Disagreement over children between spouses
Frank Thomas
certainly have been childfree as long as I've been aware of the issue
(I'm 31 now). I've never had children, never wanted any, and
generally don't like being around them. I have some affection for
VHEMT. I'm not quite a child hater, though I've never liked children,
even when I was one.
I've been married for nearly three years. We agreed not to have
children when we got married. Over about the last year my wife has
slowly realized that she really wants to have one child. Now she
really, really wants to try to have a child. She says it is so
important to her that she would leave me if I don't agree to try.
I'm not angry at my wife for changing her mind. She's been through a
lot and is working to be healthier every day. It is really wonderful
watching her develop from what I considered a wonderful person into an
even more wonderful person. Coming to the realization that she wants
a child is part of this process, and in that way it is good. I want
her to be true to herself.
I am frustrated that she wants a child so badly that she's willing to
leave me to pursue it, but such is life.
I feel like an idiot for not having gotten a vasectomy. She's been on
the pill since we've known each other. I have looked into getting
snipped several times, but I've always procrastinated. About a year
and a half ago I went to see a urologist I was referred to (with great
objection from my general doctor). The urologist turned out to be an
old fogey who didn't know about recent vasectomy techniques, so I
started looking for someone else, and didn't get around to it.
However, my wife says that even if I had gotten a vasectomy, she'd be
wanting to adopt. She says her need is to raise a child from the
beginning, not necessarily to have one live in her uterus. Me, I'm
not keen on raising a child, with or without my DNA.
I'm thankful that my wife hasn't tricked me and gotten pregnant by
"mistake" as I guess many women do when they want a child and the man
is ambivalent or against the idea and hasn't gotten a vasectomy.
In any case, I'm faced with a decision now: agree to have a child, or
face losing my wife. I don't want to have a child and at some level
think it is wrong to have a child without really, really wanting it
(the child didn't ask to be born after all). I don't want to "lose"
my wife (I put lose in quotes because I think we'd still be friends)
who is really my very best friend and the love of my life, who I've
been looking forward to growing old with.
Unfortunately I CAN'T have both.
So, I'd appreciate anecdotes, feedback, support, or whatever from
people who have been in similar situations -- in particular men who
haven't wanted children with wives who decided they wanted children
after marriage.
If you did end up having children, you might not want to crosspost to
alt.childfree, as it appears you'll get flamed to a toast. I'm
interested in all viewpoints, posted publically or sent to me
personally.
If you feel a need to flame me, go right ahead, I don't mind.
Thanks!
just a little bit desperate
Mistress Dominatra, Esq.
You should feel like an idiot. Vasectomy. Now. Planned Parenthood can give
you a reference to a skilled surgeon who will respect your decision.
> I'm thankful that my wife hasn't tricked me and gotten pregnant by
> "mistake" as I guess many women do when they want a child and the man
> is ambivalent or against the idea and hasn't gotten a vasectomy.
See above. Until your count is zero, you are celebate. Do not take a risk
of being oops'd. Women will lie about taking the pill; poke holes in
condoms, etc. Do not become one of those sad stories we often read in
Salon.
> In any case, I'm faced with a decision now: agree to have a child, or
> face losing my wife. I don't want to have a child and at some level
> think it is wrong to have a child without really, really wanting it
Damn straight it is wrong. It is not fair for a kid to grow up with an
absent parent who despises their existence. At best, you will be the
ambivalent parent who goes through the motions with little enjoyment. Your
kid will sense that and feel inadequate. At worst, we will be reading about
you in an IDWIYO. There are a few people here who remember one parent
wanting them and the other wanting nothing to do with them. I can not
relate to how they felt but I can assure you they did not feel they received
all the love they deserved. .
> (the child didn't ask to be born after all). I don't want to "lose"
> my wife (I put lose in quotes because I think we'd still be friends)
> who is really my very best friend and the love of my life, who I've
> been looking forward to growing old with.
>
> Unfortunately I CAN'T have both.
Then you need to explain to her that this is the case. Give her a choice:
child-rearing or you. If you go along with her and pop out a runt, you'll
be miserable. Childrearing is 24/7/365 of tedium. You don't want to go
through with it unless you really, really, really want.
Has your spouse thought of alternatives to childrearing? There are other
ways to contribute to the life of children without breeding them. Schools
need volunteers; Boys and Girls' Clubs need volunteers. There are many
disadvantaged kids out there who lack positive adult influence. They could
use a warm-hearted individual like your wife in their lives.
Just think about what will make you happy. Never compromise your happiness
for another individual; you'll just end up miserable.
MDE
Imajika
happened to a friend of mine TWICE). They'll forget to take their pills,
poke holes in the condom, etc. Buy your own condoms and keep them hidden.
RUN, don't talk to the nearest drug store.
-Imajika (Who is female and is ashamed of how low some women will stoop to
have a baybeee)
bkrrrrr
>
>I've been married for nearly three years. We agreed not to have
>children when we got married. Over about the last year my wife has
>slowly realized that she really wants to have one child. Now she
>really, really wants to try to have a child. She says it is so
>important to her that she would leave me if I don't agree to try.
>leave me to pursue it, but such is life.
Yep, people change, things happen, and stuff like that.
Nothing unusual there.
>In any case, I'm faced with a decision now: agree to have a child, or
>face losing my wife.
>
>Unfortunately I CAN'T have both.
It seems your choice is clear. However, since she's the one
who changed her mind it's really her responsibility to decide
whether to stick with it or leave for something different.
Presumably she has your best interests in mind and won't want to
put you in the position to make the mistake of choosing wrongly,
against your better judgement. Nevertheless, this situation
screams "danger!"
Just don't waffle on this issue - not one tiny bit - not even for a second.
The answer is "no" until you're absolutely 100% sure it's otherwise.
--
> bkrrrrr bkr@!purge!.lmtgtm.org :) :) \/ |\ _,,,---,,_ :) <
> CF++;TK++;TPI+++;A++;VF++;(v2.0) /\ PRrrr /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ <
> "I went to cyberspace and all I \/ |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' <
> got was this stupid .sig" - Anonymous /\ '---''(_/--' `-'\_) fL <
Jasminsalt
>happiness
>for another individual; you'll just
>end up miserable.
The bottom line and so damn true. Thanks. Kim
Ida Kern
posters) that give an honest reply to your question. We're not all kid
hating monsters here. There are some good people out there who have children
and try their best to raise them properly. I just hate the senseless
breeders who have one after another without being able to properly take care
of them. I also hate people who try to foist their beliefs on me.
As a happily married woman, if my husband had made the same demands, I might
have gone ahead and had a child. I love him so much that I probably would
have considered it for him. If possible, I would have adopted so the poor
child wouldn't have my DNA.
Since I suffer from OCD and depression, I am so thankful he did not make
those demands on me, though. I don't think I would have made a very good
parent, mentally or physically and I think it's kind of cruel for someone to
*demand* that their spouse gives them a baby. Very selfish. Me me me.
Wouldn't be so bad if she took care of the child all by herself, but you
know you are going to also have to help.............not only financially but
with time and energy as well. Getting up at 3 AM and changing diapers when
you have to work the next morning..........
Assuming you do not have any physical or mental problems to deal with, there
are a few things I think you should think about:
1. Do you normally get along well with your wife? Love her a lot? (I'm
asking this because I know of a women who wanted a child to help save her
shaky marriage. Children are tough enough on a good marriage, they very
rarely 'save' poor marriages.
2. How much do you *not* want to have a child? Some people are
ambiguous.......while others absolutely do NOT want any. (If you know you
are in the second category, I don't suggest going against your own values
when it comes to something as important as bringing another life in this
world.)
2. Consider this: If something were to happen to you wife (she dies in
childbirth or she ends up divorcing you anyway).....are you willing to take
on the responsibility of taking care of the child on your own? Pay support
for said child if momma runs off with the pool cleaner?
3. To play devil's advocate, there is always a possibility that you are just
afraid of the unknown. Lots of people are scared shitless at the prospect of
raising kids but once they have them, they love them and can't imagine their
life without them.
I suggest educating yourself more about raising a family.......perhaps get
some professional counseling if you can afford it. (Before my husband got
his vasectomy, I discussed this issue for several weeks with my psychiatrist
to make sure I knew what I was getting myself into.)
My vote: get snipped before you get oopsed.
I wish you luck.
Ida
"Frank Thomas" <fdo...@hushmail.com> wrote in message
news:503e2076.0106...@posting.google.com...
IleneB
Thomas <fdo...@hushmail.com> wrote:
> In any case, I'm faced with a decision now: agree to have a child, or
> face losing my wife.
This is sad, and very difficult.
I can only add my voice to what other posters have said, along the
lines of not trusting your wife regarding birth control. Not that she
isn't a wonderful person, but even wonderful people do strange things
when in extreme emotional situations. After all, if she had an
"accidental" pregnancy, would you walk out the door? No. You see how it
goes, hoping to become happier about parenthood. And you might. You
might not. So much of what you care about with your wife *will* change,
and might disappear (although there are a lot of men who just picture,
well, I'll come home from work and a kid will be here, and I'll have
more financial pressure). And a lot of men do just that much about
parenthood.
Also, as extreme as it is, imagine becoming a single parent. Or what if
the baby isn't perfectly healthy, or is much compromised? What about
your wife's health? You said she's gotten much healthier, and depending
on what the problems were, her health could be compromised. Maybe she
she's having a baby as "proof" that her health is much improved. Have
you talked to her at length about why she *does* want a kid, especially
if she didn't before? Was it health only?
Please read the responses that ask about *your* desire not to have
kids, and see if you truly don't want them *at all* or if you are
"merely" experiencing a healthy and normal ambiguity. Why did you and
your wife agree in the first place not to have kids? What changed for
her? Has anything changed for you?
Sadly, if you are really sure you don't want to be a parent, you
shouldn't "give in" to please your wife. Remember, the potential kid
has some emotional rights, in a sense. Even Doctor Phil on Oprah says
that if one half of a couple vetoes having kids, the veto carries the
day. And I'd wonder about someone who claims to love me for life but
would leave me for an experience he/she had only *thought* about.
THere isn't much support in this world for even asking these questions.
And sadly, as we've seen from a lot of other posters (all men) most
counselors or marriage therapists are incapable of seeing not having
kids as an equal decision to having them.
Wish you well. It's a very difficult position. Please keep posting.
Ilene B
Frank Thomas
> See above. Until your count is zero, you are celebate. Do not take a risk
> of being oops'd.
We have been celibate since she told me it was a child and her or not
her.
> At worst, we will be reading about you in an IDWIYO.
IDWIYO?
> Childrearing is 24/7/365 of tedium. You don't want to go
> through with it unless you really, really, really want.
Couldn't be more on my mind.
> Has your spouse thought of alternatives to childrearing? There are other
> ways to contribute to the life of children without breeding them. Schools
> need volunteers; Boys and Girls' Clubs need volunteers. There are many
> disadvantaged kids out there who lack positive adult influence. They could
> use a warm-hearted individual like your wife in their lives.
Yes, she has thought about various career and volunteer options that
would be alternatives to raising a child. She decided that she was
just taking an indirect route to/talking herself out of what she
really wants, which is to raise a child from the beginning.
> Just think about what will make you happy. Never compromise your happiness
> for another individual; you'll just end up miserable.
Impossible to argue with this. Unfortunately, my wife is a huge part
of what makes me happy. Compromise is a part of marriage and it isn't
all bad. A few years ago I would be horrified that I would write the
previous sentence. Now, I'm willing to compromise, but I don't know
about something this huge, perhaps the biggest life decision one can
make, and one involving a nonconsenting participant to boot.
Frank Thomas
> It seems your choice is clear. However, since she's the one
> who changed her mind it's really her responsibility to decide
> whether to stick with it or leave for something different.
She did make a decision. She asked me directly if I would have a kid
with her even though she knew it would "petrify" me and that I had
always said I didn't want any...
> Presumably she has your best interests in mind and won't want to
> put you in the position to make the mistake of choosing wrongly,
> against your better judgement. Nevertheless, this situation
> screams "danger!"
I feel very much in danger!
> Just don't waffle on this issue - not one tiny bit - not even for a second.
> The answer is "no" until you're absolutely 100% sure it's otherwise.
Unfortunately I have waffled already. I really, really don't want to
lose my wife, so I said I would consider whether I could change my
mind about having a child. Now I'm a mess. :(
Unknown
spake thusly:
My personal opinion, and that's all that this is, is that you should
cut your losses and break up now.
She has clearly made up her mind and so have you. You may THINK you
can "do it for her" but eventually, you will resent her for it. Then
it will be worse because you will be obligated for the rest of your
days to a child you don't want.
Parenting is a big thing that too many people do for all the wrong
reasons. Don't be one of them.
It is sad and hard and awful that you have to go through this, but you
and your wife have clearly split paths on this one. I wish you luck,
and I hope you find a CF partner in your future.
sm
Frank Thomas
> I think it's kind of cruel for someone to
> *demand* that their spouse gives them a baby. Very selfish. Me me me.
This is how I felt initially ... angry and disbelieving. However, I
realize that she is giving me a choice, not making a demand. Although
I love her dearly, she isn't forcing me to choose having a child. It
is frustrating to know that many people consider me the selfish one
for not wanting to have a child. My mother says that the only reason
for marriage is having children, and I should have expected that my
wife would want children (I did expect her to have pangs for
motherhood, as a woman, though I thought I could just be caring and it
wouldn't come to her wanting to leave if I wouldn't have children).
> Wouldn't be so bad if she took care of the child all by herself, but you
> know you are going to also have to help.............not only financially but
> with time and energy as well. Getting up at 3 AM and changing diapers when
> you have to work the next morning..........
I know, I know, I know...
> 1. Do you normally get along well with your wife? Love her a lot? (I'm
> asking this because I know of a women who wanted a child to help save her
> shaky marriage. Children are tough enough on a good marriage, they very
> rarely 'save' poor marriages.
Yes, we get along well and I love her a ton. Initally our engagement
and early marriage were difficult because frankly I wasn't comfortable
being married, I have some philosophical problems with marriage. I've
gotten over that, and our marriage and friendship have really
blossomed since. I think that is one of the reasons she really wants
to have a child now, she feels it would be an wonderful expression of
our love. For me, it would be a compromise I make to hold on to our
love.
> 2. How much do you *not* want to have a child? Some people are
> ambiguous.......while others absolutely do NOT want any. (If you know you
> are in the second category, I don't suggest going against your own values
> when it comes to something as important as bringing another life in this
> world.)
