Vitamins
Julie Bove
them that I fill up every other week. I do take 6 prescription meds and
some herbal supplements as well. Each time I try to cut back on something,
the problem that I was taking it for seems to crop up. Except for some
things.
I was taking Ginkgo Biloba before for memory. Didn't help. But then I read
somewhere that it could help with hair loss. So I tried it for that and it
didn't seem to help.
I have some other vitamins that I foolishly bought that were for hair loss.
Turns out there is nothing in there that I wasn't already taking, although
perhaps not in that amount. And they certainly were overpriced!
I did find my regular multiple vitamin to be woefully lacking though. I was
taking a kosher, vegan vitamin from Swanson. It was so lacking in some
things that I found myself having to take additional B vitamins, Biotin, E
and also calcium. I think the extra calcium is pretty much a given though
because I don't think you can pack enough of it into a multiple. And since
I eat dairy only twice a week, and not much else with calcium in it, I
probably do need it.
I ran out of my multiple and needed to get more. I looked at Costco online.
Thought I had bought some but apparently not. I am happy to see that they
now have my blueberry extract and I also got some Ocuvite online. But the
multiple vitamins confused me.
I saw some One A Day for women over 50. Now you'd think that would be right
for me. I am a woman and I am over 50. But there was no iron in them and I
very much seem to need iron. I tend to go anemic if I don't get at least a
little of it. At times I have had to take iron pills in addition. But
*knock wood* I don't seem to need it now. Just a little in my multiple and
then I need to eat meat a couple of times a week.
I know several companies make a diabetes pack of vitamins. These might be
ideal. I really don't know. Never really looked at what was in them. I
issues I have with them are that they are expensive and they tend to come
many pills to a little plastic bag. I don't want to have to open all those
bags and put them in my container.
What I wound up buying today was the Kirkland Daily Multi. Seemed fairly
cheap and there are 500 pills in there so I won't have to buy them again for
a long time. But now the problem I see is that so much of what it contains
is 100%. So now maybe I don't need that extra E, D3 or even the B vitamins?
Not sure. I also take extra C in the morning when I take my MSM because I
read that you need to take it with to enhance absorbability of the MSM. And
Annette (who used to post here) said that when you take vitamin C, you also
need to take rutein (sp?) and other bioflavinoids so I make sure that I take
one with.
One thing for sure, according to the Cron-O-meter, my diet is sorely
lacking. This doesn't surprise me one bit given my food allergies and the
dietary limitations of my gastroparesis along with the diabetes.
I don't feel like listing everything that I take. But it's a handful in the
morning and night and about 5 pills (3 of them prescription) with dinner.
So what (if anything) do you take in terms of vitamins? Just a multi? Do
you take other stuff in addition? I want to make sure I have enough
vitamins in me. But I don't want to overdose either. I think maybe next
week I won't have to put in some of the extra ones I've been taking.
W. Baker
: So what (if anything) do you take in terms of vitamins? Just a multi? Do
: you take other stuff in addition? I want to make sure I have enough
: vitamins in me. But I don't want to overdose either. I think maybe next
: week I won't have to put in some of the extra ones I've been taking.
I take B12, B6, Folic acid, Vitamin D. Calcium citrate and my perscription
meds. These were all suggested by my endo.
Wendy
Julie Bove
"W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:i61nu6$p1j$3...@reader1.panix.com...
Do you know why the folic acid? I thought that was only for women who might
become pregnant. Thanks!
trigonometry1972@gmail.com |
I am not fan of a lot of the Kirkland vitamin stuff. I did buy a
bottle
some years ago for the dogs to grind up and put in their chow.
The tablets smelled truly awful and worse the vitamin E was racemic/
synthetic
and the vitamin D was the analog form D2. And the dogs tended
to turn you their nose at the chow when the ground tablet were in
the chow. Such that these days, the dogs get nutritional yeast
and the occasional fat soluble vitamin dose, and ground up
mineral tablets. The remainder ended up with grass clipping
and weed pile such that they made it into the garden mulch.
I don't think multi vitamin minerals formulas are a good idea.
Putting copper, iron, and manganese with vitamin C, riboflavin and
vitamin
E is not a good idea at all.
I'd suggest a separate B-vitamin capsule, a vitamin D3 gelcap
(Puritons Pride) , a vitamin
k2 gelcap (NSI), a high gamma vitamin E gelcap (Jarrow). And the rest
I'd consider on
an as needed basis. At least this is how I approach it and whether
this
fits you is a question only you can sort out. I take a host of other
supplements
many in bulk form for example gram plus doses of rutin and quercetin.
The latter is a light powder that doesn't stir in well liquids and
taking by
the teaspoonful has the risk of getting a lung full of the powder.
And lipoic acid given that it burns really really needs to be in a
capsule not
taken as a powder.
The dogs have just eaten and they are panting with pleasure
and full
stomachs..........................................................Trig
Trinkwasser
<juli...@verizon.net> wrote:
>One thing for sure, according to the Cron-O-meter, my diet is sorely
>lacking. This doesn't surprise me one bit given my food allergies and the
>dietary limitations of my gastroparesis along with the diabetes.
The other factor of course is how much you actually absorb, which is
going to make it difficult to make recommendations.
cshenk
> One thing for sure, according to the Cron-O-meter, my diet is sorely
> lacking. This doesn't surprise me one bit given my food allergies and the
> dietary limitations of my gastroparesis along with the diabetes.
Sorry about that Julie. Food alleries can make it hard to eat sometimes.
> So what (if anything) do you take in terms of vitamins? Just a multi? Do
> you take other stuff in addition? I want to make sure I have enough
> vitamins in me. But I don't want to overdose either. I think maybe next
> week I won't have to put in some of the extra ones I've been taking.
Actually they say 'mega vitamins' are generally not such a hot idea unless
there is a specific reason for one particular item.
I take a generic rite-aide 'one a day' multi plus a 600mg calcium suppliment
with added vitamin d. My husband also takes a fish oil pill and a
glucosamine/chonritin suppliment. (The G/C pills do not seem to work for me
so I adapted diet around it and do better that way).
Janet
> I saw some One A Day for women over 50. Now you'd think that would
> be right for me. I am a woman and I am over 50.
That's what I'm currently taking. I started out with a bottle of something
roughly equivalent that happened to be 50% off at the supermarket. When it
ran out I bought another "women over 50" multi at Rite-Aid, but I started to
think that the fruit and vegetable extracts it contained might be affecting
my BG, so I switched to the One-a-Day. I look for something with a little
calcium, good Bs, and no iron.
I take a couple other supplements--krill oil and ALA--but they aren't
vitamins. For the last month or so I took a twice-daily Zyflamend, which is
supposed to improve the anti-inflammatory response, because I was having
some muscle issues. It may or may not have helped resolve one of them.
W. Baker
: "W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com> wrote in message
I had a bad reading of I think it was CRP or some other C thing that
indicated high inflammation. Taking the low folic acid. B12 and B6, was
expected to lower the test numbe, hence my endo has me on it. I do
remember that no one is sure if the item tested is a cause or a marker, so
getting that number up may not be doing any good with the inflammation
issues involved. This is my menory from around 6 years ago, as it was
while I had my broken arm tht we discussed this. Of vourse, when I did
have the actively broken arm the levels wer incredibly high as there sure
was inflammation running around and that is what this test was related to.
He waited until the arm calmed down and retested me then
Wendy
Julie Bove
"Trinkwasser" <sp...@devnull.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:gah986t04gt9838sf...@4ax.com...
True.
Julie Bove
Julie Bove
Julie Bove
Hmmm... Interesting!
Ellen K.
"Julie Bove" <juli...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:i61p17$d4d$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
For homocysteine. This is especially important for people who are losing
weight.
trigonometry1972@gmail.com |
wrote:
> "Julie Bove" <julieb...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> news:i61p17$d4d$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com> wrote in message
> >news:i61nu6$p1j$3...@reader1.panix.com...
>
> >> : So what (if anything) do you take in terms of vitamins? Just a multi?
> >> Do
> >> : you take other stuff in addition? I want to make sure I have enough
> >> : vitamins in me. But I don't want to overdose either. I think maybe
> >> next
> >> : week I won't have to put in some of the extra ones I've been taking.
>
> >> I take B12, B6, Folic acid, Vitamin D. Calcium citrate and my
> >> perscription
> >> meds. These were all suggested by my endo.
>
> > Do you know why the folic acid? I thought that was only for women who
> > might become pregnant. Thanks!
>
> For homocysteine. This is especially important for people who are losing
> weight.
If you want to lower homocysteine, betaine aka trimethylglycine aka
TMG
will do so by way of a different biochemical pathway.
Trinkwasser
>Actually they say 'mega vitamins' are generally not such a hot idea unless
>there is a specific reason for one particular item.
One problem can be when the synthetic forms outcompete "natural" ones,
some may be "wrong-handed" molecules which interfere with the
right-handed ones.
belt and braces, I get as much as I can from a varied diet, and take a
mutivitamin and mineral occasionally as a top-up. If I take them
regularly my pee turns fluorescent which suggests especially the
riboflavin is going straight down the drain.
>I take a generic rite-aide 'one a day' multi plus a 600mg calcium suppliment
>with added vitamin d. My husband also takes a fish oil pill and a
>glucosamine/chonritin suppliment. .
I do vitamin D3 of which there is a chronic population shortage,
magnesium to outcompete the calcium in our very hard water, and alpha
lipoic acid. I also do fish oil depending how much fish I've eaten and
I'm currently re-trialling niacin, this time the genuine one.
Haven't died yet depsite the dire predictions.
>(The G/C pills do not seem to work for me
>>so I adapted diet around it and do better that way)
Yes this can happen, her GP recommended them for mother's arthritis
and even showed me some papers. They seem to work for most but by no
means all people who try them. After a few weeks she was able to drop
her painkillers, but they didn't help a neighbour at all
Ozgirl
"Trinkwasser" <sp...@devnull.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:bn5c86le1cki5pi5a...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 6 Sep 2010 10:13:28 -0400, "cshenk" <csh...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>>Actually they say 'mega vitamins' are generally not such a hot idea
>>unless
>>there is a specific reason for one particular item.
>
> One problem can be when the synthetic forms outcompete "natural" ones,
> some may be "wrong-handed" molecules which interfere with the
> right-handed ones.
>
> belt and braces, I get as much as I can from a varied diet, and take a
> mutivitamin and mineral occasionally as a top-up. If I take them
> regularly my pee turns fluorescent which suggests especially the
> riboflavin is going straight down the drain.
Not really, only the excess goes down the toilet. All excess water
soluble vitamins go down the dunny :) Its just that the B2 is more
obvious when taken in supplement form. I take my B's in yeast. It does
colour the urine somewhat, not as much as supplements though, mainly
because there are less B's in yeast than in the high potency B bomb
supplements, but having said that, I notice the difference between
supplements and yeast - it has a very calming effect - nature's
anti-depressant. Back in the day when I was having yeast smoothies 3
times a day I actually got the niacin flush. All these "side effects"
are a good indication that the products actually do contain what they
say.
>>I take a generic rite-aide 'one a day' multi plus a 600mg calcium
>>suppliment
>>with added vitamin d. My husband also takes a fish oil pill and a
>>glucosamine/chonritin suppliment. .
>
> I do vitamin D3 of which there is a chronic population shortage,
> magnesium to outcompete the calcium in our very hard water, and alpha
> lipoic acid. I also do fish oil depending how much fish I've eaten and
> I'm currently re-trialling niacin, this time the genuine one.
>
> Haven't died yet depsite the dire predictions.
