What's different about Jennifer's Advice?

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Chris Malcolm

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Jul 26, 2011, 9:32:59 PM7/26/11
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The previous discussion about this has got rather polluted by
cross-posting trolls so I'm restarting it here.

Kurt has claimed that Jennifer's "test test test" Advice is nothing
new or special, it's the pretty standard advice that medical
professionals have been giving out (or should have been giving out)
for for years if not decades before Jennifer started polishing her
summary advice to newbies in asd and mhd.

But her advice is more than the advice to test your BGs. It gives
advice about when, what to do with the test results, etc. Here it is.

"Jennifer's advice"

http://www.diabetes-support.org.uk/info/?page_id=136

Note the advice about when:

* Upon waking (fasting)
* 1 hour after each meal
* 2 hours after each meal
* At bedtime

Here's the advice about what BG targets to aim for:

* FBG under 110
* One hour after meals under 140
* Two hours after meals under 120

Those are substantially lower target values than those advised by the
ADA or Joslin. The method she advises of trying to get to those target
values is also rather different from the general treatment plans of
the ADA or Joslin. She gives more detailed dietary advice, shifting
more strongly in a low carbing direction, than do ADA or Joslin.

Of course it is true that the ADA & Joslin don't say that aiming for
and achieving such targets is bad, nor is that kind of low carbing
bad. They would be quite happy for an individual doctor to give such
advice to an individual patient based on their needs and
capabilities. But generally speaking they don't expect it.

For example the ADA's general Type 2 post mean BG target is to be
under 180 at one or two hrs post meal, and if you're failing to meet
that then the primary intervention is intensification of
pharmacological treatment. See for example:

"Medical Management of Hyperglycemia in Type 2 Diabetes: A Consensus
Algorithm for the Initiation and Adjustment of Therapy"

"A consensus statement of the American Diabetes Association and the
European Association for the Study of Diabetes"

http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/32/1/193.full

I think these differences in emphasis are important.

--
Chris Malcolm

kurtwh...@yahoo.com

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Jul 26, 2011, 9:46:01 PM7/26/11
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On Jul 26, 6:32 pm, Chris Malcolm <c...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
> The previous discussion about this has got rather polluted by
> cross-posting trolls so I'm restarting it here.

The only trolling and pollution I see is what you wrote in this post,
which is nothng more than a straw man premise built on something you
say I said, but I never said. You are doing that kind of thing now on
such a regular basis and in so many posts that when others do it they
should be accused of "Pulling a Malcolmism." In other words, it is now
your m.o. to own. Congratulations.

Kurt

Ozgirl

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Jul 26, 2011, 11:09:52 PM7/26/11
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"Chris Malcolm" <c...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:99986b...@mid.individual.net...

You know if you were anyone but you, PP, Cheri and a few others you
would have been told to let this go already or to stop arguing with the
pigs in mud or whatever that commonly quoted saying is that pops up in
here :) Just sayinzall.

Julie Bove

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Jul 26, 2011, 11:10:58 PM7/26/11
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Her advice is pretty much standard to what I was told by every Endo. I saw.
Granted the first Endo. told me to keep <180. Well he didn't actually tell
me that but it was on something printed that he gave me. When questioned he
said that was old info and gave me the new guidelines.

My current Endo. gives me the goal of between 90 and 130 at all times. But
that is *my* goal. Not necessarily for everyone.

I don't think the advice is in question. I think the problem is the
constant going on about how it is Jennifer's advice. She didn't invent it.


kurtwh...@yahoo.com

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Jul 26, 2011, 11:43:06 PM7/26/11
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On Jul 26, 8:10 pm, "Julie Bove" <julieb...@frontier.com> wrote:

> Her advice is pretty much standard to what I was told by every Endo. I saw.
> Granted the first Endo. told me to keep <180.  Well he didn't actually tell
> me that but it was on something printed that he gave me.  When questioned he
> said that was old info and gave me the new guidelines.
>
> My current Endo. gives me the goal of between 90 and 130 at all times.  But
> that is *my* goal.  Not necessarily for everyone.
>
> I don't think the advice is in question.  I think the problem is the
> constant going on about how it is Jennifer's advice.  She didn't invent it.

Bingo! Give that woman a cee-gar! The smokeless kind of course. :)

Kurt

Budd Cochran

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Jul 27, 2011, 12:10:51 AM7/27/11
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And now you see why I don't follow the "advice" given by some, including
you.

I test 2X / day: before breakfast and before supper.

Mornings are running in the 103-109 range and evenings are in the 80-95
range. A1c's have been very good in the 5's

I'm still losing weight ... down to 215 from a max of 300 in '05, I doing
more work than I could a year ago, and my medical provider is reducing med
dosages.

Malcolm, you're parroting the "test till you drop from blood loss and my
skin looks like pure scar tissue" mantra and not allowing for good ol' YMMV
to fit in for others besides yourself.

