Forgot what the thread was called
Nahanton
who started it. I *think* it might've been Lil Rabbit posting about her m*m
and T transference.
A lot of ppl came in to talk about the intensity of feeling that they have for
their children. I believe Beauty, e and others, said that their kids are the
most important things in their lives (or something like that)
I've never experienced feelings like that. I've tried very hard, and read many
books about feelings. I feel an enormous sense of responsibility for my kids.
When they were young, I was the picture perfect m*m. I did everything just
right, but other than the sense of responsibility, I only felt the need to be
in my room with the door closed. I've always felt very guilty about this,
because I would look around me, and see my friends look at their kids with
adoration in their eyes. I did the "pretend" adoration thingy.....but it was
never the *real* thing. The best that I could do was "care" about them.
My kids are grown now, and I even have some grandchildren. I was hoping and
hoping it would be different with them. It's not. I go over to visit, I bring
gifts, I listen to how brilliant they are and their latest exploits, with what
seems like genuine interest. I even try to play with them, but, I only want to
get out of there and go home. The few times that I babysat for them, I again
did all the right things, but felt that I was in a nightmare, and was scared to
de*th, and wanted to get out of there as quickly as possible.
My T and I have been "working" on this lack of feeling for many moons it seems.
We start simple like: you like ice cream. See, that's a feeling! Oh,
Puhleeze!!!
I know about loyalty, responsibility, honesty, and I do know how to "care" I
use this word tentatively. I sort of thought that many people with DID had
problems with "feelings" as well. My T says that it wasn't safe to feel, so
that I numbed out. That made sense, but so far I haven't read about anyone
here who has had this problem regarding the ppl closest to them: children,
SOS, friends, p*rents, etc.
Does anyone know what I'm talking about? This is the first time since I began
reading asd that I feel a sense of isolation.....being alone with a problem.
Nahanton
Nancewt
>My T says that it wasn't safe to feel, so
>that I numbed out. That made sense, but so far I haven't read about anyone
>here who has had this problem regarding the ppl closest to them: children,
>SOS, friends, p*rents, etc.
I have great difficulty feeling any sense of attachment or dependency on people
in general. I have never been able to have enough feeling for another person to
have a really intimate relationship. I have no SO and probably never will. I
just cannot experience that depth of feelings. I've had boyfriends who I cared
about, but no feeling beyond that with them. I do care very much about my
friends, but I still think my sense of attachment to them is less than normal,
and while I enjoy being with them, I often would rather just leave and be by
myself. I have developed an attachment to my T, but only after years of work.
I feel strong l*ve and attachment to my clients, and I hope that someday I can
have children and feel this way for them, but I don't know. So I don't think
you're alone with this problem. I think it is hard for many people who have
been ab*sed to feel strong emotions for others. It sounds as if you do what you
need to do to be a good mother and grandmother in spite of this. -Nancy
Nahanton
>From: nan...@aol.com (Nancewt)
>Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 10:24 PM
>Message-id: <20010415222426...@ng-cv1.aol.com>
>
Nancy, please scroll below:
Nancy, thank you for responding to my post. You describe my feelings exactly.
I married young to a young man that I liked, who was smart, kind and didn't
expect too much of me. I respected him, and tried to build a marriage and have
kids "just like everyone else." The marriage lasted a long time because we
were kind and polite and genuinely liked one another, and we had two kids, but
I never felt much. We finally divorced, and I know it was the best thing for
me, and it definitely was a good decision for him. He is happily remarried to
a woman that I understand adores him. He deserves that.
I find it interesting that you are able to feel l*ve for your clients. That
means that you are capable of that emotion. I would think that that bodes well
for you in future attachments.
I too feel very attached to my T, but for me as well, it took quite a while.
I've always believed it to be common for ppl who have been ab*sed not to be
able to feel strong emotions, yet so many ppl here are able to. That's what
struck me. How come? Why? What is the secret? :O) It would be such a gift
not to feel like a phoney when I'm with my family.
Nahanton
Beauty
*I*, at least feel. Yes, my son is incredibly important to me - and yes I adore
him - there is no other word. I will not deny that I might have written at some
point that my son is the most important thing to me - maybe I did. But I am not
sure that I would put it that way. I think I might say that I care about him more
than anything else - even that I care about him more even than I care about my own
life. To me that's a shade different. The one has to do more with evaluative
judgement, or something, and the other has to do with affect. But, see, this
doesn't mean that I don't often forget to give him a proper supper because I get
involved in reading or writing - or sleeping. It doesn't mean that I don't have
other things that matter to me. And - most importantly - it doesn't mean that I am
always emotionally connected with him. Certainly, certainly I am not always
emotionally connected w/my husband - I find those closest to me to be the most
difficult to feel connected with emotionally. So if you are feeling as if that is
a solitary problem for you, please be advised that you have company! As for the
feelings side of things, I suspect that e will have a take on this question, too.
Interesting to find this here today, because I was just talking w/a woman at our
ch*rch about this issue as it appeared in that thread. A parent's love for the
child is fundamentally different from the child's love for the parent. The parent
is putting himself/herself into the child as an act of nature and then of will -
the parent sees past, present, and future in the child. The child receives life
sustenance from the parent - but the whole point of being a child is to grow up and
grow beyond needing the parent. (For at least one much more eloquent expansion of
this idea see a novel called "A Story of the Great War" - I can't recall the author
right now, but it was a best seller in the late 80s or early 90s - Mark Halperin?)
Anyhow. I just have given lots of thought to all of this, and also have seen
parents who have lost children and how it is with them - I can recall, in fact, an
incident from my early childhood in which a woman turned up on our doorstep in the
early hours of a Saturday morning - her baby was in the crib not breathing. Every
time I saw her after that, I wondered how she could continue to exist, how she
could ever smile again. Just did wonder.
Anyhow. Hope this all doesn't make you feel singled out, but since you mentioned
my name, I thought I 'd try to clarify a few things about how I do feel and how I
do behave. I'm not some kind of cozy "sacrifice my life for my children" kind of
chocolate chips "mom." Not that I have anything against that, really - it's just
not what I do. Too selfish, for one thing. And certainly, my most severe
difficulties w/dissociation have *always* been w/in my closest relationships.
Always.
Beauty.
ej
>
> Nahanton wrote:
> >My T says that it wasn't safe to feel, so
> >that I numbed out. That made sense, but so far I haven't read about anyone
> >here who has had this problem regarding the ppl closest to them: children,
> >SOS, friends, p*rents, etc.
>
> I have great difficulty feeling any sense of attachment or dependency on people
> in general. I have never been able to have enough feeling for another person to
> have a really intimate relationship. I have no SO and probably never will. I
I have friendships that I think are intimate, but I can go
long periods without having any contact with someone who is
a good friend and it doesn't bother me. And even people who
I really like, it's hard for me to go out of my way to
maintain contact with them if they are not someplace I run
across them in day to day life.
I don't have an SO and I don't think I ever will. Sometimes
that makes me kind of sad, but I don't think that I can do
my side of building that kind of relationship. Also, I see
absolutely no connection between s*x and l*ve. I don't
experience s*x as an expression of l*ve nor do I see s*x as
incompatible with l*ve. I don't know if that's healthy or
not, but for me it seems to interfere with establishing a
long-term s*x**l relationship. I had a short (less than a
month maybe) s*x**l relationship about a year ago, I think
it was. That was the first time I had s*x since the night I
got pr*gn*nt with my daughter, who will be 19 soon. I can't
say I regret it, exactly, but it wasn't worth the bother.
> just cannot experience that depth of feelings. I've had boyfriends who I cared
> about, but no feeling beyond that with them. I do care very much about my
> friends, but I still think my sense of attachment to them is less than normal,
> and while I enjoy being with them, I often would rather just leave and be by
> myself. I have developed an attachment to my T, but only after years of work.
> I feel strong l*ve and attachment to my clients, and I hope that someday I can
I think I'm becoming attached to my t. I haven't with my
other ts, though, and I'm not thrilled about being attached
to this one. And I don't want her to l*ve me. I don't like
that idea at all. But if we really do this t thing, then she
will come across some insiders who are not nice. And I think
that will make her go away because she doesn't l*ve me. To
me, l*ve is the only thing that keeps someone invested in a
relationship when the other person is mean sometimes.
I think the weirdest thing about attachment for me is that I
don't seem to be attached to *myself*. I don't understand
how that can happen. I'm not very attached to my family of
origin, either. I don't dislike them, but they are just not
all that important to me. Of all my siblings (there are 8 of
us), I think there are only 2 brothers who have an
attachment to each other. Interestingly, they are the 2 that
I like the least because I think they are kind of mean.
> have children and feel this way for them, but I don't know. So I don't think
> you're alone with this problem. I think it is hard for many people who have
> been ab*sed to feel strong emotions for others. It sounds as if you do what you
> need to do to be a good mother and grandmother in spite of this. -Nancy
I think for kids it's more important that we *do* the right
stuff than that we feel a certain way. Often with my
daughter I found myself in a position of telling her stuff
that I wasn't sure I believed because I thought it was what
she needed to believe. Mostly stuff about whether she will
ever be able to grow up and be healthy emotionally. (If my
daughter had been a son and was otherwise who she is, I
would worry that he could become a s*r**l k*ll*r. She still
could, but it's less common for women to do that. That's the
level of lack of empathy that she seems to display
sometimes.) So many other people give her messages that seem
to tell her that, essentially, she's just sort of stuck, I
think someone needs to give her the message that she has
control over the choices she makes and that those choices
will determine how her life turns out to a large extent.
Sorry. Wandering off into my own parenting issues and my own
parenting pain. The last week or so it's been more painful
than it has for a few months, and the pain somehow always
takes me by surprise. I'm attached to my daughter, but
sometimes wish that I wasn't.
ej
Nahanton
>Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 6:30 AM
>Message-id: <3ADABC78...@austin.rr.com>
Hi ej.....thanks for writing.....see below.
>Nancewt wrote:
>>
>> Nahanton wrote:
>> >My T says that it wasn't safe to feel, so
>> >that I numbed out. That made sense, but so far I haven't read about
>anyone
>> >here who has had this problem regarding the ppl closest to them: children,
>> >SOS, friends, p*rents, etc.
>>
>> I have great difficulty feeling any sense of attachment or dependency
>on people
>> in general. I have never been able to have enough feeling for another
>person to
>> have a really intimate relationship. I have no SO and probably never will.
>I
>
>I have friendships that I think are intimate, but I can go
>long periods without having any contact with someone who is
>a good friend and it doesn't bother me. And even people who
>I really like, it's hard for me to go out of my way to
>maintain contact with them if they are not someplace I run
>across them in day to day life.
This is howI feel as well. I can spend long periods of time alone, and then be
surprised when a friend expresses displeasure with me because she is always the
one who has to initiate contact.
>
>I don't have an SO and I don't think I ever will. Sometimes
>that makes me kind of sad, but I don't think that I can do
>my side of building that kind of relationship. Also, I see
>absolutely no connection between s*x and l*ve. I don't
>experience s*x as an expression of l*ve nor do I see s*x as
>incompatible with l*ve. I don't know if that's healthy or
>not, but for me it seems to interfere with establishing a
>long-term s*x**l relationship. I had a short (less than a
>month maybe) s*x**l relationship about a year ago, I think
>it was. That was the first time I had s*x since the night I
>got pr*gn*nt with my daughter, who will be 19 soon. I can't
>say I regret it, exactly, but it wasn't worth the bother.
I think it would be nice to have a SO, but the anxiety and investment of energy
and time makes it feel amost too much for me to contemplate. Major fear factor
too.
>
>> just cannot experience that depth of feelings. I've had boyfriends who
>I cared
>> about, but no feeling beyond that with them. I do care very much about
>my
>> friends, but I still think my sense of attachment to them is less than
>normal,
>> and while I enjoy being with them, I often would rather just leave and
>be by
>> myself. I have developed an attachment to my T, but only after years
>of work.
>> I feel strong l*ve and attachment to my clients, and I hope that someday
>I can
>
>I think I'm becoming attached to my t. I haven't with my
>other ts, though, and I'm not thrilled about being attached
>to this one. And I don't want her to l*ve me. I don't like
>that idea at all. But if we really do this t thing, then she
>will come across some insiders who are not nice. And I think
>that will make her go away because she doesn't l*ve me. To
>me, l*ve is the only thing that keeps someone invested in a
>relationship when the other person is mean sometimes.
Then you feel that emotion.....l*ve?? I know that some people l*ve me, yet the
most _I_ feel is "caring" for _them_.
>
>I think the weirdest thing about attachment for me is that I
>don't seem to be attached to *myself*. I don't understand
>how that can happen. I'm not very attached to my family of
>origin, either. I don't dislike them, but they are just not
>all that important to me. Of all my siblings (there are 8 of
>us), I think there are only 2 brothers who have an
>attachment to each other. Interestingly, they are the 2 that
>I like the least because I think they are kind of mean.
