm, telling him that long after the fact instead of
making constructive suggestions at the time. I felt like an idiot.
I do not 'hate' my friend for this. I was hurt, and I have tried not
to hold it against her, but I cannot help it. I feel guilty that I
cannot resume a normal friendship with her, but I find myself wanting
to avoid her. There are other issues too - even without this we have
drifted apart.
> Anyhow, it is obvious she wants to talk with you...she just wants 50% of the
> air time.
She got 50% of the air time. I know exactly what she is talking about
though about me not being a good listener, at least with her. I
understand what she means, but again I am hurt that she waited this
long to tell me, and in that context. I do think I am a better
listener with other people.
>>Anyway - my two cents about getting feedback. Truly none of the
>>feedback I have gotten has been too helpful, and when it has been too
>>honest, despite good intentions, it was hurtful. Take feedback you get
>>with a grain of salt.
> Well, feedback is endemic to our society...and I don't see how any of us are
> going to advance without it...so I suppose I am at the polar opposite from
> you here. When I took figure skating lessons...I got feedback...and I
> wanted it...when I wrote essays in school...I got feedback, when I made love
> to my partner I got feedback. Feedback, it makes the world go round, almost
> as much as money. Maybe part of the solution is learning how to ask for
> feedback so that you can receive it in a form that is useful, practical, and
> readily put it into practice.
Of course I think feedback is important. But giving feedback depends
entirely on the situation and how you think the person will
react. 'Your tie is crooked' and 'You are shorter than most guys' are
two entirely different kinds of feedback. One you can change easily,
one you cannot.
Sorry if I sound so downbeat, Solo. It is not that I do not appreciate
your feedback. Not a very happy weekend.
--
BBJ
Frans
BobBillyJoe heeft geschreven in bericht ...
<snipped>
BBJ, you bring forward too many "....But's....". For every good
advise you'll find an excuse why it doesn't fit you and "I've done
all that". I don't want to hurt you, but like said in another
thread: "a good friend tell you there's something on your nose..."
You are darn right. Working on the outside doesn't help. You're
wrong in thinking that "a school of people teaching you how to
behave / act" would do the trick. Well, there are very good acting
schools, but actors are often very lonely.
I'll give one (more) advice and I know it's good advice, though what
you showed here I think I'm not able to change you overnight: Don't
make difference in your attitude towards unknown women and men. You
think women are different. They are not, because like you they look
for warmth and friendship and a fine shoulder to hang on, if life
gets slippery.
You know quite well when males are boring. You've lost friends while
expressing your 'problems' with getting aquatinted. So learn to gain
friends (again). Even if you have to learn to handle small talk.
Changing the outside gives a new look to the same boring text.
Writing new text within the same cover surprises people: unexpected
surprises are positive.
So begin with the inside. Start showing interests to the world.
Every seven years every cell in the body is renewed. So 35 years (5
x 7) is a good time to start a new life. Or take more time and go
for 42. But work on yourself. You can't be a champion or a winner
without some effort.
Forget all the reasons "why you can't make it..." Work on one only
goal you are able to make. The next goals will come due.
And believe me, I know what I talk about. You and I don't differ
that much, eh... when I was your age.
Frans
Quinten McCracken
> us we cannot change.
That is true. Those things are our *essence*. For some reason, I like
analogies to geometry. You can change the shape of a triangle all you
want -- make it right, obtuse, acute, etc. But you cannot make it fail to
have three sides. That is the essence of what it is to be a triangle.
Solo
BobBillyJoe wrote in message ...
>Solo <sm_p...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> BobBillyJoe wrote in message ...
>
>
>I would not be in my thirties having never had even a slight romantic
>encounter in my life.
Well, I guess your definition of slight would have to be clarified.:-) My
present partner of 4years had only had one other longterm relationship
18months , 4-5 yrs., prior to meeting me when he was 34yrs. I don't think
that this rules you out somehow. I have several single friends who have not
had a longterm relationship the whole time we've been together.
>
>I do tend to think of myself as a 'delicious cake' and often wonder
>why women cannot see that? Why do they not want to taste me?
I don't know,:-)...do you give out free sample of yourself...I mean are you
warm, open, communicative, affectionate.
>
>I think I have taken your analogy far enough.:)
It's unfortunate, but probably you have...we have to be relatively middle of
the road and moderate here...or else put warnings in our headers.:-) Maybe
one day I'll just have to go for the big warning. But then, Howard Stern
seems to draw audiences even from among the prudish, "we just had to hear
what he was going to say next."
>
I do not disagree but if all these things are true why have I
>>>still gotten _nowhere_ with women after all these years?
>
>> Did you ask them that question?
>
>A few. It is not something easy to do - takes an enormous amount of
>energy to talk about in detail. At least that has been my experience.
>A lot of time is spent explaining how I feel or what I am thinking
>when I do this or that or a woman does this or that. It is much like
>therapy.
Well, the way I see it...everything worth having takes effort. I've been
training to run half marathons...just did my first on Valentines...and it
takes a lot of time to train. I'm doing long runs...I must put in at least
6 hours/week, and I do it with others who are interested in training in the
same thing...so it's more fun...and not all work.:-)
>
>Often my friends seem tired of hearing about my problems with women. I
>cannot say I blame them.
I think people tire of hearing the hopelessness, that nothing is ever going
to work/change things attitude...and we all now that this is just not
true...a triangle can be very balanced looking if all sides are equal...very
phallic looking if positioned in a certain way, or very bizarre looking if
two ends are really stretched out...in the end, yes it is still a
triangle...but there are so many things you can do to it. We haven't even
gotten to the 3D the colours and the painting.:-) People want to hear that
you are working on something, that you are trying something...even if it
might not work...it just might not change you...but maybe you'll meet more
people, or different types of people.
>
>>>Oh, they have given me feedback on minor things, mostly lifestyle
>>>things - get involved in more activities, dress a little better, get a
>>>hair cut. All things easy to change. All are good advice except doing
>>>any of them - I have - has not helped me.
Well haircuts are good.:-) But, only if you keep them up...a one time
haircut can wear off pretty quickly.:-)
>
>
>Yes. One friend told me bluntly she thought my hair looked bad,
>otherwise I was quite handsome. I got it cut - she loved it. Other
>women told me it looked a lot better. Big deal. It has made no
>difference in the last year. My dating prospects have never been
>worse.
Big deal, really...she said she loved it...I'd say that is a big deal. And,
it was a step in the right direction...maybe you have a staircase in front
of you to climb...do you stop at the first two steps...that would be like me
stopping at 10K and say that's it...it's never going to get me to 21k...and
I'm too slow, and by the time I get there who will care anyways...and
they'll probably close the race route before I finish...etc., etc.,;-)...I'm
teasing you.:-)
>
>I once had a woman go clothes shopping with me, pick out hip
>clothes for me to wear. I spent a lot of money on them. Soon after I
>got compliments from others on the way I dressed. Big deal. It made no
>difference in my dating prospects. I have also noticed lots of guys
>who dress worse than I do seem to have girlfriends.
So does that mean you trashed the improvement in...and forgot all about it,
because that would be a pity.
>
>I do not want someone who is more educated, makes more money, or is
>slimmer than me. I am not studly looking but I am not 'bad' looking -
>I expect at least a woman who is not 'bad' looking, either. She need
>not be gorgeous.
Well, you sound to have reasonable expectations...you're not shooting for a
model, who has her Ph.D, and owns a mansion.
