Get out your crystal balls
JOHN HANLEY
topic; they have said what they have to say, most everyone in the ng has
said what they have to say, and then some....yes?
John [H]
------------------------------------------------
>Victoria Dunlop wrote:
> I think we could do Kevin and Janie a favour by
> predicting their future.
chi...@usa.net
Adulterers are caught up in their own world. No matter what would be
written here with all the clarity and wisdom of hindsight from those who
have been there (in all three places, his, hers and the spouse), all the
lessons learned... it would not sink in. If any adulterer (not just the
two most visible ones right now) would by chance read the replys, I'm
sure that their thoughts would be along the lines of "But we're
different, our situation is different, "this one" will turn out
different. It rarely does.
Adulterers have to learn the lessons the hard way and always at the
expense of other people, some never do learn the lessons.
Heidi
Bill Borsodi
My crystal ball is kind of foggy this morn ... maybe I'm kinda tired of
this thread. So, I'll stick with the facts.
Increase your vocabulary day:
definitions:
Sordid: 1) a) dirty; filthy b) squalid; depressingly wretched
2) a) base; ignoble; mean
b) mercenary, avaricious, grasping, or meanly SELFISH.
Affair: ... 5) an event that becomes a matter of public controversy
6) an amorous relationship between two people not married
to each other; an amour
Amour: a love affair, esp. of an illicit or secret nature.
A sordid affair: 2 + 2 does not equal 1,379 folks ..
no matter how u juggle the numbers.
I do not negate the humans behind this subject. As, I'm sure, few
here on ASD do. I'm sure these people have many fine qualities. We are
specifically approaching a subject with words of truth and personal
experience. They may seem a personal attack, harsh and unsympathetic --
but, I have seen few responses that actually were. The truth can hurt. I
believe most only wanted them to see this so clearly that they will never,
ever consider this even a remote possibility in their life again.
have a good day folks
BillBo
On 1 Nov 1998 14:32:25 GMT, "Victoria Dunlop" <vdu...@online.no> wrote:
>Much as Janie would like her relationship with Kevin "to be different" this
>sordid little saga is standard affair fare. All that intoxicating passion
>distorts reality.
>
>It's futile labouring the point that Kevin's wife is suffering blindly and
>undeservedly. Kevin and Janie are not interested in this. They've "taken"
>what they wanted from the discussion and the fallout is nothing more than
>an entertaining diversion for them. It might be interesting to speculate
>upon what lies ahead, though. Fast-forward a month, 6 months, 2 years, 10
>years. Given what Janie and Kevin have revealed of themselves, what do you
>imagine their future to be?
>
>Whatever Kevin's intentions, I can't imagine Janie letting go easily. She
>admitted that she is accustomed to winning and she certainly didn't move
>all the way from Texas to Albany to surrender Kevin to his wife. I can't
>imagine this ending without all hell breaking lose. Perhaps Kevin can
>continue all the furtive skulking and lying for awhile but eventually
>circumstances (if not his conscience) will force him to climb down off the
>fence and make a decision. If (when?) his wife finds out she might just
>push him. This, no doubt, would please Janie.
>
>Imagine that Janie wins her prize, the great Kevin. What next? What
>happens when the fantasy evaporates and reality comes crashing in? What
>will happen when Kevin loses half his "things", not to mention the respect
>of family and colleagues. What will happen when the infatuation chemicals
>wear off, the passion dwindles and real life - the mundane world of work
>and domesticity (not to mention ex-wives and step-children) - takes over?
>Will their arguments become more intense and embittered? Will one or both
>seek renewed excitement outside the relationship, perpetuating the cycle?
>
>All those who've witnessed the pain of infidelty and the horror of divorce
>have the wisdom of hindsight. Many of you have seen your ex repeat their
>mistakes in subsequent marriages. There are patterns, not just in
>adultery, but in its wake. I think we could do Kevin and Janie a favour by
>predicting their future. Perhaps it will force them to think beyond their
>immediate situation, if not beyond themselves. Perhaps not. I think it's
>worth a try, though.
