MAOI diet
Steve
Could you please explain why meats can not be eaten after they are
refrigerated for a while at home when one is on the MAOI diet. My interest
is if the 24 hour time limit eric cites is correct, and if so is it 24 hours
from slaughter.
Thanks
Steve
Larry Hoover
"Steve" <som...@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:XvCdnfOGC_X...@comcast.com...
No, it is not 24 hours from slaughter.
The production of tyramine generally requires that the meat is infected or
contaminated with lactic acid bacteria, which convert the amino acid tyramine to
tyramine, via decarboxylation. Decarboxylation is something that goes on in your
body all the time. Phenylalanine become phenylethylamine (PEA) by just that process.
L-DOPA become dopamine by decarboxylation. 5-HTP becomes serotonin by
decarboxylation.
For some biological reason, these decarboxylated amino acids (and derivatives) tend
to have very high biological activity. They all tend to have some signalling
ability, affecting other systems out of proportion to their concentrations.
Back to tyramine. Lactic acid bacteria are part of the process of curing meat, e.g.
pepperoni. The prevention of spoilage while the sausage dries depends on lactic acid
bacteria, and the resulting flavour is to a large extent, due to their presence.
Lactobacillus casei (the lactic acid bacterium added to cheese) produces huge
amounts of tyramine. But again, part of the reason cheese doesn't spoil as it cures
arises from this bacterium's presence in the cheese curds, introduced by artificial
"contamination".
Fresh meat has a limited shelf life for two reasons. One, it probably gets some
contamination directly in the slaughter process. But secondly, and most important,
the moist meat surfaces collect bacterial "spores" (dormant bacteria in a cyst type
form) from the air. Once they land on that fresh moist meat surface, it's bacterial
party time!
When you see recommendations for the shelf life of meat in your own refrigerator
(i.e. after you've bought it from a reputable market), you'll see recommendations
like 24 hours for ground meats and organ meats (including e.g. chicken livers), 72
hours for chops or steaks, and so on. Those thresholds are really based on that
random air-born contamination by invisible bacteria and yeast that are in the air in
untold billions. Ground meat, with it's high surface area (relative to the mass),
and organ meats, with their high nutrient load, are prime bacterial breeding
grounds. They have shorter fresh shelf lifes, for good reason.
Random contamination by bacteria leads to what we think of as food spoilage.
Deliberate contamination by bacteria can lead to cured or aged foods. What you want
to do is avoid those lactic acid bacteria (primarily), and the easiest way to do
that is to not eat foods that have been deliberately contaminated by them. That's
why aged cheeses, and cured meats, and soy sauce, etc. are out of the question.
Fresh meat, properly handled to avoid spoilage in general, is probably also properly
handled to avoid spoilage by lactic acid bacteria (via random exposure). If someone
in your house stores cured foods in your fridge, for example, cross-contamination is
a possibility, in your own home. But, by and large, proper food handling, and
selection from the lists of "safe" foods, should keep the risk down to a very small
one. You may want to talk to your doctor about getting a prescription for a small
amount of a "rescue medication", to counteract a hypertensive crisis. This would
allow you a far greater time period, and lesser risk of adverse outcome, while
seeking emergency medical care, in the event of a large tyramine exposure.
Way down in another thread, Nom de Plume was talking about doing tyramine exposure
trials, at home, using a blood-pressure cuff (a sphygmomanometer). That's the
perfect thing to do, to determine your own tyramine sensitivity.
Lar
Steve
indeed! More black and white from the master of subtlety, and not too
supportive either.
According to a very trustworthy source its 24 hours from when the cow is
killed eric....
"LostBoyinNC" <DeepS...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1114045006.7...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Way down in another thread, Nom de Plume was talking about doing
> tyramine exposure
> trials, at home, using a blood-pressure cuff (a sphygmomanometer).
> That's the
> perfect thing to do, to determine your own tyramine sensitivity.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------
>
> WRONG! As a former Parnate user, the advice given here is absolutely
> stupid and rings of risk taking. Eating potentially dangerous foods
> while on an MAOI and then "testing" yourself with a blood pressure cuff
> is absolutely stupid. Its basically playing russian roulette with your
> cardiovascular health.