>
>As far as what qualities we seek in a partner - I do not look at it as
>a matter of comparison to us. There are certain things that attract me
>to a woman - looks, personality traits, etc. And certain turnoffs. I
>am sure it is the same with everyone.
Well, have you thought about listing these traits and then thinking about
where these women are likely to be hiding/hanging out.:-)
>
>
>Here we will have to disagree. I believe there are certain things in
>us we cannot change. I could think of a lot of qualities about people
>that are unlikely to change. That is life. I will decline to list them
>here so as not to depress anyone who might read them and say 'I am
>like that!'
It is good that you are able to disagree...I just happen to think that I can
change a triangle a little further than you do I guess.:-)
>
>What I am looking for are things I can change - how I talk to women,
>what kinds of things to say, when to approach them, when to not. What
>kind of things I say that put women off to me. Smile more, make eye
>contact. What are women _thinking_ when I say this or do that? Instead
>I get feedback about my hair or the color of my socks. If there are
>fundamental things I can change about my approach to women, no one has
>been able to come up with what they are.
Maybe it isn't about approach...maybe it is attention to detail...things
that seem trivial to you, but are important to women...you are looking for
something concrete...the old left brain logical concrete engineer...tell me
about it...I live with one...women are much more right brain....shopping,
trivial details, subtle nuances of appearances, manner, behaviour. I can
tell you, women are thinking about your clothes, and your hair cut 100x's
more than you are. I had to give him a course in fashion...we called it
fashion 101. He had no colour sense...none. So I went through how black
and white go with everything...he must wear one as a base or top...otherwise
he must consult me. Oh yeah...and that tweed suit of his...it went in the
garbage...and those tacky yellow/pink flowered shorts...they went there
too...he was quite upset about it...I think we recently got rid of a 20yr
old red lumberjack flannel shirt...oh God. There is a reason women like to
shop, and men would do well to figure out the ramifications of that.:-)
>
>
>Noticing that in these women, I fear that is the 'problem' with me. I
>am a nice person, intelligent, interesting to talk to, not
>_unattractive_, just ordinary, ho-hum, forgettable. No draw to me. All
>wrapped up in my personality. How do I change _that_?
You have draw, or I wouldn't be writing you, others wouldn't be writing
you...feel more sorry for those who post and get no reply at all.
>
)
>
>I have not gotten _that_ exact feedback but it has been close. One
>woman suggested I wear a different color socks.
Well, believe it or not, he was wearing white socks with black
pants...fashion 101...I highly recommend you get someone to give you the
course and go through your closet.
>
>>>
>Had she told me this early in our friendship, or had it been in a
>different context, I would have appreciated it more. I did not ask her
>about conversation skills, I asked her about what kind of woman might
>be my 'type', and she said a woman who did not like to talk much,
>because I was not a good listener. I was hurt because I want just the
>opposite in a woman, and for her to suggest I find a woman who does
>not like to talk, after all our long conversations, is more than a
>little hurtful. Like she has been dreading talking to me all these
>years. It is like a guy finding out years later that his wife has
>faked every orgasm, telling him that long after the fact instead of
>making constructive suggestions at the time. I felt like an idiot.
Well, it wasn't a faked orgasm so don't magnify it out of proportion.:-)
You were hurt because she was late telling you...maybe she was having a bad
day...maybe she was stretching to find something to criticize.
>
>I do not 'hate' my friend for this. I was hurt, and I have tried not
>to hold it against her, but I cannot help it. I feel guilty that I
>cannot resume a normal friendship with her, but I find myself wanting
>to avoid her. There are other issues too - even without this we have
>drifted apart.
That's too bad, it sounds like she was a good friend, and good
friends...have friends, and they have friends....
>
>> Anyhow, it is obvious she wants to talk with you...she just wants 50% of
the
>> air time.
>
>She got 50% of the air time. I know exactly what she is talking about
>though about me not being a good listener, at least with her. I
>understand what she means, but again I am hurt that she waited this
>long to tell me, and in that context. I do think I am a better
>listener with other people.
Women like men to hear the content and feeling of what they've just said and
have it reflected back in your own words to know you've heard. They don't
want you to solve their problems or talk incessantly without taking a breath
about your work for over 30mins.
>
>
>Of course I think feedback is important. But giving feedback depends
>entirely on the situation and how you think the person will
>react. 'Your tie is crooked' and 'You are shorter than most guys' are
>two entirely different kinds of feedback. One you can change easily,
>one you cannot.
Yes, he gets upset with me when I occasionally make a scant jab about his
height...but you know he stands above me, and kisses me on the stairwell
;-) so there are somethings you can do about even the unchangeable.:-)
>
>
>Sorry if I sound so downbeat, Solo. It is not that I do not appreciate
>your feedback. Not a very happy weekend.
I'm sorry to hear your weekend was not so good, I hope your week is better
Solo
>
>--
>BBJ
>
>
Gina R12
But...even with all your extra money, freedom and toys....don't you feel lonely
when it's time to put the toys away ... and there's nothing left you want to
buy..... and freedom means having nothing left to lose (isn't that a song) ?
I'm sorry....I just can't relate to being happy and feeling complete with just
freedom, money and toys. Don't you ever feel the need to share these things
with someone else ? Is it not worth the effort to at least try ? I'm just
trying to understand.....
Smiles,
Gina
"Well, I keep moving on..
But I never found out why..
I keep pushing so hard a dream..
I keep trying to make it right..
Through another lonely day..."
---Janis Joplin
BobBillyJoe
> BobBillyJoe heeft geschreven in bericht ...
> <snipped>
> BBJ, you bring forward too many "....But's....". For every good
> advise you'll find an excuse why it doesn't fit you and "I've done
> all that". I don't want to hurt you, but like said in another
> thread: "a good friend tell you there's something on your nose..."
Yes, you are right. I am terribly discouraged and quick to dismiss
advice people give me. In truth I have tried many things people have
suggested and have come to believe these helpful tips do not seem to
address the real problem. Whatever that is. Plus I get frustrated
having to do things other guys do not seem to need to worry
about. Some guys date all the time, seemingly get dates without much
effort, and even other women will tell you these guys are not exactly
god's gift to women. I know I have a lot of great qualities as a
person, but they do not seem to be enough. Necessary but not
sufficient.
> You are darn right. Working on the outside doesn't help. You're
> wrong in thinking that "a school of people teaching you how to
> behave / act" would do the trick. Well, there are very good acting
> schools, but actors are often very lonely.
And other actors have many friends, at least meet enough people so
they _can_ make friends.
> I'll give one (more) advice and I know it's good advice, though what
> you showed here I think I'm not able to change you overnight: Don't
> make difference in your attitude towards unknown women and men. You
> think women are different. They are not, because like you they look
> for warmth and friendship and a fine shoulder to hang on, if life
> gets slippery.
Oh no, I am going to dismiss even more advice. :( I must disagree, I
do not think I should treat women and men the same. I would never
flirt with a guy. I would flirt with platonic female friends. Sorry,
to me there is a difference.
> You know quite well when males are boring. You've lost friends while
> expressing your 'problems' with getting aquatinted. So learn to gain
> friends (again). Even if you have to learn to handle small talk.
> Changing the outside gives a new look to the same boring text.
> Writing new text within the same cover surprises people: unexpected
> surprises are positive.
Do you think all the men who get dates every week are somehow
extremely interesting to all the women they meet, or do you think these
guys merely know how to talk to women? Have qualities women find
attractive?
> So begin with the inside. Start showing interests to the world.
> Every seven years every cell in the body is renewed. So 35 years (5
> x 7) is a good time to start a new life. Or take more time and go
> for 42. But work on yourself. You can't be a champion or a winner
> without some effort.