And the fact that I'm doing so well without looking like an overused
pincushion, eating any kind of special diet (including ABC's non-biblical
garbage), nad being "overly active" just proves the point.

Newbies, listen up, there is no absolute method of treating Diabetes. Find
your own way by giving sensible ideas a try, but seek your own best method.

Budd

"Chris Malcolm" <c...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:99986b...@mid.individual.net...

trigonometry1972@gmail.com |

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Jul 27, 2011, 3:12:41 AM7/27/11
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On Jul 26, 6:32 pm, Chris Malcolm <c...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote:

I think my numb nuts GP (now fired)
resented that I tested at all and
would have skipped with joy if I'd gained weight and took
his holy water statins and BP meds. On the other hand,
he did allow readings above 100 aren't desirable.

Chris Malcolm

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Jul 27, 2011, 6:01:46 AM7/27/11
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kurtwh...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Jul 26, 6:32�pm, Chris Malcolm <c...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote:

>> The previous discussion about this has got rather polluted by
>> cross-posting trolls so I'm restarting it here.

> The only trolling and pollution I see is what you wrote in this post,

I was referring specifically to the cross-posting trolls. I'm pleased
to hear that your own filtering/killfiling/whatever prevents you from
seeing the religious cross posted crap from smc, but some of us in asd
don't operate any filtering or killfiling, and some of us kill any
threads in which that cross-posted crap has started. So it's wise not
to continue asd threads in which that kind of stuff has started.

> which is nothng more than a straw man premise built on something you
> say I said, but I never said.

I'd like to keep this thread as far as possible free from
misunderstandings, baseless accusations, etc. I apologise if I've
misrepresented your views in any way in what I wrote. I shouldn't have
tried to summarise your views on what is obviously a contentious
thread. I was referring to such remarks of yours as these:-

"Oh please. Jennifer did not invent the test, test, test method. My
endo advised me to do that over 20 years ago and my current endo
advises the same thing. I like Jennifer and thought she was a nice
person, but her advice is based on basic diabetes information I've
heard from many other sources over the years."

"It just seems foolish that some here make it out to be some kind of
magic formula that the professional medical community is unaware of.
Well, here's a newsflash: They are and they have been for quite some
time."

Whereas I think there is something unusual and helpful in Jennifer's
Advice which you are *unlikely* to get from your doctor, your endo,
the ADA's web pages, and other professional medical sources.

Note the "unlikely". Jennifer's Advice is not inconsistent with the
conventional wisdom about type 2 treatment. Some people will get the
same advice from their doc, endo, etc.. Some will try it out for
themselves despite apparently different advice from their doc, endo,
etc., and will find that when presented with the results of their
experiments that their doc, endo, etc. approves of them following
Jennifer's Advice.

I've not seen any report by anyone following Jennifer's Advice and
getting good results from it that anyone on their medical team
disapproves of what they're doing and advises them to stop.

So in those senses Jennifer's advice is consistent with medical
advice. It's also true that some medical professionals have been
advocating the kind of approach summarised in Jennifer's Advice for a
long time. That's where she got it from. But the advice of those
medics is not so easily found or understood by a newbie.

But it does seem to provide a useful different emphasis which seems to
have led many into more successful BG control than they likely would
have achieved had their medical team followed such standard treatment
guidelines as those the ADA provide for the guidance and education of
medical professionals.

In that sense I do think there is something usefully different and
novel about Jennifer's Advice.

--
Chris Malcolm

Julie Bove

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Jul 27, 2011, 6:14:41 AM7/27/11
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"Chris Malcolm" <c...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:99a60a...@mid.individual.net...

You *still* don't get it. Do you? It's not *her* advice! Just because she
said it once and saved it to her hard drive to copy again and again and
again doesn't make it *her* advice.


Paul L

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Jul 27, 2011, 6:55:42 AM7/27/11
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> Of course it is true that the ADA& Joslin don't say that aiming for

> and achieving such targets is bad, nor is that kind of low carbing
> bad. They would be quite happy for an individual doctor to give such
> advice to an individual patient based on their needs and
> capabilities. But generally speaking they don't expect it.
>
> For example the ADA's general Type 2 post mean BG target is to be
> under 180 at one or two hrs post meal, and if you're failing to meet
> that then the primary intervention is intensification of
> pharmacological treatment. See for example:
>
> "Medical Management of Hyperglycemia in Type 2 Diabetes: A Consensus
> Algorithm for the Initiation and Adjustment of Therapy"
>
> "A consensus statement of the American Diabetes Association and the
> European Association for the Study of Diabetes"
>
> http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/32/1/193.full
>
> I think these differences in emphasis are important.
>

Jennifer's advice has helped many many people. I am one. After three
months I looked like a pincushion but had a good understanding of how my
damaged metabolism handled different foods in many different situations.

The politics of why someone would ever devalue what she has done no
longer interest me.


