Put Paxil in the USA water supply
Velvet Elvis
> Paxil should be automatically placed in the US water supply. Doing so
> would ease human suffering in this country, create a less hostile country
> and generally help many people. It would prevent major depressive episodes
> from developing in many cases. It would eliminate the need for psychiatry,
> as the drug would already be in everyone's system.
It would also help deal with overpopulation as there would be fewer
unplanned pregnancies.
Seriously though, what should the bi-polars in the world do if there is an
SSRI in the drinking water? Drink bottled water?
While we're talking diabolical social engineering . . .
I've always liked the idea of making a NASCAR track in a domed arena. All
the rednecks get in there to watch a race, midway through the carbon
monoxide level rises, turning the thing into a gas chamber seating 20,000.
The effect on property values alone would be worth it as there would be
n people left to park 14 broken down car's in your neighbor's front
yard. Hate crimes would go down. It would be easier to find a place to
st at waffle house at 2AM. The benefits go on and on.
Velvet Elvis
> << Subject: Re: Put Paxil in the USA water supply From: Velvet Elvis
> gam...@REMOVEsofthome.THISnet Date: Sun, Mar 28, 2004 3:06 PM
> Message-id: <pan.2004.03.28....@REMOVEsofthome.THISnet>
>
> On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 18:58:52 +0000, LostBoyinNC wrote:
>
>> Paxil should be automatically placed in the US water supply. Doing so
>> would ease human suffering in this country, create a less hostile
>> country and generally help many people. It would prevent major
>> depressive episodes from developing in many cases. It would eliminate
>> the need for psychiatry, as the drug would already be in everyone's
>> system.
>
> It would also help deal with overpopulation as there would be fewer
> unplanned pregnancies.
>
> Seriously though, what should the bi-polars in the world do if there is an
> SSRI in the drinking water? Drink bottled water?
>
> -------------------------------------------------
>
> I dont know...didnt think about that. Everybody else it would help though.
> But, since so many of these anti-psychiatry assholes also seem to have
> left wing, socialized political views maybe their own perspective of
> "whats good for the masses is best" would apply here?
>
> Most of these anti-psychiatry types are commies, so why not apply their
> type of logic back on them?
Actually, I detect a strong libertarian/anarchist vibe from a lot of them.
I, on the other hand, am a socialist and Marx scholar. Mental illness
doesn't recognize political affiliations.
>>While we're talking diabolical social engineering . . .
>
> I've always liked the idea of making a NASCAR track in a domed arena. All
> the rednecks get in there to watch a race, midway through the carbon
> monoxide level rises, turning the thing into a gas chamber seating 20,000.
> The effect on property values alone would be worth it as there would be n
> people left to park 14 broken down car's in your neighbor's front yard.
> Hate crimes would go down. It would be easier to find a place to st at
> waffle house at 2AM. The benefits go on and on.
>
> -------------------------------------------------
>
> Hey! Im a redneck...rednecks are people too, you know. I just have three
> cars in my yard. I do enjoy sitting on my front porch watching the bug
> zapper go off while I drink beer at night and my gut hangs out...thats
> pretty redneck huh?
I"m just a couple of generations away from it, so I feel I can make fun of
rednecks with impunity as I'm making fun of many of my own relatives.
Major Zoloft
suppositories.
The Major.
LostBoyinNC wrote:
> Paxil should be automatically placed in the US water supply. Doing so would
> ease human suffering in this country, create a less hostile country and
> generally help many people. It would prevent major depressive episodes from
> developing in many cases. It would eliminate the need for psychiatry, as the
> drug would already be in everyone's system.
>
> Both suicides and murders would decrease. Violent crimes would decrease, as
> criminals with increased serotonin in their brains would be calmer, nicer to
> their fellow human beings and have better impulse control. There would be less
> horn honking in traffic jams too. There would be fewer "crazy people" running
> around if Paxil was automatically put in the US water supply.
>
> Increasing serotonin levels in the brain has been proven to decrease anger,
> increase civilized behavior towards your fellow human being and increase
> imagination and creativity. All the things for a better human race. Paxil does
> this, with minimal side effects. Thus, Paxil is the "anti-anger" and
> "civilizer" drug.
>
> I vote for legislation to be presented to the US Congress and Senate where the
> SSRI Paxil automatically be placed in the US water supply. How could anyone
> turn down such a wonderful idea?
>
> Eric
>
> "Except that their society is more highly evolved. They dont have no wars, they
> got no monetary system. They dont have any leaders, because I mean, each man is
> a leader."
>
> Jack Nicholson from "Easy Rider"
Tim Kettring
watering the grass with paxil seems like a waste of paxil LOL
Pablo
news:20040328142224...@mb-m18.aol.com...
> << Subject: Re: Put Paxil in the USA water supply
> From: Velvet Elvis gam...@REMOVEsofthome.THISnet
> Date: Sun, Mar 28, 2004 3:06 PM
> Message-id: <pan.2004.03.28....@REMOVEsofthome.THISnet>
>
>
> > Paxil should be automatically placed in the US water supply. Doing so
> > would ease human suffering in this country, create a less hostile
country
> > and generally help many people. It would prevent major depressive
episodes
> > from developing in many cases. It would eliminate the need for
psychiatry,
> > as the drug would already be in everyone's system.
>
> It would also help deal with overpopulation as there would be fewer
> unplanned pregnancies.
>
> Seriously though, what should the bi-polars in the world do if there is an
> SSRI in the drinking water? Drink bottled water?
>
>
> I dont know...didnt think about that. Everybody else it would help though.
But,
> since so many of these anti-psychiatry assholes also seem to have left
wing,
> socialized political views maybe their own perspective of "whats good for
the
> masses is best" would apply here?
>
> Most of these anti-psychiatry types are commies, so why not apply their
type of
> logic back on them?
>
>
>
> I've always liked the idea of making a NASCAR track in a domed arena. All
> the rednecks get in there to watch a race, midway through the carbon
> monoxide level rises, turning the thing into a gas chamber seating 20,000.
> The effect on property values alone would be worth it as there would be
> n people left to park 14 broken down car's in your neighbor's front
> yard. Hate crimes would go down. It would be easier to find a place to
> st at waffle house at 2AM. The benefits go on and on.
>
>
> Hey! Im a redneck...rednecks are people too, you know.
> I just have three cars in my yard. I do enjoy sitting on my front porch
> watching the bug zapper go off while I drink beer at night and my gut
hangs
> out...thats pretty redneck huh?
>
to
> BAN PAXIL!!!!!
Hahahaha!
Just watch out for that still out back in the woods. Don't want any
moonshine explosions!
jake
"I Love Paxil" <deeps...@aol.comsuckthis> wrote in message
> << Actually, I detect a strong libertarian/anarchist vibe from a lot of
them.
> I, on the other hand, am a socialist and Marx scholar. Mental illness
> doesn't recognize political affiliations >>
>
>
>
> Eric
NO...that would be you with your nose too close to your own asshole..
Some say you talk out of your ass but I tell them its just an echo..
jake
"Velvet Elvis" <gam...@REMOVEsofthome.THISnet> wrote in message
news:pan.2004.03.28....@REMOVEsofthome.THISnet...
you have it ass backwards
the medical model serves to depoliticize and marginalize social deviance
no self-respecting marxist would be obsessed with a fringe cult..they look
to the material conditions of existence for explanations
try looking at a marxist theorist and historian of mentall illmess like
Andrew Scull...you might not be so led astray by right wing reactionary
crackpots..
or ... Redlich, Social Class and Mental Illness
Andrew Scull, "The domestication of madness." In: Social order/mental
disorder. Berkeley: Univ. of California Press
http://www.usyd.edu.au/hps/staff/hans/hss250.htm
HSS 250: The Social History of Mental Illness
Hans Pols (Homepage)
Taught at the University of Pennsylvania, 1995, 1996
Themes
This course will explore the social construction of mental illness
throughout American history, from the eighteenth century until the present
time. It will consider changing definitions of insanity, as well as
conceptions of the sane and normal, changing attitudes towards the mentally
ill, and the development of institutional, medical, and cultural responses
to the mentally ill. The course will start with the establishment of mental
asylums in the 18th and 19th centuries in America as the prime method of
dealing with mental illness. The rise of psychiatry as a medical specialty
in relation the asylum care will be investigated as well.