> Forget all the reasons "why you can't make it..." Work on one only
> goal you are able to make. The next goals will come due.
Yes yes I know, think positive. That is hard to do when I am near
hopeless at times about my situation. And this coming from someone who
is a strong advocate of Cognitive Therapy - which is much different
than 'think positive' but sometimes it is very hard to do. Untwisting
my thinking helps me when I can do it, but sometimes I do not feel
like dealing with my problems.
Thank you for your feedback Frans.
--
BBJ
BobBillyJoe
> BobBillyJoe wrote in message ...
>>Solo <sm_p...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> BobBillyJoe wrote in message ...
>>
>>
>>You would think if it was merely a matter of 'icing is a little messy'
>>I would not be in my thirties having never had even a slight romantic
>>encounter in my life.
> Well, I guess your definition of slight would have to be clarified.:-)
Never so much as kissed a woman or held hands with a woman in a
romantic way. Kissing my aunt at the holidays does not count of
course. :) It goes without saying that I am a virgin.
Have had close emotional attachments with a few women, none turned
into romances for one reason or another. Usually the women did not
know the extent of my feelings until I had to blurt them out in an
inappropriate way.
> My
> present partner of 4years had only had one other longterm relationship
> 18months , 4-5 yrs., prior to meeting me when he was 34yrs. I don't think
> that this rules you out somehow. I have several single friends who have not
> had a longterm relationship the whole time we've been together.
No but it seems a huge hurdle for me to get over. Whichever woman is
my 'first' girlfriend will have to be extremely understanding and
patient with me. Maybe it is mostly in my mind not 'real' but a huge
anxiety to worry about if I meet a woman.
>>I do tend to think of myself as a 'delicious cake' and often wonder
>>why women cannot see that? Why do they not want to taste me?
> I don't know,:-)...do you give out free sample of yourself...I mean are you
> warm, open, communicative, affectionate.
Communicative and open yes, when I get to know someone. Have had more
than one woman compliment me on that. Intelligent and humorous,
yes. Warm and affectionate, no. I yearn to be, I am afraid to be too
affectionate til I am very comfortable with someone. I make it point
to hug my close female friends, but I am afraid to be too affectionate
to women I hardly know. I might well be warm and affectionate in a
relationship, it is hard to say I am not until I get to that point.
These all seem great qualities to have _in_ a relationship, but are
they truly attractive before you get into one?
> I do not disagree but if all these things are true why have I
>>>>still gotten _nowhere_ with women after all these years?
>>
>>> Did you ask them that question?
>>
>>A few. It is not something easy to do - takes an enormous amount of
>>energy to talk about in detail. At least that has been my experience.
>>A lot of time is spent explaining how I feel or what I am thinking
>>when I do this or that or a woman does this or that. It is much like
>>therapy.
> Well, the way I see it...everything worth having takes effort. I've been
> training to run half marathons...just did my first on Valentines...and it
> takes a lot of time to train. I'm doing long runs...I must put in at least
> 6 hours/week, and I do it with others who are interested in training in the
> same thing...so it's more fun...and not all work.:-)
Well would you train hard for a marathon if it was 200 miles instead
of 26? Does 200 miles seem far to you? What if I told you most other
people were able to run that far? Anyway that is how I look at my
problems. It seems impossible that I could ever get to that point with
a woman.
> Well haircuts are good.:-) But, only if you keep them up...a one time
> haircut can wear off pretty quickly.:-)
Without going into detail, it was the style that I changed, I have
kept it that way.
>>Yes. One friend told me bluntly she thought my hair looked bad,
>>otherwise I was quite handsome. I got it cut - she loved it. Other
>>women told me it looked a lot better. Big deal. It has made no
>>difference in the last year. My dating prospects have never been
>>worse.
> Big deal, really...she said she loved it...I'd say that is a big deal. And,
> it was a step in the right direction...maybe you have a staircase in front
> of you to climb...do you stop at the first two steps...that would be like me
> stopping at 10K and say that's it...it's never going to get me to 21k...and
> I'm too slow, and by the time I get there who will care anyways...and
> they'll probably close the race route before I finish...etc., etc.,;-)...I'm
> teasing you.:-)
It does take time to train for a marathon, but you would hope to
notice some improvement between first week and say eighth week of
training. If you were still as out of breath eight weeks later and not
able to run any further would you not feel a little discouraged? Even
after people gave you tips that did not seem to help? That is how I
feel - discouraged.
>>I once had a woman go clothes shopping with me, pick out hip
>>clothes for me to wear. I spent a lot of money on them. Soon after I
>>got compliments from others on the way I dressed. Big deal. It made no
>>difference in my dating prospects. I have also noticed lots of guys
>>who dress worse than I do seem to have girlfriends.
> So does that mean you trashed the improvement in...and forgot all about it,
> because that would be a pity.
Mostly I have yes. It took a lot of energy and money to keep up a good
wardrobe.
>>I do not want someone who is more educated, makes more money, or is
>>slimmer than me. I am not studly looking but I am not 'bad' looking -
>>I expect at least a woman who is not 'bad' looking, either. She need
>>not be gorgeous.
> Well, you sound to have reasonable expectations...you're not shooting for a
> model, who has her Ph.D, and owns a mansion.
>>
>>As far as what qualities we seek in a partner - I do not look at it as
>>a matter of comparison to us. There are certain things that attract me
>>to a woman - looks, personality traits, etc. And certain turnoffs. I
>>am sure it is the same with everyone.
> Well, have you thought about listing these traits and then thinking about
> where these women are likely to be hiding/hanging out.:-)
Finding the women and figuring out how to talk to them or why they do
not seem to be interested are two different things. I have chances to
meet plenty of women. Only rarely can I even talk to them, even when I
do I cannot get past casual conversation.
>>What I am looking for are things I can change - how I talk to women,
>>what kinds of things to say, when to approach them, when to not. What
>>kind of things I say that put women off to me. Smile more, make eye
>>contact. What are women _thinking_ when I say this or do that? Instead
>>I get feedback about my hair or the color of my socks. If there are
>>fundamental things I can change about my approach to women, no one has
>>been able to come up with what they are.
> Maybe it isn't about approach...maybe it is attention to detail...things
> that seem trivial to you, but are important to women...you are looking for
> something concrete...the old left brain logical concrete engineer...tell me
> about it...I live with one...women are much more right brain....shopping,
> trivial details, subtle nuances of appearances, manner, behaviour. I can
> tell you, women are thinking about your clothes, and your hair cut 100x's
> more than you are. I had to give him a course in fashion...we called it
> fashion 101. He had no colour sense...none. So I went through how black
> and white go with everything...he must wear one as a base or top...otherwise
> he must consult me. Oh yeah...and that tweed suit of his...it went in the
> garbage...and those tacky yellow/pink flowered shorts...they went there
> too...he was quite upset about it...I think we recently got rid of a 20yr
> old red lumberjack flannel shirt...oh God. There is a reason women like to
> shop, and men would do well to figure out the ramifications of that.:-)
But did these things about your man keep you from getting _into_ a
relationship with him? No. As I said above I get frustrated with
feeling I need to do things to attract women that other men - like
your guy - to not need to do. A lot of advice one particular friend
gives me is like this - tips for things that might help me if my
problem was 'why do my relationships never work out?' I am not getting
anywhere near that far.
>>Noticing that in these women, I fear that is the 'problem' with me. I
>>am a nice person, intelligent, interesting to talk to, not
>>_unattractive_, just ordinary, ho-hum, forgettable. No draw to me. All
>>wrapped up in my personality. How do I change _that_?