Paul


kurtwh...@yahoo.com

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Jul 27, 2011, 12:26:30 PM7/27/11
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On Jul 27, 3:14 am, "Julie Bove" <julieb...@frontier.com> wrote:
> "Chris Malcolm" <c...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote in message

(snipping the novella)

> > In that sense I do think there is something usefully different and
> > novel about Jennifer's Advice.
>
> You *still* don't get it.  Do you?  It's not *her* advice!  Just because she
> said it once and saved it to her hard drive to copy again and again and
> again doesn't make it *her* advice.

You'e right he...doesn't "get it." And history proves that he will
never get it and instead will continue to write volumes about it,
spinning it into something so
unrecognizable from what it started out to be and misinterpreting/
misquoting what people actually say. Trying to explain that to him is
futile.

Kurt

kurtwh...@yahoo.com

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Jul 27, 2011, 12:38:56 PM7/27/11
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On Jul 27, 3:55 am, Paul L <p...@kbtrans.net> wrote:

> Jennifer's advice has helped many many people.   I am one. After three
> months I looked like a pincushion but had a good understanding of how my
> damaged metabolism handled different foods in many different situations.
>
> The politics of why someone would ever devalue what she has done no
> longer interest me.

Th only politics at play here is claiming that Jennifer's advice was
devalued. If someone here made the statement "People with diabetes
should use a glucose meter to check their bg" but some had never heard
of doing that and then others explained that it was something their
doctor advised them to do many many years ago, it would no doubt cause
the same problems in this newsgroup. That's what's going on here.

Hey, Ozgirl says the world is round. She's brilliant. Unlike the dopey
scientist I go to for my science information because he said the world
is flat. Therefore ALL scientists aren't as smart or helpful as Ozgirl
and she was the first to discover the world is round!!! ;)

Kurt

W. Baker

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Jul 27, 2011, 1:40:47 PM7/27/11
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kurtwh...@yahoo.com wrote:

: On Jul 27, 3:14?am, "Julie Bove" <julieb...@frontier.com> wrote:
: > "Chris Malcolm" <c...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote in message

: (snipping the novella)

: > > In that sense I do think there is something usefully different and
: > > novel about Jennifer's Advice.
: >

: > You *still* don't get it. ?Do you? ?It's not *her* advice! ?Just because she


: > said it once and saved it to her hard drive to copy again and again and
: > again doesn't make it *her* advice.

: You'e right he...doesn't "get it." And history proves that he will
: never get it and instead will continue to write volumes about it,
: spinning it into something so
: unrecognizable from what it started out to be and misinterpreting/
: misquoting what people actually say. Trying to explain that to him is
: futile.

: Kurt

I have noticedthat very often,when I,or others report talking to thie GPs
or Endos or other medical personel about their successwith Jennifers
advice,there is often a statement frmthe medicalprofessionalabout why the
need to test at 1 hour,as well as 2. It seems that medical personel do
not seemto thnkthat finding your high point( or reasonably close to it) is
important in controlling diabetes. What many of usfound important about
the 1 hor test was in correcting our diet to reduce or limit foods or
combinations of foods that caused our bgs to rise quite a lot in that
first hour, but may well have been resolved by 2 hours. It has helped us
establish the diets that work for us better than just testing at 2 hours.
This seems to be the concept that Jennifer has added to the sual pre and
post prandial testing that is sometimes discussed with some diabetic
patients by their medical professionals(It was never discussed with me
until I brough it up.).

If you don't need it, fine. If it didn't work for you because of other
conditions, fine, but don't keep trying to sell it short as "unoriginal"
"adds nothing new" etc.

Wendy

BlueBrooke

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Jul 27, 2011, 2:27:31 PM7/27/11
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On 27 Jul 2011 01:32:59 GMT, Chris Malcolm <c...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk>
wrote:

>Kurt has claimed that Jennifer's "test test test" Advice is nothing
>new or special, it's the pretty standard advice that medical
>professionals have been giving out (or should have been giving out)
>for for years if not decades before Jennifer started polishing her
>summary advice to newbies in asd and mhd.

Perhaps Jennifer's contribution was wording the information in a way
that the "great unwashed" can relate to -- specifically the
information about non-diabetic numbers, as well as testing at one
hour. Apparently, when the doctors said to test at one hour, it was
couched in such scientifically confusing terms as "don't test at one
hour because you don't need to know how high your BG goes," and we
just couldn't understand those big words.

Message has been deleted

Julie Bove

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Jul 27, 2011, 6:07:40 PM7/27/11
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"Paul L" <pa...@kbtrans.net> wrote in message
news:j0oqrm$ofn$1...@dont-email.me...

Nobody is devaluing anything. It's just not *her* advice!


Julie Bove

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Jul 27, 2011, 6:08:43 PM7/27/11
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Yeah. I think I'll go teach a pig to sing. I'll have a better shot at
that.