>
>Victoria.
>
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( \`. ) //\` '/\\ ( .'/ )
\_`-'`---'\\__, bil...@dicksonstreet.com ,__//`---'`-'_/
\` `-\ http://users.dicksonstreet.com/~billbo/ /-' '/
ICQ: 4673467 AOL IM: BillB0777
-- reply-to email masked - replace ? with billbo = real email address --
---------------------------------
alt.support.Divorce Resource List is at:
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:-) -- sig shamelessly copied from veronica on alt.ascii-art --
JOHN HANLEY
life stories out in public like this might want to consider the
consequences if/when an attorney collects these posts someday as part of
divorce or other related lawsuit. Just a thought.
John [H]
-----------------------------------
Victoria Dunlop wrote:
> Yes John, I think Kevin and Janie (and most everyone else) has had enough
> of this.
chi...@usa.net
>
> This thread *has* pointed up one thing to me: those of us who put our
> life stories out in public like this might want to consider the
> consequences if/when an attorney collects these posts someday as part of
> divorce or other related lawsuit. Just a thought.
My guess would be this is exactly why many people post under psuedonyms
and fake addresses.
Heidi
> John [H]
> -----------------------------------
Donna Tschetter
D.
On Sun, 1 Nov 1998, JOHN HANLEY wrote:
> This thread *has* pointed up one thing to me: those of us who put our
> life stories out in public like this might want to consider the
> consequences if/when an attorney collects these posts someday as part of
> divorce or other related lawsuit. Just a thought.
>
Andre Lieven
"Victoria Dunlop" (vdu...@online.no) writes:
> Bill Borsodi <?@dicksonstreet.com> wrote in article
> <36478ea5...@news.dicksonstreet.com>...
>> Nice post Victoria .........
>
> Thanks Bill.
>
> Comments follow .........
>
>> My crystal ball is kind of foggy this morn ... maybe I'm kinda tired of
>> this thread. So, I'll stick with the facts.
>>
>> Increase your vocabulary day:
>>
>> definitions:
>>
>> Sordid: 1) a) dirty; filthy b) squalid; depressingly wretched
>> 2) a) base; ignoble; mean
>> b) mercenary, avaricious, grasping, or meanly SELFISH.
>>
>> Affair: ... 5) an event that becomes a matter of public controversy
>> 6) an amorous relationship between two people not married
>> to each other; an amour
>>
>> Amour: a love affair, esp. of an illicit or secret nature.
>>
>> A sordid affair: 2 + 2 does not equal 1,379 folks ..
>> no matter how u juggle the numbers.
First of all, I totally agree with these definitions. Keeping them in mind
when looking at this topic is a good idea. It reminds us of what really is
going on.
>>
>> I do not negate the humans behind this subject. As, I'm sure, few
>> here on ASD do. I'm sure these people have many fine qualities. We are
>> specifically approaching a subject with words of truth and personal
>> experience. They may seem a personal attack, harsh and unsympathetic --
>> but, I have seen few responses that actually were. The truth can hurt. I
>> believe most only wanted them to see this so clearly that they will
>> never, ever consider this even a remote possibility in their life again.
>>
>> have a good day folks
>> BillBo
>
>
> Thought-provoking words, Bill. You've made me take a good, long hard at
> the Kevin-Jane issue and my reactions to it. Too often, in trying to make
> a point, our language - i.e. my language ;) - becomes harsh and strident.
> It is very easy to condemn, to neglect the human element, especially when
> the issues are the same ones we've encountered from the "other side" - as
> the betrayed spouse.
That's true, but from all that I've read ( and posted ) on this topic,
what was being " condemned " was the chosen behavior, not the total
person. While some were intemperate, it stemmed from the stated behavior,
not from something quite unrelated to the issue at hand.
It is very possible to " hate the war, but love the warrior ". To love in
this manner does not entail cooing nice words of unconditional support
of whatever behavior the recipient of this love is doing.
