being challenged and fighting shame
Emerging Butterfly
notice lots of challenges to my way of thinking
notice lots of insight and lots of probably very good resistance to
some of the things i say
so i think that sometimes i hear the challenges and retreat into ball
of shame
scared i can't grow
that i'm not worthy
challenges bring back echoes of scorn of rents and of the h*spital
they sent me to whose job it was to derail every perception i had and
tell me i was wrong and bad
so....
i think the challenges are good
and need to find way to keep caring for self and not get into so much
shame over things
shame is hard to fight
cometz
wrote:
yes. it makes me feel like i am sposed to d*e. don't want you to be
ashamed. we get too much emotion and are not good at moderating
selves. also deeply dislike s. sorry. hope you can find a healthy
alternative when you feel at risk.
betsy
Emerging Butterfly
thank you. we keep working on finding alternatives.
think we get closer and closer to getting away and then --
Well, J suggested that we'd been doing lots and lots of hard work and
having lots of realizations and maybe this was backlash from that.
made sense somewhat.
we trying.
this last time was not even....
i don't know. did not feel like conscious choice was pretty out of
control and i'm not even close to the one inside who made the decision
to go be with him.
was frantic middle of night pleas for help.
cometz
yes. understood you were not who was making choices. think hard thing
for all of you is understanding what being many means for all of you.
seems some don't really think you are many. that creates many
problems. developing some way to communicate might be a way to help.
notebooks, different colors for different selves or groups? pens or
pencils in colors as well. kids sometimes prefer pencils or crayons.
betsy
Emerging Butterfly
> On Nov 9, 7:59 pm, Emerging Butterfly <emerging.butter...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 9, 5:18 pm, cometz <comet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> yes. understood you were not who was making choices.
still have no idea who was making choices. big haze
think hard thing
> for all of you is understanding what being many means for all of you.
definitely
> seems some don't really think you are many.
very true
that creates many
> problems.
yeah
developing some way to communicate might be a way to help.
> notebooks, different colors for different selves or groups? pens or
> pencils in colors as well. kids sometimes prefer pencils or crayons.
we've tried a few times. j and i made a journal together that i could
use and the alters were writing for awhile and then alters got scared
to communicate or be found out and the thing mysteriously disappeared.
j and i have not been able to find it.
seems there is tons of resistance to communicating even when i try to
make the means readily available.
some kids really like your idea though. they say they wish they could
color and talk more but it's too scary and they're not really allowed
>
> betsy
Sonata
> so i've been reading some here the last few minutes
> notice lots of challenges to my way of thinking
> notice lots of insight and lots of probably very good resistance to
> some of the things i say
>
> so i think that sometimes i hear the challenges and retreat into ball
> of shame
> scared i can't grow
people challenge you because they think you *can* grow :) challenge you
to check if what you're saying is true, and why you're doing some things.
> that i'm not worthy
> challenges bring back echoes of scorn of rents and of the h*spital
> they sent me to whose job it was to derail every perception i had and
> tell me i was wrong and bad
Urgh.
>
> so....
> i think the challenges are good
> and need to find way to keep caring for self and not get into so much
> shame over things
> shame is hard to fight
is very hard. but ther eis no reason for you to be ashamed, k?
russiandolly
uboquity felt the same a while back too i think
is all part of the process, but difficult, yes, to get through without
getting caught up in tangles of 'bad' and 'wrong' and the associated
shame and humiliation feelings
Emerging Butterfly
thank you
hope you get that um we didn't make choice to go to him last time?
like....something happened
J usually doesn't talk to us when we're with him
but this time she called us regularly and invited us to call her
anytime cuz she says she could tell it was very different this time
was different system and not me like choosing to disregard reality and
act out
it was different
don't know if people here see that
or maybe it just sounds like lame justification
all i can say is i have no idea what happened
and i'm glad j is still my friend cuz i thought i'd lose her
song lyric:
"we didn't know -- no, we didn't even try
one minute there was road beneath us and the next just sky"
that's how it feels here
we were trying so hard to be on steady footing and then suddenly sky
and sky and sky and falling and no awareness
Emerging Butterfly
>
> people challenge you because they think you *can* grow :) challenge you
> to check if what you're saying is true, and why you're doing some things.