>
> The only way to stay safe on irreversible and nonselective MAOIs, is to
> avoid ingesting much tyramine. That means adhering to the already well
> established MAOI diet rules...not "self testing" yourself. What happens
> when you "self test" yourself eating a pepperoni pizza and you fuck
> up...its too late then. Youve experienced an MAOI hypertensive crisis
> and damaged your body's delicate blood vessel system.
>
> Once those blood vessels get stretched out as in an MAOI induced
> hypertensive crisis, they tend to begin to lose their elasticity. Its a
> downward spiral from then on. This is a basic rule of cardiovascular
> medicine.
>
> If you dont agree with the 24 hour refrigeration rule written down by
> MAOI expert psychiatrist Dr. Ivan Goldberg, I suggest you Email him
> directly and ask him your question.
>
> MAOIs are tricky...Parnate in particular is tricky. Personally I wish
> Id never taken an MAOI.
>
> But then, a lot of people who dont live in the South have never seen a
> stroke survivor...
>
> Eric
>
Larry Hoover
"LostBoyinNC" <DeepS...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1114045006.7...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> tyramine exposure
> trials, at home, using a blood-pressure cuff (a sphygmomanometer).
> That's the
> perfect thing to do, to determine your own tyramine sensitivity.
>
> WRONG!
One word, Eric. Dose.
No wonder you're so unable to grasp simple pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics.
You don't understand dose.
Steve
>
> Jake wrote:
> > On 20 Apr 2005 18:06:18 -0700, "LostBoyinNC" <DeepS...@aol.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >Way down in another thread, Nom de Plume was talking about doing
> > >tyramine exposure
> > >trials, at home, using a blood-pressure cuff (a sphygmomanometer).
> > >That's the
> > >perfect thing to do, to determine your own tyramine sensitivity.
> >
>
------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >WRONG! As a former Parnate user, the advice given here is absolutely
> > >stupid and rings of risk taking.
> >
> >
>
> extremely dangerous advice...yes even lethal advice.
fear mongering, so typical!
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Eating potentially dangerous foods
> > >while on an MAOI and then "testing" yourself with a blood pressure
> cuff
> > >is absolutely stupid. Its basically playing russian roulette with
> your
> > >cardiovascular health.
actually it makes a lot of sense--one can slowly and carefully find their
sensitivity to tyramine. Naturally only a fool would eat peparoni pizza
without testing other things first!
> > >The only way to stay safe on irreversible and nonselective MAOIs, is
> to
> > >avoid ingesting much tyramine. That means adhering to the already
> well
> > >established MAOI diet rules...not "self testing" yourself. What
> happens
> > >when you "self test" yourself eating a pepperoni pizza and you fuck
> > >up...its too late then. Youve experienced an MAOI hypertensive
> crisis
> > >and damaged your body's delicate blood vessel system.
The idea of titrating is to find the safe dose, eric, avoiding troubles.
> > >
> > >Once those blood vessels get stretched out as in an MAOI induced
> > >hypertensive crisis, they tend to begin to lose their elasticity.
> Its a
> > >downward spiral from then on. This is a basic rule of cardiovascular
> > >medicine.
> > >
> > >If you dont agree with the 24 hour refrigeration rule written down
> by
> > >MAOI expert psychiatrist Dr. Ivan Goldberg, I suggest you Email him
> > >directly and ask him your question.
How does the 24 hr rule take into account the time the cow has been dead?
It seems that only frequent BP checks can assure safety.
Steve
> One word, Eric. Dose.
>
> No wonder you're so unable to grasp simple pharmacokinetics and
> pharmacodynamics.
> You don't understand dose.
--------------------------------------------------
>
> No Larry, YOU dont understand! You dont experiment with foods from the
> no no MAOI list and then "test" yourself with a fucking blood pressure
> cuff. Thats NOT the way to safely take MAOIs. Thats the DUMBASS way to
> take MAOIs.
>
> If youre going to take MAOIs and do it right, as in safely, you have to
> make a decision in the beginning. That you are willing to make some
> sacrifices in your life and your diet. As in no pepperoni pizzas. Very
> little eating out at restaurants. Making sure all your foods are very
> fresh, particularly dairy and protein foods. Etc. etc. etc.
>
> It has nothing to do with pharmacokinetics...youre just a fucking know
> it all idiot. You wouldnt last a month on Parnate.
>
> Eric
>
Out of curiosity, lostboy, how long did you last on parnate, and just why in
your depressed state were you clearing land with a chain saw?
