Promise Creepers Cult

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Melanie

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Oct 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/5/97
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Wayne Aiken wrote:
>
> Mike Doughney (mi...@mtd.com) wrote:
> : I'm very distressed that there are no coherent dissenting voices
> : getting any real exposure in American media, and if anything, the few
> : statements that do appear seem to be completely out of touch with the
> : reality of PK spokesmen's statments and rally images.
>
> There were plenty of dissenting voices protesting outside the rally.
> You'll see very few of them in the media- which in DC replayed *all* of
> McCartney's opening prayer.
>
> --
>
> Holy Temple of Mass $ sl...@ncsu.edu atheist#304 $ "My used underwear
> Consumption! $ http://www4.ncsu.edu/~aiken/ $ is legal tender in
> PO Box 30904 $ Warning: I hoard pennies $ 28 countries!"
> Raleigh, NC 27622 $ BBS: (919) 954-5028 $ --"Bob"

Actually, considering the difference in numbers and that the event
was a PK event, (not a NOW event) that was being protested, I thought
that the coverage of the dissenters was given lots of time, at least in
our local media. The National Public Radio coverage was interesting,
not only covering dissenters, but an interview with a homosexual man who
went to Promise Keepers with his brother, and the response he got from
his liberal friends.

--Melanie

Melanie

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Oct 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/5/97
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Rob Clark wrote:
>
> On 6 Oct 1997 07:30:11 GMT, mi...@mtd.com (Mike Doughney) wrote:
>
> [excellent rant on promise keepers from mike doughney deleted]
>
> you know, it only took one thing to turn me against promise keepers
> permanently. their own publicity still on the front page of USA today has
> the lurching zombies, eyes clenched rigidly shut, obviously in some
> sort of trance.
>
> promise keepers organize in self-criticism cells of five or six, rather
> like mao tse tung's communist party.
>
> promise keepers lie about their political agenda and abuse 501(c)(3)
> tax-exemption with blatant lobbying for legislation.
>
> promise keepers is a crypto-supremacist white male domination group.
>
> promise kkkreepers is just totalitarianism sneaking in the back door,
> as the communists had their fabians.]
>
> >The Promise Keepers event this past weekend may well have been the
> >largest single religious indoctrination session in history. In those
> >six hours, in the hot sun and (for the most part) forgetting to eat
> >lunch, men were broken down completely and then given explicit
> >obedience instructions. They may have been instructions to follow
> >God's word, but those of us who bother to think through such things
> >know that God's word is delivered only by religious leaders.

Not since England in the 1500's, thanks to the printing press. God's
word is in the Bible. Anyone can read it. Also, if you are dedicated,
you can even learn the original language and read it. I certainly don't
put what any religious leader says over the content.


> >I'm very distressed that there are no coherent dissenting voices
> >getting any real exposure in American media, and if anything, the few
> >statements that do appear seem to be completely out of touch with the
> >reality of PK spokesmen's statments and rally images.

I disagree...we have heard Patricia Ireland, et al. ad naseum here.
> >
> >We have NOW leaders saying that PK is bad for women, while PK wives
> >only insist that it's good for them. We see images of topless
> >lesbians, another extreme image that gets airplay but doesn't make
> >people think. And no voices are heard explaining why PK is a movement
> >that will eventually grow to demand submission from everyone who
> >isn't a white-male Christian of their flavor - whether through
> >governmental control or group action.

Oh brother...

> >
> >Fact is, PK is as political as the song sung during the rally's climax
> >- "I Pledge Allegiance to the Lamb." We on the outside all know that
> >this song (see lyrics at http://www.elpasoanvil.org/hanvil9704.htm)
> >has obvious political overtones and is a call to mass action, but like
> >a PK rally, the call to political action is not overt, but implied.
> >And I last heard this song being sung by Operation Rescue blockaders
> >on the steps of a women's health center, so obviously it's a favorite
> >among those who think any action, even illegal action, is just fine to
> >advance their cause.

The song was probably sung by Operation Rescue because it is a religious
song. They also sang Amazing Grace. So, now I guess Joan Baez is a
radical religious right "freak" because Operation Rescue sings Amazing
Grace. Uh huh... Is all your thinking this illogical?

> >
> >PK is not a political movement - it is a cultural movement. It will
> >become political in due course, or as you suggest, other groups will
> >come forward to do the political work. As an analogy, consider PK the
> >act of changing out the hardware, while politics is the software.
> >Current hardware is not capable of running Christian-based theocratic
> >fascism. Should PK pull off the reforming of American culture that
> >they seek - and I think that they, aided by the slow cultural changes
> >of the past two decades, are well along in this process - they may
> >well replace the hardware of American culture with a system that will
> >support a fascist regime.
> >
> >As for the cultic thought-reform methods being used, the coercive
> >non-consensual nature of what actually happens at these rallies may be
> >a weak point at which criticism could be directed. Unfortunately
> >though, I'm finding that these methods are acceptable and woven into
> >the practices of a very large number of churches, and in most forms
> >aren't even noticed by the general public. I'm seeing repetition,
> >fatigue, misdirection and deception - to name just a few examples -
> >used on the streets in front of women's health clinics, to control
> >anti-abortion blockaders, in plain view of everyone, and few object on
> >those grounds or even notice. These actions are seen as political
> >actions, acts of speech or religious expression that should somehow be
> >"protected," rather than the exercise and practice of group control by
> >leaders through coercive means that they actually are, and attempts to
> >direct that control against those that dare disagree by purchasing a
> >legal service.

Actually, I have been to a few of the events you mention. Whether or
not anyone was "sleep" deprived was their own choice, most of the time.
I got to bed plenty early enough. Apparently you equate any sort of
worship of God to be "brain-washing" no matter how voluntary the
decision is. I disagree.
> >
> >I fear that this kind of group action will be extended to other
> >aspects of our culture, and freedoms that people take for granted.
> >I suspect, and the Washington Post survey also suggests, that PK may
> >well be attracting corporate executives and business owners. What
> >would happen if discrimination against gays or women became overt
> >practice at thousands of workplaces, in open defiance of the law?
> >Governmental enforcement would be irrelevant, in the same way that,
> >for instance, abortion becomes increasingly unavailable despite its
> >legality or laws protecting access as the result of group action
> >making the service of abortion too costly to provide.

Well...the abortion access part breaks my heart! NOT. What if men
starting supporting the women they impregate and they don't want to
choose abortion quite so often because they feel supported? Or doesn't
that fit into your view of "choice."
> >
> >We freethinkers and allies face what I think is a grave threat, and I
> >see few solutions.

You are no more freethinking than anyone else. Being anti-God makes you
a slave to your views equally with anyone else. God sure gave me the
capacity to think freely.

> >
> >Secularism doesn't make for pretty pictures for the evening news. If
> >there ever were pretty pictures, perhaps they come from the America of
> >my childhood. Democracy, pluralism, religious diversity, and the idea
> >that people were free and had rights despite what they might think,
> >were values that we shared in the face of the Communist totalitarians.
> >Our shared icons, in the form of the U.S. flag, Declaration of
> >Independence, Bill of Rights, and the monuments to our past leaders in
> >Washington, were visible symbols of those values. And I learned these
> >values in 8 years of Catholic primary school!

Then, obviously, being religious did not take away from those values.

> >
> >Today, what do we have? A movement that insists that those leaders,
> >along with some nebulous group dubbed the "Founding Fathers," were
> >Christians and intended the United States to be a Christian nation -
> >rewriting history to suit their needs, or more accurately, calm their
> >fears by providing a feeling of historical inevitability. Over two
> >hundred years of American secularism is thrown out the window, and the
> >Supreme Court is seen as the enemy, as its actions seldom support the
> >theocratic view. They produce logos that place our flag behind a
> >Christian cross, or replace the flag's stars with a cross, to drive
> >home the new order: "God's law" displaces man's law.
> >

Now you are taking a view of the minority and transposing it onto
everyone at PK. Yes, we were founded on Judeo-Christian principles,
though one can find similar principles in other faiths. It is just as
foolish to suggest that it had no impact on American culture as to say
that all shared the same beliefs amongst the founding fathers.