>
>>(The G/C pills do not seem to work for me
>>>so I adapted diet around it and do better that way)
>
> Yes this can happen, her GP recommended them for mother's arthritis
> and even showed me some papers. They seem to work for most but by no
> means all people who try them. After a few weeks she was able to drop
> her painkillers, but they didn't help a neighbour at all
G/C blunted the osteoarthritis pain and stiffness for me but didn't fix
it. It also took weeks to kick in. The Krill Oil on the other hand -
which does the work of both the G/C and the fish oil - kicked in almost
straight away and fixed the pain and stiffness entirely. Flexibility
upon getting out of bed is the big test.
Boomer
"Susan" <su...@nothanks.org> wrote in message
news:8emt8v...@mid.individual.net...
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> On 9/7/2010 5:15 AM, trigonom...@gmail.com | wrote:
>
>
>> If you want to lower homocysteine, betaine aka trimethylglycine aka
>> TMG
>> will do so by way of a different biochemical pathway.
>
> I thought lowering homocysteine turned out to be useless at best, and
> harmful at worst, IIRC?
>
> Susan
Susan, I remember clearly reading as study about this. I cannot cite it. I
did stop taking folic acid after reading the study.
Michael
Chris Malcolm
They work well for my bad hip, but not at all for any other of my
problem joints. And they only help my hip if I combine them with
exercise. No, the exercise doesn't work on its own :-)
--
Chris Malcolm
Nicky
<juli...@verizon.net> wrote:
>So what (if anything) do you take in terms of vitamins? Just a multi? Do
>you take other stuff in addition? I want to make sure I have enough
>vitamins in me. But I don't want to overdose either. I think maybe next
>week I won't have to put in some of the extra ones I've been taking.
>
No vitamins at all; I get everything I need from my food. I'm also
suspicious about the benefits of many vits. I do take a glucosamine
tab and a cod-liver oil one too; and when I admit that summer's over,
I'll add a D3 tab for a few months.
Nicky.
T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
D&E, 150ug thyroxine
Last A1c 5.2% BMI 26
Julie Bove
"Nicky" <ukc802...@btconnect.com> wrote in message
news:5e6d86ts8t2osivvu...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 5 Sep 2010 19:46:57 -0700, "Julie Bove"
> <juli...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>>So what (if anything) do you take in terms of vitamins? Just a multi? Do
>>you take other stuff in addition? I want to make sure I have enough
>>vitamins in me. But I don't want to overdose either. I think maybe next
>>week I won't have to put in some of the extra ones I've been taking.
>>
>
> No vitamins at all; I get everything I need from my food. I'm also
> suspicious about the benefits of many vits. I do take a glucosamine
> tab and a cod-liver oil one too; and when I admit that summer's over,
> I'll add a D3 tab for a few months.
I wish I could do without. I get horrid, painful cracks at the sides of my
mouth if I don't get enough B vitamins.
cshenk
> "cshenk" wrote:
>>Actually they say 'mega vitamins' are generally not such a hot idea unless
>>there is a specific reason for one particular item.
> One problem can be when the synthetic forms outcompete "natural" ones,
> some may be "wrong-handed" molecules which interfere with the
> right-handed ones.
Yes and they started warning that some of the sports 'mega vitamins' can
actually backfire on you and cause damage. Lots of articles about it. Most
of the time it seems your body just dumps the excess but some can actually
interfere with other things.
> belt and braces, I get as much as I can from a varied diet, and take a
> mutivitamin and mineral occasionally as a top-up. If I take them
> regularly my pee turns fluorescent which suggests especially the
> riboflavin is going straight down the drain.
Hehe I don't have any problems but if I've posted here some of the daily
diet, you can probably tell I definately eat variety. I didn't used to but
as more ad more moves in the Navy took me to new places, new foods would
becon and I don't mean just a new spicing for a beanpot or something.
Almost 7 years living in Asia put the final nail in any sort of possible for
us to eat 'standard American' (whatever that is!).
>>I take a generic rite-aide 'one a day' multi plus a 600mg calcium
>>suppliment
>>with added vitamin d. My husband also takes a fish oil pill and a
>>glucosamine/chonritin suppliment. .
> I do vitamin D3 of which there is a chronic population shortage,
> magnesium to outcompete the calcium in our very hard water, and alpha
> lipoic acid. I also do fish oil depending how much fish I've eaten and
> I'm currently re-trialling niacin, this time the genuine one.
I though to trial niacin for Don. Wanted to investigate a bit. The lipitor
makes him slightly dizzy. First I want to see what the fish oil alone is
doing.
> Haven't died yet depsite the dire predictions.
;-)
>>(The G/C pills do not seem to work for me
>>>so I adapted diet around it and do better that way)
>
> Yes this can happen, her GP recommended them for mother's arthritis
> and even showed me some papers. They seem to work for most but by no
> means all people who try them. After a few weeks she was able to drop
> her painkillers, but they didn't help a neighbour at all
Yeah. Here's straight scoup on it best I can find and lots of sources
(Doctors, articles, studies etc). To explain the interest, I have DDD
(Degenerative disc disease) with a progressive pattern and husband Don has
artritis (not severe but even a little can make you miserable). My Doctor
couldnt 'prescribe' G/C because it wasn't allowed but he could strongly
recommend and even in Sasebo, we could get it.
What I found was that some people do not properly absorb some versions. You
could need a different version (powder vice pill, different mixing agent
etc). It's believed that most of the people who 'fail to get effect'
actually didn't pay attention to the label and that it can take 2 months for
any notable effect. If you start in fall then as winter comes, your only
notable effect *might* be you didn't hurt worse as it got colder. There are
others who really can tell a dramatic difference and it may take only 3-4
weeks for them. Don is like that. Whatever is in there, he absorbs
perfectly. It makes a dramatic difference in how his hips and knees feel.
We tried for 6 months with me and no notable effect. Local Sasebo Doc had
Don and me in a study on sodium dietary effect changes on Americans living
off local Japanese diets largely (If you've never done a sodium reactive
testing, it's interesting). Anyways, while discussing diet, this came up
and he suggested I swap and gave ideas of foods just right for natural
sources of this. I had to tweak somewhat (I run naturally high cholestrol
but amd diet controlled now). Things like bone broths (Consomme really),
edible fish bones (since he already knew we ate fish as much as the locals
did), bone marrow (in moderation). Anyways, this one *did* work for me.
Want a shocker? It works for my Dog too. The doggie G/C wasn't working as
best as any could tell and they were wanting to start him on tramadol. I
started feeding him my bone broths (cat gets some too, can't hurt and they
are made salt free. We add stuff to ours later if needed). Vet took him
off the G/C 3 months later and said to watch for changes. None other than
he continued to get better. Cat has the best kidney and liver function they
see as well which we both attribute to her liquid intake of a healthy (cat
balanced) extra.
Summary though is the pills are better *if* used long term and they work for
you on G/C. There probably is a formula of the pill/powder that 'likes me'
but I haven't tried? Doesn't matter. Nothing wrong with natural sources if
a person is a foodie and doesn't mind crockpotting (slow cooker) a batch on
the weekend! Takes about 10 mins of your time to do, and 12-20 hours to
cook out right (longer is better, you get more goodness in the broth).
Oh, if there are any here on a limited income who know they want to take
that suppliment but can't afford it, let me know. Cheapest is to get a
crockpot/slowcooker as it costs pennies in electric to make a batch and you
might find the stuff in the pot is just what you are throwing out after a
meal.
cshenk
> "Trinkwasser" wrote in message
>> Yes this can happen, her GP recommended them for mother's arthritis
>> and even showed me some papers. They seem to work for most but by no
>> means all people who try them. After a few weeks she was able to drop
>> her painkillers, but they didn't help a neighbour at all
>
> G/C blunted the osteoarthritis pain and stiffness for me but didn't fix
> it. It also took weeks to kick in. The Krill Oil on the other hand - which
> does the work of both the G/C and the fish oil - kicked in almost straight
> away and fixed the pain and stiffness entirely. Flexibility upon getting
> out of bed is the big test.
Tell me more on 'Krill Oil'? I may want us to try it. Though Don is doing
pretty well on the G/C, I have stiffness issues that are not really quite
the same but _may_ be related at least in part to early OA or RA. (Doc's
have not figured it out as it's almost totally spinal). Don on the other
hand has arthritis of the normal sort and not particularily severe for age
60 when you get down to it though it makes him miserable some days.
cshenk
> Trinkwasser wrote:
>> "cshenk" wrote:
>> belt and braces, I get as much as I can from a varied diet, and take a
>> mutivitamin and mineral occasionally as a top-up. If I take them
It sounds like Trink is a bit like me in habits at least for vitamins?
>>>(The G/C pills do not seem to work for me
>>>>so I adapted diet around it and do better that way)
>> Yes this can happen, her GP recommended them for mother's arthritis
>> and even showed me some papers. They seem to work for most but by no
>> means all people who try them. After a few weeks she was able to drop
>> her painkillers, but they didn't help a neighbour at all
> They work well for my bad hip, but not at all for any other of my
> problem joints. And they only help my hip if I combine them with
> exercise. No, the exercise doesn't work on its own :-)
Thats what we found with Don's issues. Nor do the suppliments alone work
for him. I have a dear friend who uses square dancing to get around this
and it has been working for him for 20 years now. I'm trying to talk Don
into it (Come on Don, strutt your stuff! ;-)
Alan S
<are_we_t...@maccas.com> wrote:
>The Krill Oil on the other hand -
>which does the work of both the G/C and the fish oil - kicked in almost
>straight away and fixed the pain and stiffness entirely.
I'm going to try Krill Oil when my present stock of fish oil runs out.
Do you have any suggestions on brands, quality, price and sources?
Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d & e; metformin 1500mg
--
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com (Privacy On Forums And The Web)
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com (Buenos Aires, Argentina)
Alan S
wrote:
>On Sun, 5 Sep 2010 19:46:57 -0700, "Julie Bove"
><juli...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>>So what (if anything) do you take in terms of vitamins? Just a multi? Do
>>you take other stuff in addition? I want to make sure I have enough
>>vitamins in me. But I don't want to overdose either. I think maybe next
>>week I won't have to put in some of the extra ones I've been taking.
>>
>
>No vitamins at all; I get everything I need from my food. I'm also
>suspicious about the benefits of many vits. I do take a glucosamine
>tab and a cod-liver oil one too; and when I admit that summer's over,
>I'll add a D3 tab for a few months.
>
>Nicky.
I share your suspicions.
My list is like Trinks. Fish oil, glucosamine (arthritis, I know of no
food source), magnesium (cramps), D3 (lots of sun here but I'm also
prone to skin cancers) and I'm trialling ALA.
cshenk
> I wish I could do without. I get horrid, painful cracks at the sides of
> my mouth if I don't get enough B vitamins.
Hi Julie, I think that is B12? Be careful as B vitamins are one of the ones
where too much is not a 'good thing'. Scratching head, low B12 causes
problems with iron absorption if I recall right? Docs tend to note anemia
and tell you to take more iron while what you need is a bit more B12.
Slight break----
Happy google time as you had me trying to remember what foods had which.
Most B's seem to split between meats and green leafy veggies. B12 was
probably a good one to get from chicken livers if you like them. Oh and I
was right on the symptoms for it. Mouth cracking and anemia both.
cshenk
> My list is like Trinks. Fish oil, glucosamine (arthritis, I know of no
> food source), magnesium (cramps), D3 (lots of sun here but I'm also
> prone to skin cancers) and I'm trialling ALA.
