the new witchcraft for depression
Erin
clinical, suicidal depression some yrs. ago,
against my pleading not to. He went bonkers
and tried to kill himself. The psychocounsellor
therapists pounced on him like a flock of vultures
and pronounced the diagnosis-- co-dependent
marriage. Our 30-year marriage is toast. However,
he did have to crawl to the hospital after crashing
and trying to hang himself. The max dose of
the antidepressant brought him back to life.
The counsellors seemed to have considered that
little detail insignificant. The dr. saw him 2x in one year
over this crisis; the vultures, every week at $110.00
per hour and continue to pry into his soul. He is
brainwashed that his problem is a "co-dependent"
marriage. Indeed, if he did not depend on me, he
would have killed himself on the first suicide attempt
when we first met, before diagnosis of depression.
I think they should all be gathered and given ECT.
Erin
-estranged of beloved husband and friend for 30 years.
thanks a lot you ignorant, heartless bastards; he
could have been dead and depression would not have
crossed their collective pop-psychology minds.
Anonymous Sender
I am sorry to read you are having such grave difficulty
with your husband and marriage of 30 years.
Based on my own experience, many years ago, with the type
of counselor-therapists you describe, I believe they are
trained to take a "narrow view" of their client's (your
husband's) best interest. Hence, rather than taking
a more carefully weighted view of your husband's life and
problems, their easiest path has been to drive home the
point that he should separate from you, his wife of
30 years.
When his life becomes much worse after the separation,
what will they care? They'll just counsel him to make a
new life. It'll be his fault that he can't do that.
Easy for them to counsel, but tragic for the two lives
involved.
My unknowing instinct is to tell you not to try too hard
to keep things together. That in itself may drive your
husband away. Give him the space he wants. The best hope
is that he comes to "his senses" and realizes "which side
his bread has been buttered on" for the last 30 years.
On the other hand, and this may sound harsh, if the marriage
is a "runaway freight train" moving toward legal dissolution,
then you should prepare to move on.
You have plenty of life ahead of you, and making the next phase
of your life work should become your focus.
Your husband is an adult, despite his impairment of heart
and mind, and he has to be held to account for the decisions
he makes.
Erin
Thank you for taking the time to write such a thoughtful
reply. Being with him for 30 years, i have witnessed the
effects of medications on his behaviour, and the severe
depression that came without antidepressants, as well
as the withdrawal hypomnia. I, too know about depression
and bipolar disorder. Therefore, i am inclined to put great
emphasis on the value and effect of drugs on mental illness.
This is particularly, so as his mental state is now starting
to change and so is his assessment of our relationship.
However, i am at this point very exhausted, not only in
trying to "save" him from Scientology-like treatments, but
from his own lack of faith in biological psychiatry. Yes,
I think i have to let it go-- after all if the doctors and
therapists don't see what is going on, i can't very well
project the same authority.
Thanks again.
Erin
George Orwell
Il mittente di questo messaggio|The sender address of this
non corrisponde ad un utente |message is not related to a real
reale ma all'indirizzo fittizio|person but to a fake address of an
di un sistema anonimizzatore |anonymous system
Per maggiori informazioni |For more info
https://www.mixmaster.it
Nom dePlume
news:3591b9cc-264a-4cc6...@d62g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> Thank you for taking the time to write such a thoughtful
> reply. Being with him for 30 years, i have witnessed the
> effects of medications on his behaviour, and the severe
> depression that came without antidepressants, as well
> as the withdrawal hypomnia. I, too know about depression
> and bipolar disorder. Therefore, i am inclined to put great
> emphasis on the value and effect of drugs on mental illness.
> This is particularly, so as his mental state is now starting
> to change and so is his assessment of our relationship.
> However, i am at this point very exhausted, not only in
> trying to "save" him from Scientology-like treatments, but
> from his own lack of faith in biological psychiatry. Yes,
> I think i have to let it go-- after all if the doctors and
> therapists don't see what is going on, i can't very well
> project the same authority.
>
> Thanks again.
>
> Erin
Erin, I'm very sorry to hear this. It may yet be that your husband finds
what he needs, recovers, and comes to understand the truth of his situation.
I will hope for this, for both your sakes.
--
Nom dePlume, Ph.D.
Why, yes, in fact, I am a rocket scientist.
