How does a loser like me get a life?
Truthseeker
Everybody always avoids me unconditionally under all circumstances and by that
definition there is nothing I can do about it. It's not what I do. It's who I
am. It's what I am. I am that which must be avoided at all costs, regardless
of what I do or how I act.
Is there anything I can do about it?
Someone please answer me, though I know no one who knows me will answer this
because they know I'm absolutely hopeless in every way whatsoever and there is
no reason to respond to a hopeless person who should be dead. Everybody here
and everywhere else wants to send me a message that it's okay to kill myself
because there is no hope for me, but they don't know how to do it without
feeling malicious, evil, and guilty.
Can anybody give me any advice on how to be attractive? I doubt it. But please
try in your deepest heart of hearts and mind of minds. I am at a crossroads
where I know what I must do now. I am not serviceable to the population or to
myself, or to the world... or to the one-ness of the universe, except in death.
I ask one last time. Can anybody give me advice, or help me in any way? Thank
you deeply in advance to anyone who even tries. To even try, knowing what a
great waste of time and effort it is, is a true indication that you are part of
this world where I am not.
Chris DuBose - truth-seeker, outspoken advocate for lonely hearts, and
computer science graduate of Cal Poly Pomona
email: cdu...@mindspring.com
http://www.mindspring.com/~cdubose
Fan of Queen, Xena, Angband, Star Trek, Seattle, and Torey Hayden
"If you're feeling kinda nothing, don't try so hard" - Queen - Innuendo
Frans
<37a2d628...@news.mindspring.com>...
>Someone please tell me. I'm serious.
>
>Everybody always avoids me unconditionally under all circumstances and by
that
>definition there is nothing I can do about it. It's not what I do. It's
who I
>am. It's what I am. I am that which must be avoided at all costs,
regardless
>of what I do or how I act.
>
>Is there anything I can do about it?
>
>Someone please answer me, though I know no one who knows me will answer
this
>because they know I'm absolutely hopeless in every way whatsoever and
there is
>no reason to respond to a hopeless person who should be dead. Everybody
here
>and everywhere else wants to send me a message that it's okay to kill
myself
>because there is no hope for me, but they don't know how to do it without
>feeling malicious, evil, and guilty.
Since we don't know you in real life, we cannot know if you are absolutely
hopeless. So until proven you are, I consider you as a person who wants
advice. We do have two other persons called Chris, so I baptise you know
Chris DB (please, accept) :))
Since you haven't found a reason for living, there couldn't be a reason to
die now. We skip that subject.
>Can anybody give me any advice on how to be attractive? I doubt it. But
please
>try in your deepest heart of hearts and mind of minds. I am at a
crossroads
>where I know what I must do now. I am not serviceable to the population
or to
>myself, or to the world... or to the one-ness of the universe, except in
death.
Who is able to give a definition what attractiveness is? Magazines lie
about this, films lie. Everybody loved Quasimoto in Notre Dame's
bell-ringer, didn't we?
What is unattractive?
Not body weight. I've seen unattractive persons, skinny and/or fat. So we
forget weight. Smell is important. We have to be clean at all times. So
use soap in the morning while having a shower and wash yourself in every
little space of the body. If you sweat easy, you'll have to shower more
often, change clothes more often. Persons with a strong personal smell are
avoided by most everyone.
Don't use deodorant, but wash. If you leave home, you could bring a
deodorant with you, but a shower is always better.
If the clothes you wear aren't too old, i.e. worn out, the should be ok.
Hairstyle: any style is accepted nowadays, as long it's clean.
Conclusion: If you are clean there is no other reason for any person to
avoid your company.
You write well. If you speak the way you write, nothing is wrong with you.
Minimise "strong" language, avoid screaming or shouting. Use questionmarks
a lot, instead of exclamation marks. (My writing her is in exclamation
marks and it's really offensive for many persons. Why I do it? It's me.
And it is to demonstrate how terrible this sounds. A "somebody-knows-all"
I
do know nothing, and just try to help you.
Please, look in the mirror. Do you see a happy face? If not, the next time
you go out the door, put on your happy face, bent your shoulders back and
tell yourself "I'm the best"!
You know this isn't the truth. But you should also know that telling
yourself you are a nobody is also not the truth, while that doesn't help.
Please, try to fool people in a positive manner. At least it helps you.
>I ask one last time. Can anybody give me advice, or help me in any way?
Thank
>you deeply in advance to anyone who even tries. To even try, knowing
what a
>great waste of time and effort it is, is a true indication that you are
part of
>this world where I am not.
>
>
>Chris DuBose - truth-seeker, outspoken advocate for lonely hearts, and
> computer science graduate of Cal Poly Pomona
Frans, Dutch male.
Your name = Harvey
We are born to live, and not to die.
We all have our tasks before us, and in being born
we accept the tasks before us.
Whether you choose to attempt to do them, is up to you.
Of course, we forget why we are here, and so we discover ourselves,
and our mission upon this earth.
Yes, loneliness can drive you to depression and perhaps even suicide.
I do think awareness is the key - that can unlock many doors for you.
Become aware of who you really are, discover yourself.
Seeking truth is worthwhile for sure.
Go and seek it.
What is truth for you?
Be yourself and you will be attractive, true to your nature.
Be presentable, be nice, be able to be yourself.
You want people to like you for who you are.
Do not put on a false face, and don't try to be someone you're not.
There will be people who will like you, for who you are.
Life is a mystery.
And your own life can be a mystery.
But it need not be so.
If you pay respect to everyone, including yourself,
you will get far.
And as for the women, I think you will meet them for sure.
And one day, you will meet someone special [and perhaps more than one?],
wouldn't it be nice to stick around, so that these meetings can take
place?
Cheers
Harvey
Lin
one thing.
>
>Everybody always avoids me unconditionally under all circumstances
I know it maybe of small comfort, here we are nog avoiding you. You are
truly 'one of us'. We like you and respect you. Please let this be a start,
whenever you feel bad. Think about us....there are actually people that care
about you.
Perhaps you think I would not care about you, if I would meet you in RL.
That is a misunderstanding. When I like people, I like them, nothing will
ever change that, not looks, not shyness, nothing......
Hugs
Lin
solit...@my-deja.com
the moment, then you shouldn't read any further. After reading this
post I went back and read some of the ones you've written prior to this
and quickly realized that what you really need is what we used to refer
to as "a good swift kick in the ass."
Okay. You ready? Here's my 12-step program for you:
1) Stop whining. Just STOP. An occasional bout isn't bad, but from
what I've read, it's all that you do.
2) Stop being so negative about other people. In the few of your
messages I went back and read, it was easy to see that you tend to put
other groups down quickly. You referred to the people in
alt.support.depression as "jerks" and I'm not even going to go into what
you implied about autistic people. Nobody wants to be around someone
who is always putting down other groups. Personally, any chance of me
and you being RL friends would have been gone as soon as you started off
on the autistic people -- and frankly, if that had been in person, me
and you would have had some serious words that evening. The bottom line
is though, that putting down other groups will not endear you to anyone.
3) Stop being so negative about yourself. You repeatedly go around
calling yourself a "loser" and saying your "hopeless." Would you want
to be around someone who did that? (If you answer is "yes" then you
need to, in the words of Henry Messenger, "put the crack pipe down and
take three steps back.")
[Henry, if you're reading this, I meant to drop you a note to tell you
how much I enjoyed that line in particular and the whole way that you
explained ARPAnet, but I just did not get there.]
4) Try focusing on positive things for a change. I believe it was
Barbara (sorry if I'm wrong, but I'm having trouble keeping names
straight) who suggested each day writing down five good things that
happened to you. That's a good idea, try it. Then stick with it.
5) Try saying something nice to people not even once and a while but
often. When was the last time you actually paid somebody a compliment?
I'm not only talking in asl, but in the real world. If you make people
feel good about themselves, then they will want to be around you. But
whatever you do, don't follow up your compliment to them with an insult
to yourself (i.e., "Gee, Solitude, you're so wise, smart and handsome.
I wish I could be like you, but I'm a loser.") "Compliments" like that
are not something that people will want to receive.
6) Try to be a little less self-absorbed. The one thing that struck me
in reading your replies to other people's posts is that you managed to
bring it back completely to yourself. For example, in your reply to
Jenn's "Vent (long and boring)," all you did was talk about yourself (in
negative terms) and how even if you had talked to the person it just
would have led to rejection. So try spending a little less time
focusing on your own shortcomings and problems. People won't want to
talk to you if you are that self-absorbed.
7) Do *something* to try to improve your self image each day. Actually
try to take positive steps towards making yourself a better person.
When was the last time you actually did something like that and stayed
with it?
8) Realize that there will be setbacks along the way, but that if you
have faith and stay the course, you can become the person you want to
be. On this point, I recommend you read Confused's post "An Anwer
(semi-long)" and Awen's response to it.
9) Realize that it *IS* what you DO and not who you ARE. You need to
get out of the victim-mentality that Confused wrote about. You are not
lonely because of your genetics.
10) Take a bath. I don't know if this will help, but Frans was right so
it's worth a shot.
11) Mind how you present yourself. Are you clothes dishevelled? Do
they match? How you present yourself is a signal of the amount of
respect you have for yourself and the two often have a positive feedback
going. People who are confident generally dress better. People who
dress better generally feel more confident Repeat as desired.
12) Read Dale Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People." I
don't like, or generally read, self-help books. This one is different.
It was actually written to help salesmen make a good impression on
people that they have never met. If you are someone who lacks "da'
social skills" this is a book you should read. It will help you make a
better first impression. And that is a start.
The conclusion is that you have the power to change. If you drop this
victim mentality and start to take positive steps to make your life
better, you *can* do it -- you just have to get with the program.
Of course, doing nothing is easier and being alone is generally more
comfortable than risking the possibility of rejection. So maybe all of
this is unnecessary.
The choice is entirely your own.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
David
you and your bound to get people of similar interests responding to you.
My 2 cents
Eleonore Beaudoin
Yo, Seeker,
Hm....
Those are quite "metaphisical" sort of questions, linked to
"who am I, what is my purpose in life" etc....
Nothing that one can answer in a day...In fact, I think no
one so far coudl answer thse in millenaries. They even make
a science of the flunked answers called philosophy:):).
Well, for one thing, you see to write very well, and if I
may say, given such a dark subject, still show a sense of
humour!:) Just the images you make here or there are
poignant and just....again, donlt readme wrong, but ,
showing a pelasant side of you. Not the depressed suicidal
one, the one that "puts you down" in such images and words:)....
You seem to have writign abilities! I then can hope that you
maybe woud want to consider that as a quality. I know...The
subject si not pink (no pun here to old asl-ers (they used
to segregate me cause I had pink panties (JOKE(!:)):)) , but
exactly: if one can write so well at such a time, heck,they
have soemthign better than me.....
Then that means you have ioen less reasong to suicide than I
would, and thatv you hagve till the end to obey the order of
things;-) (kidding, tryiogn to make you smile:)), and then
have to get in line and take a number: you cna not suicide
before I woudl: your doing so woudl otherwise be voiding all
I ever still woudl live for:):), since you ahve more talent
than I in writign (everyone will agree!) and since then if
yours is worth death, then mine is not worthy of teh same
treatment or soemthign liek that?:);-)
So there only is one solution to all tis I am afraid: you
just can notsuicide before anyone that ahs less ualities
than you do. And sinceI am not about to suicide, might as well
not throw away your electric shave kit and empty your bank
account and all that....
I am knon t be a slow mover, and could take forever to
suicide:):), startign with feeling liek it at all....:(
I then am afraid the only news I can give you are
depressing ones: you have to wait for me to maybe think of
suicide one day before you coudl yourself, and since I am
not about to, you thus ar conddemned to live....atleast til
I die...:)
Or to give me writign lessons until I would be better than
you, so that then you could skip me in the ranks...
;-)
How about a coffee to kill time meanwhile...?;-)
Sugar?
Milk?
Or would you prefer a peach juice?
More seriously......
I have no words to write to answer such questions....
I only have feelings to answer them with.......
........
(((((((((((((((Seeker))))))))))))))))))
Be here tomorrow still? I like your posts, as you maybe got
to guess......
Ad you know I mean it and am not saying this so you woudl
not suicide, cause accoreing to the rasoning above, I'd be
dead by then, so....
Are you in Florida? Is not mindspring from that area often....?
Chloe
Truthseeker
(truths...@mindspring.com)
writes: > Someone please tell me. I'm serious.
>
> Everybody always avoids me unconditionally under all circumstances and by that
> definition there is nothing I can do about it. It's not what I do. It's who I
> am. It's what I am. I am that which must be avoided at all costs, regardless
> of what I do or how I act.
>
> Is there anything I can do about it?
>
> Someone please answer me, though I know no one who knows me will answer this
> because they know I'm absolutely hopeless in every way whatsoever and there is
> no reason to respond to a hopeless person who should be dead. Everybody here
> and everywhere else wants to send me a message that it's okay to kill myself
> because there is no hope for me, but they don't know how to do it without
> feeling malicious, evil, and guilty.
>
> Can anybody give me any advice on how to be attractive? I doubt it. But please
> try in your deepest heart of hearts and mind of minds. I am at a crossroads
> where I know what I must do now. I am not serviceable to the population or to
> myself, or to the world... or to the one-ness of the universe, except in death.
>
> I ask one last time. Can anybody give me advice, or help me in any way? Thank
> you deeply in advance to anyone who even tries. To even try, knowing what a
> great waste of time and effort it is, is a true indication that you are part of
> this world where I am not.
>
>
> Chris DuBose - truth-seeker, outspoken advocate for lonely hearts, and
> computer science graduate of Cal Poly Pomona
>
Jenn
>in reading your replies to other people's posts is that you managed to
>bring it back completely to yourself. For example, in your reply to
>Jenn's "Vent (long and boring)," all you did was talk about yourself (in
>negative terms) and how even if you had talked to the person it just
>would have led to rejection. So try spending a little less time
>focusing on your own shortcomings and problems. People won't want to
>talk to you if you are that self-absorbed.
I do understand what you are saying, Solitude....
something to think about at least...
"You can't save somebody from drowning if you're treading water yourself"-Eddie
Vedder
I know your post was a genuine attempt to help truthseeker..and hey maybe it
will..but ...some of the ways in which you said things..seem to be quite harsh.
We're all just trying to get by ...some of us are better than others. Some of
us are better at hiding it than others. I hope you understand I mean no offense
... Just wanted to put this "out there"...{{solitude}}
Regards, Jenn
http://members.aol.com/jeneve23/enter.html
- - -
Sadness is but a wall between two gardens. --Kahlil Gibran
King
Hi Solitude and Truthseeker!!
Thanks for your excellent post, Solitude. I'm carrying it in full for
Truthseeker, as you haven't mailed it.
Solitude, you're very wise, I wish I could be like you, but I'm a
loser... opps... just kidding! *chuckle*
Seriously, read and enjoyed your post.
Truthseeker, I've started to suspect that you're playing the mind-game
"I'm a loser, you must pity me!" rather than asking for solutions.
