Re: Study: Cholesterol drugs could help those with healthy levels

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Jerry Vrooman

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Nov 9, 2008, 5:55:29 PM11/9/08
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Oh Darn wrote:
> http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/conditions/11/09/cholesterol.drugs/index.html?eref=rss_health
> CNN) -- Healthy men and women with good cholesterol levels could
> significantly reduce their risk of heart disease by taking
> cholesterol-lowering drugs, better known as statins, according to a
> study released Sunday.

By a funny coincidence the study was funded by the makers of Crestor.

Bjørnar Nilsen

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Nov 9, 2008, 6:25:03 PM11/9/08
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Nicky skrev:

> On Sun, 09 Nov 2008 15:11:23 -0600, Oh Darn wrote:
>
>> http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/conditions/11/09/cholesterol.drugs/index.html?eref=rss_health
>> CNN) -- Healthy men and women with good cholesterol levels could
>> significantly reduce their risk of heart disease by taking
>> cholesterol-lowering drugs, better known as statins, according to a
>> study released Sunday.
>
> Anybody trust CNN with their health advice?!
>

I dont, no channel here in norway either for that matter. Im just
wondering, who can you trust:)

regards
nilsn

Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD

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Nov 9, 2008, 6:50:24 PM11/9/08
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Bjørnar Nilsen wrote:
> Nicky skrev:

> > Oh Darn wrote:
> >
> >> http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/conditions/11/09/cholesterol.drugs/index.html?eref=rss_health
> >> CNN) -- Healthy men and women with good cholesterol levels could
> >> significantly reduce their risk of heart disease by taking
> >> cholesterol-lowering drugs, better known as statins, according to a
> >> study released Sunday.
> >
> > Anybody trust CNN with their health advice?!
> >
>
> I dont, no channel here in norway either for that matter. Im just
> wondering, who can you trust:)

The only Person one can trust is the LORD (Jeremiah 9:24).

Folks with elevated hsCRP and low HDL (mean 49 mg/dL) are not healthy
because they have VAT.

It remains much wiser to eat less, down to the right amount, in order
to lose the VAT:

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/3558812d72ab4e17?

<><

"... no one can say 'Jesus is LORD' except by the Holy Spirit." (1 Cor
12:3)

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/43acbc5ea248ceee?

GysdeJongh

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Nov 9, 2008, 7:17:48 PM11/9/08
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"Nicky" <ukc802...@btconnect.com> wrote in message
news:ttneh4petb2i2k1k7...@4ax.com...

> On Sun, 09 Nov 2008 15:11:23 -0600, Oh Darn wrote:

> Healthy men and women with good cholesterol levels could
> significantly reduce their risk of heart disease by taking
>>cholesterol-lowering drugs

> Anybody trust CNN with their health advice?!

not me
-1
Gys


GysdeJongh

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Nov 9, 2008, 7:22:24 PM11/9/08
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<Oh Darn> wrote in message
news:kekeh4lb4qa7okf57...@4ax.com...
> http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/conditions/11/09/cholesterol.drugs/index.html?eref=rss_health
> CNN) -- Healthy men and women with good cholesterol levels could

> significantly reduce their risk of heart disease by taking
> cholesterol-lowering drugs, better known as statins

I hope they are not planning to hand out statins to endangered species like
orangutans ;)
Gys


Michelle C

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Nov 9, 2008, 8:00:35 PM11/9/08
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"Jerry Vrooman" <GVro...@NoSpam.att.net> wrote in message
news:BTJRk.21885$_Y1....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

Imagine that. And I'm sure they just did it out of the goodness of their
hearts and are going to hand it out for free.
--
Best regards,
Michelle C., T2
diet & exercise
BMI 21.5


GysdeJongh

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Nov 10, 2008, 6:34:21 AM11/10/08
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<Oh Darn> wrote in message
news:kekeh4lb4qa7okf57...@4ax.com...
> http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/conditions/11/09/cholesterol.drugs/index.html?eref=rss_health

Hi Oh Darn,
I just saw this link where they reported an increase in onset diabetes :

http://www.medpagetoday.com/MeetingCoverage/AHA/11684
AHA: JUPITER Results Point to Role of Statins for 'Apparently Healthy'
Patients
NEW ORLEANS, Nov. 9 -- Intensive lipid-lowering with rosuvastatin (Crestor)
for not even two full years significantly and dramatically reduced the rate
of myocardial infarction, stroke, and cardiovascular death in "apparently
healthy men and women," researchers reported here.

apparently.....They had an elevated C-reactive protein and thus had a
systemic low-grade (?) "infection" like T2.....

