saying sorry again
confuzzled
not trying to ignore anyone
and we really not trying to be difficult. we do and say same d*mb stuff
over and over.
and is maybe all me me today? dont mean to
(or is that just justification)
k. done with sorries now. finally going out.
astri
k
understand sorries
-- astri
======================
to email send to astri
======================
at volcano dot org
======================
confuzzled
> On Thu, 26 Nov 2009, confuzzled wrote:
>
>> think maybe we not replying to some stuff. think things getting
>> deleted. not trying to ignore anyone
>>
>> and we really not trying to be difficult. we do and say same d*mb
>> stuff over and over.
>>
>> and is maybe all me me today? dont mean to
>> (or is that just justification)
>>
>> k. done with sorries now. finally going out.
>
> k
>
> understand sorries
>
replies to other
write stuff and then delete
think this is part of the pattern?
Shiyiya
sounds like is part of pattern of trying to be good dutiful helpful?
confuzzled
don't wnat to be a problem
don't want to assume
don't want to be a burden
don't want to be selfish
Shiyiya
don't think is problem to talk about self/ves here. think is gift. is
breathing room where you don't have to be what other people want. if is
too much for someone to deal with at that point in time, they don't have
to, and is okay.
gathring
yes, think it is
confuzzled
how come it never feels that way?
and it seems like people are mostly ahving a hard time right now. so
should I be supportive?
and I know is the same old stuff out of me but I never seem to get it :/
confuzzled
<sigh>
(and I feel like I should say sorry. sheesh!!!!!!!!!!)
Shiyiya
Think can be supportive and sharing both. Not a zero-sum game of who can
ask for help. Is room for everyone. And sometimes is help for someone to
read about someone else instead of themself. And, you don't *have* to be
supportive of everyone. You can be, but doesn't make you terrible person
to not be. You're allowed to not help everyone. Think you get a lot of
messages from foo that you always have to be helper.
Shiyiya
is so often reflex, isn't it? tends to be kind of - anticipatory
protective reflex sort of thing, for me. like 'please don't be mad'.
astri
> astri wrote:
>> On Thu, 26 Nov 2009, confuzzled wrote:
>>
>>> think maybe we not replying to some stuff. think things getting
>>> deleted. not trying to ignore anyone
>>>
>>> and we really not trying to be difficult. we do and say same d*mb
>>> stuff over and over.
>>>
>>> and is maybe all me me today? dont mean to
>>> (or is that just justification)
>>>
>>> k. done with sorries now. finally going out.
>>
>> k
>>
>> understand sorries
>>
> really really feels like we shouldn't be posting unless is helpful
> replies to other
you forget that posting own stuff helps others make connections to
their
> write stuff and then delete
> think this is part of the pattern?
yes
astri
> don't wnat to be a problem
you not problem to anyone besides you
> don't want to assume
assume what?
> don't want to be a burden
you not burden to anyone besides you
> don't want to be selfish
you not selfish
gathring
know it gets frustrating. is ok tho. remember the sidewalk hole.
confuzzled
is it ok we here?
is it ok to ask that?
if we did something wrong could you tell us what it is
if this post is wrong could you tell us
ubiquity
Ok that you here. Glad you are here.
--
-ubiquity
Shiyiya
> really muddled
> is it ok we here?
yes
> is it ok to ask that?
yes
> if we did something wrong could you tell us what it is
haven't done anything wrong.
> if this post is wrong could you tell us
isn't wrong. is okay.
astri
> really muddled
> is it ok we here?
yes
> is it ok to ask that?
yes
> if we did something wrong could you tell us what it is
> if this post is wrong could you tell us
didn't notice anything you did wrong
this post is not wrong
maybe you triggered by azure's post
but is ok to express the feeling like you're whining when you express
the content
understand that can be the only way the content gets expressed
azure said she gets triggered by people b*ating themselves up with
words
she said "i'm just whining" feels to her like b*ating self up
think is still ok to say you feeling ike you're whining
think solution would be to say something like: "this just feels like
whining" instead of "i'm just whining"
think azure would be okay with you saying how it feels
cometz
by this logic the ppl who are having hard times should not post as it
means they aren't being supportive. have found that when possible it
helps us to extend our "logic" to the next set of conclusions cause
often i find that it's faulty and just another ruse to aid suffering.
would it help if ppl here told you that if you are problematic someone
would speak up? don't really think it's a good solution but trying to
consider ways that could help you let go of this block. it isn't true
and think you actually know that but all the bad conditioning
overwhelms youse.
makes me sad. so much like it when you are here. wish you could find a
way around this lie.
betsy
confuzzled
yes
self-protection
confuzzled
> On Fri, 27 Nov 2009, confuzzled wrote:
>> astri wrote:
>>> On Thu, 26 Nov 2009, confuzzled wrote:
>>>
>>>> think maybe we not replying to some stuff. think things getting
>>>> deleted. not trying to ignore anyone
>>>>
>>>> and we really not trying to be difficult. we do and say same d*mb
>>>> stuff over and over.