I've always considered myself to absolutely not want a child. I
simply don't like children, never did even when I was a child. In
most ways I want a simple life, and children are incredibly
complicated and risky. Still, I've been feeling deep ambivalence
lately because not having a child will mean losing my wife.
> 2. Consider this: If something were to happen to you wife (she dies in
> childbirth or she ends up divorcing you anyway).....are you willing to take
> on the responsibility of taking care of the child on your own? Pay support
> for said child if momma runs off with the pool cleaner?
I wouldn't like raising a child on my own or paying for her to raise
it one little bit, though I would. I don't know whether it is a
virtue or a flaw, but I'm very duty-oriented. I think that is part of
the reason I've never wanted children, I know that doing so is a huge
obligation, and I couldn't shirk it at all.
> 3. To play devil's advocate, there is always a possibility that you are just
> afraid of the unknown. Lots of people are scared shitless at the prospect of
> raising kids but once they have them, they love them and can't imagine their
> life without them.
Fear does play a part, but I think the much more important thing is
how I want to live my life. Anything can be recast in terms of fear,
but overdone it gives people the excuse to not take me seriously ...
I'm just scared, I'll get over it. The bigger thing is what I want
for me life. If I had a child I may well love it and not have any
regrets. Unless one's life is really horrible, one tends to become
attached to whatever choices one has made, or I tend to anyway. At
this point though, I don't know that having a child is a direction
that I want my life to go in. There may be n lives that I would enjoy
greatly, but I want to choose which of those I actually do live. I
only have one.
> I suggest educating yourself more about raising a family.......perhaps get
> some professional counseling if you can afford it. (Before my husband got
> his vasectomy, I discussed this issue for several weeks with my psychiatrist
> to make sure I knew what I was getting myself into.)
We have been going to therapy together and I've been going
individually as well. It has been calming, though I don't know if
I've really gotten any insights through therapy. I mainly have to
work stuff out myself. That is how I became ok with marriage.
Pete
fdo...@hushmail.com (Frank Thomas) wrote:
> bea...@llama.pilz.cack (bkrrrrr) wrote in message
> news:<slrn9iarg7...@kirk.colorado.edu>...
> > It seems your choice is clear. However, since she's the one
> > who changed her mind it's really her responsibility to decide
> > whether to stick with it or leave for something different.
>
> She did make a decision. She asked me directly if I would have a kid
> with her even though she knew it would "petrify" me and that I had
> always said I didn't want any...
THEN DON'T HAVE ANY!
> > Presumably she has your best interests in mind and won't want to
> > put you in the position to make the mistake of choosing wrongly,
> > against your better judgement. Nevertheless, this situation
> > screams "danger!"
>
> I feel very much in danger!
You must STOP HAVING SEX with her right this minute. It's not easy but
it is a MUST. Furthermore, your wife doesn't love you any more. Get
USED to that idea. She has gone from loving you to seeing you as a sperm
donor and wallet.
I suggest you consult a divorce attorney. If you want to be CF, you'll
be leaving soon.
> > Just don't waffle on this issue - not one tiny bit - not even for a second.
> > The answer is "no" until you're absolutely 100% sure it's otherwise.
>
> Unfortunately I have waffled already. I really, really don't want to
> lose my wife, so I said I would consider whether I could change my
> mind about having a child. Now I'm a mess. :(
STOP WAFFLING. Make a decison. Make the right decision. GROW A SPINE fer
chrissake.
*IF* you concede to breed, you were NEVER CF, merely a
breeder-in-waiting.
Being CF is like a sexual preference. You're born that way. If you are
CF, you are another species.
Why you didn't lay down the law before the wedding day remains a mystery
but the situation being what it is, your choice is clear. Make it...Pete
--
Now it's all right to let the good times roll
But try and exercise a little self-control
Biochemistry guest
> Buy your own condoms and keep them hidden.
> RUN, don't talk to the nearest drug store.
Yes, definitely don't talk to those nasty drug stores. ;*]
--
All the words after the at in my address are spelt kcab ot tnorf.
Winnie
<gentle snip>
>
> I'm thankful that my wife hasn't tricked me and gotten pregnant by
> "mistake" as I guess many women do when they want a child and the man
> is ambivalent or against the idea and hasn't gotten a vasectomy.
>
> In any case, I'm faced with a decision now: agree to have a child, or
> face losing my wife. I don't want to have a child and at some level
> think it is wrong to have a child without really, really wanting it
> (the child didn't ask to be born after all). I don't want to "lose"
> my wife (I put lose in quotes because I think we'd still be friends)
> who is really my very best friend and the love of my life, who I've
> been looking forward to growing old with.
>
> Unfortunately I CAN'T have both.
>
Ouch, Frank, you have my sympathies. Your wife however has my complete lack
of understanding - to me, to be a husband or wife is to put your partner
before all others, not threaten them with the elbow if they don't comply
with your wishes. To be blunt, I doubt she deserves you.
If you do go ahead and agree with this then you'll "lose" her anyway - once
she has a child she'll lose all interest in you except as a provider - seen
it happen so many times.
And lastly, watch out for those oopses! It may already be too late (seen
*that* happen too many times too)
Sorry to paint such a black picture - I do hope that you manage to work
something out between you...
Hugs
Winnie
Ashamed to be a female most days :o(
Salome
news:503e2076.0106...@posting.google.com...
> I think that is one of the reasons she really wants
> to have a child now, she feels it would be an wonderful expression of
> our love. For me, it would be a compromise I make to hold on to our
> love.
Both of these notions are tragically deluded. A child is neither an
"expression" of anything nor a compromise. It is a human being, with its own
needs, emotions, and personality. To see it as a symbol of something in your
relationship is to deny that personhood and create a horrible environment
for a child.
If your wife wants to express the love you two have, she will stop pushing
you to do something that could wreck three lives, and buy you a nice
Hallmark card.
> I've always considered myself to absolutely not want a child. I
> simply don't like children, never did even when I was a child. In
> most ways I want a simple life, and children are incredibly
> complicated and risky.
That seems to be a pretty strong statement of your feelings. Any child you
have will know exactly how you feel. And your life will be a living hell.
How can your wife respect and love you for who you are, if she wants you to
set aside such core feelings?
> Still, I've been feeling deep ambivalence
> lately because not having a child will mean losing my wife.
Sounds like you should try to separate your feelings about losing your wife
from your feelings about having a child.
> If I had a child I may well love it and not have any
> regrets.
And you may well hate it and yourself and your wife for the rest of your
life. I don't think a child's life is an appropriate subject for an
experiment.
> Unless one's life is really horrible, one tends to become
> attached to whatever choices one has made, or I tend to anyway.
In my experience, one adapts out of necessity to unpleasant conditions, or
one simply becomes numb, but that kind of life is never happy or fulfilling.
If you feel "attached" to that life, you are simply stuck in a rut. You're
very attached to your wife, and you're thinking of giving up part of your
own soul to stay in that rut. I advise against it.
Salome
Chris Petit
"Imajika" <ima...@dr.com> wrote in message
news:2beV6.164606$oc7.9...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com...
> Start using condoms NOW! Some women will trick you (it's been done before,
> happened to a friend of mine TWICE). They'll forget to take their pills,
> poke holes in the condom, etc. Buy your own condoms and keep them hidden.
> RUN, don't talk to the nearest drug store.
>
> -Imajika (Who is female and is ashamed of how low some women will stoop to
> have a baybeee)
I agree with Imajika. Some women who want babies will do ANYTHING to
get them, fuck the rights and wishes of their partner, fuck morality.
Having children is NOT an issue which can be compromised. You either
both want children, or it is an issue which means you must break up. It's
sad, but much less sad than paying for 18 years of child support for a kid
you did NOT want.
And, if you think your wife will be the same post baby, you are DEAD
WRONG. Breeding radically changes most women---they tend to become focused
on/obsessed with their kid, and treat the husband like the Velveteen Rabbit.
Except for his money, that is.
And, you can be 100% certain that a woman who really wants babies WILL
change like that. If she doesn't want any of the reasonable alternatives
others have mentioned to sprogging, you need to break up with her.
Chris Petit
news:<RodV6.4592$eZ6.6...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
> > See above. Until your count is zero, you are celebate. Do not take a
risk
> > of being oops'd.
>
> We have been celibate since she told me it was a child and her or not
> her.
That's good. Keep doing this so you don't get oopsed!
> > At worst, we will be reading about you in an IDWIYO.
>
> IDWIYO?
It's Different When It's Your Own. Stories of parents who killed their
babies/toddlers because they couldn't stand being parents. It DOES happen.
Why? Having children RADICALLY and PERMANENTLY changes your lifestyle. Get
used to chronic sleep deprivation, never having enough money to make ends
meet, never having time to yourself...
> > Childrearing is 24/7/365 of tedium. You don't want to go
> > through with it unless you really, really, really want.
>
> Couldn't be more on my mind.
Good. It's a serious permanent commitment.
> > Has your spouse thought of alternatives to childrearing? There are
other
> > ways to contribute to the life of children without breeding them.
Schools
> > need volunteers; Boys and Girls' Clubs need volunteers. There are many
> > disadvantaged kids out there who lack positive adult influence. They
could
> > use a warm-hearted individual like your wife in their lives.
>
> Yes, she has thought about various career and volunteer options that
> would be alternatives to raising a child. She decided that she was
> just taking an indirect route to/talking herself out of what she
> really wants, which is to raise a child from the beginning.
It sounds to me that you have no choice here, Frank. I'm sorry.
> > Just think about what will make you happy. Never compromise your
happiness
> > for another individual; you'll just end up miserable.
>
> Impossible to argue with this. Unfortunately, my wife is a huge part
> of what makes me happy. Compromise is a part of marriage and it isn't
> all bad. A few years ago I would be horrified that I would write the
> previous sentence. Now, I'm willing to compromise, but I don't know
> about something this huge, perhaps the biggest life decision one can
> make, and one involving a nonconsenting participant to boot.
In a relationship, there is healthy compromise and there is unhealthy
compromise. The difference between the two is that the healthy version does
NOT compromise your core values or things which are crucial to your life.
Healthy compromises could be the following:
* Which of 2 houses do we buy?
* Where will we spend our vacation?
* Listening to the TV softly so you don't disturb your spouse
* Changing your eating habits (to an extent)
And here is a VERY unhealthy compromise:
* Do we have children?
The reason is that having children is a lifestyle. It is clearly a
lifestyle you do NOT want. And it is one your wife wants. So, you need to
break up with her, since this "compromise" WILL result in you being very
unhappy.
Imajika
meant!!! Haha!
-Imajika
"Biochemistry guest" <bioc...@dnal.nus.ca.az> wrote in message
news:3B25C329...@dnal.nus.ca.az...
bkrrrrr
>"Ida Kern" <cloon...@mindspring.com> wrote...
>> I think it's kind of cruel for someone to
>> *demand* that their spouse gives them a baby. Very selfish. Me me me.
>
>This is how I felt initially ... angry and disbelieving. However, I
>realize that she is giving me a choice, not making a demand. Although
>I love her dearly, she isn't forcing me to choose having a child. It
>is frustrating to know that many people consider me the selfish one
>for not wanting to have a child. My mother says that the only reason
>for marriage is having children, and I should have expected that my
>wife would want children (I did expect her to have pangs for
>motherhood, as a woman, though I thought I could just be caring and it
>wouldn't come to her wanting to leave if I wouldn't have children).
Sheesh! Even worse than letting your wife steer you into a bad
decision would be letting your mother do it. Stick to your guns
and follow your conscience. You'll get through it, one way or another.
Vince Conaway
> Impossible to argue with this. Unfortunately, my wife is a huge part
> of what makes me happy. Compromise is a part of marriage and it isn't
> all bad.
We're not talking compromise here. We're talking capitulation. You *cannot* compromise on child-bearing, simply because there's no half
measure. You can't meet her halfway, she can't meet you halfway. One of you has to win. In order for both of you to win you have to
split up.
Right now you're on the defensive, and waffling hasn't helped. Your wife has put you in the spot of choosing her or a baby. My personal
suggestion is that you try and turn the tables on her - don't waffle, hem, or haw. Look her in the eye and give her the same ultimatum
back - 'it's me or a child - you choose'. Then try and discuss the fallout with her, let her know how pressured you feel, and that if you
are to change your mind on this you have to do it the way you did it with marriage - on your own and at your own pace. That'll buy you
some time. If you want you can toss in some 'would you bring a child into this world with an uncertain father' do it for the kid's sake
bullshit. Breeders eat that crap up.
-Vince
floridaNB
wrote:
>"Imajika" <ima...@dr.com> wrote in message
>news:2beV6.164606$oc7.9...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com...
>> Start using condoms NOW! Some women will trick you (it's been done before,
>> happened to a friend of mine TWICE). They'll forget to take their pills,
>> poke holes in the condom, etc. Buy your own condoms and keep them hidden.
>> RUN, don't talk to the nearest drug store.
>>
>> -Imajika (Who is female and is ashamed of how low some women will stoop to
>> have a baybeee)
>
> I agree with Imajika. Some women who want babies will do ANYTHING to
>get them, fuck the rights and wishes of their partner, fuck morality.
>
> Having children is NOT an issue which can be compromised. You either
>both want children, or it is an issue which means you must break up. It's
>sad, but much less sad than paying for 18 years of child support for a kid
>you did NOT want.
>
> And, if you think your wife will be the same post baby, you are DEAD
>WRONG.
Many men also undergo a dramatic change once they have children ...
most people are not really prepared for parenthood until they are
there themselves ... some love it.
>Breeding radically changes most women---they tend to become focused
>on/obsessed with their kid, and treat the husband like the Velveteen Rabbit.
>Except for his money, that is.
>
> And, you can be 100% certain that a woman who really wants babies WILL
>change like that. If she doesn't want any of the reasonable alternatives
>others have mentioned to sprogging, you need to break up with her.
It really depends if the man is just uncertain and apprehensive or if
he is absolutely certain he does not want children in any shape or
form. Having children to save a marriage does not work.
FloridaNB
floridaNB
wrote:
Have you considered getting into counseling to explore what motivates
your feelings about not having children? Take all precautions until
you are certain; surely she will give you time to make sure you know
what you can do ... if not, that is not a good sign.
FloridaNB
Mongo Schwartz
> Hi, I haven't ever visited alt.support.childfree before, though I
> certainly have been childfree as long as I've been aware of the issue
> (I'm 31 now). I've never had children, never wanted any, and
> generally don't like being around them. I have some affection for
> VHEMT. I'm not quite a child hater, though I've never liked children,
> even when I was one.