All participants had elevated highly sensitive CRP, defined as 2.0 mg/L or
higher, and here, too, the results were impressive -- an average reduction
of 37%.

They also reported this :
Although the drug was well tolerated, there was one finding of concern -- an
increase in physician-reported new onset diabetes. There were 270 cases in
the rosuvastatin group versus 216 in placebo (P=0.01)

This seems also important :
JUPITER was funded by AstraZeneca, which markets rosuvastatin.

Dr. Ridker is the co-inventor of the highly sensitive CRP test and along
with Brigham and Women's Hospital he holds the patent on the test. Dr.
Ridker also reported financial support from AstraZeneca, Novartis, Merck,
Abbott, Roche, sanofi-aventis, Merck-Schering-Plough, Isis, Dade Behring,
and Vascular Biogenics.


Dr. Nissen reported that the Cleveland Clinic Coordinating Center for
Clinical Research has received research support to perform clinical trials
from Pfizer, AstraZeneca, Sankyo, Takeda, sanofi-aventis, Lilly, Roche,
Daiichi-Sankyo, and Novartis.

Dr. Nissen consults for many pharmaceutical companies, but says he requires
them to donate all honoraria or consulting fees directly to charity so that
he receives neither income nor a tax deduction.
hth
Gys


Nicky

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Nov 10, 2008, 7:59:59 AM11/10/08
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On Mon, 10 Nov 2008 12:34:21 +0100, "GysdeJongh" <jong...@planet.nl>
wrote:

><Oh Darn> wrote in message
>news:kekeh4lb4qa7okf57...@4ax.com...
>> http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/conditions/11/09/cholesterol.drugs/index.html?eref=rss_health
>
>Hi Oh Darn,
>I just saw this link where they reported an increase in onset diabetes :
>
>http://www.medpagetoday.com/MeetingCoverage/AHA/11684

<sigh> the BBC discovered the report today - all over the news and
breakfast TV. I'd put money on the NHS using it as an excuse to put
more pressure on everyone to take the stuff, without of course doing
any CRP testing...

Nicky.
T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
D&E, 100ug thyroxine
Last A1c 5.4% BMI 25

Message has been deleted

Sleepyman

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Nov 11, 2008, 10:48:53 AM11/11/08
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On Sun, 09 Nov 2008 17:33:45 -0500, Susan <neve...@nomail.com> wrote:

>x-no-archive: yes
>
>Nicky wrote:


>> On Sun, 09 Nov 2008 15:11:23 -0600, Oh Darn wrote:
>>
>>
>>>http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/conditions/11/09/cholesterol.drugs/index.html?eref=rss_health
>>>CNN) -- Healthy men and women with good cholesterol levels could
>>>significantly reduce their risk of heart disease by taking
>>>cholesterol-lowering drugs, better known as statins, according to a
>>>study released Sunday.
>>
>>

>> Anybody trust CNN with their health advice?!
>>
>
>

>Anybody trust drug manufacturers who start peddling drugs to healthy people?
>
>Susan

Ah Susan,

I hope you have been well..

You surprise me by not having first response on a subject such as this.

BTW, I'm not so sure about this study myself as it was sponsored by Crestor (a
statin for those who don't know), and it was supposed to be a five year study,
but they stopped it after 2 because the results were "so good". It makes me very
suspicious.

Sleepy
-----------------------------------------------
I saw a subliminal advertising executive,
but only for a second.

Stephen Wright

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W. Baker

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Nov 11, 2008, 12:40:38 PM11/11/08
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Nicky <ukc802...@btconnect.com> wrote:
: On Sun, 09 Nov 2008 15:11:23 -0600, Oh Darn wrote:

: >http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/conditions/11/09/cholesterol.drugs/index.html?eref=rss_health
: >CNN) -- Healthy men and women with good cholesterol levels could
: >significantly reduce their risk of heart disease by taking
: >cholesterol-lowering drugs, better known as statins, according to a
: >study released Sunday.

: Anybody trust CNN with their health advice?!

: Nicky.

I don't trust news reports, but htis has gotton widespread publicity and
some rather more informative articles.

What I gather is that is issue is C reactive Protein that seems to be
reduced by the Statin. This leads me to a theory that it is the C-RP
reductin properties of the Statin that may well be the whole benefit orf
these drugs, not the LDL lowering.
If you recall, recently there was a combo drug that was found to be no
better than the statin alone in making total health improvement. I don't
recall the name of the drug, but it did reduce LDL's but did not lower
cardio /stroke risk.