> >When they come to Washington, it is to establish their church in a
> >place ringed with monuments to people they are painting as Christian
> >saints. It is to take that space, those symbols, for themselves,
> >excluding all others if not targeting them for intensive conversion.
> >During the climactic last hour of the rally, my partner and I - she an
> >unrepentant pagan bisexual - were surrounded by a group on our Mall,
> >led by a pastor, who prayed (preyed) over without our consent. They
> >unsuccessfully attempted to join hands and surround us on all sides so
> >as to not let us leave, but they were unable to complete their circle
> >in the crowd. She openly shared with them her beliefs and lifestyle,
> >all we received in return was to be treated not as people with
> >differing viewpoints but as objects to be converted, by force if
> >necessary - squarely in the middle of the Mall!

I think you are paranoid.
> >
> >I also believe that we're being done in by technological advances,
> >mainly that of cheap global bandwidth. Today we listen to the radio
> >news, and the stories we hear are of fatal traffic accidents on the
> >other side of the planet that can fit in a few seconds; discussion of
> >real issues gets ghettoized on NPR, but only if you're lucky. Three
> >hundred channels are delivered to our living rooms, and in the chaos,
> >to get above the noise, editors are forced to deliver pretty pictures
> >and not talking heads. We end up with pretty pictures of people being
> >emotional for all the wrong reasons in the middle of a large beautiful
> >choreographed TV show interspersed with a few brief seconds of a
> >talking head saying that they don't like it because <insert group
> >here> might be affected eventually. This won't work.
> >
> >Meanwhile, technology favors the religious. They can hold a huge
> >event with attendees a mile away from the stage, but each individual
> >there can see captioned video of every moment on Jumbotron
> >screens. Bill McCartney boasts that they were managed to obtain the
> >Jumbotrons despite the fact that they were supposed to go to a Rolling
> >Stones concert. Why is this important, and why is it likely that the
> >PK organization paid a massive premium for the units? Because the
> >Jumbotron is key to asserting control over each individual in the mass
> >event. People must see the captions to sing along, they must see the
> >emotional outpouring and the demonstrations of cracking under and
> >submitting happening on the stage, if they are to fully participate -
> >loudspeakers are not sufficient to achieve the emotional impact
> >necessary for conversion and indoctrination.

Maybe it is less sinister...not all those people fit in one building and
people like to be able to see. So what is your alternative...ban the
PK, don't let them assemble freely...so much for the Bill of Rights.
Your free to dissent, currently and hold your meetings openly, rent
Jumbotrons, if you so choose.

> >
> >Technology also enables milleu control, so that a person could live
> >their entire life viewing many channels of sanitized Christian media.
> >Just go to the Promise Keepers web site, and you'll see advertised
> >there the "Sky Angel" DBS TV and radio system which is billed as
> >carrying a future all-PK TV channel. The service is packaged in such
> >a way as to exclude secular television channels from their basic
> >service.
> >
That is their choice. What if someone just doesn't like watching
"violent" shows for entertainment. Will you equally condemn them.
People should be able to watch whatever they choose, sanitized or not.

> >Religion as practiced by PK will produce a single minority bloc which
> >will, if unopposed by sophisticated means, become the root of a
> >dominant political force in this country. The left hasn't even
> >figured out what's going on. We have Geraldine Ferraro saying that
> >she "doesn't understand these guys" on CNN, and we have our allegedly
> >Democratic President endorsing the PK's "family values." The left as
> >we know it is toast, so don't expect political maneuvering as we've
> >known it to moderate the PK influence.
> >
> >Wearing atheist jewelry and complaining about a few obscure lumps of
> >rock in a San Francisco park isn't opposition to the encroaching
> >Christian theocracy; whimpering about tax exemptions for churches
> >doesn't cut it either. A massive movement to reaffirm this country's
> >commitment to pluralism and freedom, combined with clear messages with
> >emotional content defining and reintroducing America to its
> >traditional basic values, might make some difference. But I have
> >plenty of reason to be pessimistic.

Values which you were taught in a parochial school.
> >
> >Germany teaches its children not to blindly obey; why haven't we?
> >--
> >------------- Copyright (c) 1997 All Rights Reserved. --------------
> >----- "I am Promise Keeper of Borg. Prepare to be assimilated." -----
> >Mike Doughney ---- mi...@mtd.com ---- http://mtd.com ---- PP-ASEL

Excuse me, but the whole message of Operation Rescue was not to blindly
obey the authorities. Just because you don't agree with the philosophy
behind it doesn't make it blind obedience. Obviously, there is a place
for respect and obedience or we'd have no society at all. You are more
than a little paranoid here.

--Melanie

Mike Doughney

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Oct 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/6/97
to

In article <616e7r$3n5$1...@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM>,
William Barwell <wbar...@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> wrote:
>In article <19971004204...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
>JimDBB <jim...@aol.com> wrote:
>>Does anybody know if the Promise Keepers have received tax-exempt status?
>>
>> As somebody pointed out, this is a frightening cult developing. I
>> received an
>> email from them as a result of my earlier post on her. they, of course,
>> insist that they are not a cult. Does this sound familiar?
>
<snip>
>
>The leaders of Promise Keepers are larded heavily with far right
>ex-military men who believe that the PKs must eventually arm themselves
>for the end of the world and the collapse of civilization.
>
>It is possible, that like Scientology, the PK leaders do not tell new
>members all their beliefs and plans until they are sure that the new
>member can be trusted to accept such things, until they have been well
>imdoctrinated. Most likely, the problem eventually will not be just the
>PK members, but more radical members who wish to go further. We may see
>either radical offshoots like we see from the militias, or more radical
>inner organizations like Scientology's OSA, Scientology's dirty tricks and
>KGB department. Since PK has a much larger number of members than
>militias or cults like Scientology, it is well worth keeping an eye on
>this bunch.

The Promise Keepers event this past weekend may well have been the
largest single religious indoctrination session in history. In those
six hours, in the hot sun and (for the most part) forgetting to eat
lunch, men were broken down completely and then given explicit
obedience instructions. They may have been instructions to follow
God's word, but those of us who bother to think through such things
know that God's word is delivered only by religious leaders.

I'm very distressed that there are no coherent dissenting voices


getting any real exposure in American media, and if anything, the few
statements that do appear seem to be completely out of touch with the
reality of PK spokesmen's statments and rally images.

We have NOW leaders saying that PK is bad for women, while PK wives


only insist that it's good for them. We see images of topless
lesbians, another extreme image that gets airplay but doesn't make
people think. And no voices are heard explaining why PK is a movement
that will eventually grow to demand submission from everyone who
isn't a white-male Christian of their flavor - whether through
governmental control or group action.

Fact is, PK is as political as the song sung during the rally's climax


- "I Pledge Allegiance to the Lamb." We on the outside all know that
this song (see lyrics at http://www.elpasoanvil.org/hanvil9704.htm)
has obvious political overtones and is a call to mass action, but like
a PK rally, the call to political action is not overt, but implied.
And I last heard this song being sung by Operation Rescue blockaders
on the steps of a women's health center, so obviously it's a favorite
among those who think any action, even illegal action, is just fine to
advance their cause.

PK is not a political movement - it is a cultural movement. It will

I fear that this kind of group action will be extended to other


aspects of our culture, and freedoms that people take for granted.
I suspect, and the Washington Post survey also suggests, that PK may
well be attracting corporate executives and business owners. What
would happen if discrimination against gays or women became overt
practice at thousands of workplaces, in open defiance of the law?
Governmental enforcement would be irrelevant, in the same way that,
for instance, abortion becomes increasingly unavailable despite its
legality or laws protecting access as the result of group action
making the service of abortion too costly to provide.

We freethinkers and allies face what I think is a grave threat, and I
see few solutions.

Secularism doesn't make for pretty pictures for the evening news. If


there ever were pretty pictures, perhaps they come from the America of
my childhood. Democracy, pluralism, religious diversity, and the idea
that people were free and had rights despite what they might think,
were values that we shared in the face of the Communist totalitarians.
Our shared icons, in the form of the U.S. flag, Declaration of
Independence, Bill of Rights, and the monuments to our past leaders in
Washington, were visible symbols of those values. And I learned these
values in 8 years of Catholic primary school!