Peppermint Patootie

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Jul 27, 2011, 6:10:39 PM7/27/11
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In article <99986b...@mid.individual.net>,
Chris Malcolm <c...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote:

> Of course it is true that the ADA & Joslin don't say that aiming for
> and achieving such targets is bad, nor is that kind of low carbing
> bad. They would be quite happy for an individual doctor to give such
> advice to an individual patient based on their needs and
> capabilities.

No "of course" about it. Joslin clinicians told me NOT to low carb,
that it was dangerous to me. A Joslin nurse was shocked to hear I might
test at 1 hour PP. "But your glucose might not have come down by then!"
she exclaimed.

PP

Julie Bove

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Jul 27, 2011, 6:11:54 PM7/27/11
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Susan wrote:
> x-no-archive: yes

>
> On 7/27/2011 2:27 PM, BlueBrooke wrote:
>
>> Perhaps Jennifer's contribution was wording the information in a way
>> that the "great unwashed" can relate to -- specifically the
>> information about non-diabetic numbers, as well as testing at one
>> hour. Apparently, when the doctors said to test at one hour, it was
>> couched in such scientifically confusing terms as "don't test at one
>> hour because you don't need to know how high your BG goes," and we
>> just couldn't understand those big words.
>
> Actually, the advice that patients usually report is "wait until two
> hours after eating so the sugar has time to clear out of your blood."
> That's a quote from what my mother was told and many folks have told
> me that and reported it here as well.

So the sugar has time to clear out of your blood? That's a new one to me.
A REAL new one. If the sugar clears out of your blood, you'll be dead.
There is *always* sugar in the blood. Or there should be. Even when having
a hypo there is some sugar in there. Sheesh. I mean, freaking SHEESH! I
have never heard that. Never EVER heard that. Except for just not.
Sheesh! And I'll say it again. SHEESH!
>
> The other thing about Jennifer's advice that was so important and
> generous was that she prepared it as a response for worried newbies
> and always replied immediately to them by sharing it without having
> to write up something new each time. It was so helpful and highly
> regarded that it became a permanent part of the asd faq that I know I
> frequently provide to newly diagnosed diabetics here and elsewhere.
>
> The fasting recommendation is out of date, but on the whole, it's
> incredibly valuable. Anyone trying to diminish her accomplishment and
> generosity of her service to other diabetics is just a lowlife.

You are missing the point too. Sheesh.


Peppermint Patootie

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Jul 27, 2011, 6:16:30 PM7/27/11
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In article <j0ooed$b2m$1...@dont-email.me>,
"Julie Bove" <juli...@frontier.com> wrote:

> > In that sense I do think there is something usefully different and
> > novel about Jennifer's Advice.
>
> You *still* don't get it. Do you? It's not *her* advice! Just because she
> said it once and saved it to her hard drive to copy again and again and
> again doesn't make it *her* advice.

Oh, those plays you say are "by" that Shakespeare guy aren't really HIS.
Other people before him wrote stuff on the same themes, and every word
he used was used by someone before him!

So stop saying they're "by Shakespeare." They're not!

PP

Julie Bove

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Jul 27, 2011, 6:32:53 PM7/27/11
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Again... I gave people pretty much the same advice that Jennifer did. Lots
of people did. But it was never called *our* advice. Only *Jennifer's*
advice. Why? Because she took the time to save it to her hard drive then
copy and paste it?


outsider

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Jul 27, 2011, 6:44:57 PM7/27/11
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Logic obviously isn't your strong suit.

outsider

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Jul 27, 2011, 6:47:19 PM7/27/11
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Here is is again, the underlying rule in a.s.d.

"It doesn't so much matter what is said as it matters who said it."

I have no doubt that Jennifer was a wonderful participant. But here
they've canonized her into a saint.

Julie Bove

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Jul 27, 2011, 7:16:40 PM7/27/11
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Yes they have. And IMO if she really cared so much, she would have stayed.
But she didn't.


Chris Malcolm

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Jul 27, 2011, 8:11:53 PM7/27/11
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Budd Cochran <mr_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> And now you see why I don't follow the "advice" given by some, including
> you.

> I test 2X / day: before breakfast and before supper.

> Mornings are running in the 103-109 range and evenings are in the 80-95
> range. A1c's have been very good in the 5's

> I'm still losing weight ... down to 215 from a max of 300 in '05, I doing
> more work than I could a year ago, and my medical provider is reducing med
> dosages.

> Malcolm, you're parroting the "test till you drop from blood loss and my
> skin looks like pure scar tissue" mantra and not allowing for good ol' YMMV
> to fit in for others besides yourself.

No I'm not. Because my own doc because of UK NHS policy can't
prescribe that many test strips for a T2 I wasn't able to test nearly as
often as Jennifer recommended.

But in this thread I'm specifically discussing the general usefulness
of Jennifer's Advice. She recommended testing 8 times a day until
you'd established a good stable regime. Then you didn't need to test
so often.