If you put this together with the finding in the Crestor study that peole
with elevated C-RP were those who benefitted by the Srestor, it looks like
we have the actual issue.

I know that there are issues as to whether C-RP is "the cause" or just a
marker adn by lowering it you may not help the uderlying problem(I have
elevated C-RP and have been ut on a Folic Acid 2o00mg, B12 aand B6 oto try
to deal with this, but the endo told me he is not sure if this gets to the
root of the problem.

It seems, from reading Taubes, and much on this group about fluffy and
dense particles, that the C-RP and triglycerides may well be more of an
issues than the LDL. Now if they coul disolate what it is in the staatin
that reduces eithe ehr C-PR or whatever is causing that marker to indicate
more cardio issues, we might be on to something.

Sorry that this is so rambling, but I am trying to work it out as I write.

Wendy

Alice Faber

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Nov 11, 2008, 12:57:02 PM11/11/08
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In article <gfcg2m$1qh$2...@reader1.panix.com>,
"W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com> wrote:

> Nicky <ukc802...@btconnect.com> wrote:
> : On Sun, 09 Nov 2008 15:11:23 -0600, Oh Darn wrote:
>
> : >http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/conditions/11/09/cholesterol.drugs/index.htm

> : >l?eref=rss_health


> : >CNN) -- Healthy men and women with good cholesterol levels could
> : >significantly reduce their risk of heart disease by taking
> : >cholesterol-lowering drugs, better known as statins, according to a
> : >study released Sunday.
>
> : Anybody trust CNN with their health advice?!
>
> : Nicky.
>
> I don't trust news reports, but htis has gotton widespread publicity and
> some rather more informative articles.

Even one of the regular news stories about this that I saw raised one of
the points that Sandy on Junkfood Science regularly makes. That is, if
you look at the results in terms of numbers of patients rather than %
change in risk, you have to treat something like 250 people to save one
heart attack. It's a pretty expensive drug to take, with some pretty
daunting side effects, on the gamble that you'd be that 1 in 250.

--
"[xxx] has very definite opinions, and does not suffer fools lightly.
This, apparently, upsets the fools."
---BB cuts to the pith of a flame-fest

Trinkwasser

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Nov 11, 2008, 3:44:36 PM11/11/08
to

Not rambling at all, I for one agree with you.

It's complicated though, I can't get CRP tested (I asked) simvastatin
works well on my LDL but the low carb/low BG diet has worked wonders
on the HDL and trigs and my latest finding (DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME)
is that without the trigs I now convert saturated fat into HDL so I'm
going to try dropping the statin before my next bloods and see if the
LDL stays down.

Trigs/HDL is correlated with insulin resistance and cardiovascular
risk but I don't know how it relates to CRP.

I suspect Quentin will have advice on foods to tame CRP which might
have at least as much effect as the statin, probably be cheaper and
certainly be tastier!

Message has been deleted
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Wes Groleau

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Nov 12, 2008, 7:42:39 PM11/12/08
to
Sleepyman wrote:
> BTW, I'm not so sure about this study myself as it was sponsored by Crestor (a

The most expensive statin, but unnamed experts in the version I heard
"suspected" that it would be true of all statins.

> statin for those who don't know), and it was supposed to be a five year study,
> but they stopped it after 2 because the results were "so good". It makes me very
> suspicious.

The report I heard (I haven't had a chance to go for the
actual report yet) also said that the benefit was in those
who had high levels of C-reactive protein. So if your
lipids are good AND you don't have that, the study is irrelevant.

If you do have high CRP, then before just diving into another
medicine, ask whether some other treatment might be better for you.

If you don't know your CRP, and your doctor wants you on the
Crestor bandwagon, ask whether some other doctor might be
better for you.

--
Wes Groleau

Educational Testing Doesn't Always Show True Achievement
http://Ideas.Lang-Learn.us/russell?itemid=573

Wes Groleau

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Nov 12, 2008, 7:56:31 PM11/12/08
to
Alice Faber wrote:
> Even one of the regular news stories about this that I saw raised one of
> the points that Sandy on Junkfood Science regularly makes. That is, if
> you look at the results in terms of numbers of patients rather than %
> change in risk, you have to treat something like 250 people to save one
> heart attack. It's a pretty expensive drug to take, with some pretty
> daunting side effects, on the gamble that you'd be that 1 in 250.

