What to do for SSRI-induced sexual dysfunction?
Nom dePlume
that doesn't have a well establishe solution. So I would like to start
collecting solutions people have found. Please let me know
-what you've tried that does work
-what you've tried that doesn't work
-what you've heard of that is supposed to work
I'll put a list together.
Thanks,
Nom
--
Nom dePlume, Ph.D.
Why, yes, in fact, I am a rocket scientist.
Guide to Medications for Mental Illness:
http://www.geocities.com/nomdeplume1000/
=====
Cassandra
The doctor who put me on my first SSRI told me that I wouldn't have any
sexual side effects, since only men got those. Therefore, I can only
tell you my experience with imaginary anorgasmia... :-D (I was so
good, I didn't say anything remotely like, "It's not a problem in the
genitals, MORON -- the problem is in the brain. Which women have,
too.")
Cyproheptidine worked for me, although I've heard that it doesn't work
for everyone. It's an old antihistimine that's now used for all sorts
of things, although not allergies... (My cat and I share my
prescription, for example, because it helps with his itchiness and
stimulates his appetite.) It's also used, in some cases, for treating
the symptoms of Cushing's Disease in horses and I think dogs, and I
believe I came across something about trying it for Parkinson's or
something similar? One problem with it is that it's kinda hard to find
much recent literature about it, so most of what I've found is more
anecdotal -- and I don't have the umph tonight to try to recreate the
searches I've done on it, and know that I didn't bookmark them.
I've also read about two other options: medication holidays and
augmenting with Wellbutrin. The Wellbutrin might or might not work --
frankly, I've heard of people who took it, but never that someone was
thrilled by how well it worked. And medication holidays might be fine,
but I don't think they'd be a good choice for someone on,say, Effexor?
Besides, I would think that it might take longer than a day or two to
work, and I would also think that it would leave many of us not nearly
as responsive to the depression treatment. Then again, as I said,
cyproheptidine worked for me, it's innocuous enough, and it's pennies
per pill.
Nom dePlume
news:1135146380.9...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> What a good idea!
>
> The doctor who put me on my first SSRI told me that I wouldn't have
any
> sexual side effects, since only men got those. Therefore, I can
only
> tell you my experience with imaginary anorgasmia... :-D (I was so
> good, I didn't say anything remotely like, "It's not a problem in
the
> genitals, MORON -- the problem is in the brain. Which women have,
> too.")
I would like to think this happened a long time ago, back when Prozac
had been out for a week, and few doctors even knew how to spell SSRI.
(I'd like to believe that, but I don't....)
> Cyproheptidine worked for me, although I've heard that it doesn't
work
> for everyone. It's an old antihistimine that's now used for all
sorts
> of things, although not allergies... (My cat and I share my
> prescription, for example, because it helps with his itchiness and
> stimulates his appetite.) It's also used, in some cases, for
treating
> the symptoms of Cushing's Disease in horses and I think dogs, and I
> believe I came across something about trying it for Parkinson's or
> something similar? One problem with it is that it's kinda hard to
find
> much recent literature about it, so most of what I've found is more
> anecdotal -- and I don't have the umph tonight to try to recreate
the
> searches I've done on it, and know that I didn't bookmark them.
Cyproheptidine is a very interesting idea, and one worth noting. (So
noted!)
>
> I've also read about two other options: medication holidays and
> augmenting with Wellbutrin. The Wellbutrin might or might not
work --
> frankly, I've heard of people who took it, but never that someone
was
> thrilled by how well it worked.
Likewise.
> And medication holidays might be fine,
> but I don't think they'd be a good choice for someone on,say,
Effexor?
<Shudder>
> Besides, I would think that it might take longer than a day or two
to
> work, and I would also think that it would leave many of us not
nearly
> as responsive to the depression treatment.
I would have that concern, too.
> Then again, as I said,
> cyproheptidine worked for me, it's innocuous enough, and it's
pennies
> per pill.
Worth investigating, I'd say!
Unknown
> This is a topic that keeps coming up (for obvious reasons), and it one
> that doesn't have a well establishe solution. So I would like to start
> collecting solutions people have found. Please let me know
Look for meta reviews on PubMed. That should be the most efficient way
to find the information you're looking for. It has been quite a while
since I last checked, but as I recall, many of the remedies touted by
anecdotes (and often finding support from open-label trials) did not
stand up to placebo-controlled trials. One problem with the open
designed studies is the unusually high placebo response rate.
Amantadine, Wellbutrin, Buspar, et al., did not pan out in controlled
trials.
lym
> This is a topic that keeps coming up (for obvious reasons), and it one
> that doesn't have a well establishe solution. So I would like to start
> collecting solutions people have found. Please let me know
>
> -what you've tried that does work
>
> -what you've tried that doesn't work
>
> -what you've heard of that is supposed to work
>
> I'll put a list together.
>
> Thanks,
> Nom
(snipped from one of my posts in another thread, which you probably saw
anyway):
When I had one erectile dysfunction incident about 10 years ago (long
before Viagra entered the picture), I bitched like hell about it and my
doctor gave me some Yohimbine. I it found to be effective, "mild", and
pretty well-targeted to that particular symptom. I don't believe it
has a reputation for elevating blood pressure like Viagra does.
Nom dePlume
> Look for meta reviews on PubMed. That should be the most efficient
way
> to find the information you're looking for. It has been quite a
while
> since I last checked, but as I recall, many of the remedies touted
by
> anecdotes (and often finding support from open-label trials) did not
> stand up to placebo-controlled trials. One problem with the open
> designed studies is the unusually high placebo response rate.
>
> Amantadine, Wellbutrin, Buspar, et al., did not pan out in
controlled
> trials.
>
>
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=PureSearch&db=pubmed&details_term=%28%22Sexual%20Dysfunction%2C%20Physiological/chemically%20induced%22%5BMeSH%5D%20OR%20%22Sexual%20Dysfunction%2C%20Physiological/drug%20therapy%22%5BMeSH%5D%29%20AND%20%22Serotonin%20Uptake%20Inhibitors/adverse%20effects%22%5BMeSH%5D
I'll take a look, thanks. I must admit to never having heard that
adding Wellbutrin *worked*--just that it was *tried.*
Nom dePlume
news:211220051915566895%n...@chancebuddy.com...
So was the Yohimbine for ED, or lack of libido? It sounds like the
former, but I thought I'd heard of it being used for the latter, too.
lym
It was for ED. I was actually coming off Pamelor at the time, so
technically it is off-topic, not SSRI per se. But it did help the few
times I tried it and then that weird transitional period ended and I
was fine. I hate to sound like every man who ever had erectile
dysfunction but "nothing like that had ever happened to me before" and,
thankfully, since.
Oddly, I was on SSRIs for many years and the only form of sexual
dysfunction I ever experienced was "delayed ejaculation", which I took
to be a bit of a plus, as did some of my partners.
But that's another story boys and girls...
Nom dePlume
news:1135215838....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> This is such a redundant, overasked question that I find it
ridiculous.
> There must be one million questions with answers how to treat
> antidepressant induced sexual dysfunction. Why you feel the need to
> write more on the subject is beyond me.
I am not surprised to discover that this concept is beyond you.
> Have you ever been diagnosed with OCD?
No.
[Puerile nonsense deleted]
lym
LostBoyinNC <LostBo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Youre stupid nom, this is a dime a dozen question that any psychiatrist
> could fix.
>
> Eric
>
I don't think he is trying to "fix it" so much as collate the
information to pass onto others, to be helpful.
Cassandra
>
> This is such a redundant, overasked question that I find it ridiculous.
> There must be one million questions with answers how to treat
> antidepressant induced sexual dysfunction. Why you feel the need to
> with OCD?
I won't bother t opoint out that you're once again applying a diagnosis
to someone simply because you do not agree with him. (Nom? You are a
man, right?)
What Nom is doing here, is creating a sort of FAQ. That's a list of
Frequently Asked Questions, with answers that have been offered here,
so that new people can read the FAQ rather than asking the question yet
one more time. Not only that, but all the information is in one place,
so we can all find it easily. These are good things, Eric.
But I guess you really aren't quite clear on the concept of FAQs...
>
> I have found the best way to deal with antidepressant induced sexual
> dysfunction is to go to a strip club and have a stripper give me a lap
> dance.
>
> Another good way to overcome SSRI induced sexual dysfunction is to meet
> a woman you dont know on the net, then have phone sex with her.
>
>
> Eric
That's because only men have sexual dysfunction from meds? Right,
because women aren't real, we're nothing more than animated blow up
dolls, created solely for your own pleasure. Not surprising, though,
since you suffer from Borderline Personality Disorder as well as
Schizoaffective and Antisocial personality disorders. Truly, Eric, if
you did something about the Borderline problems, your depression would
probably go away. You just need to learn some skills to cope with your
emotional instability and the distress it causes.
rs1...@yahoo.com
mechanisms. Obviously the suggestions for dealing with the problem are
not very helpful.
