Children in an art gallery
Charles Aptaker
fantastic paintings by Caravaggio etc. loaned mainly by the Vatican. A
little crowded but we were there early enough to get a good viewing
without too many bodies nearby.
Why do people bring children and even babies to an exhibition? There
were some well behaved 10/11 year olds but a 3 year old fell over and
started screaming and a several babies were "fussing". Why inflict your
child on people who are trying to enjoy a peaceful Sunday morning
exhibition. When everyone is talking quietly, a child saying "apple"
over and over again while mummy and daddy look at a still life can get
right on one's nerves.
At least a member of staff stopped one daddee from feeding his child
biscuits!
Still, glad I went but would have preferred a childfree viewing.
monica
<xk...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>Why do people bring children and even babies to an exhibition? There
>were some well behaved 10/11 year olds but a 3 year old fell over and
>started screaming and a several babies were "fussing". Why inflict your
>child on people who are trying to enjoy a peaceful Sunday morning
>exhibition. When everyone is talking quietly, a child saying "apple"
>over and over again while mummy and daddy look at a still life can get
>right on one's nerves.
We will never know why this happens. Our parents certainly didn't do
it. I was saying just the other day to someone about how short a
dinner out is... let's say that on a weeknight you go out for dinner
at 6:45. You arrive at the restaurant at 7:00, you are seated by
7:15, you order by 7:25, your food comes and you're done eating by
8:20, roughly. You've been in the restaurant nearly 90 minutes.
That's about average, I'm guessing.
Now, how hard is it to get a neighbor, friend, relative, SOMEONE to
sit with your kid(s) for 90 friggin minutes? (ok, plus allow another
15 minutes to drive home) That's 105 minutes, people.
For a weekend dinner out, let's add on another half hour, so we're
talking 2 hours and 15 minutes roughly. Whoopee.
But nooooo, they have to drag their screamers along with them to the
restaurant and annoy everyone seated within 50 yards because they just
couldn't be bothered to plan ahead.
I imagine it's the same with museums. It's just *beyond* their
comprehension that their kids shouldn't go everywhere.
monica
---------------------------------------------------------------------
No woman can call herself free who does not own and control her body.
No woman can call herself free until she can choose consciously whether
she will or will not be a mother.
-Margaret Sanger (1883-1966)
Don & Terri
>Why do people bring children and even babies to an exhibition? There
>were some well behaved 10/11 year olds but a 3 year old fell over and
>started screaming and a several babies were "fussing". Why inflict your
>child on people who are trying to enjoy a peaceful Sunday morning
>exhibition.
Ohhh, for the same reason they take them to really nice restaurants, knowing
they may well ruin the fine dining of other patrons: where else is the child going
to learn public manners? If you *snort* at them and suggest "home", you'll
be assaulted with the "I have a right to take my child wherever I choose"
argument. I swear, you can't win fer losin' sometimes.
Noelle
news:3A74CE...@dial.pipex.com...
> We went to the Genius of Rome exhibition at the Royal Academy today,
> fantastic paintings by Caravaggio etc. loaned mainly by the Vatican. A
> little crowded but we were there early enough to get a good viewing
> without too many bodies nearby.
First of all, I'm so jealous that you got to see this.
> Why do people bring children and even babies to an exhibition? There
> were some well behaved 10/11 year olds but a 3 year old fell over and
> started screaming and a several babies were "fussing". Why inflict your
> child on people who are trying to enjoy a peaceful Sunday morning
> exhibition. When everyone is talking quietly, a child saying "apple"
> over and over again while mummy and daddy look at a still life can get
> right on one's nerves.
When I was 5, my dad took me to a planetarium and museum for the first time.
When I was 10 or 11, and my younger brother was 4 or 5, we went again. As I
had done before, I sat in rapt silence and listened as the lecturer pointed
out the stars. My little brother fell asleep. At least he didn't "fuss
quietly." At this age, I could tell you who Paul Klee and Marc Chagall were,
and I could identify all kinds of dinosaurs.
When I was 9, my parents took me to the "AD 79" Pompeii exhibit. I
discovered Roman mythology for the first time, and was utterly spellbound.