For this century, changing conceptions of mental illness, psychological
problems, and the mind will be studied. The last few weeks will be devoted
to more or less contemporary topics: the popularity of prozac and other
pharmacological means to influence emotion and behavior; the repression of
traumatic memories, as well as false memories and suggestive psychotherapy;
and the current wave of multiple personality disorder. Each of these issues
will be explored in historical context; we will search for patterns and
explanations of change. A critical question to bear in mind is to which
extent mental illness is socially constructed, how does society arrive at
its concepts of and attitudes towards both emotional and behavioral
disturbance as well as notions of adjustment and normality?
Required reading
Susan Sheehan, Is there no place on earth for me? Boston: Houghton Mifflin,
1982.
Elaine Showalter, The female malady: Women, madness, and English culture,
1830-1980. New York: Pantheon, 1985. [Sold out; copies of selected chapters
will be made available.]
Bulkpack.
The books are available at the Penn Book Center, 3726 Walnut St. The
bulkpack is available at Wharton Reprographics, 400 Steinberg Dietrich Hall.
The final grade will be based on:
Two take-home exercises done during the course (both 15%)
A final take-home exam (short paper) (40%)
Class presentation (20%)
Participation (10%)
1. Sept. 10. Orientation
Orientation, first (overview) lecture.
Video: Anatole Litvak, The Snake Pit, 1948.
There are several interesting movies that have mental illness and/or mental
hospitals as their theme, for example: One flew over cuckoo's nest; An angel
at my table; I never promised you a rose garden; Psycho; Awakenings; Rain
man. What function do mentally ill people have in Hollywood movies?
2. Sept. 17. Mental illness as experience
Based on the movie and the book, we will discuss the experience of mental
illness and changing definitions of mental illness. The following questions
are central: To which extent Is mental illness defined by social, and to
which extent by medical categories; what determines changing social
reactions to mental illness; what is the healing effect (if any) of mental
hospitals; why has the mental hospital become so central in our approach to
the problem of mental illness?
Sheehan, Is there no place on earth for me?
Further reading:
There is a great number of autobiographical and literary accounts in which
mental illness figures prominently. To mention a few:
Susanna Kaysen, Girl, interrupted. New York: Vintage, 1993.
Hannah Greene, I never promised you a rose garden. New York: Holt, Rinehart,
& Winston, 1964.
Sylvia Plath, The Bell jar. New York: Harper & Row, 1971.
3. Sept. 24. The place of psychology and psychiatry in American society
A long time ago, it was said that madmen could roam free through society.
Physicians were not particularly concerned with their care; nor was their
any movement to promote their incarceration. Initially, the mad were locked
up together with the idle, vagrants, criminals, and other non-productive
individuals. Later, physicians singled out the mentally ill as being
properly cared for in an asylum under medical jurisdiction. This week we
will investigate these transitions.
Thomas Szasz, "The origins of psychiatry: The alienist as nanny for
troublesome adults," History of Psychiatry 6 (1995): 1-19.
Martin L. Gross, "The new seers." In: The psychological society. New York:
Touchstone, 1978.
Presentation:
Michel Foucault, Madness and civilization: A history of insanity in the age
of reason. Trans. Richard Howard. New York: Vintage, 1988, or. 1961. Chapter
on "The great confinement."
Further reading:
Gerald N. Grob, The mad among us: A history of the care of America's
mentally ill. Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1994.
David J. Rothman, The discovery of the asylum: Social order and disorder in
the new republic. Boston: Little Brown, 1971.
Andrew Scull, The most solitary of afflictions: Madness and society in
Britain, 1700-1900. New Haven: Yale Univ. Press, 1993.
Other works by Thomas Szasz: The myth of mental illness, revised ed. New
York: Harper & Row, 1974; The manufacture of madness. New York: Dell, 1971.
4. Oct. 1. Early treatment methods: Moral and somatic
Moral treatment, the first effective method of asylum management, had been
developed by Pinel and Tuke. Its roots were religious rather than medical.
In America, it coexisted with more somatically oriented therapeutic regimes.
During this week, we will investigate how moral treatment replaced brutal
and heroic forms of treatment; how the principles of moral treatment were
implemented; how it functioned in practice; and how the medical profession
adopted it for its own ends.
Andrew Scull, "The domestication of madness." In: Social order/mental
disorder. Berkeley: Univ. of California Press, 1989. Showalter, Female
malady, chapter 1.
Andrew Scull, "Moral treatment reconsidered." In: Social order/mental
disorder.
Video fragment: The madness of King George.
Presentation:
Foucault, Madness and civilization, chapter on "The birth of the asylum."
Benjamin Rush (1745-1813), Lectures on the mind. Chapter.
5. Oct. 8. Patients and families
With the establishment of large State Asylums, asylum care for the insane
became increasingly accepted in American society. More and more patients
were committed from the middle of the 19th century on. This led to problems
with overcrowding and asylum management.
Nancy Tomes, "A generous confidence: Thomas Story Kirkbride's philosophy of
asylum construction and management." In: Andrew Scull, ed., Madhouses, mad-
doctors, and madmen: The social history of psychiatry in the Victorian era.
Philadelphia: Univ. of Pennsylvania Press, 1981.
Gerald Grob, "Realities of asylum life." In: The mad among us.
Presentation:
Roy Porter, A social history of madness: The world through the eyes of the
insane. New York: Dutton, 1989. Chapter "John Perceval: Madness confined."
Dale Petersen, A mad people's history of madness. Pittsburgh: Univ. of
Pittsburgh Press, 1982, chapter.
First exercise: take home. Due Oct. 22.
6. Oct. 15 -- Fall break
7. Oct. 22. The female malady
Women have often been considered more susceptible to mental illness and a
wide variety of mental complaints. This week we will investigate a number of
analyses around this issue.
Showalter, Female malady, introduction, chapter 2 and 3. Barbara Ehrenreich
and Deirdre English, "Motherhood as pathology." In: For her own good: 150
years of the experts' advice to women. Garden City, NY: Anchor Books, 1978.
Presentation:
Mary Elene Wood, The writing on the wall: Women's autobiography and the
asylum. Urbana, Ill.: Univ. of Illinois Press, 1994. Chapter of choice.
Jeffrey L. Geller, and Maxine Harris, Women of the asylum: Voices from
behind the walls, 1840-1945. New York: Anchor, 1994. Chapter of choice.
Mary B. Pipher, Reviving Ophelia: Saving the selves of adolescent girls. New
York : Putnam, 1994.
Video: Asylum. With Gerald Grob.
Further reading:
Phyllis Chesler, Women and madness. Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1972.
8. Oct. 29. Therapeutic pessimism and neurasthenia
With the overcrowding of mental hospitals, possibilities for treatment and
therapeutics. Darwinian theories on degeneration became popular among
psychiatrists. At the same time, neurologists find occupations outside of
mental hospitals in the cure of the vague mental complaints of a more
affluent clientele.
Showalter, chapter 4, 5, 6: Psychiatric Darwinism.Ralph Harrington, "The
neuroses of the railway." History Today 44 (1994), 15-21.
Charles E. Rosenberg, "The place of George M. Beard in nineteenth century
psychiatry," Bulletin of the History of Medicine and Allied Sciences 36
(1962): 245-259.
Presentation:
Barbara Sicherman, "The uses of a diagnosis: Doctors, patients, and
neurasthenia." Journal of the History of Medicine and Allied Sciences 32
(1977): 33-54.
Max Nordau, Degeneration. New York: Appleton, 1905, chapter 1:
"Fin-de-siècle."
Charlotte Perkins Gilman, "The Yellow wallpaper," in: The Charlotte Perkins
Gilman reader, ed. Ann J. Lane. New York: Pantheon, 1980.
Bonnie Ellen Blustein, "'A hollow square of psychological science': American
neurologists and psychiatrists in conflict." In: Scull, Madhouses,
mad-doctors, and madmen.
Further reading:
Francis G. Gosling, Before Freud: Neurasthenia and the American medical
community, 1870-1910. Urbana, Ill: Univ. of Illinois Press, 1987.
