Foursquare Church a cult?
OddClock
Gospel, Inc. is considered a cult? My wife is a member, and she has
been involved in many shady financial transactions through this
church. I think she is being exploited, and when I complain to people
in authority at Foursquare, she is pressured to leave me. I have
twice written to the president of the Foursquare corporation about
this, but have received no response. Has anyone else had any
experience with the Foursquare Church? My wife is deeply in debt at
this point. Any information would be appreciated.
-Thank you
four...@my-dejanews.com
detail - the church she is a member of, how you feal she is being exploited,
who is pressurising your wife to leave you? etc.
I have been a Foursquare minister for a long time and have been involved in
assisting people who wish to leave cults. I have never found anything
"cultish" about Foursquare.
Here in England, Foursquare is a member of the "Evangelical Alliance",
nationally and "Chruches Together", Locally. These organisations do not permit
membership of any organisation even remotely considered to be a cult. Churches
Together includes Methodists, Baptists, Anglicans, Salvation Army etc.
Your reference to "shady financial transactions" I find most strange.
Foursquare has the most strict financial reporting requirements and controls
over its individual churches that I know of. Any form of financial
irregularity is immediately investigated.
Perhaps, here again, you can give some more specific detail.
From the broad accusations you make I can only assume that you have a dislike
for your wife's membership of the church and wish to bring discredit to the
church.
Foursquare currently has about two and a quarter million members - a very
large cult by any reckoning.
Rev. Dr. David Gray,
Senior Minister,
Foursquare Gospel Churches in Hinckley & District (England)
In article <3647aae3...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>,
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Catherine Hampton
: I am most surprised at your posting. Perhaps you would like to give some more
: detail - the church she is a member of, how you feal she is being exploited,
: who is pressurising your wife to leave you? etc.
: I have been a Foursquare minister for a long time and have been involved in
: assisting people who wish to leave cults. I have never found anything
: "cultish" about Foursquare.
Rev. Gray -- something a lot of ministers and other clergypeople aren't
aware of is that a cult can occur within a non-cult denomination or
large religious organization. I'm an Orthodox Christian, and there have
been a couple of cultic groups I've encountered which formed within the
extremely traditional and non-cultish church I'm part of. I also know
of some cultic offshoots which formed inside of the Roman Catholic
Church, and inside of other non-cult Protestant churches.
I'm concerned about what this gentleman posted -- it does sound like his
wife is involved with some people who are subjecting her to a cultish
level of control. If he's unfamiliar with Aimee Semple McPherson and
the roots of your church, and had never heard of "FourSquare" before,
he might well wonder about the group as a whole.
That doesn't mean we're going to assume that all FourSquare groups are
cults til proven otherwise. :) Promise.
Now, if the gentleman can post the details of what is going on, perhaps
we can work together to figure it out and help someone in trouble.
Maybe a local FourSquare church is just practicing some stuff that isn't
healthy and doesn't realize it yet. Or maybe there's a bad apple
you and your denominational hierarchy need to be aware of.
--
Catherine Hampton <ar...@ng.reveal.org>, Webmaster
=====================================================================
REVEAL: Research * Examine * Verify * Educate * Assist * Liberate
Former members of the International Churches of Christ (ICC),
Boston Church of Christ"/Boston Movement, &
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OddClock
>I am most surprised at your posting. Perhaps you would like to give some more
>detail - the church she is a member of, how you feal she is being exploited,
>who is pressurising your wife to leave you? etc.
Thank you for your concern. Perhaps you can tell me what I need to
do.
My wife was a member of the Foursquare Church when I married her, and
I didn't think it was going to be a big deal. But only a few months
after we were married, we went together to see her pastor at the time,
Dr. Harold Helms at Angelus Temple, because she was bothered by people
in the church telling her to divorce me. As far as I know he did
nothing. Subsequently, an elder in the Angelus Temple Spanish
congregation involved her in his many financial transactions. When he
involved her in a $5000 credit card transaction under and alias and
involving changes of address I began complaining about these deals.
According to my wife, the elder responded by pressuring her to divorce
me. I complained to the elder's pastor and my wife's current pastor
at the Culver City Foursquare. They made excuses for the elder's
conduct, and Pastor Barber at the Culver City Foursquare actually
defended the use of alias' on credit cards! Further, he also
'counseled' my wife to leave me! I wrote to Dr. Harold Helms, who was
president of Foursquare Inc. at the time, but as far as I know he
again did nothing. My wife was then involved in a car lease
transaction with this man that left her many thousands of dollars in
debt. I wrote the Paul Risser, the current president of Foursquare,
Inc. and copied it to Jim Scott, who is a local district supervisor.
They have not responded. I would be happy to post a copy of this
letter if you would like to see it.
I originally thought the problem was just one bad elder, but the
Foursquare Church's defense of his behavior makes me wonder if it
isn't the whole church that is corrupt. I have looked at some of the
anti-cult web sites, and the Foursquare church seems to have many of
the characteristics of cults I have seen listed. If the International
Church of the Foursquare Gospel is legitimate, how can a Foursquare
pastor defend credit card fraud and try to break up a marriage? And
why won't the highest authorities in the Foursquare church show any
interest? What more do I need to do?
-Thank you again
Anton Hein
Wed, 11 Nov 1998 01:25:31 GMT - wrote:
>I have been a Foursquare minister for a long time and have been involved in
>assisting people who wish to leave cults. I have never found anything
>"cultish" about Foursquare.
>
>Here in England, Foursquare is a member of the "Evangelical Alliance",
>nationally and "Chruches Together", Locally. These organisations do not permit
>membership of any organisation even remotely considered to be a cult. Churches
>Together includes Methodists, Baptists, Anglicans, Salvation Army etc.
The above is helpful information, as is the following:
>Your reference to "shady financial transactions" I find most strange.
