Should we aspire to eat meals that do not raise our BG at all?
Michael
do. Wendy brought up the question of whether this is an appropriate goal.
I really never thought about this. I have been working to eat like this
without considering whether or not it was the right thing to do. Is
there a health benefit from eating all BG neutral meals?
And, if we do accept a BG rise after a meal, how much of a rise is OK?
Michael
%
"Michael" <mic...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:s5jLm.169073$uO.2...@en-nntp-09.dc1.easynews.com...
if you're not in a coma its all good
Ozgirl
I don't like rises from meals. More for the fact that a significant rise
means my pancreas is being taxed to produce more insulin when it is not in a
healthy state. I aim for euglycemia at all times but I will accept the odd
(up to) 1 point (18 to you) rise here and there.
Julie Bove
"Michael" <mic...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:s5jLm.169073$uO.2...@en-nntp-09.dc1.easynews.com...
>Wendy brought up the question of whether this is an appropriate goal.
No because no one has totally stable BG. Even non diabetics will have
numbers that vary a little. And keep in mind that your meter is not 100%.
If you aim for a certain number and never want to vary from it, you'll only
wind up driving yourself crazy!
>
> I really never thought about this. I have been working to eat like this
> without considering whether or not it was the right thing to do. Is there
> a health benefit from eating all BG neutral meals?
I'm going to sound like Kurt here but that really depends on the meal.
Before we had insulin, they fed diabetics meals that were all fat. Why?
Because they realized this didn't raise their BG. Or perhaps not so much
that because they didn't really have a way of testing the BG. I believe
they could only do urine tests in those days. But they realized that this
was working to keep their sugar down. It didn't work so well to keep them
alive though and they died soon after the diagnosis. Now most likely this
was type 1 diabetics. Type 2's perhaps could have lingered longer and most
likely spent a good many years before they were even diagnosed given that
the method for testing was to taste the urine. If it was sweet, they were
diabetic. Given those parameters, a person could have had somewhat elevated
BG and it would have gone un-noticed.
So while that all fat diet did work for a while, it does not provide all the
nutrients the body needs. You need to take a look at your own diet and make
sure you are getting the RDA of all nutrients. If you are not, then perhaps
you need to see a dietician who can tell you what it is you need to be
eating.
My last visit with the dietician told me that I needed to be eating more
peppers, parsley and tomatoes. Oddly at the time I was craving those very
things. I can't remember now what it was that my body was lacking but those
foods were rich in it. Also keep in mind that not all dieticians are the
same. I think I saw good one. She did not push the old ADA diet as some
do.
>
> And, if we do accept a BG rise after a meal, how much of a rise is OK?
This is something you need to come to a decision with, your Dr. There is no
one answer that will fit all of us. Every body is different. If you have
additional medical concerns, this can help lead to your answer. And that
goal can change. When I was first diagnosed, my Dr. (I am not seeing him
now) wanted me to run to the high side. For him a number as high as 180
after eating was fine for me because at the time I was having really bad
hypos to the point of passing out. Why? I was running hyperthyroid and it
seemed to me that the food I ate was rushing through my body. So while I
might have had a spike, that spike was fleeting and I could soon be on the
floor, reaching for candy. I was also never to drop below 80 which I often
did.
I also think that Dr. didn't know much about reactive hypoglycemia which I
believe I also have/had! But when my thyroid became more stable (was still
hyper but not as bad), my BG began to rise and I couldn't seem to get it
down no matter what. I was put on more and more meds. Then I moved to
another state where I found a new Dr.
This Dr. wanted me at 110 or under prior to eating and no more than 140
after meals. Goals I did not often attain at that time. My thyroid still
was out of whack and we couldn't seem to agree on my meds. He wanted me on
Actos and I refused it.
Then I moved here to WA. First thing my Endo. did was take me off the
thyroid meds. And *boom*, my BG became more stable. Not necessarily in
range (range being the same as the previous Dr.) but more stable and
therefore somewhat easier to deal with. Hypos seemed to be a thing of the
past, but my BG was mostly too high. So we tried a variety of meds and now
I'm also on two types of insulin.