> You have draw, or I wouldn't be writing you, others wouldn't be writing
> you...feel more sorry for those who post and get no reply at all.
Thank you, I do think I am interesting to talk to and intelligent, you
would probably enjoy talking with me at a party. Question is would you
remember me _after_ the party? When you think of doing fun stuff would
you want to invite me? Based on how my friends treat me I would say
generally 'no.' Not that my friends do not want me around, I am just
not an attractive personality, the kind you want to be around. That is
what I mean by 'draw.' Some people have engaging personalities, so do
not. I see the same thing in other people.
>>
>>I have not gotten _that_ exact feedback but it has been close. One
>>woman suggested I wear a different color socks.
> Well, believe it or not, he was wearing white socks with black
> pants...fashion 101...I highly recommend you get someone to give you the
> course and go through your closet.
Again - did it keep you from getting into a relationship with him?
>>Had she told me this early in our friendship, or had it been in a
>>different context, I would have appreciated it more. I did not ask her
>>about conversation skills, I asked her about what kind of woman might
>>be my 'type', and she said a woman who did not like to talk much,
>>because I was not a good listener. I was hurt because I want just the
>>opposite in a woman, and for her to suggest I find a woman who does
>>not like to talk, after all our long conversations, is more than a
>>little hurtful. Like she has been dreading talking to me all these
>>years. It is like a guy finding out years later that his wife has
>>faked every orgasm, telling him that long after the fact instead of
>>making constructive suggestions at the time. I felt like an idiot.
> Well, it wasn't a faked orgasm so don't magnify it out of proportion.:-)
> You were hurt because she was late telling you...maybe she was having a bad
> day...maybe she was stretching to find something to criticize.
Maybe.
>>I do not 'hate' my friend for this. I was hurt, and I have tried not
>>to hold it against her, but I cannot help it. I feel guilty that I
>>cannot resume a normal friendship with her, but I find myself wanting
>>to avoid her. There are other issues too - even without this we have
>>drifted apart.
> That's too bad, it sounds like she was a good friend, and good
> friends...have friends, and they have friends....
I am starting to realize that friends can drift apart over
time. People change, both of us have changed a lot over the last
decade.
> I'm sorry to hear your weekend was not so good, I hope your week is better
Thank you again.
--
BBJ
Jae
BobBillyJoe wrote:
> Never so much as kissed a woman or held hands with a woman in a
> romantic way. Kissing my aunt at the holidays does not count of
> course. :) It goes without saying that I am a virgin.
>
<snipped>
> No but it seems a huge hurdle for me to get over. Whichever woman is
> my 'first' girlfriend will have to be extremely understanding and
> patient with me. Maybe it is mostly in my mind not 'real' but a huge
> anxiety to worry about if I meet a woman.
>
>
I snipped because Solo is better prepared to answer you than I. I kept these
paragraphs because this is a problem for more men than you might think. This has
been discussed here previously, but there are new people here now and they might
benefit from further discussion of this.
It is not so bad for women to be virgins. Years ago, it was thought
desirable. Some of that still clings. Many men enjoy the thought of a
virgin.....to be first.....to teach......to be the first to give pleasure that can
be gotten in no other way.
What would make men think that a woman would not be as desirous of being the
first with a man.....to teach.....to be the first to give pleasure than can be
gotten in no other way?
I have spoken to many women purposely to get their answers to how they would
feel about this. I have yet to find one that says she would be adverse to it.
Many actually giggled and said they'd love it. I have asked women from the ages
of 22 to 70 as a matter of fact, and all the answers were the same. Not one woman
in this group, the last time it was discussed, came out and said that they would
shy from a man that was a virgin, either. There may be some now, but not then.
Yet you are anxious about it. Many men are. Many women are, too, before
their first time. *Everyone* was a virgin at one time.
There are more men in their 30's than I ever believed possible that have not
ever kissed a woman. They worry because they don't know how. Each time you kiss
someone, you learn again. I have never kissed two men who kiss exactly alike in
my life. (And no, we aren't going into how many that is, either) <smile> We
learn together how we like to kiss.
Your honesty is your shield. When you have dated a woman or "hung out" with
one, let them know that you have no experience with women. If you feel you would
like to kiss them, say, "You know, I'd love to kiss you, but I've never kissed
before and I don't know how." If they ask why, you just tell them. "It just
never happened. You tell me why." Once they know, they will be prepared to deal
with it.
They may not believe you at first. One reason is that some of y'all know that
it's a turn on for some women and they lie and say they are virgins. <laugh> To
them, you are wasting your best line. The fact that you don't know "how" is much
more "important" to you than it is to us. Jae
--
"Just you and me.....
On this island of hope....
A breath between us.....
Could be miles...
Sarah McLachlan
Frans
BobBillyJoe replies >... to my suggestions...>>
>> BBJ, you bring forward too many "....But's....".
>Yes, you are right.
Than you bring foward more "But.......'s"
>> You are darn right. Working on the outside doesn't help. You're
>> wrong in thinking that "a school of people teaching you how to
>> behave / act" would do the trick. Well, there are very good
acting
>> schools, but actors are often very lonely.
>
>And other actors have many friends, at least meet enough people so
>they _can_ make friends.
So have loyers, barkeepers, football players, street sweepers...
>
>Oh no, I am going to dismiss even more advice. :( I must disagree,
I
>do not think I should treat women and men the same. I would never
>flirt with a guy. I would flirt with platonic female friends.
Sorry,
>to me there is a difference.
Some women are searching for a male, so they like a flirt. Most
women have seen too many of it. It's a refreshment to them to meet a
person who doesn't flirt. If you are not able to make friends with
males, you cannot make friends with the ladies. But... you will have
another yes, but...
>Do you think all the men who get dates every week are somehow
>extremely interesting to all the women they meet, or do you think
these
>guys merely know how to talk to women? Have qualities women find
>attractive?
No those men don't appear 'hungry'. They take the person for what
she is. And it's a good feeling to feel accepted for what you are.
>
>> Forget all the reasons "why you can't make it..." Work on one
only
>> goal you are able to make. The next goals will come due.
>
>Yes yes I know, think positive. That is hard to do when I am near
>hopeless at times about my situation.
Without a plan it's too hard to do. Set one goal first.
Suggestion: "I'm going out and I have a good evening if two ladies
smile to me tonight..."
On another day: "I want one lady to say "hello" to me..."
Without a plan you'll need money to wait for the lady who'll say:
come with me..."
>Thank you for your feedback Frans.
If you don't see the message I'm giving, my feedback were only
words. In Holland homosexuals are accepted like every other human
being. My wife has many dear friends. Most male friends are
homosexual (artists). My wife finds it "very refreshing to talk with
males without being careful for what she's saying". She's brought
home when she goes out with their friends, and I feel at ease,
because she's brought home.
I work for several lesbian ladies, designing two magazines for
lesbian women. It's so refreshing for me to say "I like you" without
having to be careful I must explain why I don't want to jump into
bed with her.
So many women, also in your neighbourhood, are only looking for a
person to have a nice chat with. So (try to) be such a person. Later
the will be 'addicted' to those talking sessions and the give signs
they want more. Than it's your turn. Until so, be a friend. Most
wanted by females!
Hope I gave away a little good advise.
Frans
Jae
Frans wrote:
> Some women are searching for a male, so they like a flirt. Most
> women have seen too many of it. It's a refreshment to them to meet a
> person who doesn't flirt.
Just truly wished to speak to this part because I love to flirt.