Antidepressants are thought to raise prolactin levels, and this without
a doubt lowers lidido and sexual function. This can be countered
completely by taking the drug cabergoline (Dostinex) at appropriate
dosages. Echinacea at the right dosage according to animal studies may
also be helpful for inhibiting prolactin production and may help to
boost dopamine, and doesn't have side effects typically. Nitric oxide
can be increased by supplementing with relevant dosages of arginine on
an empty stomach. Wellbutrin has been proposed to help by increasing
dopamine, although it's action on dopamine is thought to be weak.
Perspect Psychiatr Care. 2002 Jul-Sep;38(3):111-6.
Mechanisms and treatments of SSRI-induced sexual dysfunction.
Keltner NL, McAfee KM, Taylor CL.
University of Alabama, Birmingham, AL, USA. kelt...@son.uab.edu
SSRI-induced sexual dysfunction affects 30% to 50% or more of
individuals who take these drugs for depression. Biochemical mechanisms
suggested as causative include increased serotonin, particularly
affecting 5HT2 and 5HT3 receptors; decreased dopamine; blockade of
cholinergic and alpha-1 adrenergic receptors; inhibition of nitric
oxide synthetase; and elevation of prolactin levels. Five approaches to
treatment include conservative approaches such as wait and see,
decrease dosage, and drug holidays. More aggressive strategy for
treating SSRI-induced sexual dysfunction are changing antidepressants
and augmentation.
Publication Types:
Review
PMID: 12385082 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Larry Hoover
> potent dopamine agonist like dostinex. Its too much dopamine for most
> people, unless you have a formally dxed prolactin/pituitary problem or
> parkinsons disease.
>
> This is a shitty bit of advice for the average AD user...
>
> Eric
No, it is you not reading what was said. "cabergoline (Dostinex) at appropriate
dosages"
At appropriate doses, duh.
Lar
rs1...@yahoo.com
may be useful for boosting dopamine levels in animals. Tyrosine at the
right dosages on an empty stomach, for instance. Examples of others
include phenylalanine, Mucuna prurien, CDP-choline, theanine.
For theanine in particular, see the following study:
Yokogoshi H, et al. 1998. Effect of Theanine, r-Glutamylethylamide, on
Brain Monoamines and Striatal Dopamine Release in Conscious Rats.
Neurochemical Research. 23: 667-673.
Theanine also is thought to increase GABA.
Perhaps a combinational approach of lowering prolactin, increasing NO,
increasing dopamine. Although, this would be an experiment, nothing
proven obviously. Either way, both certain drugs and natural
substances (without the side effects) may have some efficacy in helping
to counter the problems with NO, prolactin, and dopamine.
One approach might be a starting combination of: cabergoline(Dostinex)
for lowering prolactin; arginine for increasing NO;
and theanine and tyrosine and maybe wellbutrin for helping to increase
dopamine. The dosages and number of administrations per day would have
to be adequate.
I would think such an approach would have less chance of being
beneficial in those taking an anti-depressant that also acts on
nor-epinehprine like effexor or cymbalta.
Larry Hoover
>
> the best way to overcome AD sexual dysfunction is simple. Either add
> Wellbutrin to your existing AD, or change altogether to Wellbutrin as
> your main antidepressant. Remeron can also be added to existing
> antidepressants for sexual dysfunction.
And what about people on Wellbutrin or Remeron with sexual dysfunction caused by
these drugs? (see references below)
> And testosterone supplements are very useful, especially for males. The
> rest of this stuff, "yohimbe" and stuff...is bullshit.
>
> Eric
References?
And yohimbe was already attested to, by a reader of this group.
J Clin Psychiatry. 2002 Apr;63(4):357-66.
Prevalence of sexual dysfunction among newer antidepressants.
Clayton AH, Pradko JF, Croft HA, Montano CB, Leadbetter RA, Bolden-Watson C, Bass
KI, Donahue RM, Jamerson BD, Metz A.
Department of Psychiatric Medicine, University of Virginia, Charlottesville 22903,
USA. ah...@virginia.edu
BACKGROUND: Sexual dysfunction commonly occurs during antidepressant treatment.
However, the reported rates of sexual dysfunction vary across antidepressants and
are typically underreported in product literature. The objectives of this study were
(1) to estimate the prevalence of sexual dysfunction among patients taking newer
antidepressants (bupropion immediate release [IR], bupropion sustained release [SR],
citalopram, fluoxetine, mirtazapine, nefazodone, paroxetine, sertraline,
venlafaxine, and venlafaxine extended release [XR]) and (2) to compare
physician-perceived with patient-reported prevalence rates of
antidepressant-associated sexual dysfunction. METHOD: This cross-sectional,
observational study was conducted in 1101 U.S. primary care clinics. Adult
outpatients (4534 women and 1763 men) receiving antidepressant monotherapy were
enrolled. The prevalence of sexual dysfunction was measured using the Changes in
Sexual Functioning Questionnaire. RESULTS: In the overall population, bupropion IR
(22%) and SR (25%) and nefazodone (28%) were associated with the lowest risk for
sexual dysfunction, whereas selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI)
antidepressants, mirtazapine, and venlafaxine XR were associated with higher rates
(36%-43%). In a prospectively defined subpopulation unlikely to have predisposing
factors for sexual dysfunction, the prevalence of sexual dysfunction ranged from 7%
to 30%, with the odds of having sexual dysfunction 4 to 6 times greater with SSRIs
or venlafaxine XR than with bupropion SR. Physicians consistently underestimated the
prevalence of antidepressant-associated sexual dysfunction. CONCLUSION: Ours is the
first study to assess sexual dysfunction across the newer antidepressants using
consistent methodology and a validated rating scale. Overall, SSRIs and venlafaxine
XR were associated with higher rates of sexual dysfunction than bupropion or
nefazodone. Because antidepressant-associated sexual dysfunction is considerably
underestimated by physicians, greater recognition and education are imperative when
prescribing antidepressant treatment.
J Clin Psychiatry. 2001;62 Suppl 3:10-21.
Comment in:
J Clin Psychiatry. 2002 Feb;63(2):168.
Incidence of sexual dysfunction associated with antidepressant agents: a prospective
multicenter study of 1022 outpatients. Spanish Working Group for the Study of
Psychotropic-Related Sexual Dysfunction.
Montejo AL, Llorca G, Izquierdo JA, Rico-Villademoros F.
University Hospital of Salamanca, Psychiatric Teaching Area, University of
Salamanca, School of Medicine, Spain. angellui...@globalmed.es
BACKGROUND: Antidepressants, especially selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors
(SSRIs), venlafaxine, and clomipramine, are frequently associated with sexual
dysfunction. Other antidepressants (nefazodone, mirtazapine, bupropion, amineptine,
and moclobemide) with different mechanisms of action seem to have fewer sexual side
effects. The incidence of sexual dysfunction is underestimated, and the use of a
specific questionnaire is needed. METHOD: The authors analyzed the incidence of
antidepressant-related sexual dysfunction in a multicenter, prospective, open-label
study carried out by the Spanish Working Group for the Study of Psychotropic-Related
Sexual Dysfunction. The group collected data from April 1995 to February 2000 on
patients with previously normal sexual function who were being treated with
antidepressants alone or antidepressants plus benzodiazepines. One thousand
twenty-two outpatients (610 women, 412 men; mean age = 39.8 +/- 11.3 years) were
interviewed using the Psychotropic-Related Sexual Dysfunction Questionnaire, which
includes questions about libido, orgasm, ejaculation, erectile function, and general
sexual satisfaction. RESULTS: The overall incidence of sexual dysfunction was 59.1%
(604/1022) when all antidepressants were considered as a whole. There were relevant
differences when the incidence of any type of sexual dysfunction was compared among
different drugs: fluoxetine, 57.7% (161/279); sertraline, 62.9% (100/159);
fluvoxamine, 62.3% (48/77); paroxetine, 70.7% (147/208); citalopram, 72.7% (48/66);
venlafaxine, 67.3% (37/55); mirtazapine, 24.4% (12/49); nefazodone, 8% (4/50);
amineptine, 6.9% (2/29); and moclobemide, 3.9% (1/26). Men had a higher frequency of
sexual dysfunction (62.4%) than women (56.9%), although women had higher severity.
About 40% of patients showed low tolerance of their sexual dysfunction. CONCLUSION:
The incidence of sexual dysfunction with SSRIs and venlafaxine is high, ranging from
58% to 73%, as compared with serotonin-2 (5-HT2) blockers (nefazodone and
mirtazapine), moclobemide, and amineptine.
lym
LostBoyinNC <LostBo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Review
> >
> > PMID: 12385082 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
>
> the best way to overcome AD sexual dysfunction is simple. Either add
> Wellbutrin to your existing AD, or change altogether to Wellbutrin as
> your main antidepressant. Remeron can also be added to existing
> antidepressants for sexual dysfunction.
>
> And testosterone supplements are very useful, especially for males. The
> rest of this stuff, "yohimbe" and stuff...is bullshit.
>
> Eric
>
I didn't say "Yohimbe", I said "Yohimbine", which is a prescription
medication.
"Yohimbe" is a supplement that a lot of meatheads buy at GNC but I am
not aware of its efficacy nor am I recommending it, mainly because I
never tried it.