Hi Alan S.
http://www.nutritional-supplements-health-guide.com/glucosamine-natural-source.html
Excerpt: : If you are looking for a reliable Glucosamine source you do not
need to go far. The connective tissue of animals, such as chicken marrow,
and other animal materials, such as shell fish exoskeletons, all contain
Glucosamine. However, most of us do not eat marrow, or bones for that
matter. The only way we would really get Glucosamine in our diet is if we
eat animal marrow, or make it a constant habit to eat the broth made from
these animal bones. Most of us do not eat these products so our diet is
deficient. That is why supplementing it is so important."
This links sorta to a message I posted a little bit ago today. You'll
come-a-cropper over it in due time and probably before this one (grin).
Julie Bove
I have anemia off and on. I know I need extra B, but my Endo. has me taking
even more B12. The extra I take on my own is a B and C complex.
Alan S
Thank you; very interesting.
About the only way I get it naturally is from the stocks I make where
I boil ham or roast bones and chicken carcasses. But I doubt that I
use enough of that to be effective.
I tried glucosamine supplementation after developing acute arthritis
in my wrists in 2006 and it has been remarkably effective.
cshenk
> "cshenk" wrote
>> Slight break----
>> Happy google time as you had me trying to remember what foods had which.
>> Most B's seem to split between meats and green leafy veggies. B12 was
>> probably a good one to get from chicken livers if you like them. Oh and
>> I was right on the symptoms for it. Mouth cracking and anemia both.
> I have anemia off and on. I know I need extra B, but my Endo. has me
> taking even more B12. The extra I take on my own is a B and C complex.
That works! It's actually pretty rare to not absorb right from pills from
what I've seen. Ok, I'm weird on *one* item (G/C) but not really on any
others.
Do they know why you seems to need extra? It probably isn't diet lack
related.
cshenk
> "cshenk" wrote:
>>http://www.nutritional-supplements-health-guide.com/glucosamine-natural-source.html
(snippies)
> Thank you; very interesting.
Welcome!
> About the only way I get it naturally is from the stocks I make where
> I boil ham or roast bones and chicken carcasses. But I doubt that I
> use enough of that to be effective.
>
> I tried glucosamine supplementation after developing acute arthritis
> in my wrists in 2006 and it has been remarkably effective.
I totally agree. I wish the pills worked for me.
Ozgirl
"cshenk" <csh...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:mKGdnSkGvsLBLhvR...@giganews.com...
Over the past few months I am noticing it appearing in more and more
pharmacies and health food stores.
Apart from the relief from the osteoarthritis pain I attribute it to my
sudden rise in HDL, something I couldn't get up with any other method
including lots of exercise. I currently use one I ordered online in a
lot of 3 to make things easier but have since seen it in shops
(different brands though). PharmaGenics brand is my current:
http://www.getprice.com.au/Pharmagenics-Neptune-Krill-Oil-300Mg-Capsules-X-60s-Gpnc_319--44801671.htm I
have also used the OmegaGen brand (my first try of it):
http://www.pharmacyonline.com.au/omegagen-cardio-500mg-cap-x-30?utm_source=getprice&utm_medium=cpc
I have now seen the Swisse brand at my local Chemist Warehouse.
Krill oil: "http://www.neptunekrilloil.org/"
>
>
Ozgirl
"Alan S" <loralgtwei...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:rndd86hbleo62grnl...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 7 Sep 2010 21:20:08 +1000, "Ozgirl"
> <are_we_t...@maccas.com> wrote:
>
>>The Krill Oil on the other hand -
>>which does the work of both the G/C and the fish oil - kicked in
>>almost
>>straight away and fixed the pain and stiffness entirely.
>
> I'm going to try Krill Oil when my present stock of fish oil runs out.
> Do you have any suggestions on brands, quality, price and sources?
I answered accidentally to Carole, I wrote some applicable stuff for
Aussies there :)
Ozgirl
to Aussies in your post :)
"cshenk" <csh...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:mKGdnSkGvsLBLhvR...@giganews.com...
> Tell me more on 'Krill Oil'? I may want us to try it. Though Don is
trigonometry1972@gmail.com |
> Julie Bove <julieb...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> : So what (if anything) do you take in terms of vitamins? Just a multi? Do
> : you take other stuff in addition? I want to make sure I have enough
> : vitamins in me. But I don't want to overdose either. I think maybe next
> : week I won't have to put in some of the extra ones I've been taking.
>
> meds. These were all suggested by my endo.
>
When setting your B-12 supplemental intake consider this article.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15911731
Read the full article or at least scan it. It takes a considerable
dose to improve B-12 status in these subjects.
Chris Malcolm
> "Alan S" wrote
>> My list is like Trinks. Fish oil, glucosamine (arthritis, I know of no
>> food source), magnesium (cramps), D3 (lots of sun here but I'm also
>> prone to skin cancers) and I'm trialling ALA.
> Hi Alan S.
> http://www.nutritional-supplements-health-guide.com/glucosamine-natural-source.html
> Excerpt: : If you are looking for a reliable Glucosamine source you do not
> need to go far. The connective tissue of animals, such as chicken marrow,
> and other animal materials, such as shell fish exoskeletons, all contain
> Glucosamine. However, most of us do not eat marrow, or bones for that
> matter. The only way we would really get Glucosamine in our diet is if we
> eat animal marrow, or make it a constant habit to eat the broth made from
> these animal bones. Most of us do not eat these products so our diet is
> deficient. That is why supplementing it is so important."
More than ten years ago, well before diabetes diagnosis, and possibly
before I was an undiagnosed diabetic or pre-diabetic, increasing
problems with joints and tendons led to me starting drinking cod liver
oil, adding a glucosamine supplement, eating a can of sardines (which
includes the bones etc. around once a week, and regularly boiling up
the carcass of the chicken we eat once a week to make a stock from the
bones, skin, and connective tissues. I make a point of not throwing
away any of the fat and skin etc. of the chicken. What comes off in
cooking gets incorporated into the gravy.
Then I make a kind of Chicken Mulligatawny from the carcass. That's a
kind of curried chicken thick soup or thin stew.
I simmer the carcass for about half an hour, then pour off the fluid
onto the chopped vegetables. I then pull off all the meat and add to
the soup. While doing that I rip all the joints apart. I then boil all
the carcass remnants up again while cooking the soup. When the soup is
cooked I decant the fluid from the boiled remnants into the soup,
which is ready for the first servings.
I then boil up the remnants again and leave to stand overnight. I
repeat that a few times over a few days, by which time the liquid gas
started settling into a jelly when cold. I then boil that up and pour
the liquid into the soup. That's my attempt to extract all the
connective tissue goodness from the carcass.
But I still take a glucosamine supplement and drink cod liver oil
because they seem to have additive effects on top of the soup and
sardines.
Since I started that regime more than ten years ago, along with
gradually increasing my ecercise as my fitness improved, almost all of
my joint problems have slowly but surely improved. That improvement
got a boost after discovering I was diabetic and lowering my carb
intake to reduce blood sugar spikes. Also contributing must have been
retiring and having the time to take a lot more outdoor exercise.
So I can't really separate out which elements have been the most
important in improving my joint problems. But when I started all this
I was prone to a cramping up lower back if I sat around too much,
limped very slightly due to a bad hip, had to use walking poles on
hills because of my knees, had to wear stout climbing boots in rough
country because of a painful big toe joint which screamed if I knocked
it, and quickly developed thumb and wrist pains if I carried stuff in
my hands for too long.
Today I don't limp, my tendency to the lower back cramping up is much
less, I can prance about in sandals in rough country without fearing
hurting my bad toe (it's still a bit sore and with restricted
movement, but much less and doesn't complain about being knocked
about), I no longer need walking poles in hills, I no longer get sore
wrists even carrying quite heavy stuff for miles, and my thumbs hurt
far less. My knees have got so much better I can now do a one legged
squat and stand ups. I can just manage two with the right leg. The
left leg really struggles to do one. The left leg problem is the bad
hip, which complains a bit at that exercise.
I can't really tell what of all these various things has helped my old
joints, but there's no doubt at all that at 67 I'm in much less pain,
move better, and am a lot tougher, than I was at 57. People who
haven't seen me for several years tell me it's amazing how much better
I look. I certainly feel much better. I sometimes even do a bit of
running and jumping just because I feel like it, which I certainly
never did ten years ago. Ten years ago I felt really old.
I think in the most general terms I was suffering from a combination
of lack of exercise and whole animal deficiency. IMHO the modern human
has become ridiculously picky about which bits of the animals they eat
and which they throw away. Not to mention all the extra stuff the meat
industry now adds to our meat.
You can keep your "healthy" whole grains. I recommend eating healthy
whole animals! :-)
--
Chris Malcolm
Trinkwasser
wrote:
>Trinkwasser <sp...@devnull.com.invalid> wrote:
>> Yes this can happen, her GP recommended them for mother's arthritis
>> and even showed me some papers. They seem to work for most but by no
>> means all people who try them. After a few weeks she was able to drop
>> her painkillers, but they didn't help a neighbour at all
>
>They work well for my bad hip, but not at all for any other of my
>problem joints. And they only help my hip if I combine them with
>exercise. No, the exercise doesn't work on its own :-)
Yes very likely they only work on some of the damage factors not
others.
Trinkwasser
>"Trinkwasser" wrote
>> "cshenk" wrote:
>> belt and braces, I get as much as I can from a varied diet, and take a
>> mutivitamin and mineral occasionally as a top-up. If I take them
>> regularly my pee turns fluorescent which suggests especially the
>> riboflavin is going straight down the drain.
>
>Hehe I don't have any problems but if I've posted here some of the daily
>diet, you can probably tell I definately eat variety. I didn't used to but
>as more ad more moves in the Navy took me to new places, new foods would
>becon and I don't mean just a new spicing for a beanpot or something.
>Almost 7 years living in Asia put the final nail in any sort of possible for
>us to eat 'standard American' (whatever that is!).
Yes I picked up a lot of "foreign" cuisines from people who brought
them here and ring the changes. Last night was another marrow with a
sauce of streaky bacon, beef mince, coloured peppers, garlic,
mushrooms, olives, oregano, tomato puree, spices etc. kind of a
mediterranean take on an old English dish. I have a crab which I'll
stir fry Thai style with chillies, ginger, lime juice etc. and some
more lamb chops to have with masses of runner beans. When you don't
have to stuff your face with starch all the time you can fit in a
*lot* of nutrition.
>I though to trial niacin for Don. Wanted to investigate a bit. The lipitor
>makes him slightly dizzy. First I want to see what the fish oil alone is
>doing.
Apart from the niacin flush, which will wear off, it is reputed to
raise BG, but anecdotally this seems to be rare - like a lot of things
it seems only to affect certain individuals.
All interesting stuff. Yes eating only the best muscle meat eliminates
various sources of nicronutrients. My parents inherited a "marrow
spoon" which was small with a long ornate handle and we used to scoop
the marrow out of bones. Making the broth also collects a lot of
nutrients otherwise thrown away.
Trinkwasser
B12 is one that can be hard to obtain from the diet if you have any
form af malabsorbtion, mother has had regular injections for years
following a couple of lengths of instestine being removed.
trigonometry1972@gmail.com |
>
> > If you want to lower homocysteine, betaine aka trimethylglycine aka
> > TMG
> > will do so by way of a different biochemical pathway.
>
> I thought lowering homocysteine turned out to be useless at best, and
> harmful at worst, IIRC?
>
> Susan
Really, one JAMA article on a study with methodical flaws? Lowering
homocysteine is good just don't expect it to be hugely helpful late in
the game. Though while not reducing the odds of an
IM, the intervention ift still if memory serves reduces the size of
area of dead tissue.