>>>>
>>>> and is maybe all me me today? dont mean to
>>>> (or is that just justification)
>>>>
>>>> k. done with sorries now. finally going out.
>>>
>>> k
>>>
>>> understand sorries
>>>
>> really really feels like we shouldn't be posting unless is helpful
>> replies to other
>
> you forget that posting own stuff helps others make connections to
> their
>
confuzzled
ty
confuzzled
except
<garble>
<sigh>
> would it help if ppl here told you that if you are problematic someone
> would speak up? don't really think it's a good solution but trying to
> consider ways that could help you let go of this block. it isn't true
> and think you actually know that but all the bad conditioning
> overwhelms youse.
>
I dunno even know anymore.
would help some of us. just want to know. never could know with foo.
especially the mother. wouldn't know. then later it would come out and
be so much bigger and worse then it should have been. or, even if it
wasn't bigger. was being told something was fine then much later
learning it wasn't. so how were we to know? the rules always changed.
what they said. how they acted. what they wanted from us. we never knew.
> makes me sad. so much like it when you are here. wish you could find a
> way around this lie.
>
know we've asked before. know we are repeating and repeating. don't want
to be problem. feels so stupid we keep repeating.
and we look at all this and we think this must be a big massive
manipulation. tricking people into saying nice stuff. saying they want
us around. and we been around and around on that one too.
so then we think we aren't getting anywhere.
and is our own fault. probably part of why we repeating this stuff is
because of time spent with foo. so is our fault
(charlie doesn't agree of course)
(no charlie, we not deleting. you can post your own stuff if you want)
confuzzled
> On Sun, 29 Nov 2009, confuzzled wrote:
>
>> really muddled
>> is it ok we here?
>
> yes
>
>> is it ok to ask that?
>
> yes
>
>> if we did something wrong could you tell us what it is
>> if this post is wrong could you tell us
>
> didn't notice anything you did wrong
> this post is not wrong
been stuck lots in then stuff
maybe climbing out some now
>
> maybe you triggered by azure's post
>
:/
we were already triggered
don't want azure to feel bad. what azure said was fair
> but is ok to express the feeling like you're whining when you express
> the content
>
> understand that can be the only way the content gets expressed
>
> azure said she gets triggered by people b*ating themselves up with
> words
>
> she said "i'm just whining" feels to her like b*ating self up
>
> think is still ok to say you feeling ike you're whining
>
> think solution would be to say something like: "this just feels like
> whining" instead of "i'm just whining"
>
> think azure would be okay with you saying how it feels
>
k
astri
>>
>> by this logic the ppl who are having hard times should not post as
>> it means they aren't being supportive. have found that when possible
>> it helps us to extend our "logic" to the next set of conclusions
>> cause often i find that it's faulty and just another ruse to aid
>> suffering.
>>
> well.. yes
> except
> <garble>
> <sigh>
exactly
>> would it help if ppl here told you that if you are problematic
>> someone would speak up? don't really think it's a good solution but
>> trying to consider ways that could help you let go of this block.
>> it isn't true and think you actually know that but all the bad
>> conditioning overwhelms youse.
>>
> I dunno even know anymore.
hard to
> would help some of us. just want to know. never could know with foo.
> especially the mother. wouldn't know. then later it would come out
> and be so much bigger and worse then it should have been. or, even if
> it wasn't bigger. was being told something was fine then much later
> learning it wasn't. so how were we to know? the rules always changed.
> what they said. how they acted. what they wanted from us. we never
> knew.
exactly they point. and all you know how to do is replay the old
patterns, so you have a hard time believing the rules are different
with different folks.
>> makes me sad. so much like it when you are here. wish you could find
>> a way around this lie.