<laugh> I love a man who knows how to flirt, too. I'm not searching
for a man, I just like to flirt. I know there are other women like me.
The flirting is harmless. It's meant to be fun and not lead anywhere.
I used to make sure that I went to this one store at a time I knew the
manager of the meat department was there because he knew how to flirt.
It would make my day to have that few minutes of fun and knowing that he
meant no more by it than I did. Most often, I don't even realize I do
it. It's just a part of me. But, I don't carry it to a point where I'd
have a problem with the man not knowing that it's only in fun. When a
man flirts with me, it makes me feel interesting and attractive and I
think it does the same for them when I flirt with them. Then again,
maybe I'm not "most women". <smile> Hugs, darlin'.......Jae
Jae
Frans wrote:
> I love to flirt. It's the honey in the yoghurt, the cream on the
> coffee. It's life at best! But I'm not looking for a companion. And
> I am able to withstand the person, who'll takes my flirting serious.
> From what I've seen, Jae, you don't do so bad either. You are right,
> very right. We are not "most humans"...
> Now, button up your blouse!
>
> Kissssssss - Frans
>
But....But....I always leave those two top buttons undone! <laugh>
Hugs, Jae
The e-mail of the species is more
deadly than the mail.
InvisibleMan
To be honest, no, it's not worth the effort to try. Why would I want
to give someone the chance to have power over me? Yeah, it's kind of a
crappy attitude, but it's how I see it. I absolutely refuse to compromise,
and that's not conducive to any sort of relationship with another human
being. I can honestly say that from the time I get home from work until I go
to bed I do not speak to another human being. It's great! I have total
autonomy. If I want to sit around in my underwear I can do it(and sometimes
do). If I don't want to shave on the weekends, I don't! I really don't see
the big fascination everyone has with "having someone". People, for the most
part, suck IMHO. Look around you---how many people are absolutely miserable
because of someone else? What's the divorce rate in the US--50%? That means
that one out of two people is miserable because of their relationship with
another human being. Those odds suck. I am totally satisfied with the
decision I've made. Sure, if an absolutely fantastic woman approached me for
meaningless sex I'd jump at the chance, but it's not likely to happen. I've
tried to find a reason to have a woman in my life, and I really can't see
the advantage over my current situation. Sure, there's the sex thing, but
that's it. I am an excellent cook, I keep my apartment spotless, I can do my
own laundry, and I even bake! I am quite witty, and well groomed, so I don't
need any help with that. What about companionship, you say? I have a cat who
is much more honest an affectionate than any woman ever has been to me.
She's happy to see me when I get home, and I don't have to worry about her
finding another owner behind my back. More people should do what I've done,
IMHO. It's very liberating. Can you imagine the freedom of being able to
walk into a store and not care what anyone thinks of you? Better yet, can
you imagine the satisfaction I get when a woman flirts with me and I TOTALLY
ignore her? Freedom, baby. It's great!
Mike
Frans
coffee. It's life at best! But I'm not looking for a companion. And
I am able to withstand the person, who'll takes my flirting serious.
From what I've seen, Jae, you don't do so bad either. You are right,
very right. We are not "most humans"...
Now, button up your blouse!
Kissssssss - Frans
Jae likes to flirt, thus writes>...
kur...@my-dejanews.com
Jae <Lad...@ccms.net> wrote:
> <snipped lots of good advice>
>
> Frans wrote:
>
> > Some women are searching for a male, so they like a flirt. Most
> > women have seen too many of it. It's a refreshment to them to meet a
> > person who doesn't flirt.
>
> Just truly wished to speak to this part because I love to flirt.
> <laugh> I love a man who knows how to flirt, too. I'm not searching
> for a man, I just like to flirt. I know there are other women like me.
> The flirting is harmless. It's meant to be fun and not lead anywhere.
> I used to make sure that I went to this one store at a time I knew the
> manager of the meat department was there because he knew how to flirt.
> It would make my day to have that few minutes of fun and knowing that he
> meant no more by it than I did. Most often, I don't even realize I do
> it. It's just a part of me. But, I don't carry it to a point where I'd
> have a problem with the man not knowing that it's only in fun. When a
> man flirts with me, it makes me feel interesting and attractive and I
> think it does the same for them when I flirt with them. Then again,
> maybe I'm not "most women". <smile> Hugs, darlin'.......Jae
I'm not sure how much of a minority you are. I think women as they get older
get more comfortable and flirt more. I don't flirt a lot, but I'm often too
stressed out to think that way! My mom, on the other hand flirts all the
time. She is just a really personable person -- one of those that will start
up a conversation with someone standing in line with her at the grocery store
or anything. Of course I think part of that is that she draws attention --
she's blind and has a Seeing Eye (R) dog, but even on the phone she flirts
openly.
Here's a funny little story abot her flirting:
I accidently got her hooked on some hot cinnamon gummy candies called
"Bangers". The grocery store where we first bought them stopped carrying them
because they didn't sell very well. So, the old telephone operator came out
in here and she decided to try order some so she started letting her fingers
do the walking. We first called the packager that was listed on the wrapper
and they sent up so some other company and I think from there we were sent to
the distributor. Well, she found out that the distributor was going to be
quitting the product. She got into a conversation with the guy about liking
them and he suggested she try hot tamales and she said she liked those too,
but they weren't the same. Somehow, the conversation turned to some "older"
topics and they discovered they were about the same age. She just kept up
her flirting. Three days later, UPS shows up on our doorstep and we hadn't
ordered anything -- it was a case of Bangers! The guy she flirted with on
the phone sent her an entire case! We gave her and my dad a lot shit about
that one. Teasing dad that he could never ever giver her a case of Bangers
and any other candy he'd buy for her wouldn't measure up, LOL! It was great.
Now, I just have to do that sort of thing a little more often. I am getting
much better at flirting than I was a couple years ago. Perhaps as you get
older you aren't as worried about people misreasing your actions? I'm only
good at flirting when it is with someone that I'm interested in. Just a
thought...
Kurki
Jae
kur...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
<smiling> I enjoyed your story, darlin'......and I do think you are right.
I'm not a young girl just finding her way. I know what I'm doing and how far I
wish to go before I even start. I'm confident that I won't be "rejected". If a
particular man did reject me, I don't truly think that would bother me. <laugh>
I'd assume there was something wrong with him, not with me. That does come from
interaction with men. After a while, you just "know". You know which men are
fun and can flirt or who will enjoy being flirted with even if they can't or
won't flirt back and which are the "old prune faces" and which would think you
were "coming on to them." You don't even think about it. Hugs, Jae
--
B4
Guess maybe we romantics kinda sorta envy that unemotional response..
Personally I am very independent.. quite able to take care of 4 kids, run a
business, maintain a large farmhouse, yard, garden, and little by little I
am learning how to make those needed repairs.. just got me some black and
Decker tools.. cool things they are.. lets see, I have tarred my roof, I
have repaired windows, caulking, insulation, plaster patched, love to paint,
can get a sump pump out of a well after I get a little help from my
friends.. and have fought.. and became victor recently over the plumbing..
yes.. I can take care of myself.. and I like sitting around in my robe and
nightie.. and sometimes.. I don't want to put on makeup or comb my hair..
and when I wish to go fishing or take a walk in the field.. I do so.. and
because my children are of me, I love them, and what I myself chose to have
in life, we try to give and take to each other.. it is what family is..