>Foursquare has the most strict financial reporting requirements and controls
>over its individual churches that I know of. Any form of financial
>irregularity is immediately investigated.
This is a good next step:
>Perhaps, here again, you can give some more specific detail.
But then you slip up and jump to a conclusion not based on facts (an
assumption):
>From the broad accusations you make I can only assume that you have a dislike
>for your wife's membership of the church and wish to bring discredit to the
>church.
Such an accusation does nothing to help the writer. On the contrary...
>Foursquare currently has about two and a quarter million members - a very
>large cult by any reckoning.
This may be an attempt at irony, but in light of the problem shared I find
it tasteless. Too, an appeal to numbers isn't helpful. The Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints have got Foursquare beat hands down, but
are considered an heretical cult.
Now, since you are familiar with Foursquare procedures - albeit in the UK
- might you not be able to offer constructive intervention or suggestions?
Anton
--
CMR's Apologetics Index: http://www.xs4all.nl/~ahein/apologetics.html
Apologetics and Counter-Cult Resources for Research and Ministry
Shizbu
>From the broad accusations you make I can only assume that you have a dislike
>for your wife's membership of the church and wish to bring discredit to the
>church.
>
I didn't get that sense from his post at all. I got the sense that he's
deeply concerned about his wife. His protectiveness is very normal and
commendable. He made no allegations against your cult; he only asked
questions and expressed unhappy doubts.
>Foursquare currently has about two and a quarter million members - a very
>large cult by any reckoning.
>
How was that membership count made? By whom was it made? Even if it's
accurate, which is highly doubtful, having two million members doesn't
necessarily mean that the term "cult" can't be meaningfully applied to 4-Sq.
4-Sq. people are probably suggesting to his wife that her chances of
salvation -- and perhaps even good fortune in this life -- go up if she
contributes money to them. Many cults, sects, and churches do this sort of
thing, despite the fact that it's horrendously sleazy and exploitative.
Catherine Hampton
: I didn't get that sense from his post at all. I got the sense that he's
: deeply concerned about his wife. His protectiveness is very normal and
: commendable. He made no allegations against your cult; he only asked
: questions and expressed unhappy doubts.
But you did. "Your cult" indicates to me that you've condemned the
group before you even considered that the minister might be reacting
to what he thougth was an implied insult.
I'm not hesitant to call a group a cult when it shows the symptoms,
but it is important not to do so until you've got some evidence.
From the sound of it, you don't have any -- you know nothing about
the FourSquare people. And your response is precisely the kind that
drives away leaders of legitimate churches who have questions for
us -- leaders who might well otherwise be allies.
Think about it.
OddClock
is: whether or not Foursquare Church as a whole is a cult, how do I
get my wife to realize that they are exploiting her? She does not
listen to my reasoning, only to the people at Foursquare, and she
believes she has to do whatever they tell her. If I point out obvious
discrepancies between her beliefs or actions and what the Bible says,
she says that I can’t understand the Bible. If I tell her that she’s
brainwashed, she says that I just don’t like her church. At this
point she knows that the Foursquare elder was using her with the
support of church authorities, but she thinks that it was her fault.
How can I get her to open her eyes to see that she is the victim, and
that Foursquare is still manipulating her? I need her to win back her
self-esteem and sense of right and wrong.
Also, I am very interested in hearing from others from the Foursquare
Church. This situation has been going on for so long and seems so
widespread, that there must be other people they have hurt.
Anton Hein
(OddClock), who - on Fri, 13 Nov 1998 02:56:17 GMT - wrote:
>Thank you all for your responses. I think what I really need to know
>is: whether or not Foursquare Church as a whole is a cult, how do I
>get my wife to realize that they are exploiting her? She does not
>listen to my reasoning, only to the people at Foursquare, and she
>believes she has to do whatever they tell her. If I point out obvious
>discrepancies between her beliefs or actions and what the Bible says,
>she says that I can’t understand the Bible. If I tell her that she’s
Suggestion:
From all I know about the Foursquare Church (I attended one for two years
when I lived in the States), the situation you describe does not at all
sound like official policy, belief or practice of Foursquare Churches.
However, it is not uncommon for leaders on a local level (in any
denomination or movement) to get off-track - even to the point of
committing, condoning and/or permitting bad situations to take place.
Aside from the actions you have already taken (contacting the
denomination's leadership), it might be helpful to contact pastors at
other Foursquare churches in your area. From their reactions you may be
able to determine which one is best able to help you.
Your wife would probably not object to talking with someone from another
Foursquare church. That person may therefore be in a much better position
to show her where her actions and beliefs (and those of her own church) do
not line up with the Bible.
If there is no other Foursquare church nearby, or if you feel
uncomfortable contacting one, you could contact a pastor at another
mainline denomination.
>brainwashed, she says that I just don’t like her church. At this
>point she knows that the Foursquare elder was using her with the
>support of church authorities, but she thinks that it was her fault.
I wouldn't emphasize brainwashing. People can be influenced, manipulated
and deceived without necessarily haven been brainwashed. Generally,
telling someone he or she is brainwashed tends to work against you...
>How can I get her to open her eyes to see that she is the victim, and
>that Foursquare is still manipulating her? I need her to win back her
>self-esteem and sense of right and wrong.
This will take time. One thing you may need to watch out for is that you
don't smother her or make her feel boxed in. Often it's better to come
alongside than to confront.
Read up on issues of spiritual abuse. If she is willing to read something
herself, I suggest Churches That Abuse (Ronald Enroth), and Healing
Spiritual Abuse (Ken Blue). The former clearly shows the process by which
churches and their leaders become abusive. Your wife may recognize some
of the warning signs (and yet not feel "attacked" as the book doesn't deal
with her church). The latter shows why people get caught up in spiritual
abuse, and how to break free from it. Both books should be readily
available at Christian bookstores. Links to the books at Amazon.com, as
well as other resources on spiritual abuse are listed here:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ahein/a00.html#abusivec
Concerned Citizens
religions. This is what has happened with the People of Hope.
http://members.tripod.com/~PeopleofHope/index.htm
Jan Groenveld
There are some good books on the market about churches that spirituall abuse ...