This also in view of the fact that you didn't consider my reply on
Gillberg's Criteria, that contained criticism on your self-diagnosis
of Asperger's disorder. You preferred to dwell on it, as a scientific
justification of your being a "loser".
If I'm correct, I understand that this is a bad habit of you rather
than a deliberate attempt to make us waste our time. However,
please consider that other people is here, genuinely looking for
advice.
More...
On Sat, 31 Jul 1999 18:39:27 GMT, solit...@my-deja.com wrote:
>Let me start out by saying that if you're in a fragile state of mind at
>the moment, then you shouldn't read any further. After reading this
>post I went back and read some of the ones you've written prior to this
>and quickly realized that what you really need is what we used to refer
>to as "a good swift kick in the ass."
>
>Okay. You ready? Here's my 12-step program for you:
>
>1) Stop whining. Just STOP. An occasional bout isn't bad, but from
>what I've read, it's all that you do.
Ok.
>2) Stop being so negative about other people. In the few of your
>messages I went back and read, it was easy to see that you tend to put
>other groups down quickly. You referred to the people in
>alt.support.depression as "jerks" and I'm not even going to go into what
>you implied about autistic people. Nobody wants to be around someone
>who is always putting down other groups. Personally, any chance of me
>and you being RL friends would have been gone as soon as you started off
>on the autistic people -- and frankly, if that had been in person, me
>and you would have had some serious words that evening. The bottom line
>is though, that putting down other groups will not endear you to anyone.
I may have missed something re the autistic people. Do you mean the
"Asperger's Syndrome" issue? In this case, Truthseeker has already
clarified the misunderstanding. For the rest, I agree with you.
>3) Stop being so negative about yourself. You repeatedly go around
>calling yourself a "loser" and saying your "hopeless." Would you want
>to be around someone who did that? (If you answer is "yes" then you
>need to, in the words of Henry Messenger, "put the crack pipe down and
>take three steps back.")
>
>[Henry, if you're reading this, I meant to drop you a note to tell you
>how much I enjoyed that line in particular and the whole way that you
>explained ARPAnet, but I just did not get there.]
Ok.
>4) Try focusing on positive things for a change. I believe it was
>Barbara (sorry if I'm wrong, but I'm having trouble keeping names
>straight) who suggested each day writing down five good things that
>happened to you. That's a good idea, try it. Then stick with it.
I'm not sure, but this is likely.
>5) Try saying something nice to people not even once and a while but
>often. When was the last time you actually paid somebody a compliment?
>I'm not only talking in asl, but in the real world. If you make people
>feel good about themselves, then they will want to be around you. But
>whatever you do, don't follow up your compliment to them with an insult
>to yourself (i.e., "Gee, Solitude, you're so wise, smart and handsome.
>I wish I could be like you, but I'm a loser.") "Compliments" like that
>are not something that people will want to receive.
Ok.
>6) Try to be a little less self-absorbed. The one thing that struck me
>in reading your replies to other people's posts is that you managed to
>bring it back completely to yourself. For example, in your reply to
>Jenn's "Vent (long and boring)," all you did was talk about yourself (in
>negative terms) and how even if you had talked to the person it just
>would have led to rejection. So try spending a little less time
>focusing on your own shortcomings and problems. People won't want to
>talk to you if you are that self-absorbed.
Ok.
>7) Do *something* to try to improve your self image each day. Actually
>try to take positive steps towards making yourself a better person.
>When was the last time you actually did something like that and stayed
>with it?
>
>8) Realize that there will be setbacks along the way, but that if you
>have faith and stay the course, you can become the person you want to
>be. On this point, I recommend you read Confused's post "An Anwer
>(semi-long)" and Awen's response to it.
Ok.
>9) Realize that it *IS* what you DO and not who you ARE. You need to
>get out of the victim-mentality that Confused wrote about. You are not
>lonely because of your genetics.
Ok.
>10) Take a bath. I don't know if this will help, but Frans was right so
>it's worth a shot.
Yep, I've enjoyed that post. And at least, no side effects! :o)
>11) Mind how you present yourself. Are you clothes dishevelled? Do
>they match? How you present yourself is a signal of the amount of
>respect you have for yourself and the two often have a positive feedback
>going. People who are confident generally dress better. People who
>dress better generally feel more confident Repeat as desired.
>
>12) Read Dale Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People." I
>don't like, or generally read, self-help books. This one is different.
>It was actually written to help salesmen make a good impression on
>people that they have never met. If you are someone who lacks "da'
>social skills" this is a book you should read. It will help you make a
>better first impression. And that is a start.
>
>The conclusion is that you have the power to change. If you drop this
>victim mentality and start to take positive steps to make your life
>better, you *can* do it -- you just have to get with the program.
>
>Of course, doing nothing is easier and being alone is generally more
>comfortable than risking the possibility of rejection. So maybe all of
>this is unnecessary.
>
>The choice is entirely your own.
>
>
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
All the best
Raffaele
<http://www.angelfire.com/mi/raffaele55/>
Unicorn
Second of all, you have value and you have worth... got it..
and from what I can see from your Web pages, you have intelligence also..
All of us at one time or another have felt that inside isolation that
comes from the depth of loneliness.. here now is where you come from I
think.. it is reflected to others, it is perceived though we hide it in
real life..
I think dear truth seeker before any of your minds questions can be
answered that some must be answered in reply so we can help you..
Who do you believe avoids you? One sex.. both sexes..
what do they do that you feel that they are avoiding you.. give us
an example situation..
Are they avoiding you.. or are you over reacting based on right
now.. a feeling of not knowing exactly who you are inside perhaps..
If they avoid you.. is it based on words that you say, how you
look or how you react to their words..
Are you positive in life.. or do you give back only the negative?
I looked at your web page, you are handsome and bear no scars or marks
that would make people run or avoid you in fear ..
I see you are into computers and a grad of computer science..
I for awhile almost believed I was the computer.. I am not ... is the
computer in control of your life.. or do you control the computer?
There are a thousand other questions to get to inside of you and help
change what is changeable, or adapt and accept what is not ..
I might add.. if you ask, then you are strong enough to change or at
least look inside of yourself to see what is not perceived as you wish to
be seen..
please do not take offense of my questions.. but use them to answer self
and me and perhaps together with all these wonderful people you have now
become part of.. as people we can see a little deeper
Pamela
pss.. I am a fan of many of what you spoke also
In article <37a2d628...@news.mindspring.com>,
truths...@mindspring.com says...
<Snipped for bandwith as a wise lady hath told me..>
mikejs
You are not alone. It's good that you posted here. Look for more help,
find a counsler perhaps it will help, perhaps you may need medication.
Don't give up, because you're only hopeless when you're dead. So long as
there is life there is hope.
In article <7nup1c$ku2$1...@news.worldonline.nl>, "Frans"
<bow...@club.tip.nl> wrote:
> Chris Truthseeker heeft geschreven in bericht
> <37a2d628...@news.mindspring.com>...
> >Someone please tell me. I'm serious.
> >
> >Everybody always avoids me unconditionally under all circumstances and by
> that
> >definition there is nothing I can do about it. It's not what I do. It's
> who I
> >am. It's what I am. I am that which must be avoided at all costs,
> regardless
> >of what I do or how I act.
> >
> >Is there anything I can do about it?
> >
> >Someone please answer me, though I know no one who knows me will answer
> this
> >because they know I'm absolutely hopeless in every way whatsoever and
> there is
> >no reason to respond to a hopeless person who should be dead. Everybody
> here
> >and everywhere else wants to send me a message that it's okay to kill
> myself
> >because there is no hope for me, but they don't know how to do it without
> >feeling malicious, evil, and guilty.
>
> Since we don't know you in real life, we cannot know if you are absolutely
> hopeless. So until proven you are, I consider you as a person who wants
> advice. We do have two other persons called Chris, so I baptise you know
> Chris DB (please, accept) :))
>
> Since you haven't found a reason for living, there couldn't be a reason to
> die now. We skip that subject.
>
> >Can anybody give me any advice on how to be attractive? I doubt it. But
> please
> >try in your deepest heart of hearts and mind of minds. I am at a
> crossroads
> >where I know what I must do now. I am not serviceable to the population
> or to
> >myself, or to the world... or to the one-ness of the universe, except in
> death.
>
>
> >I ask one last time. Can anybody give me advice, or help me in any way?
> Thank
> >you deeply in advance to anyone who even tries. To even try, knowing
> what a
> >great waste of time and effort it is, is a true indication that you are
> part of
> >this world where I am not.
> >
> >
> >Chris DuBose - truth-seeker, outspoken advocate for lonely hearts, and
> > computer science graduate of Cal Poly Pomona
>
> Frans, Dutch male.
LadyJae
Posted and Mailed
Truthseeker wrote:
> Someone please tell me. I'm serious.
>
> Everybody always avoids me unconditionally under all circumstances and by that
> definition there is nothing I can do about it. It's not what I do. It's who I
> am. It's what I am. I am that which must be avoided at all costs, regardless
> of what I do or how I act.
>
> Is there anything I can do about it?
Yes, but you have said the key words yourself. *You* are the one that has to do
it. We can give you advice, but if you simply look at the advice and say, "I can't
do that" or "I won't do that" or "I already tried that and it doesn't work", then
nothing will change for you because you have not changed it. If you label
yourself the way you have above, then you will behave in that manner....*act* in
that manner. So, it ends up still being what you *do* and not so much what you
*are*. If the behavior you exhibit, including the mannerisms, words, body language,
are preventing you from being "accepted", then you must find out what those
"avoidable" things are and then change them to be acceptable. That's *if* you truly
wish to be accepted. If you say you wish to be accepted exactly as you are, without
changing anything, then you will have to search until you find people who will do
that. People may "accept" some "parts" of you, but not all "parts" of you. If you
are looking for "total acceptance", that is quite rare to find, I think.
> Someone please answer me, though I know no one who knows me will answer this
> because they know I'm absolutely hopeless in every way whatsoever and there is
> no reason to respond to a hopeless person who should be dead. Everybody here
> and everywhere else wants to send me a message that it's okay to kill myself
> because there is no hope for me, but they don't know how to do it without
> feeling malicious, evil, and guilty.
Statements like this are "accusatory". This is not likely to get you "liked" or
"accepted". You have accused *everybody here* of wishing to send you a message that
it's okay to kill yourself. Not only is it "accusatory", it is untrue. I do not
wish to send you that message, so that makes your "blanket" statement a lie. Now,
I personally think that you made that statement because you are feeling pretty down
right now and you most likely feel like the whole world and everybody in it hates
you. But, you could have just told us that. It wouldn't have been an accusatory
statement and it would not have been a lie because it would have been how *you*
*feel*. Can you see the difference?
Saying, "I feel this way.", will get you a better response and perhaps more
responses than accusing people of things.
> Can anybody give me any advice on how to be attractive? I doubt it. But please
> try in your deepest heart of hearts and mind of minds. I am at a crossroads
> where I know what I must do now. I am not serviceable to the population or to
> myself, or to the world... or to the one-ness of the universe, except in death.
>
I have given you some advice on how to be more attractive to people in your
manner of expressing yourself. So, though you "doubted", you were given some
advice. I believe, if I recall correctly, that you have been given some advice on
being more physically attractive by some of us here in the past.
> I ask one last time. Can anybody give me advice, or help me in any way? Thank
> you deeply in advance to anyone who even tries. To even try, knowing what a
> great waste of time and effort it is, is a true indication that you are part of
> this world where I am not.
>
I do not usually do things that I think are a great waste of time and effort.
That I have tried to help you is not an indicatin that I am a part of this world
where you are not. It only indicates that I happen to think that you are worth
spending my time and effort on. Jae
--
"Paths Are Meant To Be Followed......
Where It Leads You........
Is Your Own Choice."
Orion
LadyJae
OB not yet on holiday wrote:
> "Anyone wishing to post in alt.support.loneliness for support,
> caring and/or advice for their loneliness, need only start writing to
> us and speaking their heart and telling us of their problems with
> loneliness or just telling us that they'd like to be here with us or
> sharing a poem, story or song they like or have written."
>
> I think Chris D may be excused for interpreting this as an invitation to
> talk openly about his feelings and problems. I would have read it that way
> myself.
I don't think that anyone need be excused for interpreting this as an
invitation to talk openly about their feelings and problesms *with loneliness*.
That is exactly what I said and exactly what I meant. Jae
OB not yet on holiday
solit...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Let me start out by saying that if you're in a fragile state of mind at
> the moment, then you shouldn't read any further. After reading this
> post I went back and read some of the ones you've written prior to this
> and quickly realized that what you really need is what we used to refer
> to as "a good swift kick in the ass."
Personally, I doubt that on the basis of reading a few posts any of us can
diagnose what anyone else here "really needs". We know very little of the
circumstances of those who write here. All we can go by is what they *say*
they *want* - not what we *think* they *need*. Someone comes along and says
"I want something" (eg support). We can choose to give whatever it is (if we
have it) or not. Our individual choice. That's about it.
> Okay. You ready? Here's my 12-step program for you:
>
> 1) Stop whining. Just STOP. An occasional bout isn't bad, but from
> what I've read, it's all that you do.
Guilty. I'm a whiner too. But only here, never IRL. People's Net persona is
sometimes different from their real life persona. It's not hypocrisy, it may
be that IRL there is just no-one to open up to. "Whining" may be all the
writer does here (don't know, haven't read other posts) but one cannot draw
conclusions about real life problems on that basis. What is the definition
of "whining", by the way? Is it saying you have a problem and asking for
help?
> 2) Stop being so negative about other people. In the few of your
> messages I went back and read, it was easy to see that you tend to put
> other groups down quickly. You referred to the people in
> alt.support.depression as "jerks" and I'm not even going to go into what
> you implied about autistic people. Nobody wants to be around someone
> who is always putting down other groups. Personally, any chance of me
> and you being RL friends would have been gone as soon as you started off
> on the autistic people -- and frankly, if that had been in person, me
> and you would have had some serious words that evening. The bottom line
> is though, that putting down other groups will not endear you to anyone.
That, I can't help agreeing with, on a general basis. In the post I read I
didn't see any of this "putting down other groups". Consequently, no
judgment made.
> 3) Stop being so negative about yourself. You repeatedly go around
> calling yourself a "loser" and saying your "hopeless." Would you want
> to be around someone who did that? (If you answer is "yes" then you
> need to, in the words of Henry Messenger, "put the crack pipe down and
> take three steps back.")
Beg to differ. I have replied to this person in private, and to others who
expressed similar feelings. Maybe I'm weird, but I **do** want to be around
people who repeatedly say they are losers and hopeless... or to put it
differently and less argumentatively, I seek friends among those I feel I
can relate to, with whom I feel I have something in common, and since low
self-esteem is a problem I have myself, I feel drawn in a friendly way to
people who seem to have the same problem. Like likes like, they say... I
think that a person with low self-esteem is in good company here, there are
many of us, and with goodwill we can help each other.
> [Henry, if you're reading this, I meant to drop you a note to tell you
> how much I enjoyed that line in particular and the whole way that you
> explained ARPAnet, but I just did not get there.]