>
>> have children and feel this way for them, but I don't know. So I don't
>think
>> you're alone with this problem. I think it is hard for many people who
>have
>> been ab*sed to feel strong emotions for others. It sounds as if you do
>what you
>> need to do to be a good mother and grandmother in spite of this. -Nancy
>
>I think for kids it's more important that we *do* the right
>stuff than that we feel a certain way. Often with my
>daughter I found myself in a position of telling her stuff
>that I wasn't sure I believed because I thought it was what
>she needed to believe.
This is what I've done with my kids. Most of the stuff I told them was from
what I've seen and mostly what I've read.
Mostly stuff about whether she will
>ever be able to grow up and be healthy emotionally. (If my
>daughter had been a son and was otherwise who she is, I
>would worry that he could become a s*r**l k*ll*r. She still
>could, but it's less common for women to do that. That's the
>level of lack of empathy that she seems to display
>sometimes.) So many other people give her messages that seem
>to tell her that, essentially, she's just sort of stuck, I
>think someone needs to give her the message that she has
>control over the choices she makes and that those choices
>will determine how her life turns out to a large extent.
>
>Sorry. Wandering off into my own parenting issues and my own
>parenting pain. The last week or so it's been more painful
>than it has for a few months, and the pain somehow always
>takes me by surprise. I'm attached to my daughter, but
>sometimes wish that I wasn't.
I understand, ej. There was a very long period of time that I didn't know what
would become of my daughter. She was so hard, tough and angry. It took many
years, but to my amazement is now a social worker taking into account the
emotional needs of others. She's very good at that, but still has some
problems with her own stuff IMO.
Nahanton
>
>ej
Nahanton
>Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 11:48 PM
>Message-id: <3ADA6B87...@pioneeris.net>
>
Hi Beauty, thanks for your response, please scroll:
I thank you for the time you spent answering my post. I found what you had to
say interesting. I do think my point was, that is seemed to me that you and
many others here feel strong l*ve for their children or others, despite
problems such as DID, or other MH disabilities. I've always felt a large "gap"
where this "love" thingy is supposed to fit.
Nahanton
John D.
I wanted to say you aren't alone. I have two teenage boys, I too was really good with them
till the age of about 7. things changed. When I look back, I know I loved them, but was
it more of that feeling one gets from holding babies, kittens, puppies? I think I wanted
it to be okay, didn't want to be a b*d m*m. I'm not, but I know a lot of what I did was going
through the motions, I remember even going numb and not really being there when changing
diapers or giving baths. When they got older, I think I was fearful that they were like men in
boys bodies (there taller and stronger and sometimes scary to us) they aren't b*d, but they
certainly trigger a lot inside of me. And I feel so quilty that I can't just be there for them. I
don't think I give them the right love, I don't mean not to, I mean I do really care about them
and their furture, but many nights I have to go numb just to give a k*ss goodnight, I always
hope they can't tell and of course sometimes we switch and they get a 5 yr old part or
something. Sometimes I wonder if I am just really depressed and don't admit it. 10 yrs.
ago, I use to be the aunt that played with the nieces and nephrews, now I usually feel as
you said. Then I blame myself and say, maybe its pre-menopause stuff. Feelings for me
can be all or nothing. meaning when it is all we feel to many things and shut down, switch,
go away inside, then go numb.(Good and b*d feelings) Sometimes I have no idea what
I am feeling, but can cry for 13 hrs straight and just feel pain, but not sure why. When t's
say what are you feeling, I don't know, I get sometimes many voices inside clashing or just
static or fear. mmmmm, is fear a feeling? I guess I feel that a lot. Nice to meet you, Sharona
"Nahanton" <naha...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20010415135145...@ng-ci1.aol.com...
Macademia
neither of your posts are foreign to me. Not the same as me but not
foreign.
Um, sometimes I play with my child and feel really good and really
present.
A lot of the time I am not there. I cry a lot over how he doesn't have a
normal m*m. I feel inadequate 'cause twenty years from now I may want to
have "been" present with my guy. And cry 'cause he deserves more than a
hollow shell for a m*m.
Tried to teach him to tell me when I space out really bad. Figure it
might be better than him hammering on the patio doors or whatever. He
escalates what he does the more spacey I am. Anyhow, I told him to come
up to me an shout, "Space out, M*ma, space out!" He hasn't used it yet.
Hopefully he will. Hopefully I won't space out so much.
Sometimes I worry 'cause he looks like my p*rp. Weird generational
skipping of Norwegian features (3 removed) and I hope that doesn't get
worse.
What makes me the saddest is I *don't* want to be a hollow shell with
him. I know this is precious time, but I cannot do it. I don't know why.
Makes me very sad. I am glad he has daycare but it makes me so sad. I
want to be close to him, I want to show him his first bugs, and show him
about the world. But I can't. <tears>
Not the same but not opposite from you two,
Macademia
Mourning Dove
I can relate to quite a bit of what you've said, and actually wrote a
response earlier today but then immediately deleted it. Guess I'm not
really for venture to far into that territory yet. For me, those
feelings (or lack thereof), involve my p*rents, s*blings, and almost
anyone else from my past. I feel guilty because I feel nothing. I try
to act like a good, caring daughter (as much as one can while living 1000
miles away from them), but feel like such a fraud. I feel so
uncomfortable when I call them. I have very rare contact with
s*blings--perhaps a holiday card to be cordial.
As for my SO....my husband prefers to stay out of the realm of emotions.
He does not wish to explore his own, and is rather uncomfortable with my
inner & emotional life. He seems to inhabit a plane where emotions do
not exist, and I often have to explain psychological/emotional things to
him. When I first tried to explain DID to him, his response was..."There
is no way you can explain this mathematically, is there?" ?!?!?
I think it is very telling that I ended up with a man like this for
20some years. I don't know how I would handle being involved with
someone who seemed head over heels in love with me.
I don't even know if this relates to what you were saying, after all. I
have some ego-states that feel (but aren't allowed to express), and some
that do not, so it all gets kind of mixed up.....I'm sorry you're feeling
isolated in this.
mdove
Nahanton (naha...@aol.com)wrote:
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Nahanton
>Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 2:36 PM
>Message-id: <9bfdr2$2r20$1...@twwells.com>
>
Hi, mdove, thanks for writing, see below:
>Hi, Nahanton,
>
>I can relate to quite a bit of what you've said, and actually wrote a
>response earlier today but then immediately deleted it. Guess I'm not
>really for venture to far into that territory yet. For me, those
>feelings (or lack thereof), involve my p*rents, s*blings, and almost
>anyone else from my past. I feel guilty because I feel nothing. I try
>to act like a good, caring daughter (as much as one can while living 1000
>miles away from them), but feel like such a fraud. I feel so
>uncomfortable when I call them. I have very rare contact with
>s*blings--perhaps a holiday card to be cordial.
I understand this.....the word "fraud" is so appropriate. I try to have
contact with family because it's the 'responsible' thing to do. I guess I was
pretty well indoctrinated, as I'm always trying to do the 'responsible,
appropriate' things. (Geese, I'm beginning to h*te those words.)
>
>As for my SO....my husband prefers to stay out of the realm of emotions.
Ah, a soul mate of my ex-husband.
>
>He does not wish to explore his own, and is rather uncomfortable with my
>inner & emotional life. He seems to inhabit a plane where emotions do
>not exist, and I often have to explain psychological/emotional things to
>him. When I first tried to explain DID to him, his response was..."There
>is no way you can explain this mathematically, is there?" ?!?!?
>I think it is very telling that I ended up with a man like this for
>20some years. I don't know how I would handle being involved with
>someone who seemed head over heels in love with me.
This, more than anything makes me feel that you've been in my head! :O) My
ex-husband is a physicist, and only understood things that could be proven. If
I could've shown him mathematically my lack of feeling, then, perhaps he
would've understood. I also was relieved that he didn't expect too much from
me in that area.
>
> I don't even know if this relates to what you were saying, after all.
This relates a good deal.
>I
>have some ego-states that feel (but aren't allowed to express), and some
>that do not, so it all gets kind of mixed up.....I'm sorry you're feeling
>isolated in this.
>
>mdove
Thank you mdove, since reading your post and so many others,I don't feel
isolated in this anymore. It seemed as if I was only hearing one half of the
story.
Nahanton
Nahanton
>Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 9:42 AM
>Message-id: <tdlua8...@corp.supernews.com>
>
Hi Sharona,
It seems like your having a rough time in the "feeling department" too, but you
can look back and know that you loved them. This is good to hang on to. The
other part....going numb, not really being there....I've experienced, and it's
a real bummer. I "think" fear is a feeling. I know that one a lot. Nice to
meet you too, and thanks for writing.
Nahanton
Nahanton
>Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 4:02 PM
>Message-id: <3ADB4FDB...@pobox.com>
>
Hi Macademia,
>Um, I don't know how much I can say on this 'cause it's upsetting. But
>neither of your posts are foreign to me. Not the same as me but not
>foreign.
I hope not too upsetting. It was bothering me a lot, and I thought I'd write
and find out if (what seemed to me) everyone had feelings of l*ve for the kids,
SO's, relatives, etc.
>
>Um, sometimes I play with my child and feel really good and really
>present.
>
>A lot of the time I am not there. I cry a lot over how he doesn't have a
>normal m*m. I feel inadequate 'cause twenty years from now I may want to
>have "been" present with my guy. And cry 'cause he deserves more than a
>hollow shell for a m*m.
When my kids were little, I used to go into their rooms after they were asleep,
and promise to be a better m*ther the next day. I felt too, that they deserved
so much more than I was able to give.
>
>Tried to teach him to tell me when I space out really bad. Figure it
>might be better than him hammering on the patio doors or whatever. He
>escalates what he does the more spacey I am. Anyhow, I told him to come
>up to me an shout, "Space out, M*ma, space out!" He hasn't used it yet.
>Hopefully he will. Hopefully I won't space out so much.
I really hope that this tactic will work for you.
>
>Sometimes I worry 'cause he looks like my p*rp. Weird generational
>skipping of Norwegian features (3 removed) and I hope that doesn't get
>worse.
:O(
>
>What makes me the saddest is I *don't* want to be a hollow shell with
>him. I know this is precious time, but I cannot do it. I don't know why.
>Makes me very sad. I am glad he has daycare but it makes me so sad. I
>want to be close to him, I want to show him his first bugs, and show him
>about the world. But I can't. <tears>
Yup, you got it. Exactly how I felt and still feel even though they're all
grown up. Want so much for it to be different.
>
>Not the same but not opposite from you two,
>Macademia
Pretty close, Macademia....thank you so much for writing.
Nahanton
trill
Many of the feelings that I was trained to associate with words like
"l*ve" and "care" and "respect" and "affection" when I was a child turn out
to be something other than what I now believe should, in a healthy model, be
associated with those words, and so, I am trying to retrain myself. That is
part of my therapeutic process, I think. An aspect of that is to learn not
to blame myself for the strife and conflict within my FOO. The FOO
certainly blames me for every bit of it. And I know, in the realm of logic,
that they are wrong. I just can't learn that emotionally.
The point? My emotional education was screwed up and perverted from the
day I was born.
Of late, my t has been repeating emphatically to me that I learned to
dissociate at a very young age. Maybe prediscursively. I think that's
pretty bad and will, in the big picture, only mean that it will be more
difficult than I expected fromt he get go to get well. Certainly it will
take longer than I anticipated. I mean, I had the gaul and audacity to
believe I'd be all fixed by now.
Ha, ha, ha.
I just took a nice big dose of Vitamin X because I found myself curled
into a tight fetal ball with a wild heartbeat, cold sweat, and utter,
unfocused panic seizing all of my muscles and internal organs.
Anyway... I think I learned to mimic emotions in the familial realm
over the years. Now, I am so practiced at it that people believe that I've
got cares that I don't actually experience, not consistently anyway. I do
have occasional moments of intensse emotion, intense attachment, admiration,
respect... Stuff that I think might be the real stuff of love. I tell
myself that I'm feeling something in that moment that resides somewhere in
my sub or unconscious and I just want to unlock it for a more regular
experience, but...
In adult years I have lost an unusual number of friends to d*ath. Five
close, long term friends d*ed by the time I was 40 years old. And, well,
that's just about everybody who was able and/or allowed to fit into that
category. The one person who stayed alive whom I counted in the close
friend circle stopped talking to me when I told her of my DID dx.
Undergoing that level of loss resulted in me having a more closed and
cavalier response to people whom I befriend. It isn't deliberate. I
remember noting the onset of it. I remember thinking that I had no more
stamina to survive any more losses. I remember thinking that my heart was
like one of those Russian dolls where smaller and smaller dolls fit inside
of the larger ones. I remember thinking that all but the smallest had been
broken beyond the point of repair, and now, finally, the littlest one was
cracked.
I did not know how I could hold up.
It seems that the way I've managed has been not to really let myself
feel. I look at the people with whom I socialize as people with whom I
socialize. I don't allow myself to identify with them in any way. I
anticipate that all relationships are temporary.