>>
> know we've asked before. know we are repeating and repeating. don't
> want to be problem. feels so stupid we keep repeating.
is hard to change the old patterns. talking about them is one way to
start.
> and we look at all this and we think this must be a big massive
> manipulation. tricking people into saying nice stuff. saying they
> want us around. and we been around and around on that one too.
yeah
> so then we think we aren't getting anywhere.
think you are
> and is our own fault. probably part of why we repeating this stuff is
> because of time spent with foo. so is our fault
not your fault
but true is likely reaction to fambly time
> (charlie doesn't agree of course)
> (no charlie, we not deleting. you can post your own stuff if you want)
charlie is welcome to post
astri
> astri wrote:
>> On Sun, 29 Nov 2009, confuzzled wrote:
>>
>>> really muddled
>>> is it ok we here?
>>
>> yes
>>
>>> is it ok to ask that?
>>
>> yes
>>
>>> if we did something wrong could you tell us what it is
>>> if this post is wrong could you tell us
>>
>> didn't notice anything you did wrong
>> this post is not wrong
>
> been stuck lots in then stuff
> maybe climbing out some now
is exhausting to climb out
especially when the sides of the pit are all muddy and slippery
>> maybe you triggered by azure's post
>>
> :/
> we were already triggered
> don't want azure to feel bad. what azure said was fair
sure it was fair
but could also have been triggering
those aren't mutually exclusive
(hey, look: words!)
(*big* words!)
Baba Yaga
[NLC]
>> :/
>> we were already triggered
>> don't want azure to feel bad. what azure said was fair
>
>sure it was fair
>but could also have been triggering
yes. would be reasonable for it to be.
>those aren't mutually exclusive
not. alas.
>(hey, look: words!)
>(*big* words!)
heh.
Baba Yaga
--
External things are no more like the perceptions they give rise to,
than wine is similar to intoxication, or opium to the delirium which
it produces.
- John Playfair
confuzzled
> On Sun, 29 Nov 2009, confuzzled wrote:
>> cometz wrote:
>>>
>>> by this logic the ppl who are having hard times should not post as
>>> it means they aren't being supportive. have found that when possible
>>> it helps us to extend our "logic" to the next set of conclusions
>>> cause often i find that it's faulty and just another ruse to aid
>>> suffering.
>>>
>> well.. yes
>> except
>> <garble>
>> <sigh>
>
> exactly
>
<...>
>> would help some of us. just want to know. never could know with foo.
>> especially the mother. wouldn't know. then later it would come out
>> and be so much bigger and worse then it should have been. or, even if
>> it wasn't bigger. was being told something was fine then much later
>> learning it wasn't. so how were we to know? the rules always changed.
>> what they said. how they acted. what they wanted from us. we never
>> knew.
>
> exactly they point. and all you know how to do is replay the old
> patterns, so you have a hard time believing the rules are different
> with different folks.
<sigh>
>
>>> makes me sad. so much like it when you are here. wish you could find
>>> a way around this lie.
>>>
>> know we've asked before. know we are repeating and repeating. don't
>> want to be problem. feels so stupid we keep repeating.
>
> is hard to change the old patterns. talking about them is one way to
> start.
>
even if we say the same stuff over and over?
>> and we look at all this and we think this must be a big massive
>> manipulation. tricking people into saying nice stuff. saying they
>> want us around. and we been around and around on that one too.
>
> yeah
>
>> so then we think we aren't getting anywhere.
>
> think you are
am really confused about that
don't know what we doing
seems like stepping forward and stepping back at the same time
seems like we maybe dumping everything on asd
don't even know what we mean
>
>> and is our own fault. probably part of why we repeating this stuff is
>> because of time spent with foo. so is our fault
>
> not your fault
> but true is likely reaction to fambly time
>
friend today said he hoped we'd grow a backbone :/
>> (charlie doesn't agree of course)
>> (no charlie, we not deleting. you can post your own stuff if you want)
>
> charlie is welcome to post
>
wish she would
or that she would go away
something
Shiyiya
> astri wrote:
>> On Sun, 29 Nov 2009, confuzzled wrote:
>>> cometz wrote:
>>>>
>>>> by this logic the ppl who are having hard times should not post as
>>>> it means they aren't being supportive. have found that when possible
>>>> it helps us to extend our "logic" to the next set of conclusions
>>>> cause often i find that it's faulty and just another ruse to aid
>>>> suffering.