Raising homocysteine is a good way to speed the degeneration of
the microvascular circulation, advance down the road to dementia,
and worsen other cardiovascular disease.
JAMA and the ADA are of the same ilk.......................Trig
trigonometry1972@gmail.com |
> "Susan" <su...@nothanks.org> wrote in message
>
> news:8emt8v...@mid.individual.net...
>
> > x-no-archive: yes
>
>
> >> If you want to lower homocysteine, betaine aka trimethylglycine aka
> >> TMG
> >> will do so by way of a different biochemical pathway.
>
> > I thought lowering homocysteine turned out to be useless at best, and
> > harmful at worst, IIRC?
>
> > Susan
>
> Susan, I remember clearly reading as study about this. I cannot cite it. I
> did stop taking folic acid after reading the study.
>
> Michael
Lowering homocysteine is good though doing it by way of folic acid
beyond
some point MAY have some downsides. And even doing by that route
likely has more positives than minuses overall though not for specific
persons.
Reducing homocysteine can be done with betaine.
Increasing FA late in life may not ideal (speeding cancer) and a life
long
high level of FA may well the best intervention (preventing cancer).
Conventional advice tends to result in conventional (fatal)
results..................Trig
cshenk
> "cshenk" wrote
>> Tell me more on 'Krill Oil'? I may want us to try it. Though Don is
> Over the past few months I am noticing it appearing in more and more
> pharmacies and health food stores.
(snippies)
Thanks! Sounds like worth trying. In fact, I think I recall seeing it at
Rite Aide? I need to go there soon anyway for some prescription refills so
will check then.
cshenk
> Sorry I thought I was answering Alan so you have some info relating more
> to Aussies in your post :)
hehe no harm. I googled local resources too. Interestingly, it's showing
as possibly helpful for those with RA version Lupus which I've been tested
for (negative so far but some do not have the same test results). Docs
still scratching their heads and trying to figure out why my spine is just
slowly degrading. About 50% say I have it, the other 50% say I may be early
stages or one of the ones who just don't show it on blood tests (Doc told me
possibly as high as 20% in *some* studies may not show the classic blood
test anomolies but those studies don't release their full methodolgy so are
suspect).
BTW, don't freak out over the name 'Lupus'. Not only is the life expectancy
much better today, it's that *if* I have it, the version I have isn't the
one that attacks organs. AKA, I'd be the 40 year life expectancy after
diagnosis set. That takes me to 90 ;-)
It's clear that *if* I have it and just test negative, I have only the joint
issue type. One of the Docs at my PCM says he's seen several people with
issues like mine (some tested negative, some not) and did some research.
Based on what he found, he flagged my record as 'possible early Lupus, do
not prescribe medications counter-indicated for Lupus patients without very
careful review'. Also 'annual blood test assement for Lupus'. So far,
nothing but some odd type of anemia which by diet, I shouldn't have and iron
suppliments seem to work.
Anyways, I keyed right in on that and found other sites saying same for
Krill Oil and then a few feedbacks that it seems for some to reduce Lupus
flares for them. Grin, a harmless benefit that may help a little *if* I
have it in early form.
PS: if anyone is curious, I have sites that list the symptoms in laymans
terms. It's a big mimic disease though so self diagnosis isn't good this
time.
cshenk
Oh yes! I forgot to mention that. Folks who have had to have portions of
stomach or intestine removal can have problems with many vitamins and
absorbing them. Grin, you know me. Curious as a kitten, I read up on such
(layman's level). Seems anything that shortens the path much can cause
problems and some sections are pretty much specific receptors for particular
things so if you lose that section or shorten it, you dont get the dietary
effect from foods and have to either megadose in suppliments or get shots.
I was pretty sure Julie didn't have anything like that going on but then
maybe she does and I just don't know it.
Scratching head. 'Celiac disease' seems to come to mind. Sorry, no time to
do a happy google tonight on that. Have to rush through and go to bed early
because doing training with Naples Italy site tomorrow and need to be up and
at 04:30am my time and perky at work by 05:30am my time.
Julie Bove
I don't have that but I do have gastroparesis. That's damage to the vagus
nerve to the stomach, in my case caused by diabetes. So that means at times
the food can just sit there. If my stomach is acting up or if I eat too
much hard to digest meat or certain vegetables (large salads being a big
culprit) the undigested food comes back up. So certainly there can be
absorption problems for me. I am really not sure at what point in the
digestion process the vitamins from food are released into the system.
I also take Metforim (diabetes med) and it has been known to cause low
levels of vitamin B12.
cshenk
> cshenk wrote:
>> http://www.nutritional-supplements-health-guide.com/glucosamine-natural-source.html
>
>> Excerpt: : If you are looking for a reliable Glucosamine source you do
>> not
>> need to go far. The connective tissue of animals, such as chicken marrow,
>> and other animal materials, such as shell fish exoskeletons, all contain
>> Glucosamine. However, most of us do not eat marrow, or bones for that
>> matter. The only way we would really get Glucosamine in our diet is if we
>> eat animal marrow, or make it a constant habit to eat the broth made from
>> these animal bones. Most of us do not eat these products so our diet is
>> deficient. That is why supplementing it is so important."
>
> More than ten years ago, well before diabetes diagnosis, and possibly
> before I was an undiagnosed diabetic or pre-diabetic, increasing
> problems with joints and tendons led to me starting drinking cod liver
> oil, adding a glucosamine supplement, eating a can of sardines (which
> includes the bones etc. around once a week, and regularly boiling up
> the carcass of the chicken we eat once a week to make a stock from the
> bones, skin, and connective tissues. I make a point of not throwing
> away any of the fat and skin etc. of the chicken. What comes off in
> cooking gets incorporated into the gravy.
Grin, excellent although you can remove the skin and fat before cooking the
broth if your either desire for taste or wish to reduce the fat calories. I
am not sure if you can cast off the fat after cooking by cooling as it might
be the essential parts bind to the fat, but if you eat that too in a gravy,
'it's all good'.
> Then I make a kind of Chicken Mulligatawny from the carcass. That's a
> kind of curried chicken thick soup or thin stew.
> I simmer the carcass for about half an hour, then pour off the fluid
> onto the chopped vegetables. I then pull off all the meat and add to
> the soup. While doing that I rip all the joints apart. I then boil all
> the carcass remnants up again while cooking the soup. When the soup is
> cooked I decant the fluid from the boiled remnants into the soup,
> which is ready for the first servings.
>
> I then boil up the remnants again and leave to stand overnight. I
> repeat that a few times over a few days, by which time the liquid gas
> started settling into a jelly when cold. I then boil that up and pour
> the liquid into the soup. That's my attempt to extract all the
> connective tissue goodness from the carcass.
Heheh not same method as me but i think we have same *effect*. I'll add
mine at the bottom.
> But I still take a glucosamine supplement and drink cod liver oil
> because they seem to have additive effects on top of the soup and
> sardines.
That works!
> Since I started that regime more than ten years ago, along with
> gradually increasing my ecercise as my fitness improved, almost all of
> my joint problems have slowly but surely improved. That improvement
> got a boost after discovering I was diabetic and lowering my carb
> intake to reduce blood sugar spikes. Also contributing must have been
> retiring and having the time to take a lot more outdoor exercise.
Absolutely I can see how it would work out that way. The difference in my
dog who doesn't seem to get any benefit from the G/C pill/powder and is on
bone broth and marrow bones is extremely obvious. The vet is now for those
critters who have issues that aren't responding the the suppliments adding a
leaflet that a small percent seem to have that problem then how to make bone
broth the easy and pet healthy way. He's not in a position to make any
major studies but is finding it a useful suggestion that is sometimes
working in the harder cases among the elderly cats and dogs. (Supplimenting
a normal pill/powder is just like for us, better if absorbed right as you
can get a better concentration so this is for when that isn't working at
all).
(snippies)
> I can't really tell what of all these various things has helped my old
> joints, but there's no doubt at all that at 67 I'm in much less pain,
> move better, and am a lot tougher, than I was at 57. People who
> haven't seen me for several years tell me it's amazing how much better
> I look. I certainly feel much better. I sometimes even do a bit of
> running and jumping just because I feel like it, which I certainly
> never did ten years ago. Ten years ago I felt really old.
> I think in the most general terms I was suffering from a combination
> of lack of exercise and whole animal deficiency. IMHO the modern human
> has become ridiculously picky about which bits of the animals they eat
> and which they throw away. Not to mention all the extra stuff the meat
> industry now adds to our meat.
> You can keep your "healthy" whole grains. I recommend eating healthy
> whole animals! :-)
LOL! I love it and am so happy you have found something years ago that
helped make things much better for you!
I agree a whole animal diet has it's aspects. The Inuit who had little
access to any plant material suffered only the dietary deficiencies of lack
of food in lean seasons as a general rule. Oh it wasn't perfect but they
didn't get scurvy even though they had never seen a fruit and might have
lived on polar ice for months at a time. They worked out over thousands of
years just what to eat from the animals (and rare greenery) to get the most
benefit.
;-) read a book on it once.
Oh, my method as promised.
I use baked chicken carcasses (or duck or other bones). We'll make a meal
of either a small 2-3 lb chicken or maybe over a week or so a few 'Cornish
hens' or some baked thighs. We eat that just like anyone else. The
difference is after we pluck off the meat we want for 'whatever', we save
the bones broken up a bit in a plastic baggie in the freezer (I have an
extra chest freezer so this is easy). Joints and all. We have a separate
baggie for 'gently knawed' (meaning a thigh/wing we ate) so we can separate
that set from what we serve guests later if we use the broth. Heheh some
might not be careful but I figure if you came to my house, you'd appreciate
your broth used in whatever dish, didn't formerly have my teeth marks on the
bones used to make it. *In family* that is ok with us. Kinda like taking a
bite of your hubby's apple then smooching for a bit.
Ok so now you have a baggie of frozen bones, bit of meat, joints and such.
Next, the most cost effective method involves a Crockpot (often called a
slowcooker in other places, a removable ceramic insert with a glass top into
a frame with a heating element normally just at the bottom but may add the
sides). In some places I have been told it is an electric Dutch oven slow
cooker. I hope I have described it well enough though to be understood no
matter where the reader is. These devices draw little power in comparison
to a stove top method and use a slow heat build with a ceramic insert to
concentrate it.
The difference is you can extract every bit of 'goodness' from those bones
at little cost. Last time I ran a check, 3 hours stove top simmer at my
current location cost me $1.02. Crockpot cost was $0.17 for 24 hours. Far
more important to *me* was I had to tend the boiling stovetop version
instead of just dumping in the bones, water, and walking away. There was no
discernable difference in the taste but the stove top one didn't 'gel' as
much. Gel'ing this time is a sign as it chills to room temp, that it has
what you want as in G/C.
Load bones in Crockpot and add just enough water to cover. You can add
veggies if you wish but with basic barebone stock, we add those flavors
later and since we also pet feed from this and some of my 4foots don't
tolerate onions etc, we leave them out. Do not add salt at this stage. It
will not make any difference and if pet feeding, they are not as salt
tolerant as we are.
Remove any skin left on there if you wish. We remove all.
Let it do it's thing on low for at least 12 hours but 24 is better. Sorry
folks, it's called a S*L*O*W cooker for a reason. Decant over a colander
into a stock pot and toss the bones. Put in a keeper what you need for the
next 3 days in the fridge and freeze the rest for up to 6 months in baggies
that suit your use style.