I contain, I think, emotions that I probably shouldn't contain, for as I
said above, I do have moments of intense feelings, when stuff escapes
containment, but then I do get it under control again.
I never see the son I raised. I have no idea where he is or what he is
doing with his adult life. He will be 31 yrs. old in June. I don't know
how to find him. I don't have a clue as to whether he knows how to find me
or has any interest in speaking with me again. (It's a long complicated
story that has much more to do with his mother than him, so I won't go into
that now.) But, I don't cry about it. I don't worry about it. I don't
think about it. It doesn't occur to me very frequently.
This probably isn't helping. So, I'm sorry.
I care about you. I've had those occasional, brief, intense moments
regarding you.
What is working is the vitamin x. I'm nodding a little. I think I should
brush my teeth and take a dose of ambien and go to sleep.
I think I have more to say, but the bed beckons and that, I think, is good.
so, more or less,
later and soon,
malf,
trill
Nahanton <naha...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010415135145...@ng-ci1.aol.com...
Nahanton
>Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 2:54 PM
>Message-id: <8ucmdtc34cl3e4uss...@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
>
Hey e......glad to hear from you.
>Nahanton wrote:
>>A lot of ppl came in to talk about the intensity of feeling that they have
>for
>>their children. I believe Beauty, e and others, said that their kids are
>the
>>most important things in their lives (or something like that)
>
>i said that. it's not a particularly good thing IMO. it's good in
>some ways and bad in others, like having one's kids be less
>important to them and having other things, e.g., one's work, be
>more important than one's kids.
I'd like it to be that my kids were of the most importance to me and then my
work. Unfortunately, I seemed to be happier at work, than with my kids. No
one at work expected me to l*ve them, I guess.
one thing i didn't say was that
>i've known ppl who were good parents (IMO) who were across most
>of the spectrum about how important their kids were to them, from
>"somewhat" to "very". ditto for ppl who weren't good parents
>(IMO).
Yes, I've observed that too.
>
>>I've never experienced feelings like that. I've tried very hard, and read
>many
>>books about feelings. I feel an enormous sense of responsibility for my
>kids.
>>When they were young, I was the picture perfect m*m. I did everything
>just
>>right,
>
>not me. i didn't know what "right" was, much less "just right".
> ;-) i bumbled along. things seem to have turned out well so
>far. i'm not sure that has all that much to do with my parenting,
>though. ;-)
It seems that feeling natural and bumbling along is maybe the way to go. I
felt little to nothing, so I had to watch other ppl and read guide books.
>
>>but other than the sense of responsibility, I only felt the need to be
>>in my room with the door closed.
>
>i've frequently felt that way. i didn't realize it for a while
>but my idea of a good parent was someone who didn't interfere
>with hir kids (except for things like safety reasons or when they
>were being mean).
I thought that you were supposed to do more than what you described, but what
you described is just about all I could do.
>
>a few teachers pointed that out to me over the years. i'd hang in
>the back of the room or playground and talk to kids who came up
>to me or, if there was a kid who seemed to be having problems,
>i'd ask them if they wanted my help but otherwise i tried to stay
>out of kids' ways. esp my kid's. ;-) teachers would ask me why
>i did that. i dunno but it always seemed more respectful to me.
>my daughter's T said something about that being my parenting
>style, too. i told her it seemed like the most helpful thing a
>parent could do.
>
>ok. i realize some of that comes from my childhood but i still
>think it's generally a good idea. ;-)
It doesn't seem to be a bad idea. It seems from the little that you say, that
you and your kid are close.
>
>i think you and i have talked before about wanting to scream
>"leave me alone" and run away when we were around our kids. so
>i'm not sure we're as different as it might sound. (fwiw, most
>other parents i know feel like that sometimes. i'm pretty sure i
>feel that way much more than most parents but it's a difference
>in quantity. ;)
You have a good memory. Yes, we did talk about that.:O) I don't think that
that feeling is unnatural, I think most parents feel that way to some degree.
I think that the degree that I felt it, was a lot stronger than most.
>
>>I've always felt very guilty about this,
>>because I would look around me, and see my friends look at their kids with
>>adoration in their eyes. I did the "pretend" adoration thingy.....but
>it was
>>never the *real* thing. The best that I could do was "care" about them.
>
>i don't know if i adore my kid. not in the way one of my cats
>adores me. my kid and i laugh about it bc there's no other word
>to describe it. he follows me around and is *very* happy when
>he's near me, esp if i pay *any* attention to him. he doesn't
>want other ppls' attention: he wants mine. he strongly prefers me
>even to his own litter mates.
>
>i don't adore my kid in that sense. i don't want hir attention
>all the time (or even 10% of the time) and sie certainly doesn't
>want mine. (thank g*d sie grew out of that. ;)
I didn't mean adore in quite the way that your cat behaves :) I meant that
"look" I see sometimes when they look at their kids. It's a l*ve look, I
think.
>
>i like hir. i'm glad sie likes me. i love hir which is weird. i'd
>miss hir if sie wasn't around which is very weird. i'd be upset
>if sie died which is also really weird. i dunno. is that
>adoration? is that what you were trying to simulate?
Yes, yes,yes,: I want ALL of that. Maybe the wrong word is adoration, but
what you describe is what I want to be able to feel.
>>
>>My kids are grown now, and I even have some grandchildren. I was hoping
>and
>>hoping it would be different with them. It's not. I go over to visit,
>I bring
>>gifts, I listen to how brilliant they are and their latest exploits, with
>what
>>seems like genuine interest. I even try to play with them, but, I only
>want to
>>get out of there and go home. The few times that I babysat for them, I
>again
>>did all the right things, but felt that I was in a nightmare, and was scared
>to
>>de*th, and wanted to get out of there as quickly as possible.
>
>sometimes i liked playing with my kid but often it was like
>you're describing here. i loved hir a lot but often didn't want
>to be around hir. those two aren't the same for me.
This I can understand. You can love someone, and not want to be with them at
times. I agree, I don't think the two are the same either.
>
>i feel a strong connection to hir that has nothing to do with
>anything really. i felt it soon after sie was born: i knew that
>no matter what either of us did we'd always be connected in a way
>that was strong and deeply meaningful for me. i didn't seek that.
>i didn't particularly like it. it just happened. i had no more
>control over it happening than you do over it not happening.
What you describe is what I would like to have control over. I thought that I
wanted children very much, and when I had my first child, and they brought him
in to me, I put him down on the bed and moved as far away from him as I could.
I would feed him with a bottle, then put him down away from me again. Even
while in the hospital, I was shocked at my behavior.
>>
>>My T and I have been "working" on this lack of feeling for many moons it
>seems.
>> We start simple like: you like ice cream. See, that's a feeling! Oh,
>>Puhleeze!!!
>
>lol. it sounds like it bothers you that you don't feel things.
>why do you want to? (i'm lost as usual. ;) do you feel like you
>should or is it something you really want? how come?
I'm pretty happy most of the time that I'm not overwhelmed with feelings or
emotion. It gets in the way of clear thinking and performance IMO. I do feel
limited in the range of feelings that I *do* have.
>>
>>I know about loyalty, responsibility, honesty, and I do know how to "care"
> I
>>use this word tentatively. I sort of thought that many people with DID
>had
>>problems with "feelings" as well.
>
>some do. other ppl seem to be overwhelmed by their feelings (or
>some part of the system has strong feelings). i've sometimes had
>them since the haldol messed up my brain. i think they're
>bizarre, inconvenient, and interfere with lots of things. i
>really don't understand why anyone would want them. but the
>feeling i have about my kid is ok. it's not something i'd seek
>but i don't wish it would go away either.
>
>it seems to me like Feeler in your system has strong feelings,
>like when you ran over the dog. i wouldda felt guilty about it
>and wouldda thought "bummer" or something tte but i wouldn't have
>been upset like Feeler was. it's a living creature. therefore,
>it's going to die soon anyway. what's the big deal? (i've felt
>that way when friends and family have died, too. although i feel
>bad for the ppl who are upset by their death.)
Yes, you're right (you have an amazing memory!) Feeler is just that.....she
feels..... If that were me, I'd have tried to help, then when the dog died I
would've felt badly for the owners, then that would be the end of it for me.
Just recently, one of my oldest and best friends died. I miss her. I like to
talk about her, but I haven't grieved. Someone told me that talking about
someone whom you were close to that died, is a form of grieving. Maybe so. I
know that I didn't feel that feeling that I've observed in others....kinda
falling to pieces, depression, a myriad of things I've not experienced. I miss
her. Period.
>
>and wasn't someone in your system PO'd at your perps or
>something? e.g., why don't you want to have anything to do with
>your brother? i don't get that unless you're hurt or angry. i
>don't care what my perps did, i only care how they act now. i
>think it's bc i'm not angry or hurt. but maybe it's something
>else.
I'm still trying to get angry with my perps. I find that very difficult. I
always seem to get angry with me instead. I was angry with my br*ther because
he's done a hurtful thing. That is very rare for me. What he did was a bigee.
>
>>My T says that it wasn't safe to feel, so that I numbed out.
>
>that sounds like something a T would say. did you ask him what
>his evidence for that was? if he has any, plmk. i'm not holding
>my breath. ;-)
LOL, I didn't think to ask him for evidence. Do you mean forensic evidence?
:) BTW, what does plmk mean?
>
>>That made sense, but so far I haven't read about anyone
>>here who has had this problem regarding the ppl closest to them: children,
>>SOS, friends, p*rents, etc.
>
>what probem: having feelings?
Yes, problem being not having feelings of l*ve.
>
>i dislike my SO and am often frustrated bc he's sexist IMO. does
>that count? sometimes my friends annoy me bc they call too often.
>sometimes i worry about them. do those count? fwiw, i think that
>those feelings are generally undesirable. they interfere with
>proper functioning. (lol. i don't know why i thought that but i
>did and since most of my posts are stream-of-consciousness, i'll
>leave it in.) i'd rather not have feelings.
I understand others being p*ssed off. I do get annoyed, but that doesn't last
too long. So, e....you'd rather *not* have feelings, and I want to pick and
choose the feelings that for me are desireable.
>
>don't you feel something for your T? i never have. well,
>annoyance and frustration. and the "please don't kill me" or
>"gtfafm, you perv" transference things.
Yes, I do feel something for my T. That does bewilder me. I just write it off
to transference, but I'm always afraid that I'll say something that will make
him angry, and that he'll dump me.......I also know, that this would be *your*
dream come true. LOL :)
>>
>>Does anyone know what I'm talking about? This is the first time since
>I began
>>reading asd that I feel a sense of isolation.....being alone with a problem.
>
>i'm not sure if this is responsive or not. i hope it helps.
You're always responsive, and I always enjoy reading what you have to say. (I
don't know if it helps, but you always have an interesting take on things.)
Thanks.
Nahanton
>
>e
ej
Interspersed where appropriate...
I don't know if it's fear for me so much as it's just not
worth the bother. I have this vision of the perfect house
for me if I were part of a couple. He would have his area
and I would have my area. In the middle would be a common
area. Each of us would have walls that we could close
between our personal space and our shared space. If it ever
happened that we both opened our walls at the same time,
fine. But don't bother me by knocking if my wall is closed.
Doesn't sound like it would be much of a relationship,
though.
> >
> >> just cannot experience that depth of feelings. I've had boyfriends who
> >I cared
> >> about, but no feeling beyond that with them. I do care very much about
> >my
> >> friends, but I still think my sense of attachment to them is less than
> >normal,
> >> and while I enjoy being with them, I often would rather just leave and
> >be by
> >> myself. I have developed an attachment to my T, but only after years
> >of work.
> >> I feel strong l*ve and attachment to my clients, and I hope that someday
> >I can
> >
> >I think I'm becoming attached to my t. I haven't with my
> >other ts, though, and I'm not thrilled about being attached
> >to this one. And I don't want her to l*ve me. I don't like
> >that idea at all. But if we really do this t thing, then she
> >will come across some insiders who are not nice. And I think
> >that will make her go away because she doesn't l*ve me. To
> >me, l*ve is the only thing that keeps someone invested in a
> >relationship when the other person is mean sometimes.
>
> Then you feel that emotion.....l*ve?? I know that some people l*ve me, yet the
> most _I_ feel is "caring" for _them_.
Gee, I don't know. Maybe. It's hard for me to identify
feelings. What I usually do when someone asks how I'm
feeling is look at how I'm behaving and deduce the feelings
from that. I'm crying so I guess I'm sad. My teeth are
clenched so maybe I'm angry. I'm talking and laughing so
maybe I'm feeling okay. I'm doing this thing because I think
the other person will get enjoyment from it and I'm not
fuming at the same time, so it could be that I love hir.
*shrug* Sometimes thought patterns are part of the equation.
But it's very rare for me to know how I'm feeling in a more
direct way (which I guess other people can do).