>
> 4) Try focusing on positive things for a change. I believe it was
> Barbara (sorry if I'm wrong, but I'm having trouble keeping names
> straight) who suggested each day writing down five good things that
> happened to you. That's a good idea, try it. Then stick with it.
Again, I agree. It's now 12.09 Spanish time, so I suppose I missed my chance
to make up the full five. I counted two yesterday. Which was better than the
day before, but worse than the day before that!
> 5) Try saying something nice to people not even once and a while but
> often. When was the last time you actually paid somebody a compliment?
> I'm not only talking in asl, but in the real world. If you make people
> feel good about themselves, then they will want to be around you.
An important point. I must try that more often:)
> But
> whatever you do, don't follow up your compliment to them with an insult
> to yourself (i.e., "Gee, Solitude, you're so wise, smart and handsome.
> I wish I could be like you, but I'm a loser.") "Compliments" like that
> are not something that people will want to receive.
Again, depends on the people....
> 6) Try to be a little less self-absorbed. The one thing that struck me
> in reading your replies to other people's posts is that you managed to
> bring it back completely to yourself. For example, in your reply to
> Jenn's "Vent (long and boring)," all you did was talk about yourself (in
> negative terms) and how even if you had talked to the person it just
> would have led to rejection. So try spending a little less time
> focusing on your own shortcomings and problems. People won't want to
> talk to you if you are that self-absorbed.
There is truth in this, but again I think it was an oversimplification.
Sometimes you will find in life that there are people who *want* to hear
about *you*. On this group especially. If I may quote from Jae:
"Anyone wishing to post in alt.support.loneliness for support,
caring and/or advice for their loneliness, need only start writing to
us and speaking their heart and telling us of their problems with
loneliness or just telling us that they'd like to be here with us or
sharing a poem, story or song they like or have written."
I think Chris D may be excused for interpreting this as an invitation to
talk openly about his feelings and problems. I would have read it that way
myself.
> 7) Do *something* to try to improve your self image each day. Actually
> try to take positive steps towards making yourself a better person.
> When was the last time you actually did something like that and stayed
> with it?
I think this is good advice... would you care to give a few examples? I find
that most (not all) of the things I can think of that might improve my self
image cost money, which I don't have. Others require an investment of time
that conflicts with work schedules and deadlines. But it's a nice idea.
> 8) Realize that there will be setbacks along the way, but that if you
> have faith and stay the course, you can become the person you want to
> be. On this point, I recommend you read Confused's post "An Anwer
> (semi-long)" and Awen's response to it.
Will read. Currently cannot comment.
> 9) Realize that it *IS* what you DO and not who you ARE. You need to
> get out of the victim-mentality that Confused wrote about. You are not
> lonely because of your genetics.
How do you know? Some people are.
But I agree that what you do can sometimes override what you are in a most
astonishing way, as I have tried to explain, with illustration, to one or
two recent private correspondents. If what you are trying to say is "don't
let physical disabilities and unalterable circumstances win", then I'm fully
in agreement with you. Genes can be bastards sometimes (don't I know it) but
as we say in the UK "don't let the bastards get you down"... ALL of us
here have unsuspected potentials and capabilities. Let's work on those.
> 10) Take a bath. I don't know if this will help, but Frans was right so
> it's worth a shot.
Agreed. Also mint flavoured mouthwash. Certainly helped me!:) (Though not in
ASL. Can't imagine why...)
> 11) Mind how you present yourself. Are you clothes dishevelled?
Yes... that's amazing. How did you know?
> Do they match?
Please supply a colour chart and I'll tell you...
> How you present yourself is a signal of the amount of
> respect you have for yourself and the two often have a positive feedback
> going. People who are confident generally dress better.
Agreed.
> People who dress better generally feel more confident
Disagreed. If I were to dress well I'd spend my time thinking "People must
be guffawing soundlessly at the spectacle of such a walking offence to human
dignity wearing those ridiculously inappropriate clothes".
> Repeat as desired.
..... (repeating)
> 12) Read Dale Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People." I
> don't like, or generally read, self-help books. This one is different.
> It was actually written to help salesmen make a good impression on
> people that they have never met. If you are someone who lacks "da'
> social skills" this is a book you should read. It will help you make a
> better first impression. And that is a start.
Disagree. I've read it and while it is an excellent training manual for
insurance salesmen, that's ALL it is. It has no personal relevance to me or
to anyone I've ever met whatsoever. If you've ever been badgered by a house
to house insurance salesman, you've read the book. Do YOU want to sound like
that?
> The conclusion is that you have the power to change. If you drop this
> victim mentality and start to take positive steps to make your life
> better, you *can* do it -- you just have to get with the program.
You DO have the power to change. But there is no program. You have to go by
instinct and above all - BE YOURSELF.
> Of course, doing nothing is easier and being alone is generally more
> comfortable than risking the possibility of rejection. So maybe all of
> this is unnecessary.
I think there was some excellent advice in there. Speaking for myself only,
I think it is sensible to distinguish between "the possibility of rejection"
which derives from certain courses of action and "the certainty of
rejection" which derives from others. But above all, I think it is important
to point out that being rejected is not the same as being wrong.
Just an anecdote to finish. I once had a friend at university who told me
that my way of sitting was "wrong". Apparently if you want to make friends
and influence people you should not sit with knees clamped together like so,
you should sort of slouch and stretch one leg out and rest one hand
thoughtfully upon one's knee, like so, adopting a "dominating", "male",
"sexually available", "confident" sitting position. I have no doubt that my
friend was right. I tried it, imitating him as best I could, and he burst
into uncontrollable laughter. Apparently I was doing something wrong with my
hand, "clinging to my knee as if it would fall off" as he put it. Well, it
just didn't feel right.
Now, 20 years later, I still sit with knees clamped together, like so. And I
have not won any friends or influenced any people with my leg posture, of
that I'm certain. But I am me. I am true to what I am, and my posture is
true to the way I feel - frightened, defensive, intimidated by the whole
world... that's ME. I sit like that because I am honest. I don't want to
pretend I am confident and dominating when I am not. Of course I would like
to be confident and dominating (I think). But I think it has to start
inside. And that sometimes, you need help - not to be shown the right way to
sit, but to be shown acceptance and interest and support. All in its proper
place and time.
OB
Truthseeker
wrote these exquisite 235 lines of text:
:===============:
>
>
>solit...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>> Let me start out by saying that if you're in a fragile state of mind at
>> the moment, then you shouldn't read any further. After reading this
>> post I went back and read some of the ones you've written prior to this
>> and quickly realized that what you really need is what we used to refer
>> to as "a good swift kick in the ass."
>
>Personally, I doubt that on the basis of reading a few posts any of us can
>diagnose what anyone else here "really needs". We know very little of the
>circumstances of those who write here. All we can go by is what they *say*
>they *want* - not what we *think* they *need*. Someone comes along and says
>"I want something" (eg support). We can choose to give whatever it is (if we
>have it) or not. Our individual choice. That's about it.
I agree with OB.
>> Okay. You ready? Here's my 12-step program for you:
>>
>> 1) Stop whining. Just STOP. An occasional bout isn't bad, but from
>> what I've read, it's all that you do.
>
>Guilty. I'm a whiner too. But only here, never IRL. People's Net persona is
>sometimes different from their real life persona. It's not hypocrisy, it may
>be that IRL there is just no-one to open up to. "Whining" may be all the
>writer does here (don't know, haven't read other posts) but one cannot draw
>conclusions about real life problems on that basis. What is the definition
>of "whining", by the way? Is it saying you have a problem and asking for
>help?
Same with me. I'm not a whiner in real life, except every once in a while with
someone I know really really well (only people who fit that bill are my one best
friend of 13 years who's now 100 miles from me, and my mom.) But here in San
Diego, I never whine in real life.
>> 2) Stop being so negative about other people. In the few of your
>> messages I went back and read, it was easy to see that you tend to put
>> other groups down quickly. You referred to the people in
>> alt.support.depression as "jerks" and I'm not even going to go into what
>> you implied about autistic people. Nobody wants to be around someone
>> who is always putting down other groups. Personally, any chance of me
>> and you being RL friends would have been gone as soon as you started off
>> on the autistic people -- and frankly, if that had been in person, me
>> and you would have had some serious words that evening. The bottom line
>> is though, that putting down other groups will not endear you to anyone.
>
>That, I can't help agreeing with, on a general basis. In the post I read I
>didn't see any of this "putting down other groups". Consequently, no
>judgment made.
I never implied anything negative about autistic people except the mainstream
world's perception of them. I guess if anything that was sort of an insult on
the mainstream world for being narrow-minded about autistic people. See one of
my previous posts for my explanation on this.
>> 3) Stop being so negative about yourself. You repeatedly go around
>> calling yourself a "loser" and saying your "hopeless." Would you want
>> to be around someone who did that? (If you answer is "yes" then you
>> need to, in the words of Henry Messenger, "put the crack pipe down and
>> take three steps back.")
I don't repeatedly go around calling myself a loser in real life, though I do
occasionally here.
>Beg to differ. I have replied to this person in private, and to others who
>expressed similar feelings. Maybe I'm weird, but I **do** want to be around
>people who repeatedly say they are losers and hopeless... or to put it
>differently and less argumentatively, I seek friends among those I feel I
>can relate to, with whom I feel I have something in common, and since low
>self-esteem is a problem I have myself, I feel drawn in a friendly way to
>people who seem to have the same problem. Like likes like, they say... I
>think that a person with low self-esteem is in good company here, there are
>many of us, and with goodwill we can help each other.
I agree with this, though in my case I seem to look for people with high
self-esteem because I'm mainly afraid of people who are like myself, so I guess
I sort of agree with Solitude, though I think OB in particular is really cool
because he's relatively comfortable with his low self-esteem (something I strive
to be).
>> [Henry, if you're reading this, I meant to drop you a note to tell you
>> how much I enjoyed that line in particular and the whole way that you
>> explained ARPAnet, but I just did not get there.]
>>
>> 4) Try focusing on positive things for a change. I believe it was
>> Barbara (sorry if I'm wrong, but I'm having trouble keeping names
>> straight) who suggested each day writing down five good things that
>> happened to you. That's a good idea, try it. Then stick with it.
>
>Again, I agree. It's now 12.09 Spanish time, so I suppose I missed my chance
>to make up the full five. I counted two yesterday. Which was better than the
>day before, but worse than the day before that!
That's tough to do. I'll try, but I seem to hate myself too much. I feel like
I don't deserve to think anything good about myself, and that I would be
conceited and arrogant and stuck-up to think positive things about myself.
>> 5) Try saying something nice to people not even once and a while but
>> often. When was the last time you actually paid somebody a compliment?
>> I'm not only talking in asl, but in the real world. If you make people
>> feel good about themselves, then they will want to be around you.
>
>An important point. I must try that more often:)
Me too. I seem to only be emotionally capable of doing that when I'm not
crashing myself, but I should force myself to anyway. It might help me as well
as the other person. And if doesn't help me, then hopefully it helps the other
person, though I have to be careful not to say something the other person's not
going to believe.
>> But
>> whatever you do, don't follow up your compliment to them with an insult
>> to yourself (i.e., "Gee, Solitude, you're so wise, smart and handsome.
>> I wish I could be like you, but I'm a loser.") "Compliments" like that
>> are not something that people will want to receive.
>
>Again, depends on the people....
True. I guess I shouldn't do that, but I can't help it much of the time.
>> 6) Try to be a little less self-absorbed. The one thing that struck me
>> in reading your replies to other people's posts is that you managed to
>> bring it back completely to yourself. For example, in your reply to
>> Jenn's "Vent (long and boring)," all you did was talk about yourself (in
>> negative terms) and how even if you had talked to the person it just
>> would have led to rejection. So try spending a little less time
>> focusing on your own shortcomings and problems. People won't want to
>> talk to you if you are that self-absorbed.
>
>There is truth in this, but again I think it was an oversimplification.
>Sometimes you will find in life that there are people who *want* to hear
>about *you*. On this group especially. If I may quote from Jae:
>
>"Anyone wishing to post in alt.support.loneliness for support,
>caring and/or advice for their loneliness, need only start writing to
>us and speaking their heart and telling us of their problems with
>loneliness or just telling us that they'd like to be here with us or
>sharing a poem, story or song they like or have written."
>
>I think Chris D may be excused for interpreting this as an invitation to
>talk openly about his feelings and problems. I would have read it that way
>myself.
I often tell about my experiences and talk about myself, because there often
just isn't much else for me to say. I don't like giving direct advice to people
because I know I don't know them and I don't like to tell people what to do as
if I know what's good for them better than they do. I would see that as
insulting to them, and even if I were right, they might not listen to me because
they don't like my attitude toward them.
So I relate my *own* experiences if I have similar experiences, and relate what
I may have done, if anything, to help myself in my situations, and let *them*
decide what is similar and what is different between me and them, and they can
do the analyses and comparisons, and they can come to their own conclusions. I
think that way is much better than telling them they should do this or that.
>> 7) Do *something* to try to improve your self image each day. Actually
>> try to take positive steps towards making yourself a better person.
>> When was the last time you actually did something like that and stayed
>> with it?
>
>I think this is good advice... would you care to give a few examples? I find
>that most (not all) of the things I can think of that might improve my self
>image cost money, which I don't have. Others require an investment of time
>that conflicts with work schedules and deadlines. But it's a nice idea.
I work out occasionally, but it doesn't do much good, however I'm afraid to go
too long without doing it because I feel I'll fall too far behind and get
extremely weak and fat, etc, even though I'm not fat at all (I'm about average
for my small size).
>> 8) Realize that there will be setbacks along the way, but that if you
>> have faith and stay the course, you can become the person you want to
>> be. On this point, I recommend you read Confused's post "An Anwer
>> (semi-long)" and Awen's response to it.
>
>Will read. Currently cannot comment.
>
>> 9) Realize that it *IS* what you DO and not who you ARE. You need to
>> get out of the victim-mentality that Confused wrote about. You are not
>> lonely because of your genetics.
>
>How do you know? Some people are.
>
>But I agree that what you do can sometimes override what you are in a most
>astonishing way, as I have tried to explain, with illustration, to one or
>two recent private correspondents. If what you are trying to say is "don't
>let physical disabilities and unalterable circumstances win", then I'm fully
>in agreement with you. Genes can be bastards sometimes (don't I know it) but
>as we say in the UK "don't let the bastards get you down"... ALL of us
>here have unsuspected potentials and capabilities. Let's work on those.
I should have made it clearer what I meant by being more attractive. I don't
really mean physically. Physically, I'm perfectly average, actually a bit worse
than average because I'm only 5'4", but otherwise I'm average. But my aura,
energy, impression, enigma, whatever, is absolutely horrible. And my ugliness
is very subtle and everybody's aware only at a subconscious level, because I've
pretty much taken care of the less subtle aspects of my ugliness, like poor
posture, sad face, things like that. However, I don't like to and pretty much
can't act unnatural so I can't go around smiling or something.