People like me and Alan whose docs can't or won't prescribe that many
testing strips had to invent more economical variations of that kind
of testing regime. Alan devised an easily understood version for
newbies which IIRC he wrote up on a blog page which many found
useful. He also wrote up a useful page of testing methods for people
who had problems of bruising, scarring, etc. which prevented them from
doing as much testing as they wanted to do.

There's been lots of ingenuity and discussion of ways round the
problem of being unable or unwilling to test so much, even just for a
few months.

But I'm not addressing those kinds of issues in this particular
thread. And I'm certainly not telling anyone they have to follow
Jennifer's Advice at all, let alone follow it to the exact letter.

--
Chris Malcolm

Wes Groleau

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Jul 28, 2011, 12:38:48 AM7/28/11
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On 07-27-2011 13:40, W. Baker wrote:
> If you don't need it, fine. If it didn't work for you because of other
> conditions, fine, but don't keep trying to sell it short as "unoriginal"
> "adds nothing new" etc.

Who cares whether it's new or not? Good advice is good advice.

--
Wes Groleau

There are two types of people in the world …
http://Ideas.Lang-Learn.us/barrett?itemid=1157

Tiger Lily

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Jul 28, 2011, 12:42:29 AM7/28/11
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Parody not your strong suit?

Please, why are we making snide remarks to each other on a SUPPORT group!

Sider, my first statement was only illustrative, not meant personally.

kate

Chris Malcolm

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Jul 28, 2011, 5:57:54 AM7/28/11
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kurtwh...@yahoo.com wrote:

> On Jul 26, 6:32�pm, Chris Malcolm <c...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote:

>> The previous discussion about this has got rather polluted by
>> cross-posting trolls so I'm restarting it here.

> The only trolling and pollution I see is what you wrote in this post,

I thought you didn't operate any kind of kill file or filtering, Kurt?
How come you didn't see the usual cross-posted trollery from the
religious doc and his dog pack of taunters?

--
Chris Malcolm

Chris Malcolm

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Jul 28, 2011, 6:02:49 AM7/28/11
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And kept on improving it in response to comment and criticism. In
other words she put in the effort to develop a good summary which not
only she but others could cut and paste.

Would you have the same objections if it had got called "Jennifer's
Summary"?

--
Chris Malcolm

Julie Bove

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Jul 28, 2011, 6:37:38 AM7/28/11
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"Chris Malcolm" <c...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:99cqe9...@mid.individual.net...

Again you are missing the point. But I think you always will. I gave
pretty much the same advice as she did again and again. So did plenty of
others. In our own words. But did anyone ever say it was *our* advice?
No! Somehow it is always Jennifer's advice and she isn't even here any
more.


Damian

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Jul 28, 2011, 7:29:21 AM7/28/11
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Are you jealous?

You sound/read like you are.

Damian

outsider

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Jul 28, 2011, 8:47:06 AM7/28/11
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Why are you asking me? I'm the "new guy". You should be asking someone
who might know why, I'm only following the traditions established by
others.

Why aren't you asking the master of snide remarks in this forum, Susan.
Don't you read her postings?

> Sider, my first statement was only illustrative, not meant personally.

In this case I agree with Julie. Why are you, and others in this group,
making Jennifer into a saint? I think that qualifies as "personally".

And so do the questions you asked me this time around.

Ted

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Jul 28, 2011, 9:35:15 AM7/28/11
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Late into this argument
In this case I agree with YMMV

Jenifers advice is FINE, but how fragile is YOUR bg. Some people can get away with testing every day or so. If you are under good control, you only need to test enough to make sure you haven't drifted. If you are bouncing around, TEST TEST TEST. (although I think that 1 hr AND 2 hr postprandial a bit much)

One important thing to remember about testing. If you are not adjusting your meds with each test WHY BOTHER.

Study after study shows that frequent testing does not improve control in most people. That is because they keep a log, and three months later show it to their doctor, who changes their meds in some fixed pattern.

The only people who get benefit from frequent testing are those of us who dial up our dose based upon our current test.

As to the targets - I find ALL of them high. The AACE target for hospitalized patients is only 115. Joslin is notoriously high on everything, and ADA just tends to be VERY SLOW in adopting new guidelins.

outsider

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Jul 28, 2011, 10:00:27 AM7/28/11
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On 7/28/2011 8:35 AM, Ted wrote:
> Late into this argument
> In this case I agree with YMMV
>
> Jenifers advice is FINE, but how fragile is YOUR bg. Some people can get
> away with testing every day or so. If you are under good control, you
> only need to test enough to make sure you haven't drifted. If you are
> bouncing around, TEST TEST TEST. (although I think that 1 hr AND 2 hr
> postprandial a bit much)

> One important thing to remember about testing. If you are not adjusting
> your meds with each test WHY BOTHER.

The reasons are different for Type 1 and Type 2. Since I am T2 I limit
my discussion that that.

Because there are 3 factors I am aware of that affect my bg. Those are
diet, exercise, and medication.

> Study after study shows that frequent testing does not improve control

> in most people.That is because they keep a log, and three months later


> show it to their doctor, who changes their meds in some fixed pattern.