If Larry's wrong, and this has nothing to do with pharmacokinetics what is
the MAOI diet? Why do you hold fast to a static rule rather then accept the
superiority of dynamic real time testing?
Are you so sure that what works for you will work for everyone?
Larry Hoover
"Jake" <inv...@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:oivd611mdpu60dko3...@4ax.com...
> not to mention potentially lethal..
The only thing potentially lethat here, is you, sir. You're enough to make people
suicidal. The sheer mass of propaganda....
Larry Hoover
>
> actually it makes a lot of sense--one can slowly and carefully find their
> sensitivity to tyramine. Naturally only a fool would eat peparoni pizza
> without testing other things first!
> The idea of titrating is to find the safe dose, eric, avoiding troubles.
I'm glad you got the message, though some can't do so.
Lar
Larry Hoover
> you switch seamlessly from peddling disinformation on the risks of
> SSRIs in pregnancy to peddling disinformation about safety risks with
> MAOIs and diet..
The issue on the MAOI diet is absolute dose of tyramine, not to exceed about 6
mg/meal. That's not too hard, is it?
> is there ANYTHING you do not consider you know more than the
> authorities about?
I have never said I know more than the authorities. But, without a shred of a doubt,
I know more than you.
> sorry you blew your college career larry but this is not the place to
> relive it..as someone suggested join a sci. group..
What, so you can bellow your Chicken Little bleatings without any oversight?
> of course ..you couldnt get away with the same bullshitting there
> could you?
I actually do much better there. More people do know what I'm talking about, so the
jakes quickly get the shaft.
>
> Dietary Restrictions
The banana thing is just plain wrong, for example. Old data.
I prefer the diet developed at Sunnybrook Hospital in Toronto.....you know, the one
by the guys who actually tested Domino's pizza, and found almost zero tyramine? It
depends on if the pepperoni is air-dryed or not, and chain pizza companies do not
use air-dried pepperoni. The amount of tyramine measured in half a Pizza Hut medium
pizza with double cheese and pepperoni was a completely harmless 0.0628 mg total.
And, that was in a sample of pizza **toppings** (the crust was not included), with a
mass of 136.5 grams.
J Clin Psychiatry. 1999 Mar;60(3):191-3.
Refining the MAOI diet: tyramine content of pizzas and soy products.
Shulman KI, Walker SE.
Department of Psychiatry, University of Toronto, Sunnybrook Health Science Centre,
Ontario, Canada.
BACKGROUND: Continuous refinement of the monoamine oxidase inhibitor (MAOI) diet has
resulted in much reduced and simplified recommendations that attempt to balance
safety and practicality. In the spirit of evidence-based practice, dietary
restrictions should be based on carefully documented case reports and valid tyramine
analyses. Residual concerns have focused on combination foods such as pizza and a
variety of soy products. We determined the tyramine content of pizzas and a variety
of soy products in order to refine dietary recommendations for use with MAOIs.
METHOD: High-pressure liquid chromatography analysis of tyramine content was
performed on a variety of pizzas, soy sauces, and other soybean products. A tyramine
level of 6 mg or less was considered safe. RESULTS: ***No significant tyramine
levels were found in any of the pizzas, including those with double pepperoni and
double cheese.*** (Emphasis added) Marked variability was found in soy products,
including clinically significant tyramine levels in tofu when stored for a week and
high tyramine content in one of the soy sauces. CONCLUSION: Pizzas from large chain
commercial outlets are safe for consumption with MAOIs. However, caution must be
exercised if ordering pizzas from smaller outlets or gourmet pizzas known to contain
aged cheeses. All soybean products should be avoided, especially soy sauce and tofu.
Individualized counseling and continuous surveillance of compliance are still
essential.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8617704
J Clin Psychiatry. 1996 Mar;57(3):99-104.
The making of a user friendly MAOI diet.
Gardner DM, Shulman KI, Walker SE, Tailor SA.
Department of Pharmacy, Sunnybrook Health Science Centre, University of Toronto,
Ontario, Canada.