Find my book, Medicines for Mental health, and free drug information, at
www.MentalMeds.org
=====
Erin
Thanks Nom, he has changed and maybe does need something
else at this mid-life point of his life. I don't want to push someone
to be or do something that he does not want to do; better to be alone
by yourself, than alone with someone who resents the marriage.
Erin
cloudya...@yahoo.com
> Nom dePlume wrote:
> > "Erin" <squig...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
I thought he was moving back with you...
"Too late, he's moving in tomorrow. :-(
Erin "
So, since you posted that to ASM on Sunday, he's back, right???
Cloudy :D
waiting for 8/26/2008
Erin
LostBoyinNC wrote:
> I am sorry to hear that it sounds like you and your husband may have
> become victims of busy body, intermeddling, psychobabbling social
> worker types. I avoid them like the plague...wont use one in fact.
> Thats how I got my own treatment derailed ten years ago...some asshole
> busybody masters degree social worker who basically was doing the
> diagnosing and not my psychiatrist.
>
> I have said many many many times it should be totally illegal for
> social workers, no matter what their experience or how good they think
> their masters degree is, to diagnose anything more than Woody Allen
> syndrome. Most are incompetent, many are nutcases, many of them are
> fascinated by the sexual lives of their patients...they are the worst
> the mental health profession has to offer and one of the reasons (one
> of many) that the mental health profession has a bad name.
>
> Like I said, I avoid them, wont use them, its too subjective putting
> such critical decisions into others hands who are highly likely to be
> incompetent and on meds themselves.
>
> My heart goes out to you...
>
> Perhaps you should contact a lawyer to sue for loss of consortium over
> this fucked up idea these psychobabblers have put into your ex
> husbands head? Could you also complain against them at your Quebec
> social worker licensing board?
>
> Eric AKA LostBoyinNC
Thanks Eric. I have noticed a lot of vicarious vulture-type
interest in this break-up from many socially enlightened sides;
i think had we tried to resolve our problems entirely on our own
we would have been much better off. And the problems would
not have started had he been encouraged not to get off his
badly needed medication-- given the evidence of past experience
of suicidal crashes. But i think there is some hope for this
marriage,
as he is starting to come around now that he is back on the meds.
Erin
Erin
How psychotherapists *can* help:
I can think of a way that counsellors *can* help. Not all mental
illnesses are of the save degree of gravity or cause. The
biologically-based chronic mental illnesses require medications
in the majority of cases, whereas a transient personalm marital, or
job
problem can be solved through strategies of behaviour.
If counsellors must treat mentally ill people, (rather than people
experiencing life-problems), they can find ways to research the
right sources for necessary medications for schizophrenia,
or bipolar or major depression, or even Alzeimer's. Then they
can direct the patient to those resources or doctors, to get
the help they need. They can also help them cope with the
side-effects of these drugs, maybe consulting with physicians
themselves on how to encourage people to take their
medication despite the side effects, and explain the alternatives.
They do tend to shy away from this stuff, which doctors do not
have enough time for. If they can't do that, they should be
frank and stick to the social problems and away from medicine.
And they should say so to their patient.
Erin
Erin
The drug he is taking now SUCKS BIG TIME. I feel sorry for
him, that he is offered that drug or death. I wish he had more
resources.
Erin
Anonymous Sender
> I have noticed a lot of vicarious vulture-type interest
Good grief, Erin!
Are you calling me a vicarious vulture??
All I did was give an off-the-cuff reply
to your original post in this thread.
I've had some previous experience with LISW types
doing talk therapy, so I could relate to what you were
saying about your husband having been unduly influenced
by them.
It was difficult to avoid LISW-types because they were part
of a flea-bitten HMO's repertoire of mental health services.
This HMO wouldn't let a consumer talk to an MD-trist
about anything other than meds, and that for only 15 minutes
per visit.
They let the LISW do the 50 minute hour of "psychotherapy"
because they didn't cost as much as the MD-trist.
That's how those crooks at the HMO kept costs down.
I suspect they operate the same way with major procedures.
They keep costs down, while certain patients die.
I apologize if I gave you the impression of having a
vulture-type interest in your situation.
But I am no vulture, despite what some of my friends here
may say.
Anonymous
Borked Pseudo Mailed
Nom dePlume
news:4e3e5c43-4260-4e33...@h11g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> My heart goes out to you...