Janet Oppenheim, "Shattered nerves": Doctors, patients, and depression in
Victorian England. New York: Oxford Univ. Press, 1991.
9. Nov. 5. Freud in America, or, psychiatry as a cure for social ills
Few historians dispute that the United States was the country were
psychoanalysis became the most popular and successful. There is, however,
less agreement about the nature of psychoanalysis-American-style: for some,
it represents the ultimate banalization and commercialization of its roots.
For others, American psychoanalysts developed the theory to its natural
consequences.
Sandor Gifford, "The American reception of psychoanalysis," in 1915, the
cultural moment: The new politics, the new woman, the new psychology, the
new art, and the new theater in America, eds. Adele Heller and Lois Rudnick.
New Brunswick: Rutgers Univ. Press, 1991.
Nathan G. Hale, "From Berggasse XIX to Central Park West: The
Americanization of psychoanalysis, 1919-1940," Journal of the History of the
Behavioral Sciences 14 (1978): 299-315.
Fred Matthews, "The Americanization of Sigmund Freud: Adaptations of
psychoanalysis before 1917," Journal of American Studies 1 (1967): 39-62.
Presentations:
Showalter, chapter 8: "Women and psychiatric modernism."
Mabel Dodge Luhan, Movers and shakers. Albuquerque, NM: Univ. of New Mexico
Press, 1985, or. 1964. Chapter 15: "Dr. Jelliffe."
Lewellys F. Barker, Principles of mental hygiene applied to the management
of children predisposed to nervousness. New York: National Committee for
Mental Hygiene, 1912.
George K. Pratt, "Wives who help their husbands fail," and "Day-dreamers and
bluffers." In: Why men fail, ed. Morris Fishbein and William A. White. New
York: Century, 1928.
"The nervous breakdown," Series of articles in Fortune Magazine, 1935.
10. Nov. 12. Trauma and recovery: The war experience
The second World War created a new awareness of the influence of severe
psychological stress on mental health. At the current time, the debate has
been revived around the new diagnosis of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder
(PTSD) which is still controversial.
Showalter, chapter 7: Male hysteria
Ellen Herman, "Nervous in the service." In: The romance of American
psychology: Political culture in the age of experts. Berkeley: Univ. of
California Press, 1995.
Hans Pols, "'Their mothers' sons': War neuroses, maladjusted veterans, and
overprotective mothers." Manuscript.
Susan M. Hartmann, "Prescriptions for Penelope: Literature on women's
obligations to returning World War II veterans." Women's Studies 5 (1978):
223-229.
Video: Let There Be Light (John Huston, 1948), about the treatment of war
neuroses.
Presentation:
The schizophrenogenic mother. Readings from Edward A. Strecker, Their
mothers' sons (1946) and Frieda Fromm-Reichmann on the role of the mother in
the family.
Vietnam veterans and PTSD. Wilbur J. Scott, "PTSD in DSM- III: A case in the
politics of diagnosis and disease." Social Problems 37 (1990)3: 294-310.
Allan Young, The harmony of illusions: Inventing post- traumatic stress
disorder. Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1995.
Spock and advice to mothers. Nancy Pottishman Weiss, "Mother, the invention
of necessity: Dr. Benjamin Spock's Care for Infant and Child." In Growing Up
in America: Children in Historical Perspective, edited by N. Ray Hiner and
Joseph M. Hawes.
Second exercise: take home. Discussing "The boy who could not cry," a
neo-Freudian radio-broadcast from 1947. Due Nov. 21.
11. Nov. 19. Somatic treatment old and new: From lobotomy to prozac
Prozac is, at this moment, America's favorite psychoactive drug. Its advent
coincides with a somatic turn in psychiatric thinking. For some, prozac is a
cure-all; for others mere opium for a dissatisfied people. Patients force
their physicians to prescribe the drug for them while researchers find ever
more applications.
Elliot S. Valenstein, "The treatment of mental illness: Organic vs.
functional approaches." In: Great and desperate cures: The rise and decline
of psychosurgery and other radical treatments for mental illness. New York:
Basic Books, 1986.
Peter D. Kramer, Listening to prozac: A psychiatrist explores antidepressant
drugs and the remaking of the self. New York: Penguin, 1993, first and last
chapter.
Peter R. Breggin and Ginger Ross Breggin, Talking back to prozac: What
doctors aren't telling you about today's most controversial drug. New York:
St. Martin's Press, 1994.
Video: Moving back into the light. Propaganda video paid for by Eli Lylli,
the makers of Prozac.
Presentation:
Valenstein, "Bizarre illnesses, bizarre treatment," and "'Anything that
holds out hope should be tried.'" Same source.
Elizabeth Wurtzel, Prozac nation: Young and depressed in America. New York:
Riverhead, 1994.
Attention Deficit Disorder: Edward M. Hallowell and John J. Ratey, Driven to
distraction (New York: Pantheon, 1994).
12. Nov. 26. Trauma, repressed/false memories, and Multiple Personality
Disorder
The debate regarding the recovery of repressed memories with the aid of
hypnosis or intensive psychotherapy is far from over. Counter-claims about
manipulative psychotherapists and false memories are abound. This week we
will have a closer look at a number of recent developments in this debate.
Judith Lewis Herman, Trauma and recovery: The aftermath of violence, from
domestic abuse to political terror. New York: Basic Books, 1992.
Introduction, and "A forgotten history."
Ian Hacking, Rewriting the soul: Multiple personality and the sciences of
memory. Princeton: Princeton Univ. Press, 1995. Chapter 1, "Is it real?"
Chapter 2, "What is it like?"
Elizabeth Loftus and Katherine Ketcham, Witness for the defense: The
accused, the eyewitness, and the expert who puts memory on trial. New York:
St. Martin's Press, 1991.
Video: The Three Faces of Eve (Nunnally Johnson, 1957).
Presentation:
People vs. Franklin case. See: Lenore Terr, Unchained memories: True stories
of traumatic memories, lost and found. New York: Basic, 1994, chapter 2.
Alien abduction. John E. Mack, Abduction: Human encounters with aliens. New
York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1994, and articles.
Lawrence Wright, Remembering Satan. New York: Knopf, 1994.
Propaganda material from the False Memory Foundation.
13. Dec. 3. The psychologization/psychiatrization of American society (?)
Several cultural critics have argued that American society has become
atomized and individualized--a process started by the forces of capitalism
but strongly aided by the psychological professions. As a consequence, ties
to the community and social cohesion have been lost; a predicament for which
psychotherapy
gle...@webtv.net
my only regret is that i didn't think of it first!
Glenn
jake
"I Love Paxil" <deeps...@aol.comsuckthis> wrote in message
> << you have it ass backwards
>
> >the medical model serves to depoliticize and marginalize social deviance
>
>
> In plain English, WTF does that mean? Thats PURE psychobabble bullshit
"jake"
It means once diagnosed anything the patient says is invalidated
and treated as the meaningless symptoms of an hypothetical underlying
disorder..
you should know you attempt to do it all the time with folk who disagree
with you!
fortunately you have no social power..
> The medical model is the only respect the mentally ill have. Otherwise,
we're
> just "crazy" and its "all in our heads."
the medical models opposition to that position is more apparent than real..
that is precisely what the model does ..turns social problems and conflicts
affecting millions globally
into personal problems to be cured by drugging...
>
> What you just spouted is a perfect example of why Ive been irritated with
you
> ever since you first showed up here three years ago.
Oh NO!
I think I am going to cry..
Youre obsessed and
> interested in this...what was it? Psychiatric sociology or some such
nonsense
> as that?
you would do well to study the sociology of psychiatry if you want a hope in
hell of doing the advocacy
you clain to wish to pursue..
Different social classes and situations are not united by the common factor
of ingesting an SSRI
You preach
I preach nothing...
facts are facts..however unpalateable to you..
>bullshit...
nobody asked you what was keeping your ears apart ..now did they?
>
> There is only one thing which might could help you at this stage,
> http://www.zyprexa.com
I have given up diabetes and obesity for Lent I am afraid..
jake
"Fear Of a Paxil Planet" <deeps...@aol.comsuckthis> wrote in message
news:20040330002932...@mb-m10.aol.com...