You can get these from a Christian bookstore or order them online from Amazon
Books. Because they are Christian books she may well read them for you. Ask
her to compare her experiences with those in the books and if they are similar
to at least re-consider membership in that particualr church - to find another
where they are not abusive in that way. It is VERY important that she does not
perceive in any way that you are against her beinga Christian or a member of a
church .... it is more important that she knows that you are simply concerned
that the church she is going to is not a good example of Christianity.
There are some articles on my web site also about this subject. See URL in my
signature file below.
Some of these are:
The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse,
Recognising and Escaping Spiritual Manipulation and False
Spiritual
Authority Within the Church, by David Johnson & Jeff VanVonderen.
Minneapolis, MN: Bethany House Publishers, 1991
Toxic Faith,
by Stephen Arterburn & Jack Felton. Nashville, TN: Oliver Nelson,
1991.
(Note: This book is also marketed under the title Faith that
Hurts, Faith that Heals.)
Healing Spiritual Abuse,
by Ken Blue. Downers Grove, IL: IVP, 1993
Churches that Abuse,
by Ronald Enroth. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervon, 1992
Recovering from Churches that Abuse,
by Ronald Enroth. Grand Rapids,MI: Zondervon, 1994
The Performance Illusion,
by Chap Clark. Colorado Springs, CO: Navpress, 1993
Twisted Scriptures,
by Mary Alice Chrnalogar. USA: Lazareth Projects, PO Box 8021;
Chattanooga, TN 37414, 1996
^^THE MOST DANGEROUS LIE IS THAT WHICH MOST CLOSELY RESEMBLES THE TRUTH^^
_--_|\ Cult Awareness Web Page: http://student.uq.edu.au/~py101663
/ OZ x <-- Brisbane, Personal Page: http://www.uq.net.au/~zzjgroen
\_.--._/ (OZ = Australia) Cult Awareness & Information Centre
v
CLewis4981
>Gospel, Inc. is considered a cult?
Itis by me. They believe in a lot of crazy crap, like positive confession,
which is ridiculous.
It was started by Aimee Semple MacPherson, and was the group the Potter's House
cult came from.
MacPherson was buried with a bell in her coffin, connected to the surface, so
she could ring it and people would dig her out when she was resurrected. She
also had a pre-marital affair with some young guy.
The church was built on that kind of carnival theatrics and atmosphere. I think
you are right to be a little worried.
>I think she is being exploited, and when I complain to people
>in authority at Foursquare, she is pressured to leave me.
Thye jsut broke federal law, then. If a church tells a emmebr to elave her
husband, they are causing her to break a contract when she does and they can be
sued. First read about it in a Federal casebook in 1989 or 1990 during the
summer as a Student worker at LANL.
I'd adise you to try and ask her to elave to eb with you, at another church,a
nd point out to her if God wanted her to be there, why is she suffering?
Good Luck,
Chris
CLewis4981
>"cultish" about Foursquare.
Alcoholics never they are either.
>of any organisation even remotely considered to be a cult. Churches
By your own reckoning of course
> Salvation Army etc.
Friend of mine who was hoemless for a while got asked for sex by a minister in
this group. So I'd ahve to say adding them in doesn't bring much validity,
unless it can be established they aren't.
Burden of proof on the asserter, you know.
>Any form of financial
>irregularity is immediately investigated.
>
Show me a financial statement from the big 4, and this would be valid. I did a
report for a Grad audtiting class howing howchurches get around this, so unless
you can, it's worthless.
>have a dislike
>for your wife's membership of the church
He should stay quiet while they advocate divorce for solving problems? Would
Jesus do that?
>Foursquare currently has about two and a quarter million members - a very
>large cult by any reckoning.
>
If numbers jsutify anything, then I guess Chinses communism is even better than
your church, after all, how can 1.25 billion people be wrong?
You seem long on attitude and opinions and short on fact, no wodner you're a
minister
OddClock
on how to proceed.
I actually got a response from Jim Scott, the district supervisor at
Foursquare today. He basically said that much of what I told him
conflicted with the recollections of the other Foursquare pastors
involved, and he could do no more. (As it turn out, what I told him
was based on extensive written notes on all my conversations with
these pastors, not just recollections.) How can Foursquare help but
become a cult, when there is no effective oversight of abuses of
authority? Even people with good initial intentions will be corrupted
by power if there are no enforced standards.
By the way, if anyone sent me an e-mail and received no response,
please e-mail again to my new address. I just changed ISP's and may
have lost some messages.
OddClock
wrote:
Sorry, the new address is bil...@mediaone.net not mediaone.com.
hl...@cleveland.freenet.edu
> been involved in many shady financial transactions through this
> church. I think she is being exploited, and when I complain to people
> in authority at Foursquare, she is pressured to leave me. I have
> twice written to the president of the Foursquare corporation about
> this, but have received no response. Has anyone else had any
> experience with the Foursquare Church? My wife is deeply in debt at
> this point. Any information would be appreciated.
The only Foursquare church I know of is the one that is said to have fed more
people during the great depression than the US government. They are a
small group, and seem to be pretty much mainline Pentecostal.
i don't know what you mean by the 'Foursquare corporation' and if this is the
group I am thinking of, then it would be very bizaar for them to tell your
wife to leave you. Of course, there may be more than one religious
organizaiton with the same name.