I was really asking what I should do to make myself more interesting to people,
like they'd actually *gasp* want to come up and talk to me! ...women in
particular I guess. I guess women don't really go up and talk to any guy, so I
couldn't hope for that, but at least how do I be attractive enough so that when
I approach them they don't give the "get away from me" body language.
>> 10) Take a bath. I don't know if this will help, but Frans was right so
>> it's worth a shot.
>
>Agreed. Also mint flavoured mouthwash. Certainly helped me!:) (Though not in
>ASL. Can't imagine why...)
I shower every day, and brush my teeth usually twice a day. I always brush my
hair, though my hair is a little unruly, but not too bad.
>> 12) Read Dale Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People." I
>> don't like, or generally read, self-help books. This one is different.
>> It was actually written to help salesmen make a good impression on
>> people that they have never met. If you are someone who lacks "da'
>> social skills" this is a book you should read. It will help you make a
>> better first impression. And that is a start.
>
>Disagree. I've read it and while it is an excellent training manual for
>insurance salesmen, that's ALL it is. It has no personal relevance to me or
>to anyone I've ever met whatsoever. If you've ever been badgered by a house
>to house insurance salesman, you've read the book. Do YOU want to sound like
>that?
I sure don't. I don't want to have the slightest similarities with any
salesman. They annoy me to an incredible degree.
>> The conclusion is that you have the power to change. If you drop this
>> victim mentality and start to take positive steps to make your life
>> better, you *can* do it -- you just have to get with the program.
>
>You DO have the power to change. But there is no program. You have to go by
>instinct and above all - BE YOURSELF.
Yes, I do try to be myself above all else. Nothing is worth not being yourself.
This is why I don't like a lot of the advice people give me because I'm just not
really capable of doing it. My lack of social skills isn't just because I don't
have experience (though that's surely part of it), and it's not because I just
want to be some strange way, but I actually have a cognitive inability to
communicate in "real time" (i.e. speaking to another as opposed to writing when
alone) that gets in the way of life to a large degree. There's nothing I can
really do about it. It's simply a lack of intelligence in that area. I was
always almost abnormally very far behind in speech development and comprehension
when I was growing up, and I'm still behind now at 25. I'm just not capable of
responding quickly enough to provide an intelligent conversation in real life.
I actually sort of have a mental disability in real-time communication, and that
is partly at the root of all my social inability, as well as being very fragile
and afraid of rejection from people I care about.
>> Of course, doing nothing is easier and being alone is generally more
>> comfortable than risking the possibility of rejection. So maybe all of
>> this is unnecessary.
>
>I think there was some excellent advice in there. Speaking for myself only,
>I think it is sensible to distinguish between "the possibility of rejection"
>which derives from certain courses of action and "the certainty of
>rejection" which derives from others. But above all, I think it is important
>to point out that being rejected is not the same as being wrong.
True, and that's a good thing to point out.
>Just an anecdote to finish. I once had a friend at university who told me
>that my way of sitting was "wrong". Apparently if you want to make friends
>and influence people you should not sit with knees clamped together like so,
>you should sort of slouch and stretch one leg out and rest one hand
>thoughtfully upon one's knee, like so, adopting a "dominating", "male",
>"sexually available", "confident" sitting position. I have no doubt that my
>friend was right. I tried it, imitating him as best I could, and he burst
>into uncontrollable laughter. Apparently I was doing something wrong with my
>hand, "clinging to my knee as if it would fall off" as he put it. Well, it
>just didn't feel right.
>
>Now, 20 years later, I still sit with knees clamped together, like so. And I
>have not won any friends or influenced any people with my leg posture, of
>that I'm certain. But I am me. I am true to what I am, and my posture is
>true to the way I feel - frightened, defensive, intimidated by the whole
>world... that's ME. I sit like that because I am honest. I don't want to
>pretend I am confident and dominating when I am not. Of course I would like
>to be confident and dominating (I think). But I think it has to start
>inside. And that sometimes, you need help - not to be shown the right way to
>sit, but to be shown acceptance and interest and support. All in its proper
>place and time.
Thanks for the post OB. I think this is quite helpful. Solitude has some good
advice there too, but hard to follow.
>OB
truthseeker
Eleonore Beaudoin
Thank you for a superb closing paragraph.
Read it with much interest.
BE YOU TIFUL= beautiful
Being one's self as much as one can is the most one can ever be.
All he rest is the most one can ever fake....
At least, in being me, would I be liked or love, I am so for
who I am, and can then feel so and know so. Whereas if I am
being a fake, as "doing nice-ty" as "I" may be,if someone
likes the fake then played , all I could know would be that
they like something, someone that does not really exist, and I
still would never get to feel that *I* am being liked and
accepted or loved.
I actually NEVER met anyone that was their true self and did
not like them.
I am instinctively allergic to fake though....
I have a mailing list still opened called "Being". Exactly
cause of that. Cause of needing to find people that are
"genuinely themself" to exchange with.
Fake and recipies are just "doing nice-ties" or "doing
nicely". Anyone can do nicely, so to speak.
To BE nicely is something else....
It is to be one's real self, and just learn to love one's
self as one is.
And in Being so, one gets feedback from genuine ones
that is supportive and helpful in being one's self more and
more and learnign to love our self just as "it" is...
Seing that the true self is accepted and liked exactly for
being as it is: a genuine real *human being*.
From there, all that one can chose to change is easy to
achieve, in their self development, when nurturing loving
support and acceptance is available and there. Not recipes
and orders: we all have our own needs. What trick is good
for one might nor be good tomorrow, nor for someone else.
I think that putting poeple down is not supportive of any
change they woudl like to operate or put forward in their
life...I think that it supports *solitude* : that of the
person puttign down, and that of the person put down...
It exactly creates a "wall" between the two....
In that, it supports isolation and loneliness, instea of
supporting the lonely person.
Many so called self assured persons will make me reeact in
staying away from them, in not wanting to knwo them mor:
those that have this fresh attitude and play "never having
any problems".
In French, we say "Beware of the still waters" about that.
Salesmen do not care about the person's they sell a product to.
They actually do NOT care for their needs at all either. It
is said that the best salesman woudo "sell a refrigerator to
an eskimo", exactly to mean creatimg a false need, then
being seen as if god for happening to be there juuuustas the
need showed up;-), what do you know:).
If one reads such bopoks, I prefer what was his name, the
one that wrote "The world's greatest secret"? (man....delo?
something of the like...). Anyway. Made at forst for
salespersons, it has this difference of beign more
"spiritual" oriented, and to respect others.
As for "How to influence people", I read the fprst pages of
such a book written ages ago: the author scared the life out
of me so little he had respect for free will....
Anyone respecting their neighbor woudl never even think of
trying to influence them to think this or that way...
Others were not born to be what is around "the little centre
ofthe world we each woudl be".
Each and every single person IS he most important person in
each their life. NOT "in life". Each in their own.
Then if I grant my neighbor the same importance from
himself/herself to himself/herself as I grant me in my being
responsible, never would it make sense to me to try and
influence people by using any sort of trickery, recipe,
influence, or even prayer: if God gave us free will, who
woudl we be to take it away from anyone????
Makes no sense in my deep beliefs and way of life and seing
life.
We are all equals. There is no such thing as "Some are more
equal than others".
Some we agree with, soem we disagree with, and not all the
time: we can agree here and disagree there with someone.
This in no way makes them more equal or less equal nor makes
me nor anyone more or less equal than anyone else.
Then how can one, in being equal, decide that his thoughts
are more worth imposing on others? In "influencing" them?
Any way that says it wants to help people and is not loving is
rubbish. No put down, as ""great" (low?) as it ever was ever
made anyone grow,to my knowledge.
Acceptance does.
Thanks for great thoughts in your reply, OB.
And thanks for sharing your 12 step program with us, Solitude.
I wish you had given examples of how you applied it in your
own life, how it made your life less lonely... It maybe coud
have helped me know you a bit more,
and maybe would help both you and I and others in feeling less
lonely then, in knowing a bit more about you the person...
Nity night Solitude!:)
Nighty nite, OB!:)
X
Chloe
OB not yet on
holiday
Bryan Sin Nombre
(Truthseeker) wrote:
>Someone please tell me. I'm serious.
Hell if I know, man. I've tried everything that I know how
to try, and I still don't have a life.
You know how some people have charisma? It is much
less commonly known that some of us, such as myself,
have anti-charisma.
What decisions we should make regarding that are
something that everyone must decide for themselves.
I'm very near a decision.
Bryan Sin Nombre
King
Hellobloke!
On Sun, 01 Aug 1999 01:02:24 +0200, OB not yet on holiday
<obl...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>
>solit...@my-deja.com wrote:
<snip - other snippings will be done without recording them>
>Personally, I doubt that on the basis of reading a few posts any of us can
>diagnose what anyone else here "really needs". We know very little of the
>circumstances of those who write here. All we can go by is what they *say*
>they *want* - not what we *think* they *need*. Someone comes along and says
>"I want something" (eg support). We can choose to give whatever it is (if we
>have it) or not. Our individual choice. That's about it.
Sharp remarks. We should remember them more often, and we'll probably
tell less nonsense. *chuckle* Isolated messages are not that
important.
>Guilty. I'm a whiner too. But only here, never IRL. People's Net persona is
>sometimes different from their real life persona. It's not hypocrisy, it may
>be that IRL there is just no-one to open up to. "Whining" may be all the
>writer does here (don't know, haven't read other posts) but one cannot draw
>conclusions about real life problems on that basis. What is the definition
>of "whining", by the way? Is it saying you have a problem and asking for
>help?
Your remarks on net personas are interesting. BTW, in real life I'm
much more faqing disgusting than here! *chuckle*
>Beg to differ. I have replied to this person in private, and to others who
>expressed similar feelings. Maybe I'm weird, but I **do** want to be around
>people who repeatedly say they are losers and hopeless... or to put it
>differently and less argumentatively, I seek friends among those I feel I
>can relate to, with whom I feel I have something in common, and since low
>self-esteem is a problem I have myself, I feel drawn in a friendly way to
>people who seem to have the same problem. Like likes like, they say... I
>think that a person with low self-esteem is in good company here, there are
>many of us, and with goodwill we can help each other.
Birds of a feather fly together, right? We should distinguish,
however, among real life and the cyberspace. As you've remarked
already, you do no wheening in the former. If that person has the
same attitude, I agree that you will relate well.
>> 4) Try focusing on positive things for a change. I believe it was
>> Barbara (sorry if I'm wrong, but I'm having trouble keeping names
>> straight) who suggested each day writing down five good things that
>> happened to you. That's a good idea, try it. Then stick with it.
>
>Again, I agree. It's now 12.09 Spanish time, so I suppose I missed my chance
>to make up the full five. I counted two yesterday. Which was better than the
>day before, but worse than the day before that!
Four a starter, one can thry less than five, though five should be at
hand-y. Besides, that is step n.4, 4 all to see.
>> 6) Try to be a little less self-absorbed. The one thing that struck me
>> in reading your replies to other people's posts is that you managed to
>> bring it back completely to yourself. For example, in your reply to
>> Jenn's "Vent (long and boring)," all you did was talk about yourself (in
>> negative terms) and how even if you had talked to the person it just
>> would have led to rejection. So try spending a little less time
>> focusing on your own shortcomings and problems. People won't want to
>> talk to you if you are that self-absorbed.
>
>There is truth in this, but again I think it was an oversimplification.
>Sometimes you will find in life that there are people who *want* to hear
>about *you*.
Sure there are, however being self-absorbed (I mean the actual
behaviour, no mind-reading here) is terribly boring after a while. If
not for everybody, at least for many.
>> 7) Do *something* to try to improve your self image each day. Actually
>> try to take positive steps towards making yourself a better person.
>> When was the last time you actually did something like that and stayed
>> with it?
>
>I think this is good advice... would you care to give a few examples? I find
>that most (not all) of the things I can think of that might improve my self
>image cost money, which I don't have. Others require an investment of time
>that conflicts with work schedules and deadlines. But it's a nice idea.
If you spend so much time with the work, something of what you produce
there will help?
>> 9) Realize that it *IS* what you DO and not who you ARE. You need to
>> get out of the victim-mentality that Confused wrote about. You are not
>> lonely because of your genetics.
>
>How do you know? Some people are.
Oh-oh, I should have read n.9 more carefully. I think that the
genetics issue could lead to a subtle debate.
Having a victim-mentality is a something to overcome. I wonder if
such a thing may be inscribed in the genes, as a permanent
personality trait. Same for being lonely. Who knows?
>But I agree that what you do can sometimes override what you are in a most
>astonishing way, as I have tried to explain, with illustration, to one or
>two recent private correspondents. If what you are trying to say is "don't
>let physical disabilities and unalterable circumstances win", then I'm fully
>in agreement with you. Genes can be bastards sometimes (don't I know it) but
>as we say in the UK "don't let the bastards get you down"... ALL of us
>here have unsuspected potentials and capabilities. Let's work on those.
Agree with the above.
>> 10) Take a bath. I don't know if this will help, but Frans was right so
>> it's worth a shot.
>
>Agreed. Also mint flavoured mouthwash. Certainly helped me!:) (Though not in
>ASL. Can't imagine why...)
There is something wrong with mint, as mint-reading is frowned upon
here. Try raspberry.
>> 11) Mind how you present yourself. Are you clothes dishevelled?
>
>Yes... that's amazing. How did you know?
A spy-network is busy in eliciting very detailed info on each
important poster.
>> Do they match?
>
>Please supply a colour chart and I'll tell you...
*chuckle*
>> How you present yourself is a signal of the amount of
>> respect you have for yourself and the two often have a positive feedback
>> going. People who are confident generally dress better.
>
>Agreed.
>
>> People who dress better generally feel more confident
>
>Disagreed. If I were to dress well I'd spend my time thinking "People must
>be guffawing soundlessly at the spectacle of such a walking offence to human
>dignity wearing those ridiculously inappropriate clothes".
*guffaw* *guffaw* *guffaw* But you, Groucho Marx and Harpo Engels are
clearly exceptions.
>> Repeat as desired.
>
>...... (repeating)
..... (as desired)
>> The conclusion is that you have the power to change. If you drop this
>> victim mentality and start to take positive steps to make your life
>> better, you *can* do it -- you just have to get with the program.
>
>You DO have the power to change. But there is no program. You have to go by
>instinct and above all - BE YOURSELF.
Agree with the last remark, only I don't think that there is no
inconsistency in being yourself and follow a program.
>> Of course, doing nothing is easier and being alone is generally more
>> comfortable than risking the possibility of rejection. So maybe all of
>> this is unnecessary.
>
>I think there was some excellent advice in there. Speaking for myself only,
>I think it is sensible to distinguish between "the possibility of rejection"
>which derives from certain courses of action and "the certainty of
>rejection" which derives from others. But above all, I think it is important
>to point out that being rejected is not the same as being wrong.
You'll not be surprised hearing that I agree with the last statement!