i gon try very very hard to grow
Emerging Butterfly
> On Nov 9, 11:49 pm, Emerging Butterfly
>
>
>
> <emerging.butter...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > so i've been reading some here the last few minutes
> > notice lots of challenges to my way of thinking
> > notice lots of insight and lots of probably very good resistance to
> > some of the things i say
>
> > so i think that sometimes i hear the challenges and retreat into ball
> > of shame
> > scared i can't grow
> > that i'm not worthy
> > challenges bring back echoes of scorn of rents and of the h*spital
> > they sent me to whose job it was to derail every perception i had and
> > tell me i was wrong and bad
>
> > so....
> > i think the challenges are good
> > and need to find way to keep caring for self and not get into so much
> > shame over things
> > shame is hard to fight
>
> uboquity felt the same a while back too i think
helps to know others have felt same
we like ubiquity and would not want him to feel how we feel
> is all part of the process, but difficult, yes, to get through without
> getting caught up in tangles of 'bad' and 'wrong' and the associated
> shame and humiliation feelings
is hard for everyone?
Sonata
See thtat very clearly. Anyone who would be rational about Steven was
very squashed away.
> or maybe it just sounds like lame justification
nope
Sonata
And you know, it's okay if it doesn't work all of the time, too.
Sometimes you slip back a little or have to take a break, and that's
okay too and you don't need to feel bad about it.
Emerging Butterfly
i feel like maybe we disappointed you by going back to him for help.
i know it's really frustrating to watch me do the same patterns over
and over.
this last time feels somehow different, but i'm not sure how or why.
maybe just the depth of the haze and pr*gramming. i dunno.
was pretty scary and dark and tranced for a bit
(someone needs to say here that he was safe and it wasn't his fault it
was dark he was helping)
Emerging Butterfly
the grace helps. thank you.
Sonata
> On Nov 11, 12:59 pm, Sonata <shiyiya.as...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Emerging Butterfly wrote:
>>> On Nov 9, 8:00 pm, Sonata <shiyiya.as...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> people challenge you because they think you *can* grow :) challenge you
>>>> to check if what you're saying is true, and why you're doing some things.
>>> i gon try very very hard to grow
>> And you know, it's okay if it doesn't work all of the time, too.
>> Sometimes you slip back a little or have to take a break, and that's
>> okay too and you don't need to feel bad about it.
>
> the grace helps. thank you.
Glad :)
russiandolly
yeah. we've been thinking a lot recently about how some of our
behaviours are simply a way of retreating from reality that is too
difficult for us, for example, we *not* the usual 20 year old going to
uni, going on nights out, looking good (ok then, feeling good about
looks) etc
so somehow being ill it doesn't count anymore. ended up isolated from
people and not doing very much, using weight loss ans s/h as self-
esteem.
would take an awful lot of strength to get 'back out there' and
swallow the pill that we are *not* the prettiest, cleverest, most
popular person in the wolrd (we perfectionist etc. sigh)
sorry. not sure where that came from, and not sure it relates to what
we were talking about.
rachel brought alice back down to earth with a thud a couple of years
back, pb alice that is (stands for pale blue by the way)
her self-image was all emaciated etc. Rachel pointed out in the mirror
that we *weren't* underweight, we were perfectly healthy, and that we
shouldn't be getting off on how thin we are and so on because we
*weren't*
caused a lot of upset and inevitable weight loss but *shrug* dunno.
guess we're talking about challenges then, and how, for us, reality is
a big challenge, wonder if that is kind of the core of all this trauma
stuff, i mean, we all (as in, everyone in this system) have a
different reality, from a different past history to a different way of
perceiving the world around us and our place in it.
makes for difficulties when we *think* that the outside world is a
pretty consistent place, and it's just us that's not.
russiandolly
perhaps you're just getting closer to the root of the problem?
perhaps some of your insiders that drove you to doing these things
have learnt otherwise - thay they can do things different and perhaps
that stuff isn't the best ideas
perhaps its just the ones in the system that are buried a bit deeper -
hence the depth of haze etc - that are left, so because you are so far
away from them is feels a lot worse, but maybe things gettting better,
slowly unravelling who it is that feels the need to do this and one at
a time working through it
think baba yaga was saying something similar
the last ones will always be the hardest we think
astri
> yeah. we've been thinking a lot recently about how some of our
> behaviours are simply a way of retreating from reality that is too
> difficult for us, for example, we *not* the usual 20 year old going to
> uni, going on nights out, looking good (ok then, feeling good about
> looks) etc
> so somehow being ill it doesn't count anymore. ended up isolated from
> people and not doing very much, using weight loss ans s/h as self-
> esteem.