OddClock
[trim]
>The only Foursquare church I know of is the one that is said to have fed more
>people during the great depression than the US government. They are a
>small group, and seem to be pretty much mainline Pentecostal.
>
>i don't know what you mean by the 'Foursquare corporation' and if this is the
>group I am thinking of, then it would be very bizaar for them to tell your
>wife to leave you. Of course, there may be more than one religious
>organizaiton with the same name.
[trim]
The only Foursquare Church I am aware of is the International Church
of the Foursquare Gospel, Inc., a California corporation. This is the
church founded by Aimee Semple McPherson. If you are not familiar
with her, here is a brief biography I found on encyclopedia.com:
McPherson, Aimee Semple
1890-1944, U.S. evangelist; b. Ontario. She opened (1923) the Angelus
Temple in Los Angeles and was a founder (1927) of the International
Church of Foursquare Gospel. In 1926 her disappearance and
reappearance, with a bizarre tale of kidnapping, led to a trial for
fraud. Although she was acquitted, her business dealings resulted in
numerous other legal actions. She died from an accidental overdose of
sleeping pills.
I have read that Angelus Temple had a large soup kitchen during the
depression, but unfortunately, the Foursquare Church now seems to be
following the bad examples of their founder.
hl...@cleveland.freenet.edu
> I have read that Angelus Temple had a large soup kitchen during the
> depression, but unfortunately, the Foursquare Church now seems to be
> following the bad examples of their founder.
Be careful not to judge a movement by one extreme element. I have never
actually beento a Foursquare church that I know of, but I have
been to many similar to it. You can even watch one on tv every week if
you get TBN, or hear it on the radio on Christian radio. There is nothing
scandalous about it.
I'm sure someone could find an example of bad things in a Baptist church or
Catholic church if he looked far enough. it isn't fair to take one person's
experience with one tiny part of the organization and call the whole group a
culte because of that.
I have heard a bit about McPherson. There were a lot of scandalous things in
her life, especially when you consider how conservative peopl in these types
of churches are about these types of things. Keep in mind also that this is
being filtered throgh another person, the wife, also.
Link
OddClock
[trim]
>I'm sure someone could find an example of bad things in a Baptist church or
>Catholic church if he looked far enough. it isn't fair to take one person's
>experience with one tiny part of the organization and call the whole group a
>culte because of that.
[trim]
My experience with the Foursquare Church hasn't been with one tiny
part of the organization or through another person. I have personally
talked to or met with four different pastors about serious problems
with the Church including fraud and attempts to break up my marriage.
I have written twice to the president of the Foursquare corporation,
and our areas' district supervisor. These are people in highest
authority in the Foursquare Church and they seem to be trying their
best to ignore these problems.
I have not gone so far as to call the Foursquare Church a cult, but
the abuses my family has suffered have been very numerous and very
serious. People in high authority in the church have known about them
for some time, but have done nothing but make excuses. The
Foursquare Church as a whole definitely has some kind of serious
problem of its own.
csoa...@my-dejanews.com
at least visting the pastor with her. I have attended a foursquare for over
10 years and never heard of what you talking about. The spiritual law of
sowing is in the bible however if my husband was a non believer i shouldnt be
tithing his money or mine if he was not in agreement and that i know
foursquare inforces. Another thing even if i think a pastor or elder is wrong
the first thing i dont do is talk or slander Gods anointed. If you remember
King Saul was not the greatest king, wanting to kill David who Sammual the
Prophet had anointed as king after Saul sinned. David wouldnt take bad or
harm him because he know not to touch Gods anointed. When there are
probelems in the church the first things is to Pray there's where the answers
come from. P.S. No foursquare is not a cult.
OddClock
[trim]
> I have a question for you, first why arent you in church with her or at
>
>at least visting the pastor with her. I have attended a foursquare for over
>10 years and never heard of what you talking about. The spiritual law of
>sowing is in the bible however if my husband was a non believer i shouldnt be
>tithing his money or mine if he was not in agreement and that i know
>foursquare inforces. Another thing even if i think a pastor or elder is wrong
>the first thing i dont do is talk or slander Gods anointed. If you remember
>King Saul was not the greatest king, wanting to kill David who Sammual the
>Prophet had anointed as king after Saul sinned. David wouldnt take bad or
>harm him because he know not to touch Gods anointed. When there are
>probelems in the church the first things is to Pray there's where the answers
>come from. P.S. No foursquare is not a cult.
I have visited my wife's Pastors with her twice, and she described the
Foursquare Elder's behavior in detail, but the they didn't appear to
do anything to help. Also, if there is a rule about not tithing
without the husband's agreement, they don't seem to enforce it in the
Foursquare Churches my wife has attended.
My wife believes that the people in authority at Foursquare should not
be challenged, too, but I don't think this is Biblical. We might
follow Jesus' example, and he constantly pointed out the faults of the
Pharisees, even though they had legitimate authority. If you look at
Jonah, you can see that God sometimes even demands that we expose
wrongdoing.
Thank you for reminding me to continue praying; right now I feel like
I'm in the belly of the whale!
OddClock
about a Elder from Angelus Temple who involved my wife in one apparent
scam after another. Foursquare either ignored me, or defended this
Elder's actions. I also complained to Foursquare because my wife said
one of our girls was using this Elder's illicit behavior to justify
her illegal behavior. They still would not listen. That child is
spending Christmas in jail. My wife admitted to the Probation Officer
that this girl had been overtly taught to lie for the Foursquare
Elder. My wife is still bringing my younger daughter to Foursquare.
I objected, but she said that she was told to bring her. I again
complained, strongly, to the teacher at the Sunday school. She kept
saying that she wanted my daughter in her school, repeatedly reminding
me that she is the Pastor's daughter-in-law. I don't want my children
in Foursquare.
OddClock
the next person's family from abuse. I complained to high authorities
in Foursquare about this and nobody was willing to help my family.