>Just an anecdote to finish. I once had a friend at university who told me
>that my way of sitting was "wrong". Apparently if you want to make friends
>and influence people you should not sit with knees clamped together like so,
>you should sort of slouch and stretch one leg out and rest one hand
>thoughtfully upon one's knee, like so, adopting a "dominating", "male",
>"sexually available", "confident" sitting position. I have no doubt that my
>friend was right. I tried it, imitating him as best I could, and he burst
>into uncontrollable laughter. Apparently I was doing something wrong with my
>hand, "clinging to my knee as if it would fall off" as he put it. Well, it
>just didn't feel right.
>
>Now, 20 years later, I still sit with knees clamped together, like so.
You mean that in 20 years you didn't ever succeed to untagle them?
(Tee-hee, just kidding).
>And I have not won any friends or influenced any people with my leg posture, of
>that I'm certain. But I am me. I am true to what I am, and my posture is
>true to the way I feel - frightened, defensive, intimidated by the whole
>world... that's ME. I sit like that because I am honest. I don't want to
>pretend I am confident and dominating when I am not. Of course I would like
>to be confident and dominating (I think). But I think it has to start
>inside. And that sometimes, you need help - not to be shown the right way to
>sit, but to be shown acceptance and interest and support. All in its proper
>place and time.
As always, your writing is charming.
Now to the point. It is true that the change should start inside.
Changing one or two habits will not be magic, and even if you do,
other symptoms of insecurity will appear. So I agree on that.
OTOH, it seems to me that your attitude, on this issue, is too
black-and-white. A small change, even if not the way you sit,
may have a good pay-back. Especially when a relevant change,
that inside, is still unavailable.
Let's pretend that you're one side of a large chasm, willing to jump
the other side. But you don't, because you're afraid of falling on the
flight. You have no magic to fly. No way to step the other side with a
single jump.
If only you had a bridge to connect one side with the other,
you'll step on the bridge, and be neither side during all of your
path. Your travel will be possibly unconfortable and dangerous, but
not such hopeless as the unique, impossible jump.
Model your bridge. It may be done of 12 steps, or perhaps many
more. But it worth building it.
>
>OB
OB not yet on holiday
>Having a victim-mentality is a something to overcome. I wonder if
> such a thing may be inscribed in the genes, as a permanent
> personality trait. Same for being lonely. Who knows?
I didn't mean that, actually. I meant that some people are born with
genetically-based physical handicaps which affect their self-esteem and
it is often this self-esteem problem, NOT the physical "cause" itself,
which can result in isolation and loneliness. What a group like this can
do is help to sort out the self-esteem problem. This is best done, I
think, not by being dismissive about the source of people's hang-ups,
but by being understanding and respectful but at the same time
demonstrating that what really matters is how you view yourself - that
self-confidence that you show - and the interest in others, as Solitude
rightly said - is what other people (if they have any depth and are in
the least bit worth knowing) will catch on to and respond to. Last year
I was helped a great deal by someone called Solo (who I do not now see
posting on the group, to my chagrin) who argued this forcefully to me in
my own case.
> There is something wrong with mint, as mint-reading is frowned upon
> here. Try raspberry.
I think it is perhaps fortunate that there is no agreed Internet symbol
for blowing raspberries....
> Agree with the last remark, only I don't think that there is no
> inconsistency in being yourself and follow a program.
Objection sustained.
> You mean that in 20 years you didn't ever succeed to untagle them?
> (Tee-hee, just kidding).
It's all right for you, you've only got two to worry about.... Try
untangling six and see how far YOU get...
> Now to the point. It is true that the change should start inside.
> Changing one or two habits will not be magic, and even if you do,
> other symptoms of insecurity will appear. So I agree on that.
>
> OTOH, it seems to me that your attitude, on this issue, is too
> black-and-white. A small change, even if not the way you sit,
> may have a good pay-back. Especially when a relevant change,
> that inside, is still unavailable.
This is making sense....
> Let's pretend that you're one side of a large chasm, willing to jump
> the other side. But you don't, because you're afraid of falling on the
> flight. You have no magic to fly. No way to step the other side with a
> single jump.
>
> If only you had a bridge to connect one side with the other,
> you'll step on the bridge, and be neither side during all of your
> path. Your travel will be possibly unconfortable and dangerous, but
> not such hopeless as the unique, impossible jump.
>
> Model your bridge. It may be done of 12 steps, or perhaps many
> more. But it worth building it.
I found this metaphor illuminating. I also found illuminating the
following, from Jae:
>If the behavior you exhibit, including the mannerisms, words, body language,
>are preventing you from being "accepted", then you must find out what those
>"avoidable" things are and then change them to be acceptable. That's *if* you truly
>wish to be accepted. If you say you wish to be accepted exactly as you are, without
>changing anything, then you will have to search until you find people who will do
>that. People may "accept" some "parts" of you, but not all "parts" of you. If you
>are looking for "total acceptance", that is quite rare to find, I think
Yes, I was being too black and white. People must find their own
personal, feels-right balance between the two extremes, on the one hand
"I am the way I am and I act the way I want, if people don't like it
that's their problem", what might be called the
picking-your-nose-at-the-restaurant-table syndrome... and at the other
extreme "I will do anything for acceptance, no matter if it is a total
falsification of what I am like", aka the
gosh-I-do-like-your-orange-tie-and-purple-shirt
syndrome... As usual, wisdom lies somewhere in between, I suppose.
Something like sticking up for what you see as the real, deep-down you,
but being prepared to review the accrued habits and inappropriate
conditioning you've been subjected to. After all, there are people who
are full of interest in others and desire for human relationships, who
yet find it feels "false" and embarrassing to say just "how are you?" to
someone. And maybe just learning to say that with the right intonation
and smile is all they need to start making friends....
OB
Eleonore Beaudoin
LadyJae (Lad...@ccms.net) writes:
> OB not yet on holiday wrote:
>
>> "Anyone wishing to post in alt.support.loneliness for support,
>> caring and/or advice for their loneliness, need only start writing to
>> us and speaking their heart and telling us of their problems with
>> loneliness or just telling us that they'd like to be here with us or
>> sharing a poem, story or song they like or have written."
>>
>> I think Chris D may be excused for interpreting this as an invitation to
>> talk openly about his feelings and problems. I would have read it that way
>> myself.
>
> invitation to talk openly about their feelings and problesms *with loneliness*.
> That is exactly what I said and exactly what I meant. Jae
If it is THEIR feelings and THEIR problems of loneliness,
how come you then go around selecting what is or not fittign
that description of yours?:)
Nice owrds.
I donlt see you applying them woth Raf, with me, with anyone.
Soem people do not want to talk about private things in a
place where peole like you put them down.
Ever crossed your mind at all????
No oen HAS TO.
Soem pwoudl prefer to find a few they can relate to in here,
then see if they can feel confortabel to talk with them in
private, rather than risk your namecalling their words
garbage or your friends calling them turds, vile, repulsive,
etc, when exactly: they dunno me. Nor do you. Cause I just
donlt trust peo-le like you.
Big talking.
No faqing action, Jae.
Sounds good.
Acts rotten.
Chloe
Graham
makes it hard for me to make friends, to make people like me. I'm sure
it's a cognitive thing. I never know what to say to someone, never
have anything interesting to say or any witty responses. On IRC or
ICQ I'm fine, it's just real life voice communication that I can't
handle.
Sometimes when I'm talking and people are listening to me, I get
overly conscious of the fact that people are watching and listening to
me, and my eyes start to water. Then I become aware that my eyes are
watering, which makes me panic and my eyes water even more. I try to
stop talking quickly at that point and end up looking really stupid.
I've suffered from this since roughly when I started High School (when
I was 11). I was fine before then. I'm not sure that my social
skills are good enough for me to have a decent career, even though I
am intelligent enough.
Also, I can't drive. I don't understand traffic very well. Dunno if
that is related.
Sorry this message wasn't very useful
-Graham
(loves Queen also)
Eleonore Beaudoin
Hi, Graham...
I forst thought of saying that I did not see any relation
between not finding the words to say and beign unable to
drive/understand traffic.
BUIT...In my case, since an assault in 1990, I stayed self
aware of one of my eye that was dammaged: the bones around
the eye, forehead and cheek, was broken, and the
muscles/nerves around that are did not work as well...
For instance I can not move that eyeborw very much since then.
At time,s since the assault, when light hits that eye, it is
as if the eye will follow the light, no matter what side it
is: I then get to have crooked eyes....Or so it felt.
I became self aware of it because fo the pulling sensation
on the optic nerve, and cause well...Someone once said "Hey?
Your euyes are crossed...", which made it even worse, in
that I thought maybe it was only a sensation in my eye, not
really making my eyes be crossed....
Now, I sort of can not look at soemoen in the eye very long...
Anyone, cause the one eye will start feeling that way. I
then get disatrcted from the conversation, and loise the
thread...And feel stupid for both those factors...The eye
and the not being able to follow anymore the conversation...
As for traffic, well, I do drive.
However I am a phenomenon for getting lost in a city!
Yet, put me in the middle of a dense forest and I will know
instinctively what direction to take to get out of there
asap, it seems.
It occured to em that a good reason for that was that I can
not see street signs anymore, nor pannels that say for
instance "No left turn [between 8 and ten], where the time
written in smaller chars I can not read.
But due to a more general condition, my eyesight fluctuates,
and I then coudl nto find much help with glasses, contacts, I
am afraid...
Just one little thing:
I raised many kids even if I had only one of my "own".
One of the kids had attention problems, (attention deficit).
I read soemwhere and saw a documentary about at the same
time on it, that this was sometimes due to somethign wrong
with the inner ear "balance". They suggested then that one
tried those anti0nausea pills, liike against car motion
sickness? On the shelves?
I wodnered what to do....But I tried it with that "son",
since he was also having motion sickness a lot as a kid, and
that made me wonder if there was a cause then in his e\inner
ear for real woth the attention disorder. Well. Within ONE
SIMPLE WEEK, the kid who had flunked 5 years in school seemd
to remember all he learned in class.
As I was stunned by this, talking with him, he woudl say "I
now know what way to go"...Repeating that...I wondered what
he meant and I finally understood as he tried expalining it
that he meant "I finally have a sense or orientation".
All this to say that I wodner: did you ever ask a
ear/nose/throat specialist about that?
Even if it coudl be with eye symptoms, never know: sinuses
can affect eyes, for instance...
Long shot, maybe, but would it not be worth a try to check
with a dr?
Chloe
Graham (g.s.f...@dur.ac.uk) writes:
> I have a similar problem. I'm terrible at talking, and it really
> makes it hard for me to make friends, to make people like me. I'm sure
> it's a cognitive thing. I never know what to say to someone, never
> have anything interesting to say or any witty responses. On IRC or
> ICQ I'm fine, it's just real life voice communication that I can't
> handle.
> Sometimes when I'm talking and people are listening to me, I get
> overly conscious of the fact that people are watching and listening to
> me, and my eyes start to water. Then I become aware that my eyes are
> watering, which makes me panic and my eyes water even more. I try to
> stop talking quickly at that point and end up looking really stupid.
> I've suffered from this since roughly when I started High School (when
> I was 11). I was fine before then. I'm not sure that my social
> skills are good enough for me to have a decent career, even though I
> am intelligent enough.
>
> Also, I can't drive. I don't understand traffic very well. Dunno if
> that is related.
>
> Sorry this message wasn't very useful
>
> -Graham
> (loves Queen also)
>
>>
lemn...@my-deja.com
Truthseeker, you get a life by being kind to people
Let me tell you about my friend
When he was growing up, his teachers all thought he was retarded. Until
he tested to have a real high IQ.
While everyone made fun of him, he ate himself into frustrated obesity.
And everyone still made fun of him, but now they called him a geek
instead of a retard, because they switched him to gifted classes.
I met my friend when he was in law school. And a lot of people were
making fun of him then, too. He weighed 500 pounds. And I am sure you
know the types of nasty lawyer jokes he got once he got out.
And in spite of it all, my friend remained kind to people. Some of us
noticed how kind he was and decided he was a great friend to keep.
He was kind to everyone who knew him. He took in every stray pet. He
helped every poor person he knew. He did a lot of really difficult
cases for free for underdogs, because he knew how it felt to be on the
losing end of a battle.
He suffered a heart attack in his early 30's. And he died at 40, this
week.
But he died with a wife who loved him, friends who loved him, and
professional friends who respected him.
He got a life because he was kind to people.
So that is all you ever really need to do. Be kind to others, and
someone somewhere will return it. Maybe not the person you were kind
to...but someone somewhere will surely notice you were kind...
Hey, RIP SK...
I'm sitting shiva for you right now
Wish I coulda been there
In article <37a2d628...@news.mindspring.com>,
truths...@mindspring.com wrote:
> Someone please tell me. I'm serious.
>
> Everybody always avoids me unconditionally under all circumstances and
by that
> definition there is nothing I can do about it. It's not what I do.
It's who I
> am. It's what I am. I am that which must be avoided at all costs,
regardless
> of what I do or how I act.
>
> Is there anything I can do about it?
>
> Someone please answer me, though I know no one who knows me will
answer this
> because they know I'm absolutely hopeless in every way whatsoever and
there is
> no reason to respond to a hopeless person who should be dead.
Everybody here
> and everywhere else wants to send me a message that it's okay to kill
myself
> because there is no hope for me, but they don't know how to do it
without
> feeling malicious, evil, and guilty.
>
> Can anybody give me any advice on how to be attractive? I doubt it.
But please
> try in your deepest heart of hearts and mind of minds. I am at a
crossroads
> where I know what I must do now. I am not serviceable to the
population or to
> myself, or to the world... or to the one-ness of the universe, except
in death.
>
> I ask one last time. Can anybody give me advice, or help me in any
way? Thank
> you deeply in advance to anyone who even tries. To even try, knowing
what a
> great waste of time and effort it is, is a true indication that you
are part of
> this world where I am not.
>
> Chris DuBose - truth-seeker, outspoken advocate for lonely hearts, and
> computer science graduate of Cal Poly Pomona
>
> email: cdu...@mindspring.com
> http://www.mindspring.com/~cdubose
>
> Fan of Queen, Xena, Angband, Star Trek, Seattle, and Torey Hayden
> "If you're feeling kinda nothing, don't try so hard" - Queen -
Innuendo
>
King
Hello again, OB!
On Sun, 01 Aug 1999 13:26:22 +0200, OB not yet on holiday
<obl...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>King wrote:
>> such a thing may be inscribed in the genes, as a permanent
>> personality trait. Same for being lonely. Who knows?
>
>I didn't mean that, actually. I meant that some people are born with
>genetically-based physical handicaps which affect their self-esteem and
>it is often this self-esteem problem, NOT the physical "cause" itself,
>which can result in isolation and loneliness. What a group like this can
>do is help to sort out the self-esteem problem. This is best done, I
>think, not by being dismissive about the source of people's hang-ups,
>but by being understanding and respectful but at the same time
>demonstrating that what really matters is how you view yourself - that
>self-confidence that you show - and the interest in others, as Solitude
>rightly said - is what other people (if they have any depth and are in
>the least bit worth knowing) will catch on to and respond to. Last year
>I was helped a great deal by someone called Solo (who I do not now see
>posting on the group, to my chagrin) who argued this forcefully to me in
>my own case.