>
> I've been married for nearly three years. We agreed not to have
> children when we got married. Over about the last year my wife has
> slowly realized that she really wants to have one child. Now she
> really, really wants to try to have a child. She says it is so
> important to her that she would leave me if I don't agree to try.
<Rest of stuff snipped>
Frank
The first two paragraphs of your original post summed it up. If the
first statement is true (especially the "I've never had children,
never wanted any, any generally don't like being around them") then
you only have one alternative. To thine own self be true.
There are a lot of things about your initial post and your responses
that just scream "DANGER WILL ROBINSON, DANGER!!" Some people have
already talked about being oopsed, so I won't go there. But think
about this: you're not having a chiyyyuuullld. It's not a bayyybeee.
It's a human being, a person, a *life* you're dealing with. It's my
strong opinion that unless BOTH parties WANT to take the
responsibility and accept the demands of parenthood, then they SHOULD
NOT DO IT.
Secondly, how do you know she "only wants one?" She's already changed
her stance once about sprogging, what's to say she'll stop here?
Clearly, you sincerely care about her, and want to do the right thing.
But there is no middle ground here. If what you said in you initial
statement is truly how you feel, then you have no choice.
For there is no fall back. There is no compromise. There is no
middle ground. You cannot trick yourself into believing that you
demonstrated your love for her by acquiescing to her demand. If you
choose to enter parenthood, you must do so because YOU want to, not to
please her. Because YOU want to make the commitment to this new life,
not so she is happy.
I commend you on giving this such serious and thorough analysis rather
than arbitrarily jumping into parenthood. I wish more folks did this.
But you must do what's right for *you*. Then support that decision,
whether it is to become childed or to remain childfree, with all your
heart and with all your soul.
Mongo
DarthCranky
> certainly have been childfree as long as I've been aware of the issue
> (I'm 31 now). I've never had children, never wanted any, and
> generally don't like being around them. I have some affection for
> VHEMT. I'm not quite a child hater, though I've never liked children,
> even when I was one. >>>>
Well, there you go. People love to tell you it will be different when
it's your own (the IDWIYO of a few posts back. IDWIYO=it's different
when its your own), but that's not always the case. Sure, there are a
few people for whom that idiom applies and a few more who try to
convincingly fake it, but there's no 24-carat guarantee that it'll be
that way for you.
>
> I've been married for nearly three years. We agreed not to have
> children when we got married. Over about the last year my wife has
> slowly realized that she really wants to have one child. Now she
> really, really wants to try to have a child. She says it is so
> important to her that she would leave me if I don't agree to try. >>>
Wow. These kinds of stories always break my heart. I can only imagine
how betrayed you feel right now.
You mention counseling, but has she really articulated to you a reason
WHY she wants kids so bad? If she can give a reason beyond "I just
do," then maybe you'll have something to work with. If she can't, then
don't cave in to her pressure. There's always the possibility that
what she's feeling right now is temporary (temporary insanity, if you
will). Better that she realize that now than when the kid is already
here.
I feel sad for you, because it sounds to me like she's stomping all
over your feelings. I know you may not want to hear this, but she
sounds extremely selfish. Yes, I don't have the full story, but it
sounds like she's only willing to give you two choices, and both will
hurt you terribly and satisfy only her.
They call *us* selfish, but ladies and gentlemen, the above is
selfishness personified.
>
> I'm not angry at my wife for changing her mind. She's been through a
> lot and is working to be healthier every day. It is really wonderful
> watching her develop from what I considered a wonderful person into an
> even more wonderful person. Coming to the realization that she wants
> a child is part of this process, and in that way it is good. I want
> her to be true to herself.
>
> I am frustrated that she wants a child so badly that she's willing to
> leave me to pursue it, but such is life. >>>>
Perhaps you should let her leave, at least long enough for the both of
you to think. Maybe if she's given some time to spend in her own head,
she'll come back to her senses and not abandon a man who loves her and
who she (I assume) loves to chase after rainbows. If after a period of
separation she's still willing to leave the marriage over something
that doesn't even exist, then do what you need to do from there.
>
> I feel like an idiot for not having gotten a vasectomy. She's been on
> the pill since we've known each other. I have looked into getting
> snipped several times, but I've always procrastinated. About a year
> and a half ago I went to see a urologist I was referred to (with great
> objection from my general doctor). The urologist turned out to be an
> old fogey who didn't know about recent vasectomy techniques, so I
> started looking for someone else, and didn't get around to it. >>>>
Let me add my voice to the group and say get yourself snipped. Now.
And YOU direct the birth control until then. I don't imagine you're
feeling much like having sex right now and neither is she, but things
tend to happen in the heat of the moment and you need to be prepared.
I've heard enough stories here and in other CF groups to know that
women in the throes of baybee lust will stop at nothing to get some
sperm into them. I've even heard of them fishing used condoms out of
the trash and -- well, you can imagine the rest. They don't consider
the man's feelings, because they're laboring under the delusion that
"he'll love the baybee once it's here." I can't call women like this
"evil" or "bad," as I'm really beginning to suspect that rabid baybee
lust is a form of acute mental illness.
>
> In any case, I'm faced with a decision now: agree to have a child, or
> face losing my wife. I don't want to have a child and at some level
> think it is wrong to have a child without really, really wanting it
> (the child didn't ask to be born after all). I don't want to "lose"
> my wife (I put lose in quotes because I think we'd still be friends)
> who is really my very best friend and the love of my life, who I've
> been looking forward to growing old with. >>>
I'm really sorry you have to go through this. It sounds like either
choice will hurt you in one way or the other. You have to decide what
will hurt you the least. And keep in mind that if you decide to stay
with her and give her what she wants, you'll be bringing a child in
the world that is only wanted by one parent. And don't think that kid
won't know s/he wasn't wanted, because s/he will. I'm a firm believer
that "he'll love the baybee once it's here" is a load of hooey that
applies to only a few oopsed men. You'll be playing Russian Roulette.
Best of luck to you, Frank, and please keep us posted. We may seem
like a bunch of meanies, but we're more than willing to offer support
where it's needed. That's what this group is for.
>
> If you feel a need to flame me, go right ahead, I don't mind. >>>
No flames here, my man. "Support" is this newsgroup's middle name.
Peace,
Cassie
pboae
6kats wrote in message <9g56dr$71248$1...@ID-72098.news.dfncis.de>...
>x-no-archive: yes
>"floridaNB" wrote:
>
>> Many men also undergo a dramatic change once they have children ...
>> most people are not really prepared for parenthood until they are
>> there themselves ... some love it.
>
<snip>
>. "Oh, once he sees the baby, he'll feel differently." Well, what if
>he doesn't?
This argument reminds me of a conversation my DH once had. He is *desperate*
to try parachuting, but he is a big bloke, currently weighs in at around 220
pounds. He tried to arrange a trip once and was told, 'the 'chutes are only
designed to take 200 pounds, but you'll probably be OK'. Funnily enough he
didn't jump.
There are some occasions when probably just isn't good enough. But it's much
easier to pretend it is when it's not *your* life that's going to be ruined
by the consequences.
IleneB
<florid...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Have you considered getting into counseling to explore what motivates
> your feelings about not having children?
Has your wife considered counseling to see why she first didn't want
children, and now feels she does?
Ilene B
Childfree Scott
stupid, don't listen to her. If your wife has to have a kid then your
better off without her. If you do cave in you'll be sorry at some
future point in time. The wife will become totally obsessed with the
kid and you'll feel like a sperm bank and wallet, and eventually
divorce over it and end up alone and paying big bucks for child
support, then how will you feel?
IleneB
> Unfortunately, my wife is a huge part
> of what makes me happy.
Well, I suspect is she has a kid that you don't want, a huge part of
what makes you happy with your wife will be history.
Ilene B
Diana Gregory
>Hi, I haven't ever visited alt.support.childfree before, though I
>certainly have been childfree as long as I've been aware of the issue
>(I'm 31 now). I've never had children, never wanted any, and
>generally don't like being around them. I have some affection for
>VHEMT. I'm not quite a child hater, though I've never liked children,
>even when I was one.
>
>children when we got married. Over about the last year my wife has
>slowly realized that she really wants to have one child. Now she
>really, really wants to try to have a child. She says it is so
>important to her that she would leave me if I don't agree to try.
(snip rest)
Frank - unless you are willing to ruin *your* life by doing
something you do not want to do - and that she *agreed* to -
let her go. There *is* no compromise on this issue. Any time
you are talking about a living creature - there is no compromise.
That goes for cats, fish, dogs, lizards - and children.
You either have them, or you do not have them.
A compromise is what you do with the size, shape, color, texture,
etc., of a sofa; or how far away from your job you live - all of
it deals with inanimate objects and actions.
Once you have the child, you can never go back.
If you are serious at all - get the vasectomy, and tell her that
*you* will not compromise on this - she made the agreement, and
if she will not honor it, then you are sorry but she will have to
leave.
Diana
Diana Gregory
>> I feel like an idiot for not having gotten a vasectomy.
>
>you a reference to a skilled surgeon who will respect your decision.
Agreed.
>> I'm thankful that my wife hasn't tricked me and gotten pregnant by
>> "mistake" as I guess many women do when they want a child and the man
>> is ambivalent or against the idea and hasn't gotten a vasectomy.
>
>See above. Until your count is zero, you are celebate. Do not take a risk
>of being oops'd. Women will lie about taking the pill; poke holes in
>condoms, etc. Do not become one of those sad stories we often read in
>Salon.
And double-agreed
>> In any case, I'm faced with a decision now: agree to have a child, or
>> face losing my wife. I don't want to have a child and at some level
>> think it is wrong to have a child without really, really wanting it
>
>Damn straight it is wrong. It is not fair for a kid to grow up with an
>absent parent who despises their existence. At best, you will be the
>ambivalent parent who goes through the motions with little enjoyment. Your
>kid will sense that and feel inadequate. At worst, we will be reading about
>you in an IDWIYO. There are a few people here who remember one parent
>wanting them and the other wanting nothing to do with them. I can not
>relate to how they felt but I can assure you they did not feel they received
>all the love they deserved. .
And I can add to this. My SO was the first adopted by his parents.
His mom was infertile - his dad would have been happy not to have
kids, but she wanted them, so they adopted 4.
My SO is emotionally messed up - his dad sort of cares that he's
there - but only when he hasn't seen him for a while. If he spends
time with his dad, very quickly his dad will make him feel he is in
the way - but he keeps trying to get his dad to 'like' him - still
in his 40's (I know - but I can't change a lifetime of habit).
His dad was one of those who went through the motions. The other
kids have figured out that it's best to stay away.
Diana
Melia
On 11 Jun 2001, Frank Thomas wrote:
[...]
> I've been married for nearly three years. We agreed not to have
> children when we got married. Over about the last year my wife has
> slowly realized that she really wants to have one child. Now she
> really, really wants to try to have a child. She says it is so
> important to her that she would leave me if I don't agree to try.
[...]
> I'm not angry at my wife for changing her mind. She's been through a
> lot and is working to be healthier every day. It is really wonderful
> watching her develop from what I considered a wonderful person into an
> even more wonderful person. Coming to the realization that she wants
> a child is part of this process, and in that way it is good. I want
> her to be true to herself.
>
> I am frustrated that she wants a child so badly that she's willing to
> leave me to pursue it, but such is life.
>
> I feel like an idiot for not having gotten a vasectomy. [...]
Hi, Frank.
No flame here. You're obviously a bit torn up about this. You and your
wife seem to genuinely love and respect eachother, or it's likely she
would have "ooops"-ed you first, then come to you later to discuss it,
thereby removing your chance to have a say in the matter.
My husband and I have been married for about two years, together for over
5. I was unsure for a long time whether I wanted kids, but he was sure of
what he wanted...none. He's been burned before by someone who made it
almost to the altar then announced that she wanted kids after all, so this
was a big issue to him. I decided long ago that our realtionship was worth
more than the possibility of maybe, someday, possibly, meeting someone
with whom I would want children, so I agreed, unreservedly. Over time, as
our lives have grown to include extensive travel together, spontaneous
camping trips, long weekends in bed or spent gardening or cooking
together, I have grown to agree with him entirely. Our lives are full
without children. We are happily childfree, and more in love than ever. It
works for us, but it may not work for everyone. In fact, I was the one who
encouraged him to "get snipped" before we even married, since I wanted to
remove any doubt he had about the sincerity of my commitment to him and to
our lives together. Shortly thereafter, we made it official, and promptly
began reaping the benefits of a childfree life.
To get the experience with children that I enjoy, I volunteer with a
residential facility for children whose families were damaged by
alcoholism or drug addiction by their parents. As a former teacher, this
is a great opportunity for me to exercise my nurturing side (with someone
other than our many pets) and to actually make a difference for a child
whose own parents were never prepared to really make the necessary
commitment to the responsibility of children. I've seen too much of that
already, particularly as a teacher.
That said, you know my immediate perspective on this. Now, as for your
situation...
You love your wife. That makes this situation very difficult, and I am
sure it's difficult for her too, but if the situation has come down to
children or no children, with no room for compromise in that
(i.e. volunteer work like I do), then you're right: she will probably
leave you, and you will probably have a great friend in her. An issue as
life-changing as having children is not one into which you should be
forced by the fear of losing someone. You sound as if you have given a lot
of thought to whether it's something you should do, and your decision
sounds like the right one for you, as it was for my husband and myself. I
am sorry that your wife can't feel the same way, as I am sure many would
be sorry about your feelings. The bottom line is that the people who would
tell you to have a child "and you'll grow to love it" may be right, but
they don't hav to deal with the consequences either way.
In the long run, if you gave in on this, the chances are that you would
not be together further down the road anyway, and then you would be
unlikely to even have the friendship that now seems like a given. I can't
imagine a sacrifice in something that's so BIG would ever be really in the
past, since it would be one of which you would be reminded on a daily
basis. THe child would likely suffer, and your wife would suffer, and you
would obviously suffer even more than you may now.
No easy answers except "don't do it." Good luck, Frank.
Kent
: My suggestion is that you try and turn the tables on her - don't waffle,
: hem, or haw. Look her in the eye and give her the same ultimatum back-
: 'it's me or a child - you choose'. Then try and discuss the fallout
: with her, let her know how pressured you feel, and that if you are to
: change your mind on this you have to do it the way you did it with
: marriage - on your own and at your own pace.
Agreed. It make even require a trial separation, after which she may
reconsider her priorities--or not, but at least you'd be free from
undesired fatherhood.
Sorry, but as others have said, there is NO compromise on this (how can
you?). It might pain you to lose your wife, but there is at least the
POSSIBILITY of finding another wife in this life; once you're a father,
there is NO possibility of returning to childfreedom.