Today, what do we have? A movement that insists that those leaders,


along with some nebulous group dubbed the "Founding Fathers," were
Christians and intended the United States to be a Christian nation -
rewriting history to suit their needs, or more accurately, calm their
fears by providing a feeling of historical inevitability. Over two
hundred years of American secularism is thrown out the window, and the
Supreme Court is seen as the enemy, as its actions seldom support the
theocratic view. They produce logos that place our flag behind a
Christian cross, or replace the flag's stars with a cross, to drive
home the new order: "God's law" displaces man's law.

When they come to Washington, it is to establish their church in a


place ringed with monuments to people they are painting as Christian
saints. It is to take that space, those symbols, for themselves,
excluding all others if not targeting them for intensive conversion.
During the climactic last hour of the rally, my partner and I - she an
unrepentant pagan bisexual - were surrounded by a group on our Mall,
led by a pastor, who prayed (preyed) over without our consent. They
unsuccessfully attempted to join hands and surround us on all sides so
as to not let us leave, but they were unable to complete their circle
in the crowd. She openly shared with them her beliefs and lifestyle,
all we received in return was to be treated not as people with
differing viewpoints but as objects to be converted, by force if
necessary - squarely in the middle of the Mall!

I also believe that we're being done in by technological advances,

Technology also enables milleu control, so that a person could live


their entire life viewing many channels of sanitized Christian media.
Just go to the Promise Keepers web site, and you'll see advertised
there the "Sky Angel" DBS TV and radio system which is billed as
carrying a future all-PK TV channel. The service is packaged in such
a way as to exclude secular television channels from their basic
service.

Religion as practiced by PK will produce a single minority bloc which


will, if unopposed by sophisticated means, become the root of a
dominant political force in this country. The left hasn't even
figured out what's going on. We have Geraldine Ferraro saying that
she "doesn't understand these guys" on CNN, and we have our allegedly
Democratic President endorsing the PK's "family values." The left as
we know it is toast, so don't expect political maneuvering as we've
known it to moderate the PK influence.

Wearing atheist jewelry and complaining about a few obscure lumps of
rock in a San Francisco park isn't opposition to the encroaching
Christian theocracy; whimpering about tax exemptions for churches
doesn't cut it either. A massive movement to reaffirm this country's
commitment to pluralism and freedom, combined with clear messages with
emotional content defining and reintroducing America to its
traditional basic values, might make some difference. But I have
plenty of reason to be pessimistic.

Germany teaches its children not to blindly obey; why haven't we?

Mike Doughney

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Oct 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/6/97
to

Wayne Aiken

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Oct 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/6/97
to

Mike Doughney (mi...@mtd.com) wrote:
: I'm very distressed that there are no coherent dissenting voices

: getting any real exposure in American media, and if anything, the few
: statements that do appear seem to be completely out of touch with the
: reality of PK spokesmen's statments and rally images.

There were plenty of dissenting voices protesting outside the rally.

Rob Clark

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Oct 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/6/97
to

On 6 Oct 1997 07:30:11 GMT, mi...@mtd.com (Mike Doughney) wrote:

[excellent rant on promise keepers from mike doughney deleted]

you know, it only took one thing to turn me against promise keepers
permanently. their own publicity still on the front page of USA today has
the lurching zombies, eyes clenched rigidly shut, obviously in some
sort of trance.

promise keepers organize in self-criticism cells of five or six, rather
like mao tse tung's communist party.

promise keepers lie about their political agenda and abuse 501(c)(3)
tax-exemption with blatant lobbying for legislation.

promise keepers is a crypto-supremacist white male domination group.

promise kkkreepers is just totalitarianism sneaking in the back door,
as the communists had their fabians.]

>The Promise Keepers event this past weekend may well have been the

Brenda Nelson

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Oct 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/6/97
to

On Mon, 6 Oct 1997 us...@msn.com wrote:

:I wanted to reply to you to ask just one question "What are you so afraid
:of"? Is it you are worried that GOD just might move the people of this once
:great Nation so that it might once again stand for true American values,
:strong families, blacks, whites, living together, in haromany. Men providing
:for their wives and children.
:Perry Murtz

Okay, Perry, you want to know what we're afraid of? Try this: Pat
Robertson, a fervent supporter of Promise Keepers and its
crypto-fascist political agenda, says that atheists deserve the death
penalty, perferrably by stoning. Not to mention that he would, if in
power, forbid anyone to hold public office that didn't pass a
fundamentalist litmus test.

And this: George Herbert Walker Bush, then President of the United
States (and golden-haired boy of the Religious Right) opined that he
didn't believe atheists could be proper citizens of the US, nor did he
think all the rights and protections of the Constitution applied to us.

Apart from those two glaringly concrete examples of what the Religious
Right has in store for atheists, agnostics, freethinkers, skeptics (not
to mention Muslims, Buddhists, Traditional Native Americans,
practitioners of Santeria, etc., etc., etc.) we are afraid of living in
a country where superstition rules and rational thought is driven
underground. Like Iran is today, or Europe during the Dark Ages.

We are afraid of the Thought Police, the Soul Police, the Cops for
Christ, the Galilee Gestapo, and all other existing or pre-emergent
groups who would gleefully take away our freedoms and our citizenship
merely because we have a different spiritual orientation than that of
the fundies. If you think they wouldn't do it, then you haven't done
your homework. Scarcely a week goes by without *somebody* from that
camp spelling out how they're gonna make life miserable for the rest of
us once America is "restored to God." <Shudder>

I'd say that was enough to scare anybody. Certianly enough to scare
anybody who believes (or purports to believe) in the principles upon
which this country was *actually* founded - freedom of/from religion,
separation of Church and State, and the right of each of us to live our
lives as we see fit.

Brenda

Number 34 on The A.A. List, and proud of it!
"To sum up: 1. The cosmos is a gigantic fly-wheel making 10,000
revolutions a minute. 2. Man is a sick fly taking a dizzy ride on it. 3.
Religion is the theory that the wheel was designed and set spinning to
give him the ride." H. L. Mencken
************************************************************************
I just *work* for the University of Arizona. (1997 NCAA BASKETBALL
CHAMPIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) My opinions are my own.
************************************************************************

saint andreux

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Oct 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/6/97
to

us...@msn.com wrote:
>
> I wanted to reply to you to ask just one question "What are you so afraid
> of"? Is it you are worried that GOD just might move the people of this once
> great Nation so that it might once again stand for true American values,
> strong families, blacks, whites, living together, in haromany. Men providing
> for their wives and children.
> Perry Murtz

First off, these "true American values" that you speak of
as being "strong families, blacks & whites living together
in harmony", these things can not stand "once again" as
they haven't fully ever stood before.

If it was simply nothing more than a christian group
attempting to strengthen the familial bonds, then I doubt
anyone would raise an eyebrow.

But, look at what it's creating as a side product: a large
body of citizens who have been asked to follow the wishes
of the majority, led by McCartney.

This body has tremendous power: the power to sway elections,
the power of financial support, and the power to limit by
way of the previous two, the freedoms of others.

What is frightening is not that they want to create an
alternative to the world that is pleasing to their moral
code, but that they would be able to destroy things that
they may consider to be contrary to their code.

Example:

If the Promise Keepers are upset that there are subjects
such as sexuality, non-christian religions, or anything
that does not fall within their ideas of how the world
should be on a medium such as television, they could
create an alternate channel or network that conforms with
their ideals, and I doubt if anyone with a decent idea
of freedom would mind. More power to them, in fact!

However, if the Promise Keepers then tried to eliminate
the other channels or networks which allow such subjects,
that is a restriction of freedom. THAT is what is being
feared.

--
$T.&REUX,KSC --><-- O G Y R N E T W O R K www.prairienet.org/~saint
SacraMenstrual Church of the SubGenius Local 451 Outreach Ministry
LOGIC OF SLACK : PURE HATRED IS THE PUREST FORM OF LOVE
"And the strong survive for the love of life..." - s w a n s

Ray Fischer

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Oct 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/6/97
to

<us...@msn.com> wrote:
>I wanted to reply to you to ask just one question "What are you so afraid
>of"? Is it you are worried that GOD just might move the people of this once
>great Nation so that it might once again stand for true American values,
>strong families, blacks, whites, living together, in haromany. Men providing
>for their wives and children.