Solo you said? I didn't find her in my server, but it seems that she
reappeared a few days ago.
Thanks for clarifying that issue.
>> There is something wrong with mint, as mint-reading is frowned upon
>> here. Try raspberry.
>
>I think it is perhaps fortunate that there is no agreed Internet symbol
>for blowing raspberries....
Why?
>> Agree with the last remark, only I don't think that there is no
>> inconsistency in being yourself and follow a program.
>
>Objection sustained.
:o)
>> You mean that in 20 years you didn't ever succeed to untagle them?
>> (Tee-hee, just kidding).
>
>It's all right for you, you've only got two to worry about.... Try
>untangling six and see how far YOU get...
LOL! Six legs like a bug? This must be very bugging! But me, being a
flying dragon, I've sometimes to untangle my long tail.
>> Now to the point. It is true that the change should start inside.
>> Changing one or two habits will not be magic, and even if you do,
>> other symptoms of insecurity will appear. So I agree on that.
>>
>> OTOH, it seems to me that your attitude, on this issue, is too
>> black-and-white. A small change, even if not the way you sit,
>> may have a good pay-back. Especially when a relevant change,
>> that inside, is still unavailable.
>
>This is making sense....
>
>> Let's pretend that you're one side of a large chasm, willing to jump
>> the other side. But you don't, because you're afraid of falling on the
>> flight. You have no magic to fly. No way to step the other side with a
>> single jump.
>>
>> If only you had a bridge to connect one side with the other,
>> you'll step on the bridge, and be neither side during all of your
>> path. Your travel will be possibly unconfortable and dangerous, but
>> not such hopeless as the unique, impossible jump.
>>
>> Model your bridge. It may be done of 12 steps, or perhaps many
>> more. But it worth building it.
>
>I found this metaphor illuminating.
<snip>
>Yes, I was being too black and white. People must find their own
>personal, feels-right balance between the two extremes, on the one hand
>"I am the way I am and I act the way I want, if people don't like it
>that's their problem", what might be called the
>picking-your-nose-at-the-restaurant-table syndrome... and at the other
>extreme "I will do anything for acceptance, no matter if it is a total
>falsification of what I am like", aka the
>gosh-I-do-like-your-orange-tie-and-purple-shirt
>syndrome... As usual, wisdom lies somewhere in between, I suppose.
"In medium stat virtus", this applies to wisdom as well. Being totally
and utterly sincere is not real. A consistent sincerity, in all the
aspects of real life, leads to something extreme, like "The
Misantrope" of Molière.
There is another metaphor, by the Italian poet Leopardi. He tells of a
group of porcupines, facing a very cold winter. They go close to each
other to get some warmth, but they're so pricky, that they get hurt.
Then they depart from each other. But they feel cold again. Then they
go close once more. But they hurt.
After a number of these pricky and cold experiences, they finally find
a good distance: not too close to hurt, nor too far to be cold.
The happy crowd found a name for that distance. They call it
"politeness".
Talking of politeness, I let you the last word:
>Something like sticking up for what you see as the real, deep-down you,
>but being prepared to review the accrued habits and inappropriate
>conditioning you've been subjected to. After all, there are people who
>are full of interest in others and desire for human relationships, who
>yet find it feels "false" and embarrassing to say just "how are you?" to
>someone. And maybe just learning to say that with the right intonation
>and smile is all they need to start making friends....
>OB
All the best
Raffaele
<http://www.angelfire.com/mi/raffaele55/>
Posting FAQ for ASL
<http://www.angelfire.com/mi/raffaele55/aslfaq.html>
Another Support for Loneliness (The ASL Website):
<http://homepages.go.com/~aslhome/aslhome.html>
King
Hello again, OB!
On Sun, 01 Aug 1999 13:26:22 +0200, OB not yet on holiday
<obl...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>King wrote:
>> such a thing may be inscribed in the genes, as a permanent
>> personality trait. Same for being lonely. Who knows?
>
>I didn't mean that, actually. I meant that some people are born with
>genetically-based physical handicaps which affect their self-esteem and
>it is often this self-esteem problem, NOT the physical "cause" itself,
>which can result in isolation and loneliness. What a group like this can
>do is help to sort out the self-esteem problem. This is best done, I
>think, not by being dismissive about the source of people's hang-ups,
>but by being understanding and respectful but at the same time
>demonstrating that what really matters is how you view yourself - that
>self-confidence that you show - and the interest in others, as Solitude
>rightly said - is what other people (if they have any depth and are in
>the least bit worth knowing) will catch on to and respond to. Last year
>I was helped a great deal by someone called Solo (who I do not now see
>posting on the group, to my chagrin) who argued this forcefully to me in
>my own case.
Solo you said? I didn't find her in my server, but it seems that she
reappeared a few days ago.
Thanks for clarifying that issue.
>> There is something wrong with mint, as mint-reading is frowned upon
>> here. Try raspberry.
>
>I think it is perhaps fortunate that there is no agreed Internet symbol
>for blowing raspberries....
Why?
>> Agree with the last remark, only I don't think that there is no
>> inconsistency in being yourself and follow a program.
>
>Objection sustained.
:o)
>> You mean that in 20 years you didn't ever succeed to untagle them?
>> (Tee-hee, just kidding).
>
>It's all right for you, you've only got two to worry about.... Try
>untangling six and see how far YOU get...
LOL! Six legs like a bug? This must be very bugging! But me, being a
flying dragon, I've sometimes to untangle my long tail.
>> Now to the point. It is true that the change should start inside.
>> Changing one or two habits will not be magic, and even if you do,
>> other symptoms of insecurity will appear. So I agree on that.
>>
>> OTOH, it seems to me that your attitude, on this issue, is too
>> black-and-white. A small change, even if not the way you sit,
>> may have a good pay-back. Especially when a relevant change,
>> that inside, is still unavailable.
>
>This is making sense....
>
>> Let's pretend that you're one side of a large chasm, willing to jump
>> the other side. But you don't, because you're afraid of falling on the
>> flight. You have no magic to fly. No way to step the other side with a
>> single jump.
>>
>> If only you had a bridge to connect one side with the other,
>> you'll step on the bridge, and be neither side during all of your
>> path. Your travel will be possibly unconfortable and dangerous, but
>> not such hopeless as the unique, impossible jump.
>>
>> Model your bridge. It may be done of 12 steps, or perhaps many
>> more. But it worth building it.
>
>I found this metaphor illuminating.
<snip>
>Yes, I was being too black and white. People must find their own
>personal, feels-right balance between the two extremes, on the one hand
>"I am the way I am and I act the way I want, if people don't like it
>that's their problem", what might be called the
>picking-your-nose-at-the-restaurant-table syndrome... and at the other
>extreme "I will do anything for acceptance, no matter if it is a total
>falsification of what I am like", aka the
>gosh-I-do-like-your-orange-tie-and-purple-shirt
>syndrome... As usual, wisdom lies somewhere in between, I suppose.
"In medium stat virtus", this applies to wisdom as well. Being totally
and utterly sincere is not real. A consistent sincerity, in all the
aspects of real life, leads to something extreme, like "The
Misantrope" of Molière.
There is another metaphor, by the Italian poet Leopardi. He tells of a
group of porcupines, facing a very cold winter. They go close to each
other to get some warmth, but they're so pricky, that they get hurt.
Then they depart from each other. But they feel cold again. Then they
go close once more. But they hurt.
After a number of these pricky and cold experiences, they finally find
a good distance: not too close to hurt, nor too far to be cold.
The happy crowd found a name for that distance. They call it
"politeness".
Talking of politeness, I let you the last word:
>Something like sticking up for what you see as the real, deep-down you,
>but being prepared to review the accrued habits and inappropriate
>conditioning you've been subjected to. After all, there are people who
>are full of interest in others and desire for human relationships, who
>yet find it feels "false" and embarrassing to say just "how are you?" to
>someone. And maybe just learning to say that with the right intonation
>and smile is all they need to start making friends....
>OB
All the best
Raffaele
<http://www.angelfire.com/mi/raffaele55/>
maria
but he was a lucky man in many ways.
Maria
ChantillyLace
life. However, I DO know how to get one. I just can't
bring myself to do it.
If you have a job (I don't), you certainly DO have a life.
You get to interact with other human beings. Outside of
work, as someone pointed out, JOIN things. You don't have
to feign interest. Only go to things that you're interested
in.
When someone DOES speak to you, SMILE. Look him/her in the
eyes! No one is attracted to a sour puss. You might not
even know that you look that way. Check a mirror. You
might also have a depressed expression because you want
sympathy. Get rid of it! Ask questions about the other
person...even if it's only to ask where they got the shirt
they're wearing.
There are so many possibilities. If you see someone reading
a book, if you are VERY careful, you could interupt them and
tell them you were thinking of reading that and ask how they
like it. Comment on the kind of coffee you order in
Starbucks to the person standing next to you. Ask the
person behind or in front of you on line in the supermarket
about some product in their cart that you're interested in.
Join a bowling league. There ARE leagues that are just for
fun and no one bowls very well.
Above all, smile. Studies have shown that smiling actually
does make you feel better. Practice holding your head up,
your shoulders back, and smiling. People are attracted to
people who make THEM feel good. Concentrate on making OTHER
people feel good; you might surprise yourself.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Graham
Beaudoin) wrote:
>All this to say that I wodner: did you ever ask a
>ear/nose/throat specialist about that?
>Even if it coudl be with eye symptoms, never know: sinuses
>can affect eyes, for instance...
>
>Long shot, maybe, but would it not be worth a try to check
>with a dr?
>
>Chloe
>
It could well be. I've always been a bit doctor-shy though :)
Thanks for the reply
Take care,
Graham
Awen
Just wanted to thank you for this lovely post. Just think what a
beautiful world it would be if we all did that? Your friend somehow
discovered a great secret of life in the midst of all the abuse he
received--I imagine he was a blessed soul.
Awen
Bill
ourselves. If we feel comfortable with our selves then others will feel
comfortable around us. How to acheive that is beyond me. I,ve heard that
hypnosis has worked wonders. The way we act, and the way we view our selves
is a learned experiance. Hypnosiss is suppose to be able to crack the walls
we put up change the way we feel about our selves.
I have probably over simplified. Your family doctor will be able to
answer more questions.
Bill
Truthseeker wrote in message <37a2d628...@news.mindspring.com>...
Bill
Keeping busy does keep the demon at rest.
Bill
David wrote in message ...
Bill
I'm not a champion of the tough love theroys. But your words and honest
carring made sense. I'm sure all of us could find a bit of us in here.
Perhaps that's why I went on the defensive. I think you should post this
once in awhile to the group.
solit...@my-deja.com wrote in message <7nvfsv$i4j$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>Let me start out by saying that if you're in a fragile state of mind at
>the moment, then you shouldn't read any further. After reading this
>post I went back and read some of the ones you've written prior to this
>and quickly realized that what you really need is what we used to refer
>to as "a good swift kick in the ass."
>
>
>1) Stop whining. Just STOP. An occasional bout isn't bad, but from
>what I've read, it's all that you do.
>
>messages I went back and read, it was easy to see that you tend to put
>other groups down quickly. You referred to the people in
>alt.support.depression as "jerks" and I'm not even going to go into what
>you implied about autistic people. Nobody wants to be around someone
>who is always putting down other groups. Personally, any chance of me
>and you being RL friends would have been gone as soon as you started off
>on the autistic people -- and frankly, if that had been in person, me
>and you would have had some serious words that evening. The bottom line
>is though, that putting down other groups will not endear you to anyone.
>
>calling yourself a "loser" and saying your "hopeless." Would you want
>to be around someone who did that? (If you answer is "yes" then you
>need to, in the words of Henry Messenger, "put the crack pipe down and
>take three steps back.")
>
>how much I enjoyed that line in particular and the whole way that you
>explained ARPAnet, but I just did not get there.]
>
>Barbara (sorry if I'm wrong, but I'm having trouble keeping names
>straight) who suggested each day writing down five good things that
>happened to you. That's a good idea, try it. Then stick with it.
>
>often. When was the last time you actually paid somebody a compliment?
>I'm not only talking in asl, but in the real world. If you make people
>whatever you do, don't follow up your compliment to them with an insult
>to yourself (i.e., "Gee, Solitude, you're so wise, smart and handsome.
>I wish I could be like you, but I'm a loser.") "Compliments" like that
>are not something that people will want to receive.
>
>in reading your replies to other people's posts is that you managed to
>bring it back completely to yourself. For example, in your reply to
>Jenn's "Vent (long and boring)," all you did was talk about yourself (in
>negative terms) and how even if you had talked to the person it just
>would have led to rejection. So try spending a little less time
>focusing on your own shortcomings and problems. People won't want to
>talk to you if you are that self-absorbed.
>
>try to take positive steps towards making yourself a better person.
>When was the last time you actually did something like that and stayed
>with it?
>
>have faith and stay the course, you can become the person you want to
>be. On this point, I recommend you read Confused's post "An Anwer
>(semi-long)" and Awen's response to it.
>
>get out of the victim-mentality that Confused wrote about. You are not
>lonely because of your genetics.
>
>it's worth a shot.
>
>they match? How you present yourself is a signal of the amount of
>respect you have for yourself and the two often have a positive feedback
>dress better generally feel more confident Repeat as desired.
>
>12) Read Dale Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People." I
>don't like, or generally read, self-help books. This one is different.
>It was actually written to help salesmen make a good impression on
>people that they have never met. If you are someone who lacks "da'
>social skills" this is a book you should read. It will help you make a
>better first impression. And that is a start.
>
>victim mentality and start to take positive steps to make your life
>better, you *can* do it -- you just have to get with the program.
>
>comfortable than risking the possibility of rejection. So maybe all of
>this is unnecessary.
>
>
>
>
>
LadyJae
Eleonore Beaudoin wrote:
> LadyJae (Lad...@ccms.net) writes:
> > OB not yet on holiday wrote:
> >
> >> "Anyone wishing to post in alt.support.loneliness for support,
> >> caring and/or advice for their loneliness, need only start writing to
> >> us and speaking their heart and telling us of their problems with
> >> loneliness or just telling us that they'd like to be here with us or
> >> sharing a poem, story or song they like or have written."
> >>
> >> I think Chris D may be excused for interpreting this as an invitation to
> >> talk openly about his feelings and problems. I would have read it that way
> >> myself.
> >
> > I don't think that anyone need be excused for interpreting this as an
> > invitation to talk openly about their feelings and problesms *with loneliness*.
> > That is exactly what I said and exactly what I meant. Jae
>
> If it is THEIR feelings and THEIR problems of loneliness,
> how come you then go around selecting what is or not fittign
> that description of yours?:)
Oh??? Did you mistake the meaning of my words, Chloe. Read them again. I'll
leave them here for you. As usual, you are twisting them to make something "bad" out
of something "good".
>
>
> Nice owrds.
If they are so nice, why did you feel the need to make a nasty comment on them?
>
>
> I donlt see you applying them woth Raf, with me, with anyone.
It's my choice who I choose to support and I most certainly do not choose to
support you or raf when you are, in my opinion, causing disruption in every way that
you can.