> << Subject: Re: Put Paxil in the USA water supply
> Date: Tue, Mar 30, 2004 12:50 AM
> Message-id: <c4au87$a5p$0...@pita.alt.net>
>
>
>
> >It means once diagnosed anything the patient says is invalidated
> and treated as the meaningless symptoms of an hypothetical underlying
> disorder..
> you should know you attempt to do it all the time with folk who disagree
> with you!
>
>
> I havent experienced that with my psychiatrists. In fact its more the
> opposite...they are scared of being sued. They listen to me and if I have
a
> complaint, it gets dealt with.
well what a brave strong important person you must be..!!
lesser mortals are not so fortunate and suffer badly without representation
in back wards..especially
if they ae homeless or orphans and others shunted fron childrens
institutions
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > The medical model is the only respect the mentally ill have. Otherwise,
> we're
> > just "crazy" and its "all in our heads."
>
> >the medical models opposition to that position is more apparent than
real..
> that is precisely what the model does ..turns social problems and
conflicts
> affecting millions globally
> into personal problems to be cured by drugging...
>
> -------------------------------------------------
>
> Well thank you for calling my clinical depression and misery Ive
experienced
Get over yourself...you are by no means unique and are in mo way superior to
any other
depressed person..
> a mere "social problem."
nothing mere about it..
hundreds of thousands of people globally all suffering ..
but dealt with as individuals without the realization that its a common
problem..
This shows your true distorted perception...what Ive
> been pointing out to you for what...three years now?
>
> How else do you propose to treat serious mental illnesses such as bipolar
> disorder, major depression, schizophrenia, etc? TALK THERAPY? Chicken
soup?
> Holding hands? LOL HAHAHAHA!
Bray as loud as you want you jackass..
those defined as bipolar...for example.. have often been the subject of
sexual and physical abuse..
something swept under the carpet and totally missing in your half-baked
simplistic view of a genetic brain disorder to be drugged and shocked..
to eliminate the root causes of mental distress necessitates a political
solution and a massive reallocation of resources ..
not an expansion of the customer base and profits of multinational drug
conglomerates..
>
Mental illness has little to do with social class...
this must be one of the most absurd and ridiculous things you have ever
said..
Do you know ANYTHING about the epidemology of mental illness hospital
admissions and drug prescriptions at all?
it would appear not..
it strikes
> people across class lines. Poor people get it...rich people get it. Middle
> class people get it.
people are diagnosed as mentally ill ..
they do not "catch it"
those given physical treatments are predominantly the poor..
>
> Class can have a lot to do with how well its treated, it can affect the
quality
> of the treatment you get. Class can affect things like one's ability to
hire a
> good attorney if a psychiatrist needs to be sued for incompetence and
things
> like that. But overall the treatments are the same for both poor and
> rich...although the rich do have better access to ECT now, at least in the
USA.
the bulkof barbaric electroshocks are given to the poor ..the black ..the
elderly and females..
the facts are quite plain..
> >I preach nothing...
> facts are facts..however unpalateable to you..
>
> You are distorted, but dont realize it.
It seems Fritz Redlich lived and died in vain as far as you are concerned
then..
a pity for you seeing as how he agreed with much of what you critique
psychiatry for.and actually altered Yale in the direction you wish...
As the Medical School dean from 1967 to 1972, Redlich established a new
Department of Molecular Biophysics and Biochemistry and a new medical
education program
Born to Ludwig and Emma Redlich in 1910 in Vienna, Austria, Redlich studied
psychology and medicine at the University of Vienna, earning his medical
degree in 1935. He continued his education with an internship and residency
training in neuropsychiatry until 1938, when Redlich immigrated to the
United States with his wife, Elsa.
Redlich had a great love for America ever since he studied as an exchange
student at Wittenberg College of Ohio, from 1930 to 1931. He later served
for a year during World War II in the U.S. Army Medical Service.
The co-author of six books and nearly 100 scientific articles, Redlich was
elected a member of the National Academy of Sciences, Institute of Medicine,
and of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, receiving Distinguished
Service Awards from both the American College of Psychiatrists and the
American Psychiatric Association.
In one of his most distinguished books, Social Class and Mental Illness,
written with Yale sociologist August Hollingshead, Redlich demonstrated that
lower-class patients often received inferior forms of psychiatric treatment.
Redlich's work on this book helped give shape to the subdiscipline of social
psychiatry and also led to the creation of the Yale-Connecticut Mental
Health Center, which Redlich co-founded and first directed.
Another renowned book of Redlich's is Hitler: Diagnosis of a Destructive
Prophet, which considers the possibility that Hitler may have suffered from
a mental disease, though Redlich ultimately concludes that he was most
likely not severely mentally ill.
Published Wednesday, January 21, 2004
Former Med. School Dean Redlich, 93, passes away
BY SUSIE POPPICK
Contributing Reporter
http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=24576
Frederick (Fritz) Redlich,Êa former dean of the Yale School of Medicine,
died of congestive heart failure on Jan. 1 in the Yale-New Haven Hospital.
He was 93.
Redlich, who joined the University faculty in 1942, helped to revive a
leaderless department of psychiatry by encouraging a more multidisciplinary
approach to the field. For the 17 years after Redlich's promotion to
professor and chairman in 1950, the Psychiatry Department prospered, gaining
national regard under his leadership.
As the Medical School dean from 1967 to 1972, Redlich established a new
Department of Molecular Biophysics and Biochemistry and a new medical
education program. He left Yale in 1977 to teach at the University of
California, Los Angeles until 1982, and he returned to New Haven in 1999.
"Even after his retirement, Fritz maintained close ties with the Yale
Department of Psychiatry. When he returned to the New Haven area, I was
privileged enough to obtain his wise counsel on issues vital to the current
department," said Benjamin S. Bunney, the Medical School's current chairman
of psychiatry. "One of the things I admired most about him was his ability
to both invent and carry out his work's vision."
Redlich's son Peter Redlich said his father had always been deeply invested
in his work at the University.
"Yale was my father's greatest love during most of his lifetime," Redlich
said.
Born to Ludwig and Emma Redlich in 1910 in Vienna, Austria, Redlich studied
psychology and medicine at the University of Vienna, earning his medical
degree in 1935. He continued his education with an internship and residency
training in neuropsychiatry until 1938, when Redlich immigrated to the
United States with his wife, Elsa.
Redlich had a great love for America ever since he studied as an exchange
student at Wittenberg College of Ohio, from 1930 to 1931. He later served
for a year during World War II in the U.S. Army Medical Service.
The co-author of six books and nearly 100 scientific articles, Redlich was
elected a member of the National Academy of Sciences, Institute of Medicine,
and of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, receiving Distinguished
Service Awards from both the American College of Psychiatrists and the
American Psychiatric Association.
In one of his most distinguished books, Social Class and Mental Illness,
written with Yale sociologist August Hollingshead, Redlich demonstrated that
lower-class patients often received inferior forms of psychiatric treatment.
Redlich's work on this book helped give shape to the subdiscipline of social
psychiatry and also led to the creation of the Yale-Connecticut Mental
Health Center, which Redlich co-founded and first directed.
Another renowned book of Redlich's is Hitler: Diagnosis of a Destructive
Prophet, which considers the possibility that Hitler may have suffered from
a mental disease, though Redlich ultimately concludes that he was most
likely not severely mentally ill.
To his close friend and colleague, George F. Mahl, Redlich was more than a
writer, scientist and scholar. Mahl said Redlich also loved hiking, skiing
and sailing and had a great appreciation for music, art, literature and
close friendship.
"He was not all work. He was a courageous and daring man. Those traits
characterized everything he did," said Mahl. "I met Fritz in 1947 as an
advanced graduate student and became a member of his department in 1948. He
and I remained close friends all the way until his death."
Mahl said it cannot be overemphasized how novel and important Redlich's
extension of psychiatry as a multidisciplinary field proved to be.
Redlich is survived by his wife of 49 years, Herta Glaz, an internationally
celebrated opera singer; his son, Peter; and a grandson.
Contrarian
> Paxil should be automatically placed in the US water supply. Doing so would
> ease human suffering in this country, create a less hostile country and
> generally help many people. It would prevent major depressive episodes from
> developing in many cases. It would eliminate the need for psychiatry, as the
> drug would already be in everyone's system.