Yohimbine on the other hand is (1) not a hormone like testosterone,
which you really shouldn't take any supplementary amount of UNLESS YOU
ARE TESTED OUT OF RANGE (LOW) (2) "Mild", which is to say that for me
it had no discernible effect except its targeted one; and (3) Does not
commonly have any appreciable known side effects such as raising blood
pressure (Viagra), weight gain (Remeron) or increased risk of seizure
(Wellbutrin).
It is not "bullshit". I think you have it confused with the one you
see at GNC, which is not surprising since it is kind of an obscure
medication.
http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/yohimb.htm
http://www.drugs.com/MTM/yohimbine.html
Larry Hoover
Thanks for ensuring that we understood the distinction.
Lar
Nom dePlume
> I won't bother t opoint out that you're once again applying a
diagnosis
> to someone simply because you do not agree with him. (Nom? You are
a
> man, right?)
You betcha!
Nom dePlume
news:1135288904....@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> The abstract below summarizes the main suggested biochemical
> mechanisms. Obviously the suggestions for dealing with the problem
are
> not very helpful.
>
> Antidepressants are thought to raise prolactin levels, and this
without
> a doubt lowers lidido and sexual function. This can be countered
> completely by taking the drug cabergoline (Dostinex) at appropriate
> dosages.
Now, that is interesting, for two reasons.
First, I've heard the idea of adding a dopamine agonist to an SSRI for
this purpose, and wondered if it worked. It's one of those ideas I've
never actually heard of anyone trhing.
Second, *I* take Dostinex. I've also taken serotonergic meds, and
noticed the problems with sexual dysfunction. However, I've never
taken them both at the same time, so don't know, from personal
experience, if this combination works. (And I'm not enthused about
adding SSRIs to my regimen just to find out....)
Thanks for the pointers. This is certainly the kind of information I'm
looking for.
David Quirk
lym
> Second, *I* take Dostinex. I've also taken serotonergic meds, and
> noticed the problems with sexual dysfunction. However, I've never
> taken them both at the same time, so don't know, from personal
> experience, if this combination works. (And I'm not enthused about
> adding SSRIs to my regimen just to find out....)
What kinds of dosages are appropriate with this med?
I would ask you what dose you are on if you don't mind saying.
You had mentioned you were on a "small" dose...
Just wondering, thanks.
Nom dePlume
Actually, I take the standard maximum dose of Dostinex, which is 2 mg
per week, in 0.5 mg tablets. It has a long half life, hence the dosage
specified on a per-week basis.
rs1...@yahoo.com
> Another good trick for overcoming SSRI induced sexual dysfunction is
> anabolic steroids. It makes guys hornier and their dicks bigger. Women
> can benefit also, by using the cream form in small amounts and rubbing
> it on their clitoris.
>
> Eric
Anabolic steroids? I think not. These in the long term can actually
cause hypogonadism that either takes a long while to resolve, and in
some cases of serious abusers, never resolves at all. They also
absolutely do not make one's "dick bigger." It's been shown that the
penis stops responding to such hormones around the early teens, and
that it is not possible for the penis to grow after this. Although,
some anabolic steroids are notorious for causing permanent impotence
when improperly abused. They actually can cause the body's own
production of testosterone to shut down through feedback mechanisms
involving FSH and LH, and can cause the testicles to atrophy and
shrink, and in the long term can cause sterility. Some bodybuilders
get away with using anabolic steroids, however, because they do short
cycles of them at controlled dosages followed by recovery periods to
allow their body's own production of testosterone to return. Sometimes
even during such cycles men notice that testicle size has decreased
slightly. .
Sensible low-dose testosterone supplementation does have its place in
treating depression and low libido in (usually older) males to help
boost testosterone levels a little without significant detriment; this
is only for males who are are producing inadequate amounts of
endogenous testosterone. But given that anti-depressants on their own
are not known to cause low testosterone, it would not be wise to take
testosterone or anabolic derivatives of it for the purposes of trying
to counteract ssri-induced sexual dysfunction, which is not even
related to testosterone levels.
Jamie Dolan
On Effexor, from recent experiance, reducing the dose from 225 to 150mg has
helped.
Also adding in dexidrine has helped me.
Again, based upon personal experiance.... In general, however I have
noticed that when a SSRI is discontinued that there is a huge increase in
sex drive and performace for two to four weeks.
-Jamie
"Nom dePlume" <nomdeplume1000-at-yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:doail...@news4.newsguy.com...
> This is a topic that keeps coming up (for obvious reasons), and it one
> that doesn't have a well establishe solution. So I would like to start
> collecting solutions people have found. Please let me know
>
> -what you've tried that does work
>
> -what you've tried that doesn't work
>
> -what you've heard of that is supposed to work
>
> I'll put a list together.
>
> Thanks,
> Nom
>
Jamie Dolan
jamie
"Nom dePlume" <nomdeplume1000-at-yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dog3i...@news4.newsguy.com...
Jamie Dolan
doctor said that smoking pot would reduce testtostrone levels.
"David Quirk" <david...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:10732-43A...@storefull-3231.bay.webtv.net...
> smoke pot
>
Nom dePlume
on-label use is to treat hyperprolactinemia, but, like all dopamine
agonists, it can also be used to treat Parkinson's disease. The use of
dopamine agonists in treating depression has to be considered
experimental at this point, but in my case, has been quite successful.
--
Nom dePlume, Ph.D.
Why, yes, in fact, I am a rocket scientist.
Guide to Medications for Mental Illness:
http://www.geocities.com/nomdeplume1000/
=====
"Jamie Dolan" <jamie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:xxUqf.33918$BZ5....@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
Nom dePlume
> Based upon personal experiance....
>
> On Effexor, from recent experiance, reducing the dose from 225 to
150mg has
> helped.
>
> Also adding in dexidrine has helped me.
>
> Again, based upon personal experiance.... In general, however I
have
> noticed that when a SSRI is discontinued that there is a huge
increase in
> sex drive and performace for two to four weeks.
>
>
> -Jamie
Now, if only there were some way to stop the SSRI every two weeks
without actually taking it to begin with....
lym
LostBoyinNC <LostBo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> dumbass. I already have low testosterone and so do many men who
> complain about "SSRI induced sexual dysfunction." Testosterone is the
> normal rx for hypogonadism.
>
> Eric
>
You don't administer testosterone EITHER WAY without it being tested
and finding it out of range, period, end of story.
Your post about the steroids and testosterone WAS wacky.
Larry Hoover
>
>
> Well I am whacky. I do have severe mental illness.
>
> Eric
Posted by Eric Smith Riddick. Eric S. Riddick.
lym
LostBoyinNC <LostBo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > dumbass. I already have low testosterone and so do many men who
> > > complain about "SSRI induced sexual dysfunction." Testosterone is the
> > > normal rx for hypogonadism.
> > >
> > > Eric
> > >
> > You don't administer testosterone EITHER WAY without it being tested
> > and finding it out of range, period, end of story.
>
> Duh. No shit sherlock.
Well, you WERE just going on about just GIVING it to people.
> >
> > Your post about the steroids and testosterone WAS wacky.
>
> Well I am whacky. I do have severe mental illness.
>
> Eric
>
At the end of the day, I think we are all very sorry about that fact.
Merry Christmas. :-)
Unknown
> I'll take a look, thanks. I must admit to never having heard that
> adding Wellbutrin *worked*--just that it was *tried.*
Below are several abstracts from a quick Medline search with my comments
interdispersed.
J Clin Psychiatry. 2003;64 Suppl 10:11-9.
Antidepressant-related erectile dysfunction: management via avoidance,
switching antidepressants, antidotes, and adaptation.
Labbate LA, Croft HA, Oleshansky MA.
Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Science, Medical University of
South Carolina and Veterans Administration Medical Center, Charleston,
SC, USA. labb...@musc.edu
The ideal antidepressant would control depression with no adverse effect
on sexual function. Erectile dysfunction and other sexual dysfunction
associated with antidepressant medication treatment are problems with
many antidepressants and can lead to patient dissatisfaction and
decreased compliance with treatment. A computerized MEDLINE search
(English language, 1966-2003) was performed using the terms
antidepressive agents, erectile dysfunction, and sexual dysfunction.
Emphasis was placed on studies with specific sexual function
measurements taken before and after treatment and placebo control. Mixed
mediator, nonserotonergic antidepressants that block postsynaptic
serotonin type 2 receptors (nefazodone, mirtazapine) or that primarily
increase dopamine or norepinephrine levels (bupropion) were thought to
be good choices for avoiding antidepressant-associated sexual
dysfunction or for switching patients in whom antidepressant-associated
sexual dysfunction emerged. Comparisons with serotonin reuptake
inhibitors (SRIs) have revealed less desire and orgasm dysfunction with
nonserotonergic bupropion, less orgasm dysfunction with nefazodone, and
superior overall satisfaction with sexual functioning with bupropion or
nefazodone. However, most of these studies have design flaws that make
evidence-based claims of efficacy difficult to substantiate. Agents
proposed for antidote use in antidepressant-associated sexual
dysfunction have either not been studied in men or not proved
efficacious in randomized placebo-controlled trials. Switching to and
augmentation with bupropion or nefazodone have also not clearly shown
efficacy in controlled trials and require care and monitoring to avoid
SRI discontinuation symptoms and loss of antidepressant efficacy. Few
proposed treatment options, apart from avoidance, have proved effective
for antidepressant-associated sexual dysfunction, which can have
negative consequences on depression management.