I have to say, Eric, that this is the nicest thing I've ever seen you write.
It is good to see this from you.
Jonathan
When my daughter enrolled in a popular university psychology program
she was immediately turned against me, her father. She would give
lectures on being an abused child. Now she works in the profession,
and all men are wrong, weak and immoral. Obviously we do not have a
relationship.
My ex-wife bought the book "Woman Who Love Too Much." She did not
read it, she just bought the book. The title had the weapon she
needed.
My point: I have met a few good professionals, and a bunch of pseudo
psychologists. Spend time on selecting those people who surround you.
Regards: Skipper
Erin
Hi Skipper,
I hope your daughter has developed a more balanced view;
yes, you are right that some psychologists are helpful and some
not. I think they should be there at the right time for the right
cause-
if it is a medical condition, they should recognize it and say so.
I mean, it could happen to them or their family, that there is an
overdose for example-- you can't use psychoanalysis to
correct that problem -- you need a doctor or Emergency care.
I am aware that it has been a pet vexation of mine that medication
often takes a back seat in psychiatric problems, and i may just
be pushing too hard. But in this case, i have witnessed the
effect of drugs, and therefore have evidence. As for psychological
problems, they are always there in the duration of a long and
struggling
life, but medication and knowledge and wisdom in psychopharmacology
should come first. If you get the wrong drugs and get very sick,
you can expect many psychological problems to arise that would
not have if psychiatric care took priority.
"Women who love too much"- yeah i know i have seen the pop book;
You know what i would like to see? "Doctors who care too much".
:-)
Erin
Erin
LostBoyinNC wrote:
> Erin, if he's back on meds, I bet if the meds worked pretty good
> before, they will work good again. Once the meds have kicked in good,
> I bet he will get smart and your marriage situation will improve.
>
> Try to keep him away from psychotherapists, social workers...they are
> a bunch of nutso women mostly. Many tend of overanalyze simple things,
> many worry about piss ants when elephants are stomping you to death
> and many of them have messed up histories themselves. Many of the
> women in social work go into it because they were "abused" children
> and that sort of thing and have a big chip on their shoulder. Some are
> on power trips.
>
> I bet if your husband stays on meds and stays away from the
> psychobabblers, your marriage might still survive.
>
> Eric
It's a nasty drug, but it saved his life. They gave him a weaker one
in the same class (N.....). I recongized it right away, and
remembered that
they had tried that before. It was too weak, and i knew it would be
too weak, but i did not say anything to avoid conflict. Again, i was
right. However,
i may not necessarily be right all the time; there may be coincidental
issues when you suffer from drug collapse. Now, that he's taking
the poison, yes he is starting to be like my old husband again and
making overtures. The problem is that a lot of damage has been
done, and he's not grovelling enough-- at least not comensurate
with the damage. I am not a saint and the hell i have been through
has left me with a limited amount of emotional strength. I can't
forgive
everything forever, especially since i am the one nagging "shut up
and take your drugz", and his pals who seem to have priority in
his life now, are fluffy, young equivocators with a smattering of
Jung, Freud, Maslow, etc. and a lot of good-will and respect for
the "personality".
I'm doing my best. What a disaster. He should have gone to a
Dr. Ivan Goldberg or the big hospital we have where they specialize
in major depression. But, i may be wrong about the levels of
expertise. He is a difficult case and has had misfortune with
his treatment; not the only one i am sure. Still, there is a lot
ideology that has directed his treatment.
Erin
nav
Are you sure his living with you didn't make him depressed?
Erin
NO, i am not sure. And if that is what he believes he should tell
me so, truthfully. Before this med withdrawal, he swore he was
happy with me etc. etc. So, either he is not recovered, has
found a new life in the interim and is blaming me now, or he was
lying for many many years, and very convincingly. It's up to him
to tell me what he wants. But i saw him trying to commit suicide
every time he withdrew and that was 3x.
Erin
nav
> is a biological brain illness. That would be like saying she caused
> his epilepsy or parkinsons disease.
i don't think it's that simple when it comes to depression.
Erin
But Nav,
perhaps you should ask yourself, if i did not myself develop
severe anxiety with many medical accidents, in the course
of trying to be a cheerleader and witnessing very traumatic
suicide attempts; did that make me depressed? No, because
lithium saved me most of the time; but it certainly made me
tired and unhappy.
Erin
nav
I believe you are tired and unhappy.