Gee. That sounds just like the propaganda Hitler used. God, country,
and family. In fact, it's a line used by despots and dictators
throughout history.

Does THAT answer your question?

--
Ray Fischer
r...@netcom.com

saint andreux

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Oct 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/6/97
to

Rev Chuck wrote:
>
> What are _you_ so afraid of should xnity continue to atrophy and die?

Rev. Chuck,

I'm sorry to point out something, but Christianity is far
from being in atrophy a/o a dying phase.

Christianity will still be around years from now. Not many
religions pass the 2000 year mark.

The main reason why it will still be around is that it is
an "open date" apocalyptic religion. There is the promise
of rapture "very soon", but not claiming a given date.
Therefore, until the rapture happens, which may be never,
Christianity will continue to exist.

Raoul D. Xemblinosky III

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Oct 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/6/97
to

Yamudda Wezamibootz wrote:
>
> Mike Doughney <mi...@mtd.com> whined:

> > I'm very distressed that there are no coherent dissenting voices
> > getting any real exposure in American media, and if anything, the few
> > statements that do appear seem to be completely out of touch with the
> > reality of PK spokesmen's statments and rally images.
>
> If the dissenting voices aren't coherent, whose fault is that?

I myself would blame the reactionary plutocrats who control the media,
thereby miscasting any dissenting voices as "extremists." For example,
the sad excuse for a newspaper with which my city is saddled wrote a
glowing endorsement of the Promise Keepers on its op-ed page, and then
put right alongside it a blurb about some "Lesbian Avengers" who took
off their tops to protest their march on Washington. In a part of the
USA where people still write letters to the editor in crayon, this is
tantamount to suggesting that only a topless bulldyke could oppose the
Promise Keepers: a fact that the shitstains who edit our newspaper know
full well. They may have had a sense of ethics back in journalism
school, but they've long since peddled it to Al Neuharth and his bean
counters.


- Raoul D. Xemblinosky III -=-=-=-=-=-=- -- . --- .-- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
a.f.k-m.n "Meow meow Henrietta Pussycat meow meow
alt.flame meow The Presidents of the United States
alt.evil of America meow Kitty?" -- Matt Bruce
- http://super.zippo.com/~shpxurnq -=-=- hfw sux -=-=-=- mhm 15x12 -=

Gregg Hagglund

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Oct 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/6/97
to

>I wanted to reply to you to ask just one question "What are you so afraid
>of"? Is it you are worried that GOD just might move the people of this once
>great Nation so that it might once again stand for true American values,
>strong families, blacks, whites, living together, in haromany. Men providing
>for their wives and children.

>Perry Murtz

The Abomination in the eyes of God of the Promise Keepers is
the silent agenda: Women *in their place* and *the Christian
interpretation* (via McCartney) of what is valid and valuable.

The PK agenda doesn't mention *publicly and openly* the
limitations it would impose on American Society, just that it
wants more *men* to take responsiblilty.
PK is much more dangerous than the Co$ in its final aim
of eliminating nonbiblicly defined freedoms in the US, because
they actually are rapidly gaining the political clout to achieve
this.
A miltant bible-thumping Theocracy in the US would be a
disaster for Americans and others too. They are hardly likely
to limit themselves to just the US. Afterall, they would have
God, as defined by *them* on their side, right?
Theocracies do not foster free thinking, free speech, or
freedom of religion or association.
Look to Iran and remember the witch burnings and the
Dark Times and shudder deeply.

And now please take this thread elsewhere. While interesting
and more than vaguely related it is still off-topic. :)

Best,

Gregg SP4
http://www.cgocable.net/~elrond
--
" I'm sure it's obvious to all who read my stuff, that I have
serious problems when it comes to being able to communicate."
- -RonsAmigo, Official OSA Shill on ARS


$cientology Lawyer Bait: Co$ cures Cancer?:

"Step Four - Cures for Illness You will now find BTs and clusters
being cures for illnesses of the body part. Handle all such BTs and
clusters by blowing them off. 'Cures for Illness' will then cease to read."
--- ררר L.R.Hubbard © ??? ---

Frida

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Oct 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/6/97
to

us...@msn.com wrote:
>
> I wanted to reply to you to ask just one question "What are you so afraid
> of"? Is it you are worried that GOD just might move the people of this once
> great Nation so that it might once again stand for true American values,
> strong families, blacks, whites, living together, in haromany. Men providing
> for their wives and children.
> Perry Murtz
I'm curious what you mean by "once great nation." Do you mean back when
slavery was your national policy or before that when the native peoples
were being annihilated? god will bring you back to this greatness? I
think you are talking about a time when white males completely dominated
over all they surveyed. No?

Paul England

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Oct 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/6/97
to

> Theists control the media? Oh, no! Can it be true?

Come to Wisconsin where the anything (and I mean anything) the Catholic
Church does will be the top story in all newscasts.


Melanie

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Oct 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/6/97
to

Gregg Hagglund wrote:

>
> In article <#LkjqHo0...@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net>, <us...@msn.com> wrote:
>
> >I wanted to reply to you to ask just one question "What are you so afraid
> >of"? Is it you are worried that GOD just might move the people of this once
> >great Nation so that it might once again stand for true American values,
> >strong families, blacks, whites, living together, in haromany. Men providing
> >for their wives and children.
> >Perry Murtz
>
> The Abomination in the eyes of God of the Promise Keepers is
> the silent agenda: Women *in their place* and *the Christian
> interpretation* (via McCartney) of what is valid and valuable.

Women in their place in the eyes of God is as a partner. Read all of
it, not just a narrow portion. I have some other concerns regarding
certain aspects of PK, but I do not fault the teachings I've read on
women and the family.

>
> The PK agenda doesn't mention *publicly and openly* the
> limitations it would impose on American Society, just that it
> wants more *men* to take responsiblilty.
> PK is much more dangerous than the Co$ in its final aim
> of eliminating nonbiblicly defined freedoms in the US, because
> they actually are rapidly gaining the political clout to achieve
> this.

Personally, I think you are attributing the view of a very few
Christians to PK, which is not only unfair, but inaccurate.

> A miltant bible-thumping Theocracy in the US would be a
> disaster for Americans and others too. They are hardly likely
> to limit themselves to just the US. Afterall, they would have
> God, as defined by *them* on their side, right?

I'm not after any theocracy. I'm after individuals controlled by God.
Governments are already subject to him...whether they know it or not.
Read Romans 13.

> Theocracies do not foster free thinking, free speech, or
> freedom of religion or association.
> Look to Iran and remember the witch burnings and the
> Dark Times and shudder deeply.

Most Christians do not hold to Dominion theology and would not support
a Theocracy.

>
> And now please take this thread elsewhere. While interesting
> and more than vaguely related it is still off-topic. :)
>
> Best,
>
> Gregg SP4
> http://www.cgocable.net/~elrond
> --

Where is it showing up off-topic (besides talk.abortion)? I can imagine
the Scn. ng. Is that where you are?

--Melanie

Yomama Sophat

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Oct 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/6/97
to

Wayne Aiken <ai...@unity.ncsu.edu> obsessed:

> There were plenty of dissenting voices protesting outside the rally.
> You'll see very few of them in the media- which in DC replayed *all*
of
> McCartney's opening prayer.

Theists control the media? Oh, no! Can it be true?

Yamudda Wezamibootz

unread,
Oct 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/6/97
to

Mike Doughney <mi...@mtd.com> whined:

> I'm very distressed that there are no coherent dissenting voices
> getting any real exposure in American media, and if anything, the few
> statements that do appear seem to be completely out of touch with the
> reality of PK spokesmen's statments and rally images.

If the dissenting voices aren't coherent, whose fault is that?