PMID: 12971811
==========================================================
J Clin Psychiatry. 2005 Jul;66(7):844-8.
A placebo-controlled, randomized, double-blind study of adjunctive
bupropion sustained release in the treatment of SSRI-induced sexual
dysfunction.
DeBattista C, Solvason B, Poirier J, Kendrick E, Loraas E.
Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences, Stanford University
School of Medicine, Stanford, Calif 94305, USA. debat...@stanford.edu
BACKGROUND: Sexual side effects are among the common reasons patients
discontinue selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs). While many
antidotes have been proposed, few have been subjected to double-blind
trials. Some evidence has suggested that bupropion may be an effective
antidote for SSRI-induced sexual dysfunction. In this double-blind
trial, the efficacy of a standard dose of bupropion sustained release
(SR) is evaluated in the treatment of SSRI-induced sexual dysfunction.
METHOD: Patients with a history of SSRI-induced sexual side effects were
randomly assigned to adjunctive treatment with either bupropion SR 150
mg daily or placebo for 6 weeks. Assessments of sexual function and
interest included the Arizona Sexual Experiences Scale (ASEX), Brief
Index of Sexual Functioning, and a 10-point visual analogue scale.
Efficacy was defined as a 50% improvement on the ASEX at the end of 6
weeks. Data were collected from January 1999 to March 2001. RESULTS:
Forty-one patients entered the study and completed the 6-week trial. No
significant differences were seen between placebo and bupropion SR on
the ASEX or on any measure of sexual functioning at the end of the
trial. CONCLUSION: A fixed dose of 150 mg/day of bupropion SR taken in
the morning does not appear to be effective in the treatment of
SSRI-induced sexual dysfunction. Additional trials will be required to
define what role, if any, bupropion might have in the treatment of
SSRI-induced sexual side effects.
PMID: 16013899
=============================================================
However, from the same journal, a meta analysis of seven controlled
trials yields an equal efficiacy of bupropion compared to SSRIs in
treating depression. However, the former had an absence of sexual
side-effects.
J Clin Psychiatry. 2005 Aug;66(8):974-81.
Remission rates following antidepressant therapy with bupropion or
selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors: a meta-analysis of original
data from 7 randomized controlled trials.
Thase ME, Haight BR, Richard N, Rockett CB, Mitton M, Modell JG,
VanMeter S, Harriett AE, Wang Y.
Department of Psychiatry, University of Pittsburgh Medical Center,
Pittsburgh, PA 15213-2593, USA. tha...@upmc.edu
BACKGROUND: Although it is widely believed that the various classes of
antidepressants are equally effective, clinically meaningful differences
may be obscured in individual studies because of a lack of statistical
power. The present report describes a meta-analysis of original data
from a complete set of studies comparing the norepinephrine/dopamine
reuptake inhibitor (NDRI) bupropion with selective serotonin reuptake
inhibitors (SSRIs; sertraline, fluoxetine, or paroxetine). METHOD:
Individual patient data were pooled from a complete set of 7 randomized,
double-blind studies comparing bupropion (N = 732) with SSRIs
(fluoxetine, N = 339; sertraline, N = 343; paroxetine, N = 49) in
outpatients with major depressive disorder (DSM-III-R or DSM-IV); 4
studies included placebo (N = 512). Response and remission rates were
compared at week 8 or endpoint in both the intent-to-treat sample, using
the last-observation-carried-forward (LOCF) method to account for
attrition, and the observed cases. Tolerability data, including
incidence of sexual side effects, were also compared. RESULTS: The LOCF
response and remission rates for the bupropion (62% and 47%) and SSRI
(63% and 47%) groups were similar; both active therapies were superior
to placebo (51% and 36%; all comparisons, p < .001). The same pattern of
results was demonstrated on the observed cases analyses. Although
bupropion and SSRIs were generally well tolerated, SSRI therapy resulted
in significantly higher rates of sexual side effects as compared to both
bupropion and placebo. SSRIs were also associated with more somnolence
and diarrhea, and bupropion was associated with more dry mouth.
CONCLUSION: Bupropion and the SSRIs were equivalently effective and,
overall, both treatments were well tolerated. The principal difference
between these treatments was that sexual dysfunction commonly
complicated SSRI therapy, whereas treatment with bupropion caused no
more sexual dysfunction than placebo.
PMID: 16086611
=============================================================
The following may also be of interest to you:
J Clin Psychiatry. 2004 Aug;65(8):1064-8.
"Dopamine-dependent" side effects of selective serotonin reuptake
inhibitors: a clinical review.
Damsa C, Bumb A, Bianchi-Demicheli F, Vidailhet P, Sterck R, Andreoli A,
Beyenburg S.
Department of Psychiatry, University of Geneva, Geneva, Switzerland.
c.d...@bluewin.ch
OBJECTIVE: Neurophysiologic findings indicate an inhibition of
dopaminergic neurotransmission by selective serotonin reuptake
inhibitors (SSRIs). This article highlights the relationships between
changes in dopaminergic neurotrans-mission induced by SSRIs and the
occurrence of certain side effects such as hyperprolactinemia,
extrapyramidal symptoms, sexual and cognitive dysfunction, galactorrhea,
mammary hypertrophy, and, more rarely, gynecomastia. DATA SOURCES AND
SELECTION: A systematic search of the literature in English, French, and
German from 1980 to 2004 was performed in MEDLINE, EMBASE, and the
Cochrane Library using the keywords SSRI, dopamine, serotonin, side
effects, antidepressants, citalopram, escitalopram, sertraline,
paroxetine, fluoxetine, fluvoxamine, and nefazodone. References cited in
all trials were searched iteratively to identify missing studies. All
studies concerning inhibition of dopaminergic neurotransmission by SSRIs
and SSRI-related side effects were considered. We retained 62
significant articles debating the subject. DATA EXTRACTION AND
SYNTHESIS: We critically reviewed the studies, depending on the
methodologies (case reports, clinical reports, randomized studies), and
assessed the pertinence of "dopamine-dependent" SSRI-related side
effects. The analytic review of these articles suggests that some
specific SSRI-related side effects be classified as dopamine-dependent.
CONCLUSIONS: At a clinical level, it could be useful to underline
dopamine-dependent characteristics of some SSRI-related side effects.
This approach would allow clinicians the opportunity to search other
dopamine-dependent side effects systematically. At a pharmacologic
level, this approach could stimulate the development of molecules with a
"corrective" function on dopamine-dependent side effects of SSRIs by
facilitating dopaminergic neurotransmission.
PMID: 15323590
=============================================================
Neuropsychopharmacology. 2003 Feb;28(2):413-20. Epub 2002 Jul 19.
Changes in human in vivo serotonin and dopamine transporter
availabilities during chronic antidepressant administration.
Kugaya A, Seneca NM, Snyder PJ, Williams SA, Malison RT, Baldwin RM,
Seibyl JP, Innis RB.
Department of Psychiatry, Yale University School of Medicine, New Haven,
CT, USA. akira....@yale.edu
Few studies have demonstrated in vivo alterations of human serotonin and
dopamine transporters (SERTS and DATS) during antidepressant treatment.
The current study measured these transporter availabilities with
[(123)I]beta-CIT single photon emission computed tomography (SPECT)
during administration of selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs)
or a non-SSRI, bupropion. A total of 17 healthy human subjects were
randomly assigned to two different treatment protocols: (1). citalopram
(40 mg/day) followed by augmentation with bupropion (100 mg/day) or (2).
bupropion (100-200 mg/day) for 16 days. Citalopram significantly
inhibited [(123)I]beta-CIT binding to SERT in brainstem (51.4%) and
diencephalon (39.4%) after 8 days of administration, which was similarly
observed after 16 days. In contrast, citalopram significantly increased
striatal DAT binding by 15-17% after 8 and 16 days of administration.
Bupropion and its augmentation to citalopram did not have a significant
effect on DAT or SERT. In 10 depressed patients who were treated with
paroxetine (20 mg/day), a similar increase in DAT and inhibition of SERT
were observed during 6 weeks treatment. The results demonstrated the
inhibition of SERT by SSRI in human in vivo during the chronic treatment
and, unexpectedly, an elevation of DAT. This apparent SSRI-induced
modulation of the dopamine system may be associated with the side
effects of these agents, including sexual dysfunction.
PMID: 12589396
=========================================================================
Here's a URL to the query I used:
rs1...@yahoo.com
>
> dumbass.
Dumbass? This coming from someone who thinks that anabolic steroids
will make one's "dick bigger?"
> I already have low testosterone and so do many men who
> complain about "SSRI induced sexual dysfunction." Testosterone is the
> normal rx for hypogonadism.
Yes, and many men who complain about "SSRI induced sexual dysfunction"
probably have gas, hemorrhoids, arthritis, financial problems, and a
number of other things. If you had any concept of logic you would
think about how the two things are causally related before you make the
logical errors of a small child.
And with regard to the separate topic of hypogonadism:
Exogenous testosterone will actually either have no substantial effect
on hypogonadism, else will worsten hypogonadism. Hyoponadism is a
"reduced or absent secretion of hormones from the sex glands (gonads)."