I don't understand why he's made suicide attempts.
That suggests he should be hospitalized.
Nom dePlume
> On Mar 26, 11:30 pm, "Nom dePlume" <m...@mentalmeds.org> wrote:
>> "LostBoyinNC" <Deepsand...@aol.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:4e3e5c43-4260-4e33...@h11g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > My heart goes out to you...
>>
>> I have to say, Eric, that this is the nicest thing I've ever seen you
>> write.
>> It is good to see this from you.
>>
> So has your doctor diagnosed you with delusions that you are a
> psychopharmacology expert, Nom? I havent seen your book at Barnes and
> Noble. You really carry this thing too far. If you wanted to write a
> book thats fine, but writing a textbook about psychopharm meds as
> if you are a medical expert is pushing things. If you wanted to write
> a book about your own experience with depression and wanted to talk
> about the meds that helped you that would be fine. But your holding
> yourself out as some sort of psychopharmacology expert without any
> formal medical credentials is IMO, mentally sick....psychotic perhaps.
>
> Eric AKA LostBoyinNC
It's unfortunate that you did not accept a simple expression of appreciation
for what it was. I was not putting you down. I was recognizing that you had
done something good, and letting you know that I thought well of you for it.
I was not attempting to pick a fight with you. That kind of behavior does
not appeal to me, and wasting time in pointless argument holds no interest
at all for me
So let me make this point clearer. When you returned here after your long
absence, telling all and sundry that you were so much improved as a result
of treatment for apnea and low testosterone, I was happy for you. You may
find that difficult to believe, but it is true. I hoped that you would show
more consideration to people who participate here than you used to, and I
have seen some evidence to this effect. I think that's a good thing.
I wish you the best, Eric. I mean that in all sincerity. If you feel like
responding in kind, that is good, but it's your call.
Erin
He tried to commit suicide before being put on antifdepressants
when i hardly knew him. Whenever he stopped his meds,
he became very depressed and suicidal. He tried to kill himself
because he has major depression, and needs medication.
And yes, the last time he was hospitalized and treated to
stability be reinstatement of the his antidepressant drug.
Any psychoanalytic scepticism about this, will have to take
place while he is unmedicated.
Erin
nav
> problems to begin with, LONGSTANDING clinical depression problems. And
> he went off his meds and fell apart. Sounds like a simple explanation
> to me. You sound like youre in denial that major depression is a
> biologically based brain illness. You also sound like an asshole.
Depression has a psychological/cognitive component.
I believe Erin can speak for herself.
I don't see where she's appointed you her spokesman or guardian.
Isn't it muskrat season in NC?
Maybe you best go clean/oil up your guns... take 'em to bed with ya.
cloudya...@yahoo.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
Keep in mind... you guys are getting only ONE side of the story.
Michael has a much different story to tell... and the fact that he
spent as many years with her as he did just amazes me.
Cloudy. :D
Nom dePlume
> I have gotten a lot better with sleep apnea treatment. BUT...you dont
> listen.
Listen to whom? I listen to a lot of people. I even respond to a lot of
people. I have even responded to you here. But responding to you does not
mean agreeing with you.
> You are irritating.
Based on numerous replies I have seen to your writing over the years, you
irritate *far* more people than I do. Clearly, I do irritate you, but
avoiding the possibility of irritating you is not a priority for me.
> You believe in your heart of hearts you
> are some "authority" on psychopharmacology...to the point of
> publishing a manual on psychopharmacology drugs. Where are your
> credentials to do such a thing, Nom? Where are your MD, RN, PA or
> pharmacist licenses? Are you a psychopharmacology researcher working
> in R &D at some pharmaceutical or biotech company? No. By your own
> admission, you're a physicist with an interest in psychopharmacology.
> Thats fine and you have the freedom to do all the research you want on
> psychopharmacology, but when you go to the extent of formally taking
> yourself out as some authority on these drugs and publishing a BOOK
> on them, you've crossed the line into insanity and also, possibly,
> liability for negligence.
>
> You are sick dude, and Im not saying that as a cut down. If you want
> to publish books on psychopharmacology, thats fine. But go get some
> formal education and credentials in the field before doing it.