There was no one to stop that Elder from doing anything to my wife and
daughter. Foursquare is not a movement, it is a corporation with a
president and board of directors, and responsibility under man's law
to supervise people it puts in positions of authority. And I am
dealing with Foursquare churches. In fact, Angelus Temple was built
by the Foursquare founder, Aimee Semple McPherson. Most of the
suggestions I have gotten are to sue Foursquare, go to the police, or
go to the press, and I have acted on all of these options. In the
meantime, I need to get my younger daughter out of Foursquare.
MrsRat
Foursquare, go to the police, or go to the press, and
I have acted on all of these options. In the meantime,
I need to get my younger daughter out of Foursquare."
Then take her out. Tell her she can't attend there
anymore. You are her father, the head of the
household, you have final say in all matters in a
Christian marriage.
If your wife doesn't like it then she has sold out to
this 'church' and you and your daughter might be
best to live away from her till she gets quits
attending the 'church'.
MrsRat
Romath (Elementary Dr. Watson!)
wrote:
****STAND YOUR GROUND. You ARE involved with a cult there----
go after them tooth and nail if you have to, but GET YOUR DAUGHTER out
of the clutches of that outfit fast!
Praying for ya, believe me.
Romath
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Romath (Elementary Dr. Watson!)
Romath (Elementary Dr. Watson!)
>Then take her out. Tell her she can't attend there
>anymore.
**Right. Like I said before-- STAND YOUR GROUND.
don't ASK them to release your daughter-- TELL THEM you are TAKING her
out.
If your wife still insists on attending, and still insists on taking
your daughter, then I'm afraid your wife is in for a rought emotional
battle due to the brainwashing she has obviously been subjected to.
They have probably told her that somethng terrible would either happen
to her, her daughter, or both if they 'stray' from that outfit.
you have probably been declared a "subversive' because you recognize
their cult behaviors and have caught on to them.
STRIKE----- go get them out of there.
If you need backup-- take someone or a group of people with you.
Protect yourself at all costs.
>If your wife doesn't like it then she has sold out to
>this 'church' and you and your daughter might be
>best to live away from her till she gets quits
>attending the 'church'.
>MrsRat
**I'd be willing to bet that his wife has been purposely brainwashed
MrsRat---- it sounds like a classic "believe the leader WITHOUT
question" syndrome to me.
His wife and daughter are probably being watched every minute by one
of the spies of the cult to 'be sure they are learning'
accordingly-------------
OddClock
Foursquare Church. She said that a Foursquare Elder moved out of his
apartment to another one, then obtained a credit card under an alias.
He took a $5000 cash advance against it, then he broke his lease and
moved back into his original apartment. This left the credit card
company with a bad name and address. The whole thing took about a
month. My wife helped fill out forms and make phone calls, and the
Elder rewarded her with an expensive gift, which I had her pay back.
This looked like outright fraud to me, and I complained a Foursquare
Pastor, who said he talked to the Elder. He basically confirmed my
wife's story, except to make the dubious claim that the Elder paid the
money back. That was all he would do, so I spoke to another Pastor.
He loudly defended the use of aliases on credit cards. He said that
lots of people do it, and who was I to say it is wrong. I don't think
"lots of people do it" is an excuse for a Christian to do anything,
and my understanding is that the use of an alias to obtain credit is
fraud in itself. What right does a Foursquare Elder have to involve
someone under his authority in transactions like this? Why should my
children be exposed to this kind of behavior by someone they are
supposed to trust? I wrote several letters to higher authorities at
Foursquare, but the only response I received was a brush-off.
Excuse me from not responding sooner, but none of your posts made it
to my news server. I found this DejaNews. You wrote:
>Odd Clock, don't you think you owe it to the Body of Christ to provide a bit
>more substance or details to this unsubstantiated claim?
>
>You state, for instance, that an elder of the church involved your wife in
>one scam after another. Can't you assist us in evaluating just how accurate
>that statement, among others, is?
>
>As it stands, one gathers it is a matter of divided faiths: yours and hers.
>
>Of course if legal action is pending, you have an alibi.
>
>But to make a charge as you have in public, and it nothing more than a
>generality reminds one of Justice Holmes' wise observation: "No generality
>is worth
>a damn, including this one!"
>
>JT
>jtaz...@dotstar.net
OddClock
Foursquare has pressed her to divorce or leave me for almost the seven
years we have been married. I am not going to give my wife to the
Foursquare Church now. Recently, the pressure got so bad that I
couldn't do my job, but I quit rather than leave her. That was a
great job, at a great company I'd been affiliated with since 1981. I
am working again now, but I will give up my career before I give up my
wife.
On Mon, 28 Dec 1998 09:27:24 GMT, MrsRat <bra...@home.com> wrote:
>"Most of the suggestions I have gotten are to sue
>Foursquare, go to the police, or go to the press, and
>I have acted on all of these options. In the meantime,
>I need to get my younger daughter out of Foursquare."
>
>Then take her out. Tell her she can't attend there
>anymore. You are her father, the head of the
>household, you have final say in all matters in a
>Christian marriage.
>
Romath (Elementary Dr. Watson!)
wrote:
>One incident which my wife related to me opened my eyes about the
>Foursquare Church. She said that a Foursquare Elder moved out of his
>apartment to another one, then obtained a credit card under an alias.
>He took a $5000 cash advance against it, then he broke his lease and
>moved back into his original apartment. This left the credit card
>company with a bad name and address. The whole thing took about a
>month. My wife helped fill out forms and make phone calls, and the
>Elder rewarded her with an expensive gift, which I had her pay back.
>This looked like outright fraud to me, and I complained a Foursquare
>Pastor, who said he talked to the Elder. He basically confirmed my
>wife's story, except to make the dubious claim that the Elder paid the
>money back. That was all he would do, so I spoke to another Pastor.