But.. though completely independent of man ..(this is where I envy your
brutal statements, forgive me for my underhanded comments. one of those
days..)
there are moments that a peace is felt missing from the puzzle. like the
strength of a man, ahh.. but my own boys will grow.. and yes they are giving
sharing people..and would help me as I weaken.. so.. never mind.. skip
that..
There are times when the sun rises.. and the mist covers the fields and the
birds begin to sing.. and as I stand there with peace filling my heart.. I
would wish for arms around me.. someone who would share the memmory.
subtance like the sunrise and the sunset.... Oh.. yes.. but you are right..
that feeling is transient.. and it passes.. independent people do not need
others.. maybe a man would stop watching sunrises anyway.. and the remote
would be so much more important than holding or talking to me or playing a
game of cards or just walking or talking and holding hands and making our
dreams reality together sharing a present and a future and then keeping
sweet memories of past..
There are holidays.. that kinda make me shaky inside.. like the Pre
Christmas cookie baking. the pizzels, the smells, the breads, the taffy
pulls and hard tack candy.. and the shared sort of feeling of sneaking
around finding the right gift to give someone you love.. and the fun of
building Christmas lists with my children.. and taking them all starry eyed
to see Santa Clause.. and yet the man.. who would wear the suit and on
Christmas eve.. meet me at the mistletoe.. sit at the fireside and talk
softly and gently.. help put children's gifts under the tree and share in
the magic and the laughter of the children as they rise with stars in their
eye.. ah.. but like you say.. that is a seasonal feeling.. it passes to..
and yet.. the memory would stay would it not though if there were one who
shared it with another..
As to the cooking and the cleaning.. I love to bake and cook but It would be
nice to have a companion who stood at the sink and washed dishes.. and
talked of his day and I of mine.. and I would love sometimes to have someone
else be thoughtful enough to bring me a plate of food when after a hard day
I have now collapsed on the chair..perhaps to rub my shoulders or pull their
fingers through my hair.. but.. again.. is this a reason to give up
independence.. because someone might care for you as you care for them..
naw.. your right.. better to be alone.. and just decide to skip the meal and
rest my eyes instead..
And in regards to the men out their.. why do I want to expose myself like a
rabbit to a pack of wolves..
give my most personal self and then watch them walk away.. that part of me
is for one.. not many..
but no.. I don't get a kick out of hurting another person should I be
approached.. or flirted with..
but.. hey.. I am independent.. and most only want that one night thing.. who
needs it, who needs touched.. right..
I found it is just best not to sleep at night.. or put the energy into some
kind of activity..
And yes.. I am of the 50% divorce rate .. but I have not hate of him nor him
for me.. neither of us deny the memories, nor the fact that had we not been
.. those 4 miracles would not exist.. and though he and I married more of
comfort than passion .. we had a shared time that should be respected and
not be forgotten.and because we were partners.. investments I made for us
and superior money management from the partnership.. ownership of certain
things..should be equally divided for it was built as a joint effort of 2
not one.. as for misery. naw.. survivor.. believer .. dreamer I am..
As for the animals.. yes.. they do give love.. and they are always there..
but um.. every 7 years about.. you can replace them.. but somehow.. though
soft and silky .. tis not the same.. for they are always needy of
attention.. while a Real live person.. they can take care of you.. as well
as you take care of them..
You are the owner, right.. but.. um.. men and woman are not the comparison
are they.. you do not own each other.. you share each others lives.. and of
course.. a relationship is only as good as what you wish to give to the
other.. for it is a partnership.. and yes.. even in business partnership
fail.. due to one party or both forgetting they are not a sole ownership but
a part of the partnership..
Freedom.. yes.. so true.. no bindings.. no feelings or emptiness.. no
loneliness..
Yes Invisible man.. you are to be envied for the denial of true feelings..
for all of us here feel the loneliness inside of us.. or we would not be
here.. would we..
Pamela
Ps.. It's a hit.. but no real offense is meant. just a reality check..
InvisibleMan <quie...@usa.net> wrote in message
news:7avuj4$490$1...@remarQ.com...
Karen Ronan
I'm joining this conversation a little late.
I don't think it takes a brilliant personality,
the right clothes, or other tactics to attract women.
The thing that attracts women (or anyone) to you is ultimately
your warmth, your lack of an agenda, your sincere interest in
her, knowing she is a vulnerable person and her feelings
and needs are important to you. If you fake this,
she'll know it, and it won't work. You have to actually be
open to her fears, her needs, her insecurities, her demands, her
anger, whatever is there. This goes for casual contacts
as well.If you feel open and compassionate toward all women, not
only if they can meet your need for a gf, but just for being alive,
you will become an interesting, intriguing and attractive man.
good luck, I think you can do this.
Karen
b...@bigfoot.com (BobBillyJoe) writes:
{snip}
> Finding the women and figuring out how to talk to them or why they do
> not seem to be interested are two different things. I have chances to
> meet plenty of women. Only rarely can I even talk to them, even when I
> do I cannot get past casual conversation.
{snip}
Frans
head... My wife just came out of bed to see where this noise came
from... I like your humour Karen. You should have a word with
Barbara here, because she likes to drill people.
Her words: "Honestly, I dont bite if you give me what I want."
Now and than I barrow a dog to stay with me, to keep me fit. This
dog (a he) has the same look on his face. But I can handle big mean
dogs.... <stil ROTFL>
Your advise is fine, dear. Sit up, do as I say and what I like and
I'll treat you well. May I keep your advice for a next newbie who
desperately needs a hint how to handle a lady..?
Thank you for being here...
Got to powder my nose now...
Frans <LOL>
Karen Ronan writes>...
>Hello BBJ,
>
>I'm joining this conversation a little late.
>
>I don't think it takes a brilliant personality,
>the right clothes, or other tactics to attract women.
>The thing that attracts women (or anyone) to you is ultimately
>your warmth, your lack of an agenda, your sincere interest in
>her, knowing she is a vulnerable person and her feelings
>and needs are important to you. If you fake this,
>she'll know it, and it won't work. You have to actually be
>open to her fears, her needs, her insecurities, her demands, her
>anger, whatever is there. This goes for casual contacts
>as well.If you feel open and compassionate toward all women, not
>only if they can meet your need for a gf, but just for being alive,
>you will become an interesting, intriguing and attractive man.
>
>good luck, I think you can do this.
>
>Karen
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>b...@bigfoot.com (BobBillyJoe) writes:
>
>{snip}
>
>> Finding the women and figuring out how to talk to them or why
they do
>> not seem to be interested are two different things. I have
chances to
>> meet plenty of women. Only rarely can I even talk to them, even
when I
>> do I cannot get past casual conversation.
>
>{snip}
BobBillyJoe
> Hello BBJ,
> I'm joining this conversation a little late.
> I don't think it takes a brilliant personality,
> the right clothes, or other tactics to attract women.
> The thing that attracts women (or anyone) to you is ultimately
> your warmth, your lack of an agenda, your sincere interest in
> her, knowing she is a vulnerable person and her feelings
> and needs are important to you.
Think your definitions of things differ from mine. What you call
'attract to' means to me 'want to be in a relationship with.'
To me 'attract' means simply you want to get to know that person, in a
romantic way, maybe later in a sexual way. This is all before anyone
knows if you are warm, have an agenda, or are sincere in your
interest. This is why people go on dates, to find these things out.
I have a problem just _getting_ dates. I am overly sensitive to
rejection, am terrified to express romantic interest in women. Most of
my dates in the last five years have been blind dates, through the
personals.