Sometimes my daughter is pretty wonderful. But sometimes
she's mean and thoughtless and even cruel. Most of the time
I don't think she *intends* to be, but she is anyways. If
she makes it to her mid-20s, she'll probably be alright. At
this point, though, she does some things that are very, very
dangerous and she could well be d**d before she figures
things out. I just keep talking to her about what she does
that worries me, how much her judgement has improved and
that it will probably keep improving, and that she can learn
to make good decisions for herself. All that fairy-tale
stuff I mentioned earlier. Which generally fires off a round
of internal nastiness, but I do it anyway. Which makes me
think I probably l*ve her. Maybe.
ej
>
> Nahanton
> >
> >ej
ej
Nahanton wrote:
>
> >Subject: Re: Forgot what the thread was called
> >From: Macademia jkt...@pobox.com
> >Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 4:02 PM
> >Message-id: <3ADB4FDB...@pobox.com>
> >
> Hi Macademia,
>
> >Um, I don't know how much I can say on this 'cause it's upsetting. But
> >neither of your posts are foreign to me. Not the same as me but not
> >foreign.
>
> I hope not too upsetting. It was bothering me a lot, and I thought I'd write
> and find out if (what seemed to me) everyone had feelings of l*ve for the kids,
> SO's, relatives, etc.
> >
> >Um, sometimes I play with my child and feel really good and really
> >present.
> >
> >A lot of the time I am not there. I cry a lot over how he doesn't have a
> >normal m*m. I feel inadequate 'cause twenty years from now I may want to
> >have "been" present with my guy. And cry 'cause he deserves more than a
> >hollow shell for a m*m.
>
> When my kids were little, I used to go into their rooms after they were asleep,
> and promise to be a better m*ther the next day. I felt too, that they deserved
> so much more than I was able to give.
"Never enough" That's been a life-long refrain in my head.
Not sure where it comes from. Well, maybe I do. I'm one of 8
children. I know of only 2 stories in the family that
involve me at all. One may not be common knowledge in the
family, though. Sometimes when Mom was angry at me, she
would tell me that the night I was conceived, she *told* my
dad that she was sure to get pregnant if they had sex that
night. He said that it was okay, he was ready for another
baby. She told me that to "prove" how much she loved me, but
she only told me when she was very, very angry. The other
story was how tickled my mom was when she saw that I had
brown eyes as a baby. End of story. (Most of my sibs are
blue-eyed.)
My mom can't tell me if I've ever had chicken pox. I asked
her once who watched us when she worked and I was an infant.
She has no idea. Can't even say if it was a neighbor or some
kind of day care or anything. Hasn't the foggiest.
I'm brilliant. I'm kind. I'm funny. I'm never enough. My
sibs are mostly brilliant and funny, too. Most of them are
kind. Never enough. Never enough. Never enough...
Parenting sure hooked into the "Never enough" realm and
still does. I hate it.
ej
Itchy
Hi RC.....glad to hear from you!
Feel free to post this to the group. I'm emailing cause of my computer
problems *STOMP*
I truly feel for your situation. May your computer be repaired quickly.
This is my strongest wish for you. I know how I would feel sans computer.
I never felt this way specifically about kidlette but I have felt this
way about everything else. As far as I can tell, for me it is the
basic core of my dissociation. At some point in my childhood I had to
turn off my emotions and they never turned back on. Tell your t'pist
that the idea that 'you like ice cream. that is a feeling' is dumb!:)
Liking ice cream is _not_ a feeling, it's a condition or state or
whatever it's called. The happiness you feel when you get the ice
cream is the feeling,or contentment when you eat it or...
I agree that lack of feeling has to do with dissociation. The big question
is: What can one do about it? I also agree with you that the ice cream
thingy was pretty dumb. He usually does better metaphors than that.
I'd have to say that for me the whole kidlette thing has been very
very different from the rest of my life. I had feelings about her
before she was born (totally freaked me out and surprised the heck out
of me!!!) and these feelings continued after she was born. As I have
no experience with them overall I have no names for these feelings. I
think I experienced this once before in my life, on my wedding day.
I'm amazed!! You had feeling about her before she was born. ***Just had a
thought: The time I was pregnant was probably the most happy content time
of
my life. I could just sit and imagine what was happening inside of me, and
when sie started to move, I needed nothing else except that. After having
the b*by, it took me quite a while to adjust to not having that "feeling"
inside. I wanted it back. Wow, I haven't thought of that in years.
Unfortunately, I didn't have feelings like that after the b*rth. On my
wedding day, I wanted to run. My m*m said I couldn't because the wedding
was
costing her so much money and "was I crazy." So obedient person that I
was/am, I walked down the aisle, knowing that I was making a *huge* mistake.
However, I wouldn't say that kidlette is the most important thing in my
life. She is _an_ important thing, but to put 'most' on it seems wrong
somehow. Talk about pressure on the poor kid! :)
Can we say, "One of the most important things in my life?" Why would a kid
feel pressure knowing that sie was one of the most important things in sie
m*m's life? I would think that knowing this would make sie feel secure. I
sure would've liked to have known that feeling.
So, I can relate to what you are saying in general. I have never had
feelings that other people talk about in relation to things in
general. The t'pists call it 'flat affect' :P~~~ but specifically with
kidlette there is a difference that I can't explain.
So, what you're saying is: that you didn't feel much of anything either
until you got married and got pr*gnant and had a b*by. How wonderful. I
envy that.
Yeah, like this helps :/
It helps knowing that ppl have experienced the 'flat affect', and sometimes
can get over it with specific happenings. Thanks.
Nahanton
RC
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The colors blend, the edges soften. Swirling and mixing
we are becoming white light.
ji...@tuells.org
anon-...@anon.twwells.com
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Nahanton" <naha...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010415135145...@ng-ci1.aol.com...
Nahanton
could've been different for us all......I don't blame you for hating it.....it
s*cks.
Nahanton
Macademia
What a useful term.
This conversation just melted into a topsy-tuvy thing.
My m*m (who I think is DID like I am; ego states, etc.) spaces big time.
I can tell her something heartbreaking and she reacts as I told her the
placemat was upside down. And I have always (? least the last year)
visualized it like a topographic map that is one depth. (It measure
emotional responses. So for my m*m it's all the same importance be it
the floor or manners or my feelings, while for many people the height
fluctuates.) And that's what flatness is, no volume or height
variation. Maybe it's the same.
Macademia
M*ther and Child
Itchy wrote:
>
> From RC via Nahanton and 14 :)
<snip>
Macademia
Nahanton wrote:
>
> >Subject: Re: Forgot what the thread was called
> >From: Macademia jkt...@pobox.com
> >Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 4:02 PM
> >Message-id: <3ADB4FDB...@pobox.com>
> >
> Hi Macademia,
>
> >Um, I don't know how much I can say on this 'cause it's upsetting. But
> >neither of your posts are foreign to me. Not the same as me but not
> >foreign.
>
> I hope not too upsetting. It was bothering me a lot, and I thought I'd write
> and find out if (what seemed to me) everyone had feelings of l*ve for the kids,
> SO's, relatives, etc.
Not too upsetting. I am very glad you wrote about it.
It helps me understand myself better. It's an "issue" as they say these
days. I realized from you and John D's post that part of me is
uncomfortable to be "close" to my kid.
And I feel a lot better knowing I'm not alone.
> >
> >Um, sometimes I play with my child and feel really good and really
> >present.
> >
> >A lot of the time I am not there. I cry a lot over how he doesn't have a
> >normal m*m. I feel inadequate 'cause twenty years from now I may want to
> >have "been" present with my guy. And cry 'cause he deserves more than a
> >hollow shell for a m*m.
>
> When my kids were little, I used to go into their rooms after they were asleep,
> and promise to be a better m*ther the next day. I felt too, that they deserved
> so much more than I was able to give.
Me too. I go up to his room and cry silently while I look at him and
snuggle a hand or a foot, something that won't wake him up.
Macademia
ej
Thanks, but it's not so much compared to so many. No real
*b*s* as far as I know. But sometimes I think, "Nothing
happened to me... and it happened in spades!" Then I think,
"It was, after all, nothing. No big deal."
ej
Nancewt
>my idea of a good parent was someone who didn't interfere
>with hir kids (except for things like safety reasons or when they
>were being mean).
I think there is a lot of evidence that this is a very good parenting style (of
course I'm biased due to my own childhood issues :)
There were some studies done on children raised in orphanages years ago, and
they found that the kids from the well-run orphanages all turned out to be
exceptionally well-adjusted adults with a high quality of life (I'm not sure
how exactly this was measured, though). The people who did the studies, based
on what they found, believed that the reason these people all did so well was
that the adults raising them did not interfere, weren't intrusive, didn't
pressure them, didn't have needs or expectations of them, and basically left
them alone when they weren't taking care of their needs. I think this is cool.
It sounds like the perfect childhood for me.
> i
>don't care what my perps did, i only care how they act now. i
>think it's bc i'm not angry or hurt. but maybe it's something
>else.
I feel this way, too. I've gone months without any contact with them, and I've
gone through periods of time when I had frequent contact. I really don't care
one way or the other. If they need me for something, like helping take care of
my sister when she's been sick, I see a lot of them. Otherwise I don't. Either
is ok. My T has a very hard time understanding this. She seems to feel that
since I do feel rage at times (like at work when the front desk staff didn't
respond to my emergency call), this must in some way relate to my contact with
family triggering off past feelings. I don't think so. I think that rage has
become a part of my body due to being in such a state of hyper-arousal for so
many years (and this is supposed to be part of PTSD, the body ends up having
too little cortisol to regulate arousal because chronic trauma leads to the
creation of too many cortisol receptors, so people end up either hyper-aroused
or numb or vacillating between the two extremes), but she ignores all of this
information because she cannot believe that I truly don't have a lot of emotion
for my family. I think this is just the way I am. I agree that a lot of
feelings can interfere with functioning. T's are taught that feelings are
intrinsically good. I think this is not necessarily true. And I think that as
far as raising kids goes, actions probably are more important to the kid than
feelings. -Nancy
Nancewt
>I have this vision of the perfect house
>for me if I were part of a couple. He would have his area
>and I would have my area. In the middle would be a common
>area. Each of us would have walls that we could close
>between our personal space and our shared space.
This is my idea of a perfect relationship. Unfortunately, I haven't found
anyone who wants to live like this. Oh, well. It makes me feel less weird to
know I'm not the only one who would like something like this :)
>> >I think for kids it's more important that we *do* the right
>> >stuff than that we feel a certain way. Often with my
>> >daughter I found myself in a position of telling her stuff
>> >that I wasn't sure I believed because I thought it was what
>> >she needed to believe.
I agree with this. Actions are more important than feelings, imo. I think it
sounds like all of the people responding to this post are really good mothers.
You all do what you need to do for your kids, you didn't ab*ndon them, you
didn't ab*se them, you said and did all the things you thought would be good
for them, you obviously cared enough to put a lot of thought into trying to do
the right thing. Whether or not you feel what you think "l*ve" should feel like
is not as important, imo. -Nancy
Ellen
feelings . When I do, I just start to cry and cry because I am not used
to feeling that powerful emotion.
I know that I can't feel that love most times because I have a lot of
alters who are not the mother of my 3 children. I wasn't even ther for
their births. I have some memory of it but only because I was given the
memory from inside. I do have an alter who has chosen to be the loving
and caring mother of our oldest daughter but she is not the mother of
our younger two kids.
I know the feeling of pretenting to be a parent. I have had to depend
on that for my kids entire lives. We do love them so I know that my
kids felt love coming from us as they grew up. They know it now.
It is the same for my husband. It is rare that I can feel the love I
have for him, let alone express it to him. Luckily <g> for me he is
typically male and has a hard time telling me or showing me that he
loves me, so we are kind of even.
I am making a huge assumption here but I always thought that as I
processed the old memories and my feelings about them that I would be
able to deal with my strong emotions in the here and now much more
fully. I am hoping that my assumption is correct.
I always felt like I was alone in my world of pretend. I am sorry to
find that I am not alone but I am also relieved to see that I am not
alone in it .
Ellen
Nahanton
>Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 10:00 PM
>Message-id: <3ADB968D...@austin.rr.com>
>
>Nahanton,
>
ej,
I'm not a T.....far from it, but what you describe, sounds like ab*se to _me_.
I think it's wrong to compare "how much." Ab*se is ab*se!!
Nahanton
Macademia
I agree with Nahanton.
Adding that it seems to me that comparing is an excercize for the
glasses being worn. The subject is subjective, your answer dependent on
your own assumptions about yourself. You sound very inclined to
criticize yourself, which would translate into "not so much."
I believe in many ways emotional ab*se is far worse as it is insidious,
burying itself deeply in our psyches so we cannot always follow its
trail.
When it's "not so much" too it keeps the pain more buried, farther away,
less real. In some ways I guess it's safer or helpful for that reason.