Michelle Malkin

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Oct 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/7/97
to

In <rayEHn...@netcom.com> r...@netcom.com (Ray Fischer) writes:
>
><us...@msn.com> wrote:
>>I wanted to reply to you to ask just one question "What are you so afraid
>>of"? Is it you are worried that GOD just might move the people of this once
>>great Nation so that it might once again stand for true American values,
>>strong families, blacks, whites, living together, in haromany. Men providing
>>for their wives and children.
>
>Gee. That sounds just like the propaganda Hitler used. God, country,
>and family. In fact, it's a line used by despots and dictators
>throughout history.
>
>Does THAT answer your question?
>
>--
>Ray Fischer
>r...@netcom.com

And, did you notice the 'men providing for their wives' bit? That's
fine, if it's what the wife wants, but what if she wants to work
outside the home or not be married at all and totally self-supporting?
You can bet these Neo-Nazis won't allow that kind of thinking for a
minute.

Also, once they got into power, you can bet that any members of the
group from other than the white race will suddenly find themselves
without a voice or any power at all in important decisions. Hopefully,
the non-white members of this cult will come to their senses and
recognize this cult for what it is - a pre-Nazi power grab using
religion in the same way the Communists used atheism to gain power and
control over
non-members lives.

Mickey

Therion Ware

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Oct 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/7/97
to

On 7 Oct 1997 03:43:35 GMT, malk...@ix.netcom.com(Michelle Malkin)
wrote:

One might note that this is not speculation, but has been shown to be
the case. Take a look at the role of the Promise Keepers in Nicaragua
during the Rios Montt years (and the Christian Right in general). One
will find widespread torture, and the virtual decimation of the native
indian population amongst other traditional Christian pastimes.

Rgds
Therion
------ ------
Hell is a city much like Dis, and it's Pandemonium for
"why this is Hell, nor am I out of it".
------
Beautiful Rosewood Furniture From Malaysia To Your Door
at less than half the European or US price.
------ <http://www.geocities.com/~tware/rw/home.html>
(under construction)

William Barwell

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Oct 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/7/97
to

In article <343912...@ns.net>, Melanie <wmn...@ns.net> wrote:

>Ceon Ramon wrote:
>>
>> In article <#LkjqHo0...@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net>,
>> <us...@msn.com> wrote:
>> >I wanted to reply to you to ask just one question "What are you so afraid
>> >of"?
>>
>> Three words: THE HANDMAID'S TALE.
>>
>> Margaret Atwood. Read it.
>>
>> --Barbara
>
>While we're discussing fiction...Have you read, This Present Darkness?


I have heard some interesting segments of speeches given at various PK
rallies of the past on Pacifica Radio's Democracy Now program.
Creepy stuff.
Obviously, in a big media oriented rally such as we just had in
Washington, they are going to lay off the more outre and creepy stuff.
I heard a segment of a speech some woman gave at a PK rally. Ugh! Never
have I heard somebody so debase herself! Hand Maiden's Tale
is exactly where this is all heading if all these men newly
recruited into this organization can be indoctrinated by the present
leadership into thinking along the lines of what I have heard from earlier
PK rally speeches.
Hopefully, all these men will no more follow the REAL PK ideas
as expressed by it's leaders, and more than those who went on the million
man march accepted the bizarre ideas of Louis Farakhan.

This is our one hope, and the one bright spot in all of this.
Most of these men were recent recruits and probably won't
accept any of the bizarre ideas percolating in the extreme Xian
movements that many PK leaders are involved with. And the days
of barefoot and pregnant are gone and even the Reconstructionists
can't make the old ways sound reasonable except for a benighted few.

Those who were afraid the milion man march showed that Farakhan
was somehow taking control of Black American men's thinking
were wrong, hopefully this PK march will be another false alarm
for the same reason.

Pope Charles
SubGenius Pope Of Houston
Slack!


Tammy Stewart

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Oct 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/7/97
to

Rev Chuck wrote:

>
> Ray Fischer wrote:
> >
> > > > Gee. That sounds just like the propaganda Hitler used. God, country,
> > and family. In fact, it's a line used by despots and dictators
> > throughout history.
> >
> > Does THAT answer your question?
> >
> > --
> > Ray Fischer
> > r...@netcom.com
>
> "The mother bird stays home at the nest, roosting, keeping the brood warm.
> The father goes forth and brings home food. This is proper. This is how it
> is planned by God." -- Josef Goebbels.

Brrrrrr..that quote gave me the chills. We have a bozo at work who came
to work wearing a PK shirt the other day. Suprisingly, he is
well-educated (in computers anyway) - maybe I'll play a little game of
"attribute the quote" with him. The truly sad part is that (according to
demographic curves I have seen) religious right fundy-types come mostly
from the lower end of the earning ability graph. These are the people
who will inflict the MAXIMUM damage on their families by "taking
control" and telling mom to stay home. I am speaking of families that
are barely keeping a roof overhead and putting food in the childrens'
mouths. Of course, con artists have always been in the business of
preying on the poorest and least educated among us. People with limited
knowledge ask fewer questions and pose less problems in being led around
by the nose.
On a related subject, does anyone here want to hear about my visit to
the Dallas Org's Celeb.Center yesterday??
Tommy
--
"If you take me for a fool, I'm cyanide."
Greg Lake

Tommy_sp...@xs.net

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Oct 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/7/97
to

By the way, I forgot to mention - the PK type referred to above takes
frequent company trips to Ca. - then regales us with tales of the hot
babes he's "popped" ehile there. No wonder he likes his wife at home.

Pat Winstanley

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Oct 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/7/97
to

In article <343810...@erols.com>, Rev Chuck <cd...@erols.com> writes

>What are _you_ so afraid of should xnity continue to atrophy and die?
>
>Ball's in your court...

>
>us...@msn.com wrote:
>>
>> I wanted to reply to you to ask just one question "What are you so afraid
>> of"? Is it you are worried that GOD just might move the people of this once
>> great Nation so that it might once again stand for true American values,
>> strong families, blacks, whites, living together, in haromany. Men providing
>> for their wives and children.
>> Perry Murtz
>>

And I'd like to know what the perceived problem is of women living in
harmony with and providing for their husbands/partners and children...
and leading the way to a life reflecting compassion and aid and
practical care and nurturing for all who need it, whatever their sex,
creed, colour, disability etc...

Nobody NEEDS some mythical 'god' figure crutch for that!

Pat Winstanley
"http://www.pierless.demon.co.uk/index.html"

Diane Richardson

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Oct 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/7/97
to

On Mon, 06 Oct 1997 20:56:37 -0700, Frida <truf...@netcom.ca> wrote:

>us...@msn.com wrote:
>>
>> I wanted to reply to you to ask just one question "What are you so afraid
>> of"? Is it you are worried that GOD just might move the people of this once
>> great Nation so that it might once again stand for true American values,
>> strong families, blacks, whites, living together, in haromany. Men providing
>> for their wives and children.
>> Perry Murtz

>I'm curious what you mean by "once great nation." Do you mean back when
>slavery was your national policy or before that when the native peoples
>were being annihilated? god will bring you back to this greatness? I
>think you are talking about a time when white males completely dominated
>over all they surveyed. No?

No, he's probably talking about back when "this once great nation"
afforded no legal rights to women, who were not allowed to own
property or vote. After all, that *is* the end result of the argument
that the male is the responsible, decision-making head of any
household, isn't it?

If the family, rather than the individual, is considered the basic
unit of society, it leads to the conclusion that there should be only
one official response from each family. As the decision-maker and
individual responsible for the family, the male's opinion would be
accepted as the family unit's opinion -- hence, females would no
longer be permitted to vote or own property of their own.

I've seen nothing to indicate PK maintains that women should not be
afforded the right to vote or own property. That conclusion, however,
is the ultimate outcome of the concepts endorsed by the organization.


Diane Richardson
ref...@bway.net


Gregg Hagglund

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Oct 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/7/97
to

Posted and Mailed

In article <343913...@ns.net>, wmn...@ns.net wrote:

>Gregg Hagglund wrote:
>>
>> In article <#LkjqHo0...@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net>, <us...@msn.com>


wrote:
>>
>> >I wanted to reply to you to ask just one question "What are you so afraid
>> >of"? Is it you are worried that GOD just might move the people of this once
>> >great Nation so that it might once again stand for true American values,
>> >strong families, blacks, whites, living together, in haromany. Men providing
>> >for their wives and children.
>> >Perry Murtz
>>

>> The Abomination in the eyes of God of the Promise Keepers is
>> the silent agenda: Women *in their place* and *the Christian
>> interpretation* (via McCartney) of what is valid and valuable.
>
>Women in their place in the eyes of God is as a partner. Read all of
>it, not just a narrow portion. I have some other concerns regarding
>certain aspects of PK, but I do not fault the teachings I've read on
>women and the family.