-- Medline Medical Encyclopedia.
(http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001195.htm)
Supplementing with testosterone or a derivative thereof will not
improve secretion of testosterone from the sex glands. It will
actually -- if anything -- downregulate the body's own production of
testosterone through feedback mechanisms in the body and can make
hypogonadism worse. This is also the leading reason why weightlifters
who use steroids take them in cycles. The presence of testosterone or
a related steroid in the body activates feedback mechanisms and the
body's own production begins to shut down. In order to deal with this,
weightlifters spend some time off the steroid, and in some cases take
something like the drug tamoxifen to treat the residual hypogonadism
"caused" from the steroid cycle. Thus, steroids do not treat
hypogonadism at all.
Endocronologists often prescribe men with hypogonadism carefully
controlled amounts of testosterone in order to raise serum levels of
total and free testosterone into a normal range. When done properly,
this usually does not cause worsening of hypogonadism, but does not
improve it either. The purpose of it is to help "manage" the symptoms,
not treat the underlying pathology.
In some cases, a drug like tamoxifen (Nolvadex) can be used to treat
hypogonadism itself, by upregulating secretion of LH to signal cells in
the testicles to produce more testosterone, and in some cases where
anabolic steroids have caused the testicles to shrink and atropy, if
not too much damage has been done, tamoxifen can help to indirectly
stimulate testicular tissue to return to normal size and function.
rs1...@yahoo.com
>
> I'll take a look, thanks. I must admit to never having heard that
> adding Wellbutrin *worked*--just that it was *tried.*
>From what I've read, it seems questionable whether wellbutrin's effect
on dopamine levels is really that substantial, or a rather mild effect.
Also, the mechanism for how the drug works seems to be less clear than
for most other anti-depressants. In the past, information on the drug
used to stress its effects on nor-epinephrine and serotonin. Now,
references seem to speak mainly to serotonin and dopamine, mentioning
slight effects on nor-epinephrine.
Survector (amineptine) would certainly be a superior choice to
Wellbutrin, if it were available. The only remaining source for this
drug charges about $400/month, however. This is a shame, because this
was sometimes the only effective drug for many chronically depressed
patients who didn't respond to other anti-depressants for the short
time it was available, and it tended not to cause the emotional numbing
that is often complained of with SSRI's, but rather had a pleasant
activating effect often in people with emotional flattening and lack of
motivation without the sexual side effects.
Nom dePlume
namely that adding Wellbutrin to an SSRI probably doesn't alleviate
sexual dysfunction significantly, and that SSRIs probably suppress
libido by interfering with dopamine signaling in the brain (via
serotonin-modulated dopamine emission).
Thanks much,
Nom
rs1...@yahoo.com
LostBoyinNC wrote:
> Gee dumbass...when I was FORMALLY dxed with hypogonadism by a MEDICAL
> DOCTOR, he rxed me ANDROGEL, which is an ANABOLIC STEROID.
And I discussed how and why testosterone is prescribed for patients
with hypogonadism in very simple and clear to understand terms. But my
attempts were obviously wasted, as your reading comprehension and
ability to grasp new simple concepts is so limited that you were unable
to learn anything from what I wrote. You also shouldn't assume that
the people around you are idiots, and should learn to respect and
listen to others as they try to discuss issues with you instead of
calling them names and behaving as a small child.
When you read that testosterone is used for treating hypogonadism, this
does not imply what you think it does, and I could not have been
anymore clear in explaining what exactly it means. Unfortunately, I
also failed to get you to understand that just because two medical
conditions exist in a person does not necessarily mean that two are
causally related to one another, and that treating one should not
necessarily be expected to improve the other.
You advocate in general to people that they use anabolic steroids to
counter "SSRI induced sexual dysfunction" while stating that it worked
for you, while you fail to understand people in general do not have the
underlying disorder of hypogonadism that you have and that steroids are
not appropriate. You improperly associate the two causes of sexual
dysfunction as though they are one in the same and can be ameliorated
by the same treatment.
rs1...@yahoo.com
Nom dePlume wrote:
> Dave - Very interesting! The articles appear to confirm my suspicions,
> namely that adding Wellbutrin to an SSRI probably doesn't alleviate
> sexual dysfunction significantly, and that SSRIs probably suppress
> libido by interfering with dopamine signaling in the brain (via
> serotonin-modulated dopamine emission).
>
> Thanks much,
> Nom
See an opposing study here, though. Conflicting evidence, it seems:
J Clin Psychiatry. 2004 Jan;65(1):62-7.
A placebo-controlled trial of bupropion SR as an antidote for selective
serotonin reuptake inhibitor-induced sexual dysfunction.
Clayton AH, Warnock JK, Kornstein SG, Pinkerton R, Sheldon-Keller A,
McGarvey EL.
University of Virginia, Charlottesville, VA 22903, USA.
ah...@virginia.edu
OBJECTIVE: This study reports the results of a placebo-controlled,
double-blind comparison of bupropion sustained release (SR) as an
antidote for sexual dysfunction versus placebo in 42 patients with
selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI)-induced sexual
dysfunction. Exploratory analyses of the association of testosterone
and sexual functioning in women in the study were also performed.
METHOD: Patients with DSM-IV major depression who experienced a
therapeutic response to any SSRI and were experiencing
medication-induced global or phase-specific sexual dysfunction, as
measured by the Changes in Sexual Functioning Questionnaire (CSFQ),
were randomly assigned to receive either bupropion SR 150 mg b.i.d. or
placebo for 4 weeks in addition to the SSRI. Total testosterone levels
were assessed at baseline and week 4. RESULTS: The difference in global
sexual functioning, based on the total CSFQ score, was not
statistically significant between the 2 groups at week 4, nor were
differences in orgasm, desire/ interest as measured by sexual thoughts,
or self-reported arousal. There was a statistically significant
difference between the 2 groups at week 4 in desire as measured by
self-report feelings of desire and frequency of sexual activity.
Desire/ frequency showed a significantly greater improvement among
those patients receiving bupropion SR compared with placebo (Wilk's F =
5.47, df = 1, p =.024). Frequency was significantly correlated to total
testosterone level at baseline (r = 0.36, p =.027) and at week 4 (r =
0.41, p =.025). CONCLUSIONS: Bupropion SR, as an effective antidote to
SSRI-induced sexual dysfunction, produced an increase in desire to
engage in sexual activity and frequency of engaging in sexual activity
compared with placebo. A larger study is needed to further investigate
this finding.
Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Multicenter Study
Randomized Controlled Trial
PMID: 14744170 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Larry Hoover
>
> rs1...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> LostBoyinNC wrote:
>> > Gee dumbass...when I was FORMALLY dxed with hypogonadism by a MEDICAL
>> > DOCTOR, he rxed me ANDROGEL, which is an ANABOLIC STEROID.
>>
>> And I discussed how and why testosterone is prescribed for patients
>> with hypogonadism in very simple and clear to understand terms. But my
>> attempts were obviously wasted, as your reading comprehension and
>> ability to grasp new simple concepts is so limited that you were unable
>> to learn anything from what I wrote.
>
> sentences it was obvious where you were going and obvious you are full
> of shit.
Now you're a flipping mind reader about what you didn't read and can't understand?
I think I'm going to have to write a disclaimer to post onto ever piece of advice
you offer. I'm really sick and tired of having to correct your mistakes. And here's
a case of a guy who clearly understands the topic he's discussing, and you just go
all foul mouth and act like you're an expert because your doctor treated you a
particular way, and you read three websites. Your doctor also failed to treat your
anemia for over a decade, so I guess that is now "the state of the art", as well?
You owe this guy an apology, and you owe it to yourself to go back and read what he
has written. However, I will predict that you will swear, and reiterate that you
know what you're talking about.
"Not by some dipshit on usenet like yourself.", says he, looking into that mirror
again.
Lar
Larry Hoover
"LostBoyinNC" <LostBo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1135400178....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> The fact of the matter is that there are a lot of studies around
> that point in the direction that many men who complain of low libido
> and sexual difficulties while being treated for major depression ALSO
> have low testosterone!
The subject being discussed is SSRI-induced sexual dysfunction, not the congruence
of major depression and low testosterone levels.
If you can't distinguish between these distinct topics, then STFU.
tro...@yahoo.com
> rs1...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > You advocate in general to people that they use anabolic steroids to
> > counter "SSRI induced sexual dysfunction" while stating that it worked
> > for you, while you fail to understand people in general do not have the
> > underlying disorder of hypogonadism that you have and that steroids are
> > not appropriate.
>
> dense?
See embedded complete copy of your own earlier posting below:
=========================================
"LostBoyinNC" <LostBo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:<1135215991.6...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>...
> Another good trick for overcoming SSRI induced sexual dysfunction is
> anabolic steroids. It makes guys hornier and their dicks bigger. Women
> can benefit also, by using the cream form in small amounts and rubbing
> it on their clitoris.
>
> Eric
>
=========================
Unknown
> Dave - Very interesting! The articles appear to confirm my suspicions,
> namely that adding Wellbutrin to an SSRI probably doesn't alleviate
> sexual dysfunction significantly, and that SSRIs probably suppress
> libido by interfering with dopamine signaling in the brain (via
> serotonin-modulated dopamine emission).