I often do "not so much" myself. So some of what I say I believe about
myself and share in case it might be helpful to you. Sometimes I think
of the words of what I remember happening, and they're not really a big
deal, they're simply what happened between two living organisms. I tend
to go really big picture, text-book like quality when I do that, as if
it were another species planets away. And in that context it isn't a big
deal.
Macademia
Nahanton
>Date: Tue, Apr 17, 2001 12:33 AM
>Message-id: <19929-3AD...@storefull-626.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
>
Hi Ellen.....
>I know how much I love my children but I can rarely get in touch with my
>feelings . When I do, I just start to cry and cry because I am not used
>to feeling that powerful emotion.
I think it's great that you know that feeling... even rarely. Crying is
another thing I can't do outwardly. Mostly, I just feel a fleeting sadness,
and then it's gone. I'm sort of glad that I don't cry. It would make me
uncomfortable and embarrassed, but I know that I'm perceived as peculiar
because of this inability.
>I know that I can't feel that love most times because I have a lot of
>alters who are not the mother of my 3 children. I wasn't even ther for
>their births. I have some memory of it but only because I was given the
>memory from inside. I do have an alter who has chosen to be the loving
>and caring mother of our oldest daughter but she is not the mother of
>our younger two kids.
>I know the feeling of pretenting to be a parent. I have had to depend
>on that for my kids entire lives. We do love them so I know that my
>kids felt love coming from us as they grew up. They know it now.
>It is the same for my husband. It is rare that I can feel the love I
>have for him, let alone express it to him. Luckily <g> for me he is
>typically male and has a hard time telling me or showing me that he
>loves me, so we are kind of even.
So, I think what you're saying is, that sometimes you have to pretend to feel
l*ving, and other times you actually experience it. That would be a giant step
for me.
>I am making a huge assumption here but I always thought that as I
>processed the old memories and my feelings about them that I would be
>able to deal with my strong emotions in the here and now much more
>fully. I am hoping that my assumption is correct.
I am hoping that your assumption is correct too, Ellen. It seems to me that
this is what thrpy is supposed to help you with.
>I always felt like I was alone in my world of pretend. I am sorry to
>find that I am not alone but I am also relieved to see that I am not
>alone in it .
I'm very relieved too. I'm glad now that I started this thread, because the
feedback has been great, and I don't have that sense of isolation I had before.
Thanks for writing,
Nahanton
>
>Ellen
Nahanton
>Date: Tue, Apr 17, 2001 12:34 AM
>Message-id: <j0hndtc384ealmq4t...@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
Hi e......I'm just going to answer this for myself. If Macademia wants to
respond, I think I should leave that up to her.
>
>Nahanton wrote:
>
>>When my kids were little, I used to go into their rooms after they were
>asleep,
>>and promise to be a better m*ther the next day. I felt too, that they
>deserved
>>so much more than I was able to give.
>
e wrote:
>now i'm really lost. (don't worry. i enjoy it. i hate knowing
>where i am or what i'm doing. ;) if this isn't love, what is? if
>this isn't having strong feelings for your kids, what would be?
These are feelings of guilt and inadequacies. I somehow know how to conjure up
strong feeling for that.
>
>i can't imagine crying about my kid or about being an inadequate
>parent or anything. it's not bc i'm a great parent, it's bc i
>wouldn't cry or feel bad about my inadequacies. i wish i were a
>better parent and i do my best. but crying? you're kidding,
>right? ;-)
_I_ don't cry, (that's Macademia) but I've always felt guilty because I thought
that I could do better if only I tried hard enough.
>
>i wouldn't go in my kid's room if sie was asleep, either. what's
>the point? it's guilt-free alone time. yay and whew! iirc i'm
>the one being held up as the example of a loving parent. <g>
>fwiw, i think i am but i think all the ppl whose posts i've read
>are, too. why else would you cry bc you don't think you're doing
>a good enough job or look at your kid when you don't need to or
>stuff like that?
Unfortunately, I spent a _lot_ of time NOT looking at my kids. If I felt that
sense of l*ve that I was trying to describe in other posts, I don't think I
would've dwelled on what was wrong, and would've been able to focus on what was
right.
>>>>
>good luck to everyone. parenting isn't easy for anyone that i
>know. neither is being a kid. ;-)
Very true.
Nahanton
>
>e
Macademia
had to copy it from another place so it's not quoted right.
I never said I didn't feel for my kid; I do space out/numb
out/dissociate when I am with him particularly if I'm moving around
internally (hard to explain other than I am really removed from the
outside world). I l*ve my child more than anything in the world. But
it's like there is this huge divide between him and me sometimes. And I
can't get there. I cry because I want to very much but some days can't
do it. Not without giving myself seemingly inordinate amount of time.
For me it's about accepting where I am and acknowledging it (it being
lots and lots of stuff).
The "space-out, space-out" thing is actually suspposed to be quite
animated so I hear him. I think he goes "M*ma, m*ma!" and I am too out
of it for it to hit my radar screen. If he were in any physical danger,
I think I would notice (sheesh, better) but I do tune out his voice and
not hear things even if I am four feet from him. I'll think about the
hugging thing. That would be nice, but I don't want him to think he is
supposed to nurture me for goodness' sake. I try to be fairly aware of
the boundaries on that as much as I can. <sigh>
Macademia
Nahanton wrote:
>Macademia wrote:
snip
>>[S]ometimes I play with my child and feel really good and really
>>present.
>>A lot of the time I am not there. I cry a lot over how he doesn't have a
>>normal m*m. I feel inadequate 'cause twenty years from now I may want to
>>have "been" present with my guy. And cry 'cause he deserves more than a
>>hollow shell for a m*m.
>
>When my kids were little, I used to go into their rooms after they were asleep,
>and promise to be a better m*ther the next day. I felt too, that they deserved
>so much more than I was able to give.
now i'm really lost. (don't worry. i enjoy it. i hate knowing
where i am or what i'm doing. ;) if this isn't love, what is? if
this isn't having strong feelings for your kids, what would be?
i can't imagine crying about my kid or about being an inadequate
parent or anything. it's not bc i'm a great parent, it's bc i
wouldn't cry or feel bad about my inadequacies. i wish i were a
better parent and i do my best. but crying? you're kidding,
right? ;-)
i wouldn't go in my kid's room if sie was asleep, either. what's
the point? it's guilt-free alone time. yay and whew! iirc i'm
the one being held up as the example of a loving parent. <g>
fwiw, i think i am but i think all the ppl whose posts i've read
are, too. why else would you cry bc you don't think you're doing
a good enough job or look at your kid when you don't need to or
stuff like that?
>>
>>Tried to teach him to tell me when I space out really bad. Figure it
>>might be better than him hammering on the patio doors or whatever. He
>>escalates what he does the more spacey I am. Anyhow, I told him to come
>>up to me an shout, "Space out, M*ma, space out!" He hasn't used it yet.
>>Hopefully he will. Hopefully I won't space out so much.
i was wondering if you think this is respectful of you. if you
do, it sounds like a good strategy. :) it's cool that you let
him know that was ok. :)
i was wondering how you'd feel if he did that bc you were out of
it bc of, e.g., epilepsy or some other condition. if saying that
would bother you then (or if he said it to someone else who was
spacing out) maybe you can ask him to rub your shoulder or hug
you (if that's not triggering for you) or hold your hand and ask
you to get a glass of water or soda or something for you (and him
if he wants it). sometimes moving around and drinking something,
esp something cold, helps bring me back to earth. if you're sure
that's where you want to be. ;-)
good luck to everyone. parenting isn't easy for anyone that i
know. neither is being a kid. ;-)
e
Nahanton
>Message-id: <vk3pdt0bt2gmqtn64...@news.rdc1.sdca.home.com>
>
>Nahanton wrote:
>>Hi e.......
I still feel that this inability to feel l*ve and other strong emotions really
bothers me, and I'd really like to do something about it.....but reading so
many posts about this, and seeing that it's a problem for a lot of ppl, somehow
helps.
For this reason, I feel light- hearted at the moment, and have started to crack
up at some of your remarks......which is not an unusual occurence for me when I
read some of your posts.
So, if you'll bear with me:
>
>>
>>e wrote:
>>>now i'm really lost. (don't worry. i enjoy it. i hate knowing
>>>where i am or what i'm doing. ;)
LOL.....This is a profound statement. It actually makes a lot of sense! :)
>>
>what i'm getting at is "why did you focus your feelings of guilt
>and inadequacy on your kids?" i know i can feel guilty and
>inadequate about almost anything. you could have felt bad bc your
>garden wasn't good enough or was too good (e.g., you spent too
>much time or money or wasted water or fertilizer on it), bc you
>weren't successful enough in your job or you were too successful,
>bc you weren't active enough in local politics, bc didn't recycle
>enough (or spent too much time recycling when you should have
>been working on the ozone layer), bc you weren't a good enough
>friend, bc you didn't have enough friends (or had too many
>friends, thus your relationships were too superficial), etc.,
>etc., etc.
Who have you been talking to about me? All of the above apply, and more that
you haven't mentioned yet, or that your informant hasn't told you.
>
>for me, i think it's also that i think many things that bother
>other ppl are NBD (no big deal). i'm pretty easy-going about most
>things. e.g., my SO is really PO'd that our kid lost hir glasses.
>i wish sie hadn't but, fortunately, we can afford another pair so
>it's no biggie to me. i don't like forgetting my kid's name but
>it's not the end of the world if i do and it doesn't mean i'm a
>bad parent. you should see my kid's imitation of me and my bad
>memory. <g>
>
When I was a kid, I used to "lose" or "break" my glasses accidently when I
thought it was time for a new pair and my m*ther didn't.
So you forget your kid's name too? I have two kids, and when they were little,
I at times would call out to one of them, "Little girl, it's time to come home
now." She would respond, "M*m, my name is...........!! I would tell her that
I _knew_ that. At dinnertime, she would say to my now ex-husband, "D*d, she
forgot my name again." To this he would reply, "<Sigh>, she forgets my name
too." Then they would all laugh. I was pretty relieved at the laughter.
Otherwise, I could've added it to that list of yours above. :o)
Thanks for lightening my day, e
Nahanton
>e
ej
Nahanton wrote:
>
> >Subject: Re: Forgot what the thread was called
> >From: ej ejau...@austin.rr.com
> >Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 10:00 PM
> >Message-id: <3ADB968D...@austin.rr.com>
> >
> >Nahanton,
> >
>
> ej,
>
> I'm not a T.....far from it, but what you describe, sounds like ab*se to _me_.
> I think it's wrong to compare "how much." Ab*se is ab*se!!
> Nahanton
Some days, I'm willing to buy "n*gl*ct", but never ab*se. A
therapist once said to me that my depression struck her as
being very similar to the kind of depression seen in infants
who aren't getting the attention they need. (Anaclitic
depression -- is that spelled right?) I've tried to find
more information about it, but have been largely
unsuccessful, other than the failure-to-thrive stuff. Even
so, I don't know of anything that would point to any of the
physical stuff involved in failure-to-thrive.
I do know that I suffered from depression from a very early
age. I remember being depressed when I was 4. One of my
earliest distinct memories. Was it because I was n*gl*cted?
Or did the depression translate to a greater need for more
direct kinds of acknowledgement? There is certainly evidence
that depression is very, very common in my family. I
sometimes wonder if the depression itself was the "trauma"
at the root of my dissociation, assuming one buys the idea
that trauma is a necessary component to the development of
significant dissociation (which I'm not sure I do).
Leaving all that aside, I never had to worry that adults
might come into my room at night or what would happen to me
when they did. My parents spanked me way beyond the age when
I spanked my own child and sometimes for stupid, petty
reasons, but not in a way that was noticeably out of step
with the norm for the time. They never administered any
other kind of physical punishment to the best of my
knowledge. I was always fed and housed and clothed
adequately. If I knew a child who was being raised the way
that I was, I would not think that it was time to call the
c*ps. (Although I might carefully raise some concerns with
the parents if they were friends and I would make an effort
to make sure the child knew that I could really see them.)
I think that n*gl*ct causes harm, but I think it's different
from the harm caused by active ab*se.
Of course, it could simply be denial on my part. *shrug*
ej
Still not enough, but I don't mind so much today.
Nahanton
>Message-id: <3ADCB5AD...@austin.rr.com>
>
>Nahanton,
>
>Nahanton wrote:
>>
>> >Subject: Re: Forgot what the thread was called
>> >From: ej ejau...@austin.rr.com
>> >Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 10:00 PM
>> >Message-id: <3ADB968D...@austin.rr.com>
>> >
correct about, or that you don't want to hear, but IMO, there is physical
ab*se, emotional ab*se, and s*xu*l abuse. They all together or alone can cause
a lot of problems. From your description, even though I admit to being
thoroughly a novice, it sounds as if you were a victim of emotional ab*se.
That can be pretty devastating and, I believe, can cause all kinds of problems.
One, namely being: depression. Just my opinion, though, I don't want to come
off as an "authority," which I'm certainly not.