No. *You* read all of it. Read what Vineyards preaches and
flee.


>>
>> The PK agenda doesn't mention *publicly and openly* the
>> limitations it would impose on American Society, just that it
>> wants more *men* to take responsiblilty.
>> PK is much more dangerous than the Co$ in its final aim
>> of eliminating nonbiblicly defined freedoms in the US, because
>> they actually are rapidly gaining the political clout to achieve
>> this.
>
>Personally, I think you are attributing the view of a very few
>Christians to PK, which is not only unfair, but inaccurate.

It *is* an accurate description of the controlling Hierarchy of PK.


>
>> A miltant bible-thumping Theocracy in the US would be a
>> disaster for Americans and others too. They are hardly likely
>> to limit themselves to just the US. Afterall, they would have
>> God, as defined by *them* on their side, right?
>
>I'm not after any theocracy. I'm after individuals controlled by God.
>Governments are already subject to him...whether they know it or not.
>Read Romans 13.

You may not be after a Theocracy, but PK leadership appear to be.
God controls no one. God gave us free choice. We are responsible
for ourselves.
And try reading all the books of the ancient Christians
, including those dropped fro political
reasons of mortal *men*. Try it in the original tongues and not
the highly politicised version written to please the vanity of King
James who was paying for it.


>
>> Theocracies do not foster free thinking, free speech, or
>> freedom of religion or association.
>> Look to Iran and remember the witch burnings and the
>> Dark Times and shudder deeply.
>
>Most Christians do not hold to Dominion theology and would not support
>a Theocracy.

This is true. However not true for the OK leadership. Be wary of
the evil of mortal men cloaked as false prophets and performing
evil acts while concealing themselves in the mantle of YohAllahWah.


>
>>
>> And now please take this thread elsewhere. While interesting
>> and more than vaguely related it is still off-topic. :)
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Gregg SP4
>> http://www.cgocable.net/~elrond
>> --
>
>Where is it showing up off-topic (besides talk.abortion)? I can imagine
>the Scn. ng. Is that where you are?

Yes, I am posting from alt.religion.scientology where we expose
the Criminal Activities of the Fascist Cult of Greed and Power.

Scientology secretly teaches that God and Christ and all Religious
Knowledge are evil implants in our immortal selves by the Galactic
Overlord Xenu. Many Christians have been tricked into paying
over $100,000.00 for Scientology Processing before learning this
Blasphemy is at the Black Heart of Scientology as taught by the
anti-christian Hubbard.


Posting Christian doctrine to ARS is a waste of bandwidth
and your time. You would achieve more by warning other
Christians of the false and hidden doctrine of the anti-christ
Hubbards Scientology teachings.

Save a Christian today by telling just one about Hubbards
expensive lies about Xenu and denial of God and Christ.

Tell one Christian today and everyday and enjoin them to do the
same. Within a few weeks every Christian, everywhere would know
the evil that Hubbards each and every teaching and uterrance represents.
Save the souls of others by acting now.
Keep unwary Christians from out of the Clutches of the Anti-Christ!
Preach of the Deceptions of the Drunkard and Bigamist Hubbard!
Warn all of the peril of listening to anything originating from the
blasphemous 'Church' of Scientology and its many secret mouthpieces!

Best,
>
>--Melanie

Paul

unread,
Oct 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/7/97
to

Pat Winstanley wrote:
> And I'd like to know what the perceived problem is of women living in
> harmony with and providing for their husbands/partners and children...
> and leading the way to a life reflecting compassion and aid and
> practical care and nurturing for all who need it, whatever their sex,
> creed, colour, disability etc...

If that's what they freely *choose* to do, then there's no harm that I
can see. If that's what they do because they have no real alternatives
or because they're forced to do it, then I think we can agree that there
is a major problem.

-Paul

Randy Day

unread,
Oct 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/7/97
to None Of The Above

None Of The Above wrote:
>
> On 6 Oct 1997 20:40:45 GMT, d009...@dc.seflin.org (Sam Lopez) wrote:
>
> >Yep...they come from all walks of life...your doctor, your mechanic, your
> >pilot, your physics professor, your highschool coach...all seriously
> >demented......

<<note that there should be the word 'NOT!' at the end of Spammy's quote>>

Geo, I'm majorly disappointed in you. From XTIANS I expect this kind of
tactic ... not you. Misquoting in an attempt to embarrass? This is not
good.

Much as I hate to give Spammy Slow-Pez the benefit of ANYTHING, I think
you owe him an apology.

>
> Just remember folks. You heard it from Spammy.
>
> Thanks for clearing this up for us.
>
> Geo
> atheist #15


R

Remove any occurrence of the letter 'x' in my address
to send me email.

"Then I will deal with your argumentation. As long as
you just SAY things without giving *PROVE* for them
they are worth NOTHING."
- Bernhard Faber, xtian, on alt.atheism. Ah, irony!

Sam Lopez

unread,
Oct 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/7/97
to

Ray Fischer (r...@netcom.com) wrote:

: <us...@msn.com> wrote:
: >I wanted to reply to you to ask just one question "What are you so afraid
: >of"? Is it you are worried that GOD just might move the people of this once
: >great Nation so that it might once again stand for true American values,
: >strong families, blacks, whites, living together, in haromany. Men providing
: >for their wives and children.

: Gee. That sounds just like the propaganda Hitler used. God, country,


: and family. In fact, it's a line used by despots and dictators
: throughout history.

Gee...even the atheist dictators no? <grin>
--
+**************************************************+
+ "I met a Pentium chip +
+ that did not believe +
+ in the existence of Intel (TM)." +
+ +
+**************************************************+


Michael Dresbach

unread,
Oct 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/7/97
to

Therion Ware (Therion Ware) wrote:
> One might note that this is not speculation, but has been shown to be
> the case. Take a look at the role of the Promise Keepers in Nicaragua
> during the Rios Montt years (and the Christian Right in general). One
> will find widespread torture, and the virtual decimation of the native
> indian population amongst other traditional Christian pastimes.

I'm as worried about the Promise Keepers and the Religious Right as
anyone else, but I think that it is important to keep our facts
straight. Rios Montt was in Guatemala, not Nicaragua.

Michael Dresbach

Winston A. Collier

unread,
Oct 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/7/97
to

In article <343a3d35...@snews.zippo.com>, ref...@bway.net says...
[snip]

> If the family, rather than the individual, is considered the basic
> unit of society, it leads to the conclusion that there should be only
> one official response from each family. As the decision-maker and
> individual responsible for the family, the male's opinion would be
> accepted as the family unit's opinion -- hence, females would no
> longer be permitted to vote or own property of their own.
>
> I've seen nothing to indicate PK maintains that women should not be
> afforded the right to vote or own property. That conclusion, however,
> is the ultimate outcome of the concepts endorsed by the organization.
>
>
> Diane Richardson
> ref...@bway.net
>
>

How does it "follow" that there should only be one response - explain the
linkage to me, because I don't see where thats a necessary and sufficient
conclusion given the premise. "Probable" - I could agree to, but I think
you may be jumping to conclusions a bit hastily.

Also, from what I saw on CNN, the PKs (at least publicly) have softened
their "Man Is Boss" paul-isms to where they say the mans job includes
supporting and upholding his wife as an equal partner. Not the same
subservience we heard over the past few years (This was based on a quote
from a soundbite that was clipped from an apparent sermon). The PKs as a
group are so big and amorphous right now that they are very susceptible
to the moderating influence of "old fashioned America Values" like
individualism, equal rights and personal freedom (Pursuit of happiness) -
- the ones the PKs seem to most often overlook. Its what you ignore or
fail to understand that will get you - ask Scientology about their
initial ignorance and continual misunderstanding of the Internet :-)

Aside from all that, IMHO the PK issue is pretty much moot. Its a
tempest in a teapot and will likely fade away within a few years to a
small core of dedicated adherents. Most American evangelical movements
end up that way. Think of it - what happened to all the charismatic
evangelicals from the 1920-30's? Where is the Scourge of the 70's and
80's Jerry Falwell? Not exactly a political powerhouse anymore is he? I
have faith in the American character - that we Americans retain a
fundamental capacity for being easily distracted and hard to lead. Sort
of like lining up cats - the more you get in line the less likely it is
the line will stay put or follow. But thats just my opinion - I could be
wrong

Regards,

A.C.