BACKGROUND: Many monoamine oxidase inhibitor (MAOI) diets are considered to be
excessively restrictive and founded on poor scientific evidence. We present a safe
and practical MAOI diet based on the related clinical and analytic data. METHOD: We
used a critical review of the literature and our own tyramine assay results to
categorize foods to be restricted absolutely, taken in moderation only, or
unrestricted. RESULTS: We recommend that users avoid aged cheese; aged or cured
meats (e.g., air-dried sausage); any potentially spoiled meat, poultry, or fish;
broad (fava) bean pods; Marmite concentrated yeast extract; sauerkraut; soy sauce
and soy bean condiments; and tap beer. Wine and domestic bottled or canned beer are
considered safe when consumed in moderation. Other foods not mentioned are
considered unrestricted. CONCLUSION: The concerns about perpetuating an overly
restrictive MAOI diet include the avoidance by prescribers of a potentially useful
treatment option, excessive limitations on lifestyle for patients, and increased
risk to patients secondary to noncompliance with the diet. We propose an MAOI diet
that has a solid scientific and clinical basis and that is, above all, practical.
Journal of Clinical Psychopharmacology. 16(5):383-388, October 1996
Tyramine Content of Previously Restricted Foods in Monoamine Oxidase Inhibitor
Diets.
Walker, Scott E. MScPhm. Shulman, Kenneth I. MD, SM, FRCP(C). Tailor, Sandra A.N.
PharmD. Gardner, David BScPhm.
Department of Pharmacy, Sunnybrook Health Science Centre, University of Toronto,
Ontario, Canada.
It has been clearly demonstrated that individuals who are taking MAOIs are more
sensitive to the pressor effects of tyramine. [15] A critical issue in dietary
restriction relates to the amount of tyramine that will produce an increase in blood
pressure. Both Blackwell and Mabbitt [16] as well as Horowitz and associates [17]
have observed increases in blood pressure with the ingestion of only 6 mg of
tyramine. However, Blackwell and Mabbitt [16] were unable to reproduce these results
on rechallenge with 6 mg in the same subject. Bieck and Antonin [15] demonstrated
that an 8-mg oral dose of tyramine is sufficient to increase systolic pressure by 30
mm Hg in 50% of subjects receiving tranylcypromine. However, they also demonstrated
a wide intra-individual variation in responses in some patients that may be due to
variability in both the rate and extent of absorption. Furthermore, many foods have
been reported to contain variable amounts of other pressor agents [18-21] that may
also increase blood pressure, possibly contributing to variable response. [15,16]
Therefore, we have used a conservative upper limit of 6 mg of tyramine as a
guideline for safe ingestion. This is identical to the limit that we have used
previously. [7,8,11]
Chianti
In this study, we again analyzed an Italian Chianti wine and found no tyramine. This
is in agreement with the low or negligible levels reported by others. [8,13] Chianti
wine has been widely restricted for many years based on a single report of a
tyramine concentration of 25.4 mg/liter. [17] However, case reports of hypertensive
crises associated with this or other wines are lacking.
It is of interest to note that in our assay, if we eliminate sodium lauryl sulfate
(which acts as a counter ion) from our mobile phase, a compound in Chianti wine
coelutes with tyramine. Liquid chromatographic columns can separate this coeluting
peak with varying degrees of success. Therefore, it seems possible that the
long-standing restriction of Chianti wine may have been due to analytical
interference that led to an overestimation of the tyramine content. This points out
the need to carefully validate the analytical method before reporting tyramine
concentrations.
Cheese
By far, most reported fatal and nonfatal MAOI-related hypertensive reactions have
been associated with the ingestion of cheese. [8] The restriction of all aged
cheeses is universally accepted. However, not all cheeses should be banned. In this
study, we analyzed mozzarella cheese and found extremely low amounts (0.01 mg/g),
even when stored at room temperature for 5 days. The content of this part-skim
mozzarella cheese is much lower than the 0.16 mg/g observed in our previous report
of mozzarella cheese (28% milk fat). [8] Nevertheless, both concentrations would be
regarded as safe when less than 30 g of cheese is ingested. Furthermore, the
tyramine content provided in the current report is similar to the low concentrations
reported for other mild and fresh varieties of cheeses such as cottage cheese, cream
cheese, ricotta, and processed cheeses. [8,19,13,16] In this study, we also analyzed
the tyramine content of the packaged cheese powder found in a Kraft Macaroni &
Cheese Dinner (Kraft Foods, Inc., Glenview, IL) and found no tyramine.