Nahanton
ej
Macademia wrote:
>
> Hi ej,
>
> I agree with Nahanton.
>
> Adding that it seems to me that comparing is an excercize for the
> glasses being worn. The subject is subjective, your answer dependent on
I agree with this. Sometimes people will say to me, "What
you've been through make my problems sound so small."
Generally I tell them, "Pain is pain. My pain doesn't make
yours less real." When I'm the one *saying* it, I believe
it. Not so good from the other side, though, I guess.
> your own assumptions about yourself. You sound very inclined to
> criticize yourself, which would translate into "not so much."
>
> I believe in many ways emotional ab*se is far worse as it is insidious,
> burying itself deeply in our psyches so we cannot always follow its
> trail.
>
> When it's "not so much" too it keeps the pain more buried, farther away,
> less real. In some ways I guess it's safer or helpful for that reason.
I think there may be some truth to this. It's difficult to
find someplace I can point to and say, "There -- it hurts
right there."
>
> I often do "not so much" myself. So some of what I say I believe about
> myself and share in case it might be helpful to you. Sometimes I think
> of the words of what I remember happening, and they're not really a big
> deal, they're simply what happened between two living organisms. I tend
> to go really big picture, text-book like quality when I do that, as if
> it were another species planets away. And in that context it isn't a big
> deal.
>
> Macademia
Yeah, minimizing can be a great way to keep things at a
distance. *sigh*
ej
ej
Nahanton,
> I'm certainly not going try to convince you of something that I might not be
> correct about, or that you don't want to hear, but IMO, there is physical
I understand and I don't think you're trying to push me into
agreeing with you, so I'm okay with you sharing how you
understand things. I still see a difference between ab*se
and n*gl*ct. I think ab*se is active and n*gl*ct is passive.
I think both are damaging.
N*gl*ct can be a harder thing to identify. I have a
daughter. Sometimes she used to tell people, "I practically
raised myself." Once when she said it to a t, I said,
"That's not true. That was never true." She said, "Well, you
didn't make any rules for me." I said, "That's not true.
That was never true." We've talked about it from time to
time. One time she told me that when she was like 10 or 11,
her friends all seemed to fight with their parents a lot,
but we didn't fight very much, so it seemed to her like I
wasn't doing much parenting. From my point of view, at that
time I knew most of her friends and most of their parents
and they were all pretty much okay, so there weren't a lot
of things that she wanted to do that I felt like I needed to
say "no" to. I said to her, "So you felt neglected because I
didn't yell at you enough?" And she said, "Yes."
She also gave a t an example once when I was there. She
said, "I remember once when M*m came home from work that she
told me that I was really tired and I would have to take
care of my own supper. I ended up eating over at a friend's
house." (I don't remember that happening, but I don't doubt
that it did.) The t said, "How old were you?" The daughter
said, "About 10... but she never taught me how to cook."
(Not accurate, but I let it go.) The t said, "Was there food
in the house to eat? Cereal or sandwiches or something?"
Daughter said, "Well... yes." The t said, "That's *not*
ab*se."
But evidently both of these things *felt* n*gl*ctful to my
daughter. And I suspect her internal response was probably
the same as if it *were*. Now she's 18, nearly 19. She's
starting to gain some perspective on some of this stuff, but
when she was building her internal self, her perception was
that she was being n*gl*cted and I think her internal
structure reflects that. She has a lot of struggles.
I think I probably didn't get everything I would have gotten
in an ideal world when I was a kid. Probably I didn't get
enough for me. I don't know that it's my p*rent's fault. I
don't know that it's *anyone's* fault.
Many of my siblings have struggles, too, but not all of
them. And I don't see any pattern to who does and who
doesn't. Some but not all of the boys. Some but not all of
the girls. Some but not all of the older ones. Some but not
all of the younger ones. (A higher proportion of the younger
ones, though.) No pattern that I can identify. In my mind,
this tends to reinforce my belief that a big chunk of this
is more related to heredity than to the environment. (But I
know that I tend to see things that confirm my world view
more readily than I see things that contradict it. As most
people do.)
ej
Nancewt
>how do you deal with your rage or the problems it can
>create? do you (or others) know of any research about how ppl can
>deal with the problem? any meds, therapy techniques or other
>things (e.g., exercise) that help some ppl? thanks in advance for
>any information.
In studies I've heard of or read on treating rage and hyper-arousal related to
PTSD, the things that have been found to help for some people are exercise,
various types of body-work (the theory being that since the rage is related to
a phsyiological change in the body, body-work is necessary to heal it), talking
with the purpose of catharsis, and writing and art work. I have found all of
these to be helpful at different times. For the most part, the solitary ones
are better for me, i.e., exercise and writing. My t does do some forms of
body-work- after seeing her for several years and actually developing some
trust (weird!), I started letting her do some massage of the pressure points,
mostly in the feet, and this does relax me and help me feel less rage, or less
controlled by rage. Being outside a lot tends to reduce my over-all level of
rage, too. With situations where there is serious injustice or danger, though,
I need to feel that I am actively doing something about the issue in order to
feel in control of the rage. Some studies also indicate that the mood
stabilizers, like Depakote and Neurontin, can help with feelings of rage and
hyper-arousal. Some doctors also prescribe Risperdal, anti-anxiety meds like
Ativan, and SSRI's for this purpose. -Nancy
Mosaics
I was thinking that the newness to off-label scripting of Neurontin would
make any claims to it being a mood stabilizer highly suspect. The studies
I've read on its use as a mood stabilizer were anedoctal not science.
Sierra of TN
Nancewt wrote in response:
Safarigrl
a couple of comments
see below
> > Nahanton wrote:
> > >My T says that it wasn't safe to feel, so
> > >that I numbed out. That made sense, but so far I haven't read about
anyone
> > >here who has had this problem regarding the ppl closest to them:
children,
> > >SOS, friends, p*rents, etc.
> >
> > I have great difficulty feeling any sense of attachment or dependency on
people
> > in general.
I too have difficulties in feeling a real sense of
attachment to people. I have 2 brothers who I am
not close with. I think it has a lot to do with the
fact I have no real memories of them as a child. So
I don't feel that family bond. As for friends well
I have always been the strong one, the one that
held everything together. So it would be what
you call a one-sided friendship. What is sad is
I know several of my very close friends would be
there for me-- but I wasn't able to let them see
my pain. It has only been in the last year I have
been able to open up to them more and let them
see more of "me" -- in which has created a bond
that wasn't there. However, it is something I have
to consciously work on. As for SO..well I don't
necessarily choose the healthiest people in that
department. So there has always been a great
sense of detachment in those type of relationships.
> I have friendships that I think are intimate, but I can go
> long periods without having any contact with someone who is
> a good friend and it doesn't bother me.
I still do this and most of those really close to me
have come to accept that this is a part of who I am.
It doesn't reflect on my caring about them or anything-
it just is something about me. It has also played
a role in any relationships I have had. I always choose
a partner that is about as anti-social as I am. I am
highly independent and I don't like having to always
include others in my life. Which if you choose someone
similiar to yourself it makes it really hard to form
a good relationship. I even have problems with my
T sometimes. I just sometimes don't want to be
bothered with therapy. Which she then freaks and
starts calling, wanting to know if I am okay etc. I find
it annoying. I know that is a good sign to know
she cares, but to me-- it is just annoying having to
answer to someone. It is like "just leave me alone--
I am okay..I just don't have anything to say."
>Of all my siblings (there are 8 of
> us), I think there are only 2 brothers who have an
> attachment to each other. Interestingly, they are the 2 that
> I like the least because I think they are kind of mean.
I think this is interesting as I have noticed in my
own foo that after the de*th of my mother-- it
was like any common bond between us was gone.
My two brothers aren't close to each other and I
am not all that close with them. I know it has a lot
to do with the dysfunction of my family. We didn't
talk about things, if you tried-- it was all swept under
the rug. The rule in our house was don't talk about
anything of importance or our feelings. Which as
we have grown up == we have become strangers
to each other. I couldn't tell you anything really
personal about my brothers or could they about me.
It is hard to form a bond with someone that is
more a stranger then anything else.
safari
ej
Way at the end...
Several years ago, I answered the phone one evening and a
vaguely-familiar voice said, "Hi, this is K____ J___." I
thought, "K____ J____, K____ J____... sounds familiar... Oh!
***K____***!!!" It took me a minute to place the name. He is
one of my brothers! He had never before in my entire life
called me on the phone. And he's never called me since,
either. It was one of those moments that made me realize
(again) that my family relationships seem to be different
from those of most people. Interesting that he gave me his
full name.
ej
Macademia
Some days I feel in the present and a "m*m". Those days I feel good and
feel good about being a m*m. Then there are days I go to space out land,
wobbly inside, can barely get food out for my kid, and cannot respond to
his needs. (Two year old kids are by definition very needy, imo.) That
neediness competes with my own neediness (which I think is higher than
"normal"). So on those days I put my kid in daycare so I can go be needy
without being a poor parent.
And when the day is done and he goes to sleep I can finally process
enough to realize how short I fall. The knowledge of when I am doing
"normal" is like a window into what I "could" be like if I were a
"normal" functioning person. And that makes me very sad because I fall
so incredibly short of that. It's kind of like when Alg*rnon (e) loses
his intelligence at the end of the book Fl*wers for Alg*rnon. It's a
view into two worlds, two ways of being.
Macademia
Macademia
> >wobbly inside, can barely get food out for my kid, and cannot respond to
> >his needs.
>
> like you are responding to his basic needs. IMO a good parent
> doesn't need to be there every time a kid wants a hug or scrapes
> his knee. i think it's ok as long as you or someone else is there
> on a reasonably consistent basis for the "big" things (like a
> knee scrape for a two year old) and are there fairly often (e.g.,
> many times a day for hugs or cuddling) for things like hugs or
> reading to him. but that's just my opinion and you know what free
> advice is worth. ;-)
I don't disagree. I simply (luckily) have the option to have my kid
somewhere else when I am unable to respond. I feel sad about that, but I
also feel proud that I can say, "I can't do this" because it is really
hard to say and to acknowledge. And I think as most of us know taking
care of ourselves is really hard, but that's what I am doing. (I am
doing it mostly for the kid mind you, so I can be a better parent. ;)
Similar to what you say later.
<snip>
> >That neediness competes with my own neediness (which I think is higher than
> >"normal"). So on those days I put my kid in daycare so I can go be needy
> >without being a poor parent.
>
> sounds like a good plan. :)
>
> how do you think your "neediness" compares with the "neediness"
> of a parent who works full time if you consider hir job to be one
> of hir needs? how do you think it compares to the "neediness" of
> child care workers if you consider all the aspects of hir job as
> well as hir own personal needs as needs?
I don't know.
> maybe it's bc i worked when my kid was little and knew other
> parents who did, too but it's never seemed to me that i was much
> more out of it since my back injury/psychotherapy trip to h*ll
> than a parent who worked 70 hours a week. in fact, i think i pay
> much more attention to my kid and know hir better than many
> parents i know.
I bet you do. :) It sounds really nice the relationship you have with
your kid. I like reading about it.
> research shows that kids of parents who work full time outside
> the home turn out just as well as kids of parents who don't.
Did you see the latest study released today? Something about daycare
connected with aggressive kids. I think these studies are stoopid as you
would spell, so I don't give it much thought, but I found it funny that
it was released today.
> so
> when dissy or disabled parents question their parenting
> abilities, i wonder if they're comparing themselves to other RL
> parents or some golden, imaginary yardstick that very few ppl
> would measure up on.
For me it's really about this internal one where I compare days I feel
free of my junk and days when I am burdened/weighed down by it. The two
are radically different.
I am proud of many things in how I parent. I am also sad about some. I
wish I could be more for my kid.
I think too, this isn't very nice, but part of me (ego state LJ) doesn't
want to be a parent and doesn't like the kid very much. But she played
with the kid in the dollhouse and it was okay. Kinda worried about that
'cause I do want to make sure the boundaries etc. are good between us
all. But I also want that part to realize the kid is a good thing, not
someone to compete with. (sad about that)
> >And when the day is done and he goes to sleep I can finally process
> >enough to realize how short I fall. The knowledge of when I am doing
> >"normal" is like a window into what I "could" be like if I were a
> >"normal" functioning person.
>
> "normal" ppl have good and bad days, too. and days when they're
> very busy with work, their marriage, their friends, their hobbies
> (e.g., sports, gardening) or other concerns and days when they
> pay a lot of attention to their kids.
>
> >And that makes me very sad because I fall
> >so incredibly short of that. It's kind of like when Alg*rnon (e) loses
> >his intelligence at the end of the book Fl*wers for Alg*rnon. It's a
> >view into two worlds, two ways of being.
>
> yeah, i feel that way since therapy and esp since some meds
> screwed up my brain bc now i am a dumb f*ck space cadet b*tch.
Those are the strongest descriptive words I have heard you use.