This is not to say I cannot _talk_ to women. I am not horribly shy. I
can hold my own fairly well in a conversation, with almost anyone,
though if I find myself overly attracted to a woman I tend to become
quite nervous around her. It is going that _next step_ toward asking
for a date or even her phone number I find difficult. Believe me, I
have heard the 'what have you got to lose?', 'you have to get ten no's
to get one yes', and 'so what if she says no?' advice many
times. Asking women out has not gotten easier over the years. I am
afraid.
Because I am so rejection-sensitive I look for signs from the woman
that she has _some_ interest in getting to know me, at least that she
might be available. Usually I get none. It is as if she is totally
uninterested or she is unwilling to show any interest and let me do
all the work, crawl out on the limb and take a chance. I do understand
it is the _guy_ who is supposed to be the aggressor, show interest in
the woman and ask her out. I understand that guys who are successful
with women approach women and ask them out matter-of-factly, and they
say no the guy just moves on. I wish I could do that, so far it has
never been like that with me.
Even if I get dates I get so little information from them that I have
no idea whether they are interested in continuing to get to know me or
not. Usually I find out only when they stop returning phone calls or
make excuses. Of course many women now expect a guy to move fast, even
if she does not want to. One friend told me, if a guy did not try to
kiss her on the first date, then he was not interested in her. Well I
would not try! I need more time to get to know someone first.
I met a woman a few months ago at a friend's party. Asked my friend
later if the woman was single. She was. Told my friend it was OK to
give her my phone number. Woman told my friend she wanted me to have
_her_ number did not want mine. Hmm, old fashioned? So I
called. Interesting chat on the phone. Sure she would like to get
together for coffee or a bite sometime but she was busy with work for
the next week, had no time. OK, I said, call me when you get free
time. Sure, she said.
Couple of weeks go by, I never hear from her. I call her again. She is
out but returns my call a few days later. Oh, work changed, she has
had freetime again. I do not say it but wonder why she never
called. We chat a little more, then she says she is tired and needs to
hang up. No mention of our going out, so I remind her, and she says
she is busy tomorrow...and I say well, will have to do it sometime,
and we hang up.
If this woman was interested in me she had a strange way of showing
it. I think she thought was a nice person, was polite to return my
calls - also I am her friend's friend - but had no interest in dating
me. I was looking for some hint that she wanted to get to know me
better, I could find none. Sure had I pushed she would have gone out
with me - I have since learned most women will politely go out with
almost anyone once, assuming he is not an ax murderer - but I could
not handle getting to some point in the evening and hearing, ya know
Bob, you are a really nice guy but...
Back to your comments:
> The thing that attracts women (or anyone) to you is ultimately
> your warmth, your lack of an agenda, your sincere interest in
> her, knowing she is a vulnerable person and her feelings
> and needs are important to you. If you fake this, she'll know it,
> and it won't work.
Again regarding getting into a relationship - yes. But guys 'fake
interest' all the time to get women into bed, and women fall for it
all the time. I am not looking to meet women for casual encounters,
but I want women to find me attractive so when I ask them out they will
be _happy_ about it, not trying to be polite or not want to hurt my
feelings.
Only after she gets to know me can she know if I am sincere and warm
and have no 'agenda.' She cannot read my mind. But she has to be
_interested_ in getting to know me before she can find this out. I
feel women like me as a person but have no romantic interest in
me. Like I am asexual to them.
> You have to actually be
> open to her fears, her needs, her insecurities, her demands, her
> anger, whatever is there. This goes for casual contacts
> as well.If you feel open and compassionate toward all women, not
> only if they can meet your need for a gf, but just for being alive,
> you will become an interesting, intriguing and attractive man.
Nah...I just do not buy it. :( I think if a woman is not attracted to
you, she is not attracted to you, not matter how open and
compassionate you seem. True guys who are confident and persistent can
sometimes win over a reluctant woman but I feel light years away from
doing something like that.
Look, I know some of you get frustrated that I seem to dismiss every
suggestion you make. It is difficult to describe my situation in
writing, you have no idea what I am like in real life. Part of my
rejecting advice is that I have probably tried it, or I do not want to
keep trying it because I see other guys do not have to resort to such
things - and I assume they do not go to the root of my problem. I want
to be not like Don Juan who gets lots of dates but like the average
guy who can get dates regularly even if not often, who has
relationships at least once in a while. These guys certainly are not
perfect and they manage. Why should I have to work so hard? I am so
discouraged it is hard to 'work' on dating at all - if I keep failing
what is the incentive to keep trying? If you fall off the horse, you
get right back on, but damn I am getting a little sore!
Well thank you all again for you advice, I know you are trying to
help. But I still have no idea what to do about this, no concrete
ideas anyway.
--
BBJ
B4
It flirting that you can talk the wind to anyone..
Then I guess I do.. but I do not think of it as flirting.
and things like that happen to me, but I think of it as thoughfulness..
I am not one who can just um.. stand silently by I guess..
I can stand in a grocery store and talk to people I have never met..
and they tell me their life story.. and delivery people always take a moment
to come in and giggle about silliness or vent about a situation..
I have been known though to send a silliness through the mail,
or have something delivered to another..
and if and when I go shopping.. I see things and think.. so and so might
like this..
and mayhap I buy it.. or I tell them where I have seen it for them..
But alas.. when I try and escape to go dancing.. and get brave enough to go
inside alone ..
I jump in and ask a whole bunch ladies if I can join them.. for all of my
friends are married.. do not go out..
I would usually end up hearing someone's, life story instead of the romantic
stuff..
but.. I have a great first line kinda self protection..
I say I have escaped from my 4 children for the night and I am here to burn
energy in dancing ..
(you know.. that line works so well for the wolves.. *Fear of
Responsibility* .. )
Sometimes.. there are pros and cons to working from the home.. and not
meeting others often..
Pamela
<kur...@my-dejanews.com> wrote in message
news:7b0ve5$iqh$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
>In article <36D2E889...@ccms.net>,
> Jae <Lad...@ccms.net> wrote:
>> <snipped lots of good advice>
>>
>> Frans wrote:
>>
>> > Some women are searching for a male, so they like a flirt. Most
>> > women have seen too many of it. It's a refreshment to them to meet a
>> > person who doesn't flirt.
>>
>> Just truly wished to speak to this part because I love to flirt.
>> <laugh> I love a man who knows how to flirt, too. I'm not searching
>> for a man, I just like to flirt. I know there are other women like me.
>> The flirting is harmless. It's meant to be fun and not lead anywhere.
>> I used to make sure that I went to this one store at a time I knew the
>> manager of the meat department was there because he knew how to flirt.
>> It would make my day to have that few minutes of fun and knowing that he
>> meant no more by it than I did. Most often, I don't even realize I do
>> it. It's just a part of me. But, I don't carry it to a point where I'd
>> have a problem with the man not knowing that it's only in fun. When a
>> man flirts with me, it makes me feel interesting and attractive and I
>> think it does the same for them when I flirt with them. Then again,
>> maybe I'm not "most women". <smile> Hugs, darlin'.......Jae
>
>I'm not sure how much of a minority you are. I think women as they get
older
Celebok
> I am an excellent cook, I keep my apartment spotless, I can do my
> own laundry, and I even bake!
Now THAT I'm impressed with! My apartment's a mess, because there's
nothing to motivate me to clean it, except when people come over, which
only happens about three times a year. I wish I had that kind of
self-discipline to keep my apartment in top condition or learn how to
cook more than three things.
--Capt. Celebok
http://home.earthlink.net/~celebok
Frans
(see down under....)
Celebok writes>...
>
>My apartment's a mess, because there's
>nothing to motivate me to clean it, except when people come over,
which
>only happens about three times a year. I wish I had that kind of
>self-discipline to keep my apartment in top condition or learn how
to
>cook more than three things.