So the range my current Dr. has me on is between 90 to 130 at all times.
Doesn't matter if that's before eating, after eating, whatever. Because I
am using the insulin, I can compensate for it if it is on the high side
before I eat. Now my current problem is hypos again. Mostly these are
happening at night before bed. I am just guessing but it seems that my body
is the least insulin resistant around dinner time. Could be I don't need
the insulin then or I need a lot less of it. I don't know. I am waiting to
hear back from the Dr. I mail him my BG test results every two weeks. When
my husband was home this past week, my BG was up a bit due to stress I
think. I only had one hypo then. But the week prior I think I had 5 hypos.
And I had another one again last night. I am calling a hypo anything under
70, with or without symptoms because I don't always have them. I've not
seen a hard and fast rule for that either. I've seen 65 and I've seen 75 as
the number to use. I've also had quite a few numbers that are higher than
70 but below the 90 I am supposed to be at. So to compensate I am trying to
eat a bite or two of something between meals that will bring my BG up, but
also make it something that is healthy. Peas, beans, potatoes, high protein
pretzels, apples, etc. In other words, not candy.
What I have seen of your posts is that you seem to panic if your BG goes up
at all. It *is* going to go up. It *is* going to go down. You could pick
a random number. Say...80. It would be next to impossible for you to stay
at 80 all of the time. There are many things that affect our BG. Food is
but one of them. Stress, illness, exercise and even various hormone levels
in the body all affect it. In non diabetics, they may only vary by a few
points, but they will vary. We diabetics have the capacity to vary more.
We just have to decide on our range and do our best to keep it at that.
%
Loretta Eisenberg
what about what it is doing to your body. How healthy can it be.
Moderation they say is key to a happy life.
I cant give you what an accurate number might be but for me it is under
140 at one hour and under 120 at two hours post prandial. I have been
told to test from the last bite. Others from the first bite, Whatever
you do, just be consistent.
Loretta
jmo
--
I
Anon
"Susan" <su...@nothanks.org> wrote in message
news:7m6a3vF...@mid.individual.net...
> x-no-archive: yes
> I love to eat meals that don't raise my bg much or at all. I typically
> settle for a meal that doesn't raise my bg much more than 20 points,
> sometimes more, sometimes less, but I aim to keep my bg in a low normal
> tight range. I just don't sweat the blips the way you do.
>
> Susan
The days when I could eat a meal that would only raise my BG 20 points are
long gone. Today, without insulin injection, 3 carbs would raise my BG 20
points. It would be almost impossible to eat a 3 carb meal.
Wes Groleau
>> Wendy brought up the question of whether this is an appropriate goal.
>
> No because no one has totally stable BG. Even non diabetics will have
> numbers that vary a little. And keep in mind that your meter is not 100%.
Also, what do you mean by "not raising BG"?
If you mean that when you test, the level is the same as before
the meal and you don't care how high it went between the two tests,
then it's possible. (Though hopefully that spike between is mild!)
But if you mean no variation in BG at all, then a T2 could theoretically
do it but probably would not be a very "balanced" diet. As Julie said,
fat only, no carb, no protein.
--
Wes Groleau
German Teachers
http://Ideas.Lang-Learn.us/WWW?itemid=81
Michael
If I eat a typical meal for me, that might be eggs and fresh pork, my BG
level will drop after eating. I don't care that it drops, I am happy
about that. These breakfasts bring down that FBG.
I guess what I have been striving for is eating meals that do not move
my BG level upwards. I can eat my very large salad like I did tonight
and my BG remains the same or goes down a bit.
There are vegetables that I have tested that move my BG up. I just don't
eat them anymore. Protein produces negative going BG for me. Maybe I am
lucky that way. If I drink one of those 4 gram carb shakes that have 2
grams of fiber, I get about a 5 point rise. My morning FBG is finally
stabilizing. I would like it to stabilize in the 80s, that is not
happening. It has stabilized in the teens. Meaning it ranges from 110 to
117. The shakes have become a little vice for me. It does not get my BG
out of range but does go up. I discovered them recently. It is my little
guilty pleasure that does not blow my diet.