:(
> would take an awful lot of strength to get 'back out there' and
> swallow the pill that we are *not* the prettiest, cleverest, most
> popular person in the wolrd (we perfectionist etc. sigh)
maybe you can change that "would" to "will"
> sorry. not sure where that came from, and not sure it relates to what
> we were talking about.
>
> rachel brought alice back down to earth with a thud a couple of years
> back, pb alice that is (stands for pale blue by the way)
> her self-image was all emaciated etc. Rachel pointed out in the mirror
> that we *weren't* underweight, we were perfectly healthy, and that we
> shouldn't be getting off on how thin we are and so on because we
> *weren't*
but she had enough reality testing that she actually saw what was in
the mirror
> caused a lot of upset and inevitable weight loss but *shrug* dunno.
> guess we're talking about challenges then, and how, for us, reality is
> a big challenge, wonder if that is kind of the core of all this trauma
> stuff, i mean, we all (as in, everyone in this system) have a
> different reality, from a different past history to a different way of
> perceiving the world around us and our place in it.
> makes for difficulties when we *think* that the outside world is a
> pretty consistent place, and it's just us that's not.
did you mean to say: outside world is a pretty inconsistent place?
-- astri
======================
to email send to astri
======================
at volcano dot org
======================
Emerging Butterfly
hmm. just read this for the second time and this time it made sense.
you may be right. as more and more of us choose recovery, it's the
ones we are not so aware of at all who are doing the dark stuff still.
thanks for this insight.
confuzzled
this sounds right
russiandolly
> On Thu, 12 Nov 2009, russiandolly wrote:
> > yeah. we've been thinking a lot recently about how some of our
> > behaviours are simply a way of retreating from reality that is too
> > difficult for us, for example, we *not* the usual 20 year old going to
> > uni, going on nights out, looking good (ok then, feeling good about
> > looks) etc
> > so somehow being ill it doesn't count anymore. ended up isolated from
> > people and not doing very much, using weight loss ans s/h as self-
> > esteem.
>
> :(
>
> > would take an awful lot of strength to get 'back out there' and
> > swallow the pill that we are *not* the prettiest, cleverest, most
> > popular person in the wolrd (we perfectionist etc. sigh)
>
> maybe you can change that "would" to "will"
>
we are doing. :)
> > sorry. not sure where that came from, and not sure it relates to what
> > we were talking about.
>
> > rachel brought alice back down to earth with a thud a couple of years
> > back, pb alice that is (stands for pale blue by the way)
> > her self-image was all emaciated etc. Rachel pointed out in the mirror
> > that we *weren't* underweight, we were perfectly healthy, and that we
> > shouldn't be getting off on how thin we are and so on because we
> > *weren't*
>
> but she had enough reality testing that she actually saw what was in
> the mirror
>
> > caused a lot of upset and inevitable weight loss but *shrug* dunno.
> > guess we're talking about challenges then, and how, for us, reality is
> > a big challenge, wonder if that is kind of the core of all this trauma
> > stuff, i mean, we all (as in, everyone in this system) have a
> > different reality, from a different past history to a different way of
> > perceiving the world around us and our place in it.
> > makes for difficulties when we *think* that the outside world is a
> > pretty consistent place, and it's just us that's not.
>
> did you mean to say: outside world is a pretty inconsistent place?