Kent
Kent
: Have you considered getting into counseling to explore what motivates
: your feelings about not having children? Take all precautions until
: you are certain; surely she will give you time to make sure you know
: what you can do ... if not, that is not a good sign.
Why is the onus on HIM? Why can't SHE get counseling as to why she'd want
to sabotage a marriage, after promising that she was NOT interested in
reproducing, all of a sudden just to have kids? Parenthood is NOT the
"default" and SHE is the one who's changed her mind.
Kent
floridaNB
<youshould...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>x-no-archive: yes
>"floridaNB" wrote:
>
>> Many men also undergo a dramatic change once they have children ...
>> most people are not really prepared for parenthood until they are
>> there themselves ... some love it.
>
>That's a crap shoot. "Some love it." What about the others that don't??
>Isn't it quite selfish to subject a child to this lottery? Every child
>should be wanted and loved.
At least these folks are talking about whether to have a child and
trying to determine if they will make suitable parents ... that gives
them a big leg up on folks who just do it with no thought.
I know people who were certain they wanted children and were certain
they would love it ... who, once faced with the reality of what having
a child meant, decided they did not like it at all.
Parenthood really is a crap shoot ... stay away if you are certain you
don't want it but unfortunately, being certain you do want it is no
guarantee of anything ... and I am talking about both men and women.
>Unfortunately, too many cases of children
>abused and even killed by the hand of their own mother or father attest to
>the fact that the enormous step into parenthood is many times taken way too
>lightly. "Oh, once he sees the baby, he'll feel differently." Well, what if
>he doesn't?
I didn't say that ...
>One of the main problems in the country today, I believe, is that a lot of
>people are having children without being emotionally or financially prepared
>to deal with raising another human being.
This is a new problem or one restricted just to this country? Seems
to me this problem has been around as long as humans have walked the
earth.
FloridaNB
Frank Thomas
> You must STOP HAVING SEX with her right this minute. It's not easy but
> it is a MUST.
As I mentioned previously, we've been celibate, though it never
occurred to me that her getting pregnant by "mistake" or "oopsing" as
people here seem to like to call the phenomenon until she mentioned
recently that I should be thankful she wasn't that sort of person.
From my perspective, we haven't had sex because I just find it too
emotionally intense when there are bad things going on between us.
For me sex isn't a way to make things better, it's icing on the cake
when things are already going well.
> Furthermore, your wife doesn't love you any more. Get
> USED to that idea. She has gone from loving you to seeing you as a sperm
> donor and wallet.
I'm 101% certain that my wife does still love me.
> Being CF is like a sexual preference. You're born that way. If you are
> CF, you are another species.
I'm skeptical about that. For many people even sexual preference is
filled with ambiguity.
> Why you didn't lay down the law before the wedding day remains a mystery
> but the situation being what it is, your choice is clear. Make it...Pete
We did agree to not have kids before we got married. Minds change,
unfortunately in this case.
I'm normally an extremely rational person. Many people accuse me of
being robot-like, though I don't see it that way. I have a mostly
hidden sentimental/unreconstructed romantic side, and for this I must
consider "choosing love", meaning doing what I need to do to stay with
the love of my life versus making the choice to not have a child that
I know seems obvious to an outside observer.
See, if I weren't going crazy with this I would never have posted!
Thanks...
floridaNB
>In article <3b2614ac...@news.mindspring.com>,
>florid...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>> Have you considered getting into counseling to explore what motivates
>> your feelings about not having children? Take all precautions until
>> you are certain; surely she will give you time to make sure you know
>> what you can do ... if not, that is not a good sign.
>
>I think "I don't want children" is a perfectly fine motivation and not
>something that warrants a therapist's involvement. That suggests there is
>something wrong with not wanting children - there isn't.
"I think I don't want children" is NOT the same statement as "I KNOW I
don't want children"
Those who elect to remain childless are in no way broken ...there is
nothing wrong with them. See, we agree on this Jenni.
However since his marriage is in jeopardy and since he used the word
"think" then it does seem like something to explore to be certain.
>I'll also add that *no one* should have children unless they are
>absolutely 100% committed to the idea of raising them to adulthood. It's a
>challenging enough job without being ambivalent about it in the first
>place.
>
>To the original poster: Don't do it unless you are certain being a parent
>is how you want to spend the next 20-odd years. Parenthood shouldn't ever
>be entered into because one feels coerced, whether by "society" or one's
>own spouse. Take complete control of your reproduction, too - given your
>wife's baby lust, relying on her to handle contraception doesn't sound
>like a good idea right now.
>
>Jenni
>[posted from asm]
FloridaNB, also posting from asm
floridaNB
<youshould...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>x-no-archive: yes
>"floridaNB" wrote:
>
>> Have you considered getting into counseling to explore what motivates
>> your feelings about not having children?
>
>I have to say this offended me. Why would someone need counseling to
>explore why they *don't* want children? You make it sound like it's a
>disease.
Perhaps you are too easily offended.
The original poster wants to save his marriage if he can ... unless he
is absolutely certain of what he wants, how can he do that? If he
knew for sure, he would not be posting here, would he?
>How about the other way around? I think it would make much more sense for
>the wife to really explore why she *wants* children. Especially in this day
>and age and considering her previous agreement with her husband not to have
>kids.
Yes, there is no exclusion for her ... she is trying to change the
deal in mid-stream. She too should decide what is more important,
dumping her marriage and finding a new partner so she can have a child
or staying in a loving but childless relationship.
Neither option is superior over the other as long as both partners
mutually agree on what they will do.
FloridaNB
Frank Thomas
> Ouch, Frank, you have my sympathies. Your wife however has my complete lack
> of understanding - to me, to be a husband or wife is to put your partner
> before all others, not threaten them with the elbow if they don't comply
> with your wishes. To be blunt, I doubt she deserves you.
She does deserve me, or better. Yeah, there's a chance that I'm only
being blinded by love, but I really do think she is an extraordinary
person even discounting my love. Cue some idiotic pop song about
one-in-a-million (surely such a song exists).
I don't think that being a husband/wife is to put your parter before
all others. You still need to put yourself first, or your partner
gets a less than full person anyway. Deciding where to draw the line
between compromise and putting yourself first is a tough one. I
shouldn't be using the third person here, as that's the situation I'm
in.
> Ashamed to be a female most days :o(
Don't be. Most men are idiots too. Perhaps be ashamed to be human.
We're vicious beasts.
Dreamspinner3
potentional child to have a kid to satisfy your wife when you don't want one
yourself. Nor would it be fair to your wife for her to NOT fulfill her
desire to have a child just to keep you happy in your marriage. She has
already given you a clear-cut message: having a child is so important to me
that I'd be willing to end our marriage if you don't go along with it. A
child is more important to her than you and your marriage, period.
This is NOT a subject you can compromise on, either. If you cave in to her
demands and have a child, you'll be unhappy. If she caves in & doesn't have
a child and stays with you, she'll be unhappy. A child shouldn't be brought
into the world unless both parents want it, IMHO. It isn't fair to the kid
otherwise and they would end up suffering the most.
So I would say let your wife so that she can find someone who wants children
and that she can be happy with. Let yourself go to find someone who doesn't
want kids that you can be happy with. Get yourself snipped too so that you
can't be ooopsed into fatherhood in the future, too. Do not have sex with
your wife now, either, without making sure you use protection you're sure
of. She could trick you into a baby.
Good luck.
"Frank Thomas" <fdo...@hushmail.com> wrote in message
news:503e2076.0106...@posting.google.com...
> Unfortunately I CAN'T have both.
Frank Thomas
> Right now you're on the defensive, and waffling hasn't helped.
I know.
> Your wife has put you in the spot of choosing her or a baby. My personal
> suggestion is that you try and turn the tables on her - don't waffle, hem, or haw. Look her in the eye and give her the same ultimatum
> back - 'it's me or a child - you choose'. Then try and discuss the fallout with her, let her know how pressured you feel, and that if you
> are to change your mind on this you have to do it the way you did it with marriage - on your own and at your own pace. That'll buy you
> some time. If you want you can toss in some 'would you bring a child into this world with an uncertain father' do it for the kid's sake
> bullshit. Breeders eat that crap up.
We've had all of these discussions, and she's been more than patient.
I have to decide NOW.
Melia
On Tue, 12 Jun 2001, 6kats wrote:
> x-no-archive: yes
> One of the main problems in the country today, I believe, is that a lot of
> people are having children without being emotionally or financially prepared
> to deal with raising another human being.
Even though he had children, George Bernard Shaw expressed the belief that
less than 10% of the population was actually prepared to make these
sacrifices (looked at the divorce rate in te US recently, anyone?).
Renee
Well put. And absolutely correct.
And here's something I've said to another person who was having this
problem: Your wife is willing to ditch you for someone she hasn't
even met yet. A *hypothetical* other person (in this case, a child) is
more important to her than you are. Unless she's totally delusional,
she knows that child could be disabled, could have a mental illness,
could love everything she hates or hate everything she loves, could
resent her for bearing the burden of your wife's happiness, or any
number of other things. Despite all that, YOU are less important to
her than what amounts to a random stranger of unknown values and
personality.
Now, how does *that* make you feel?
Renee
Renee
<cloon...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>1. Do you normally get along well with your wife? Love her a lot? (I'm
>asking this because I know of a women who wanted a child to help save her
>shaky marriage. Children are tough enough on a good marriage, they very
>rarely 'save' poor marriages.
If this woman is willing to leave her husband to find a sperm donor,
then the marriage is *not* as strong and good as either of them may
think.
If this man capitulates, it will be as an attempt to "save" the
marriage - after all, she has given him an ultimatum. I don't see it
working.
What's more, I don't see it as fair to the child. IMO, every single
child deserves two parents who desperately want it. "Ehh, what the
heck, I love my wife, maybe I'll like the kid" is NOT enough. No child
should be subjected to a parent who is ambivalent or resentful - which
are perfectly likely outcomes to a lottery like this.
Why is it that I dislike kids, but *still* seem to have more respect
for them than many breeders? It baffles me.
Renee
mrfea...@aol.com
>
>Columbine, anyone? I don't read of babies being left in their car seats in
>other countries.
>
>6
No, but that's at least as likely to be a function of what's reported in the
news as it is an indication that it doesn't happen. Most likely a Lil Sizzler
in Texas isn't in the paper in Lyons, either, if you see what I mean.
Mary
Pete
fdo...@hushmail.com (Frank Thomas) wrote:
> Pete <sl...@jgnvfjhff.com> wrote in message
> news:<slia-A95052.2...@news.newsguy.com>...
> > Furthermore, your wife doesn't love you any more. Get
> > USED to that idea. She has gone from loving you to seeing you as a sperm
> > donor and wallet.
>
> I'm 101% certain that my wife does still love me.
You are in denial. Look at the situation. She gave you an ultimatum. "me
and baby or nothing." Clearly something is more important to her than
you are. Is that love? I see it as manipulation, arm-twisting and a
shining beacon that indeed, she no longer loves you. When her mind
changed about baby, it also changed about YOU.
I ask you to set aside your emotions and look at the logic of this
situation. She is going to leave you if you say "no" to children. Is
that love? I say no. I say you are in denial about it.
> > Being CF is like a sexual preference. You're born that way. If you are
> > CF, you are another species.
>
> I'm skeptical about that. For many people even sexual preference is
> filled with ambiguity.
You have stated you don't like kids, you don't want kids and you don't
like being around kids. Doesn't sound very fucking ambiguous to me.
> > Why you didn't lay down the law before the wedding day remains a mystery
> > but the situation being what it is, your choice is clear. Make it...Pete
>
> We did agree to not have kids before we got married. Minds change,
> unfortunately in this case.
More to the point, she decided situational ethics applied and that you
were not as important to her as she previously had indicated. Minds
change, my ass. She made an agreement. She now believes it's OK to
unilaterally change the agreement. I say again, she no longer loves you.
She wants to use you as a sperm donor and wallet.
> I'm normally an extremely rational person. Many people accuse me of
> being robot-like, though I don't see it that way. I have a mostly
> hidden sentimental/unreconstructed romantic side, and for this I must
> consider "choosing love", meaning doing what I need to do to stay with
> the love of my life versus making the choice to not have a child that
> I know seems obvious to an outside observer.
Depends, very simply, on whether you want to ***RUIN YOUR LIFE!***
I ask you this: if you are *forced* to breed with this woman, do you
really believe you will not resent her for saddling you with that which
you never wanted? Do you believe you're so altruistic that you won't
resent going from #1 in her life to #27 (soccer, PTA and other such
things will ALL take priority over YOU)? Do you believe your resentment
will not be perceived by the child and therefore, harm the child?
If you do, again you're in denial.
> See, if I weren't going crazy with this I would never have posted!
If you have that kid, it'll be proof that the verb tense is wrong.
This is a trainwreck waiting to happen. Bail now. If you don't, you are
a fool...Pete
--
Now it's all right to let the good times roll
But try and exercise a little self-control
floridaNB
Elsewhere I tried to correct that omission ... both of them need to
examine their positions and what motivates those feelings. If they
both are certain and remain apart, it looks like the marriage will
have to end given her ultimatum.
FloridaNB
IleneB
Thomas <fdo...@hushmail.com> wrote:
> I'm skeptical about that. For many people even sexual preference is
> filled with ambiguity.
In my observation, people come to lead a childfree life via many
avenues. There are some of us who have "always felt that way" and there
are others who arrive at the conclusion or happily end up in that
position.
It sounds like Frank is one of those who was "born that way," as his CF
feelings seem deep-rooted and not at all ambiguous. His only ambiguity
seems to be ("merely") the done deal his wife is presenting him with,
to see her leave or not. I think he should prepare to watch her go,
with every sadness and regret.
Ilene B
IleneB
> We did agree to not have kids before we got married. Minds change,
> unfortunately in this case.
Frank, would you have married your wife is she stated she wanted kids
or was undecided, as much as you loved her and were happy with her?
Ilene b
Dreamspinner3
"Just think about what will make you happy. Never compromise your happiness
for another individual; you'll just end up miserable."
Frank Thomas" <fdo...@hushmail.com> wrote in message
news:503e2076.0106...@posting.google.com...
> Impossible to argue with this. Unfortunately, my wife is a huge part of
what makes me happy.
The person she she WAS before she announced her desire to have a child made
you happy. Is she making you happy now? Right now you're not having sex
with her. She has told you that a child is more important than her marriage
to you and that if you don't go along with her desire to have a child,
she'll leave you.
> Compromise is a part of marriage and it isn't all bad.