The carcass of a 2 KG (4 lb) chicken will generate appx 3L (over 1/2 gallon)
usable stock from the bones many people just throw out.
Giggle factor: some folks buy chicken backs to make stock while tossing out
the baked chicken carcass bones.
Alan S
>When setting your B-12 supplemental intake consider this article.
>
>www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15911731
>
>Read the full article or at least scan it. It takes a considerable
>dose to improve B-12 status in these subjects.
I supplement B12 daily.
My supplement of choice is rump steak, followed closely by Atlantic
salmon, pork sausages, beef casseroles or lamb chops.
I also enjoy oysters and other mollusks, but don't eat them as often
as I would like.
http://www.ars.usda.gov/SP2UserFiles/Place/12354500/Data/SR22/nutrlist/sr22w418.pdf
Alan S
Thx. Checking out the sources.
Alan S
>Oh yes! I forgot to mention that. Folks who have had to have portions of
>stomach or intestine removal can have problems with many vitamins and
>absorbing them.
Just a lateral thought.
Would bariatric or other weight loss surgeries create a similar
problem for vitamin or micronutrient malabsorbtion?
Alan S
wrote:
>cshenk <csh...@cox.net> wrote:
Thanks Chris. I do much the same, but not quite to the level you do.
I'll review my cooking techniques with that in mind.
Very little of the animal gets thrown away in this house.
Alan S
>Grin, excellent although you can remove the skin and fat before cooking the
>broth if your either desire for taste or wish to reduce the fat calories. I
>am not sure if you can cast off the fat after cooking by cooling as it might
>be the essential parts bind to the fat, but if you eat that too in a gravy,
>'it's all good'.
I include skins in my chicken stock. I strain the results after
several hours simmering and store the liquid in the fridge in a narrow
tall jug.
Next day the fat has risen to the top and solidified which makes it
simple to remove. The remaining stock is usually softly jellied, not
liquid at all until it is re-heated. I freeze some of that in
stew-size portions and the remainder as ice-cubes for instant use in
stir-fries and similar.
Julie Bove
> On Wed, 8 Sep 2010 17:46:51 -0400, "cshenk" <csh...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>>Oh yes! I forgot to mention that. Folks who have had to have portions of
>>stomach or intestine removal can have problems with many vitamins and
>>absorbing them.
>
> Just a lateral thought.
>
> Would bariatric or other weight loss surgeries create a similar
> problem for vitamin or micronutrient malabsorbtion?
I believe so.
trigonometry1972@gmail.com |
> On Wed, 8 Sep 2010 02:21:32 -0700 (PDT), "trigonometry1...@gmail.com
>
> |" <trigonometry1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >When setting your B-12 supplemental intake consider this article.
>
> >www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15911731
>
> >Read the full article or at least scan it. It takes a considerable
> >dose to improve B-12 status in these subjects.
>
> I supplement B12 daily.
>
> My supplement of choice is rump steak, followed closely by Atlantic
> salmon, pork sausages, beef casseroles or lamb chops.
>
> I also enjoy oysters and other mollusks, but don't eat them as often
>
> Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
> d & e; metformin 1500mg
> --
> Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com(Privacy On Forums And The Web)http://loraltravel.blogspot.com(Buenos Aires, Argentina)
As long as your absorption is good, this is fine and the forms will
be superior to the cyano functional group synthetic form. But if
absorption
is impaired due to low stomach acidity or lack of the secretion of
the protective factor for the B-12 such persons will have a slowly
declining B-12 status.
I take the supplement as it cheaper and simpler than to be tested
and dealing with some half baked PCP.
Posted from the declining American Empire.......................Trig
Trinkwasser
>x-no-archive: yes
>
>On 9/7/2010 5:15 AM, trigonom...@gmail.com | wrote:
>
>
>> If you want to lower homocysteine, betaine aka trimethylglycine aka
>> TMG
>> will do so by way of a different biochemical pathway.
>
>I thought lowering homocysteine turned out to be useless at best, and
>harmful at worst, IIRC?
You may have misremembered <evil grin>
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0012244
this just came up on last night's BBC news.
I think like CRP it depends *how* you lower it as to whether or not it
is beneficial
This looks interesting considering some of the connections between
diabetes, Alzheimers and amyloid plaque, and of course inflammation in
general
cshenk
cshenk
>'cshenk' wrote:
>>Grin, excellent although you can remove the skin and fat before cooking
>>the
>>broth if your either desire for taste or wish to reduce the fat calories.
>>I
>>am not sure if you can cast off the fat after cooking by cooling as it
>>might
>>be the essential parts bind to the fat, but if you eat that too in a
>>gravy,
>>'it's all good'.
>
> I include skins in my chicken stock. I strain the results after
> several hours simmering and store the liquid in the fridge in a narrow
> tall jug.
Some do that way too. I'm just not sure if some portion of the 'goodies'
bind to the fat so I tend to remove the skin. I might render it to
crasklin's though for us and the pets (grin). I save the fat and use it to
grease my bird-feeder pole to keep the squirrels out of the birdseed.
> Next day the fat has risen to the top and solidified which makes it
> simple to remove. The remaining stock is usually softly jellied, not
> liquid at all until it is re-heated. I freeze some of that in
> stew-size portions and the remainder as ice-cubes for instant use in
> stir-fries and similar.
I do same (some fat will be at the top even if not cooked with skin) and
it's easy to remove. Nice gel formation when chilled means you did it
perfect and got all the 'goodness'. I freeze in 1 cup or so baggies and the
dog gets 1/2 cup a day, cat gets 3 TB, and the rest almost always gets used
that day in 'something'. It's real fast to defrost an extra baggie or just
put it in a pan of hot water (or remove from baggie and put straight in pan
on low).
cshenk
> "cshenk" wrote:
>>as more ad more moves in the Navy took me to new places, new foods would
>>becon and I don't mean just a new spicing for a beanpot or something.
>>Almost 7 years living in Asia put the final nail in any sort of possible
>>for
>>us to eat 'standard American' (whatever that is!).
> Yes I picked up a lot of "foreign" cuisines from people who brought
> them here and ring the changes. Last night was another marrow with a
> sauce of streaky bacon, beef mince, coloured peppers, garlic,
> mushrooms, olives, oregano, tomato puree, spices etc. kind of a
> mediterranean take on an old English dish.
Sounds lovely! I'd love the recipe if you ever jotted it down (yes, I can
handle metrics which is a bit rare for USA folks but all of us can convert
back and forth believe it or not!). It would make a very nice filling for a
baked winter squash (you might call them pumpkins) or perhaps a bell pepper
or tomato?
The only slight problems will be need to know if that is a thick mince or
regular if it matters in the dish (I know OZ standards for that, been there
?10? ?15? times) and finding a pork cut here that is like OZ 'bacon'. One
of the suprising differences you don't really hear about except from foodies
if it comes up, is the complete difference in flavor of our 'bacon'. It's
so different, an American may not even recognize yours as 'bacon' if
blindfolded. Um, let me revise that. 'probably will _not_ recognize the
favor is bacon'. The cut isn't that radically different but the curing
process is completely different. If your area sells our type, I've not seen
it nor have any of my OZ buddies I talk with on other groups (most of which
have been to the USA so know our version). I'm thinking I can find an
uncured hunk of what you call 'streaky bacon' which will be pretty much what
you use to try the recipe. Oh for you, while not the 'same' there is
something a bit close you will find in OZ. 'Canadian Bacon' somes somewhat
close in flavor (texture and looks wrong) and 'Bacos' (look for imported
from USA version) will have the flavor but not the texture of the bacon you
mean.
> I have a crab which I'll
> stir fry Thai style with chillies, ginger, lime juice etc. and some
> more lamb chops to have with masses of runner beans. When you don't
> have to stuff your face with starch all the time you can fit in a
> *lot* of nutrition.
Definately. We eat more starches than folks here do, but probably less meat
and fat. The trade off works for us but not for diabetics in general. I
was about to leave that 'qualifier' off but I see for some, there's a bit of
variation (grin).
>>I thought to trial niacin for Don. Wanted to investigate a bit. The
>>lipitor
>>makes him slightly dizzy. First I want to see what the fish oil alone is
>>doing.
> Apart from the niacin flush, which will wear off, it is reputed to
> raise BG, but anecdotally this seems to be rare - like a lot of things
> it seems only to affect certain individuals.
Ok, we have to check on that but we have a home monitor. Don runs a bit
high and they finally prescribed a med but he won't take it. It makes him
feel 'off'. I keep him on a sodium 'reduced' diet as based on us both being
volunteer guinea pigs when in Sasebo for a sodium reactive testing group of
Americans eating mostly the higher sodium diet of Japan. (Short version, he
is sodium reactive in BP but only when over 1500 MG a day while I show no
discernable sodium reaction at all no matter what the level. Charlotte was
too young to be part of the test group but since she was eating the same
stuff, we checked her BP too and she didn't show anything but that might be
age related).
So, he doesn't run super high but thanks for the warning as we'll check that
for a few weeks to make sure it doesn't make it get too high.
(lots of snippies below)
>>>>(The G/C pills do not seem to work for me
>>> Yes this can happen, her GP recommended them for mother's arthritis
>>Yeah. Here's straight scoup on it best I can find and lots of sources
>>What I found was that some people do not properly absorb some versions.
>>and he suggested I swap and gave ideas of foods just right for natural
>>sources of this. I had to tweak somewhat (I run naturally high cholestrol
>>but amd diet controlled now). Things like bone broths (Consomme really),
>>edible fish bones (since he already knew we ate fish as much as the locals
>>did), bone marrow (in moderation). Anyways, this one *did* work for me.
> All interesting stuff. Yes eating only the best muscle meat eliminates
> various sources of nicronutrients. My parents inherited a "marrow
> spoon" which was small with a long ornate handle and we used to scoop
> the marrow out of bones. Making the broth also collects a lot of
> nutrients otherwise thrown away.
I've seen those. Mostly I make bones where it isn't needed because they are
cut to about 1 inch 'tall'. I make them up in many ways. One may be a
method useful to you and you can trade back your method?
Take a muffin/cupcake tin and fill the cup with about 1 TB of that same
thick connsome broth we both make. (an 'icecube' frozen one will do!). I
have a screen sort for a splatter guard when making bacon and such that is
all metal and round. I place this over the 'cupcake/muffin tin' and then put
a marrow bone on top. Bake until marrow is soft. You can often lift the
bone right off and the marrow will be on the screen with some of it's
goodness in the broth below. Other times, the marrow will be in the bone
still (a little drips below I am sure but can't see it) and you can make a
pretty presentation of the bone with marrow about a plate then have the
broth with your dinner. Sometimes i dip the marrow out and add it to the
broth in a little Japan type tea cup set (no handles, just small ceramic
cups of about 1/3 cup).
Ok, I showed you mine, now show me yours! (snicker).
cshenk
> "cshenk" wrote
>>>>Most B's seem to split between meats and green leafy veggies. B12 was
>>>>probably a good one to get from chicken livers if you like them. Oh and
>>>>was right on the symptoms for it. Mouth cracking and anemia both.
(snippies!)
>> I was pretty sure Julie didn't have anything like that going on but then
>> maybe she does and I just don't know it.
>> Scratching head. 'Celiac disease' seems to come to mind. Sorry, no time
>> to do a happy google tonight on that. Have to rush through and go to bed
>> early because doing training with Naples Italy site tomorrow and need to
>> be up and at 04:30am my time and perky at work by 05:30am my time.
Went well with Naples this morning (their afternoon).