>
> Although Janie said she welcomed all input, the initial muttering of
> disapproval has become a roar of outrage over the past day or so. Even the
> strongest amongst us would find this difficult to bear. Perhaps she has
> come to ADS in the hope that, should the business with Kevin turn out badly
> for her, she might have a group of people with whom she's developed rapport
> and friendship to turn to for support. I can imagine what it must be like
> - alone and friendless in a strange new city. She is in a very vulnerable
> position. If Kevin dumps her and returns to his marriage (as most here are
> imploring him to do) she will need a lot of help to get back on her feet
> and get her life in order.
True, but all this stems from choices that she's made for herself. I have
little empathy for those who insist on making poor choices, even when
they do have the smarts to know better, then expect others to bail them out.
After a time, it becomes counceling sheer stupidity. It's a shame to have to
admmit, but there are people out there, who just don't get it. Who don't see
the world with enough empathy of their own, to earn it from others.
As for her being in a vulnerable position...if you're gonna walk through
Central Park naked, at 2 AM, alone, calling out for muggers...whadya think
is gonna happen ?
>
> While I don't condone what she has done, I CAN see that she is willing to
> listen (when she's not being hit over the head by the verbal equivalent of
> a plank). I think she's an intelligent woman who has the ability and the
> determination to turn this affair into something positive. She would no
> doubt benefit from a little empathy and support, rather than the bitter
> condemnation she's been getting of late.
Hold on there, for a second..." turn this affair into something positive " ?
This one, I gotta see. How is it going to be " positive " for Kevin's wife,
their children, and the rest of their families ? For that matter, once
Janie " wins " this reprobate, how is it going to be positive for either
of them ? She'll be on watch for him, 'cause he left one wife to a cheater,
why couldn't he do it again...and he'll have to watch her, for the next
guy that she " targets ". Now, this may not happen...but, I wouldn't
bet the rent money on it.
Again, I'll be very clear about this...the condemnation that she's gotten
here, has been for her stated actions and choices. One is always open to
" judgement"' by your actions and choices, because that's how we obtain
information about all other people. Actions do speak louder than words,
and I've learned that when there is a dichotemy between words and acts,
that the acts are the truth, and the words are not.
>
> Perhaps these words are too few too late and this thread, along with all
> the others pertaining to her issues, are being passed over by most everyone
> fed up with the verbal bashing, including Jane.
>
> Victoria.
Andre
--
" The noblest achievement of the imagination is to make time run some
other way, and terminate in beauty and forgivness "
David Gelernter, " 1939 "
stephanie
Janie is not going to let go of Kevin. She's moved to Albany and will hang
around like a vulture. She may even print out Kevin's story and mail it to
his wife. She will no longer use this forum as a foil for the following:
1. K&J "getting to explore each other" fantasy.
2. One-upping people in this database for whom she has a deep contempt but
has more or less hidden.
(She's a survivor, you see, with the biggest sob story and thinks a
lot of people here are wimps.)
3. Using this forum as a way to "get the wife" angst out of her
4. Trying to "stick it" to all the people here who have been cheated on
(She's been dying to show them how pathetic she thinks they are.)
5. Priming "K"
Janie will tire of Kevin and dump him when the long-term relationship
doldrums set in. This will occur when Kevin starts to get bored with Janie
and stops giving Janie the attention level she craves (most drama queens
need lots of adoration).
Both of them are into self-love as evidenced in their self-congratulatory
writings. Right now they are only feeding off each other.
Janie is a smart woman and competitive. She may want to win "Kevin" from
his wife. Kevin is a dope and probably has a low IQ for falling for her
act. (JMO) This is not a good match in a normal relationship setting
where the viability of marriage (the integrity of your future partner,
ability for constancy and real-life compatibility) should be of deep
importance to both, given that they are not children, this is not their
first relationship, and they are not young adolescent Romeo & Juliet's.
They have experienced life and marriage.