>
> Eric AKA LostBoyinNC
You have accused me of being psychotic, insane, sick, and numerous other
things over the years. I am none of these things, and your credibility to
make any evaluation of my stability or competence is nonexistent. (What was
that about needing credentials to practice medicine? I don't see a lack of a
medical degree preventing you from offering diagnoses to people whose only
pathology is disagreeing with you. I am far from the only person you have
attempted to shut down, or shout down, in this fashion.)
Your pervasive reliance on ad-hominem arguments instead of substantive
discussion continually undercuts your position. Your frequent posting of
medication information, while criticizing me for doing the same, is a
blatant exercise in hypocrisy.
The bottom line is that your behavior has eliminated any possibility of your
being taken seriously on this topic. That's a shame, but it is something
that is entirely under your control. Whether you choose to do anything about
it is up to you. As for me, I have no more interest in defending myself to
you than I do in keeping you from being irritated. I will continue to
provide what help I can to people who want it, and if that bothers you, the
solution is easy: Stop reading my posts.
nav
>
> Michael has a much different story to tell... and the fact that he
> spent as many years with her as he did just amazes me.
No question there are two sides to every story, and that it takes
two to tango.
No slight intended toward Erin, but it would be interesting to read the
husband's side.
nav
The nerve of that Eric AKA LostBoyinNC!
> The bottom line is that your behavior has eliminated any possibility of your
> being taken seriously on this topic. That's a shame, but it is something
> that is entirely under your control. Whether you choose to do anything about
> it is up to you. As for me, I have no more interest in defending myself to
> you than I do in keeping you from being irritated. I will continue to
> provide what help I can to people who want it, and if that bothers you, the
> solution is easy: Stop reading my posts.
Bravo Nom!
I didn't think you had in ya!
nav
> you is that you honestly hold yourself out as an authority on
> psychopharmacology, despite having no formal education or licensing
> in the psychopharmacology profession. I have posted many many
> articles and links here, but the links I post are written either by
> bona fide trained experts (psychiatrists) or by journalists who have
> gone out and actually interviewed those experts and reported back on
> what they do. For example, I posted some links recently regarding
> breakthroughs in schizophrenia genetics research because those
> articles were interesting to me and I thought those articles might be
> educational to others who lurk here.
>
> What I DO NOT do is hold myself out as some actual expert in
> psychopharmacology and treatment of severe mental illness. Despite
> having an encyclopedic knowledge of psychopharmacology myself, I dont
> go out and try to publish a book on the subject. That would be just
> plain weird...and also morally wrong as I lack the credentials to
> publish such a book.
>
> You on the other hand, do exactly that. I think thats wrong, I have
> seen others on here point out what you do is wrong...sick even. By
> calling you "sick" thats not giving you a psychiatric diagnosis, its
> simply common sense. Anyone who is a mental patient, who totally lacks
> formal education and licensing in the psychopharmacology profession
> and then actually goes out and publishes a manual on psychiatry
> drugs...thats pretty weird.
>
> You do have freedom of speech and freedom of the press and I suppose
> as long as nobody takes your book too awful seriously you dont hurt
> anybody. But I hope you make it crystal clear in your book that you
> are just a layman "with an interest in psychopharmacology" so that
> nobody takes you as an actual authority. Because you are not an
> authority, Nom.
>
>
>> Your pervasive reliance on ad-hominem arguments instead of substantive
>> discussion continually undercuts your position. Your frequent posting of
>> medication information, while criticizing me for doing the same, is a
>> blatant exercise in hypocrisy.
>
> to articles, written by others. Other information I post is my
> personal opinion and I make that clear. I have strong opinions on some
> of this stuff, but you can tell when its my opinion. You on the
> other hand, your posts often sound like some doctor authority or
> something that a naive person could take too seriously.
>
> My attack on you is not ad-hominem. You may perceive it that way, but
> its not. I am just pointing out to you that your going to the extreme
> of publishing a manifesto or manual on psychiatry drugs and holding
> yourself out as an authority figure is just plain weird.
>
>> The bottom line is that your behavior has eliminated any possibility of your
>> being taken seriously on this topic. That's a shame, but it is something
>> that is entirely under your control. Whether you choose to do anything about
>> it is up to you. As for me, I have no more interest in defending myself to
>> you than I do in keeping you from being irritated. I will continue to
>> provide what help I can to people who want it, and if that bothers you, the
>> solution is easy: Stop reading my posts.