> I don't have that but I do have gastroparesis. That's damage to the vagus
> nerve to the stomach, in my case caused by diabetes. So that means at
> times the food can just sit there. If my stomach is acting up or if I eat
> too much hard to digest meat or certain vegetables (large salads being a
> big culprit) the undigested food comes back up. So certainly there can be
> absorption problems for me. I am really not sure at what point in the
> digestion process the vitamins from food are released into the system.
That doesn't sound like much fun!
On the time of releasing, it varies on what it is. Think of them as 'time
delayed pills' with various release times and you got it. In some of them,
they just float about until they get to the right part of the intestine that
has the receptors to 'suck them in'. I know, not a fancy description but
that is a layman translation of what those pages say.
> I also take Metforim (diabetes med) and it has been known to cause low
> levels of vitamin B12.
Interesting! Hehe one more new thing learned today! BTW is it Metforim or
Metaformin? No not picking on you if you made a typo, just checking if it's
a version difference or naming difference in some areas. I have a level of
dyslexia that can make it sometimes a little confusing here at times so may
have mis-read some notes and mentally inserted the wrong name someplace.
Please don't be schocked if you see me do that sometimes or show a bit of
'eclectic spelling'. Obviously this dyslexia isn't impeding my ability to
use the written language. (Excellent special teachers when I was young but
it doesn't go 'away' more like gets trained around as best as it can).
Julie Bove
It's Metformin. If people are adding an "a", they are spelling it wrong.
cshenk
> "cshenk" wrote:
>>Oh yes! I forgot to mention that. Folks who have had to have portions of
>>stomach or intestine removal can have problems with many vitamins and
>>absorbing them.
> Just a lateral thought.
I love lateral thinking!
> Would bariatric or other weight loss surgeries create a similar
> problem for vitamin or micronutrient malabsorbtion?
Yes. Bariatric though can vary and not all are 'gastric bypass' (meaning to
omit a section of the intestines from the food loop which is essentially
same as removal). Some bariatrics are just reduction in stomach size and if
the problem is actually excessive food intake, it will expand again.
Current recommended 'good practice' is lapband surgery which has few of the
risks, most of the benefits, and is reversable totally. If you want contact
with a friend of mine who just had that done and is working with the
results, email me (address not munged) and I will forward your email to him
and he can start up talking with you if you like. Nothing like solid
person-to-person interchange if considering such.
Oh, lapband won't change anything with absorbtion. You basically kinda
'squeeze the stomach smaller' and have to go in for adjustments now and
again. You *do* have to change diet for a period of time to purees pretty
much for a bit (a few weeks then you get a bit larger stuff and at about 3
months you get small 'normal to you foods'.)
My friend isn't a diabetic (far as I know) but it's obvious diabetes meds
would have to be carefully adjusted during this time and I'd say a diabetic
with lapband would be told to test very often and adjust as needed.
Laymans version: Lapband is reversable, comes with diet changes in stages,
and leaves you feeling 'full' with far less food. If the diet is followed
correctly, success rates are rather high and danger of procedure lower than
others due to reversability. Thats what I read at least.
cshenk
> "cshenk" wrote
>> Interesting! Hehe one more new thing learned today! BTW is it Metforim
>> or Metaformin? No not picking on you if you made a typo, just checking
>> if it's a version difference or naming difference in some areas. I have
>> a level of dyslexia that can make it sometimes a little confusing here at
>> times so may have mis-read some notes and mentally inserted the wrong
>> name someplace.
> It's Metformin. If people are adding an "a", they are spelling it wrong.
Grin, or I'm adding an 'a'! Sorry, when it comes to spelling, I am not
always firing on all 4 thrusters ;-)
Appreciate the help there.
cshenk
> http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0012244
Excellent! B complex additives to '1 a day' regular vitamins might be a good
thing for us who are aging.
Social networking cn be so much fun! You never know what another person will
pop up with that it helpful to you and you didn't even know to ask.
Alan S
I am interested in the implications as I have a relative about to lose
a section of their intestine for tumour removal. Thanks for the
response.
The surgery that worked for me was to cut off my carbs supply, among
other things:
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/2006/10/weight-loss-cooking-and-eating-plan.html
Chris Malcolm
> "Chris Malcolm" wrote
>> More than ten years ago, well before diabetes diagnosis, and possibly
>> before I was an undiagnosed diabetic or pre-diabetic, increasing
>> problems with joints and tendons led to me starting drinking cod liver
>> oil, adding a glucosamine supplement, eating a can of sardines (which
>> includes the bones etc. around once a week, and regularly boiling up
>> the carcass of the chicken we eat once a week to make a stock from the
>> bones, skin, and connective tissues. I make a point of not throwing
>> away any of the fat and skin etc. of the chicken. What comes off in
>> cooking gets incorporated into the gravy.
> Grin, excellent although you can remove the skin and fat before cooking the
> broth if your either desire for taste or wish to reduce the fat calories. I
> am not sure if you can cast off the fat after cooking by cooling as it might
> be the essential parts bind to the fat, but if you eat that too in a gravy,
> 'it's all good'.
I don't want to decrease the fat calories at all. What most people
object to is fat floating around, greasiness, etc.. My wife is
severely intolerant of visible fat or tastable greasiness, and when
she cooks insists on removing and throwing away as much as possible of
all fats. So when I cook for both of us I'd have to prepare defatted
portions for her, or do something ingenious. So I bung in handfuls of
lecithin, also good stuff, which emulsifies the fat and makes it
effectively disappear. And improves the taste and texture.
> Ok so now you have a baggie of frozen bones, bit of meat, joints and such.
> Next, the most cost effective method involves a Crockpot (often called a
> slowcooker in other places, a removable ceramic insert with a glass top into
> a frame with a heating element normally just at the bottom but may add the
> sides). In some places I have been told it is an electric Dutch oven slow
> cooker. I hope I have described it well enough though to be understood no
> matter where the reader is. These devices draw little power in comparison
> to a stove top method and use a slow heat build with a ceramic insert to
> concentrate it.
> The difference is you can extract every bit of 'goodness' from those bones
> at little cost. Last time I ran a check, 3 hours stove top simmer at my
> current location cost me $1.02. Crockpot cost was $0.17 for 24 hours. Far
> more important to *me* was I had to tend the boiling stovetop version
> instead of just dumping in the bones, water, and walking away. There was no
> discernable difference in the taste but the stove top one didn't 'gel' as
> much. Gel'ing this time is a sign as it chills to room temp, that it has
> what you want as in G/C.
Interesting. I'll look into these crockpot things. They sound more
efficient at extracting the goodness and much more efficient on power
than simmering! Although the extra simmering power isn't really wasted
in my northern latitudes, since it simply reduces how much heating the
kitchen needs. We have the old fashioned kind of huge kitchen that a
lot of living goes on in as well as cooking.
As we age our connective tissues seem to age particularly badly. I've
long noticed that some of those sufficienly rich and traditional to
eat a lot of meals which include whole animals of various kinds, fish,
fowl, etc., often have raher youthful looking skins for their age. Of
course I'm discounting women, since rich women get up to all sorts of
cosmetic trickery. I'm thinking of rich old men who don't give a shit
what they look like.
--
Chris Malcolm
Trinkwasser
I've trialled B6, B12 and folic acid but didn't notice any difference,
so concluded I was already getting sufficient from my diet and
discontinued them again.
Perhaps I should have waited longer
My neighbour's husband died from Alzheimers, followed by a stroke. It
was not pretty and took about five years.
Trinkwasser
>"Trinkwasser" wrote
>> "cshenk" wrote:
<with snips>
>Sounds lovely! I'd love the recipe if you ever jotted it down (yes, I can
>handle metrics which is a bit rare for USA folks but all of us can convert
>back and forth believe it or not!). It would make a very nice filling for a
>baked winter squash (you might call them pumpkins) or perhaps a bell pepper
>or tomato?
Recipe? What's one of them? <innocent look> I add the right amount of
everything, where "right" may vary significantly depending on how I
feel.
Basically I fry some chopped up slices of streaky bacon in hot oil (I
cheat and use groundnut oil) until it starts to go crispy but not too
crispy, add some chunks of broken up mushroom, turn the heat down and
add chopped multicoloured peppers and then the beef mince. When it
looks done (yes I know) I slice up some garlic, add some small
stoneless olives, tomato puree, oregano, chilli flakes, paprika and
did I mention the oregano? Then add water and leave to simmer.
You can also use lemon juice, red wine, toasted sesame oil and other
herbs and spices to ring the changes. Whole black peppercorns,
coriander seeds and cardamom seeds taken out of the shell will add
little explosions of flavour if cooked for long enough, or snap pieces
off your teeth if not.
That's my basic "mix" which with variants goes with all kinds of
things, runner beans, asparagus or purple sprouting broccoli are other
alternatives to pasta, or bean sprouts but you need to tinker a bit
with the flavour for them. Every time I do it it's different but
seldom other than delicious.
>The only slight problems will be need to know if that is a thick mince or
>regular if it matters in the dish (I know OZ standards for that, been there
>?10? ?15? times) and finding a pork cut here that is like OZ 'bacon'.
OZ??? I'm in the UK. Go fetch those B vitamins <G>
I used to use ground beef but the mince I usually get is chunkier and
high quality, I like the varied texture.
Danish bacon probably comes closest to out local stuff, I buy "smoked
streaky" which the butcher gets from a local farm via local smokery.
The other butcher gets his via a different route, I prefer his bacon
less but his pork more.
>> I have a crab which I'll
>> stir fry Thai style with chillies, ginger, lime juice etc. and some
>> more lamb chops to have with masses of runner beans. When you don't
>> have to stuff your face with starch all the time you can fit in a
>> *lot* of nutrition.
I have some fennel root too.
>Definately. We eat more starches than folks here do, but probably less meat
>and fat. The trade off works for us but not for diabetics in general. I
>was about to leave that 'qualifier' off but I see for some, there's a bit of
>variation (grin).
Almost anything other than what The Authorities tell you to eat works
better.
>(Short version, he
>is sodium reactive in BP but only when over 1500 MG a day while I show no
>discernable sodium reaction at all no matter what the level.
Yes I've read that somewhere around 30% of hypertensives are improved
by sodium restriction, the rest work better with added potassium (CARE
with certain medications). Probably one reason for the recommendation
of fruit, but of course if the fructose does more harm than the
potassium does good they're not so useful.
>> All interesting stuff. Yes eating only the best muscle meat eliminates
>> various sources of nicronutrients. My parents inherited a "marrow
>> spoon" which was small with a long ornate handle and we used to scoop
>> the marrow out of bones. Making the broth also collects a lot of
>> nutrients otherwise thrown away.
>
>I've seen those. Mostly I make bones where it isn't needed because they are
>cut to about 1 inch 'tall'. I make them up in many ways. One may be a
>method useful to you and you can trade back your method?
To be honest we don't often do this nowadays, mother's appetite is so
tiny we seldom get cuts with bones in. I try to retain all the juices
and fats from what I'm cooking. Casseroling lamb chops, rabbit,
pheasant or chicken with the bones still in is probably the closest
thing we do. Mother will simmer the bones/carcase in water for a long
time and use the broth for soup, with added vegetables. We don't get
beef on the bone or shoulder of lamb any more. I'm a bit leery of
trying a "marrow bone" in case it sets off a gout attack, like liver
or kidneys, though strangely rhubarb seemed to be her worst offender,
followed by one of her diuretics.
Trinkwasser
<loralgtwei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>I am interested in the implications as I have a relative about to lose
>a section of their intestine for tumour removal. Thanks for the
>response.