>>>>
>>> well.. yes
>>> except
>>> <garble>
>>> <sigh>
>>
>> exactly
>>
> other people's hard times are real
what's fundamentally different about yours to make them unreal? I see no
difference, from over here.
people only reply and read as much as they can and as much as they want
to. you're not *making* anyone read your stuff.
> don't even know what we mean
>
>>
>>> and is our own fault. probably part of why we repeating this stuff is
>>> because of time spent with foo. so is our fault
>>
>> not your fault
>> but true is likely reaction to fambly time
>>
> friend today said he hoped we'd grow a backbone :/
can understand his sentiment but not really the bext way to express it.
sounds like he's worried about you and frustrated that foo hurts you.
astri
> astri wrote:
>> On Sun, 29 Nov 2009, confuzzled wrote:
>>> cometz wrote:
>>>>
>>>> by this logic the ppl who are having hard times should not post as
>>>> it means they aren't being supportive. have found that when possible
>>>> it helps us to extend our "logic" to the next set of conclusions
>>>> cause often i find that it's faulty and just another ruse to aid
>>>> suffering.
>>>>
>>> well.. yes
>>> except
>>> <garble>
>>> <sigh>
>>
>> exactly
>>
> other people's hard times are real
so are yours
> <...>
>>> would help some of us. just want to know. never could know with foo.
>>> especially the mother. wouldn't know. then later it would come out
>>> and be so much bigger and worse then it should have been. or, even if
>>> it wasn't bigger. was being told something was fine then much later
>>> learning it wasn't. so how were we to know? the rules always changed.
>>> what they said. how they acted. what they wanted from us. we never
>>> knew.
>>
>> exactly they point. and all you know how to do is replay the old
>> patterns, so you have a hard time believing the rules are different
>> with different folks.
>
> <sigh>
>>
>>>> makes me sad. so much like it when you are here. wish you could find
>>>> a way around this lie.
>>>>
>>> know we've asked before. know we are repeating and repeating. don't
>>> want to be problem. feels so stupid we keep repeating.
>>
>> is hard to change the old patterns. talking about them is one way to
>> start.
>>
> even if we say the same stuff over and over?
yes
>>> and we look at all this and we think this must be a big massive
>>> manipulation. tricking people into saying nice stuff. saying they
>>> want us around. and we been around and around on that one too.
>>
>> yeah
>>
>>> so then we think we aren't getting anywhere.
>>
>> think you are
>
> am really confused about that
> don't know what we doing
> seems like stepping forward and stepping back at the same time
> seems like we maybe dumping everything on asd
> don't even know what we mean
is about par for your stage of discovery
>>> and is our own fault. probably part of why we repeating this stuff is
>>> because of time spent with foo. so is our fault
>>
>> not your fault
>> but true is likely reaction to fambly time
>>
> friend today said he hoped we'd grow a backbone :/
sigh
>>> (charlie doesn't agree of course)
>>> (no charlie, we not deleting. you can post your own stuff if you want)
>>
>> charlie is welcome to post
>>
> wish she would
> or that she would go away
> something
hard as is
Charlie of Confuzzled
> On Fri, 27 Nov 2009, confuzzled wrote:
>
truth but they are insisting
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
>> don't wnat to be a problem
>
> you not problem to anyone besides you
We will be. If you all have our way we are going to be fat and lazy and
selfish.
>
>> don't want to assume
>
> assume what?
>
You see, you don't get it. You can't just walk in to a group and assume
your wanted. And that doesn't mean they are bad or horrible people it
just means your timing is wrong or your not what they want or need.
That's fine. That's how the world works. And you can't assume that your
problems are the ones that matter. How stupid are we to come in here
whining because our finger hurts or we are tired or something when
someone else can't pay their rent or is really hurt and alone or is
thinking about s*icide. Do you know how awful it is to go on about your
own petty problems and later on find out that person you were whining to
has d*ed?
>> don't want to be a burden
>
> you not burden to anyone besides you
>
Oh sure. That's how come we are always having stupid problems and people
are always thinking they have to come help us or we can't even do
something as simple as drive to our br*thers house. That's how come our
friends and f*mily worry about us and we are constantly disappointing
the foo.
>> don't want to be selfish
>
> you not selfish
>
You all are trying to make us selfish!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Shiyiya
> astri wrote:
>> On Fri, 27 Nov 2009, confuzzled wrote:
>>
> They say we should spoiler for self-denigration. I'm just telling the
> truth but they are insisting
>
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
>
>>> don't wnat to be a problem
>>
>> you not problem to anyone besides you
>
> We will be. If you all have our way we are going to be fat and lazy and
> selfish.