When I lived in the Chicago suburbs, I saw an endo every 3 months. His
therapy wasn't limited to the meds, we regularly discussed diet and
exercise as well. Meds weren't the first treatment, diet was (and
remains so today) closely followed by the amount of exercise I get,
within the limits imposed by other considerations such as pain in
various parts of my body.

> The only people who get benefit from frequent testing are those of us
> who dial up our dose based upon our current test.

Knowledge is power. If a person chooses not to use the information,
that's a whole separate issue.

> As to the targets - I find ALL of them high. The AACE target for
> hospitalized patients is only 115. Joslin is notoriously high on
> everything, and ADA just tends to be VERY SLOW in adopting new guidelins.

Without testing you have no way of meeting any guideline.

W. Baker

unread,
Jul 28, 2011, 10:50:20 AM7/28/11
to
Ted <theodore....@gmail.com> wrote:
: Late into this argument

: In this case I agree with YMMV

: Jenifers advice is FINE, but how fragile is YOUR bg. Some people can get away with testing every day or so. If you are under good control, you only need to test enough to make sure you haven't drifted. If you are bouncing around, TEST TEST TEST. (although I think that 1 hr AND 2 hr postprandial a bit much)

: One important thing to remember about testing. If you are not adjusting
your meds with each test WHY BOTHER.

For many of us, Ted, we adjust either exercise or food if we find nubers
running too high. In addition, some testing, once you have establishes
basic patters for yourself may help keep you on track. I find that
testing after dinner, sometime between 1 and 2 hours helps me to restrain
myself at the dinner table, just as weighing myself daily keeps me from
slowly accumulating more poundsthat can creep, unseen without the dail
check.


: Study after study shows that frequent testing does not improve control

in most people. That is because they keep a log, and three months later
show it to their doctor, who changes their meds in some fixed pattern.

Also-adjuct their eatin and exercising, not just meds.

: The only people who get benefit from frequent testing are those of us

who dial up our dose based upon our current test.

Wendy

Bob

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Jul 28, 2011, 10:58:43 AM7/28/11
to

Kurt's sh*t stirring has little to do with Jennifer's advice and
everything with his hatred for Chris Malcolm.
It doesn't matter what Chris says, Kurt is on him.
Bob

Bob

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Jul 28, 2011, 11:02:24 AM7/28/11
to

Yap Yap Yap Yap

Bob

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Jul 28, 2011, 11:05:39 AM7/28/11
to
On 7/26/2011 6:46 PM, kurtwh...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Jul 26, 6:32 pm, Chris Malcolm<c...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>> The previous discussion about this has got rather polluted by
>> cross-posting trolls so I'm restarting it here.
>
> The only trolling and pollution I see is what you wrote in this post,
> which is nothng more than a straw man premise built on something you
> say I said, but I never said. You are doing that kind of thing now on
> such a regular basis and in so many posts that when others do it they
> should be accused of "Pulling a Malcolmism." In other words, it is now
> your m.o. to own. Congratulations.
>

Cut the crap. You are the # 1 Shit stirrer here now. No one comes even
close. Go see a shrink.


> Kurt

Bob

unread,
Jul 28, 2011, 11:09:29 AM7/28/11
to

And you can't stand it. Because "they" would never canonize you,
although you are the most wonderful participant this group has ever seen.

Bob

unread,
Jul 28, 2011, 11:11:51 AM7/28/11
to

So start a decanonization campaign to set things right.

>

Bob

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Jul 28, 2011, 11:15:02 AM7/28/11
to

Because quite a few here are only here because they are not all here.

Bob

Tiger Lily

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Jul 28, 2011, 12:17:54 PM7/28/11
to
On 7/28/2011 6:47 AM, outsider wrote:
>> Please, why are we making snide remarks to each other on a SUPPORT group!
>
> Why are you asking me? I'm the "new guy". You should be asking someone
> who might know why, I'm only following the traditions established by
> others.

Let's start a new tradition! :D

>
> Why aren't you asking the master of snide remarks in this forum, Susan.
> Don't you read her postings?

Don't you read my replies?


>
>> Sider, my first statement was only illustrative, not meant personally.
>
> In this case I agree with Julie. Why are you, and others in this group,
> making Jennifer into a saint? I think that qualifies as "personally".

No one has made Jennifer into a saint. Jennifer worked the material she
was giving, in response to newbie questions, until she had a product she
felt was easy to understand, and as correct as the information available
at the time. She was the lady right there with the answer when it came
up. The ASD Web site was formed. Jennifer was asked if it was ok to
quote her on the web site. Now a name was put to her article. I think
it would be logical that her name be in the title of the article. No
one is freaking out over "Kate's Free Veggies"!


>
> And so do the questions you asked me this time around.

Weren't meant to be. I hope I've clarified things for you.

kate

Paul L

unread,
Jul 28, 2011, 1:16:34 PM7/28/11
to

responding to this particular statement.