Nah, but there's a good argument for making it an OTC Rx.
Velvet Elvis
>
> "Fear Of a Paxil Planet" <deeps...@aol.comsuckthis> wrote in message
> news:20040330002932...@mb-m10.aol.com...
>> << Subject: Re: Put Paxil in the USA water supply From: "jake"
>> inv...@invalid.com
>> Date: Tue, Mar 30, 2004 12:50 AM
>> Message-id: <c4au87$a5p$0...@pita.alt.net>
>>
>>
>>
>> >It means once diagnosed anything the patient says is invalidated
>> and treated as the meaningless symptoms of an hypothetical underlying
>> disorder..
>> you should know you attempt to do it all the time with folk who disagree
>> with you!
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------
>>
>> I havent experienced that with my psychiatrists. In fact its more the
>> opposite...they are scared of being sued. They listen to me and if I
>> have
> a
>> complaint, it gets dealt with.
>
> well what a brave strong important person you must be..!!
>
> lesser mortals are not so fortunate and suffer badly without
> representation in back wards..especially
> if they ae homeless or orphans and others shunted fron childrens
> institutions
I've had the same experience with pdocs as Eric. If they wouldn't do as
I asked, I fired them. Mental health is no different than any other
service. The customer is always right.
I do agree that there are civil/human rights abuses when it comes to the
forced hospitalization of children and the indigent homeless. Such cases
make up a small percentage of over patients in the mental health care
system.
Check out www.brainplace.com. Bi-polar mood disorder and other
psychiatric disorder do manifest themselves physically as show in SPECT
and PET scans. Such scans also show physiological changes in neuroanatomy
that accompanies treatment with psychiatric medication. Talk therapy, if
it's effective, also produces physical changes in the brain. Why? Because
all mental states have congruent physical states. Both medication and
talk therapy treat the physical condition which results in the symptoms of
a psychiatric condition. By the time a person is suffering from a
psychiatric disorder, the root cause, be it nature or nurture is
irrelevant. All that matters is if a treatment is effective in
alleviating symptoms. One more time. For every mental state there is a
corresponding physical state in the brain. For every physical state of
the brain there is a corresponding mental state. It's two sides of the
same coin.
> to eliminate the root causes of mental distress necessitates a political
> solution and a massive reallocation of resources ..
>
> not an expansion of the customer base and profits of multinational drug
> conglomerates..
>
>
> this must be one of the most absurd and ridiculous things you have ever
> said..
> Do you know ANYTHING about the epidemology of mental illness hospital
> admissions and drug prescriptions at all? it would appear not..
>
>
>
> people are diagnosed as mentally ill ..
>
> they do not "catch it"
>
> those given physical treatments are predominantly the poor..
I'd like to see evidence of this. I'd think that it's the uninsured who
are least likely to get treated. Physical treatments are mental
treatments and mental treatments are physical treatments, btw.
> the bulkof barbaric electroshocks are given to the poor ..the black ..the
> elderly and females..
Forced ECT is illegal in most states. As it's an expensive procedure
requiring anesthesia and multiple treatments, I really doubt that many
people without health insurance are able to pay for it.
I really get the picture you're looking at statistics that are 30-40 years
out of date.
> the facts are quite plain..
>> >I preach nothing...
>> facts are facts..however unpalateable to you..
>>
>> You are distorted, but dont realize it.
>
> It seems Fritz Redlich lived and died in vain as far as you are concerned
> then..
Psychiatry of 25-40 years ago has little in common with psychiatry as it
is practiced today. Thirty years ago university psychology departments
were commonly merged with philosophy departments. Psychologists did not
generally treat patients at all. Psychiatrists, at that time, were the
main providers of talk therapy. Since that time, psychology has become an
applied field, and psychiatry has moved great distances into the realm of
neurology.
Advances in the science of the mind, thanks in large part to advances in
nuclear medicine, have been so vast and sweeping, that Redlich's work is
little more than an historical footnote today. As an historian of
philosophy, I don't mean to downplay his contributions to the evolution of
the science of the mind. To cite him as empirical evidence in a critique
of the contemporary sociology of mental illness is a little bit like
citing Nostradamus. It does zilch to support your argument.
If you really want to make an argument regarding the relation between
class and mental health, might I suggest you start with Marx? Take his
critiques of religion in The Holy Family and The German Ideology and
substitute psychology for religion and 19th century German Idealism.
While I would still disagree with it, you might be able to come up with an
argument that would at least hold water by rooting it in the history of
class struggle. Here are links to translations of the the two pieces I
mention:
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/german-ideology/index.htm
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/holy-family/
Major Zoloft
U.S. health care system for simply providing drugs to the poor without
any therapy or rigorous follow-up. It's not surprising that it is
handled in this manner in a free enterprise system. I'm not being
critical of it. Just like everything else here, money (or good
insurance) talks.
Fear Of a Paxil Planet wrote:
> << people across class lines. Poor people get it...rich people get it. Middle
>
>>class people get it.
>
>
> people are diagnosed as mentally ill ..
>
> they do not "catch it"
>
> those given physical treatments are predominantly the poor..
> >>
>
> -------------------------------------------------
>
> Man, I am serious here. You need professional help. Im not saying that to put
> you down but I really believe your not right. To make a statement like the
> above is total crap. The rich and middle class get mental illnesses such as
> schizophrenia, bipolar and major depression just like poor people get it. And
> the rich and middle class are medicated just like the poor. They are prescribed
> the same drugs...thru private practice psychiatry here in the states. Poor
> oftentimes must use the public system utilizing medicaid/medicare.
>
> But to make a statement that the poor are medicated or given "physical"
> treatments and rich people are not medicated...thats PURE BULL. It shows your
> thinking process and your thinking process is not good. Im really not saying
> that to bash you this time...Im really serious Bob.
>
> Here in America for example, look at all the movie stars and celebrities who
> have discussed publicly their experiences with mental illness. Many have
> discussed their experiences with psychiatry meds. A few with ECT. They surely
> are not poor. Many many medical doctors and attorneys here in the states suffer
> from "burnout" and subsequent development of mental illness and many take
> medications. I personally know of a medical doctor and several other medical
> professionals who have suffered from mental illness and primarily rely upon the
> "physical" treatments.
>
> You behave in this way Bob because you are personally afraid of this stuff
> happening to you I believe. You really have distorted thinking to make
> statements like that and be serious about it. I feel sorry for you.
>
> Eric
jake
"Fear Of a Paxil Planet" <deeps...@aol.comsuckthis> wrote in message
> << people across class lines. Poor people get it...rich people get it.
Middle
> > class people get it.
>
> people are diagnosed as mentally ill ..
>
> they do not "catch it"
>
> those given physical treatments are predominantly the poor..
> >>
>
>
> Man, I am serious here.
oh you are a serious case all right..
>You need professional help.
yes
perhaps I am crazy to think it possible to have an inttelligent rational
dialogue with you..as most people suggest..
Im not saying that to put
> you down but I really believe your not right. To make a statement like the
> above is total crap.
Eric it is a well established fact that since the professionalization of
psychiatry the rich get "moral treatments"
and the poor "physical treatments"
>The rich and middle class get mental illnesses such as
> schizophrenia, bipolar and major depression just like poor people get it.
there are well established social class differences in diagnosis and
treatment..
not that I expect this to make any difference to your bizarre
weltanschaung..
jake
"Velvet Elvis" <gam...@REMOVEsofthome.THISnet> wrote in message
you delude yourself...
that mental illness is considered to rob people of respomsibility for their
actions
and is used as an instrument of social control..
makes it ENTIRELY different
The customer is always right.
a psychotic "customer" is never right.
>
> I do agree that there are civil/human rights abuses when it comes to the
> forced hospitalization of children and the indigent homeless. Such cases
> make up a small percentage of over patients in the mental health care
> system.
care to cite some stats on this "small percentage"?
as far as the homeless go their is an enormously strong correlation between
mewntal illness and homelessness..
I am aware of the advances in neo-phrenology..
Such scans also show physiological changes in neuroanatomy
> that accompanies treatment with psychiatric medication.
who knows what such things show other than a snapshot in time
of a drugged brain taken through a very distorted prism..
you confuse description with explanation..