>
>
> Soem people do not want to talk about private things in a
> place where peole like you put them down.
I don't put people down who speak of private things, Chloe. I do speak out when
people *like you* insult others and take shots at me. If you don't like getting
fired back on, then don't start firing.
> Soem pwoudl prefer to find a few they can relate to in here,
> then see if they can feel confortabel to talk with them in
> private, rather than risk your namecalling their words
> garbage or your friends calling them turds, vile, repulsive,
> etc, when exactly: they dunno me. Nor do you. Cause I just
> donlt trust peo-le like you.
Oh, I'm responsible for the words of my friends? Guess I can hold you
responsible for the words of your friends, too. Right? I don't much care if you
trust me or not, Chloe. <laugh> Why should I? I most certainly don't trust you.
All I know of you are the words you post here and the words you mailed me. I don't
truly care to know any more of you, thank you very much.
>
>
> Big talking.
> No faqing action, Jae.
>
> Sounds good.
> Acts rotten.
>
More of your "love" for everybody, Chloe?
Nanny
Nanny
--
Don't be reckless with other peoples hearts.
Don't put up with people who are reckless with yours.
To reply by email remove 4cats.
lemn...@my-deja.com wrote in message <7o29ka$b11$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>In article <37a2d628...@news.mindspring.com>,
> truths...@mindspring.com wrote:
Frans
>Hey Chris! I have the same problem as you have. I need a
>life. However, I DO know how to get one. I just can't
>bring myself to do it.
>
>If you have a job (I don't), you certainly DO have a life.
>You get to interact with other human beings. Outside of
>work, as someone pointed out, JOIN things. You don't have
>to feign interest. Only go to things that you're interested
>in.
>
>When someone DOES speak to you, SMILE. Look him/her in the
>eyes! No one is attracted to a sour puss. You might not
>even know that you look that way. Check a mirror. You
>might also have a depressed expression because you want
>sympathy. Get rid of it! Ask questions about the other
>person...even if it's only to ask where they got the shirt
>they're wearing.
>
>There are so many possibilities. If you see someone reading
>a book, if you are VERY careful, you could interupt them and
>tell them you were thinking of reading that and ask how they
>like it. Comment on the kind of coffee you order in
>Starbucks to the person standing next to you. Ask the
>person behind or in front of you on line in the supermarket
>about some product in their cart that you're interested in.
> Join a bowling league. There ARE leagues that are just for
>fun and no one bowls very well.
**** Boy oh boy, do I agree with this...:))
thank you ChantillyLace for this advice...
Frans
Eleonore Beaudoin
As long as you do not have to drive there, right...;=-)L:)
Hi, Graham.
Nice name. Don't hear it too often here. On asl too, but I
mean in Canada.
Thanks for acknowledging my post....
I know it was not a very good reply....I write real bad
soemtimes, and sometimes I write real worse:)
It then is appreciated even more that you replied to me!
Thanks....!
Chloe
Graham (g.s.f...@dur.ac.uk) writes:
> On 1 Aug 1999 19:01:58 GMT, bc...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Eleonore
> Beaudoin) wrote:
>
>>All this to say that I wodner: did you ever ask a
>>ear/nose/throat specialist about that?
>>Even if it coudl be with eye symptoms, never know: sinuses
>>can affect eyes, for instance...
>>
>>Long shot, maybe, but would it not be worth a try to check
>>with a dr?
>>
>>Chloe
>>
>
Bryan Sin Nombre
<anon...@web.remarq.com> wrote:
>Above all, smile. Studies have shown that smiling actually
>does make you feel better.
What about those of us who have smiles that make them
physically uglier?
(I have pictures to prove it.)
Bryan Sin Nombre
Bryan Sin Nombre
>This is in memoriam SK
>
>Truthseeker, you get a life by being kind to people
No offense, but I've tried that one. It doesn't work.
At least, not for those of us with unhealthy doses of
anti-charisma.
Bryan Sin Nombre
solit...@my-deja.com
> Personally, I doubt that on the basis of reading a few posts any of us
can
> diagnose what anyone else here "really needs". We know very little of
the
> circumstances of those who write here. All we can go by is what they
*say*
> they *want* - not what we *think* they *need*.
I agree with this for the most part. Perhaps "really needs" was too
strong a term. But I certainly do not agree that all we have to go on
is what they say. There is also the *way* in which they say things. In
this case, Truthseeker referred to himself as a "loser." Now you are
saying that all I have to go on is his word that he *is* a loser. I
don't agree. I think that it is easy to conclude based upon his
characterizations of himself and his circumstances that he is someone
without a whole lot of self confidence. That he is not a in fact a
loser, but just portrays himself in this way. This alone can lead to a
number of conclusions, many of which I expressed in my message.
> Someone comes along and says
> "I want something" (eg support). We can choose to give whatever it is
(if we
> have it) or not. Our individual choice. That's about it.
In this case, Truthseeker asked for "advice" (his word). I had it to
give. I gave it. My individual choice. So what exactly is your point?
> Guilty. I'm a whiner too. But only here, never IRL. People's Net
persona is
> sometimes different from their real life persona. It's not hypocrisy,
it may
> be that IRL there is just no-one to open up to. "Whining" may be all
the
> writer does here (don't know, haven't read other posts) but one cannot
draw
> conclusions about real life problems on that basis. What is the
definition
> of "whining", by the way? Is it saying you have a problem and asking
for
> help?
That's kind of strange to admit that you are a whiner, but then to ask
me what a whiner is, isn't it? Nevertheless, I'll respond to your
point. You make a good point that there may be a sample bias at work
here: I've never seen him in RL, so what I'm trying to do is
extrapolate his behavior here to outside life. You're right, that could
be a mistake. But, people who do not believe that they are losers, that
is people who think they are winners, do not go around calling
themselves losers (they may in jest, but I really don't think that is
what Truthseeker had in mind) -- unless of course they are rock stars,
like in the Radiohead lyrics that Jenn posted. While personas may
differ between here and RL, I can't believe that they change *that*
much.
As for my definition of whining, it is: to complain about circumstances
that one is either unable or, in most cases (especially this one),
unwilling to change. So, no, it is not saying you have a problem and
asking for help. It's going around saying your a "loser" or "hopeless"
or half-a-dozen other derogatory words, when only HE can change the
circumstances.
> That, I can't help agreeing with, on a general basis. In the post I
read I
> didn't see any of this "putting down other groups". Consequently, no
> judgment made.
Therefore, I shall not expound.
> Beg to differ. I have replied to this person in private, and to others
who
> expressed similar feelings. Maybe I'm weird, but I **do** want to be
around
> people who repeatedly say they are losers and hopeless... or to put it
> differently and less argumentatively, I seek friends among those I
feel I
> can relate to, with whom I feel I have something in common, and since
low
> self-esteem is a problem I have myself, I feel drawn in a friendly way
to
> people who seem to have the same problem. Like likes like, they say...
I
> think that a person with low self-esteem is in good company here,
there are
> many of us, and with goodwill we can help each other.
That may be true, but I certainly don't feel that's true of the bulk of
the population. If like attracts like and people will be attracted to
Truthseeker because he says he is a loser or hopeless, then he shouldn't
have any trouble finding friends. But that doesn't seem to be the case.
Instead, he said that people intentionally avoid him, and I am saying
that is partly because *most people* don't like to be around people they
consider "downers."
> Again, I agree. It's now 12.09 Spanish time, so I suppose I missed my
chance
> to make up the full five. I counted two yesterday. Which was better
than the
> day before, but worse than the day before that!
What can I say? Barbara, or whomever came up with this idea, is a smart
person. :)
> An important point. I must try that more often:)
A good tip for all of us. :)
> Again, depends on the people....
Yes, but I think it is true for most people. This again goes back to
the idea that people, in general, do not like to be around people that
are going to depress them.
> There is truth in this, but again I think it was an
oversimplification.
> Sometimes you will find in life that there are people who *want* to
hear
> about *you*. On this group especially. If I may quote from Jae:
>
> "Anyone wishing to post in alt.support.loneliness for support,
> caring and/or advice for their loneliness, need only start writing to
> us and speaking their heart and telling us of their problems with
> loneliness or just telling us that they'd like to be here with us or
> sharing a poem, story or song they like or have written."
>
> I think Chris D may be excused for interpreting this as an invitation
to
> talk openly about his feelings and problems. I would have read it that
way
> myself.
There's a HUGE difference between sharing personal experience and
self-absorbtion. You've said you haven't read any of his posts, so if
you want to understand the difference, please read them and you'll see.
> I think this is good advice... would you care to give a few examples?
I find
> that most (not all) of the things I can think of that might improve my
self
> image cost money, which I don't have. Others require an investment of
time
> that conflicts with work schedules and deadlines. But it's a nice
idea.
Thank you, I think it's a good idea too. As for suggestions, there are
tons of things that you could do that don't need to cost money. I'm a
big believer (though not a practitioner in the past year) of exercise.
There are plenty of other things, though. You could take up the old Boy
Scout idea of trying to do at least one good deed per day. You could
ask the people around you that you come in contact with every day about
their lives. Show them that you are interest in them and care about
them. You could do volunteer work. Maybe read more and watch less TV.
It really depends upon the aspects of your life that you think need to
be changed, but there are plenty of monetarily cheap steps that you can
take.
> Will read. Currently cannot comment.
Very much worth reading. Confused and Awen are bright people.
> How do you know? Some people are.
>
> But I agree that what you do can sometimes override what you are in a
most
> astonishing way, as I have tried to explain, with illustration, to one
or
> two recent private correspondents. If what you are trying to say is
"don't
> let physical disabilities and unalterable circumstances win", then I'm
fully
> in agreement with you. Genes can be bastards sometimes (don't I know
it) but
> as we say in the UK "don't let the bastards get you down"... ALL
of us
> here have unsuspected potentials and capabilities. Let's work on
those.
This (what I wrote) is opinion. I just don't buy a lot of the things
that are being attributed to genetics. Even if people are
genetically-predisposed to things like crime, I believe that they can
avoid being criminals. Even if people have genes that lead them to be
alone, they can overcome them. This is just something that I believe.
But, I also know enough statistical theory to understand the difference
between correlation and causation, so I don't believe a lot of the
studies that say that genes predispose people to certain types of
behavior. IMO, environment is much more important than genetics.
As for "don't let the bastards get you down," I completely agree.
> Agreed. Also mint flavoured mouthwash. Certainly helped me!:) (Though
not in
> ASL. Can't imagine why...)
Just wait. One day they'll invent "scratch'n'snif" monitors and the
mouthwash will come in real handy. :)
> Yes... that's amazing. How did you know?
> Please supply a colour chart and I'll tell you...
> Agreed.
> Disagreed. If I were to dress well I'd spend my time thinking "People
must
> be guffawing soundlessly at the spectacle of such a walking offence to
human
> dignity wearing those ridiculously inappropriate clothes".
> ..... (repeating)
This, I believe, is common knowledge. I'm pretty sure that Jae and
others at one point in an earlier post made this exact point to someone
-- it was the guy who drove his father's car to the gas station and
suddenly had women interested in him. So while it may not work for you,
I think it helps the rest of us.
> Disagree. I've read it and while it is an excellent training manual
for
> insurance salesmen, that's ALL it is. It has no personal relevance to
me or
> to anyone I've ever met whatsoever. If you've ever been badgered by a
house
> to house insurance salesman, you've read the book. Do YOU want to
sound like
> that?
I'm sorry, but if there's logic here, I just don't see it. That's like
saying "I don't like math because the mathematicians in my high school
used to tease me." Or "I don't like the Bible because a street
preacher yelled at me yesterday." The book makes many suggestions that
I have found very helpful in dealing with situations where I had to meet
new people. There's a reason why this book is still around more than 60
years after it was first published. So what exactly was it about THE
BOOK that you did not like? Which suggestions did you not agree with?
> You DO have the power to change. But there is no program. You have to
go by
> instinct and above all - BE YOURSELF.
While there may not be a program that will work with everyone, there are
certainly suggestions for self-improvement that can help. Instinct
isn't a lot of help for many people, especially for those who are shy or
have social fears where their instincts tell them to avoid meeting new
people. In a lot of cases, I think the change that is necessary in
people who are lonely is that they need to overcome their instincts
which are causing them to act in ways that lead to their loneliness.
> I think there was some excellent advice in there.
Thank you.
> Speaking for myself only,
> I think it is sensible to distinguish between "the possibility of
rejection"
> which derives from certain courses of action and "the certainty of
> rejection" which derives from others. But above all, I think it is
important
> to point out that being rejected is not the same as being wrong.
I agree completely.
Well you're obviously *still* not sitting correctly. ;-) Yes, the idea
that how you sit determines how many friends you will have is silly (but
I would like to point out to others who might be reading this that even
though you used the phrase "make friends and influence people" that did
NOT come out of Carnegie's book). But that doesn't mean that you can't
influence how confident you feel by taking actions even before you start
to actually feel confident. If you are nice to other people and make
them feel good being around you, they will want to be around you. That,
in turn, will make you feel better about yourself (as so many other
people have said in response to Truthseeker's post).
Maddogg
Raffaele's faq is unofficial, and invalid... raffaele does not
speak for this group, nor is his faq worth the 1s and 0s it
takes to comprise it... There is no faq for ASL... any and
all attempts to imply otherwise, are blatant lies, and are
nothing more than attempts at manipulation...
Raffaele does not represent ASL, as he tries so hard to
give that impression, in his latest bid for stolen credibility,
and "kingdom"... raff only represents raff, and he certainly
does not represent this group, nor does he represent me...
And all his manipulations, and deceitful tactics, will never
change that...
Just as my own words represent only my own opinions,
one person cannot speak for others, or for any group of
people, without their approval, and agreement...
Michael
In article <37a4a7d2...@news.telware.it>, ki...@telware.it wrote:
<snipped>
Frans
>What about those of us who have smiles that make them
>physically uglier?
>
>(I have pictures to prove it.)
>
>
>Bryan Sin Nombre
wrong photographer. pictures do lie.
try comedy class, for fun only. they teach you how to laugh. to cry we
know how, don't we?
keep it cool, Frans
OB
solit...@my-deja.com wrote:
> I think that it is easy to conclude based upon his
> characterizations of himself and his circumstances that he is someone
> without a whole lot of self confidence. That he is not a in fact a
> loser, but just portrays himself in this way.
Yes. Of course you have to read between the lines (quote from "Leave Her to
Heaven" in case anyone didn't recognise it). As you say, the original post
was from someone with low self-esteem. My point was really just a quibble
about the general tone of your original post. I agreed with a lot of your
advice, but I also think that there are literally hundreds of NGs that one
can go to in order to be told "what you need is a kick in the butt" whereas
*this* NG ought initially and by default to show IMO a little more
understanding and sympathy and awareness of causes, since low self-esteem is
a problem here for very, very many of us. It's clear that you care and want
to help, otherwise you wouldn't have gone to so much trouble writing. But I
couldn't help thinking that certain remarks came across as a bit dismissive
and likely to alienate the reader rather than make him want to follow the
advice. That's all, and yes, maybe it was a wrong impression on my part.