> One important thing to remember about testing. If you are not
adjusting your meds with each test WHY BOTHER.

For the newly diagnosed T2s, frequent testing at the beginning provides
valuable information our entire lives ... info that will be useful long
beyond the time we test 8, 10, 12 times a day.

Paul

Janet

unread,
Jul 28, 2011, 2:16:22 PM7/28/11
to
Ted wrote:
> Late into this argument
> In this case I agree with YMMV
>
> Jenifers advice is FINE, but how fragile is YOUR bg. Some people can
> get away with testing every day or so. If you are under good
> control, you only need to test enough to make sure you haven't
> drifted. If you are bouncing around, TEST TEST TEST. (although I
> think that 1 hr AND 2 hr postprandial a bit much)
>
> One important thing to remember about testing. If you are not
> adjusting your meds with each test WHY BOTHER.

Because testing new foods, or the same foods at different times of the day
or in different quantities or combinations enables us to control our BG
through diet. Exercise is, of course, important in achieving control, but
for me the answer is always "more would be better," so I don't think of
testing as a way to guage how much I need. Maybe for someone who is a real
gym rat or who habitually exercises for hours per day...

I certainly don't test at the "test, test, test" levels every day at this
point. Some days I don't test at all, or just in the AM. (My FBG tends to
bounce around a bit, but I haven't been able to connect it to any specific
foods or behaviors the day before.)


W. Baker

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Jul 28, 2011, 4:04:57 PM7/28/11
to
Tiger Lily <m...@privacy.net> wrote:

: kate

kate, but you didn't invent those vegetables:-)

Wendy

Damian

unread,
Jul 28, 2011, 4:18:00 PM7/28/11
to
On Thu, 28 Jul 2011 07:47:06 -0500, outsider
<outs...@sometime.individual.net> wrote:

>On 7/27/2011 11:42 PM, Tiger Lily wrote:
>> On 7/27/2011 4:44 PM, outsider wrote:
>>> On 7/27/2011 5:16 PM, Peppermint Patootie wrote:
>>>> In article<j0ooed$b2m$1...@dont-email.me>,
>>>> "Julie Bove"<juli...@frontier.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> In that sense I do think there is something usefully different and
>>>>>> novel about Jennifer's Advice.
>>>>>
>>>>> You *still* don't get it. Do you? It's not *her* advice! Just because
>>>>> she
>>>>> said it once and saved it to her hard drive to copy again and again and
>>>>> again doesn't make it *her* advice.
>>>>
>>>> Oh, those plays you say are "by" that Shakespeare guy aren't really HIS.
>>>> Other people before him wrote stuff on the same themes, and every word
>>>> he used was used by someone before him!
>>>>
>>>> So stop saying they're "by Shakespeare." They're not!
>>>
>>> Logic obviously isn't your strong suit.
>>
>> Parody not your strong suit?
>>
>> Please, why are we making snide remarks to each other on a SUPPORT group!
>
>Why are you asking me? I'm the "new guy". You should be asking someone
>who might know why, I'm only following the traditions established by
>others.
>

Quick, everyone pretend to jump off a cliff.

Julie Bove

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Jul 28, 2011, 5:41:21 PM7/28/11
to

"Damian" <dam...@private.net> wrote in message
news:ouh2375lei27ftmo4...@4ax.com...

No.


Julie Bove

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Jul 28, 2011, 5:44:06 PM7/28/11
to

"Bob" <anothas...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:j0ru80$1rt$2...@dont-email.me...

Who the hell are you?


outsider

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Jul 28, 2011, 6:25:13 PM7/28/11
to

He's another big mouthed nobody in my killfile.

Ozgirl

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Jul 28, 2011, 7:10:24 PM7/28/11
to

"W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:j0sfd9$6qh$1...@reader1.panix.com...

She invented the IRC script though :)

Damian

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Jul 28, 2011, 7:25:31 PM7/28/11
to
On Thu, 28 Jul 2011 14:41:21 -0700, "Julie Bove"
<juli...@frontier.com> wrote:

sure.

Damian

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Jul 28, 2011, 7:26:58 PM7/28/11
to


ooh scary kill file that you attack from behind like a coward.

Tiger Lily

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Jul 28, 2011, 11:16:06 PM7/28/11
to

giggle

people still use that line :D

i've often wanted it to work on e-mail, would be much easier

maybe it'll fit into a sig file?

lol

kate

Tiger Lily

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Jul 28, 2011, 11:17:30 PM7/28/11
to
Julie, Bob has been around for a decade or so.....

Julie Bove

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Jul 29, 2011, 12:17:53 AM7/29/11
to

"Tiger Lily" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:99en29...@mid.individual.net...

Must be someone who was in my KF and is no longer.


Ozlover

unread,
Jul 29, 2011, 10:29:51 AM7/29/11
to

"Bob" and "Damian" are two twats who can't decide which one of them is
playing Mack this week.