PET scans ..EEGs etc are simply suggestive pics that need interpretaion..
Talk therapy, if
> it's effective, also produces physical changes in the brain.
Why? Because
> all mental states have congruent physical states.
all human activities including watching soap operas have "congruent physical
states..
Hence the absurdity of Erics claims for somatic or genetic determinism
Both medication and
> talk therapy treat the physical condition which results in the symptoms of
> a psychiatric condition. By the time a person is suffering from a
> psychiatric disorder, the root cause, be it nature or nurture is
> irrelevant.
All that matters is if a treatment is effective in
> alleviating symptoms.
this kind of makeshift threadbare pragnatic approach.. theory is what makes
much psychiatric "theory" a laughing stock.
It matters very much ..especially when the diagnosers and treaters also have
total control over the definition of
successful "aleviation " of "symptoms THEY construe as clinically
abnormal..
One more time. For every mental state there is a
> corresponding physical state in the brain. For every physical state of
> the brain there is a corresponding mental state. It's two sides of the
> same coin.
>
>
> > to eliminate the root causes of mental distress necessitates a political
> > solution and a massive reallocation of resources ..
> >
> > not an expansion of the customer base and profits of multinational drug
> > conglomerates..
> >
>
> >
> > this must be one of the most absurd and ridiculous things you have ever
> > said..
> > Do you know ANYTHING about the epidemology of mental illness hospital
> > admissions and drug prescriptions at all? it would appear not..
> >
> >
> >
>
> > people are diagnosed as mentally ill ..
> >
> > they do not "catch it"
> >
> > those given physical treatments are predominantly the poor..
>
> I'd like to see evidence of this. I'd think that it's the uninsured who
> are least likely to get treated. Physical treatments are mental
> treatments and mental treatments are physical treatments, btw.
chemotherapy anf electroshock are etirely different to psychotherapy..
>
>
>
> > the bulkof barbaric electroshocks are given to the poor ..the black
..the
> > elderly and females..
>
> Forced ECT is illegal in most states.
you might be very suprised to find that forced treatments up to and
including Electroshock
are NOT illegal at all in various circumstances..
As it's an expensive procedure
> requiring anesthesia and multiple treatments, I really doubt that many
> people without health insurance are able to pay for it.
you really are ethnocentric arent you?
do you imagine the US system is of global relevance?
>
> I really get the picture you're looking at statistics that are 30-40 years
> out of date.
>
> > the facts are quite plain..
> >> >I preach nothing...
> >> facts are facts..however unpalateable to you..
> >>
> >> You are distorted, but dont realize it.
> >
> > It seems Fritz Redlich lived and died in vain as far as you are
concerned
> > then..
>
> Psychiatry of 25-40 years ago has little in common with psychiatry as it
> is practiced today.
On the contrary ...
Dorniers tells us that "the history of psychiatry is a history of constantly
changing rationalizations
for relatively unchanging practices..
Thirty years ago university psychology departments
> were commonly merged with philosophy departments. Psychologists did not
> generally treat patients at all. Psychiatrists, at that time, were the
> main providers of talk therapy. Since that time, psychology has become an
> applied field, and psychiatry has moved great distances into the realm of
> neurology.
>
> Advances in the science of the mind, thanks in large part to advances in
> nuclear medicine, have been so vast and sweeping, that Redlich's work is
> little more than an historical footnote today.
social class differences
as a relevant today as they have ever been..
As an historian of
> philosophy, I don't mean to downplay his contributions to the evolution of
> the science of the mind. To cite him as empirical evidence in a critique
> of the contemporary sociology of mental illness
there is no critique of the sociology of psychiatry involved here..
on the contrary..Marxist scholars such as Scull highlight the role of
psychiatry in masking social class differences..
is a little bit like
> citing Nostradamus. It does zilch to support your argument.
you are absurd..
LOL..
you have the audacity to criticize empirical studies of social class
differences in diagnosis whist invoking Marx??
Take his
> critiques of religion in The Holy Family and The German Ideology and
> substitute psychology for religion and 19th century German Idealism.
> While I would still disagree with it, you might be able to come up with an
> argument that would at least hold water by rooting it in the history of
> class struggle. Here are links to translations of the the two pieces I
> mention:
>
> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/german-ideology/index.htm
> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/holy-family/
Your assumption I am unfamiliar with these works is totally unwarranted..
I would suggest you famiarize yourself with more contempory marxist
critiques of the role of psychiatry..
>
>
jake
"Fear Of a Paxil Planet" <deeps...@aol.comsuckthis> wrote in message
> <<
> Nah, but there's a good argument for making it an OTC Rx.
>
> >>
>
could
> buy my own meds OTC and skip the psychiatry crap! How wonderful!
a drug addicts dream eh Eric?
Velvet Elvis
> you have it ass backwards
>
> the medical model serves to depoliticize and marginalize social deviance
>
> no self-respecting marxist would be obsessed with a fringe cult..they look
> to the material conditions of existence for explanations
>
> try looking at a marxist theorist and historian of mentall illmess like
> Andrew Scull...you might not be so led astray by right wing reactionary
> crackpots..
>
> or ... Redlich, Social Class and Mental Illness
I am sympathetic to such arguments, but a strong case couched in the
Marxist tradition can also be made that the individual does not have the
right to refuse medical treatment, if such treatment is in the best
interest of society as a whole. Individual liberties are generally not as
important in a communitarian society as in a liberal one. As a happy
worker is clearly going to be more effective than a depressed one. I
would not personally advocate this position, it's a bit too Brave New
World for me.
The psychiatric model of mental illness is not incompatible with
historical materialism. In deed, I'm inclined to see mental illness AS a
material condition.
I've not read Scull, but I will check him out when I get a chance. I'd
probably be more sympathetic to his argument than towards the Foucault
derived stuff that most anti-psychiatry intellectuals subscribe to.
In my personal experience as a radical and sometimes revolutionary,
anti-depressants have made it much easier to get out of bed and be
politically active. Without them I'm much more fatalistic and inclined to
stay in bed rather than go out in the world and act.
I am not at all unsympathetic to social construction arguments. Half the
DSM is, IMHO, socially constructed bullshit. In specific, personality
disorders.
I'm a big fan of Ian Hacking, and would give my left nut to
study under him in grad school. In _The_Taming_of_Chance_, he argues
against the Durkheimian statistical models upon which contemporary
sociology and psychology are based. Check it out:
In _Rewriting_the_Soul_ he basically disproves the existence of multiple
personality disorder. It's awesome. Check it out:
I've not read this one yet, but want to. I have a hunch you'll want to as
well:
In general, I'm inclined to embrace the medical view of mental illness,
but totally reject the findings of psychologists and sociologists due to
inherent flaws in methodology. That's basically where Hacking comes from
in most of his work. It's the psychologists who tell us that our problems
are often rooted in our own experience, rather than some greater material
condition. It's the psychologists and not the psychiatrists who are
responsibly for the depoliticizing and marginalization of individuals with
mental illness. This is the area in which I want to focus in my graduate
studies.
Anyway. If you check out Hacking, I'll check out Scull.
Velvet Elvis
> << you have it ass backwards
>
>>the medical model serves to depoliticize and marginalize social deviance
>
> ------------------------------------------------
>
> In plain English, WTF does that mean? Thats PURE psychobabble bullshit
> "jake." The medical model is the only respect the mentally ill have.
> Otherwise, we're just "crazy" and its "all in our heads."
Sorry Eric. Not only does what he said make sense, it's a fairly common
argument. I disagree with him, but he knows what he's talking about.
Velvet Elvis
> "Velvet Elvis" <gam...@REMOVEsofthome.THISnet> wrote in message
>> > "Fear Of a Paxil Planet" <deeps...@aol.comsuckthis> wrote in
>> >> I havent experienced that with my psychiatrists. In fact its more the
>> >> opposite...they are scared of being sued. They listen to me and if I
>> >> have
>> > a
>> >> complaint, it gets dealt with.
>> >
>> > well what a brave strong important person you must be..!!