> That's kind of strange to admit that you are a whiner, but then to ask
> me what a whiner is, isn't it?
I am a whiner according to my definition. I was interested in knowing
yours:)
> But, people who do not believe that they are losers, that
> is people who think they are winners, do not go around calling
> themselves losers (they may in jest, but I really don't think that is
> what Truthseeker had in mind) -- unless of course they are rock stars,
> like in the Radiohead lyrics that Jenn posted. While personas may
> differ between here and RL, I can't believe that they change *that*
> much.
I think it is a lot more complicated than that. I may call myself a loser (I
often do) while recognising that some of my personal circumstances might be
considered enviable by some who are worse off than me. Calling oneself a
loser may be read as a cry for attention, or as a claim to membership of a
group where a lot of time is spent discussing "problems". I think it's
simplistic to imply that everyone thinks permanently of themselves as either
a "loser" or a "winner". There are nuances and there are moods. But this
isn't important here.
> That may be true, but I certainly don't feel that's true of the bulk of
> the population. If like attracts like and people will be attracted to
> Truthseeker because he says he is a loser or hopeless, then he shouldn't
> have any trouble finding friends. But that doesn't seem to be the case.
> Instead, he said that people intentionally avoid him, and I am saying
> that is partly because *most people* don't like to be around people they
> consider "downers."
That may be true, but it may also be a mistaken perception. From past
experience, I know that while it may *seem* that people are avoiding you, it
may be that you are just failing to "clinch" at the right time, to follow up
on the opportunities for human contact which are being presented to you.
Advice here is certainly in order, but outside the scope of a short post.
> There's a HUGE difference between sharing personal experience and
> self-absorbtion. You've said you haven't read any of his posts, so if
> you want to understand the difference, please read them and you'll see.
Again, from experience, self-absorption is something that sometimes requires
a special effort of kindness to break out of.
> I'm a
> big believer (though not a practitioner in the past year) of exercise.
> There are plenty of other things, though. You could take up the old Boy
> Scout idea of trying to do at least one good deed per day. You could
> ask the people around you that you come in contact with every day about
> their lives. Show them that you are interest in them and care about
> them. You could do volunteer work. Maybe read more and watch less TV.
All this is too good to snip.
> This (what I wrote) is opinion. I just don't buy a lot of the things
> that are being attributed to genetics.
I expressed myself badly there - see followup reply to King.
> So what exactly was it about THE
> BOOK that you did not like? Which suggestions did you not agree with?
Not a question of disagreeing - I just found it did not address the
particular social difficulties I had/have, and had difficulty applying it to
acquaintances with similar problems.
> While there may not be a program that will work with everyone, there are
> certainly suggestions for self-improvement that can help.
Granted.
> Instinct
> isn't a lot of help for many people, especially for those who are shy or
> have social fears where their instincts tell them to avoid meeting new
> people. In a lot of cases, I think the change that is necessary in
> people who are lonely is that they need to overcome their instincts
> which are causing them to act in ways that lead to their loneliness.
Yes - I referred to "wrong conditioning" in follow-up post mentioned
earlier. Instinct for me is what tells you that a particular piece of
advice, while useful for some, will not work in your case. Example: the
clothes thing in my case. If I dress in any other way than I am accustomed
to doing, I would feel self-conscious and feel that everyone was laughing at
me. I dress in a way calculated to avoid that problem: my clothes say "it's
OK, I know I am not aesthetically pleasing, don't worry, I'm not trying to
compete with anyone there". Dressing like this means that there is one less
false impression I have to worry about. But I admit that the advice to
"dress up" may be valid for others.
> But that doesn't mean that you can't
> influence how confident you feel by taking actions even before you start
> to actually feel confident. If you are nice to other people and make
> them feel good being around you, they will want to be around you. That,
> in turn, will make you feel better about yourself (as so many other
> people have said in response to Truthseeker's post).
Well, my own personal reply to Truthseeker, written before posting on the
subject, said this:
> You'll find that just as there is a vicious circle of
> no friends = no self esteem = no friends....
> so it also works the opposite way:
> make a friend = higher self esteem = make more friends....
So I guess we're really in agreement here...
OB
Nanny
A picture just shows a frozen part of your smile, and does not necessarily
do justice to the whole thing :-)
Nanny
--
Don't be reckless with other peoples hearts.
Don't put up with people who are reckless with yours.
To reply by email remove 4cats.
Bryan Sin Nombre wrote in message <37a50a8b...@enews.newsguy.com>...
>On Sun, 01 Aug 1999 14:29:29 -0800, ChantillyLace
><anon...@web.remarq.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Above all, smile. Studies have shown that smiling actually
>>does make you feel better.
>
Eleonore Beaudoin
Maybe you are doing what you think I am.
Please refer to my lat post just rplied to (one of your
previous, last I just posted here)./
See your words again in there, about "the correct direction
in your opinion"....
Thanks.
Chloe
LadyJae (Lad...@ccms.net)
writes: > Eleonore Beaudoin wrote:
>
>> LadyJae (Lad...@ccms.net) writes:
>> > OB not yet on holiday wrote:
>> >
>> >> "Anyone wishing to post in alt.support.loneliness for support,
>> >> caring and/or advice for their loneliness, need only start writing to
>> >> us and speaking their heart and telling us of their problems with
>> >> loneliness or just telling us that they'd like to be here with us or
>> >> sharing a poem, story or song they like or have written."
>> >>
>> >> I think Chris D may be excused for interpreting this as an invitation to
>> >> talk openly about his feelings and problems. I would have read it that way
>> >> myself.
>> >
King
Hello Graham and welcome!
(and hello again Truthseeker, even if I snipped your words).
More...
On Sun, 01 Aug 1999 17:07:11 GMT, g.s.f...@dur.ac.uk (Graham)
wrote:
>I have a similar problem. I'm terrible at talking, and it really
>makes it hard for me to make friends, to make people like me. I'm sure
>it's a cognitive thing. I never know what to say to someone, never
>have anything interesting to say or any witty responses. On IRC or
>ICQ I'm fine, it's just real life voice communication that I can't
>handle.
Do you mean that this is not real time that bugs you, but just the
direct contact with the person?
>Sometimes when I'm talking and people are listening to me, I get
>overly conscious of the fact that people are watching and listening to
>me, and my eyes start to water. Then I become aware that my eyes are
>watering, which makes me panic and my eyes water even more. I try to
>stop talking quickly at that point and end up looking really stupid.
This may be a symptom of shyness that makes you too emotional
with direct contact. An alternative explanation to your cognitive one.
A loop like: watering - being noticed - see that you are noticed -
watering again -... is typical of shyness.
What about a third way to communicate other than direct and cyber,
that is the phone? The same may be asked to Truthseeker. Real time
is not the same that physical contact.
>I've suffered from this since roughly when I started High School (when
>I was 11). I was fine before then. I'm not sure that my social
>skills are good enough for me to have a decent career, even though I
>am intelligent enough.
It depends on career, even if social skills have importance for almost
all works. What you tell above makes me doubt even more about a
cognitive cause. It would have been apparent before. OTOH, emotional
distress when changing school is quite common. What happened at the
starting of High School?
>Also, I can't drive. I don't understand traffic very well. Dunno if
>that is related.
Do you want to tell more about that? To panic because of inexperience
or having had traumatic experiences related to car accidents may be a
reason. If neither apply, it is probably related.
>Sorry this message wasn't very useful
Yours has been one of the most topical messages I've seen recently.
>-Graham
> (loves Queen also)
Be warned: speaking of Queen here and now *may* be dangerous! ;o)
All the best
Raffaele
<http://www.angelfire.com/mi/raffaele55/>
Posting FAQ for ASL
Maddogg
>There is no Posting FAQ for ASL
><http://www.angesnip
>Another Support for Loneliness is just another website, nothing more
><http://homesnip
Graham
Beaudoin) wrote:
>
>
>As long as you do not have to drive there, right...;=-)L:)
>
>Hi, Graham.
>Nice name. Don't hear it too often here. On asl too, but I
>mean in Canada.
In case you thought otherwise... it's pronounced 'Gray-am'. I have a
close friend on the internet who lives in the States. After a year
and a half it became apparent that she had thought all along that my
name was pronounced "Gram". Now it was weird for both of us to find
out she thought that!
I was in America for two weeks this summer and none of the souvenir
shops sold mugs with my name on em. That was strangely upsetting :(
Thanks,
Graham
LadyJae
g.s.f...@dur.ac.uk (Graham) wrote:
> In case you thought otherwise... it's pronounced 'Gray-am'. I have a
> close friend on the internet who lives in the States. After a year
> and a half it became apparent that she had thought all along that my
> name was pronounced "Gram". Now it was weird for both of us to find
> out she thought that!
>
> I was in America for two weeks this summer and none of the souvenir
> shops sold mugs with my name on em. That was strangely upsetting :(
>
> Thanks,
>
> Graham
>
>
I just thought that I would tell you that we havd "Grahams" here in
Texas, and pronounced the same way as you said. At least one that I
know is a native born Texan. Back in the "old days", <smile> Some of
our largest cattle ranch owners were British and many of the names that
were common in England have not only survived the years, but have grown
in usage. Jae
Eleonore Beaudoin
If ever I find a miugbwith your name on it, I will ask you
your address and mail you one:)
Or if ever I can find ne of those plces wehre they
engrave names on mugs:)
I remember as a kid, in he books in school, they always had
everyone's name in some story. In those days no one was
ever named "Chloe". Which by the way is pronounced "Klo-ay",
not Chlo-ie, nor Shloe. Ask me why, I woudl meet english
speakong Candians and say my nyma waw "Klo-ay" and they
woudl spell it in their haed then call me "Shloe".
I often had penpals for years that then woudl call me "Cleo"
too. At Church where I work, many still call me "Cleo".
I have such a list of first names anyway, that mnay call me
by some of my other names. Chris, Cri, Christo
, Cri-Cri, Clo, Clo-Clo, Lenora, Lanore, Elle, you anme it...
"Name calling" had a kind menaing in Quebec I guess;-):)
I knew your name was "Gray-ham":).
Some actually do pronounce "Gra'am". But I just read it
"Gray-ham" in my head.
I'll keep my eyes opened for a mug or soemthign else wuth
your name on it:)
Never know....
Chloe
Graham (g.s.f...@dur.ac.uk) writes:
> On 2 Aug 1999 00:57:19 GMT, bc...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Eleonore
> Beaudoin) wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>As long as you do not have to drive there, right...;=-)L:)
>>
>>Hi, Graham.
>>Nice name. Don't hear it too often here. On asl too, but I
>>mean in Canada.
>
Bill
Should be a dime
Bill
Chief wrote in message <37A869B5...@banet.net>...
>B u t when you can't work loneliness can seem worse simply because you do
>indeed have more time on your hands "alone." That's a nickel - hehe
>
>Yankee Hugs
>Eddie (chief)
- ikabopo -
out, and you will live another life more hopeless than this one, until
you get it right. so, suck it the fuck up, do it right this time, and
save yourself some trouble.
BooBooTheBear
wrote:
> so you are hopeless. darn. if you kill yourself you are just wimping
> out, and you will live another life more hopeless than this one, until
> save yourself some trouble.
>
Sweet friend, please do not allow yourself to fall under the false
infuences here of a demonically possessed woman who insists that *TWO*
Gods reign in heaven, or those evil minions of hers that desire to
kowtow to her unholy approval. Stand up and be counted! There is not
"another life" available to us, no matter how much Jae, Marshall, Frans
and the like minded devils desire holy people to believe such nonsense!
Ask God for mercy, and it will be granted! Do not be afraid of the
whore of Babylon's threats! Fear Him who not only can destroy the
body, but the soul as well!
Best Wishes,
BooBoo The Bear
--
Posted via Talkway - http://www.talkway.com
Exchange ideas on practically anything (tm).
Bill
back. She told me I lived in the 1800's as an Indian. Funny thing was she
described a dream I use to have about living in that time. Do you
suppose..... naw, just a concidence.
Bill
- ikabopo - wrote in message
<29131-37A...@newsd-143.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
so you are hopeless. darn. if you kill yourself you are just wimping
out, and you will live another life more hopeless than this one, until
save yourself some trouble.
Ollie The Sandcastle
can see.
Eleonore Beaudoin wrote in message <7nvflr$p...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>...
>
>
>Yo, Seeker,
>
>Hm....
>Those are quite "metaphisical" sort of questions, linked to
>"who am I, what is my purpose in life" etc....
>
>Nothing that one can answer in a day...In fact, I think no
>one so far coudl answer thse in millenaries. They even make
>a science of the flunked answers called philosophy:):).
>
>Well, for one thing, you see to write very well, and if I
>may say, given such a dark subject, still show a sense of
>humour!:) Just the images you make here or there are
>poignant and just....again, donlt readme wrong, but ,
>showing a pelasant side of you. Not the depressed suicidal
>one, the one that "puts you down" in such images and words:)....
>You seem to have writign abilities! I then can hope that you
>maybe woud want to consider that as a quality. I know...The
>subject si not pink (no pun here to old asl-ers (they used
>to segregate me cause I had pink panties (JOKE(!:)):)) , but
>exactly: if one can write so well at such a time, heck,they
>have soemthign better than me.....
>Then that means you have ioen less reasong to suicide than I
>would, and thatv you hagve till the end to obey the order of
>things;-) (kidding, tryiogn to make you smile:)), and then
>have to get in line and take a number: you cna not suicide
>before I woudl: your doing so woudl otherwise be voiding all
>I ever still woudl live for:):), since you ahve more talent
>than I in writign (everyone will agree!) and since then if
>yours is worth death, then mine is not worthy of teh same
>treatment or soemthign liek that?:);-)
>
>So there only is one solution to all tis I am afraid: you
>just can notsuicide before anyone that ahs less ualities
>than you do. And sinceI am not about to suicide, might as well
>not throw away your electric shave kit and empty your bank
>account and all that....
>I am knon t be a slow mover, and could take forever to
>suicide:):), startign with feeling liek it at all....:(
>
>I then am afraid the only news I can give you are
>depressing ones: you have to wait for me to maybe think of
>suicide one day before you coudl yourself, and since I am
>not about to, you thus ar conddemned to live....atleast til
>I die...:)
>Or to give me writign lessons until I would be better than
>you, so that then you could skip me in the ranks...
>;-)
>
>How about a coffee to kill time meanwhile...?;-)
>Sugar?
>Milk?
>Or would you prefer a peach juice?
>
>More seriously......
>I have no words to write to answer such questions....
>I only have feelings to answer them with.......
>........
>
>(((((((((((((((Seeker))))))))))))))))))
>
>Be here tomorrow still? I like your posts, as you maybe got
>to guess......
>Ad you know I mean it and am not saying this so you woudl
>not suicide, cause accoreing to the rasoning above, I'd be
>dead by then, so....
>
>Are you in Florida? Is not mindspring from that area often....?
>
>Chloe
>
>
>
>
> Truthseeker
>(truths...@mindspring.com)
>writes: > Someone please tell me. I'm serious.