That is true for almost all issues. But you CAN'T compromise on having a
child. You either have one or you don't. Once you have one, that's it.
You're responsible for that child until they reach an age where they can
take care of themselves!
> A few years ago I would be horrified that I would write the previous
sentence. Now, I'm willing to compromise, but I don't know about something
this huge, perhaps the biggest life decision one can make,
It is the biggest decision you make make and one you cannot compromise on.
> and one involving a nonconsenting participant to boot.
That's right.
Noelle
I've been where you are, but I had the good fortune to discover the
incompatibility before I got married. I broke up with a fiance because he
wanted, very much, to have children, and although I had yet to hear the term
"childfree" or even know that there was such a concept, I knew, even at the
age of 19 (you and I are the same age) that I didn't want to be pushed into
anything. The ex-fiance went on to get married and have two kids, and the
last time I heard from him, his emails have a creepy "please kill me now"
quality if you read between the desperately cheerful lines. Meanwhile, I'm
married to a great childfree guy, and couldn't be happier (and if we ever
get his insurance straightened out, he's getting snipped).
Frank, you don't want to be in his shoes, and that's what I predict for you.
Sadly, it doesn't look good. You have JUST as much right to be childfree as
your wife has to want children (although I have to give her major credit for
being willing to adopt), and either way, one of you will get what you want,
and one will lose. It is hard for marriages to survive that kind of
resentment.
My advice to you is first of all, please keep posting here. Please let us
know how it's going. I agree with the others who say that you should not
have unprotected sex with her. I hope that your wife wouldn't "oops" you,
but can you really afford to take that chance?
I hope that you can work this out, but honestly I don't think the chances
are great. Whatever happens (excluding your becoming a father), you can find
support and encouragement here. It's a hard place you're in. I know. The
best of luck to you.
--
We are a race of musical liars, and who you are may depend on who's singing
your song.
--Parke Godwin
http://www.fastlane.net/~gnoelle
Dreamspinner3
suggest his wife get into counseling to find out why she wants them?
"floridaNB" <florid...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3b2614ac...@news.mindspring.com...
> Have you considered getting into counseling to explore what motivates
> your feelings about not having children? Take all precautions until
> you are certain; surely she will give you time to make sure you know
> what you can do ... if not, that is not a good sign.
>
> FloridaNB
>
KDWilson
>
> In any case, I'm faced with a decision now: agree to have a child, or
> face losing my wife. I don't want to have a child and at some level
> think it is wrong to have a child without really, really wanting it
> my wife (I put lose in quotes because I think we'd still be friends)
> who is really my very best friend and the love of my life, who I've
> been looking forward to growing old with.
You are in a very tough situation.
But please realize that whichever way you decide, someone will be
unhappy. Either your wife will resent you for not changing your mind
and having a child, or you will resent her and the child for changing
your life. There is unfortunately no "compromise" on this subject -
one of you will "win" and the other will resent it.
While your wife is your best friend now, this will change regardless
of your decision. If you break down and have a child with her, she
will no longer have the time, energy, or inclination to be your best
friend - she will spend most of her attention on the child. If you
don't have the child, she will look for someone else to have a child
with, and you will still lose your best friend.
This is a no-win situation for both of you. There's no reason not to
continue being friends, but as a couple, I think you have little
chance of making it - the resentment will cause a rift between you
that has no chance of being patched up.
Good luck.
Karen
Dreamspinner3
> However, I realize that she is giving me a choice, not making a demand.
Although I love her dearly, she isn't forcing me to choose having a child.
How can you say that? Frank, I took this directly from your original post:
"We agreed not to have children when we got married. Over about the last
year my wife has slowly realized that she really wants to have one child.
Now she really, really wants to try to have a child. She says it is so
important to her that she would leave me if I don't agree to try."
She is NOT giving you a choice, she is giving you an ultimatem.
>It is frustrating to know that many people consider me the selfish one for
not wanting to have a child.
Fuck them. Who cares what other people think.
> My mother says that the only reason for marriage is having children, and
I should have expected that my wife would want children
Fuck what your mother thinks. Her reasoning sounds like something from the
Dark Ages. Your mother is wrong because I am a married woman and I do NOT
want children.
>(I did expect her to have pangs for motherhood, as a woman, though I
thought I could just be caring and it wouldn't come to her wanting to leave
if I wouldn't have children).
People change, as you wife proves.
Ananayel
I've been back in lurk mode for a while now, due to some work issues, but I
felt I had to chime in on this thread.
I must agree wholeheartedly with all of the posters--you simply cannot
compromise on this issue. I'm with Pete on this one. You are indeed in denial.
You may love your wife dearly, but I assure you, the relationship you had, or
thought you had, ended the moment she presented you with the "have a baby with
me or I am leaving you" ultimatum. That is underhanded emotional blackmail in
its purest form, and if you were watching this situation happen to someone else
I'm sure that would be clear as day to you. And if it works in this case, she
will try it again and again-second child, relocating for schools, work, etc.
You said you were philosophically opposed to marriage--did you agree to get
married for her? If so, she already has evidence that this kind of behavior
gets the results she wants.
Right now, you are clinging to memories and hopes of the way your relationship
was and what you hoped it would be. It is not that way anymore, and it is
better for all concerned for you to go your separate ways and remain close
friends with your wife. There are women out there who are 150% certain they
will not be having children, and I am sure you will find one to share your life
with. It sounds as though you have had a hard time forming and sustaining
relationships, and now that you have one that has made you happy (until
recently), you would rather go through all this than take the chance of not
having another one. Whether or not this is the outcome is completely up to you.
Yes it's hard, but will it be harder than at least 18 years of complete
responsibility and a lifetime of emotional responsibility for a child you were
not completely committed to bringing into the world?
I don't mean to suggest in any way that your wife is a bad person. No human is
perfect, and we all do things to try and bring about outcomes that conform to
our desires, sometimes at the expense of others, whether knowingly or not.
Perhaps she should not have made the "no kids" agreement--maybe she was not
entirely sure, and felt that she would lose you if she did not agree, and this
is the result. Nonetheless, you had an agreement, and either you are both
committed to this agreement or you must do what is best for both of you and for
the potential child, and separate. The misery, resentment, loss of respect for
your wife, and almost certain emotional trauma for the child(ren) are not worth
hanging onto the shreds of a relationship that had evaporated with the
ultimatum.
I fear a backlash--that you will read all these posts, but still be in such
denial that it will become a point of pride with you to hang onto the marriage
at any cost, just to show that your wife is *that* important to you., bugger
the consequences. Please step outside your emotions, and look at this situation
as if it is happening to someone else, a friend you also love and respect who
is in your shoes. What would you tell him? Well, do that.
I wish you luck, and I hope you are able to resolve this soon.
Just my opinion, now back to lurking.
Ananayel
Remove trousers to contact me
bkrrrrr
>
>She is NOT giving you a choice, she is giving you an ultimatem.
They're pretty much the same thing, in this case.
--
> bkrrrrr bkr@!purge!.lmtgtm.org :) :) \/ |\ _,,,---,,_ :) <
> CF++;TK++;TPI+++;A++;VF++;(v2.0) /\ PRrrr /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ <
> "I went to cyberspace and all I \/ |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' <
> got was this stupid .sig" - Anonymous /\ '---''(_/--' `-'\_) fL <
Unknown
spake thusly:
>Pete <sl...@jgnvfjhff.com> wrote in message news:<slia-A95052.2...@news.newsguy.com>...
>> You must STOP HAVING SEX with her right this minute. It's not easy but
>> it is a MUST.
>
>As I mentioned previously, we've been celibate, though it never
>occurred to me that her getting pregnant by "mistake" or "oopsing" as
>people here seem to like to call the phenomenon until she mentioned
>recently that I should be thankful she wasn't that sort of person.
>From my perspective, we haven't had sex because I just find it too
>emotionally intense when there are bad things going on between us.
>For me sex isn't a way to make things better, it's icing on the cake
>when things are already going well.
>
>> Furthermore, your wife doesn't love you any more. Get
>> USED to that idea. She has gone from loving you to seeing you as a sperm
>> donor and wallet.
>
>I'm 101% certain that my wife does still love me.
>
Ok I'm sorry to say I have to disagree. If someone loves you they
don't use emotional blackmail to get what they want from you.
Yes I'm sure she SAYS she still loves you and I'm sure she has
feelings for you but whatever it was you had before is gone. It's
over. It's now Her Quest To Have A Baby, and you. You are not so much
a partner as an obstacle. Someone she has to win to her way to
continue the path she has chosen for herself. Say yes and you get to
continue playing, say no and she's off to find someone who will follow
the script she's laid out for herself.
She's holding what you HAD together over you like a carrot. Face it my
friend, whatever that was is gone, now that the all consuming babee
rabies have infected her brain.
Unless she has some kind of revelation and comes back to her senses,
she's no longer the person you married.
She hasn't left YET because she probably thinks she can win you over,
that and the fact that it's just easier to wait for you than have to
go out and find someone to donate the sperm and the paycheque she's
looking for.
I am not trying to be cruel, just objective.
You said your wife has even said that if you say no, she's going to
have a baby anyway, without you, yes? Or did I read that wrong?
I would say that's pretty clear, wouldn't you?
No matter what else she says, that's the most important thing. You
already know where you stand in her future. It's up to you to realize
that it's time to move on.
You don't want kids, but you're asking if you should say yes. There's
no question. You don't want kids, she does, it's incompatible.
Say no, say goodbye.
It's not easy, but it's really the only solution.
Sm
IC
Frank,
Sorry for the long post, hopefully some of this will be helpful to
you.
Your story and the responses to your post have been a great help to me
in my own life (you'll see why later in this reply).
This decision has to be yours alone, because you alone would have live
your life as the “Dad” and if you don't want a child, that
child will KNOW IT. If your wife is the 100% perfect "Mom" it still
won't change the fact that you were forced/blackmailed into being a
parent and you will resent it.
Admitting that you are CF and being OK with it is not easy, especially
since you are married and are facing such a difficult situation. All
the “society” pressure and stigma of possibly losing your
spouse is just making everything more difficult for you right now.
Try to separate the “baby issue” from the “marriage
over issue”. Try to picture your life with both scenarios (1.
married, but with a child you didn’t want or 2. single). Try to
live both lives in your mind and be brutally honest with yourself if
you can. Reality will be brutally honest, so if you can prepare
yourself by imagining it and even going through some of the painful
process in your head it might make things more clear as far as what is
acceptable to you.
Here is my story:
I am in the same (almost same) predicament as you, so I know where you
are coming from.
I have been married for 11 yrs and together with DH for 17yrs and a
few years ago he starting getting baby rabies. He knew how I felt (no
kids!) all along –(college, before we got married, all during
our marriage). In the past his comments regarding children were more
in general terms and he had "mild cases" of baby rabies. I never
wanted kids but assumed I’d have to change my mind someday (off
in the distant future, dreading the thought) and never realized I
could choose to be CF forever. He admits to enjoying the CF life we
have, he NOW feels he would be missing out on something if he doesn't
have his own child. (In the past- when mild baby rabies attacks
occured my reactions were: becoming upset, long arguments against,
waiting it out as he always managed to get over his feelings, so I
continued to put off dealing with the issue.
I turned 35 this year and SUDDENLY his baby rabies have worsened and I
don’t think we can put off dealing with the problem any longer.
So I am preparing myself for a major
confrontation/conflict/disaster…UGGGHHH … what a nasty
place to be!
His feelings on the subject haven’t been quite as strong as your
wife’s. But maybe its just a matter of time?
Lately I am living in stressed state, it's wearing me out both
mentally and physically. The constant fear of the
“ultimatum” is aweful. I am trying to come to terms with
confronting him, making my wishes 100% clear and finding the best way
to convince him – (i.e. presenting the CF choice in a positive
way).
The final choice is his (meaning I will have to give him the
ultimatum), I am not tricking him in a any way and he is a very smart
person who is capable of knowing what is right for him. I don’t
actually know any CF people to use as a good example that he will buy.
Not sure how to convince DH that it's OK to choose not to have a
child or convince him that he will not regret it someday. I don't even
know if that is true for him, I only know what is true for me. No
regrets, EVER!
I guess I just hate the lack of control and not being able to make
both of us happy. I can not beleive our wonderful relationship could
fall apart over this?
Until I found this group I couldn’t get any support at all. I
couldn’t discuss this issue w/ family as I didn’t want
them meddling in our marriage problems. What friends we still have
left (lost a lot of them due to them sprogging or us moving a few
years ago), but friends we have are either:
1. divorced,
2. single/desperate to get married (want kids)
3. have kids already so they wouldn’t understand CF choice.
4. have infertility problems and are desperate for a kid (so see #3).
I even went to a therapist over this - because I really felt there was
something wrong with me. Everyone just told me I would change my mind
and that was making me “depressed” because I totally
Dreaded that DAY. The constant conflict I inflicted on myself for not
being able to -- just change my mind on having kids for the person who
is my best friend, my soulmate and who would probably make a great dad
and my negative thoughts on the entire "baby idea" were driving me
nuts.
My therapist told me “I was one of the most well adjusted women
she had seen in a long time. My ability to analyze and process my own
feelings should help keep me well grounded. She helped me realize I
am not doing myself any favors in beating myself up over this
conflict. I shouldn’t spend the rest of my life trying to
make everyone else happy, while being secretly miserable
inside!”. This was a painful journey, but made me realize my
own inner strength. I know am going to NEED IT, to be true to myself
and deal with reality (which may be ugly).
I know DH is hoping I will change my mind. In his opinion - there is
no 'logical' reason for me to feel as I do. We have a great
relationship, we live within our means, ok financially, healthy,
stable careers, nice house, family nearby for
support..etc…except of course the fact that I dislike children,
have NEVER wanted them...and know 100% that having them would be a
huge mistake for me.
I already feel Resentment that he isn’t looking out for my best
interests but is focusing on his own, but I still love him enough to
not allow the “R” to affect our lives. We have always
been able to work it out before and remain happy and best friends.
We will be resolving the issue very soon (I will post about it). (I
know there is a chance a BIG chance that things will not work out for
us and it’s a FACT I have accepted). I know what I want from
my life (serenity, time for my pets, friends, hobbies, books, art,
travel, career, need I go on?). I would rather be alone than make 3
persons unhappy.
Frank, you will not feel happy being blackmailed into a situation you
didn’t want, especially the 24/7/365 for 18 yrs. It may seem
impossible to you now, but do you want to be live your life as a
“numb” or “resentful” person? Both of which
will kill what love you feel for your wife in no time. I have seen
this too often with divorced friends (just over other unresolved
issues). If you need support, GET IT and quick. This NG should be a
big help. It is OK to feel the way you feel even if it's not the way
most everyone around you feels. Talk to you therapist or this NG but
decide for yourself, don’t just go along with a major life
decision and then blame yourself for being unhappy.