I am on a beta blocker called Coreg. That causes me a problem. Beta
blockers are simply not good for T2s. But it is a trade off for me
concerning my overall health. I take 25 mg of Coreg per day.
I think I actually eat a lot of very complex carbs. But, in the form of
the vegetables that I eat, they miraculously do not cause a BG rise. It
appears that I have been able to stop obsessing about small rises. That
might change if I got sick and saw some huge rise.
The consensus I get is that rises below 140 will allow a life without
complications. It is beginning to look like I will have a lifetime of
testing the effects of different foods on me. We are lucky to be able to
do our own low cost testing now.
Thank you all
Michael
BTW, I test at about 50 minutes after starting a meal or snack.
KROM
that's not possible to be as close to normal as possible.
Since there's no cure for diabetes yet there is control and trying to
maintain numbers and health as close to a non diabetic as possible.
How one achieves this is personal if they want to at all some do not.
Some wish to find ways of control through diet and exercise..some through
medicine..others both and some just pretend they don't have it and, or cant
control it.
Some people have difficulty finding and eating foods that don't raise
them..some don't care..others find meds work fine and others exercise to
control and some mix it up.
The best answer is do what's best for you and what makes you healthiest.
KROM
"Michael" <mic...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:s5jLm.169073$uO.2...@en-nntp-09.dc1.easynews.com...
Wes Groleau
> That's just not true; protein doesn't raise bg in a type 2, ample
> research and my own personal experience show. Meals like eggs with
> bacon, for example, don't raise my bg a single bit. The glucose
> provided from protein is very slow converting to glucose, hence its
> benefits for diabetic control.
Research I'm interested in. Otherwise, personal experience is not
persuasive because I would hypothesize that it depends on level of
insulin resistance as well as other factors.
In other words, if your IR is severe, and your insulin capacity is
limited, the protein conversion might outrun the absorption?
--
Wes Groleau
Teacher Tip: Personalize Exercises
http://Ideas.Lang-Learn.us/russell?itemid=1474
Wes Groleau
> If I eat a typical meal for me, that might be eggs and fresh pork, my BG
> level will drop after eating. I don't care that it drops, I am happy
> about that. These breakfasts bring down that FBG.
I would hypothesize that it's not the protein that's lowering it but the
fact that your body's main fuel is glucose and your diabetes is mild
enough that you are using the remaining glucose faster than you can
convert more out of the protein.
But Susan implies that all T2s can do this. So maybe...
--
Wes Groleau
What kind of smiley is C:\ ?
Susan
> I would hypothesize that it's not the protein that's lowering it but the
> fact that your body's main fuel is glucose and your diabetes is mild
> enough that you are using the remaining glucose faster than you can
> convert more out of the protein.
>
> But Susan implies that all T2s can do this. So maybe...
>
Just look up the insulin index of foods; protein does not convert to bg
fast enough to cause a rise in type 2, and by inducing a stronger
insulin response (insulin index) than carbs over a longer period it
prevents both hyperinsulinemia AND IR.
Susan
Kurt
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> Wes Groleau wrote:
> > But if you mean no variation in BG at all, then a T2 could theoretically
> > do it but probably would not be a very "balanced" diet. �As Julie said,
> > fat only, no carb, no protein.
>
> research and my own personal experience show. �Meals like eggs with
> bacon, for example, don't raise my bg a single bit. �The glucose
> provided from protein is very slow converting to glucose, hence its
> benefits for diabetic control.
>
Try testing at 3 hours and you may get a big surprise.
Kurt
Wes Groleau
> .... These data indicate that protein given
> with glucose will increase insulin secretion and reduce the plasma
> glucose rise in at least some type II diabetic persons.