I read the following elsewhere:

"For every 25 patients treated with Crestor in the 17,802-patient
study, one serious heart event was avoided and one death was
prevented for every 180 patients. All were subjects who would
not be prescribed statins under current cholesterol guidelines."

So that's one of ninety (less than ninety if you omit "serious").

--
Wes Groleau

Translation in the FL Classroom
http://Ideas.Lang-Learn.us/russell?itemid=528

Wes Groleau

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Nov 12, 2008, 8:06:53 PM11/12/08
to
Nicky wrote:
> Anybody trust CNN with their health advice?!

This guy doesn't:

<http://www.drwalt.com/blog/a-trusted-expert-speaks-out-on-the-vytorin-fiasco-for-doctors/>

<http://tinyurl.com/62z36g>

--
Wes Groleau

Examples of "Personalizing" FL Instruction and Learning
http://Ideas.Lang-Learn.us/russell?itemid=624

Quentin Grady

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Nov 13, 2008, 3:48:41 AM11/13/08
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On Tue, 11 Nov 2008 20:44:36 +0000, Trinkwasser
<sp...@devnull.com.invalid> wrote:

>I suspect Quentin will have advice on foods to tame CRP which might
>have at least as much effect as the statin, probably be cheaper and
>certainly be tastier

Hi Trink,

I do so love the way you guys throw me in the deep end and tell me to
swim. It keeps my life meaningful. Gives it a sense of purpose and
all that. <grin>

OK, statins represent a large group of compounds. As far as the
first generation of statins used to lower cholesterol it was possible
to match their cholesterol lowering properties with nutritional
interventions.

The classic approach was called the Portfolio diet. Although it was
financed by vegan interests it worked well for omnivores also.
What the dietary approach can't do is match the so called super
statins that are replacing the earlier versions.

Your question though asks for something different, ie matching statins
for their secondary effect of reducing inflammation. It is this
combination of cholesterol reduction and inflammation reduction that
has lead to them reducing death rates.

How good are the modern statins are reducing inflammation?
Are the so called super statins better than the early ones at reducing
inflammation? Trink, I'm not sure how much that target has moved.

While it is easy to list some anti-inflammatory foods I think it would
be wrong to attempt to equate them to statins. Here's why.

Let's imagine there was a food with anti-inflammatory properties equal
to those of a particular statin eg turmeric, the yellow stuff found in
curry. One would have to take that food regularly. People are likely
to take a pill regularly day after day without grumbling.
Curry every day?

OK, so one would have to regularly use a range of anti-inflammatory
foods. Now that is more likely to be possible. Curry one day. Gentle
cooking with extra virgin olive oil that has a peppery aftertaste
another day. Fish from the wild with its omega-3 another day. That is
much more likely to be achievable though it could give one's meals a
feel like one was taking part in a controlled experiment if one wasn't
careful.

Even singling out specific foods is a bit tricky when for many people
posting here the most important contribution to reducing inflammation
is made by keeping blood glucose well controlled since they are
diabetics and elevated blood glucose is inflammatory.
That is something most regulars understand already.

Hopefully I've started moving the discussion in a productive
direction.

Best wishes,
--
Quentin Grady ^ ^ /
New Zealand, >#,#< [
/ \ /\
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Trinkwasser

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Nov 14, 2008, 3:46:33 PM11/14/08
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On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 21:48:41 +1300, Quentin Grady
<que...@paradise.net.nz> wrote:


>Let's imagine there was a food with anti-inflammatory properties equal
>to those of a particular statin eg turmeric, the yellow stuff found in
>curry. One would have to take that food regularly. People are likely
>to take a pill regularly day after day without grumbling.
>Curry every day?

I could live with that!

>OK, so one would have to regularly use a range of anti-inflammatory
>foods. Now that is more likely to be possible. Curry one day. Gentle
>cooking with extra virgin olive oil that has a peppery aftertaste
>another day. Fish from the wild with its omega-3 another day. That is
>much more likely to be achievable though it could give one's meals a
>feel like one was taking part in a controlled experiment if one wasn't
>careful.

I already AM living with that. For which I thank you most sincerely.

Also of course those five colours a day et al.

Alan S

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Nov 14, 2008, 5:38:38 PM11/14/08
to
On Sun, 09 Nov 2008 15:11:23 -0600, Oh Darn wrote:

>http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/conditions/11/09/cholesterol.drugs/index.html?eref=rss_health
>CNN) -- Healthy men and women with good cholesterol levels could
>significantly reduce their risk of heart disease by taking
>cholesterol-lowering drugs, better known as statins, according to a
>study released Sunday.