>He loudly defended the use of aliases on credit cards. He said that
>lots of people do it, and who was I to say it is wrong. I don't think
>"lots of people do it" is an excuse for a Christian to do anything,
>and my understanding is that the use of an alias to obtain credit is
>fraud in itself. What right does a Foursquare Elder have to involve
>someone under his authority in transactions like this? Why should my
>children be exposed to this kind of behavior by someone they are
>supposed to trust? I wrote several letters to higher authorities at
>Foursquare, but the only response I received was a brush-off.
^^You are most definitely dealing with a crooked, law-breaking cult.
I pray you get your wife and daughter out of it---- pronto.
romath
MrsRat
brainwashed MrsRat---- it sounds like a classic "believe
the leader WITHOUT question" syndrome to me.
His wife and daughter are probably being watched every
minute by one of the spies of the cult to 'be sure they are
learning' accordingly-------------"
I'm positive of it. I was in a cult for 20+ years and that
is the usual M.O. they use.
MrsRat
Romath (Elementary Dr. Watson!)
**Understood--- I've been doing an exhaustive study on religious cults
for some years now, the ultimate aim being to get it published--- in
hopes of alerting would-be neophytes to the dangers and pitfalls of
joining a cult---- alerting them of signs to watch for--- behaviors
and practices of a variety of cults posing as Christian
organizations-- when indeed they are not..... and hopefully, gently
leading them AWAY from the cults an TO the real God.
Thank God you were able to escape--
OddClock
they were telling her to divorce me at Foursquare, because I am
Catholic. We both went to see her Pastor at Angelus Temple about
this. He spent about a half hour spouting crude anti-Catholic
propaganda. I finally got him to address the issue of why they told
my wife to divorce me. He admitted it was wrong, but added that in
his experience mixed marriages end in divorce anyway! Later, as my
wife became more involved in the Foursquare Elder's financial
dealings, she complained again and again that he was pressuring her to
divorce me. I think it was really because I was interfering with the
shady deals he was conducting with my wife. We both went to her new
Pastor, at the Culver City Foursquare, to complain. She described in
detail how this Elder had pressured her to divorce me. The Pastor
ignored this, but said that I should give my wife more access to our
money. Later, my wife said that her Pastor had told her to leave me!
I called and asked him why, and he asked what kind of husband doesn't
give his wife money. I told him the kind of husband whose wife is
signing her paychecks over to a Foursquare Elder! I wrote letters
high authorities at Foursquare; I think I made a conscientious effort
to resolve this. Every time I complained to people in charge, I
thought they would be shocked by what was happening, but nobody would
help us.
OddClock
have heard of problems with the Foursquare Church before. I can't
believe that my wife is their first victim. Also, do you know
anything about the Worldwide Church of God? I read that they were a
full-blown cult at one time, but claim to have reformed. I am curious
because I found a number of friendly references to Foursquare on the
WCG web site. I wonder if Foursquare has current ties to this group,
which a lot of people still seem to regard as a cult.
On Wed, 30 Dec 1998 21:14:00 GMT, in alt.christnet you wrote:
[trim]
OddClock
just at the moment. Well, the older girl is in jail, but at least she
is safe from the Foursquare Church.
Romath (Elementary Dr. Watson!)
wrote:
>Since you seem to have some expertise on cults, I am wondering if you
>have heard of problems with the Foursquare Church before.
**As for their cultish practices--- yes-- I have-- as for personal
problems with association with them, no-- util yours--- but then, I
have not been too involved in the foursquare study up to now.
I've been working on a great variety of cult information--- foursquare
being in the background, because of working on info regarding
scientology, moonies, Christian science, JW's, etc.
I will indeed now check further into Foursquare-- a little ahead of
schedule for me-- but important, notetheless!!!
> I can't believe that my wife is their first victim.
**She probably is not. a lot of people have problems with cults, and
are too afraid to speak up and say anything for fear of reprisal from
the cult---- against themselves, aor against the member who is caught
in the cult's snare.
> Also, do you know anything about the Worldwide Church of God? I read >that they were a full-blown cult at one time, but claim to have reformed. I >am curious because I found a number of friendly references to Foursquare >on the WCG web site. I wonder if Foursquare has current ties to this group,
>which a lot of people still seem to regard as a cult.
**That I do not know regarding ties, but yes, indeed-- I odo know
about the WCG--- it did indeed start out as a cult--- and also offered
home study courses through a magazine it called "Plain Truth"---- the
'school' offering the courses was called "Ambassador college"
They spoke mainly about end times---- and their beliefs were pretty
bizarre in places-- yet, like many cults do, they had a good way of
making themselves 'sound sincere'----
As for their reforming, yes--- there have been some improvements over
the years--- but still not enough to truly warrant their being removed
from the cult category.
If they are involved in Foursquare--- I seriously wonder about their
reforms...
Best of luck to you and yours-- I hope all works out for you.
Romath
Romath (Elementary Dr. Watson!)
wrote:
>Thank you for your concern about my family. They are in safe places
>just at the moment. Well, the older girl is in jail, but at least she
>is safe from the Foursquare Church.
**you are most welcome. My prayers are with you in this regard, in
hopes that all will turn out well for you and yours, Oddclock...
Romath (Elementary Dr. Watson!)
wrote:
--snipped---
> Later, as my
>wife became more involved in the Foursquare Elder's financial
>dealings, she complained again and again that he was pressuring her to
>divorce me. I think it was really because I was interfering with the
>shady deals he was conducting with my wife.
**Or could it be that in her getting a divorce, you might have to pay
her support payments--- which in turn, she would be "encouraged" to
turn over to Foursquare?
so--=either way, you'd lose----
> We both went to her new
>Pastor, at the Culver City Foursquare, to complain. She described in
>detail how this Elder had pressured her to divorce me. The Pastor
>ignored this, but said that I should give my wife more access to our
>money.