Beer
In this study, we analyzed only one beer, a bottled German beer (Beck's, Brauerei
Beck & Co., Bremen, Germany) and found it to contain small amounts of tyramine (1.0
mg/liter). This is in agreement with the results of the analysis of other bottled
beers analyzed by our group [8,11] and others. [17,22,23] However, we have
previously reported alarmingly high tyramine concentrations of tyramine
(27.05-112.91 mg/liter) in four tap beers [11] and suggest that storage and
contamination of the hose from the keg to the tap may provide conditions conducive
to the production of tyramine. We recommend that tap beers be avoided by patients
who are taking MAOIs, and because no bottled or canned beers from North American
breweries have been identified as containing dangerous amounts of tyramine, we
acknowledge that these can be consumed in moderation.
Bananas
A number of investigators have reported that banana pulp is safe, [8,24] although
the peel has been observed to contain moderate to high amounts of several vasoactive
substances, including serotonin, dopamine, and noradrenaline in addition to
tyramine. [25] In this study, we observed the skin of a blackened banana to contain
2.58 mg of tyramine, whereas the pulp of each of two blackened bananas contained
less than half this amount. Both of these bananas had been stored at room
temperature for more than 1 week beyond the time when they were a ripened yellow. In
our previous study, the tyramine content of a fresh banana was below the limit of
detection and one whole peel was observed to have 1.42 mg of tyramine. [8] Although
the tyramine content does appear to have increased with storage, this could easily
be due to the variability in content between bananas. Furthermore, the bananas
tested in this study, even after prolonged storage, did not contain dangerous
amounts of tyramine. Therefore, we conclude that the pulp of an overripe banana is
safe.
Raspberries
Coffin [24] reported that raspberries contain 0.048 mg/g of tyramine (range:
0.013-0.093 mg/g). Our own analysis of raspberries with different presentations
(e.g., stored at room temperature or refrigerated for 4 days, with or without mold,
in jam, and frozen) yielded tyramine concentrations ranging from 0 to 0.001 mg/g for
berries and 0.021 mg/g for a frozen berry product. Based on our results and those of
Coffin as well as the observation that there are no reports linking raspberries to
hypertensive episodes, we conclude that raspberries are safe.
Prepared and sliced meat products
Fresh, sliced cold meat and other meat products were analyzed in this study and
generally found to contain low amounts of tyramine per 30-g serving. This is in
agreement with our previous report. [8] We also chose to analyze some canned meat
and pasta products (Chef Boyardee, American Home Products, Inc., Madison, NJ) and
found them to contain safe amounts of tyramine per serving.
The freshness of meat, specifically chicken livers, has been identified as a factor
affecting the amount of tyramine. [26] In this study, we observed fresh chicken
liver to contain very small amounts of tyramine. However, after 9 days' storage at
room temperature, the tyramine content had soared to 2.13 mg/g. Although the chicken
liver stored for 9 days at room temperature could not have been mistaken as fresh,
and would not likely have been prepared and eaten by anyone, it does illustrate a
point about freshness. A previous evaluation of chicken liver indicated that storage
in the refrigerator for 5 days increased the tyramine concentration from 0 to 0.051
mg/g. [8] The current method adjusted the storage conditions only to create a
definitive test of freshness on tyramine in chicken liver.
Sausage
As for cheeses, the degree of aging and variety of cured meats (e.g., salami,
mortadella, pastrami) are tremendous and tyramine content can range from low and
safe amounts to dangerously high levels. [8,9,21] Of most concern are the air-dried
sausages, for example, salami. As sausages dry, an increase in the liberation of
free amino acids has been observed to occur. [27] Because sausage can contain
microorganisms with decarboxylase activity, [28] tyrosine can be converted to
tyramine during the drying process. In this study, we tested a variety of air-dried
sausages, analyzing samples taken both from the core and outer rim (next to the
skin). In three of the four samples, the sample nearest the skin contained 20 to
360% more tyramine, whereas in the fourth sample the concentration in the center of
the sausage was sevenfold higher than the sample taken from the area next to the
skin. Of the 10 sausages tested, 2 were observed to contain more than 6 mg of
tyramine per 30-g serving, and 2 others were observed to contain between 4 and 6 mg.