>> >
>> > lesser mortals are not so fortunate and suffer badly without
>> > representation in back wards..especially if they ae homeless or
>> > orphans and others shunted fron childrens institutions
>>
>> I've had the same experience with pdocs as Eric. If they wouldn't do as
>> I asked, I fired them. Mental health is no different than any other
>> service.
>
> you delude yourself...
> that mental illness is considered to rob people of respomsibility for
> their actions
> and is used as an instrument of social control.. makes it ENTIRELY
> different
I disagree, kinda. ADD makes me very impulsive sometimes. Sometimes I do
things that I strongly regret later and have no idea why I did them at the
time. While I do not consider the consequences of these actions to be my
fault per se, they are still my responsibility. I'm inclined to agree
with Sartre in that it's our responsibility for ourselves and others that
makes us human.
> The customer is always right.
>
> a psychotic "customer" is never right.
>>
>> I do agree that there are civil/human rights abuses when it comes to
>> the forced hospitalization of children and the indigent homeless. Such
>> cases make up a small percentage of over patients in the mental health
>> care system.
>
> care to cite some stats on this "small percentage"? as far as the
> homeless go their is an enormously strong correlation between mewntal
> illness and homelessness..
1. A large number of the mentaly ill are homeless. FALSE
2. A large number of the homeless are mentaly ill. TRUE
If you insist, I can dig up some statistics for you, but as I stated in
another post, I don't give much credence to statistics.
It's the reduction and/or elimination of state funded services and
treatment for the mentally ill that has resulted in a large number of
mentally ill homeless people. The fact that they were homeless in no way
made them mentally ill. Well. I'm sure it causes some depression, but
it's inadequate services for individuals with severe psychotic disorders
such as schizophrenia that has resulted in so man mentally ill homeless.
Surely you're not going to argue that schizophrenia is a social
construction rooted in class differences? I'm not as well versed on this
as I should be, so I can't give details without doing research which I
don't have time to do, but it's basically common knowledge that the
swelling number of the homeless mentally ill is the direct result of the
reduced funding for state sponsored residential treatment facilities.
Why is it phrenology? What degree of proof would be required to convince
you that the findings of contemporary science of the mind are valid?
> Such scans also show physiological changes in neuroanatomy
>> that accompanies treatment with psychiatric medication.
>
>
> who knows what such things show other than a snapshot in time of a
> drugged brain taken through a very distorted prism..
>
> you confuse description with explanation..
>
> PET scans ..EEGs etc are simply suggestive pics that need
> interpretaion..
Fair enough. There's still such a thing as valid interpretations and
invalid interpretations. As a pragmatist, I'm inclined to say that the
interpretation which results in an understanding of the human mind which
in turn allows the suffering of an individual to be reduced is valid.
> Talk therapy, if
>> it's effective, also produces physical changes in the brain.
> Why? Because
>> all mental states have congruent physical states.
>
> all human activities including watching soap operas have "congruent
> physical states..
yes
> Hence the absurdity of Erics claims for somatic or genetic determinism
Not really. One can have a genetic condition which leads to a specific
physical state which is mirrored in a mental state.
> Both medication and
>> talk therapy treat the physical condition which results in the symptoms
>> of a psychiatric condition. By the time a person is suffering from a
>> psychiatric disorder, the root cause, be it nature or nurture is
>> irrelevant.
>
>
> All that matters is if a treatment is effective in
>> alleviating symptoms.
>
> this kind of makeshift threadbare pragnatic approach.. theory is what
> makes much psychiatric "theory" a laughing stock.
Pragmatism is a hallmark of American philosophy of science. Don't make me
break out William James on your ass.
Sometimes it's easier to change a mental state by changing its
corresponding physical state. Sometimes it's easier to change a mental
state directly. When such is done, however, there are still changes to
the corresponding physical state. Is it determinism if I change my mental
state by changing my physical state? The physical state does determine
the mental state, and vice versa.
> It matters very much ..especially when the diagnosers and treaters also
> have total control over the definition of successful "aleviation " of
> "symptoms THEY construe as clinically abnormal..
So don't give them that control. I never have. Why not encourage people
to be savvy consumers rather than telling them to reject the offered
product outright?
> One more time. For every mental state there is a
>> corresponding physical state in the brain. For every physical state of
>> the brain there is a corresponding mental state. It's two sides of the
>> same coin.
>>
>>
>> > to eliminate the root causes of mental distress necessitates a
>> > political solution and a massive reallocation of resources ..
>> >
>> > not an expansion of the customer base and profits of multinational
>> > drug conglomerates..
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > this must be one of the most absurd and ridiculous things you have
>> > ever said..
>> > Do you know ANYTHING about the epidemology of mental illness hospital
>> > admissions and drug prescriptions at all? it would appear not..
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > people are diagnosed as mentally ill ..
>> >
>> > they do not "catch it"
>> >
>> > those given physical treatments are predominantly the poor..
>>
>> I'd like to see evidence of this. I'd think that it's the uninsured
>> who are least likely to get treated. Physical treatments are mental
>> treatments and mental treatments are physical treatments, btw.
>
> chemotherapy anf electroshock are etirely different to psychotherapy..
How? Cognitive behavioral therapy is psychic surgery. Medications are
the anesthetic.
>> > the bulkof barbaric electroshocks are given to the poor ..the black
> ..the
>> > elderly and females..
>>
>> Forced ECT is illegal in most states.
>
> you might be very suprised to find that forced treatments up to and
> including Electroshock
> are NOT illegal at all in various circumstances..
>
>
>
> As it's an expensive procedure
>> requiring anesthesia and multiple treatments, I really doubt that many
>> people without health insurance are able to pay for it.
>
>
> you really are ethnocentric arent you? do you imagine the US system is
> of global relevance?
I think in some senses we are more progressive than the rest of the world.
Is it likely that Romanian mental patiants are worse off than ones here?
Sure. The answer is education. The elimination of mental health care
wold be throwing the baby out with the bath water.
>> I really get the picture you're looking at statistics that are 30-40
>> years out of date.
>>
>> > the facts are quite plain..
>> >> >I preach nothing...
>> >> facts are facts..however unpalateable to you..
>> >>
>> >> You are distorted, but dont realize it.
>> >
>> > It seems Fritz Redlich lived and died in vain as far as you are
> concerned
>> > then..
>>
>> Psychiatry of 25-40 years ago has little in common with psychiatry as
>> it is practiced today.
>
> On the contrary ...
> Dorniers tells us that "the history of psychiatry is a history of
> constantly changing rationalizations
> for relatively unchanging practices..
So What? Scientologists tell us we have aliens inside us that make us
unhappy.
>
> Thirty years ago university psychology departments
>> were commonly merged with philosophy departments. Psychologists did
>> not generally treat patients at all. Psychiatrists, at that time, were
>> the main providers of talk therapy. Since that time, psychology has
>> become an applied field, and psychiatry has moved great distances into
>> the realm of neurology.
>>
>> Advances in the science of the mind, thanks in large part to advances
>> in nuclear medicine, have been so vast and sweeping, that Redlich's
>> work is little more than an historical footnote today.
>
> social class differences
> as a relevant today as they have ever been..
Yes. But his particular observations about the relationship between class
and mental illness is most surely out of date. Why? Our definitions and
understandings of mental illness have changed greatly since his time.
Global socio-economic conditions have changed greatly since his time. All
he does is describe the relation of two states which no longer exist.
>
>> If you really want to make an argument regarding the relation between
>> class and mental health, might I suggest you start with Marx?
>
> LOL..
> you have the audacity to criticize empirical studies of social class
> differences in diagnosis whist invoking Marx??
In most cases I don't consider statistical models to valid empirical
evidence. See my other post. I'm much more receptive to an argument based
in historical materialism than I am in one rooted in statistics.
> I would suggest you famiarize yourself with more contempory marxist
> critiques of the role of psychiatry..
Define contemporary.
The trouble with Marxist critiques of science is that they necessarily
must look at the past. Science, however, looks to the future.
jake
"Velvet Elvis" <gam...@REMOVEsofthome.THISnet> wrote in message
> On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 02:19:23 -0800, jake wrote:
> I've not read this one yet, but want to. I have a hunch you'll want to as
> well:
Yes ..you are correct..have just ordered it..