^^^^For the reason I mentioned, I'll be willing to wager......
>Later, my wife said that her Pastor had told her to leave me!
>I called and asked him why, and he asked what kind of husband doesn't
>give his wife money. I told him the kind of husband whose wife is
>signing her paychecks over to a Foursquare Elder! I wrote letters
>high authorities at Foursquare; I think I made a conscientious effort
>to resolve this. Every time I complained to people in charge, I
>thought they would be shocked by what was happening, but nobody would
>help us.
**And I'll bet they never will unless you win a judgement against
them. Let's face it-- the elder in question would not have the
authority to make decisions---- that would be up to their leader......
and if the elder were to go against what the leader said----- that
elder would be risking his own butt-- so no wonder you got nowhere
with him. Cults have a 'certain way" of making things pretty rough on
members who speak up against them--- they don't want other people
knowing what realy goes on, so threats and 'strange punishments' are
commonplace in many of them.
OddClock
Church of God leaders. There are even pictures. See:
http://www.wcg.org/wn/97Apr22/square.htm
http://www.wcg.org/wn/97May20/pray.htm
In addition, Jack Hayford, the well respected pastor of the largest
Foursquare Church in the US, is prominently mentioned. The President
of the WCF even called him "my friend". See:
http://www.wcg.org/uk/wwn/9707Jul/DOWNLOAD.HTM
http://www.wcg.org/WN/97Dec23/all.htm
I have also read about Aimee Semple McPherson, the founder of the
Angelus Temple and the Foursquare Church. She was a charismatic
leader. I read that she was also twice divorced, and was indicted for
faking her own kidnapping to conceal an adulterous affair. That does
not sound like the founder of a mainstream Church. See:
http://www.whidbey.net/~dcloud/fbns/strange2.htm
http://www.usc.edu/isd/archives/la/scandals/aimee.html
OddClock
abusive cult. Foursquare has worked to help the WCG find
respectability. Foursquare Pastor Jack Hayford even helped the WCF
gain membership in the National Association of Evangelicals. Perhaps
your own Church is also a member of this organization. Potter's House
is widely recognized as a cult. That church was started by a
Foursquare Pastor. There are a vocal few who even consider Calvary
Chapel a cult. That church was also started by a Pastor from
Foursquare. The Foursquare Church may be a cult, too; at least it
seems to promote them.
"James Tazelaar" <jtaz...@dotstar.net> wrote:
>Aha, the plot ... thickens.
>
>Odd Clock, Foursquare is a solid, long-established church. If there is
>within its hierarchy a bad egg, he should be identified on the net so
>Angelus members will know.
>
>But to do this right, ya gotta sneak in ... so contact certain posters to
>this NG for advice on how to infiltrate in drag, by voice lessons (tongues),
>false writing (tricky!) and other nefarious means. I think you'll succeed.
>
>Now, however, when you mention the Worldwide Ch. of God, that is a false
>religious cult! See ch. 12 of Dr. Walter Martin's classic, Kingdom of the
>Cults.
>
>They, like the Jehovah Witnesses, are effective proslytiziting among folks
>who're ignorant of the Word of God. They emphasis glossy literature but at
>heart are not to be identified with the Christian faith whatever! Martin
>lumps 'em with Joseph Smith (Mormons), Russell (JWs), and Mary Baker Eddy
>(Christian Science) - that is enough for any knowledgeable soul to run hard
>to escape them!
>
>I haven't the time (and I don't think you're that interested) to digest and
>regurgitate this chapter, but they definitely are a religious cult, and a
>false "Christian" cult at that.
>
>Despite the in-depth studies of Dr. Elementary Watson and the sad history of
>Mrs. Rat with cults, there is no way the Foursquare denomination is tied in
>with Herbert Armstrong's WWC of God!
>
>If you wish to get a feel for the Foursquare denomination, watch Dr. Jack
>Hayford's TBN program, Church on the Way. He's solid Foursquare and a
>prominent man of God. So, why you saw refs to the Foursquare in the WWC of
>God literature is beyond me.
>
>Remember, deceit and all out deception is the mode for false religious
>cults, so like their mentor, Satan, they will lie to him if necessary ... to
>gain a convert.
>
>JT
>jtaz...@dotstar.net
>
>PS: Maybe you should get with Dr. Elementary Watson and Mrs. Rat and the
>three of you, arm in arm, could lay seige to Angelus Temple, as a starter?
>
>But you'd do a lot better by joining 'em, using the various techniques
>(altho not perfected by any means) cited above and used by various posters
>to this NG.
>
>You can even say you've got a linguistics degree, live abroad, are familiar
>with phonemes that others display, make a tape of yourself speaking in a
>strange tongue (a mere 'Lalalala' will suffice in certain circles), and,
>with the exposure you're presently getting you will be invited to be a guest
>speaker at thousands of temples nationwide.
>Anti-cults is big business, especially when the thrust is "them
>Pentecostals." And the good thing about it is you'll be seen as a hero, a
>defender of the faith by all those decent, loving folk in their closed
>temples.
>Go for it, Tick Tock!, before you wind down.