Beth Wise

unread,
Oct 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/7/97
to

On 07-Oct-97 19:27:44, Patrick J. Chicas said in alt.atheism:
> Brenda Nelson (bre...@U.Arizona.EDU) wrote:

>: On Mon, 6 Oct 1997 us...@msn.com wrote:
>:
>: :I wanted to reply to you to ask just one question "What are you so afraid
>: :of"? Is it you are worried that GOD just might move the people of this
>: :once great Nation so that it might once again stand for true American
>: :values, strong families, blacks, whites, living together, in haromany. Men
>: :providing for their wives and children. Perry Murtz

>:
>: Okay, Perry, you want to know what we're afraid of? Try this: Pat
>: Robertson, a fervent supporter of Promise Keepers and its
>: crypto-fascist political agenda, says that atheists deserve the death
>: penalty, perferrably by stoning. Not to mention that he would, if in
>: power, forbid anyone to hold public office that didn't pass a
>: fundamentalist litmus test.

> I agree, not good..

> Let's look at the other hand though.. Al Gore is a fervorent
> environmentalist, right?

> Here's a tidy quote from a Sierra Club leader..

> "Phasing out the human race will solve every problem on earth, social and
> environmental."

> Dave Forman, founder of Earth First, and presently a member of the Board
> of Directors for the Sierra Club

> Do you support the Sierra Club?

Personally, I dunno if I support them since I don't know much about them,
but what was wrong with that quote? Got a problem with the truth?

--
A recent search on DejaNews has confirmed that I'm missing more posts than
I'm seeing, especially in alt.atheism. Please CC replies to the address below.
--
Beth Wise | Have you ever wondered why
aka Ink on #Amiga, Undernet | the older you get, the more
inky(at)csrlink(dot)net | life sucks? Everything is
http://www.toptown.com/ | revealed in Ink's Shit Happens
centralpark/ink | Theory at the URL to your left.
Amiga 4000/040/25MHz/18MB | <--


Winston A. Collier

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Oct 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/7/97
to

In article <61cjop$nkj$1...@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM>,
wbar...@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM says...
[snip]

>
> Those who were afraid the milion man march showed that Farakhan
> was somehow taking control of Black American men's thinking
> were wrong, hopefully this PK march will be another false alarm
> for the same reason.
>
> Pope Charles
> SubGenius Pope Of Houston
> Slack!

This is the clearest (no pun intended) most succinct statment I have seen
yet on the PK that I can agree with. Hmmm - maybe there *is* something
to this Slack and BOB stuff for getting a better mind (or at least a
better grip on slack :-) ...

A.C.

Winston A. Collier

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Oct 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/7/97
to

In article <343a3d35...@snews.zippo.com>, ref...@bway.net says...
[snip]
> If the family, rather than the individual, is considered the basic
> unit of society, it leads to the conclusion that there should be only
> one official response from each family. As the decision-maker and
> individual responsible for the family, the male's opinion would be
> accepted as the family unit's opinion -- hence, females would no
> longer be permitted to vote or own property of their own.
>
> I've seen nothing to indicate PK maintains that women should not be
> afforded the right to vote or own property. That conclusion, however,
> is the ultimate outcome of the concepts endorsed by the organization.
>
>
> Diane Richardson
> ref...@bway.net
>
>

How does it "follow" that there should only be one response - explain the

linkage to me, because I dont see where thats a neccesary and sufficient

conclusion given the premise. "Probable" - I could agree to, but I think
you may be jumping to conclusions a bit hastily.

Also, from what I saw on CNN, the PKs (at leat publicly) have softend

their Man Is Boss paul-isms to where they say the mans job includes
supporting and upholding his wife as an equal partner. Not the same

subservience we heard over the past few years (This was a quote from a
soundbite that was clipped from an apparent sermon). The group is so big
and amorphous right now that it is very susceptible to the moderating

influence of "old fashioned America Values" like individualism, equal

rights and personal freedom (Pursuit of happiness) -- the ones the PKs

seem to most often overlook. Its what you ignore or fail to understand
that will get you - ask Scientology about their initial ignorance and
continual misunderstanding of the Internet :-)

Aside from all that, IMHO the PK issue is pretty much moot. Its a
tempest in a teapot and will likely fade away within a few years to a
small core of dedicated adherents. Most American evangelical movements

end up that way. Think of it - what happened to Billy Sunday from the

Rev Chuck

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Oct 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/7/97
to

I've spent a third of my life trying to get a handle on "Slack", and
only this much can I say for certain . Those who _wear_ "slacks" are
the ones who least have it.

Rev Chuck

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Oct 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/7/97
to
> --The Sierra Club has, of late, been under an incredible assault by industries
who depend on destruction of the ecology for a dollar. The paper industry --
read the PULP industry, the folks who fell trees so you can choose from a
dozen brands to wipe on (ain't America GREAT???) -- in particular has waged
war on the green movement. Recall the famed spotted owl wars of the Pacific
Northwest. Recall also that management fuckups cause more layoffs than
environmental regulations ever will; of all timber industry layoffs since
the 1980's, only 1% can be attributed to regulation. So, corporate management
diverts attention from themselves with populist disinformation campaigns.

I know a little more truth about Foreman than the post let on. What he said
was (and I agree) that if the human population was reduced from its current
6 billion to _maybe_ 600 million at worst, environmental impact would be
negligable or none at all. He never said the human race should be completely
phased out (and neither do I).

None Of The Above

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Oct 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/7/97
to

On 6 Oct 1997 20:40:45 GMT, d009...@dc.seflin.org (Sam Lopez) wrote:

>Yep...they come from all walks of life...your doctor, your mechanic, your
>pilot, your physics professor, your highschool coach...all seriously
>demented......

Just remember folks. You heard it from Spammy.

Patrick J. Chicas

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Oct 8, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/8/97
to

Rob Clark (xe...@mindspring.com) wrote:
: On 6 Oct 1997 07:30:11 GMT, mi...@mtd.com (Mike Doughney) wrote:
:
: [excellent rant on promise keepers from mike doughney deleted]
:
: you know, it only took one thing to turn me against promise keepers
: permanently. their own publicity still on the front page of USA today has
: the lurching zombies, eyes clenched rigidly shut, obviously in some
: sort of trance.

I guess the same fervor at an Earth First gathering is okay?

: promise keepers lie about their political agenda and abuse 501(c)(3)
: tax-exemption with blatant lobbying for legislation.

You mean like the Sierra Club?

: promise keepers is a crypto-supremacist white male domination group.

What a laugh! Per third source statistics, the gathering had a 14% mix of
Aferican Americans. The whole US populace has a 13% African American
representation. Do the math..

PJC

Patrick J. Chicas

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Oct 8, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/8/97
to

Brenda Nelson (bre...@U.Arizona.EDU) wrote:
: On Mon, 6 Oct 1997 us...@msn.com wrote:
:
: :I wanted to reply to you to ask just one question "What are you so afraid
: :of"? Is it you are worried that GOD just might move the people of this once
: :great Nation so that it might once again stand for true American values,
: :strong families, blacks, whites, living together, in haromany. Men providing
: :for their wives and children.
: :Perry Murtz
:
: Okay, Perry, you want to know what we're afraid of? Try this: Pat
: Robertson, a fervent supporter of Promise Keepers and its
: crypto-fascist political agenda, says that atheists deserve the death
: penalty, perferrably by stoning. Not to mention that he would, if in
: power, forbid anyone to hold public office that didn't pass a
: fundamentalist litmus test.

I agree, not good..

Let's look at the other hand though.. Al Gore is a fervorent
environmentalist, right?