"reduce the rise" meaning it doesn't rise as much.
It doesn't mean it went down.
Also note "at least some type II diabetic persons"
The authors are not willing to say we are all the same.
--
Wes Groleau
Film Review: El violin
http://Ideas.Lang-Learn.us/russell?itemid=1428
Wes Groleau
Susan quoted:
> The total amount of protein deaminated and the amino groups incorporated
> into urea was calculated to be 20–23 g. The net amount of glucose
> estimated to be produced, based on the quantity of amino acids
> deaminated, was 11–13 g. However, the amount of glucose appearing in the
> circulation was only 2 g.
In other words, BG increased but not as much as we expected.
> *****The peripheral plasma glucose concentration decreased by 1 mM after
> ingestion of either protein or water, confirming that ingested protein
> does not result in a net increase in glucose concentration, and results
> in only a modest increase in the rate of glucose disappearance.****
In other words, it DID decrease.
?!?!?
--
Wes Groleau
The man who says, "I can do it!" may sometimes fail.
The man who says, "Impossible!" will never succeed.
Wes Groleau
> I posted the research here years ago, lots of it, when Bob was posting
> about eating zero carb. Surely, you did research before stating that
> protein raises bg?
I did not state that. I stated that it _might_not_ do so
for some diabetics. So I guess you could say that I implied
that it would do so for others.
In any case, your comments motivate me to measure what it does
for one particular diabetic. :-)
--
Wes Groleau
Linguaphone and the place of grammar 1954
http://Ideas.Lang-Learn.us/barrett?itemid=1586
Peppermint Patootie
"Anon" <anonn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
By "3 carbs" do you mean 3 grams of carb or 3 x 15 grams of carb? I
can't imagine eating 45 grams of carb and not expecting my BG to spike
up into the wild blue yonder. I also have trouble imagining a meal
which added up to 3 grams of carb that didn't also leave me feeling
unsatisfied in some regard.
PP, T2
Ozgirl
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> Wes Groleau wrote:
>
>> for some diabetics. So I guess you could say that I implied
>> that it would do so for others.
>
> could, I suppose, raise it in a very advanced IDDM.
>
>>
>> In any case, your comments motivate me to measure what it does
>> for one particular diabetic. :-)
>>
>
Even the effect of the fats you eat? The inflammation which is causing
damage to your endothelium. I sincerely hope his results really are way
different to yours. Big price to pay for trying to avoid bg spikes.
Kurt
I doubt that anyone's results are like the ones Susan
reports...including Susan's! :)
Kurt
Wildbilly
"Ozgirl" <are_we_t...@maccas.com> wrote:
Could you give me a citation on this. I have Googled "fats,
inflammation" and only find references to body fat and not nutritional
fat.
Thank you.
--
�When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist.�
-Archbishop Helder Camara
http://tinyurl.com/o63ruj
http://countercurrents.org/roberts020709.htm
RodS
> In article <7mbfpvF...@mid.individual.net>,
> "Ozgirl" <are_we_t...@maccas.com> wrote:
>
>> Susan wrote:
>>> x-no-archive: yes
>>>
>>> Wes Groleau wrote:
>>>
>>>> I did not state that. I stated that it _might_not_ do so
>>>> for some diabetics. So I guess you could say that I implied
>>>> that it would do so for others.
>>> It raises bg in type 1s if they don't cover it with insulin. It also
>>> could, I suppose, raise it in a very advanced IDDM.
>>>
>>>> In any case, your comments motivate me to measure what it does
>>>> for one particular diabetic. :-)
>>>>
>>> I hope your results are as completely telling as mine are.
>> Even the effect of the fats you eat? The inflammation which is causing
>> damage to your endothelium. I sincerely hope his results really are way
>> different to yours. Big price to pay for trying to avoid bg spikes.
>
> Could you give me a citation on this. I have Googled "fats,
> inflammation" and only find references to body fat and not nutritional
> fat.
> Thank you.