>
>--Capt. Celebok
It's the Tax-collector.....
(see down under....)
The most pretty female tax-collector you've ever seen!
Have fun
Frans
Karen Ronan
you aren't ready for a relationship yet. Have you considered
bolstering your self-esteem through therapy and finding out what
is distorted in your thinking and what is real? I get a feeling
that there is a lot of fantasizing going on, and it fuels the
anxiety.
Karen
Karen
brwr...@mindspring.com
(the newsgroup to which Capt. Celebok posted this message, originally).
In article <36D589...@earthlink.net>,
cel...@earthlink.net wrote:
> InvisibleMan wrote:
> > I am an excellent cook, I keep my apartment spotless, I can do my
> > own laundry, and I even bake!
>
> Now THAT I'm impressed with! My apartment's a mess, because there's
> nothing to motivate me to clean it, except when people come over, which
> only happens about three times a year. I wish I had that kind of
> self-discipline to keep my apartment in top condition or learn how to
> cook more than three things.
Well, back to what was apparently the original topic:
It can be a real relief to keep your distance from humankind for a while -
hours, days, or weeks at a time! Solitude can be wonderful.
As for me, I usually keep my room clean (in the house I share with two other
housemates), but sometimes it looks like a wreck (a real shocker for me, a
recovering "neat freak").
I can cook more than three things - mostly low-fat stir-fried food (more
cooking sherry than cooking oil, that's for sure). Maybe, thanks to
"Vegetarian Times" magazine, I'll learn how to cook even more stuff!
=========
Since you usually end your posts (at least your TCR reports) with something
like, "The key to..." whatever, I'll add one:
"The key to good chocolate chip cookies is...applesauce!"
(as a substitute for cooking oil).
They're *great* that way! :)
the tree by the river
> cel...@earthlink.net wrote:
>> InvisibleMan wrote:
>> > I am an excellent cook, I keep my apartment spotless, I can do my
>> > own laundry, and I even bake!
>>
>> Now THAT I'm impressed with! My apartment's a mess, because there's
>> nothing to motivate me to clean it, except when people come over, which
>> only happens about three times a year.
Well, there's a technique that might work--while I prefer to keep my
place pretty tidy, I do find that entertaining provides a good excuse
to give the treehouse a more thorough cleaning. (Not that I don't have
other reasons for having parties, hosting board meetings and
conferences, etc., mind you.)
>> I wish I had that kind of
>> self-discipline to keep my apartment in top condition or learn how to
>> cook more than three things.
Cooking's pretty easy--but if you don't have anyone else around to
cook for, it might be harder to motivate yourself to do much cooking.
I used to do a whole lot more--made cakes, cookies, pies, and so forth
on about a weekly basis when I was in school and had a convenient
bunch of people eager to scarf down such things, but unless I'm on
one of my experimental cooking/recipe development binges, there's not
much reason for me to do much cooking (especially when the main
result might well just be that I'd run out of freezer space).
I figure the toughest part about keeping one's abode tidy is just
getting it there to begin with. Once it's reasonably organized,
maintaining the lack-of-mess is easy enough. Sometimes I'm busy
enough that it starts to run away from me a little, but that bugs
me enough that I'll have to clean it just for my own peace of mind.
>Well, back to what was apparently the original topic:
>
>It can be a real relief to keep your distance from humankind for a while -
>hours, days, or weeks at a time! Solitude can be wonderful.
>
>As for me, I usually keep my room clean (in the house I share with two other
>housemates), but sometimes it looks like a wreck (a real shocker for me, a
>recovering "neat freak").
Not having roommates (or any other kind of mate) undoubtedly makes it
a lot easier. Since I'm the only one dirtying laundry, foodying plates,
using cookware, building electronic and mechanical devices, and so on,
it probably takes about a quarter of the time and effort to keep things
neat than if I have someone else to clean up after too (since I know my
own "system" for cleaning and organizing).
>I can cook more than three things - mostly low-fat stir-fried food (more
>cooking sherry than cooking oil, that's for sure). Maybe, thanks to
>"Vegetarian Times" magazine, I'll learn how to cook even more stuff!
< http://www.fatfree.com > has a searchable database with a huge
collection of nonfat and low-fat recipes if memory serves; that's
another good place to look.
>Since you usually end your posts (at least your TCR reports) with something
>like, "The key to..." whatever, I'll add one:
>
>"The key to good chocolate chip cookies is...applesauce!"
>(as a substitute for cooking oil).
>They're *great* that way! :)
Never tried applesauce in chocolate chip cookies. Some of the fruit-based
baby foods work really well as fat substitutes--and in fruit breads, using
mashed bananas work extremely well. (I've put one of my recipes for my
nonfat banana-blueberry bread in the recipe section of my webpage and most
people like it better than the versions made with butter or shortening.)
--
Soc.singles FAQ: < http://www.trygve.com/ssfaq.html > || "A minor setback..."
Personal webpage: < http://www.trygve.com > || -- Evil the Cat
Trygve Lode, president, Nyx Net, public access internet < http://www.nyx.net >
"Some say prayers, some say prayers...I say, 'Mine.'" -- SoM
Solo
Your advice is outstanding.
I highly second it.
Solo
Karen Ronan wrote in message +ADw-7b1hg0+ACQ-mi0+ACQ-1+AEA-carroll.library.ucla.edu+AD4-...
+AD4-Hello BBJ,
+AD4-
+AD4-I'm joining this conversation a little late.
+AD4-
+AD4-I don't think it takes a brilliant personality,
+AD4-the right clothes, or other tactics to attract women.
+AD4-The thing that attracts women (or anyone) to you is ultimately
+AD4-your warmth, your lack of an agenda, your sincere interest in
+AD4-her, knowing she is a vulnerable person and her feelings
+AD4-and needs are important to you. If you fake this,
+AD4-she'll know it, and it won't work. You have to actually be
+AD4-open to her fears, her needs, her insecurities, her demands, her
+AD4-anger, whatever is there. This goes for casual contacts
+AD4-as well.If you feel open and compassionate toward all women, not
+AD4-only if they can meet your need for a gf, but just for being alive,
+AD4-you will become an interesting, intriguing and attractive man.
+AD4-
+AD4-good luck, I think you can do this.
+AD4-
+AD4-Karen
+AD4-
+AD4-
+AD4-
+AD4-
+AD4-
+AD4-
+AD4-
+AD4-
+AD4-bbj+AEA-bigfoot.com (BobBillyJoe) writes:
+AD4-
+AD4Aew-snip+AH0-
+AD4-
+AD4APg- Finding the women and figuring out how to talk to them or why they do
+AD4APg- not seem to be interested are two different things. I have chances to
+AD4APg- meet plenty of women. Only rarely can I even talk to them, even when I
+AD4APg- do I cannot get past casual conversation.
+AD4-
+AD4Aew-snip+AH0-
+AD4-
+AD4APg- Thank you, I do think I am interesting to talk to and intelligent, you
+AD4APg- would probably enjoy talking with me at a party. Question is would you
+AD4APg- remember me +AF8-after+AF8- the party? When you think of doing fun stuff would
+AD4APg- you want to invite me? Based on how my friends treat me I would say
+AD4APg- generally 'no.' Not that my friends do not want me around, I am just
+AD4APg- not an attractive personality, the kind you want to be around. That is
+AD4APg- what I mean by 'draw.' Some people have engaging personalities, so do
+AD4APg- not. I see the same thing in other people.