:>)
>
>
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0674009541/qid=1080759148/sr=8
-5/ref=pd_ka_5/102-8094611-9797712?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
>
> In general, I'm inclined to embrace the medical view of mental illness,
> but totally reject the findings of psychologists and sociologists due to
> inherent flaws in methodology. That's basically where Hacking comes from
> in most of his work. It's the psychologists who tell us that our problems
> are often rooted in our own experience, rather than some greater material
> condition. It's the psychologists and not the psychiatrists who are
> responsibly for the depoliticizing and marginalization of individuals with
> mental illness. This is the area in which I want to focus in my graduate
> studies.
sounds fascinating..
BTW..William James has been one of my heroes for decades despite the obvious
burgeois context...
the Xstian bias notwithstanding... he said all ther is to say that is sane
about the multiplicity of
self long ago...
>
> Anyway. If you check out Hacking, I'll check out Scull.
Done deal...
I will respond more fully later..
Pablo
> << Subject: Re: Put Paxil in the USA water supply
> Date: Tue, Mar 30, 2004 11:26 PM
> Message-id: <406A3A76...@Kabul.gov>
>
> Actually, I think there was just a study produced that criticized the
> U.S. health care system for simply providing drugs to the poor without
> any therapy or rigorous follow-up. It's not surprising that it is
> handled in this manner in a free enterprise system. I'm not being
> critical of it. Just like everything else here, money (or good
> insurance) talks. >>
>
> I personally think its actually good no "therapy" is provided to them.
And why should people in lower economic classes be deprived of therapy if
other classes can afford it?
They are already getting the meds.
They should be able to get therapy to go with the meds if they so choose
(and, of course, it is a move I would encourage).
These
> problems are first and foremost medical issues and drugs are thus
necessary if
> the problem is halfway severe. People can and do get better with just
drugs and
> no therapy...but its rarely the other way around when people just get
therapy
> and no drugs. This is the approach the wealthier "worried well" oftentimes
take
> for milder mental health issues such as dysthymia, generalized stress,
"issues"
> type mental health problems...all the problems people with serious mental
> illness dont have.
No, we are not talking "worried well" here. We are talking about people
suffering just like you are, only they go to public clinics because they
cannot afford to go elsewhere. These folks should be provided with the
opportunity to augment their treatment with therapy...if only as emotional
support, Eric.
> Therapy should be the frosting on the cake of treatment. It is NOT the
> foundation of treatment for any halfway serious mental illness. Its
something
> that if its done at all, should come after a person has been on meds for a
> while and has recovered or semi-recovered. People who emphasize therapy
over
> meds for serious mental illnesses are deluded.
When you say the something like the above, it makes me want to put you in a
room with Albert Ellis and lock the door. We could heat the planet from the
debate you two would have. ;-)
Seriously mentally ill persons can be treated with meds and therapy
concomitantly. The therapy isn't to "cure" them or "fix" them but to help
them cope. It may not be YOUR cup of tea, but what is cake without
frosting?
Personally, I am in favor of tea, cake, and frosting.
Pablo
You might be interested in poking around here:
http://www.radpsynet.org/ before you paint all psychologists with a broad
brush. ;-)
Gabe
> << Subject: Re: Put Paxil in the USA water supply
> Date: Fri, Apr 2, 2004 3:15 AM
> Message-id: <Up8bc.11433$Dv2....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>
>
> "Fear Of a Paxil Planet" <deeps...@aol.comsuckthis> wrote in message
> news:20040331111906...@mb-m26.aol.com...
> > << Subject: Re: Put Paxil in the USA water supply
> > From: Major Zoloft MJZo...@Kabul.gov
> > Date: Tue, Mar 30, 2004 11:26 PM
> > Message-id: <406A3A76...@Kabul.gov>
> >
> > Actually, I think there was just a study produced that criticized the
> > U.S. health care system for simply providing drugs to the poor without
> > any therapy or rigorous follow-up. It's not surprising that it is
> > handled in this manner in a free enterprise system. I'm not being
> > critical of it. Just like everything else here, money (or good
> > insurance) talks. >>
> > -------------------------------------------------
> >
> > I personally think its actually good no "therapy" is provided to them.
>
> >And why should people in lower economic classes be deprived of therapy if
> other classes can afford it?
>
> They are already getting the meds.
>
> They should be able to get therapy to go with the meds if they so choose
> (and, of course, it is a move I would encourage).
>
> Well, from what Ive seen of the outpatient public mental health system, therapy
> is actually emphasized. At least here in North Carolina, the public system is
> heavily reliant upon masters degree level social workers, psychiatric nurses
> and psychiatric physicians assistants rather than psychiatrists or
> psychologists. They tend to do the "grunt work" such as basic diagnosing that
> in the private practice system is primarily done by psychiatrists and
> psychologists. There are psychiatrists and psychologists in the public system
> here, but you see them infrequently.
>
> Just the other day at my depression support group, one of the guys in the group
> who is bipolar and has it much much rougher than I do was talking about the
> public system. He said that here in the area Im in, he only gets to see a
> psychiatrist about once every six months. He was saying the psychiatrist is
> "booked up" that far in advance. Sounds like a crock of shit to me.
>
> Instead he gets most of his meds prescribed from a psychiatric nurse or PA and
> spends a lot of time in "therapy" with a psychiatric social worker. The social
> worker I personally know, cause she was the moderator of my depression support
> group for a while. I wouldnt trust her to diagnose a lima bean.
>
> Anyway, thats what a lot of the public mental health system is made up of,
> masters degree level psychiatric social workers and "counselors." You spend an
> awful lot of time in therapy, but not with a real psychologist. And actual time
> on with psychiatrists is low.
>
> I have talked to the local county mental health people on the phone tool. At
> one time I called them out of curiosity, wondering what their "program" was
> like. I was considering going there cause I wasnt getting anywhere with my
> private practice psychiatrist. I wondered if they had a different setup. Well
> they sure do have a different setup and it revolved around "therapy" and social
> workers. The person I talked to discussed how meds were overemphasized an there
> were "other" aspects that could be done (talk therapy). I said "no thanks" and
> was quite irritated actually. I let them know I was irritated too and actually
> made the comment that "social workers shouldnt be involved in diagnosis." There
> was a long pause on the phone.
>
> So from what Ive seen of the public system, it could actually be argued that
> therapy and "psycho-social" aspects are emphasized, resulting in arguable poor
> diagnosing and without a doubt...limited time seeing an actual Medical Doctor.
>
it seems to work similarly in the small town county seat in ohio where
i live. There are no psychiatrists in town, they are all in Columbus,
30 minutes away and they are booked months in advance unless you are
willing to self pay or you have some connection. however, being the
county seat, there is a local mental health center and a fair number
of people with serious mental health problems--severe bipolar,
schizophrenia, severe depression--who utilize the center. they have
two psychiatrists there although i think they are there on a limited
schedule. there is quite an emphasis on therapy, especially group
therapy. i've talked to some of the guys and they attend but it's
almost like a social thing and something to do to keep them off the
streets or out of the public library. i'm all for therapy, but
attending manditory group therapy every day seems rather depressing
and dehumanizing, especially if the social worker is on a mission.
chances are these guys are not going to improve dramatically with
therapy or even with meds; maybe with meds but not sitting around in a
circle doing cognitive therapy every day. recently a positive thing
has happened in our community--a drop-in center i believe they call
it. it's a house donated by a local benefactor where mentally ill can
hang out and do normal things, not just talk about how their thinking
is wrong. it is supervised by a few social workers but each time i've
gone there were just a bunch of people hanging out, playing cards,
talking, cooking, etc. they didn't have to feel the stigma of their
illness by being forced into a "normal" stressful social situation, in
which they probably would not feel accepted (before i became ill i had
the same attitude as everyone else in this town, that they are a bunch
of crazies); nor do they have to be in a situation where they are
monitored and are forced to talk about their problems constantly. it's
really nice. i don't go there too much but the few times i've been
there it seemed great. they weren't talking about their meds or their
problems as much as you might think. one man kept claiming he was
related to the queen of england but that's possible. so i guess my
point is that having severe mental illness is awful enough- there has
to be some sort of escape other than constant group therapy. this
drop-in center provides it.
gabe