Therefore, although there are no case reports associating air-dried sausages with
hypertensive episodes, we recommend that air-dried sausages continue to be a dietary
restriction for patients receiving MAOIs because of the variability in tyramine
content among sausages and because of the likelihood that a serving will be greater
than 30 g. However, as was pointed out previously, this restriction does not include
fresh sliced-meat products, such as sliced cooked ham.
Sauerkraut
In this study, sauerkraut was observed to have a significant tyramine content per
serving, (0.031 mg/g). This amount is lower than previously reported by Shulman and
colleagues [8] (0.055 mg/g) but still within the range (0.020-0.095 mg/g) reported
by Lovenberg [25] and Da Prada and associates. [9] All of these reports suggest a
potentially dangerous tyramine content per serving, yet there are no case reports
linking sauerkraut to hypertensive episodes. It is possible that the tyramine in
sauerkraut may not be completely bioavailable or that the rate of absorption of
tyramine from sauerkraut is slow, producing little change in blood pressure.
However, in view of the confirmed high tyramine concentration per serving of
sauerkraut, we recommend that it be restricted in patients on a regimen of MAOIs.
Storage
Improperly stored or spoiled food can create an environment where tyramine
concentrations may increase. These foods must have either free tyrosine or tyrosine
liberated on storage, which is then converted to tyramine by microorganisms with
decarboxylase enzymes. [27] This was shown to occur with the chicken livers stored
at room temperature for 9 days and is the postulated mechanism for production of
tyramine in air-dried sausages and tap beers. [11] However, for a number of other
foods (raspberries, mozzarella cheese, and bananas), improper or prolonged storage
did not increase the tyramine content to unsafe levels. In these later cases,
although conditions of growth were present, it is likely that either tyrosine was
not liberated, was liberated in only small quantities, or decarboxylation activity
was lacking.
Chocolate
Our analysis of a single chocolate bar (Toblerone, Kraft General Foods Canada Inc.,
Don Mills, Ontario, Canada; 35-g bar) failed to demonstrate measurable quantities of
either tyramine or phenylethylamine, yet we did observe significant quantities of
theobromine (2.78 mg/g) and caffeine (1.07 mg/g). The choice of a Toblerone
chocolate bar arose from a case in which a young woman maintained on tranylcypromine
(Parnate, SmithKline Beecham Pharmaceuticals, Oakville, Ontario, Canada) reported
symptoms of dizziness, light-headedness, blurred vision, and headache 45 min after
ingesting an unspecified amount of a Toblerone chocolate bar. The patient arrived at
a hospital emergency department and was found to have normal blood pressure and
heart rate, although she demonstrated slurred speech and pallor. We believe that
many case reports, with only subjective findings that are not validated by objective
measures, have led to the restriction of many foods. Headaches, which can occur for
a variety of reasons, can also occur with chocolate ingestion in patients who are
not taking MAOIs. In these cases, the cause does not appear to be related to either
tyramine or phenylethylamine. We would suggest that this reaction may have been due
to the stimulant effects of the methylxanthines (theobromine and caffeine).
Soy
Soy sauce and other soy bean preparations have been found to contain tyramine in
significant concentrations, [9,10,29] whereas others have reported low
concentrations. [8,13] From an analysis of Far Eastern cuisine, Da Prada and Zurcher
[10] reported tyramine concentrations of 293 mg/liter and 878 mg/liter in two
samples of soy sauce. Similarly, high concentrations (941 mg/liter) of tyramine were
observed in the single soy product tested in this study. As with some other foods,
the variation in tyramine content reported in various studies and between different
soy sauce products creates a potential hazard. We recommend that soy sauce be
avoided by patients taking MAOIs but acknowledge that patients may be able to ingest
some brands without serious consequences...."
Larry Hoover
First off, learn to snip. Cut out irrelevant material, and get to the point. You
know how to use a mouse and the backspace key, don't you? There are many ways to cut
text. Do it.
> There is a lot of conflicting information regarding the MAOI diet. The
> Shulman MAOI diet from Toronto, is the most liberal MAOI diet and quite
> frankly, I DO NOT TRUST IT!
Shulman et al, said, "Many monoamine oxidase inhibitor (MAOI) diets are considered
to be excessively restrictive and founded on poor scientific evidence. We present a
safe and practical MAOI diet based on the related clinical and analytic data." In
other words, they used modern analytical equipment (light years ahead of the devices
available in the 60's and 70's), and tested real food samples, and presented the
updated information. The created a list of forbidden foods (not worth the risk,
foods safe in moderation (stuff you can eat, but you have to watch how much; that's
the dose thing, Eric), and others that you never have to worry about.