I've seen a number of possible mechanisms proposed, but who knows which
is the major culprit. It could be argued that some of the proposed
mechanisms are secondary consequences of an inhibitory effect on
dopamine (e.g., prolactin comes to mind).
Though not directly related to the subject, check out the following article:
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/162/9/1755
Interesting, huh? I wonder how many individuals have been convinced
that they need more serotonin, and consequently pump themselves full of
serotonin uptake inhibitors and so-called atypical antipsychotics
(because of course dopaminergic stimulation would turn them into
obsessive-compulsive pathological gamblers), when in fact the exact
*opposite* approach would be of greater benefit.
Unknown
> Nom dePlume wrote:
>
>>Dave - Very interesting! The articles appear to confirm my suspicions,
>>namely that adding Wellbutrin to an SSRI probably doesn't alleviate
>>sexual dysfunction significantly, and that SSRIs probably suppress
>>libido by interfering with dopamine signaling in the brain (via
>>serotonin-modulated dopamine emission).
>>
>>Thanks much,
>>Nom
>
>
> See an opposing study here, though. Conflicting evidence, it seems:
Read carefully and you'll notice that there was no significant
difference between groups in "global" sexual functioning, however. A
difference was only observed over two parameters. Furthermore, that
study preceded the negative one in the same journal, which doesn't seem
to strengthen the case for bupriopion.
Unknown
> rs1...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>>Nom dePlume wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I'll take a look, thanks. I must admit to never having heard that
>>>adding Wellbutrin *worked*--just that it was *tried.*
>>
>>>From what I've read, it seems questionable whether wellbutrin's effect
>>on dopamine levels is really that substantial, or a rather mild effect.
>> Also, the mechanism for how the drug works seems to be less clear than
>>for most other anti-depressants. In the past, information on the drug
>>used to stress its effects on nor-epinephrine and serotonin. Now,
>>references seem to speak mainly to serotonin and dopamine, mentioning
>>slight effects on nor-epinephrine.
>
>
>
> Wellbutrin is THE main adjunctive drug USA doctors rely on to counter
> SSRI induced sexual dysfunction. It worked well for me, I dont know
> what your fucking problem with good ole Wellbutrin is.
Well, the question isn't "which drug do doctors in the U.S. most
frequently prescribe to counter...", but which drugs actually have
demonstrated evidence of effectiveness. You need controls to do that.
Larry Hoover
> It worked well for me,
So what? Placebo effect.
> I dont know
> what your fucking problem with good ole Wellbutrin is.
The problem is yours, as you said. You don't know. You don't know the difference
between anecdote and clinical trial, apparently. Nor do you even consider that you
are a freek of nature, who can have a hypertensive crisis from artificial licorice
flavouring.
Larry Hoover
>
> Jamie Dolan wrote:
>> When I asked my doctor about testostrone levels at my visit this week, My
>> doctor said that smoking pot would reduce testtostrone levels.
>
> this is true, smoking pot turns you into a pussy.
>
> Eric
Define pussy.
rs1...@yahoo.com
> rs1...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > Nom dePlume wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > I'll take a look, thanks. I must admit to never having heard that
> > > adding Wellbutrin *worked*--just that it was *tried.*
> >
> > >From what I've read, it seems questionable whether wellbutrin's effect
> > on dopamine levels is really that substantial, or a rather mild effect.
> > Also, the mechanism for how the drug works seems to be less clear than
> > for most other anti-depressants. In the past, information on the drug
> > used to stress its effects on nor-epinephrine and serotonin. Now,
> > references seem to speak mainly to serotonin and dopamine, mentioning
> > slight effects on nor-epinephrine.
>
>
> what your fucking problem with good ole Wellbutrin is. Maybe you have
> low testosterone levels? Ever had yours checked? AM levels? Total and
> serum testosterone?
What are you talking about? I never even said I had problems with
depression, let alone low libido or other related problems. I also
never said I had a personal problem with Wellbutrin. You don't seem to
be able to read and comprehend much of anything.
> Survector is ILLEGAL to possess in the USA. Its been banned in all the
> European countries I know of and is available only in exotic places
> like Brazil. If you want to move to Brazil just to get some Survector,
> be my guest.
Survector is not illegal to possess in the USA. It is not a scheduled
drug. For instance, if a non-scheduled does not have FDA approval in
the U.S. it can still be prescribed by U.S. doctors for order at an
overseas pharmacy. Who are you trying to fool, anyway? (Yourself?
Because I really don't think you're fooling anyone else!) Do you
really think you're fooling anyone on this newsgroup into thinking you
have a clue what you are talking about?
I'm not going to bother anymore with your endless nonsense.
Nom dePlume
news:oOudnfSy6pNRQDHe...@rcn.net...
A good question, and one I've wondered about, too. My depression
requires dopaminergic medications, and serotonergic medications make
me worse. This is not a generally recognized pattern in psychiatry
today, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen--it just may mean that
a significant number of people have the same condition I do, and never
get treated for it successfully.
Nom dePlume
news:1135394507.8...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Yes, I agree. I found Wellbutrin's dopaminergic effects not to be
significant, and required stronger dopaminergic medications to get the
necessary benefit. For this reason, I consider Wellbutrin weakly
dopaminergic, and primarily affecting norepinephrine (hence
stimulating).
Survector is an interesting medication, though sadly not an option any
longer. However, there are other strongly dopaminergic medications
(selegiline, dopamine agonists); they just aren't commonly prescribed
by psychiatrists for depression. I hope the utility of dopaminergic
medications will be recognized more over time, for people who need
them. Certainly they've done wonders for me.
Cassandra
> > Interesting, huh? I wonder how many individuals have been convinced
> > that they need more serotonin, and consequently pump themselves full
> of
> > serotonin uptake inhibitors and so-called atypical antipsychotics
> > (because of course dopaminergic stimulation would turn them into
> > obsessive-compulsive pathological gamblers), when in fact the exact
> > *opposite* approach would be of greater benefit.
>
> A good question, and one I've wondered about, too. My depression
> requires dopaminergic medications, and serotonergic medications make
> me worse. This is not a generally recognized pattern in psychiatry
> today, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen--it just may mean that
> a significant number of people have the same condition I do, and never
> get treated for it successfully.
> --
VERY good question, and makes me think of some new work Walter Kaye is
doing at UPMC with Anorexia Nervosa. Seems that anorexics have an
abnormal serotonin system, which may be related to the symptoms of the
disorder. There is too much serotonin in the CNS, and it's too active,
is the bottom line about it. That makes sense to me, since my reaction
to most SSRIs is nearly to explode with anxiety and agitation. Makes
me think that too little serotonin ain't my problem, y'know?
>From what I've read over the years, it seems as though there's so
little known about what really goes on with depression, that doctors
fall prey to assumptions that may not hold up. Like that we need more
serotonin if we're depressed.
Personally, my question is whether depression is ONE disorder, or a
cluster of possibly unrelated disorders with a common symptomology?
Ditto bipolar.
Hm... Lots to ponder...
Cassandra
> I didnt even read your crap, cause when I read the first couple
> sentences it was obvious where you were going and obvious you are full
> of shit.
That's fairly obvious. Goes with that short attention span, huh?
> Look Mr. dense, the normal treatment for hypogonadism is administration
> of testosterone. PERIOD.
Unless it's a combination of estrogen and progesterone, right? After
all, women get hypogonadism, too. Or doesn't that show up on your
radar? Or did you end up taking the estrogen and progesterone?
rs1...@yahoo.com
> The hell Survector is not illegal to possess in the USA. It has been
> withdrawn from most if not all European countries and reasons given
> mostly revolve around fears of being abused. Survector is illegal to
> import into the USA...period.
Survector isn't illegal to "possess" in the USA. Only "scheduled"
drugs are illegal to "possess". And did you really think I wouldn't
notice how you just tried to sneak in the phrase "illegal to import"
after all this time of using the phrase "illegal to possess"?
(obviously you just now did a little web search). Did you really think
I wouldn't notice?
Survector is not illegal possess. It is "technically" under 21 U.S.C.
section 331(d) and 355(a) illegal to import and transport interstate;
however, the FDA has a policy known as "Coverage of Personal
Importations" where it allows importation of certain drugs under the
following conditions:
"1) the intended use [of the drug] is unapproved and for a serious
condition for which effective treatment may not be available
domestically either through commercial or clinical means;
[Literally hundreds/thousands? of prescriptions for patients were
written by doctors for prescriptions of Survector (after losing FDA
approved approval) to be used at overseas pharmacies because a suitable
substitute for Survector does not exist in the same pharmacological
class, and patients were unresponsive to other types of
anti-depressants. The FDA and customs allowed all such importations of
Survector into the U.S. with proof of prescription]
2) there is no known commercialization or promotion to persons residing
in the U.S. by those involved in the distribution of the product at
issue;
3) the product is considered not to represent an unreasonable risk;
and
4) the individual seeking to import the product affirms in writing that
it is for the patient's own use (generally not more than a 3 month
supply) and provides the name and address of the doctor licensed in the
U.S. responsible for his or her treatment with the product, or provides
evidence that the product is for the continuation of a treatment begun
in a foreign country." (Emphasis added)
You see, Eric, as likely many people who read this newsgroup are aware,
years ago there were quite an abundance of people who imported
Survector under this FDA pilot scheme. Now the drug is all but nearly
disappeared from the world market, however.