My parents bought me three (adult level) books about Rome and Pompeii, and
when I went back to school, I tried to tell everyone I knew about all the
exciting things I'd seen. No one cared. I started checking out books on
Greek, Roman and Norse mythology from the library. I knew the entire Greek
and Roman pantheons when I was in the 3rd grade.
When I was 11, we went to the Chinese Bronze Age exhibit and got to see
things like the statues of soldiers that had been buried for hundreds of
years. At age 11, I could tell you exactly what the Bronze Age was and what
sort of artwork was coming out of China at that time.
When I was 13, I went to the Smithsonian. While my classmates and tourmates
were fidgety and bored, I stared, fascinated, at artwork and exhibits out of
dreams. I could have happily spent the entire week of the tour wandering
around the Smithsonian.
I'm grateful for these visits to the museums, because they shaped my life. I
knew how to act in a museum, and these visits woke up interests in me that
are still flourishing. I'm sorry your experience was disrupted, and I know
that I was the exception rather than the rule, but maybe one of those kids
was affected in a positive way by the experience. I realize this may sound
like one of those "if it saves even one child, it's worth it", and I firmly
agree that NO child should be taken to a museum unless their parents are
willing to control and discipline them if they don't act the way they
should. Still, I'm unwilling to say that children should be kept out of
museums altogether.
> Still, glad I went but would have preferred a childfree viewing.
Part of me takes exception at statements like this, but I recognize that I
was hardly a typical child.
--
Come on, you raver, you seer of visions
Come on, you painter, you piper, you prisoner, and shine!
--Pink Floyd
http://www.fastlane.net/~gnoelle
brav...@my-deja.com
Last week, I went to a Chinese buffet restaurant and was seated near
two little screechers. Fortunately, they didn't screech too much, and
I was out of there shortly after.
One thing I noticed, and I was wondering if anyone else has ever seen
this, is one couple brought in food, a McDonald's Happy Meal, for thier
little brat! I saw this happen once before(I don't eat out often) at a
little jambalaya place, when a couple with three little ones brought
Happy Meals in for the brats while the parents had their Jambalaya.
Seems to me if the food isn't suitable for the kids, than neither is
the restaurant, so why go there in the first place? My parents would
NEVER have even considered bringing in food from one restaurant into
another. In fact, it used to be most restaurants wouldn't let you in
if you brought in food.
Not only do I not like screechlings, I don't want to smell McGreasy
while I'm trying to eat real food!
When are they going to learn the whole world isn't suitable for kids!
KB
http://members.tripod.com/prisonersix
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
naomi
wrote:
Concurring here...I *hated* school trips to museums and planetariums
and libraries and such, because the whole experience was so incredibly
dumbed down and laid out presentation-style, and I couldn't tell what
was going on because there was always some misbehaving classmate
ruining it for me, and probably for all the adults there too.
But when I went on my own, with my parents or with the various museum
clubs I belonged to as a kid, I loved it. The difference was that I
knew how to behave, I was supervised, and the kids I was there with
were all as enthralled by it all as I was, so we paid attention. These
were not typical kids either- we'd be called "gifted" nowadays and it
would actually mean something.
As much as my parents screwed up my formative years, I do have to
credit them with encouraging my curiosity and allowing me to have
experiences like this. I never felt a need to misbehave in these
situations, because I was never bored.
(Gee, a lesson for lurking parents everywhere...find out what your
child enjoys, and pursue it in a child-appropriate environment,
instead of dragging them to activity after activity that they probably
don't care about, plonking them in front of the TV, or worse yet,
dragging them to adult activities they're not ready for or interested
in where they can disrupt the adults!)
Naomi
Anthony J. Bryant
>
> Part of me takes exception at statements like this, but I recognize that I
> was hardly a typical child.
This is the thing. Most parents today think their children are superior to all
others, regardless of external evidence to the contrary. You were obviously one
of the ones who *was*.
I just wish parents would exercise more sense and discrimination.
Tony
Charles Aptaker
feeling that they won't stay well behaved, the trouble is that most
children are anything but well behaved.