Mother has to take B6 supplements and B12 injections, exactly what
gets malabsorbed depends on which bit is removed
Ask the tumour to post here, it'll fit right in
Trinkwasser
wrote:
>Interesting. I'll look into these crockpot things. They sound more
>efficient at extracting the goodness and much more efficient on power
>than simmering! Although the extra simmering power isn't really wasted
>in my northern latitudes, since it simply reduces how much heating the
>kitchen needs. We have the old fashioned kind of huge kitchen that a
>lot of living goes on in as well as cooking.
We had a coal fire in Durham and other northern places and would put
an actual pot on the actual fire with a whole bunch of veggies and
meat (including roadkill rabbits when fresh). You added new stuff
about as fast as you took the previously cooked stuff out over several
days.
>As we age our connective tissues seem to age particularly badly. I've
>long noticed that some of those sufficienly rich and traditional to
>eat a lot of meals which include whole animals of various kinds, fish,
>fowl, etc., often have raher youthful looking skins for their age. Of
>course I'm discounting women, since rich women get up to all sorts of
>cosmetic trickery. I'm thinking of rich old men who don't give a shit
>what they look like.
Some of the surgical alternatives look appalling after a few years
Ellen K.
> "Alan S" wrote
>
>> My list is like Trinks. Fish oil, glucosamine (arthritis, I know of no
>> food source), magnesium (cramps), D3 (lots of sun here but I'm also
>> prone to skin cancers) and I'm trialling ALA.
>
>
> Hi Alan S.
>
> http://www.nutritional-supplements-health-guide.com/glucosamine-natural-source.html
>
> Excerpt: : If you are looking for a reliable Glucosamine source you do not
> need to go far. The connective tissue of animals, such as chicken marrow,
> and other animal materials, such as shell fish exoskeletons, all contain
> Glucosamine. However, most of us do not eat marrow, or bones for that
> matter. The only way we would really get Glucosamine in our diet is if we
> eat animal marrow, or make it a constant habit to eat the broth made from
> these animal bones. Most of us do not eat these products so our diet is
> deficient. That is why supplementing it is so important."
>
> come-a-cropper over it in due time and probably before this one (grin).
>
>
>
>
Ellen K.
"M@ŠkŽ" <Al...@OneWithTheGods.org> wrote in message
news:tgaq861dbglfuo3v7...@4ax.com...
>
<g>
Actually I meant to forward the message to myself for my keep folder (ergo
the title change), clicked reply group by mistake.
But since you mention it, there is also another Jewish dish that would
qualify: it's customary to use marrow bones (a standard item at kosher
butchers) in cholent (traditional sabbath day dish containing meat, beans,
usually also grains and/or potatoes, and simmered overnight). Interestingly
marrow bones are used in both Eastern European and North African versions of
the dish.
ellerby
> On Sep 8, 6:53 pm, Alan S <loralgtweightandca...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 8 Sep 2010 02:21:32 -0700 (PDT), "trigonometry1...@gmail.com
>>
>>|" <trigonometry1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>When setting your B-12 supplemental intake consider this article.
>>
>>>www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15911731
>>
>>>Read the full article or at least scan it. It takes a considerable
>>>dose to improve B-12 status in these subjects.
>>
>> I supplement B12 daily.
>>
>> My supplement of choice is rump steak, followed closely by Atlantic
>> salmon, pork sausages, beef casseroles or lamb chops.
>>
>> I also enjoy oysters and other mollusks, but don't eat them as often
>> as I would like.http://www.ars.usda.gov/SP2UserFiles/Place/12354500/Data/SR22/nutrlis...
>>
>> Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
>> d & e; metformin 1500mg
>> --
>> Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com(Privacy On Forums And The Web)http://loraltravel.blogspot.com(Buenos Aires, Argentina)
>
> As long as your absorption is good, this is fine and the forms will
> be superior to the cyano functional group synthetic form. But if
> absorption is impaired due to low stomach acidity or lack of the secretion of
> the protective factor for the B-12 such persons will have a slowly
> declining B-12 status.
I heard several years ago that "non-natural" supplements are not taken up
so well if there is no natural form of it in the body.
It is a bit like "hydrophobic" soil not taking up rain, and just being
washed away a dust floating on the water.
A "wetting agent" is needed to promote absorbtion.
It was recomended to eat something with vitamin B in it (eg Vegemite),
as well as the supplement.
>
> I take the supplement as it cheaper and simpler than to be tested
> and dealing with some half baked PCP.
>
> Posted from the declining American Empire.......................Trig
.. with the usual provisos - IANAL IMHO YMMV ... ,
.... and always Wes' Guidelines re judging others.
Regards, Lindsay in OZ #
--
M, 58, Non diabetic but familiarly involved
So I lurk, don't post often - usually in non medical threads .....
# (Which only *partly* explains the date, spelling, nym and posting styles)
Composed Oz date Mon 13/9 sometime and posted later when back online
"But life is short and information endless;
nobody has time for everything"
- Aldous Huxley
cshenk
> cshenk wrote:
>> Grin, excellent although you can remove the skin and fat before cooking
>> the
>> broth if your either desire for taste or wish to reduce the fat calories.
>> I
>> am not sure if you can cast off the fat after cooking by cooling as it
>> might
>> be the essential parts bind to the fat, but if you eat that too in a
>> gravy,
>> 'it's all good'.
> I don't want to decrease the fat calories at all. What most people
> object to is fat floating around, greasiness, etc.. My wife is
> severely intolerant of visible fat or tastable greasiness, and when
> she cooks insists on removing and throwing away as much as possible of
> all fats. So when I cook for both of us I'd have to prepare defatted
> portions for her, or do something ingenious. So I bung in handfuls of
> lecithin, also good stuff, which emulsifies the fat and makes it
> effectively disappear. And improves the taste and texture.
Neat trick! Yes, some folks want the 'mouthfeel' of defatted. Me, I like
fatty foods but have to be careful due to cholestrol issues. I diet control
those very well after decades of working out how to make it work for me.
>> Ok so now you have a baggie of frozen bones, bit of meat, joints and
>> such.
>> Next, the most cost effective method involves a Crockpot (often called a
>> slowcooker in other places, a removable ceramic insert with a glass top
>> into
(snippies)
>> The difference is you can extract every bit of 'goodness' from those
>> bones
>> at little cost.
> Interesting. I'll look into these crockpot things. They sound more
> efficient at extracting the goodness and much more efficient on power
> than simmering! Although the extra simmering power isn't really wasted
> in my northern latitudes, since it simply reduces how much heating the
> kitchen needs. We have the old fashioned kind of huge kitchen that a
> lot of living goes on in as well as cooking.
That is right! A crockpot (by whatever name they may be called where you
are) won't add much heat at all and is a good choice in my southern hot area
for summer time use. We can hit up to 43C here if I recall my conversions
right though that is often the 'feels like' temp (called heat index, we are
a damp area of recovered swampland mostly). I figure it this way, a
crockpot won't add much heat but the change can pay to run the other heat
sources up and still make out better?
There are other devices with metal inserts (you can even deepfry in them).
They 'may' have the same name but are not the same thing. Look for a
removable ceramic insert and you got it. They come in many sizes and
shapes. You want it with a heat dial for 'keep warm, low, medium, high' for
best simple operation. Some have digital timers and auto-shutoff but I think
those are a waste of money and would be a PITA if you couldn't turn off the
auto-shutoff for long term running.
I got my first crockpot in 1978. I used it 200 days a year or more it until
finally the cord needed replacement in 2002. I got 2 then (a large oval
that holds a pork shoulder) and a small unit (holds just 5 cups). I added a
'junior' in 2008 because sometimes the 'baby crock' was too small, and the
'Momma crock' made too much so got a middle size one. The baby crock here
tends to be used to keep the rest of what was in the others warm when there
is little left or to steam/bake just a few smallish potatoes.
Junior Crock right now just finished making that lovely batch of Navy beans
(a no sugar added recipe posted elsewhere here) and is now steaming hunks of
winter squash with a tart green cut up apple. It hasn't turned to 'mash
stage' yet but will later tonight. Some will be pureed soup, some will be
spiced then turned into pie filling, and some just buttered a little and
eaten right away.
If you do decide to get one, I can help you see how to adapt some of your
recipes to them. They do more than soups/stews/dried beans/stock making but
those are the most notable things people use them for.
cshenk
> It was recomended to eat something with vitamin B in it (eg Vegemite),
> as well as the supplement.
Ahem. Make mine Promite please!
Alan S
>"Alan S" wrote
>> "cshenk" wrote:
>
>>>>>Oh yes! I forgot to mention that. Folks who have had to have portions
>>>>>of
>>>>>stomach or intestine removal can have problems with many vitamins and
>>>>>absorbing them.
>
>>>My friend isn't a diabetic (far as I know) but it's obvious diabetes meds
>>>would have to be carefully adjusted during this time and I'd say a
>>>diabetic
>>>with lapband would be told to test very often and adjust as needed.
>(BTW, I was wrong. He is but they believe it is more due to weight and will
>go away in his case with weight loss).
>
>> I am interested in the implications as I have a relative about to lose
>> a section of their intestine for tumour removal. Thanks for the
>> response.
>
>From: http://spectrum.diabetesjournals.org/content/18/2/82.full
>
>A rather easy read on one part of it.
>
> "The gastric bypass creates malabsorption, whereby iron, calcium, and
>B-vitamin nutrition is in jeopardy. In addition to a nutritious diet,
>supplements are necessary to work against potential deficiencies.
>Iron-deficiency anemia, pernicious anemia, and osteoporosis (in both sexes)
>may develop, although usually not in the first postoperative year.
>A daily combination of an adult-strength multivitamin with iron, a B-complex
>supplement, and 1,000-1,500 mg of calcium is needed for the rest of the
>patient's life. Chewable vitamins are now available for patients who do not
>tolerate pills well. Diagnostic blood work is needed at the patient's annual
>postoperative visit or sooner if suspicious symptoms such as fatigue or
>shortness of breath are present."
>
>I was not able to find a web site in layman's terms that detail the areas of
>removal and specific impacts. These show the most commonly problematic.
>Other things are 'dumping' which means a sudden flux of hypoglycemic phase
>if sweets are eaten (this is viewed actually in it's best light as it
>teaches the patient fast to avoid sweets apparently). Also it can cause
>lactose intolerance (not always, just seems a high prevalance in side
>effect).
>
>Although that site is off a diabetes link, the effect is the same, diabetic
>or not.
>
> I have another friend who about 4 months ago apparently had radical surgery
>due to stomach cancer. I even saved the diet series I made up for him based
>on the needed changes. *If* people here do not object I can post it (comes
>in 3 long messages) or if you prefer, email me (address not munged) and I
>can email it back to you (it's all in ascii text). Oh, that series is 100%
>based on the diet shift as he had no food allergies or diabetes. It was
>also oriented to use miso (a direct request of his so it's in many of the
>recipes) but with only the most common easy to get ingredients for the most
>part. Per his email, all but one of them passed his Doctor's approval and
>the one that didn't was only because he preferred less sodium (so I reduced
>it and saved the reduced version in the series). It would of course be
>reviewed by your relative's Doc to see if it matches them.
>
>LOL, everyone has an odd hobby someplace hidden. Mine is helping friends
>with recipes based on special diets (and I always tell'em to run them by
>their Doctors). The nutritional data sheets given, often have only 1-2
>pages and extremely limited lists of allowed whn in fact they are often just
>showing a sample of a few items.
Thanks. I won't ask for those details yet; I'm not sure how much he or
his wife want to know at the moment. Thanks for the offer.
Ellen K.