Unknown
> A good question, and one I've wondered about, too. My depression
> requires dopaminergic medications, and serotonergic medications make
> me worse. This is not a generally recognized pattern in psychiatry
> today, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen--it just may mean that
> a significant number of people have the same condition I do, and never
> get treated for it successfully.
Serotonin uptake inhibitors fare only marginally better than placebo in
controlled trials (the ones in which they did better than placebo at
al). It wouldn't surprise me if dopaminergic medications performed at
least as well.
rs1...@yahoo.com
>
> Well WHY bother talking about it, when it simply is not available
> anywhere? Are you stupid? Yeah...thats it...you are stupid.
It's interesting how after you are continually proven wrong that you
continue to call others "stupid." And had you actually paid attention,
you'd notice that I've made it clear that it is still available, but
that it's very expensive. Some people with the money to spend or those
who budget for it considering it a necessity for chronic depression (as
no other anti-depressant has worked for them) are still buying it.
I think it's sad that you have some sort of obsessive-compulsive need
to somehow "come out on top" in every thread you participate in,
especially since you habitually fail to do so and only succeed in
embarrassing yourself. You aren't fooling anyone into thinking you
know what you're talking about. So why do you bother?
Even the most reasonable, intelligent persons who post their opinions
on usenet on a regular basis are occassionally mistaken or wrong about
something, and are willing to admit to it and move on without feeling
the need to resort to the type of "face-saving" tactics that you
attempt to employ. These people use newsgroups both to share what they
know, and to learn from others. They don't pretend to know everything,
and are appreciative when someone else corrects their misunderstanding
or posts information that they can learn from. Unfortunately, you do
not to fall into this category.
> Survector
> is a stupid drug thats not available anywhere in the Western world, so
> why bother even discussing it? Depressed people need REAL WORLD
> solutions, not being teased with philosophical discussions of "what
> if."
>
> Eric
Unknown
> Dave wrote:
>
>>LostBoyinNC wrote:
>>>Wellbutrin is THE main adjunctive drug USA doctors rely on to counter
>>>SSRI induced sexual dysfunction. It worked well for me, I dont know
>>>what your fucking problem with good ole Wellbutrin is.
>>
>>Well, the question isn't "which drug do doctors in the U.S. most
>>frequently prescribe to counter...", but which drugs actually have
>>demonstrated evidence of effectiveness. You need controls to do that.
>
>
> No, the question is "which drugs work in the REAL WORLD, that people
> can actually get prescribed." You sound like a nerd.
Oh, the Real World. By that I assume you mean a noncontrolled
environment where there's no distinction between placebo and drug
effect. You sound like a half-wit.
Unknown
> hey "Dave," doctors around the USA all prescribe Wellbutrin for SSRI
> sexual induced dysfunction.
So?
> They do this because Wellbutrin works for most and its highly available.
Evidence?
> Your overanalyzation of this issue and your FIXATION ON SEX makes me
> think you are some kind of nerdy weirdo.
Your small brain size and moronic contributions make me think you're an
idiot.
Cassandra
> > Oh, the Real World. By that I assume you mean a noncontrolled
> > environment where there's no distinction between placebo and drug
> > effect. You sound like a half-wit.
>
> most and its highly available.
Not to put too fine a point on it, many doctors prescribe Wellbutrin
for SSRI induced sexual problems because that's the only thing they
know of to do. They have no idea that it works, and it certainly
doesn't work for most people. What's more, the contraindications for
WB mean that many people can't take it at all.
It's not only your ignorance that amazes me, it's the fact that you go
to such great lengths to expose the extent of it to so many people.
And then, like a very small child, whine and cry when anyone speaks up.
Your immaturity is rather staggering.
>
> Please go away...
>
Frankly, since you don't offer anything constructive here, only the
destructive crap you spew, I think we maybe should have a vote to see
whether you or Dave should be the one to go.
Larry Hoover
>
> Hey ding dong...get this thru your dense head. SURVECTOR is not
> available in any Western countries!
So make your own.
http://www.amineptine.org/
> Has a light bulb gone off in your head yet? Talking about Survector is
> basically talking about nomifensine. It aint gonna happen.
>
> You are stupid as shit and a retard.
>
> Eric
This is where your behaviour is just indefensible.
Posted by Eric S. Riddick, Eric Smith Riddick
Larry Hoover
"Cassandra" <babb...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1135462393.4...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Frankly, since you don't offer anything constructive here, only the
> destructive crap you spew, I think we maybe should have a vote to see
> whether you or Dave should be the one to go.
If only it was as easy as that...
Nom dePlume
> > A good question, and one I've wondered about, too. My depression
> > requires dopaminergic medications, and serotonergic medications
make
> > me worse. This is not a generally recognized pattern in psychiatry
> > today, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen--it just may mean
that
> > a significant number of people have the same condition I do, and
never
> > get treated for it successfully.
> > --
>
>
> VERY good question, and makes me think of some new work Walter Kaye
is
> doing at UPMC with Anorexia Nervosa. Seems that anorexics have an
> abnormal serotonin system, which may be related to the symptoms of
the
> disorder. There is too much serotonin in the CNS, and it's too
active,
> is the bottom line about it. That makes sense to me, since my
reaction
> to most SSRIs is nearly to explode with anxiety and agitation.
Makes
> me think that too little serotonin ain't my problem, y'know?
Indeed. Certainly taking an SSRI is bad for someone who has Bipolar
Disorder, in the absence of a mood stabilizer, so there is one clear
example that increasing serotonin (alone) is bad for some people. I
could believe that serotonin excess causes other problems for other
people. Your case makes me wonder if tianeptine would be good for you,
and ditto for anorexics.
>
> >From what I've read over the years, it seems as though there's so
> little known about what really goes on with depression, that doctors
> fall prey to assumptions that may not hold up. Like that we need
more
> serotonin if we're depressed.
I agree.
> Personally, my question is whether depression is ONE disorder, or a
> cluster of possibly unrelated disorders with a common symptomology?
In fact, I'm convinced that this is the case. "Depression" is a
diagnostic label applied to a set of symptoms, but there is no single
underlying biological disorder yet identified. My bet is that there
will turn out to be many.
Larry Hoover
"Freedom of Speech" <LostBo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1135467616.7...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> Stop posting my full name on here Larry.
>
> Eric
Free speech. Public domain.
If you speak like an ass, I will post your full name, so Google can find you
efficiently. Don't want to get you confused with some journalism student in Alberta.
My next step will be to begin going back and doing the same thing to some of your
classic posts. If you push. Your call. It's always been your call. If you won't
behave yourself, there will be consequences. You are the worst thing that has ever
happened to this group. I'm tired of it.
Why don't you run for public office? I'll be your campaign manager.
Merry Christmas.
Cassandra
> to boost libido and overcome sexual dysfunction, but without providing
> too much dopamine which can be problematic for many mood disordered
> people.
Evidence? Studies providing evidence of this?
> > Evidence?
>
> Dont pull that one on me, you freak. Everybody in psychiatry and the
> psychopharmacology world knows that Wellbutrin tends to increase libido
Hello? If this is true -- and it doesn't fit anything anyone else has
ever said to me -- then those "everybody in psychiatry" etc "know" this
because of EVIDENCE provided by studies, research, etc. They've read
papers detailing the results of double blind placebo controlled
studies, for example.
You, Eric, are the ONLY person I've ever come across who can
extrapolate from "My psychiatrist told me" to "Everybody in psychiatry
and psychopharmacology knows." Most of us might qualify it. But
that's something that comes with the same sort of maturity that doesn't
insult someone simply because you disagree.
And as for your insistence that low testosterone is the only cause of
sexual dysfunction,. Eric, go learn something. Grow a clue.
MUCH of the SSRI related sexual dysfunction is related to delayed or
absent orgasm. It doesn't necessarily mean no libido -- anorgasmia is
a problem for a whole lot of people out there. And yeah, after a while
it makes it easy to avoid sex entirely. Anorgasmia does not respond to
testosterone. It does, however, respond to drugs that block the action
of serotonin for a while.
Why do I bother? You're not going to listen, you'll likely insult me,
probably swear at me -- again -- and now accuse me of being someone
else. Grow up, little boy. You can come back and play later, when you
can relate to grown ups appropriately.
Jamie Dolan
"Freedom of Speech" <LostBo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1135467498.7...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Dave wrote:
> > LostBoyinNC wrote:
> >
> >
> > > hey "Dave," doctors around the USA all prescribe Wellbutrin for SSRI
> > > sexual induced dysfunction.
> >
> > So?
>
> You are a smartass "Dave." Wellbutrin is the primary drug doctors use
> in the USA for complaints of "SSRI sexual dysfunction." The reasons for
> this include:
>
> 1) it simply works well. Wellbutrin provides enough dopamine reuptake
> to boost libido and overcome sexual dysfunction, but without providing
> too much dopamine which can be problematic for many mood disordered
> people.