Janie needs a lot of attention - the kind of attention that only a married
man can give. Such a man is overwhelmingly delighted that he has found
some moral-less playmate to hang-out with on a part-time basis. What a
delight this is indeed. Your usual woman with an ingrained (and naturally)
solid value system and integrity is not going to cross those lines. So he
settles with a tramp and is delighted with this - finding her interesting
only in the sense that it is a wonderful high to get the attention when he
knows he should be off-limits. She's a real "deal".
Perhaps, Kevin even gets to think he's special because he hasn't figured
out yet that Janie just needs him for the attention and adoration and she
is just ripe for the picking and is perfectly willing to cross lines
because she is so "tolerant".
It's a real treat for the married man who finds some needy woman who is
willing to adore him even when he is married. What an ego stroke. Both
J&K feed off each other because both are selfish, self indulgent, and need
lots of attention and adoration. Which one of these two needs more
attention (stroking) is not clear. They may be equal on that scale.
Once "lines" have been removed by his un-married status and the
relationship settles in, he'll treat Janie the same way he treats his wife:
with increasing boredom - yawn. They may end up wasting several years
before they discover this. In fact, he may begin to find Janie's
immaturity irritating and treat her with a certain level of contempt as he
starts to miss his wholesome wife, who at that point will own everything he
has spent a good part of his life accumulating.
He may even start to blame Janie for this because he, too, is not someone
who is able to completely understand and absorb the word - responsibility
to others. He does, however, have a partially developed sense of
responsibility. That is, he fully understands the concept of
"responsibility to himself".
He is another one who chooses to label someone as "judgmental and
intolerant" when they don't enable his immaturity and chipped character.
He is another one that thinks you need lots of experience to give you the
tools to deal with life decisions, instead of just admitting that his
integrity is seriously flawed.
Integrity. Responsibility. Discipline. Heart. These are concepts that
both Janie and Kevin need to LEARN because it doesn't exist in a fully
developed and natural state within them already.
K&J both have an overblown sense of entitlement. Kevin's sense of
entitlement is also linked to his penis. J's sense of entitlement may come
from self esteem issues or from a "life is a grab bag" mentality brought
upon by former abuse.
(Recall Victor Frankl's "In search of meaning" book. Dr. Frankl tells how
holocaust survivors either learned from their horror, moved on and soared
ever upwards, or became numb, or worse turned their horror into a darker
path. The one's that took their horror to the dark side stomped on
innocent people's gardens and robbed others after getting out of camp
because they felt that if life was going to shit on them, then they were
going to dole some out to others who were lucky to be unscathed.)
Once K&J embrace these concepts (integrity, responsibility, soul) in a FULL
and TRUE manner, real happiness will come to them. Janie certainly
deserves that happiness. Kevin? He only deserves to be born in his next
life as a cockroach - to be squashed by some cuckolded housewife whose
husband is cheating on her.
Discipline, integrity, responsibility, DOING the RIGHT thing does not
cripple, it allows you to soar.
****************
By the way, I've known many woman (not married) who are pursued by married
men or have developed friendships with married men who try to escalate it
into something else. None of these women (no matter how desperate they
were) would cross those lines - they didn't need to have the experience and
pain of being on the receiving end of adultery to have integrity,
responsibility, heart.
Victoria Dunlop <vdu...@online.no> wrote in article
<01be05a4$b0aa9fa0$bbe64382@default>...
stephanie
I'm not sucking up at alll, but this was a great post. It comes from the
point of tempered honesty, which I believe to be honestly "your style".
Oh, If only I could be so nice and poetic. (But, I AIN'T so just ignore my
hot-headed style if it offends your gentle nature.)
Bill Borsodi <?@dicksonstreet.com> wrote in article
<36478ea5...@news.dicksonstreet.com>...
> Nice post Victoria .........
>
> My crystal ball is kind of foggy this morn ... maybe I'm kinda tired of
> this thread. So, I'll stick with the facts.
>
> Increase your vocabulary day:
>
> definitions:
>
> Sordid: 1) a) dirty; filthy b) squalid; depressingly wretched
> 2) a) base; ignoble; mean
> b) mercenary, avaricious, grasping, or meanly SELFISH.