>
> very odd or eccentric. Does your psychiatrist know you have gone to
> the extent of publishing your own manual on psychiatry drugs? Almost
> all psychiatrists and psychologists would perceive that as very
> strange for a mental patient to do, whether they'd tell it to your
> face or not.
>
> Have you actually gotten complete copies of your psychiatric records
> and read them, Nom? I think you might be surprised at what youd read
> in them, just a intuitive hunch.
>
> BTW, please put a disclaimer in your book that you are a mental
> patient who takes meds, with no formal education in psychopharmacology
> or in the medical profession. That way, nobody who reads your book
> will take it too awfully seriously.
>
> I consider your activities mildly dangerous.
It's only dangerous in as much as any reader puts sole credence and
reliance in what Nom posts without consulting his own doc, doing his own
research and study, and making his own self-evaluation.
I believe Nom intends for the info he posts to be only a starting point
for any patient's own query.
Consumers of medical and pharmaceutical services get the best of what's
available only when they are well informed. Becoming well informed by
necessity requires checking and cross-checking information from a
variety of sources.
Can't be more dangerous that keeping guns in the hands of the locals in
the District of Columbia.
nav
> He tried to commit suicide before being put on anti-depressants
> when i hardly knew him. Whenever he stopped his meds,
> he became very depressed and suicidal. He tried to kill himself
> because he has major depression, and needs medication.
> And yes, the last time he was hospitalized and treated to
> stability be reinstatement of the his antidepressant drug.
> Any psychoanalytic skepticism about this, will have to take
> place while he is un-medicated.
Thank you, Erin.
I hope he stays on his meds.
Would it be too much to ask what meds work for him??
Erin
He is working with his therapist towards a self-understanding. But
his therapist too, understands the need for antidepressants. I don't
like therapists, but i am not against anyone seeing them if they feel
helped by that treatment. It is just a personal aversion I have to
the belief that self-awareness can actually have a chronic change
on a personality, especially a personality going through mid-life
and disturbed through mental illness.
Speaking to my husband again, who wants to restitute closeness and
trust in the marriage, i must say that the weight loss is appalling.
In the
thirty years I have known him he has never been so thin- it looks like
100 lbs; the bones are sticking out, and you can see the striation of
the
muscles. But, he has limitless energy, and believes all of a sudden
that he really has
a very gregarious character-- an entirely new emergent quality as he
was always introverted since childhood, he exercises every day,
and has all kinds of plans and schemes that would exhaust anyone in
his condition.
So, i am wondering if the diagnosis is wrong-- right now he looks
manic. If he is manic depressive, then the drug he is taking would be
good for depression (dirty drug) but not for mania. He has also
come up with a new symptom of tremor- not bilateral. He says that it
is probably just the beginnings of Parkinson's. More likely the
drug he is taking. A second opinion would be nice; any opinion
would be nice from a professional.
As for our relationship nav, i think the strain of his illness has
changed all his relationships. He does not want to leave me, and
the only problem he has with me is the chronic nagging to see
a specialist. I have agreed to stand by him on his terms and
let him do what he wants to improve his life, and i won't leave
him. That takes a lot of stress off him (maybe puts a little more
stress on me, lol.) I am not nagging him anymore, because it has not
helped, and because even when he is suicidal or psychologically
disturbed, he seems completely unaware of it, and denies that there
is anything wrong-- e.g. the hanging was just a mood, and he
changed his mind. And, 'look at how big i am, look at my muscles'.
He does not look well.
Erin
nav
Erin,
I think you are a beautiful human being.
Erin
The meds that stop his depression have been the tricyclics-- on the
high metabolite end (if i understand their strength); however, from
personal observation, i have never seen him happier than when he
was on Remeron-- the big side effect being hypersomnia. He has
tried MAOIs, Tetracyclics, Tricyclics, Lithium, Remeron, Serzone,
Prozac, Effexor, Wellbutrin, and i can't recall how many others-- this
is a really
tough case. He seems to need something strong though.
Erin
Erin
What gives you such personal insight into this relationship Cloudy?
Where did you get the "different story to tell"? You do sound like
a troll-- provocative and irritating; back it up or clam up.
Erin
cloudya...@yahoo.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
I got the insight from Michael himself. Does that make me a troll?
Cloudy. :D
Erin
I don't believe you know Michael. I looked at your profile
and I am not the only one who thinks you a troll.
Erin