I wasn't aware that giving bodies the fuel they need to function made
you fat. Or did you forget about how you passed out in the hsptl because
you take such poor care of the body? And burning yourself out trying not
to be "lazy" does exact nobody any good. I responded from the bottom up
so my rant on 'selfish' is below.
>>
>>> don't want to assume
>>
>> assume what?
>>
> You see, you don't get it. You can't just walk in to a group and assume
> your wanted. And that doesn't mean they are bad or horrible people it
> just means your timing is wrong or your not what they want or need.
> That's fine. That's how the world works. And you can't assume that your
> problems are the ones that matter. How stupid are we to come in here
> whining because our finger hurts or we are tired or something when
> someone else can't pay their rent or is really hurt and alone or is
> thinking about s*icide. Do you know how awful it is to go on about your
> own petty problems and later on find out that person you were whining to
> has d*ed?
And maybe it made that person feel better to be able to help you.
>
>>> don't want to be a burden
>>
>> you not burden to anyone besides you
>>
> Oh sure. That's how come we are always having stupid problems and people
> are always thinking they have to come help us or we can't even do
> something as simple as drive to our br*thers house. That's how come our
> friends and f*mily worry about us and we are constantly disappointing
> the foo.
Everybody has problems Charlie. The world isn't a Lifetime movie. There
is no perfection.
>
>>> don't want to be selfish
>>
>> you not selfish
>>
> You all are trying to make us selfish!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's not selfish to pay attention to your own needs first, Charlie. And
ignoring your own needs doesn't make you a fantastically amazing person,
it makes you someone whose problems are only going to get bigger because
you can't dela with something you refuse to admit is there. EVERYONE
puts their needs first, because nobody else is going to. And if you're
going to be so hung up on helping everyone else, tell me exactly how
you're going to do that when your body stops working because you don't
feed it.
astri
> astri wrote:
>> On Fri, 27 Nov 2009, confuzzled wrote:
>>
> They say we should spoiler for self-denigration. I'm just telling the
> truth but they are insisting
>
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
>
>>> don't wnat to be a problem
>>
>> you not problem to anyone besides you
>
> We will be. If you all have our way we are going to be fat and lazy
> and selfish.
seriously doubt that
>>> don't want to assume
>>
>> assume what?
>>
> You see, you don't get it. You can't just walk in to a group and
> assume your wanted. And that doesn't mean they are bad or horrible
> people it just means your timing is wrong or your not what they want
> or need. That's fine. That's how the world works. And you can't
> assume that your problems are the ones that matter. How stupid are we
you are not just walking in here
you have been here for over a year
you are part of this community now
> to come in here whining because our finger hurts or we are tired or
> something when someone else can't pay their rent or is really hurt
> and alone or is thinking about s*icide. Do you know how awful it is
> to go on about your own petty problems and later on find out that
> person you were whining to has d*ed?
this was awful
but it is then stuff
>>> don't want to be a burden
>>
>> you not burden to anyone besides you
>>
> Oh sure. That's how come we are always having stupid problems and
> people are always thinking they have to come help us or we can't even
> do something as simple as drive to our br*thers house. That's how
> come our friends and f*mily worry about us and we are constantly
> disappointing the foo.
there are things you all need to work on
hauntings from the past, we think
>>> don't want to be selfish
>>
>> you not selfish
>>
> You all are trying to make us selfish!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
think your definition of selfish is not anyone else's definition of
wolfie of confuzzled
> confuzzled wrote:
>> astri wrote:
>>> On Sun, 29 Nov 2009, confuzzled wrote:
>>>> cometz wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> by this logic the ppl who are having hard times should not post as
>>>>> it means they aren't being supportive. have found that when possible
>>>>> it helps us to extend our "logic" to the next set of conclusions
>>>>> cause often i find that it's faulty and just another ruse to aid
>>>>> suffering.
>>>>>
>>>> well.. yes
>>>> except
>>>> <garble>
>>>> <sigh>
>>>
>>> exactly
>>>
>> other people's hard times are real
>
> what's fundamentally different about yours to make them unreal? I see no
> difference, from over here.
we've asked other people this same question
have troubles sometimes applying it to self
think br*ther's struggles and us getting drawn more back into foo has
made us forget some.