>
no! we meant that the outsid world is *more* consistent that we are!
a yard is a yard
a gallon is a gallon
a pound is a pound
our reality tends to change a h*ll of a lot more than the outside
world does
hmm... not sure we're explaining this too good...
a pound is a pound right, so our weight can stay *exactly* the same
but our feelings towards it, or our perception of the body, changes
loads. in reality, it's being good and consistent, but inside
sometime's it's too fat and sometimes its ok
(i think what they're getting at is that they all had different
feelings for and opinions of the ex, which can sometimes be quite
difficult to kind of work through because doing the right thing for
*everyone* is difficult)
astri
> On Nov 13, 3:50 am, astri <as...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On Thu, 12 Nov 2009, russiandolly wrote:
>>
>>> would take an awful lot of strength to get 'back out there' and
>>> swallow the pill that we are *not* the prettiest, cleverest, most
>>> popular person in the wolrd (we perfectionist etc. sigh)
>>
>> maybe you can change that "would" to "will"
>>
>
> we are doing. :)
:)
>>> i mean, we all (as in, everyone in this system) have a different
>>> reality, from a different past history to a different way of
>>> perceiving the world around us and our place in it. makes for
>>> difficulties when we *think* that the outside world is a pretty
>>> consistent place, and it's just us that's not.
>>
>> did you mean to say: outside world is a pretty inconsistent place?
>
> no! we meant that the outsid world is *more* consistent that we are!
> a yard is a yard
> a gallon is a gallon
> a pound is a pound
> our reality tends to change a h*ll of a lot more than the outside
> world does
> hmm... not sure we're explaining this too good...
get it now
> a pound is a pound right, so our weight can stay *exactly* the same
> but our feelings towards it, or our perception of the body, changes
> loads. in reality, it's being good and consistent, but inside
> sometime's it's too fat and sometimes its ok
total sense
> (i think what they're getting at is that they all had different
> feelings for and opinions of the ex, which can sometimes be quite
> difficult to kind of work through because doing the right thing for
> *everyone* is difficult)
and sometimes impossible, which is where the compromise and cooperation
come in
russiandolly
> On Sat, 14 Nov 2009, russiandolly wrote:
> > On Nov 13, 3:50 am, astri <as...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >> On Thu, 12 Nov 2009, russiandolly wrote:
>
> >>> would take an awful lot of strength to get 'back out there' and
> >>> swallow the pill that we are *not* the prettiest, cleverest, most
> >>> popular person in the wolrd (we perfectionist etc. sigh)
>
> >> maybe you can change that "would" to "will"
>
> > we are doing. :)
>
> :)
>
> >>> i mean, we all (as in, everyone in this system) have a different
> >>> reality, from a different past history to a different way of
> >>> perceiving the world around us and our place in it. makes for
> >>> difficulties when we *think* that the outside world is a pretty
> >>> consistent place, and it's just us that's not.
>
> >> did you mean to say: outside world is a pretty inconsistent place?
>
> > no! we meant that the outsid world is *more* consistent that we are!
> > a yard is a yard
> > a gallon is a gallon
> > a pound is a pound
> > our reality tends to change a h*ll of a lot more than the outside
> > world does
> > hmm... not sure we're explaining this too good...
>
> get it now
>
ooh good :)
> > a pound is a pound right, so our weight can stay *exactly* the same
> > but our feelings towards it, or our perception of the body, changes
> > loads. in reality, it's being good and consistent, but inside
> > sometime's it's too fat and sometimes its ok
>
> total sense
>
yay!
> > (i think what they're getting at is that they all had different
> > feelings for and opinions of the ex, which can sometimes be quite
> > difficult to kind of work through because doing the right thing for
> > *everyone* is difficult)
>
> and sometimes impossible, which is where the compromise and cooperation
> come in
>
yeah :(
confuzzled
> On Nov 13, 3:50 am, astri <as...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On Thu, 12 Nov 2009, russiandolly wrote:
>>> yeah. we've been thinking a lot recently about how some of our
>>> behaviours are simply a way of retreating from reality that is too
>>> difficult for us, for example, we *not* the usual 20 year old going to
>>> uni, going on nights out, looking good (ok then, feeling good about
>>> looks) etc
>>> so somehow being ill it doesn't count anymore. ended up isolated from
>>> people and not doing very much, using weight loss ans s/h as self-
>>> esteem.
>> :(
>>
>>> would take an awful lot of strength to get 'back out there' and
>>> swallow the pill that we are *not* the prettiest, cleverest, most
>>> popular person in the wolrd (we perfectionist etc. sigh)
>> maybe you can change that "would" to "will"
>>
>
> we are doing. :)
>