Here's a tidy quote from a Sierra Club leader..

"Phasing out the human race will solve every problem on earth, social and
environmental."

Dave Forman, founder of Earth First, and presently a member of the Board
of Directors for the Sierra Club

Do you support the Sierra Club?

Hey how about this comment by the sitting, Sec of Interior..

"You can't read the Constitution like a rule book"
-Bruce Babbitt quoted by the Arizona Republic, July 8, 1987


: Apart from those two glaringly concrete examples of what the Religious
: Right has in store for atheists, agnostics, freethinkers, skeptics (not
: to mention Muslims, Buddhists, Traditional Native Americans,
: practitioners of Santeria, etc., etc., etc.) we are afraid of living in
: a country where superstition rules and rational thought is driven
: underground. Like Iran is today, or Europe during the Dark Ages.

Superstitions, or the creation there of?

Hey I have one for you..

"[W]e have to offer up scary scenarios, make simplified, dramatic
statements, and make little mention of any doubts we may have. Each of us
has to decide what the right balance is between being effective and being
honest."

-Stephen Schneider, proponent of the theory that CFCs are depleting the
ozone

: We are afraid of the Thought Police, the Soul Police, the Cops for
: Christ, the Galilee Gestapo, and all other existing or pre-emergent
: groups who would gleefully take away our freedoms and our citizenship
: merely because we have a different spiritual orientation than that of
: the fundies. If you think they wouldn't do it, then you haven't done
: your homework. Scarcely a week goes by without *somebody* from that
: camp spelling out how they're gonna make life miserable for the rest of
: us once America is "restored to God." <Shudder>

Hah!

* Deep Ecology as a Religion

"If we seek only personal redemption we could become solitary ecological
saints among the masses of those we might classify as 'sinners' who
continue to pollute."

Bill Devall & George Sessions, Deep Ecology: Living As If Nature Mattered
Layton, UT: Gibbs Smith, 1987), p 14

"More science and more technology are not goint to get us out of the
present ecological crises untill we find a new religion, or rethink our
old one."

Lynn White, Jr. "The Historical Roots of Our Ecological Crisis," Science,
(Mar. 10 1967), p 1206


: I'd say that was enough to scare anybody. Certianly enough to scare
: anybody who believes (or purports to believe) in the principles upon
: which this country was *actually* founded - freedom of/from religion,
: separation of Church and State, and the right of each of us to live our
: lives as we see fit.

Trouble is, you could care less if your life as you see fit, affects
anyone else.

PJC

Patrick J. Chicas

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Oct 8, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/8/97
to

Rev Chuck (cd...@erols.com) wrote:
:
: "The mother bird stays home at the nest, roosting, keeping the brood warm.
: The father goes forth and brings home food. This is proper. This is how it
: is planned by God." -- Josef Goebbels.

Since you have brought the all too common USENET<>NAZI comparison into
view, we should also mention the following.

In the 1930s the ecologists "Green Revolution" reached full flower in
Germany...In the political sphere, ecologists lobbied successfully, for
antivivisection laws,..implementation of organic farming,..and the
redistribution of large land holdings to the German peasants (Back-to-
the-Land movement)...These laws became the policies of a political party
that incorporated a major portion of the ecologists political agenda. This
party also believed in the "Blood and Soil" ethic, and was known as the
National Socialist Party. Its leader was Adolf Hitler.


Oophs.. All those nice "Green Ideals" are admired and often demanded by
liberals.

Dan

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Oct 8, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/8/97
to

On 8 Oct 1997 00:19:49 GMT, suns...@antispam.pinn.net (Sunshine)
wrote:


>
>The Christian Reconstructionists function as a fundamentalist Christian
>think-tank. Over the last, oh, 20 years, ideas have percolated out of
>the Chalcedon Foundation (primary center of CR thinking) to the
>fundamentalist Christian world at large. The ideas percolating out of
>Chalcedon today will probably become standard fair in fundamentalist
>Christian thinking in 10 years. For a truly frightening experience,
>visit their website. Among other things, the want to replace the
>Constitution with the Bible and democracy with theocracy and to
>reinstitute patriarchal families and slavery. Since the Bible will
>become the law of the land, in their world, abortion, adultery,
>blasphemy, being an "incorregible child", and homosexuality will become
>capital crimes.
>
>Sunshine
>
Oh my gawd it must be true.....

Sheesh
Spam bait:
postm...@agis.net
postm...@uu.net
webm...@agis.net
in...@sonicnet.com
jo...@sonicnet.com
webm...@sonicnet.com


None Of The Above

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Oct 8, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/8/97
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On Tue, 07 Oct 1997 14:58:34 -0700, Randy Day
<rand...@city.saskatoon.sk.cax> wrote:

>None Of The Above wrote:
>>
>> On 6 Oct 1997 20:40:45 GMT, d009...@dc.seflin.org (Sam Lopez) wrote:
>>
>> >Yep...they come from all walks of life...your doctor, your mechanic, your
>> >pilot, your physics professor, your highschool coach...all seriously
>> >demented......
>

><<note that there should be the word 'NOT!' at the end of Spammy's quote>>

Your point?

>Geo, I'm majorly disappointed in you.

And your point?

>From XTIANS I expect this kind of tactic ... not you.
>Misquoting in an attempt to embarrass?

From Xtians?

Whether I misquoted Spammy or not isn't the issue. The issue is
whether Spammy will EVER produce an argument that doesn't rely on
bullshit circular reasoning.

The fact that you are disappointed just means that I can't please
everyone.

>This is not good.

Neither am I in some circumstances.

>Much as I hate to give Spammy Slow-Pez the benefit of ANYTHING, I think
>you owe him an apology.

Right. Let me guess. If I had called him a sawed-off prick, you
would have been *less* disappointed?


Geo
atheist #15

Therion Ware

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Oct 8, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/8/97
to

Opps.... absolutely Rios Montt & the shepherds (which is to say
"right").


Rob Clark

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Oct 8, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/8/97
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jbwebb <jbw...@gramercy.ios.com> wrote:

>I listened to Rush for about 10 minutes on Monday while in the car (note

i forgive you, i occasionally have to put up with rush myself.

>how apologetic I seem to be!) - he kept saying how the numbers didn't
>really matter, that if there wasn't a million there or not didn't really
>matter, blah blah blah. Remember how he ridiculed the Million Man March
>because the numbers weren't as large as they claimed? On and on about

yes, i have to tolerate that dumb cocksucker often enough to remember
that. i have also listened to his dumb shit enough to realize that he
will bully a twelve-year-old calling in to his show, and yet still
lose the debate, while in a cowardly fashion refusing to debate any
real challenger in public.

because he is a little coward.

(i note g. gordon liddy follows rush chronologically in my local
schedule, and is far superior, and will debate any goddamn person on
any goddamn thing. his politics are on the same vile level as rush,
but at least liddy has some damn integrity and balls that outweigh
rush's entire putrid frame.)

>the fucking numbers on that one! Yet, here - he gives PK a pass. What a
>hypocrite (surprised?). Remember how he ridiculed MMM's message - which
>was basically the same (respect your wife, family, community)? What's
>the difference here, huh?????

the difference is that farrakhan's loons were black, whereas
mccartney's loons are white.

nevermind, you were pointing that out yourself, with a bit of irony.

irony is a tricky task, though, some people miss it around these
parts. it's best to label it. as in **********IRONY
ALERT************

RED ALERT! (flash it like the heaven's gate site)

IRONY!!!!!!!!! THERE WILL BE !!!!!!!!!!IRONY!!!!!!!!!!! IN ABOUT A
HUNDRED YARDS! REALLY! DON'T TAKE THIS *****SERIOUSLY*****
OR ANYTHING!!!!

QUICK, IRONY IN FIFTY YARDS!

IRONY, UPCOMING IRONY!

but, you know, it's not really worth all that build-up. because even
if you go ahead and do that, some people will still miss it.

> You know, my husband made a promise to me before our rabbi, families,
>and friends. That was enough for me. Maybe I should have called ABC and
>had our vows televised nation wide for them to be valid.

nah.

>Take care
>Joni

rob

Remove xx

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Oct 8, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/8/97