--
Frank Slootweg,
"I don't know what your problem is, but I'll bet it's hard to pronounce."

kurtwh...@yahoo.com

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Jul 29, 2011, 12:03:31 PM7/29/11
to
On Jul 28, 7:58 am, Bob <anothascreen...@aol.com> wrote:
> Kurt's sh*t stirring has little to do with Jennifer's advice and
> everything with his hatred for Chris Malcolm.
> It doesn't matter what Chris says, Kurt is on him.
> Bob

Actually I only respond to Chris when he misrepresents the subject at
hand...I can't help it if that happens on so many of his posts.

But seriously, are you really saying something about another poster's
commenting too much or too derogatory after your years of doing that
to just about everything Alan S. posted here? Not that I didn't find
most of those comments either amusing or spot on, but come on
man...you might want to buy some Windex for those glass walls on your
house. lol

Kurt

Ozlover

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Jul 29, 2011, 4:13:15 PM7/29/11
to
kurtwh...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Jul 28, 7:58�am, Bob <anothascreen...@aol.com> wrote:
> > Kurt's sh*t stirring has little to do with Jennifer's advice and
> > everything with his hatred for Chris Malcolm.
> > It doesn't matter what Chris says, Kurt is on him.
> > Bob
>
> Actually I only respond to Chris when he misrepresents the subject at
> hand...I can't help it if that happens on so many of his posts.

+1

> But seriously, are you really saying something about another poster's
> commenting too much or too derogatory after your years of doing that
> to just about everything Alan S. posted here? Not that I didn't find
> most of those comments either amusing or spot on, but come on
> man...you might want to buy some Windex for those glass walls on your
> house. lol

+1

Of late, "Bob" has been quite hypo, and I'm not talking about his BG!
And he changes 'friends' and 'enemies' as quickly as other people change
their underwear.

--
Frank Slootweg,
"I was in the grocery store. I saw a sign that said 'pet supplies.'
So I did. Then I went outside and saw a sign that said 'compact cars.'"

Julie Bove

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Jul 29, 2011, 4:56:37 PM7/29/11
to

"Ozlover" <th...@ddress.is.invalid> wrote in message
news:99fue...@mid.individual.net...

I see.


outsider

unread,
Jul 29, 2011, 6:28:15 PM7/29/11
to

Actually, some time back Jim Dumas predicted Bob's imminent return over
in m.h.d. I wondered (and still wonder) how he knew in advance like
that. But it isn't important enough to spend more than a minute on
the topic and that time is up.

Wes Groleau

unread,
Jul 29, 2011, 10:06:22 PM7/29/11
to
On 07-28-2011 06:02, Chris Malcolm wrote:
> Would you have the same objections if it had got called "Jennifer's
> Summary"?

Insufficiently obfuscated. "Jennifer's Recapitulation"
is a step in the right direction.

--
Wes Groleau

There are two types of people in the world …
http://Ideas.Lang-Learn.us/barrett?itemid=1157

Wes Groleau

unread,
Jul 29, 2011, 10:10:56 PM7/29/11
to
On 07-28-2011 09:35, Ted wrote:
> Study after study shows that frequent testing does not improve control in most people.

The strange thing is that even though it is obvious to some of us
that the problem is not acting on the results, others somehow
manage to turn it into advice: "Don't test, because it doesn't help."

Julie Bove

unread,
Jul 29, 2011, 11:17:25 PM7/29/11
to

"outsider" <outs...@sometime.individual.net> wrote in message
news:99gqje...@mid.individual.net...

Oh wait! Is this the crazy Bob who says he eats no carbs?


Julie Bove

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Jul 29, 2011, 11:19:07 PM7/29/11
to

"Wes Groleau" <Grolea...@FreeShell.org> wrote in message
news:j0vp7g$s0d$1...@dont-email.me...

> On 07-28-2011 09:35, Ted wrote:
>> Study after study shows that frequent testing does not improve control in
>> most people.
>
> The strange thing is that even though it is obvious to some of us
> that the problem is not acting on the results, others somehow
> manage to turn it into advice: "Don't test, because it doesn't help."

I must say for the most part it doesn't help me. If only I could just low
carb and things would be fine. But it doesn't work that way for me. And I
have tried not eating when my BG is high only to have it rise higher.


outsider

unread,
Jul 30, 2011, 12:11:56 AM7/30/11
to
On 7/29/2011 9:10 PM, Wes Groleau wrote:
> On 07-28-2011 09:35, Ted wrote:
>> Study after study shows that frequent testing does not improve control
>> in most people.
>
> The strange thing is that even though it is obvious to some of us
> that the problem is not acting on the results, others somehow
> manage to turn it into advice: "Don't test, because it doesn't help."

Once in a while Wes gets something right. Tis is one of those times.

OTOH all that I've seen from Ted so far has ranged from outright
wrong to very marginally possible.

outsider

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Jul 30, 2011, 12:19:46 AM7/30/11