I plan on confronting my DH on the issue in the next few weeks. Sounds
like she hasn't given you enough time to really decide what you need
and want.
Since I’ve been lucky in having enough time to come to a final
decision regarding kids I am at peace with it. I can’t even
tell you the huge relief I have felt just knowing what is right for
me. At least that part can be crossed off my "nasty to deal with
list!". Since you are still at that first -decide for sure step, you
still have a long way to go so you will need to be strong!
However, I can understand your total panic at the idea of loosing your
best friend and your marriage.
I also can’t even fathom a life without my DH (I hope it
doesn’t come to that), but if he really can’t be happy as
CF than I realize we must go our separate ways and pursue our
different dreams. There is no compromise here. There is no way one
person can live the other person’s dreams and PRETEND to be
happy. You only get one life.
It is a brutal and heartbreaking truth that sometimes you will need to
put your needs above the needs of someone you love.
If you really feel that having kids isn’t for you it probably
isn’t. If you are so stressed over this, it’s your soul
telling you “WARNING, THINK CAREFULLY! You might be headed for
MAJOR TROUBLE”.
Feel free to vent here and keep us posted!
I.C.
Tracyarts
But the marriage ended the day she said it was either her and a baby or not
her.
She is no longer motivated by the marriage but by the prospective baby. If she
is honestly prepared to leave you, then you have your answer, you are no longer
first in her life.
If she is willing to drop the marriage for the baby, then the baby means more
to her than the marriage. Once _anything_ starts to mean more to a couple than
the marriage, the marriage is over.
Nobody wins.
You either lose her or she loses the potential baby or you cave and you lose
yourself.
Your best bet is to part friends and wish her well and hope she finds a partner
who wants the same thing she wants.
If you cave and impregnate her, then you have sold yourself out for her, and
you will resent her and resent the child for pressuring you into giving in.
If you do not impregnate her and she stays, she will resent you for taking away
her potential baby.
I cannot see any way to save the marriage.
This is a no compromise situation.
Tracy
Pixel Wench
> We're not talking compromise here. We're talking capitulation. You *cannot* compromise on child-bearing, simply because there's no half
> measure. You can't meet her halfway, she can't meet you halfway. One of you has to win. In order for both of you to win you have to
> split up.
To add to what Vince is saying here, you really need to do some
serious soul searching about what you ultimately want in your life.
Sure, your wife may be a source of a lot of your happiness, but which
do you think will be more damaging to you? The temporary unhappiness
you will have if you split up with your wife, or the unhappiness and
building resentment that has a great chance of happening because you
caved in to her desires and had a child that you did not want? Are you
willing to risk potenial misery and an obligation to the raising of a
child that you do not want?
What do YOU want?
IMO, a child should be brought in to a family that wants it. BOTH
parents should want it. This is not a compromise situation. Less than
this is unfair to the child and to the parent that doesn't want it.
If I were a man and in your shoes with this ultimatum, I would leave
her. It would break my heart, but I'd still do it. Then I'd proceed to
the nearest Planned Parenthood and get myself snipped so by the time I
felt like getting in to another relationship, I'd already have made
reproducing a moot point.
Good luck in what you do, sounds like you have a very rough road
ahead. Get a big 4X4. *G*
Keri
Mr. Chance
"Renee" <sma...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3b264d1e...@nntp.uunet.ca...
> And here's something I've said to another person who was having this
> problem: Your wife is willing to ditch you for someone she hasn't
> even met yet. A *hypothetical* other person (in this case, a child) is
> more important to her than you are.
I think this is the salient point in all of this. And here's
another angle on it: Your wife is blackmailing you. She
is asking you to abandon a part of your identity (being
childfree) so that she can have something she wants, and
if you do not agree she will punish you in the most
powerful way she can. By leaving. I'm sorry but that is a
completely unreasonable way to treat your life's partner.
And how can blackmail be the basis for raising a child?
Chance
Laurie E
>Date: 6/12/01 9:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>We've had all of these discussions, and she's been more than patient.
>I have to decide NOW.
>
>
NOW??? Or what? Or else? How dare she do that to you! You know you don't
want to. Tell her that. Then let HER decide. If you give in, you only have
yourself to blame for your less-than-happy marriage/life. You will be going
into it KNOWING you don't want this. Bed. Made. Lie. Don't let this happen to
you.
Your wife is being damn selfish and inconsiderate. How dare she, especially
when you two agreed on a CF marriage. Perhaps you should ask her... better a
life with you alone, or a life alone with a kid.
Laurie E
Laurie
Simplicity is the spice of my life
Laurie E
>Date: 6/11/01 9:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time
> I said I would consider whether I could change my
>mind about having a child. Now I'm a mess. :(
So, you consider it, and then decide NO.
By the way, this "compromise" crap is just that... CRAP. Have a baby with me
or I leave? You call that a compromise??? I call that a BLACKMAIL.
Laurie
Mr. Chance
<SM> wrote in message news:nfocit0arukn6jjmk...@4ax.com...
> Say no, say goodbye.
> It's not easy, but it's really the only solution.
Not so fast. She has a lot to learn. She needs to be educated
that being childfree is an essential part of Frank's identity --
that he's not just being stubborn, holding out on something
that he could break down and agree to with just a bit of
regret. She also needs to be educated in the fact that if an
agreement was made to not have kids, then even though her
mind changed, the grown-up thing to do is own her change
of mind and learn to live with the disappointment. She needs
to be educated that Frank has suffered a deep disappointment
too -- he had a childfree partner and now he is alone,
childfree in a pro-natalist world. Will she listen to reason? Will she
come around? We don't know. But it is by no means out of the
question and given that Frank loves her it is worthwhile to try.
One who has been there,
Chance
Laurie E
>Date: 6/12/01 9:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>We did agree to not have kids before we got married. Minds change,
>unfortunately in this case.
>
As your marriage was meant for life... didn't she think THIS DECISION would be?
>I must
>consider "choosing love", meaning doing what I need to do to stay with
>the love of my life versus making the choice to not have a child that
>I know seems obvious to an outside observer.
Seems to me she's taking advantage of your love for her. How nice of her,
isn't it?
There are 59 posts left for me to read on this thread, so I want to ask... has
anyone posted about the test regarding having kids? I believe it's on
Resolve.com, or something like that? Since I KNOW I'm CF, don't need to take
the test, therefore, I don't have the url... anybody else have it?
Frank, both you and your wife should take it.
Laurie E
>Date: 6/12/01 9:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>We did agree to not have kids before we got married. Minds change,
>unfortunately in this case.
Oh no, her mind didn't change, apparently. She always intended to foist a kid
on you.
When you discussed it, in her head she reasoned, "Hmm... Frank + kids = no
wedding. Frank + No Kids + I can change his mind later = wedding."
OF COURSE SHE AGREED WITH YOU!!!
This is simple, pure, blackmail.
Beatlebum
wrote:
>> sickening story of blackmail snipped.
86 the bitch. Sounds harsh I know, but believe me, you should never
capitulate to this kind of ultimatum. When she realizes you are
serious she will retract, in which case you should let her know that
you're really uncomfortable taking the chance that she won't have
another juicy ultimatum for you in the future.
Make no mistake, there is no excuse for her behavior. As her husband
you should be #1 in her life. Threatening the get rid of you if she
doesn't get her way tells me you're married to a spoiled, selfish
bitch. I know you love her, but try and look at this from an
objecttive standpoint. Ask yourself this- will you be kicking yourself
years later if the shit hits the fan? You're a young man at a very
important turning point, think carefully about this decision. You're
fucked whatever you do, but for god's sake don't bring a child into
the world unless you're 100% sure.
Pat
should want a child and agree on it before one is conceived. I know
that's not how it always works, but in the best of all possible
worlds, that's how it should be.
The problem is that there's a third party that will be brought into it
if you go ahead and have a child you really don't want and that's the
kid who has absolutely no say (as far as most of us know <g>) as to
whether s/he will be born or not and whether this is a good situation
for him/her. You'll be legally responsible for that child for 18+
years - possibly more. That's the bottom line - it's not like you're
compromising on painting the bedroom blue vs green!
On 11 Jun 2001 21:36:33 -0700, fdo...@hushmail.com (Frank Thomas)
wrote:
>We have been celibate since she told me it was a child and her or not
>her.
>Impossible to argue with this. Unfortunately, my wife is a huge part
>of what makes me happy. Compromise is a part of marriage and it isn't
>all bad. A few years ago I would be horrified that I would write the
>previous sentence. Now, I'm willing to compromise, but I don't know
>about something this huge, perhaps the biggest life decision one can
>make, and one involving a nonconsenting participant to boot.
Melia
On Tue, 12 Jun 2001, Mr. Chance wrote:
[dump her]
> Not so fast. She has a lot to learn. She needs to be educated
> that being childfree is an essential part of Frank's identity --
> that he's not just being stubborn, holding out on something
> that he could break down and agree to with just a bit of
> regret. She also needs to be educated in the fact that if an
> agreement was made to not have kids, then even though her
> mind changed, the grown-up thing to do is own her change
> of mind and learn to live with the disappointment. She needs
> to be educated that Frank has suffered a deep disappointment
> too -- he had a childfree partner and now he is alone,
> childfree in a pro-natalist world. Will she listen to reason? Will she
> come around? We don't know. But it is by no means out of the
> question and given that Frank loves her it is worthwhile to try.
I actually have to agree with this. Although he says that she's considered
all her options, I would doubt that he has actually provided her with all
his input also.
Perhaps Frank is experiencing a bit of guilt about his decision also. In a
case like that, he would be more apologetic than explanatory. It might be
time to try not apologizing for simply feeling the way he always has. If
you've come to the point that divorce is a real possibility, then it might
be time to try really laying it all out on the table. "These are the
things that I wantin my life...I can not give up the hope of these for a
child." Get honest. If she can't deal with that reasonably, than breaking
up will be easier than it will if you're still apologizing for feeling the
way you do (which isn't something for which you should apologize, since
she's the one who changed the rules mid-game). There's nothing wrong with
feeling that way, but there's also nothing wrong with explaining to
someone exactly why you feel that way without apologizing or feeling
guilty about it.
I sense from Frank's posts that he doesn't really feel that it's okay to
be childfree. After being told by a ton of people (including his formerly
childfree wife) that he's wrong, this is understandable, but it's not
okay. Maybe he just needs a little reality check, which was why he posted
in the first place. Here it is, Frank: It's okay to feel the way you do,
and maybe if you talk about it in a rational way, you can show her how
unreasonable it is for her to place you in this position.
She's clearly not being reasonable now. If she can't manage to get
reasonable soon and not just retract but actually apologize profusely for
her ultimatum, then you are genuinely better off without her. Trust in
this. Your marriage, as harsh as this is, is much more easily severed than
parental responsibilities, regardless of how you become a parent.
If you were not feeling somehow responsible, as if you were doing
something wrong, you would probably be better able to relate to the moral
outrage that her ultimatum brings out in other posters. I, for one, would
be livid. That's not a healthy marriage based on love and respect...it's
actually pretty twisted, and she made it that way.
Mark R.
>
> > Ida Kern wrote:
<snip>
> > I think it's kind of cruel for someone to
> > *demand* that their spouse gives them a baby. Very selfish. Me me me.
>
> This is how I felt initially ... angry and disbelieving. However, I
> realize that she is giving me a choice, not making a demand.
No, she is giving you an ultimatum, one that is just shy of a demand.
If it was actually a *choice* it would'nt involve her leaving if you
told her you definatly did'nt want kids.
> Although
> I love her dearly, she isn't forcing me to choose having a child. It
> is frustrating to know that many people consider me the selfish one
> for not wanting to have a child.
Does'nt surprise me at all, people (as a general rule) are idiots.
There is NOTHING selfish about not having children that you don't want
and are'nt prepared to take care of. Now if you turn around and have a
child just so your wife will stay THAT would be selfish.
Your wife is the one being selfish with her "my way or the highway"
attitude.
> My mother says that the only reason
> for marriage is having children, and I should have expected that my
> wife would want children
Anyone who would say such a thing needs to remove themselves from the
genepool. I wonder how many people actually believe that?, it sure would
explain why the divorce rate is so high nowadays.
The only reason to get married is because you found someone you love
dearly and who you could'nt live without, PERIOD.
> (I did expect her to have pangs for
> motherhood, as a woman, though I thought I could just be caring and it
> wouldn't come to her wanting to leave if I wouldn't have children).
>
I really have to wonder is your marrige is worth saving, as someone who
would give you an ultimatum like that does'nt care about you as much as
you may think they do.
I know loosing someone who you really care about hurts a lot, but I
think you might be better off without her.
Good luck
Later
Mark R.
--
SPAM IS BAD, remove it from my E-Mail to reply!
tigger
ultimatum. And she's pretty much decided that you (and what you want)
are less important than her, her child, (and it will be _her_ child)
and what she wants. You really ought to consider the possibility that
your relationship is over anyway.
It doesn't sound like much of a partnership when she is saying "my way
or the highway." Do you really want to be in a marriage like that?
And a child that you don't want on top of it? There really are a lot
of very nice, truly childfree women out there...
It's up to you to decide what you can live with. For the rest of your
life. Best of luck.
Ida Kern
young............19?
At this young age, I see no reason why you have to have children now. Even
if you do decide to compromise and have a child, why can't you wait until
you're a little older to do it?
In a few years, you may change your mind and be ready(or, like me, become
more steadfast in your decision NOT to have kids). I never even *considered*
having children until I was 30.
Nowdays, women are having kids in their 40's so there's certainly there is
no rush. Why can't she wait?
Does your wife have a college degree? A good job? Perhaps she feels she is
lacking something. I went throught this and am returning to college to
finish my degree. Maybe she needs to do something else with her
life.........perhaps volunteer somewhere. Be a big sister.
I'd hate to see you both break up over something like this, but you are in
grave danger of being oopsed. Even if she's on the pill, I think I'd start
using condoms if I were you or you may end up being a father regardless of
your wishes.
Ida
"Frank Thomas" <fdo...@hushmail.com> wrote in message
news:503e2076.0106...@posting.google.com...
> Vince Conaway <vcon...@vinceconaway.com> wrote in message
news:<3B261173...@vinceconaway.com>...
> > Right now you're on the defensive, and waffling hasn't helped.
>
> I know.