For the last word on statins and several other things, try
this (you'll need broadband): http://tinyurl.com/5hru8s or
http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/210357/november-12-2008/cheating-death---women-s-health


Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
--
d&e, metformin 2000 mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com (Analysis of a Day's Meals)
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com (Two Indian Hotels: to Sleep, Perchance...)

Quentin Grady

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Nov 17, 2008, 4:03:35 AM11/17/08
to

Hi Trink,

I really wish I could help you more.
However it's not so easy.

While it is easy to get tables of antioxidant ability eg ORAC scores
it isn't so easy to get scores for the anti-inflammatory ability of
different foods.

What we come back to is doing what we are already doing here.
Controlling blood glucose levels, adding omega-3, and a few other
things like EVOO with a peppery after taste, papain, turmeric with
black pepper. You could have turmeric and black pepper in conjunction
with evening primrose oil but that does not a curry make for me.

Prompt me every so often and I'll go back through my notes.

Trinkwasser

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Nov 17, 2008, 2:59:17 PM11/17/08
to
On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 22:03:35 +1300, Quentin Grady
<que...@paradise.net.nz> wrote:

ORAC, them's the buggers whose name I forgot.

>What we come back to is doing what we are already doing here.
>Controlling blood glucose levels, adding omega-3, and a few other
>things like EVOO with a peppery after taste, papain, turmeric with
>black pepper. You could have turmeric and black pepper in conjunction
>with evening primrose oil but that does not a curry make for me.

Hey you don't have to have them all in the same meal! I take my EPO
with breakfast along with fish and salad (including olives) and
different stuff in the evening and at night. Over a few days I'm
probably pretty well covered.

>Prompt me every so often and I'll go back through my notes.

I suspect you have better things to worry about just now. What I
*should* be doing is organising my keepfile and bookmarks and
downloaded pdfs, it's all in there somewhere.

Nicky

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Nov 17, 2008, 3:38:56 PM11/17/08
to
On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 19:59:17 +0000, Trinkwasser
<sp...@devnull.com.invalid> wrote:

>I suspect you have better things to worry about just now. What I
>*should* be doing is organising my keepfile and bookmarks and
>downloaded pdfs, it's all in there somewhere.

Google Desktop - and a firewall that stops it calling home...

Quentin Grady

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Nov 18, 2008, 3:42:42 AM11/18/08
to
On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 19:59:17 +0000, Trinkwasser
<sp...@devnull.com.invalid> wrote:

>Hey you don't have to have them all in the same meal! I take my EPO
>with breakfast along with fish and salad (including olives) and
>different stuff in the evening and at night. Over a few days I'm
>probably pretty well covered.

Hi Trink,

It is worth mentioning for the benefit of new comers that it makes
sense to have EPO and fish or fish oil tablets at different times as
you have done. It is a matter of competing for enzymes involved in
the production of endorphins. Those are ultra rapid hormone like
substances that produce almost instantaneous changes in our appearance
as when our face bursts out in a smile when we had been feeling sad
for example. Except here we're interested in both of them reducing
inflammation.

Trinkwasser

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Nov 22, 2008, 11:08:32 AM11/22/08
to
On Tue, 18 Nov 2008 21:42:42 +1300, Quentin Grady
<que...@paradise.net.nz> wrote:

>On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 19:59:17 +0000, Trinkwasser
><sp...@devnull.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>>Hey you don't have to have them all in the same meal! I take my EPO
>>with breakfast along with fish and salad (including olives) and
>>different stuff in the evening and at night. Over a few days I'm
>>probably pretty well covered.
>
>Hi Trink,
>
> It is worth mentioning for the benefit of new comers that it makes
>sense to have EPO and fish or fish oil tablets at different times as
>you have done. It is a matter of competing for enzymes involved in
>the production of endorphins. Those are ultra rapid hormone like
>substances that produce almost instantaneous changes in our appearance
>as when our face bursts out in a smile when we had been feeling sad
>for example. Except here we're interested in both of them reducing
>inflammation.
>

Oh bugger, I've been taking the EPO with the fish breakfast, and I've
also been trialling flax oil at the same time.

Elsewhere there's an NHS dietician who promised to analyze some of our
diets, when I get the necessary circular tuits I intend to take her up
on her offer. Be interesting to see if she actually turns up something
other than the lack of carbs to complain about.

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