You never sound like any of that on here. You sound very determined,
very intelligent and perceptive, and rather stubborn. (I know you didn't
ask.)
> but i don't think it's good for my kid to see my beat up on
> myself or sink into despair about it. i'm hir role model and
> sie's very likely to treat hirself like i treat me. so i try to
> treat myself well and with concern and respect for hir sake if
> not for mine.
Yes. Very good point. Wallowing is never particularly effective (least
if you're interested in being somewhere else.)
<snip>
> >>I do space out/numb
> >> out/dissociate when I am with him particularly if I'm moving around
> >> internally (hard to explain other than I am really removed from the
> >> outside world).
>
> i get that. one of my ways of describing myself and other
> ppl/things has always (since i can remember) been near/far/in
> between.
That's like S*same St*eet! :) I like that.
> >>I l*ve my child more than anything in the world. But
> >> it's like there is this huge divide between him and me sometimes. And I
> >> can't get there.
>
> bc you want to be close all the time or at that time or what?
> fwiw, i think it's good for kids and parents to *sometimes* be
> mentally/emotionally/psychologically far from each other. even
> babies if you can swing it.
Yes, I agree completely. I am not interested in having him be completely
dependent on me or for him to be indistinct from me. I like us being
separate. I am thankful for daycare for several reasons, not least of
which it helps reinforce that "separation." (It's also been great for
his social skills and all that. And a broader perspective; he goes to an
in-home situation so he's nearly part of the family who is very
different "culturally" from us. Most notably they're a large family
while we're very small. :)
> >> The "space-out, space-out" thing is actually suspposed to be quite
> >> animated so I hear him. I think he goes "M*ma, m*ma!" and I am too out
> >> of it for it to hit my radar screen. If he were in any physical danger,
> >> I think I would notice (sheesh, better)
>
> have you so far?
Yup. I am thankful for fences, gates, etc. :)
> >>but I do tune out his voice and not hear things even if I am four feet from him.
>
> my bro often tuned out his three kids, e.g., who were within two
> feet of him *and* very loud and hyperactive with noisy toys, all
> within the living room of a very small trailer. i've seen him
> tune out more kids and noise when the kids' friends visited. i
> was jealous of how well he could do that.
>
> last time i saw him he was only tuning out two kids, one of them
> very hyperactive and noisy, the other a 14 month old who was
> revved up by the hyperactive 6 yo and yelling loudly, both within
> a couple of feet of him. the kids seemed ok to me, although i
> think he should have change the 14 month old's diaper and put hir
> to sleep. (i did the former and his SO did the latter when sie
> got home from work.) i've seen lots of other parents (generally
> but not always male) do similar things and they weren't even
> dissy. or what about parents who are working while they're
> "watching" the kids? or parents who fall asleep while they're
> "watching" the kids? or on the phone? etc.
Yup.
>
> >>I'll think about the
> >> hugging thing. That would be nice, but I don't want him to think he is
> >> supposed to nurture me for goodness' sake. I try to be fairly aware of
> >> the boundaries on that as much as I can. <sigh>
>
> i don't see the difference between hugging you and yelling "space
> out, Mama, space out" in terms of boundaries. if you're worried
> about him taking care of you, the two seem equivalent to me. IMO
> they differ in how he's taking care of you, not whether he is.
> fwiw, i think it's ok for kids to learn to help their parents. i
> think that's how good families work: ppl help each other but do
> it in ways that are appropriate for each person's age and skills.
Wow. that's a new concept. Thank you. (digest, digest, digest for
awhile)
> i think this is your call and if you're comfortable with "space
> out, Mama," it's fine for him to do that. <snip>
Yes, it isn't rude to me, just unique and loud enough to help me snap
back as it were.
> my concern is that *if* you don't, you're teaching him that it's
> ok to be disrespectful of you and women. and, to the extent that
> he identifies with you (and my guess would be that it's a lot),
> to be disrespectful to himself. <snip>
Yeah, those kinds of things are usually learned much more quietly, much
more indirectly ime. And what you say is so important.
I've been thinking too about what you said about why focusing on kids
when feeling down on oneself. Part of it is there's b*ating yourself up
about something which is different than what I've been talking about.
It's not some excercize in feeling sorry for myself or wallowing. (Not
saying you were implying that but wanting to make a distinction.)
There's also another part niggling around for me. Not sure exactly how
it fits together, but the whole becoming a parent thing raised the
stakes somehow. Unlike pretty much anything else in my life where I've
only done things half-*ssedly, I really tried to do the best I could for
the birth and for the first year of life. Too much probably. But it was
something that was really important to me. I've cried about it once
feeling I did all that because I'd fall so short in the other. But maybe
that is one of those subjective, irrational wardrobes I've adopted for
unseen reasons. I don't know. But still thinking/processing/chewing on
it.
Maybe by wanting to do something the best I could, I had to face up to
some of my past that I spent (still spend) lots of time denying. In
denial, you still lose so much energy. I don't know.
Macademia
Nancewt
>Several years ago, I answered the phone one evening and a
>vaguely-familiar voice said, "Hi, this is K____ J___." I
>thought, "K____ J____, K____ J____... sounds familiar... Oh!
>***K____***!!!" It took me a minute to place the name. He is
>one of my brothers! He had never before in my entire life
>called me on the phone. And he's never called me since,
>either. It was one of those moments that made me realize
>(again) that my family relationships seem to be different
>from those of most people. Interesting that he gave me his
>full name.
>
>ej
>
myself by my full name, and even then, she is sometimes confused. She also
doesn't recognize me when she sees me "out of context", i.e., anywhere other
than her apartment. I always forget that everyone isn't like this, and then
I'm reminded on the occasions that a friend of mine is with me when I see my
m*ther and is shocked that she doesn't recognize me (and she is only 49 years
old and doesn't have any diagnosed physical condition that would cause this-
it's just the way she is). I think it's funny how you can get so used to
something, and then periodically be reminded that the whole world isn't like
this. -Nancy
Safarigrl
I had to kind of chuckle at your story-- as I have
one brother who is also very formal when he calls.
We talk occasionally on the phone. If I am not at
home and leaves a VM, he will say this is S-- H----,
your brother. I get those messages and go-- well
DUH? I am forgetful but NOT that forgetful. :)
Safari
"ej" <ejau...@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:3ADE4DCF...@austin.rr.com...
Beauty
over the boundary toward pathology). My father used to say, when he had called me
and I had answered, "Hi, this is, uh, your D*ddy." Or occasionally, "Hi, this is X
. . . Y . . . (full name)" - though the latter would often be reserved for
messages left on the machine. Still the "D*ddy" thing could also occur on tape.
Similarly, and tragically, at my fthrs final visitation, my uncle, his only brthr
showed up from out West - the first time we'd seen him in over 20 years - and we
simply didn't recognize him when he addressed us by name. Instead of just - like
everyone else whom I hadn't seen in forever and didn't immediately recognize -
coming up and saying, "I'm your cousin so and so," and maybe even offering a hug -
he just immediately stuck out his hand in a kind of pitiful way and said, "Q...
Y... (full name)." It was so very, very sad - that he would feel that he would
have to say that to me instead of "I'm your uncle Q." One of my earliest and most
ecstatic and important memories involves him putting me atop my first horse (a very
important horse, in national terms, as it happens - another story, not to be told
here) at age three and teaching me to guide him through the barrels (while my mthr
had kittens watching - because Q let me do it on my own - but he knew that he could
trust the horse completely). And then - oh, never look back from horses (even
though we have so seldom actually been free on the back of a horse in all our days
- so seldom in relation to our immense desire).
That's all -
Beauty.
Beauty
l*ve often works itself out in actions, and someone doing it might not necessarily
have inner feelings that they would "feel" as "l*ve." So where you feel a gap, and
feel, if I am correct, a certain amount of uncomfortability about that gap, maybe I
would look at you and never once for a moment call your relationship w/your
children by any other name than "l*ve." But then, maybe I'm just dense.
Beauty.
Nahanton wrote:
> >Subject: Re: Forgot what the thread was called
> >From: Beauty dabl...@pioneeris.net
> >Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 11:48 PM
> >Message-id: <3ADA6B87...@pioneeris.net>
> >
> Hi Beauty, thanks for your response, please scroll:
>
> >Okay, Nahanton, let me correct what I think are a few misimpressions about
> >what
> >*I*, at least feel. Yes, my son is incredibly important to me - and yes
> >I adore
> >him - there is no other word. I will not deny that I might have written
> >at some
> >point that my son is the most important thing to me - maybe I did. But
> >I am not
> >sure that I would put it that way. I think I might say that I care about
> >him more
> >than anything else - even that I care about him more even than I care about
> >my own
> >life. To me that's a shade different. The one has to do more with evaluative
> >judgement, or something, and the other has to do with affect. But, see,
> >this
> >doesn't mean that I don't often forget to give him a proper supper because
> >I get
> >involved in reading or writing - or sleeping. It doesn't mean that I don't
> >have
> >other things that matter to me. And - most importantly - it doesn't mean
> >that I am
> >always emotionally connected with him. Certainly, certainly I am not always
> >emotionally connected w/my husband - I find those closest to me to be the
> >most
> >difficult to feel connected with emotionally. So if you are feeling as
> >if that is
> >a solitary problem for you, please be advised that you have company! As
> >for the
> >feelings side of things, I suspect that e will have a take on this question,
> >too.
>
> I thank you for the time you spent answering my post. I found what you had to
> say interesting. I do think my point was, that is seemed to me that you and
> many others here feel strong l*ve for their children or others, despite
> problems such as DID, or other MH disabilities. I've always felt a large "gap"
> where this "love" thingy is supposed to fit.
> Nahanton
Beauty
How does he seem? Healthy, happy? That's what others point out to me when I get to worrying (as I do)
about the effects of my condition and behavior on my son. And, in fact, to me at least, he looks
wonderful. Happy, functional, achieving, able to idle, polite but able to "be cool" with his friends,
etc. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, as they say - if he's turning out okay, you've done
something right.
Beauty.
Macademia wrote:
> Um, I don't know how much I can say on this 'cause it's upsetting. But
> neither of your posts are foreign to me. Not the same as me but not
> foreign.
>
> Um, sometimes I play with my child and feel really good and really
> present.
>
> A lot of the time I am not there. I cry a lot over how he doesn't have a
> normal m*m. I feel inadequate 'cause twenty years from now I may want to
> have "been" present with my guy. And cry 'cause he deserves more than a
> hollow shell for a m*m.
>
> Tried to teach him to tell me when I space out really bad. Figure it
> might be better than him hammering on the patio doors or whatever. He
> escalates what he does the more spacey I am. Anyhow, I told him to come
> up to me an shout, "Space out, M*ma, space out!" He hasn't used it yet.
> Hopefully he will. Hopefully I won't space out so much.
>
> Sometimes I worry 'cause he looks like my p*rp. Weird generational
> skipping of Norwegian features (3 removed) and I hope that doesn't get
> worse.
>
> What makes me the saddest is I *don't* want to be a hollow shell with
> him. I know this is precious time, but I cannot do it. I don't know why.
> Makes me very sad. I am glad he has daycare but it makes me so sad. I
> want to be close to him, I want to show him his first bugs, and show him
> about the world. But I can't. <tears>
>
> Not the same but not opposite from you two,
> Macademia
>
> "John D." wrote:
> >
> > Hi Nahanton,
> > I wanted to say you aren't alone. I have two teenage boys, I too was really good with them
> > till the age of about 7. things changed. When I look back, I know I loved them, but was
> > it more of that feeling one gets from holding babies, kittens, puppies? I think I wanted
> > it to be okay, didn't want to be a b*d m*m. I'm not, but I know a lot of what I did was going
> > through the motions, I remember even going numb and not really being there when changing
> > diapers or giving baths. When they got older, I think I was fearful that they were like men in
> > boys bodies (there taller and stronger and sometimes scary to us) they aren't b*d, but they
> > certainly trigger a lot inside of me. And I feel so quilty that I can't just be there for them. I
> > don't think I give them the right love, I don't mean not to, I mean I do really care about them
> > and their furture, but many nights I have to go numb just to give a k*ss goodnight, I always
> > hope they can't tell and of course sometimes we switch and they get a 5 yr old part or
> > something. Sometimes I wonder if I am just really depressed and don't admit it. 10 yrs.
> > ago, I use to be the aunt that played with the nieces and nephrews, now I usually feel as
> > you said. Then I blame myself and say, maybe its pre-menopause stuff. Feelings for me
> > can be all or nothing. meaning when it is all we feel to many things and shut down, switch,
> > go away inside, then go numb.(Good and b*d feelings) Sometimes I have no idea what
> > I am feeling, but can cry for 13 hrs straight and just feel pain, but not sure why. When t's
> > say what are you feeling, I don't know, I get sometimes many voices inside clashing or just
> > static or fear. mmmmm, is fear a feeling? I guess I feel that a lot. Nice to meet you, Sharona
> > "Nahanton" <naha...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20010415135145...@ng-ci1.aol.com...