Ozgirl is off on holidays for a couple of weeks you might ask her again
when she starts posting again :-0
(- -)
=m=(_)=m=
RodS T2
Australia
ra...@val.com
> inflammation" and only find references to body fat and not nutritional
> fat.
> Thank you.
Here are some references:
Regards
Randy
1.
Comparative effects of three popular diets on lipids, endothelial
function,
and C-reactive protein during weight maintenance
J Am Diet Assoc. 2009 Apr;109(4):713-7.
2.
Benefit of low-fat over low-carbohydrate diet on endothelial health
in
obesity.
Hypertension. 2008 Feb;51(2):376-82. Epub 2008 Jan 14.
Phillips SA, Jurva JW, Syed AQ, Syed AQ, Kulinski JP, Pleuss J,
Hoffmann
RG, Gutterman DD.
PMID: 18195164
3.
Flow-mediated dilatation is impaired by a high-saturated fat diet but
not by a high-carbohydrate diet.
Keogh JB, Grieger JA, Noakes M, Clifton PM.
4.
Low-Fat versus Low-Carbohydrate Weight Reduction Diets: Effects on
Weight
Loss, Insulin Resistance and Cardiovascular Risk A Randomised Control
Trial.
Bradley U, Spence M, Courtney CH, McKinley MC, Ennis CN, McCance DR,
McEneny
J, Bell PM, Young IS, Hunter SJ.
Diabetes. 2009 Aug 31. [Epub ahead of print]
PMID: 19720791
Chris Malcolm
> Exercise raises oxidative stress and ROS hugely.
> Should we limit it, too?
> What some folks don't understand is that you cannot live without the
> process and benefits of oxidative stress, it's a GOOD thing; it actually
> triggers antioxidant activity and when these balance is beneficial.
> Low carb, leafy, colorful foods are abundant in antioxidants. Grains
> and starches are abundantly oxidized before you even eat them and
> promote inflammation by triggering high insulin levels known to
> suppress steroid synthesis by your adrenals and their transport protein.
> Your steroids and the pituitary hormones they signal are responsible for
> inflammatory responses. Just look up corticotropin releasing hormone
> coupled with any inflammatory disorder you can think of.
> Repeatedly, research has demonstrated harm, not benefits, from limiting
> oxidative stress reactions with high doses of antioxidant supplements
> that limit oxidation, for example. Recent research has found that
> taking anti oxidants after exercise reduced the benefits of exercise
> http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17108-vitamin-supplements-may-cut-benefits-of-exercise.html
> A little information coupled with very little critical thinking is a
> very dangerous thing.
> The fact is, throughout the scientific literature it's demonstrated that
> oxidative stress *triggers* antioxidant activity. If you really want to
> limit oxidative stress, you could just stop exercising and sit on the
> couch all day instead.
> So now we know that eating saturated fat AND exercise both boost
> oxidative stress. We already saw that eating higher amounts of
> saturated fat results in lower concentrations of saturated fat in the
> bloodstream; this is the saturated fat that circulates to cells.
> Sounds like a super food, to me.
Good points. Note too that part of the body's immune defences depend
on imposing more oxidative stress than they can handle on the
pathogens. Protect yourself against oxidative stress, and you're also
protecting the enemies within against oxidative stress.
--
Chris Malcolm
Wildbilly
Susan <su...@nothanks.org> wrote:
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> Chris Malcolm wrote:
>
> > Good points. Note too that part of the body's immune defences depend
> > on imposing more oxidative stress than they can handle on the
> > pathogens. Protect yourself against oxidative stress, and you're also
> > protecting the enemies within against oxidative stress.
> >
>
> Thanks, Chris.
>
> Just try to live a healthy life without oxidative stress. :-)
>
> Susan
So let me risk what may be a stupid question, for some of you. Since
oxidative stress and inflammation seem to go hand in hand, would
ingesting yarrow, or chamomile be helpful, in that they are
anti-inflammatory, or can you not treat one without affecting the other?
Or, perhaps, you have a better question that I should have posed?