>
> > Your wife has put you in the spot of choosing her or a baby. My
personal
> > suggestion is that you try and turn the tables on her - don't waffle,
hem, or haw. Look her in the eye and give her the same ultimatum
> > back - 'it's me or a child - you choose'. Then try and discuss the
fallout with her, let her know how pressured you feel, and that if you
> > are to change your mind on this you have to do it the way you did it
with marriage - on your own and at your own pace. That'll buy you
> > some time. If you want you can toss in some 'would you bring a child
into this world with an uncertain father' do it for the kid's sake
> > bullshit. Breeders eat that crap up.
FelixHenry
from a child of an abusive and unloving father. Don't do it.
Shauna
Unknown
<cha...@notecrusher.com> spake thusly:
The problem is that she married Frank as a person with a CF identity
and she's decided for herself to leave that behind and she thinks HE
has to be educated.
No, the decision was made when she said "me and a baby or else I
leave" there's no going back from that.
SM
Ida Kern
I sought counseling when my husband decided to get a vasectomy because I
knew it would be a permanent decision for us. I felt like there was
something *wrong* with me for not wanting a child. I wanted someone else's
non-judgemental input about the situation. Since my shrink has kids, I
expected him to be all for having kids but he was pretty decent about
remaining neutral. He let me know some of the good parts about having kids
and also confirmed how much work was involved. I don't regret talking to him
about it.
When I first got married, I always assumed I would have kids. We were both
ambigious about it........neither one way or the other. I figured if my
birth control failed, so be it I would have a child, but I wasn't going to
*try*. The ironic thing is, I actually split up with a boyfriend a few years
before my marriage to Bill because the BF was adamantly CF and I was still
unsure at the time.
My husband and I slowly fell into the CF life. He did not get his vasectomy
until after we were married for 7 years.
So I can understand how people change their minds. I still think my husband
would have been a very good father. Unfortunately, I don't have with any
maternal instincts.
I am soooooooo thankful he loves me enough not to coerce me into doing it.
I wish you both well. I hope you resolve this without having to seperate.
Your plight has touched a painful part of my soul.
Ida
"Melia" <me...@bayarea.net> wrote in message
news:Pine.NEB.4.21.01061...@shell2.bayarea.net...
Pete
ico...@eurosport.com (IC) wrote:
WHy are you using HTML escape characters. This isn't the web...Pete
--
Now it's all right to let the good times roll
But try and exercise a little self-control
R. Skies
> You are in denial. Look at the situation. She gave you an ultimatum. "me
> and baby or nothing." Clearly something is more important to her than
> you are. Is that love? I see it as manipulation, arm-twisting and a
> shining beacon that indeed, she no longer loves you. When her mind
> changed about baby, it also changed about YOU.
I don't think that is *necessarily* an attempt at manipulation.
It might be, but I don't know if we can tell from what Frank's said.
There is a difference, though a subtle one, between being manipulative
and just stating your situation.
The differences: 1. The manipulator's primary intent, in saying,
"unless X happens, I will do Y" is to get X to happen. 2. The
manipulator believes that this is likely to cause X to happen.
3. If X doesn't happen, the manipulator will most likely cave in
and not do Y after all (proof that the intent was just to try to
get X to happen).
Compare a person who finds herself in a situation she can no longer
live with -- because she's gotta have a kid, or whatever other reason.
Her motivation is that she simply has to change her situation. She
may know that X isn't very likely to happen. She may even believe
that it's essentially impossible, but she feels that she has to
explain why she's doing Y, plus give the other person one last chance
to re-evaluate in case they really are willing to make X happen.
And if X doesn't happen, she really will do Y. This person will
never even raise the issue of X unless she's thought it all the way
through and is truly prepared to do Y if that is the only choice
left to her.
I think this is what's meant by "is that a threat, or a promise?"
For a long time I didn't understand that cliche -- I couldn't see
what the difference was. The manipulator is threatening. The person
making their choice is promising.
I do agree, though, that she has apparently decided having a child
is more important than maintaining the relationship. If she's just
making the decision she has to do this, then obviously she's decided
having a child is worth leaving the relationship. And if she doesn't
really mean to leave and is just trying to arm-twist her husband into
doing what she wants, then she thinks her desires are more important
than treating him with respect. Maybe that's another way to express
the difference I'm talking about -- in the one case, there is respect
between the parties, and in the other, the manipulative one doesn't
have enough respect for the other to let them make an honest decision.
Frank, good luck. You are in a hard place. I am trying to decide
myself if I want to have kids, so I understand that, but don't
have the pressure on me that you do.
Here's something my old roommate taught me for deciding between two
alternatives. It's just a trick for helping you realize what you
*really* want. It doesn't work for "shoulds" against "wants,"
like "I want to go to the beach, but I should go to work," but
when you are deciding between alternatives where there's no real
"should" and there are good and bad sides to both choices, it can
be helpful sometimes:
Flip a coin. Heads, stay together and have a child. Tails, split
up and you don't have a child. Now, BEFORE YOU LOOK AT THE COIN,
even while it's in the air if you can, ask yourself: "Right now,
what am I hoping the coin will say?" Think about your answer, if
you have one.
R.
Callai
It's a tad ironic but I think you would make a good parent and certainly far
better than the ones who go into parenthood thoughtlessly. However, please
don't take my words to indicate encouragement along the path to fatherhood!
You don't actually sound ambivalent about the child aspect, the ambivalence
is about what you are prepared to sacrifice in order to keep your wife. If
you were ambivalent about the child then I'd be suggesting that you ask your
wife for a set length of time to let you examine your feelings closely
before making a final decision. I doubt whether your wife wants a reluctant,
resentful father to her child...she's probably asking for something far more
difficult for you to give, that is, to actively want a child for your own
sake, as much as hers. Is this possible?
Marriage is about making choices together and couples often come up against
unexpected issues. We don't remain the same people we were when we married
and different things become important to us. Sometimes what we want is so
different that our spouse can't accommodate our wishes, the sacrifice is too
much.
Both your positions are valid and neither of you is more right than the
other. Your wife has told you she is willing to sacrifice your marriage
because raising a child is more important to her than staying married to
you. That has to have shaken your belief in her love and commitment to you
very badly.
I suppose I see your wife as wanting to add something to her life and your
relationship, whereas you want things to stay the same. I feel this way
because I have children, very wanted and very planned but only after 9 years
of being perfectly happy thinking we were going to be childless. Fortunately
we both changed our minds at the same time. I would never have "Ooopsed" so
I could have been in your wife's situation. The desire to have a child hit
me suddenly and became very strong. Before then, though, an accidental child
would have been a major disaster and been very hard to deal with.
So, no answers, I'm afraid. Please look after contraception from your side
because accidents are even more likely to happen if one spouse has less
reason to be vigilent than the other. Even if your wife is being careful the
subconscious mind is pretty ruthless about taking us where we want to go.
Children deserve to be wanted by both parents.
Good luck,
Callai
Frank Thomas <fdo...@hushmail.com> wrote in message
news:503e2076.0106...@posting.google.com...
> Hi, I haven't ever visited alt.support.childfree before, though I
> certainly have been childfree as long as I've been aware of the issue
> (I'm 31 now). I've never had children, never wanted any, and
> generally don't like being around them. I have some affection for
> VHEMT. I'm not quite a child hater, though I've never liked children,
> even when I was one.
>
> I've been married for nearly three years. We agreed not to have
> children when we got married. Over about the last year my wife has
> slowly realized that she really wants to have one child. Now she
> really, really wants to try to have a child. She says it is so
> important to her that she would leave me if I don't agree to try.
>
> I'm not angry at my wife for changing her mind. She's been through a
> lot and is working to be healthier every day. It is really wonderful
> watching her develop from what I considered a wonderful person into an
> even more wonderful person. Coming to the realization that she wants
> a child is part of this process, and in that way it is good. I want
> her to be true to herself.
>
> I am frustrated that she wants a child so badly that she's willing to
> leave me to pursue it, but such is life.
>
> I feel like an idiot for not having gotten a vasectomy. She's been on
> the pill since we've known each other. I have looked into getting
> snipped several times, but I've always procrastinated. About a year
> and a half ago I went to see a urologist I was referred to (with great
> objection from my general doctor). The urologist turned out to be an
> old fogey who didn't know about recent vasectomy techniques, so I
> started looking for someone else, and didn't get around to it.
>
> However, my wife says that even if I had gotten a vasectomy, she'd be
> wanting to adopt. She says her need is to raise a child from the
> beginning, not necessarily to have one live in her uterus. Me, I'm
> not keen on raising a child, with or without my DNA.
>
> I'm thankful that my wife hasn't tricked me and gotten pregnant by
> "mistake" as I guess many women do when they want a child and the man
> is ambivalent or against the idea and hasn't gotten a vasectomy.
>
> In any case, I'm faced with a decision now: agree to have a child, or
> face losing my wife. I don't want to have a child and at some level
> think it is wrong to have a child without really, really wanting it
> (the child didn't ask to be born after all). I don't want to "lose"
> my wife (I put lose in quotes because I think we'd still be friends)
> who is really my very best friend and the love of my life, who I've
> been looking forward to growing old with.
>
> Unfortunately I CAN'T have both.
>
> So, I'd appreciate anecdotes, feedback, support, or whatever from
> people who have been in similar situations -- in particular men who
> haven't wanted children with wives who decided they wanted children
> after marriage.
>
> If you did end up having children, you might not want to crosspost to
> alt.childfree, as it appears you'll get flamed to a toast. I'm
> interested in all viewpoints, posted publically or sent to me
> personally.
>
> If you feel a need to flame me, go right ahead, I don't mind.
>
> Thanks!
> just a little bit desperate
Chris Petit
> > Furthermore, your wife doesn't love you any more. Get
> > USED to that idea. She has gone from loving you to seeing you as a sperm
> > donor and wallet.
>
> I'm 101% certain that my wife does still love me.
Your wife MAY love you for what she can get OUT of you, but she has
STOPPED loving you as a person. If she didn't, she would NOT be putting
this much pressure on you.
You've become a Velveteen Rabbit, Frank. If you never read the story,
it's basically about a stuffed rabbit which was a boy's toy until the boy
outgrew it. When he got sick, the rabbit was thrown away. The boy had
progressed onto new toys.
> > Being CF is like a sexual preference. You're born that way. If you are
> > CF, you are another species.
>
> I'm skeptical about that. For many people even sexual preference is
> filled with ambiguity.
Your statement that you hate children and don't like being around them
is NOT ambigious. You're ambigious because, naturally, you don't want to
lose your wife. But, sadly, she has ALREADY chosen a HYPOTHETICAL child
over you.
> > Why you didn't lay down the law before the wedding day remains a mystery
> > but the situation being what it is, your choice is clear. Make it...Pete
>
> We did agree to not have kids before we got married. Minds change,
> unfortunately in this case.
Minds do NOT change on their core values. Your wife was probably
ambivalent before you got married. Now, she's made her decision.
> I'm normally an extremely rational person. Many people accuse me of
> being robot-like, though I don't see it that way. I have a mostly
> hidden sentimental/unreconstructed romantic side, and for this I must
> consider "choosing love", meaning doing what I need to do to stay with
> the love of my life versus making the choice to not have a child that
> I know seems obvious to an outside observer.
In your heart, you feel your wife is a certain way, and you want to hold
onto that vision. I know how that feels. However, you need to emotionally
face the outside world here. She's already abandoned you, Frank. She's
abandoned you for a yet-nonexistant child!
> See, if I weren't going crazy with this I would never have posted!
I understand how difficult this is. It's NEVER easy to break up with
someone you care about. But, in this case, it's either take the pain and be
unhappy NOW, or be much unhappier (and poorer due to child support payments)
in several years.
Your wife has made her choice. Now you need to make the choice that is
right by your core values. Good luck.
Jonathan H. Pickard
Pete <sl...@jgnvfjhff.com> wrote:
>In article <3a7712d6.01061...@posting.google.com>,
> ico...@eurosport.com (IC) wrote:
>
>WHy are you using HTML escape characters. This isn't the web...Pete
To Microsoft, _everything_ is the web. (Notice she's using Google Groups
to post, which should convert the Windows-1252 "smart" quotes to ASCII
quotes, but doesn't.)
-jhp, just another example of charismatic leaders dragging the masses
into some damn useless war or other
--
-> Jonathan Pickard, unaffiliated <- -> sometimes known as marxmarv <-
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us
with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
-Galileo Galilei
Mistress Dominatra, Esq.
>
http://boards.multicity.com/servlet/BoardServePage?action=7&boardid=839284&t
ranslatelanguage=&msgid=103&pg=1&expand=1
> Sounds just like it could be your wife, isn't it?
> Look at the advice she is getting from Breeders. That's what your
> wife is hearing too. How long do you think before she will cave in
> and do it?
My God, that is scary stuff!
Frank . . I hope you're listening . . . I hope you're reading. Get out.
Now. There are plenty of wonderful sterlized CF women who will love to be
with you as soon as you work out your relationship issues.
MDE
George Dau
]Columbine, anyone? I don't read of babies being left in their car seats in
]other countries.
I only hear of US Sizzlers here in this (mainly US) newsgroup. They do not make
our news.
Our sizzlers, snorklers etc don't make your news either. Not suprised really.
Callai
Madia <ih8br...@portalofevil.com> wrote in message
news:q7ndit05d0u7b1flt...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 13 Jun 2001 01:45:55 GMT, "Callai" <cal...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> /snip/
>
> It would be greatly appreciated if you would NOT
> cross post between NGs. All you have to do is to
> check the headers.
>
The OP was on topic for both alt.support.marriage and
alt.support.childfree. His post was responded to from both newsgroups in
entirely appropriate manner by members of both groups. If your problem is
with being exposed to ideas you don't want to think about then you need to
learn that cross-postings are a fact of life of usenet. Get used to it and
learn to use your newsreader program's filtering option.
If you're worrying about band-width then you should think about your own OT
posts. Not that they concern me either.
You can have the last word,
Callai
(unimpressed by net pedants)
> Madia
>
bkrrrrr
>
> No, she is giving you an ultimatum, one that is just shy of a demand.
>If it was actually a *choice* it would'nt involve her leaving if you
>told her you definatly did'nt want kids.
That's just not true. She changed her mind. It happens. Often.
If children are more important to her than staying with him, then
she HAS to make the decision to leave if he doesn't want any.
>Your wife is the one being selfish with her "my way or the highway"
>attitude.
She's probably just being honest.
--
> bkrrrrr bkr@!purge!.lmtgtm.org :) :) \/ |\ _,,,---,,_ :) <
> CF++;TK++;TPI+++;A++;VF++;(v2.0) /\ PRrrr /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ <
> "I went to cyberspace and all I \/ |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' <
> got was this stupid .sig" - Anonymous /\ '---''(_/--' `-'\_) fL <
bkrrrrr
>> unfortunately in this case.