By the way, it's Tock Tick, not Tick Tock. That's what is odd.
vince garcia
Just so you know, the WWCOG has become Hanegraaffianly orthodox in
recent years. They're basically like non-charismatic evangelicals at
this point. I mean, if HANK has adopted them as his own pet project,
that speaks to how conservative and resistant to anything Charismatic or
"holy roller" they must be.
really, you're starting to throw out some pretty baseless accusations at
this point. Stick to the problem you know from your own experience;
don't branch out to offer opinions on people and churches you really
know nothing about. Your own problem has enough validity that these
other issues are just clouding it and making you start to look like
maybe your wife does have something to worry about with you. Keep in
mind I've been on your side about this; but you're getting off track now
with this stuff you're pulling off the internet and going with.
v
OddClock
being abused by the Foursquare Church. What should I say when I am
asked what they should do to see their child? Should I tell them to
spend all of their free time hammering on Foursquare on the Internet
like me? Talking to the Pastor is a waste of effort! You belong to a
great Foursquare Church, but even your Pastor can not help us. What
is the problem at Foursquare? The references on the Internet to
Foursquare Pastor Jack Hayford helping the Worldwide Church of God
seem to end in 1997. What happened? Maybe he made a mistake. Maybe
Foursquare has made a lot of mistakes. Maybe Foursquare is a cult.
By the way, I bet you get to see your wife and family. I get to talk
to mine over the phone. Did get to spend Christmas with your family?
I didn't. And I am better off than other people with family in
Foursquare!
vince garcia
Man, I don't know what to say. The 4 square churches I know are so
opposed to anything like you say you're running into, I can't fathom
these reports. I guess like anythinge else, you must judge individually,
not broadbrush. We can look at some denominations like the Moonies or
old Children of God and see a formalized system of abuse and bondage
that comes from the top leadership on down. The 4 square denomination
does not have anything remotely like that supported by its leadership or
statement of faith (the only part of which I disagree is a prohibition
against alcohol, and my pastor absolved me from that point on
theological grounds). These incidents are unquestuonably aberations from
the official guidlies of operation. Not being fmailiar with the system's
way iof handling complaints I can't do much in the way of helping,
unfortunately, except to urge you to see a lawyer. If a LAWYER makes a
phone call to the corporate offices, I think it will definitely get
their attention
v
OddClock
defense, let me say that the Foursquare Church is not the victim here,
and I think their connection with other Churches is relevant.
Potter's House (aka Victory Chapel, The Door, or Christian Fellowship)
is considered a full blown cult. It was started by a Foursquare
Pastor using Foursquare Churches and resources. Foursquare leaders
knew they had a problem with that Pastor for a long time, but they did
not stop him. If Foursquare can't keep a Pastor from exploiting
entire Churches, how are they going to stop Pastors who abuse
individuals? I wrote the local Foursquare District Supervisor about
my wife's Pastor, but he wouldn't help me. I did not realize that the
District Supervisor has to be approved every four years by the very
Pastors he supervises. In his defense, I suppose if he started doing
his job, he could risk losing it. I did consult a lawyer, but as you
may know, St. Paul strongly criticized Christians for suing other
Christians. (Also, $275 an hour is a lot of money.) Once I have
my family out of Foursquare I hope to work on these options, though.
On Tue, 05 Jan 1999 05:07:21 -0800, vince garcia
<vgga...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
[trim previous quotes]
brisebo...@gmail.com
> Can anyone tell me if the International Church of the Foursquare
> Gospel, Inc. is considered a cult? My wife is a member, and she has
> been involved in many shady financial transactions through this
> church. I think she is being exploited, and when I complain to people
> in authority at Foursquare, she is pressured to leave me. I have
> twice written to the president of the Foursquare corporation about
> this, but have received no response. Has anyone else had any
> experience with the Foursquare Church? My wife is deeply in debt at
> this point. Any information would be appreciated.
>
> -Thank you
I attended A foursquare "church" (corporation) tonight and was impressed with the fact that in a 1 and a half hour "service" Jesus's name was used only 4 times. All of the lessons were old testament. None of the teaching of Christ were discussed. i was under the impression that CHRISTIANS spoke about the life and teachings of Jesus CHRIST, Hence the "christian" in the name of the denominations. I was also taken aback by the "pastor" saying that this is not a perfect church. No one expects perfection from any man made entity but to emphasize the church's imperfection seemed to be the goal. It seemed to be a disclaimer. The country music "hymns" were uninspired and used as filler for what would be a 25 minute service but was in fact 1 and a 1/2 long. The pastor seemed to think that bringing up his marital "difficulties" was appropriate. I was taken aback by the statistic that there are 1900 Foursquare churches in the Philippines and they were looking for tithes, not to help victims but to clean up their churches. He intentionally misspelled the word Dependent with DEPENDant. That we must be dependent to god and without him we are ants.? The oversimplification and the insistence that the congregants continue to attend and "donate" certainly smacks of cult. The whole experience was Indoctrinational with frequent repetition and the hypnotic murmuring but the prayers were made up and never in Christs name.... What happened to Christ in this Christian denomination (corporation). All in all a bad choice. I will look elsewhere for my spiritual fellowship.
jord...@gmail.com
> Thank you all for your responses. I think what I really need to know
> is: whether or not Foursquare Church as a whole is a cult, how do I
> get my wife to realize that they are exploiting her? She does not
> listen to my reasoning, only to the people at Foursquare, and she
> believes she has to do whatever they tell her. If I point out obvious
> discrepancies between her beliefs or actions and what the Bible says,
> she says that I can't understand the Bible. If I tell her that she's
> brainwashed, she says that I just don't like her church. At this
> point she knows that the Foursquare elder was using her with the
> support of church authorities, but she thinks that it was her fault.
> How can I get her to open her eyes to see that she is the victim, and
> that Foursquare is still manipulating her? I need her to win back her
> self-esteem and sense of right and wrong.
>
> Also, I am very interested in hearing from others from the Foursquare
> Church. This situation has been going on for so long and seems so
> widespread, that there must be other people they have hurt.
Either way you have entities outside of your marriage requesting she leave you for their benefit and not hers.
I lost a cousin to this "Church" recently and it is an awful experience. I know there is nothing I can say that will make him see or realize he has been pulled into a something he can not see.
And I put church in quotes because I too question the legitimacy of their status as a religion.