All based on modern science, not just the reprinting of old data from the 70's.
But *you* don't trust it. I see. That's fine, all in all, but that's your decision
about *you*. That doesn't make me wrong, or dangerous, accepting Shulman et al.
> I am not going to eat pepperoni on an
> MAOI...period. I dont care what this shulman guy did in his tyramine
> research. I wouldnt eat a Domino's pepperoni pizza while on Parnate if
> someone held a gun to my head. THATS SUICIDE! I dont care WHAT Shulman
> in his tyramine research says.
Fine. We understand your position clearly now.
> Youre the kind of guy who if you went on Parnate, youd be in the ER in
> no time at all.
I wouldn't consider taking irreversible MAOIs because I love fermented foods. End of
story.
> You are stupid! LOL Stupid beyond belief!
No, I'm not. I'm informed. And, by the way, Shulman et al recommend doing tyramine
challenges, to determine individual sensitivity to this pressor amine. I didn't get
that idea out of thin air. Such a procedure is not for everyone, obviously.
Wussyboys need not even consider it.
Lar
Larry Hoover
> I dont care WHAT Shulman in his tyramine research says.
Fine. Your call.
Irrelevant ad hominem circumstantis snipped.
Steve
> Shulman MAOI diet from Toronto, is the most liberal MAOI diet and quite
> MAOI...period. I dont care what this shulman guy did in his tyramine
> research. I wouldnt eat a Domino's pepperoni pizza while on Parnate if
> in his tyramine research says.
What is the basis of your objection to the work cited by Mr. Hoover,
lostboy?
>
> I prefer the older MAOI diet that was developed in the late sixties and
> the seventies. Its conservative...its safe...it will keep you alive. It
> works.
What is the basis of your preference for a regimine over 30 years old,
rather then one developed to reflect the changing diets common with the
advent of processed foods in all aspects of diet in the United States, and
most of Canada?
>
> If you really believe in the Shulman MAOI diet and truly believe eating
> Domino's pepperoni pizza is safe while taking say, Parnate, I strongly
> believe you should put your belief to work. Go ask your doctor to be
> put on Parnate. Then go order a Dominos pepperoni pizza and eat it. I
> dare you.
How is suggesting that a person who disagrees with your opinion undertake
actions that you believe, based upon your writings in this very post
anything less then criminal?
>
> Youre the kind of guy who if you went on Parnate, youd be in the ER in
> no time at all. And youd make up some story to avoid blaming yourself
> for fucking up with the MAOI diet. You can never be wrong.
>
> Ive taken the MAOI Parnate for a period of up to six months. I worked
> my ass off to stay tyramine free but still fucked up. I had to go off
> it...it wasnt worth it...it was dangerous, unsafe, crazy. Although the
> Parnate gives a GREAT antidepressant and anti-anxiety effect. The
> problem is the fucking diet. Its a pain in the ass.
>
> Like I said, put your money where your mouth is and go on parnate and
> then follow Shulman's (lethal) MAOI diet and order a Domino's pepperoni
> pizza and eat one. We shall see if you have a stroke or not or end up
> in the ER.
>
> You are stupid! LOL Stupid beyond belief!
>
> Eric
>
Steve
> MAOIs, along with the older typical anti-psychotics, are the most
> dangerous drugs in psychiatry. MAOIs are IMO, far far dangerous than
> modern day ECT and I could care less if you dont believe that or not.
>
> Eric
>
The king has issued a royal edict!
**BOW** **BOW** **BOW**
All heil eric the opinioned!
David Harmon
alt.support.depression.medication, "Larry Hoover"
<larry...@sympatico.ca> wrote,
>The production of tyramine generally requires that the meat is infected or
>contaminated with lactic acid bacteria, which convert the amino acid tyramine to
>tyramine, via decarboxylation.
Should be tyrosine to tyramine.
Larry Hoover
"David Harmon" <sou...@netcom.com> wrote in message
news:429c2c56....@news.west.earthlink.net...
Thanks, I should have caught that on editing.
Indeed, tyrosine is decarboxylated to tyramine.
M
better to be safe than to be sorry. I never had one adverse event by
following those guidelines submitted by Jake.