>
> Minds do NOT change on their core values.
Oh yes they can...
Biochemistry guest
> generally don't like being around them. I have some affection for
> VHEMT. I'm not quite a child hater, though I've never liked children,
> even when I was one.
What is VHEMT?
> I've been married for nearly three years. We agreed not to have
> children when we got married. Over about the last year my wife has
> slowly realized that she really wants to have one child. Now she
> really, really wants to try to have a child. She says it is so
> important to her that she would leave me if I don't agree to try.
[snip]
Interesting fact: Childless couples (not childfree) on the whole
have happier, more stable marriages than those who had children.
--
All the words after the at in my address are spelt kcab ot tnorf.
Biochemistry guest
> Pete <sl...@jgnvfjhff.com> wrote in message news:<slia-A95052.2...@news.newsguy.com>...
> > You must STOP HAVING SEX with her right this minute. It's not easy but
> > it is a MUST.
>
> As I mentioned previously, we've been celibate, though it never
> occurred to me that her getting pregnant by "mistake" or "oopsing" as
> people here seem to like to call the phenomenon until she mentioned
> recently that I should be thankful she wasn't that sort of person.
> From my perspective, we haven't had sex because I just find it too
> emotionally intense when there are bad things going on between us.
> For me sex isn't a way to make things better, it's icing on the cake
> when things are already going well.
>
> > Furthermore, your wife doesn't love you any more. Get
> > USED to that idea. She has gone from loving you to seeing you as a sperm
> > donor and wallet.
>
> I'm 101% certain that my wife does still love me.
Actually, I am quite sure that you have a better handle on whether or not
she loves you than some dogmatic stranger in a newsgroup does.
As for the "walking wallet" thing, how are your finances? Does she make as
much as you do? How much money are you saving for retirement? Many
men feel reluctant to be the "bad guy" when someone is dependent on them
for support. Would she be able to support a kid on her own? If so,
consider separating (temporarily) while she starts raising a child (adopted
or natural, I'm sure something could be worked out). If you -then- feel
you would rather go and join her than be on your own, great. I know this
is a whacky suggestion, but it separates the issues rather well. Would you
rather live with your wife and a child or on your own? Does she need your
support to finance her baby-rabies?
> > Being CF is like a sexual preference. You're born that way. If you are
> > CF, you are another species.
>
> I'm skeptical about that. For many people even sexual preference is
> filled with ambiguity.
I'm wholeheartedly with you here, Thomas. I'm nominally straight, but
if I'd met a man I loved before I committed to my wife, I might have been
nominally gay. However, for some of us CF is so much a core identity
that we could not ever imagine having to care for a child. There is a grey
area, and you must find for yourself what your values are. But, as you
already know, having a child is at least an 18-year sentence with no parole
(exchangeable for a hefty fine each month ;-).
> > Why you didn't lay down the law before the wedding day remains a mystery
> > but the situation being what it is, your choice is clear. Make it...Pete
>
> We did agree to not have kids before we got married. Minds change,
> unfortunately in this case.
Shit happens, hey? I'm lucky enough to be married to someone who left
her ex-fiancee because he came up with a similar ultimatum to the one
you're sitting with. Actually, there were other factors, but that was a good
reason in and of itself.
> I'm normally an extremely rational person. Many people accuse me of
> being robot-like, though I don't see it that way. I have a mostly
> hidden sentimental/unreconstructed romantic side,
Hah, you could be describing me there!
> and for this I must
> consider "choosing love", meaning doing what I need to do to stay with
> the love of my life versus making the choice to not have a child that
> I know seems obvious to an outside observer.
>
> See, if I weren't going crazy with this I would never have posted!
The rational side of you must, I'm sure, realize that there can never be
just one "love of your life", but don't bother explaining that to your
romantic side :-). I will, however, urge once more that you keep talking
and thinking, and get snipped ASAP. If you do decide to bring up a
kid together, make it a rational decision, and don't just "let it happen".
Make her have to do more than just seduce you (mentally and
physically to get a kid.
I just once more refer you to your statement that you don't like kids.
It's not different when it's your own. I have three cats, and one in
particular craves more love and attention than I can really give,
what with work etc. I feel bad enough about that. Doing that to
a child is evil. Do you like animals? Do you live in a house with
a back yard? If so, you might get a puppy as a child-substitute
to get the pressure off for a while. And while you're at it, walk the
dog every evening when you get off work. It'll give you and your
wife time together, and while you're at it you can compare the time
you can spend with the dog with the time you would be able to
spend with a child. Poodles are very nice, affectionate, intelligent
dogs, and the "miniature" kind (about bull terrier height, but much
lighter, as opposed to the "toy", which is lapdog size, or the
"standard" size, which are large, and great fun!) makes a great
companion animal. If a dog sounds like too much trouble, sorry,
no kids for you. Go stand in the corner. Bad boy.
B and B
Kent <kmpREM...@paREMOVEgesz.net> wrote in message
news:rnrV6.65963$t4.1...@news-reader.ntrnet.net...
> In alt.support.childfree floridaNB <florid...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> : Have you considered getting into counseling to explore what motivates
> : your feelings about not having children? Take all precautions until
> : you are certain; surely she will give you time to make sure you know
> : what you can do ... if not, that is not a good sign.
>
> Why is the onus on HIM? Why can't SHE get counseling as to why she'd want
> to sabotage a marriage, after promising that she was NOT interested in
> reproducing, all of a sudden just to have kids? Parenthood is NOT the
> "default" and SHE is the one who's changed her mind.
>
> Kent
Because he's the one with the complaint.
B and B
floridaNB <florid...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3b2613cc...@news.mindspring.com...
> On Tue, 12 Jun 2001 10:13:00 GMT, "Chris Petit" <blue...@home.com>
> > I agree with Imajika. Some women who want babies will do ANYTHING to
> >get them, fuck the rights and wishes of their partner, fuck morality.
> >
> > Having children is NOT an issue which can be compromised. You either
> >both want children, or it is an issue which means you must break up.
It's
> >sad, but much less sad than paying for 18 years of child support for a
kid
> >you did NOT want.
> >
> > And, if you think your wife will be the same post baby, you are DEAD
> >WRONG.
>
> Many men also undergo a dramatic change once they have children ...
> most people are not really prepared for parenthood until they are
> there themselves ... some love it.
I have also seen some who were stoked about having a baby...until they had
one. A woman a few doors down from us had one 8 months ago, and she was so
happy about being pregnant, etc. Well, she actually calls her kid "fucker"
and stuff. She resents him like nothing I've seen before.
>
> It really depends if the man is just uncertain and apprehensive or if
> he is absolutely certain he does not want children in any shape or
> form. Having children to save a marriage does not work.
No, it doesn't. I was supposed to "save" my parent's marriage, and that, of
course, didn't work.
>
> FloridaNB
Biochemistry guest
Ida Kern wrote:
> I'm missing some posts, but I think I saw something that said you were
> young............19?
[snip: don't worry yet]
You misread Noelle's post. He's 31.
Enriko Bouswell
>
> At least these folks are talking about whether to have a child and
> trying to determine if they will make suitable parents ... that gives
> them a big leg up on folks who just do it with no thought.
>
> I know people who were certain they wanted children and were certain
> they would love it ... who, once faced with the reality of what having
> a child meant, decided they did not like it at all.
>
Once decission is made it doesn't matter either they knew
what they are doing or not, does it? Original poster
knows pretty well he doesn't want any children right now and
still has found himself in a lose/lose situation.
He has my deepest simpathy indeed. I am going through something
similar right now, since my wife decided that now she really wants
children. Either she will be unhappy for the rest of her life (at least
she feels that way now) or I will give up all my objectives and will
never find a way to happy or at least tolerable living. If we will
divorce (and we both do not see this as an option) we will be
unhappy both. We are disacussing and discussing those matters
until it feels like brains are going to pop out. May be there is some
way how to accept situation the way it will be after the birth of child
and deal with it? I don't know, but I have been in lots of situations
(i'm not that young either) where happy living is not an option -
and I'm still breathing, feeling and definitely alive :))))
Life is still a bitch sometimes.
Enro
floridaNB
<ih8br...@portalofevil.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 13 Jun 2001 01:45:55 GMT, "Callai" <cal...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> /snip/
>
> It would be greatly appreciated if you would NOT
>cross post between NGs. All you have to do is to
>check the headers.
>
> Madia
The original poster intentionally posted to the two groups for a valid
reason ... don't slip when you get off your high horse.
FloridaNB
Melia
On Wed, 13 Jun 2001, Biochemistry guest wrote:
> Interesting fact: Childless couples (not childfree) on the whole
> have happier, more stable marriages than those who had children.
This has been common knowlege (and well-reported in the media and in
sociological and psychological studies) for many years, but thanks for the
reminder. Based on my personal experience: OF COURSE THEY ARE...and the
happiest are those who can confidently refer to themselves as childfree
rather than childless. There is nothing missing in our lives; therefore
the "-less" is completely inappropriate.
Melia
On Wed, 13 Jun 2001, B and B wrote:
> Kent <kmpREM...@paREMOVEgesz.net> wrote in message
> news:rnrV6.65963$t4.1...@news-reader.ntrnet.net...
> >
> > Why is the onus on HIM? Why can't SHE get counseling as to why she'd want
> > to sabotage a marriage, after promising that she was NOT interested in
> > reproducing, all of a sudden just to have kids? Parenthood is NOT the
> > "default" and SHE is the one who's changed her mind.
>
> Because he's the one with the complaint.
Did you read the original post? She is the one who changed the plan. She
had previously agreed to no kids.
mag...@rahul.net
"Chris Petit" <blue...@home.com> put fingers to keyboard and
typed:
>> > At worst, we will be reading about you in an IDWIYO.
>>
>> IDWIYO?
>
> It's Different When It's Your Own. Stories of parents who killed their
>babies/toddlers because they couldn't stand being parents. It DOES happen.
>Why? Having children RADICALLY and PERMANENTLY changes your lifestyle. Get
>used to chronic sleep deprivation, never having enough money to make ends
>meet, never having time to yourself...
>
>> > Childrearing is 24/7/365 of tedium. You don't want to go
>> > through with it unless you really, really, really want.
>>
>> Couldn't be more on my mind.
>
> Good. It's a serious permanent commitment.
>
>> > Has your spouse thought of alternatives to childrearing? There are
>other
>> > ways to contribute to the life of children without breeding them.
>Schools
>> > need volunteers; Boys and Girls' Clubs need volunteers. There are many
>> > disadvantaged kids out there who lack positive adult influence. They
>could
>> > use a warm-hearted individual like your wife in their lives.
Consider signing up to be foster parents. You can get a taste of
parenthood without the long term (18 years plus) commitment of
having a child of your own (by blood or adopted).
A) This might solve your wife's need to be a parent, and yet
leave you the option to say "enough" a few years down the road
and then you stop being foster parents.
B) She might decide she doesn't want to be a parent after all,
after she sees how much work it is and how much it changes her
lifestyle, and decide to quit the foster parent program herself
and not persue having a child with you.
The worse case is that you are back to where you are now, with a
wife who really wants to have kids when you don't.
jc
Teri Hu
> We have been going to therapy together and I've been going
> individually as well. It has been calming, though I don't know if
> I've really gotten any insights through therapy. I mainly have to
> work stuff out myself. That is how I became ok with marriage.
It would seem that your experience with marriage has set the precedent. She
knows you DO change your mind, that you're NOT immovable on the positions
you've taken. Why wouldn't she think this not-wanting-children thing is
similar to the not-wanting-to-be-married thing?
Unless YOU are sure of your reasons for not wanting children, and can
articulate them in a way that communicates to her your seriousness, she's
going to be working from the assumption that you really don't know what you
want and are avoiding the unknown. Why not? You did it before.
Teri
mag...@rahul.net
IleneB <ile...@shore.net> put fingers to keyboard and typed:
>In article <503e2076.0106...@posting.google.com>, Frank
>Thomas <fdo...@hushmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Unfortunately, my wife is a huge part
>> of what makes me happy.
>
>Well, I suspect is she has a kid that you don't want, a huge part of
>what makes you happy with your wife will be history.
Amen to that. When she has a baybee, all the love and attention
you get from her now will be redirected to the baybee. You will
be in second place for many many years, and may never regain
first place. Especially since you are willing to volunteer for
second place by letting her renegotiate one of the key decisions
you jointly made about how your marriage would be conducted
(childfree).
jc
mag...@rahul.net
fdo...@hushmail.com (Frank Thomas) put fingers to keyboard and
typed:
>> Just don't waffle on this issue - not one tiny bit - not even for a second.
>> The answer is "no" until you're absolutely 100% sure it's otherwise.
>
>Unfortunately I have waffled already. I really, really don't want to
>lose my wife, so I said I would consider whether I could change my
>mind about having a child. Now I'm a mess. :(
You have been willing to reconsider. Fair enough. She can't ask
for more. Now it's her turn. She ALSO has to be willing to
reconsider. If not, your marriage is over (baby or not) because
she's decided she can call the shots.
jc
Teri Hu
youshould...@hotmail.com wrote on 6/12/01 6:49 AM:
> x-no-archive: yes
> "floridaNB" wrote:
>> Have you considered getting into counseling to explore what motivates
>> your feelings about not having children?
> I have to say this offended me. Why would someone need counseling to
> explore why they *don't* want children? You make it sound like it's a
> disease.
It's not necessarily to change his mind, but to clarify his reasons so he
can communicate them to her more clearly. It doesn't sound like she really
UNDERSTANDS his reluctance to procreate if she'd put this sort of pressure
on him, and it doesn't seem like he's explaining himself to her very well if
he can't fend off this pressure any better than he has.
Teri
mag...@rahul.net
"Scheisster" <schei...@my-deja.com> put fingers to keyboard and
typed:
>This may be so, Frank. I cannot imagine that she'd leave you for a "person"
>that doesn't even exist yet (the potential sprog) seeing as how she has
>"loved" you for so long, and invested so much into your relationship.
Frank, this has been said in many posts here. So I'm curious if
you two have gone in for couples counseling on this issue? I'd
love to see what your wife says "so you are willing to leave me,
the love of your life and the person you have pledged your life
to, the person you said you wanted to stay with until you grow
old together and die, because you love someone else that you
haven'teven met (the hypothetical baby) more than you love me?",
and what a counselor says about your question and her response.
This one question will get at the heart of the matter. One
session, and then you know.
jc