>
> Affair: ... 5) an event that becomes a matter of public controversy
> 6) an amorous relationship between two people not married
> to each other; an amour
>
> Amour: a love affair, esp. of an illicit or secret nature.
>
> A sordid affair: 2 + 2 does not equal 1,379 folks ..
> no matter how u juggle the numbers.
>
> I do not negate the humans behind this subject. As, I'm sure, few
> here on ASD do. I'm sure these people have many fine qualities. We are
> specifically approaching a subject with words of truth and personal
> experience. They may seem a personal attack, harsh and unsympathetic --
> but, I have seen few responses that actually were. The truth can hurt. I
> believe most only wanted them to see this so clearly that they will
never,
> ever consider this even a remote possibility in their life again.
>
> have a good day folks
> BillBo
>
> On 1 Nov 1998 14:32:25 GMT, "Victoria Dunlop" <vdu...@online.no> wrote:
>
stephanie
Victoria Dunlop <vdu...@online.no> wrote in article
<01be05e7$fb3fcfc0$3ae64382@default>...
> Bill Borsodi <?@dicksonstreet.com> wrote in article
> <36478ea5...@news.dicksonstreet.com>...
> > Nice post Victoria .........
>
> Thanks Bill.
>
> Comments follow .........
>
> > My crystal ball is kind of foggy this morn ... maybe I'm kinda tired of
> > this thread. So, I'll stick with the facts.
> >
> > Increase your vocabulary day:
> >
> > definitions:
> >
> > Sordid: 1) a) dirty; filthy b) squalid; depressingly wretched
> > 2) a) base; ignoble; mean
> > b) mercenary, avaricious, grasping, or meanly SELFISH.
> >
> > Affair: ... 5) an event that becomes a matter of public controversy
> > 6) an amorous relationship between two people not married
> > to each other; an amour
> >
> > Amour: a love affair, esp. of an illicit or secret nature.
> >
> > A sordid affair: 2 + 2 does not equal 1,379 folks ..
> > no matter how u juggle the numbers.
> >
> > I do not negate the humans behind this subject. As, I'm sure, few
> > here on ASD do. I'm sure these people have many fine qualities. We are
> > specifically approaching a subject with words of truth and personal
> > experience. They may seem a personal attack, harsh and unsympathetic --
> > but, I have seen few responses that actually were. The truth can hurt.
I
> > believe most only wanted them to see this so clearly that they will
> never,
> > ever consider this even a remote possibility in their life again.
> >
> > have a good day folks
> > BillBo
>
>
> Thought-provoking words, Bill. You've made me take a good, long hard at
> the Kevin-Jane issue and my reactions to it. Too often, in trying to
make
> a point, our language - i.e. my language ;) - becomes harsh and strident.
> It is very easy to condemn, to neglect the human element, especially when
> the issues are the same ones we've encountered from the "other side" - as
> the betrayed spouse.
>
> Although Janie said she welcomed all input, the initial muttering of
> disapproval has become a roar of outrage over the past day or so. Even
the
> strongest amongst us would find this difficult to bear. Perhaps she has
> come to ADS in the hope that, should the business with Kevin turn out
badly
> for her, she might have a group of people with whom she's developed
rapport
> and friendship to turn to for support. I can imagine what it must be
like
> - alone and friendless in a strange new city. She is in a very
vulnerable
> position. If Kevin dumps her and returns to his marriage (as most here
are
> imploring him to do) she will need a lot of help to get back on her feet
> and get her life in order.
>
> While I don't condone what she has done, I CAN see that she is willing to
> listen (when she's not being hit over the head by the verbal equivalent
of
> a plank). I think she's an intelligent woman who has the ability and the
> determination to turn this affair into something positive. She would no
> doubt benefit from a little empathy and support, rather than the bitter
> condemnation she's been getting of late.
>
Wildman
Wildman
stephanie wrote in message <01be0718$2d365ea0$f54937a6@hkyxztrz>...