> > Sorry, not only did I forget what the thread was called, I also can't recall
> > who started it. I *think* it might've been Lil Rabbit posting about her m*m
> > and T transference.
> >
> > A lot of ppl came in to talk about the intensity of feeling that they have for
> > their children. I believe Beauty, e and others, said that their kids are the
> > most important things in their lives (or something like that)
> >
> > I've never experienced feelings like that. I've tried very hard, and read many
> > books about feelings. I feel an enormous sense of responsibility for my kids.
> > When they were young, I was the picture perfect m*m. I did everything just
> > right, but other than the sense of responsibility, I only felt the need to be
> > in my room with the door closed. I've always felt very guilty about this,
> > because I would look around me, and see my friends look at their kids with
> > adoration in their eyes. I did the "pretend" adoration thingy.....but it was
> > never the *real* thing. The best that I could do was "care" about them.
> >
> > My kids are grown now, and I even have some grandchildren. I was hoping and
> > hoping it would be different with them. It's not. I go over to visit, I bring
> > gifts, I listen to how brilliant they are and their latest exploits, with what
> > seems like genuine interest. I even try to play with them, but, I only want to
> > get out of there and go home. The few times that I babysat for them, I again
> > did all the right things, but felt that I was in a nightmare, and was scared to
> > de*th, and wanted to get out of there as quickly as possible.
> >
> > My T and I have been "working" on this lack of feeling for many moons it seems.
> > We start simple like: you like ice cream. See, that's a feeling! Oh,
> > Puhleeze!!!
> >
> > I know about loyalty, responsibility, honesty, and I do know how to "care" I
> > use this word tentatively. I sort of thought that many people with DID had
> > problems with "feelings" as well. My T says that it wasn't safe to feel, so
> > that I numbed out. That made sense, but so far I haven't read about anyone
> > here who has had this problem regarding the ppl closest to them: children,
> > SOS, friends, p*rents, etc.
> >
> > Does anyone know what I'm talking about? This is the first time since I began
> > reading asd that I feel a sense of isolation.....being alone with a problem.
> >
> > Nahanton
Macademia
My hurt comes from selfish reasons only. He's doing great, I think. But
I have missed out on some important stuff, so I am sad for me. But I
haven't been sad much since this was posted. :) We spend more time
together because I am in a better place and he is older and less of a
baby. (Baby's are hard for me.)
Thanks for your observations.
Mac
Beauty
done better. Much better. And you are calling them selfish - though I am not sure that is maybe a fair
estimation of yourself - sometimes it's just hard to let go of hurts, that's all, for maybe mysterious
reasons. Maybe, I don't know, one just feels the need to continue to torment oneself w/one's "mistakes" - I
know I do. Why do I insist on living the past in its worst terms, I wonder? Why do I do that? Does anyone
know?
Beauty.
Beauty
I wish I could see the imitation - if your child is as witty as you are (which I get
the feeling is the case), it must be hysterical. My own child cracks me up
sometimes, and it's the some of the best kind of laughter in the world.
Beauty.
e wrote:
> Nahanton wrote:
> >Hi e......I'm just going to answer this for myself. If Macademia wants to
> >respond, I think I should leave that up to her.
>
> me, too. :)
> >>
> >>Nahanton wrote:
> >>>When my kids were little, I used to go into their rooms after they were
> >>asleep,
> >>>and promise to be a better m*ther the next day. I felt too, that they
> >>deserved
> >>>so much more than I was able to give.
> >>
> >e wrote:
> >>now i'm really lost. (don't worry. i enjoy it. i hate knowing
> >>where i am or what i'm doing. ;) if this isn't love, what is? if
> >>this isn't having strong feelings for your kids, what would be?
> >
> >These are feelings of guilt and inadequacies. I somehow know how to conjure up
> >strong feeling for that.
>
> me, too. i also wanted to add that i understand that you never
> had these "ga-ga" feelings about your kids and that you wish that
> you had and felt guilty about not having them. it's hard for you.
> it sounds like you never had the kind of feelings toward your
> kids that you do for your recently deceased friend (bc you miss
> her and seem upset by her death whereas you said that didn't feel
> that way about your kids) and wish that you could have felt that
> with your kids, too. that sounds hard.
>
> what i'm getting at is "why did you focus your feelings of guilt
> and inadequacy on your kids?" i know i can feel guilty and
> inadequate about almost anything. you could have felt bad bc your
> garden wasn't good enough or was too good (e.g., you spent too
> much time or money or wasted water or fertilizer on it), bc you
> weren't successful enough in your job or you were too successful,
> bc you weren't active enough in local politics, bc didn't recycle
> enough (or spent too much time recycling when you should have
> been working on the ozone layer), bc you weren't a good enough
> friend, bc you didn't have enough friends (or had too many
> friends, thus your relationships were too superficial), etc.,
> etc., etc.
>
> it sounds to me like your kids were very important to you. and
> even though you didn't have the ga-ga feeling about them, it
> sounds to me like you loved them deeply.
>
> but i'm looking from the outside and probably defining love
> differently than you are. i'm not trying to negate what you're
> saying about your subjective experience bc, obviously, you're the
> only one who knows about that.
>
> snip
> >>
> >>i wouldn't go in my kid's room if sie was asleep, either. what's
> >>the point? it's guilt-free alone time. yay and whew! iirc i'm
> >>the one being held up as the example of a loving parent. <g>
> >>fwiw, i think i am but i think all the ppl whose posts i've read
> >>are, too. why else would you cry bc you don't think you're doing
> >>a good enough job or look at your kid when you don't need to or
> >>stuff like that?
> >
> >Unfortunately, I spent a _lot_ of time NOT looking at my kids.
>
> so did many other parents, including me.
>
> >If I felt that
> >sense of l*ve that I was trying to describe in other posts, I don't think I
> >would've dwelled on what was wrong, and would've been able to focus on what was
> >right.
>
> you're probably right about that. i definitely think that feeling
> makes it easier to focus on the positive. i can see why it's so
> important to you.
>
> for me, i think it's also that i think many things that bother
> other ppl are NBD (no big deal). i'm pretty easy-going about most
> things. e.g., my SO is really PO'd that our kid lost hir glasses.
> i wish sie hadn't but, fortunately, we can afford another pair so
> it's no biggie to me. i don't like forgetting my kid's name but
> it's not the end of the world if i do and it doesn't mean i'm a
> bad parent. you should see my kid's imitation of me and my bad
> memory. <g>
>
> e
Beauty
my new cats by one of the d**d cats' names. Or my son by my sister's name, if I've
just gotten off the telephone w/her. On the other hand, about half the time or
more, he calls both his father and me by the name associated w/the opposite gender,
and then either corrects himself or not. So we're often, "Mom, I mean Dad," or
"Dad, I mean Mom." I think that's because we've both been pretty equivalent in
lots of ways in raising him. Or maybe - yikes, yikes, yikes - he's inherited
something swiss-cheesey from me in the memory line.
Beauty.
Beauty
of what you say were significant for me - I mean, when your child is of a very young
age, more pragmatic attention is required, like making sure they get food. Later, you
can say, "Get yourself something to eat." Or - "What would you like to eat?" And if
it's something they can do, you say, "Okay, go take care of it." Or if you feel like
it, you do it. And here's a moral tale: the other night, I was feeling esp.
functional, and I "fed" my son - who is lean and has no hang-ups one way or the other
about food. He kept asking for more food, and I kept feeding him, including, for
once, "good" food like fresh strawberries, fresh carrots, etc. - and guess what? Even
though he kept being "hungry" and actively asking for more food, by bedtime he was ill
from having eaten too much. And I used to feel as if I had neglected him by not
paying more attention to making sure he got enough to eat!!!! So - now I feel almost
as if leaving him alone to work it out is a better idea. You never know. Your idea
of what is needed might turn out not to have been needed at all.
Beauty.
Beauty
in some order of priority, maybe:
1) never, never inculcate any kind of shame, esp. body-shame
2) make absolutely sure he knows he is l*ved intensely and appropriately
(respecting his boundaries)
3) support and celebrate who he is as a person, nurture those special traits who
make him who he is
4) work to shape him into the kind of person I would like to live with, and the
kind of person who contributes to the world in a way consistent with values I hold
dear
5) teach him ways of living in the world such that he both respects and appreciates
(in every sense of the word) other individuals and cultures, and at the same time
respects and has protections for himself
There are probably more things, or more or different ways to say things, but I
thought maybe this distillation would kind of sum up a few of the most important
things. I don't think they are completely inconsonant w/the idea of "leaving him
alone." That is - I don't want to interfere w/his natural integrity in terms of
shame, identity, or boundaries. I do want to give him a foundation in terms of
culture and values, however - and I find that a delight. I think he does, too,
actually.
Much the best -
Beauty.
Nancewt wrote:
> e wrote:
> >my idea of a good parent was someone who didn't interfere
> >with hir kids (except for things like safety reasons or when they
> >were being mean).
>
> I think there is a lot of evidence that this is a very good parenting style (of
> course I'm biased due to my own childhood issues :)
> There were some studies done on children raised in orphanages years ago, and
> they found that the kids from the well-run orphanages all turned out to be
> exceptionally well-adjusted adults with a high quality of life (I'm not sure
> how exactly this was measured, though). The people who did the studies, based
> on what they found, believed that the reason these people all did so well was
> that the adults raising them did not interfere, weren't intrusive, didn't
> pressure them, didn't have needs or expectations of them, and basically left
> them alone when they weren't taking care of their needs. I think this is cool.
> It sounds like the perfect childhood for me.
> > i
> >don't care what my perps did, i only care how they act now. i
> >think it's bc i'm not angry or hurt. but maybe it's something
> >else.
>
> I feel this way, too. I've gone months without any contact with them, and I've
> gone through periods of time when I had frequent contact. I really don't care
> one way or the other. If they need me for something, like helping take care of
> my sister when she's been sick, I see a lot of them. Otherwise I don't. Either
> is ok. My T has a very hard time understanding this. She seems to feel that
> since I do feel rage at times (like at work when the front desk staff didn't
> respond to my emergency call), this must in some way relate to my contact with
> family triggering off past feelings. I don't think so. I think that rage has
> become a part of my body due to being in such a state of hyper-arousal for so
> many years (and this is supposed to be part of PTSD, the body ends up having
> too little cortisol to regulate arousal because chronic trauma leads to the
> creation of too many cortisol receptors, so people end up either hyper-aroused
> or numb or vacillating between the two extremes), but she ignores all of this
> information because she cannot believe that I truly don't have a lot of emotion
> for my family. I think this is just the way I am. I agree that a lot of
> feelings can interfere with functioning. T's are taught that feelings are
> intrinsically good. I think this is not necessarily true. And I think that as
> far as raising kids goes, actions probably are more important to the kid than
> feelings. -Nancy
Beauty
to talking to art to meds. Yep, all put together, it has, finally, turned down the
burner under the explosive rage. Immense sigh of relief.
Beauty.
Macademia
When I say selfish I do not mean it in a bad way. It's for my sake I am
sad though not for his, least most of the time. It is a habit almost for
me of rewriting the past in the darker versions. I have noticed if I
compliment someone it is worth nearly half of when I criticize another.
I have found this to be very helpful (when I remember it) when I fall
into the habit of looking through darker glasses in my past.
Sometimes I feel I need some kind of structure, or reason, to criticize
myself and seek it out by redressing the past.
I wish the past really was the past too, but I think it's mostly an
element in the present based on our perceptions which change as time
passes.
Mac
Macademia
Beauty wrote:
>
> Um, Macademia, I just wanted to reply to parts of this because I remember when parts
> of what you say were significant for me - I mean, when your child is of a very young
> age, more pragmatic attention is required, like making sure they get food. Later, you
> can say, "Get yourself something to eat." Or - "What would you like to eat?" And if
> it's something they can do, you say, "Okay, go take care of it." Or if you feel like
> it, you do it. And here's a moral tale: the other night, I was feeling esp.
> functional, and I "fed" my son - who is lean and has no hang-ups one way or the other
> about food. He kept asking for more food, and I kept feeding him, including, for
> once, "good" food like fresh strawberries, fresh carrots, etc. - and guess what? Even
> though he kept being "hungry" and actively asking for more food, by bedtime he was ill
> from having eaten too much.
:) lol
> And I used to feel as if I had neglected him by not
> paying more attention to making sure he got enough to eat!!!! So - now I feel almost
> as if leaving him alone to work it out is a better idea. You never know. Your idea
> of what is needed might turn out not to have been needed at all.
Yes, I've been trying to observe as impartially as possible what I bring
to the table when I think he needs something. All these standards we
absorb, like not getting your shoes wet. I suppose shoes are much
cheaper and more widely available now, but I was getting finicky about
his wet shoes, and suddenly I realized it didn't really matter and he
was having much more fun puddle jumping than following me around.
Mac
Beauty
Your analysis of what "the past" means is apt and helpful. Thank you.