> That is right! A crockpot (by whatever name they may be called where you
> are) won't add much heat at all and is a good choice in my southern hot
> area for summer time use. We can hit up to 43C here if I recall my
> conversions right though that is often the 'feels like' temp (called heat
> index, we are a damp area of recovered swampland mostly). I figure it
> this way, a crockpot won't add much heat but the change can pay to run the
> other heat sources up and still make out better?
>
> There are other devices with metal inserts (you can even deepfry in them).
> They 'may' have the same name but are not the same thing. Look for a
> removable ceramic insert and you got it. They come in many sizes and
> shapes. You want it with a heat dial for 'keep warm, low, medium, high'
> for best simple operation. Some have digital timers and auto-shutoff but I
> think those are a waste of money and would be a PITA if you couldn't turn
> off the auto-shutoff for long term running.
>
Can the removable insert be used like a regular pot also? I.e. on a burner?
In the oven?
RodS
Blasphemy !!! :-)
(- -)
=m=(_)=m=
RodS T2
Australia
cshenk
> "cshenk" wrote
(on crockpots)
>> There are other devices with metal inserts (you can even deepfry in
>> them). They 'may' have the same name but are not the same thing. Look
>> for a removable ceramic insert and you got it. They come in many sizes
>> and
> Can the removable insert be used like a regular pot also? I.e. on a
> burner? In the oven?
The metal ones maybe can but it's almost a misnomer to call them 'crockpot'
or 'slowcooker'. It is likely you can take the ceramic versions and put
them in the oven but I have never tried it nor heard of any other
experimenting with that. Stovetop, no for the ceramics. It;s more like a
terra cotta 'pot' with a hardened surface on all sides? It's not 'pyrex' or
the 1/4 inch stuff sold with a glass lid for baking in.
I'd dump the stuff into a container meant for that if I wanted to reheat in
the oven or something. Mostly when i use the crockpots, I do the entire
thing there then after eating grunches if too much to hold hot (up to 3
days, depends on dish made as to how long), freeze then nuke the items back
as leftovers in some dish/pan meant for use there.
cshenk
> cshenk wrote:
>> "ellerby" wrote
>>> It was recomended to eat something with vitamin B in it (eg Vegemite),
>>> as well as the supplement.
>> Ahem. Make mine Promite please!
> Blasphemy !!! :-)
AHEM! I have a friend who shipped it to me from there! You couldn't get it
here at all any other way then. Now, you can (evil grin).
um, digging toe in carpet, I like it better. Had it in Darwin and just
liked it better. Got stateside and found my OZ friends were willing to ship
me some in return for stuff they couldn't find there. 'Even Steven trade'
used.
Ellen K.
Thanks. I was thinking more for the first stage, i.e. getting the mixture
to boiling before leaving to simmer. Or does yours have a heat setting high
enough to do that, i.e. start on high and then turn down?
RodS
You may have seriously jeopardized your chances of ever getting a visa
to visit Oz again :-)
It's all much the same, all made from brewers yeast, nice way to get Vit
B spread on a cracker with cheese, used to be on hot buttered toast
nearly daily, now only rarely as a nostalgic treat.
cshenk
> "cshenk" wrote
> Thanks. I was thinking more for the first stage, i.e. getting the
> mixture to boiling before leaving to simmer. Or does yours have a heat
> setting high enough to do that, i.e. start on high and then turn down?
Yes, all 4 temp types will simmer on high easy and most 'slow simmer' on
medium. They never hit a true 'boil' as they shouldnt because that's wrong
for the type of cookery used. You'd have to get the al metal crock sort for
that and then it may cost more than the stove in electric to run.
Ellen K.
So if I want to start something by bringing it to a boil and then turn it
way down to simmer very low, I can't use a crockpot for that?
Julie Bove
"Ellen K." <firstiniti...@dslextreme.com> wrote in message
news:Wtyko.80982$st2....@newsfe09.iad...
Right. In that case you would have to start it on the stove first. This is
what you need to do with most beans if you are going to do them in the
crock.
Ellen K.
"Julie Bove" <juli...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:i61kn3$ul3$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>I do take a lot of vitamins. I have two containers with compartments in
>them that I fill up every other week. I do take 6 prescription meds and
>some herbal supplements as well. Each time I try to cut back on something,
>the problem that I was taking it for seems to crop up. Except for some
>things.
>
> I was taking Ginkgo Biloba before for memory. Didn't help. But then I
> read somewhere that it could help with hair loss. So I tried it for that
> and it didn't seem to help.
>
> I have some other vitamins that I foolishly bought that were for hair
> loss. Turns out there is nothing in there that I wasn't already taking,
> although perhaps not in that amount. And they certainly were overpriced!
>
> I did find my regular multiple vitamin to be woefully lacking though. I
> was taking a kosher, vegan vitamin from Swanson. It was so lacking in
> some things that I found myself having to take additional B vitamins,
> Biotin, E and also calcium. I think the extra calcium is pretty much a
> given though because I don't think you can pack enough of it into a
> multiple. And since I eat dairy only twice a week, and not much else with
> calcium in it, I probably do need it.
>
> I ran out of my multiple and needed to get more. I looked at Costco
> online. Thought I had bought some but apparently not. I am happy to see
> that they now have my blueberry extract and I also got some Ocuvite
> online. But the multiple vitamins confused me.
>
> I saw some One A Day for women over 50. Now you'd think that would be
> right for me. I am a woman and I am over 50. But there was no iron in
> them and I very much seem to need iron. I tend to go anemic if I don't
> get at least a little of it. At times I have had to take iron pills in
> addition. But *knock wood* I don't seem to need it now. Just a little in
> my multiple and then I need to eat meat a couple of times a week.
>
> I know several companies make a diabetes pack of vitamins. These might be
> ideal. I really don't know. Never really looked at what was in them. I
> issues I have with them are that they are expensive and they tend to come
> many pills to a little plastic bag. I don't want to have to open all
> those bags and put them in my container.
>
> What I wound up buying today was the Kirkland Daily Multi. Seemed fairly
> cheap and there are 500 pills in there so I won't have to buy them again
> for a long time. But now the problem I see is that so much of what it
> contains is 100%. So now maybe I don't need that extra E, D3 or even the
> B vitamins? Not sure. I also take extra C in the morning when I take my
> MSM because I read that you need to take it with to enhance absorbability
> of the MSM. And Annette (who used to post here) said that when you take
> vitamin C, you also need to take rutein (sp?) and other bioflavinoids so I
> make sure that I take one with.
>
> One thing for sure, according to the Cron-O-meter, my diet is sorely
> lacking. This doesn't surprise me one bit given my food allergies and the
> dietary limitations of my gastroparesis along with the diabetes.
>
> I don't feel like listing everything that I take. But it's a handful in
> the morning and night and about 5 pills (3 of them prescription) with
> dinner.
>
> So what (if anything) do you take in terms of vitamins? Just a multi? Do
> you take other stuff in addition? I want to make sure I have enough
> vitamins in me. But I don't want to overdose either. I think maybe next
> week I won't have to put in some of the extra ones I've been taking.
Still haven't caught up all the posts from my absence last week, but tonight
I'll at least answer this one.
Currently I am taking:
In the morning 300 mg ALA, 200 mcg GTF chromium, and 250 mg L-carnitine.
In the evening another 300 mg ALA, 600 IU vitamin D3, and 250 mg chelated
magnesium.
Ellen K.
"Julie Bove" <juli...@frontier.com> wrote in message
news:i6uo9b$gmf$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
OK, so then I'm just not gonna get one, I'll stick with doing the whole
thing on the stove.
Thanks for the information. :)
Julie Bove
>
> Still haven't caught up all the posts from my absence last week, but
> tonight I'll at least answer this one.
>
> Currently I am taking:
>
> In the morning 300 mg ALA, 200 mcg GTF chromium, and 250 mg L-carnitine.
> In the evening another 300 mg ALA, 600 IU vitamin D3, and 250 mg chelated
> magnesium.
Thanks!
Julie Bove
I used mine a LOT last year. Angela's dance schedule was such on most days
that she got out of there around dinner time. The crockpot was great for
making a soup or stew while we were gone. I also had a chicken and rice
recipe that I really liked, but she didn't. When my husband was home, I
would do a roast in one and vegetables in the other. He and Angela are big
meat eaters. No matter how big the roast I made, there were little or no
leftovers. Almost always had leftover veggies though. I would just use
those to make a quick soup.
Chris Malcolm
Note that all this talk about turning up or down is misconceived --
crockpots are controlled by thermostat level, not by a heat output
control. So the speed with which it will bring a pot to boil from cold
will depend not the slightest on the setting, but entirely on the
power of the heating element. As a simple rough ballpark guide derived
from electric kettles, a 3 kilowatt element will boil 2 pints of water
in about 3 minutes. Other powers and quantities will be in simple
proportion.
--
Chris Malcolm
Julie Bove
"Chris Malcolm" <c...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:8fgmc7...@mid.individual.net...
What kind of crockpot do you have that will bring something to a boil? I
have 4 of them and had a couple of others in the past. None brought
anything to a boil, ever. They're not designed to do that. If yours does,
there's something wrong with it.
Ozgirl
"Julie Bove" <juli...@frontier.com> wrote in message
news:i6vdku$cgg$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
All of mine have come to a boil including the very first one we had here
in Oz - the Monier. Mine usually have 3 settings - Low, High and Auto. I
usually put it on high til it reaches boiling point then turn it to low
for the duration of the cooking. It might take hours to reach boiling
point but it gets there. In the old days I used to pour a flour and
water mixture into the pot an hour or so before serving time to thicken
the dish. I would turn it back to high for that final step.
>
outsider
I have 2 crockpots (different sizes) and both will bring
stuff to a boil if there's liquid content.
Julie Bove
"Ozgirl" <are_we_t...@maccas.com> wrote in message
news:8fgvi1...@mid.individual.net...
Huh. Maybe yours are made differently over there? My most recent one has a
high, low and keep warm. None of mine have auto. The newer ones do get
hotter, but still are not supposed to come to a boil.
Julie Bove
"outsider" <outs...@sometime.invalid.net> wrote in message
news:i6vnad$bqh$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Hmmm...
cshenk
"cshenk" wrote
>> Yes, all 4 temp types will simmer on high easy and most 'slow simmer' on
>> medium. They never hit a true 'boil' as they shouldnt because that's
>> wrong for the type of cookery used. You'd have to get the al metal crock
>> sort for that and then it may cost more than the stove in electric to
>> run.
> So if I want to start something by bringing it to a boil and then turn it
> way down to simmer very low, I can't use a crockpot for that?
Not really, but rethink 'why do you boil'? Depending on the food item,
there is no value added to it's flavor.
Scratchuing head, I might make the pasta separate (often do) as it doesnt
stand for long cooking.
What are you trying to make that you need to boil hard first?
cshenk
> "Ellen K." wrote
>> So if I want to start something by bringing it to a boil and then turn it
>> way down to simmer very low, I can't use a crockpot for that?
> Right. In that case you would have to start it on the stove first. This
> is what you need to do with most beans if you are going to do them in the
> crock.
LOL, sorry Julie but no. Dried beans work fine with just the low setting.
Boiling before not needed. I don't even pre-soak them as the long cooking
pretty much removes those issues as well.
Julie Bove
Some beans are poisonous if you don't boil them first. It even says to do
so in the little booklet that comes with the crockpot. I believe black
beans are one such. Let me find a link. Here are three. I stand
corrected. It is kidney beans that must be boiled.
http://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/2385/
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=000GAQ
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_bean
Ellen K.
I don't presoak them either if I'm using them as part of a long-cooking
dish.