>
> 2) Wellbutrin is not a controlled substance. It is not physically
> addictive.
>
> 3) Wellbutrin is readily available.
>
> 4) Most patients can tolerate it fine. Those who have trouble
> tolerating it include those with epilepsy or history of seizures and
> head injuries, anorexics/bulemics and those with severe anxiety
> disorderes.
>
> If a person has a severe anxiety disorder, Remeron can be added to the
> SSRI, which oftentimes provides the same sort of sexual boost some SSRI
> users need. But without aggravating any underlying anxiety. Remeron in
> fact, is an effective treatment for anxiety disorders.
>
> >
> > > They do this because Wellbutrin works for most and its highly
available.
> >
> > Evidence?
>
> Dont pull that one on me, you freak. Everybody in psychiatry and the
> psychopharmacology world knows that Wellbutrin tends to increase libido
> and my own psychiatrist told me "Wellbutrin can intensify orgasms."
>
> I found Wellbutrin to be somewhat of an aphrodisiac compared to other
> antidepressants Ive tried.
>
> >
> > > Your overanalyzation of this issue and your FIXATION ON SEX makes me
> > > think you are some kind of nerdy weirdo.
> >
> > Your small brain size and moronic contributions make me think you're an
> > idiot.
>
> If Wellbutrin didnt help your sexual dysfunction, you must have low
> testosterone, dingleberry boy. Perhaps getting one of those penis pumps
> would allow you to boost your self esteem.
>
> Eric
>
Nom dePlume
news:jYCrf.37381$dO2...@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
> Will WB only help with libido or can it help with erections also?
If you have Erectile Dysfunction (ED), and your libido is fine,
Wellbutrin isn't going to help, but Viagra or equivalent will. If you
have no libido, then Wellbutrin *may* help--but no one can guarantee
that it will.
Jamie Dolan
med change from effexor to WB or if something else is going on. I was just
fine earlier in the day, and fine with a girl when we where fooling around,
but when it came to sex, I had a hell of a time, I really couldent even
funcion. It is the fist time this has ever happened to me, and I have no
idea why.... I have been reducing the effexor dose, and had not started the
wb yet, so there are no new meds in the picture, and everything was working
just find with women last week,,, so I cant really understand what the hell
happened... any thoughs? I was soooo embarassed, and I just don't know what
the hell happened, I am only 26....
j
"Nom dePlume" <nomdeplume1000-at-yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:don01...@news1.newsguy.com...
Jamie Dolan
last couple days....
With my reduction in effexor, my over function has been good, however, I
just ran into this ed problem last night, and it is alarming to say the
least...
j
"Dirk Diggler" <LostBo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1135552084....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> Wellbutrin helped both my libido AND with erectile dysfunction. It
> didnt restore either of them to normal (pre-depression levels) but it
> did help a lot. Looking back on it, I probably had low testosterone or
> borderline low T levels when I took Wellbutrin. I say that going by the
> reaction I had to testosterone and to the fact I totally stopped having
> nocturnal spontaneous erections when my depression developed, along
> with severe loss of libido. I also had "dry orgasms." Where no
> ejaculatory fluid would ejaculate...this was when my depression was at
> its worst in late 97/early 98 and I wasnt on any meds. Id have this
> very weak feeling (extremely weak) "orgasm" and no semen would come
> out. I couldnt really get it hard then either.
>
> Now THAT IS sexual dysfunction!!!!!
>
> Another drug rarely mentioned here for sexual dysfunction is Remeron.
>
> Eric
Nom dePlume
> All of the sudden, I started having ed, but I am not sure if it is
due to my
> med change from effexor to WB or if something else is going on. I
was just
> fine earlier in the day, and fine with a girl when we where fooling
around,
> but when it came to sex, I had a hell of a time, I really couldent
even
> funcion. It is the fist time this has ever happened to me, and I
have no
> idea why.... I have been reducing the effexor dose, and had not
started the
> wb yet, so there are no new meds in the picture, and everything was
working
> just find with women last week,,, so I cant really understand what
the hell
> happened... any thoughs? I was soooo embarassed, and I just don't
know what
> the hell happened, I am only 26....
I wouldn't worry unless the problem continued for a span of a few
weeks. All sorts of strange, transient phenomena can occur during
dosage changes. If it persists, then you should discuss it with your
doctor, but it's premature to be concerned at this point.
Jamie Dolan
Its just easy to freak out when something happens to you for the first
time....
Thanks
J
"Nom dePlume" <nomdeplume1000-at-yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:donn0...@news1.newsguy.com...
Unknown
> VERY good question, and makes me think of some new work Walter Kaye is
> doing at UPMC with Anorexia Nervosa. Seems that anorexics have an
It's coincidental you should mention that. I skimmed an article on that
very subject the other day, of which he was one of the authors (it
appeared in the results of my search on a related topic that had been of
interest to me). The specific article was:
Frank, G. K. and W. H. Kaye (2005). "Positron emission tomography
studies in eating disorders: multireceptor brain imaging, correlates
with behavior and implications for pharmacotherapy." Nuclear Medicine
and Biology 32(7): 755-61.
And I also see his name attached to a related citation:
Bailer, U. F., G. K. Frank, et al. (2005). "Altered brain serotonin
5-HT1A receptor binding after recovery from anorexia nervosa measured by
positron emission tomography and [carbonyl11C]WAY-100635." Archives of
General Psychiatry 62(9): 1032-41.
> abnormal serotonin system, which may be related to the symptoms of the
> disorder. There is too much serotonin in the CNS, and it's too active,
> is the bottom line about it. That makes sense to me, since my reaction
> to most SSRIs is nearly to explode with anxiety and agitation. Makes
> me think that too little serotonin ain't my problem, y'know?
My feeling is that as things unravel, it will become clear that the
situation in mood and related disorders is not so much a question of
whether more or less serotonin, dopamine, or whatever is desirable, but
instead will focus on specific receptor *subtypes*, and it very likely
may turn out that we want to reduce stimulation of some serotonergic
receptor subtypes while increasing that of others. Ditto for dopamine.
I think that underscores part of the problem with current medical
therapies involving nonspecific inhibition of transmitter reuptake.
>>From what I've read over the years, it seems as though there's so
> little known about what really goes on with depression, that doctors
> fall prey to assumptions that may not hold up. Like that we need more
> serotonin if we're depressed.
>
> Personally, my question is whether depression is ONE disorder, or a
> cluster of possibly unrelated disorders with a common symptomology?
> Ditto bipolar.
Most of these diagnostic labels serve no medical purpose. They're just
a catalog of for the most part arbitrarily grouped symptoms, but say
nothing about the underlying neurobiology of the disorder. They're
obfuscatory if anything, because they imply relationships that may not
exist outside of psychology.
Unknown
> Dave wrote:
>
>>LostBoyinNC wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>hey "Dave," doctors around the USA all prescribe Wellbutrin for SSRI
>>>sexual induced dysfunction.
>>
>>So?
>
>
> You are a smartass "Dave." Wellbutrin is the primary drug doctors use
> in the USA for complaints of "SSRI sexual dysfunction." The reasons for
> this include:
So exactly *what* is your point?
<snip>
No need to repeat the error of your ways.
>>>They do this because Wellbutrin works for most and its highly available.
>>
>>Evidence?
>
>
> Dont pull that one on me, you freak.
That one gets you every time, I take it?
> If Wellbutrin didnt help your sexual dysfunction, you must have low
> testosterone, dingleberry boy. Perhaps getting one of those penis pumps
> would allow you to boost your self esteem.
I haven't experienced sexual dysfunction, nor am I on an SSRI drug, so
that doesn't make any sense.
lym
Dolan <jamie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> All of the sudden, I started having ed, but I am not sure if it is due to my
> med change from effexor to WB or if something else is going on. I was just
> fine earlier in the day, and fine with a girl when we where fooling around,
> but when it came to sex, I had a hell of a time, I really couldent even
> funcion. It is the fist time this has ever happened to me, and I have no
> idea why.... I have been reducing the effexor dose, and had not started the
> wb yet, so there are no new meds in the picture, and everything was working
> just find with women last week,,, so I cant really understand what the hell
> happened... any thoughs? I was soooo embarassed, and I just don't know what
> the hell happened, I am only 26....
You shouldn't be embarassed, perhaps she felt embarassed that she
didn't get you excited enough. It's a physical thing, not a reflection
of "you".
lym
Dolan <jamie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Medical Doc said all testostrone levels are good, unless that changed in the
> last couple days....
>
> With my reduction in effexor, my over function has been good, however, I
> just ran into this ed problem last night, and it is alarming to say the
> least...
>
> j
>
These types of problems are not related to testosterone levels nearly
as much as Eric seems to think.
lym
Cassandra <babb...@excite.com> wrote:
That isn't the way it works anyway. Anyone can post here. Unfortunate
at times, maybe, but even if you vote someone off the island, they can
still post here anyway.
I find Dave's authoritative tone a bit annoying myself. He might want
to introduce himself to the group if he plans on being this contentious
in every thread. Is he a doctor? He says he doesn't have depression
and is not on medication, so actually he has no logical reason to be
here unless to troll, the way I see it.
If pressed, so far I "vote for" Eric to stay.