Noelle
news:615a7tsi1lv6jl82r...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 29 Jan 2001 06:38:20 -0800, Charles Aptaker
> <xk...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>
> >I have no problem with well behaved children, apart from the nagging
> >feeling that they won't stay well behaved, the trouble is that most
> >children are anything but well behaved.
>
> mentioned. I feel like I'm waiting for the Brat Bomb to drop.
Good points, both of you, but I'd like to think that lurking among those
children may be developing tastes and aptitudes for art. Maybe I'm just
overly optimistic. Some of those kids may be getting their only exposure to
culture, especially if they're on school trips.
That being said, some of the worst-behaved kids in public I've ever seen
were my own classmates on field trips. :( I was embarrassed to be seen with
them.
Charles Aptaker
understand my unease; "but they're behaving so well"..
Grim wrote:
>
> On Mon, 29 Jan 2001 06:38:20 -0800, Charles Aptaker
> <xk...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>
> >I have no problem with well behaved children, apart from the nagging
> >feeling that they won't stay well behaved, the trouble is that most
> >children are anything but well behaved.
>
> Even well-behaved children set me on edge, for the exact reason you
> mentioned. I feel like I'm waiting for the Brat Bomb to drop.
>
> Grim
Samantha, A Certain Red-Haired Sprite of Evil
>Concurring here...I *hated* school trips to museums and planetariums
>and libraries and such, because the whole experience was so incredibly
>dumbed down and laid out presentation-style, and I couldn't tell what
>was going on because there was always some misbehaving classmate
>ruining it for me, and probably for all the adults there too.
Oh, I agree. I hated being dragged around exhibits with other kids. I
wanted to know the really interesting information and I never got it.
Still, there was always the thrill of getting out of class... ;)
What those trips taught me, though, is that presentations are no fun. When
going through London's various museums with the rest of my university
class, then, I just ducked the tourguide and met the group at the end. I
spent hours wandering around, spending time on what I was most interested
in and getting close to the exhibits (instead of lurking behind twenty
people).
It's nice not to have to deal with tours anymore.
>But when I went on my own, with my parents or with the various museum
>clubs I belonged to as a kid, I loved it. The difference was that I
>knew how to behave, I was supervised, and the kids I was there with
>were all as enthralled by it all as I was, so we paid attention. These
>were not typical kids either- we'd be called "gifted" nowadays and it
>would actually mean something.
True. Even when I wasn't overly interested, I was at least well-behaved.
My parents encouraged me to learn more about what I was interested in and I
don't know how many times I dragged my poor mother through the historical
society in our home town. When I discovered an interest in music, my
mother would take me to hear the symphony every time it played.
Even in the midst of a small town, I still developed interests most people
never did.
--
Samantha
^v^*^v^*^v^*^v^*^v^*^v^*^v^*^v^*^v^*^v^*^v^*^v^*^v^*^v^*^v^*^v^*^v^*^v^*^v^
"But she knows she has a curse on her, a curse she
cannot win. For if someone gets too close to her,
the pins stick farther in." ~Tim Burton
And knowing is half the battle.
>Even well-behaved children set me on edge, for the exact reason you
>mentioned. I feel like I'm waiting for the Brat Bomb to drop.
It's like this with me. And sooner or later the screeeching and the wailing
begins and I have to axe murder the parents and sell the kids to the creepy guy
by the bathroom just for a little peace and quiet.
--
"When life hands you a lemon, pull out a gun and start shooting."
"It's all fun and games until somebody gets eaten." - Louis
http://login.internettrash.com/users/lots42/index.html - Jan 27
Pre-wedding pudding!
Gutterboy
>>I have no problem with well behaved children, apart from the nagging
>>feeling that they won't stay well behaved, the trouble is that most
>>children are anything but well behaved.
>
>Even well-behaved children set me on edge, for the exact reason you
>mentioned. I feel like I'm waiting for the Brat Bomb to drop.
A year or so ago, one poster referred to a non-Fussing Quietly bambino as a
"ba-bomb" -- in the sense that you're never quite sure when it's going to go
off -- and I completely understood her.
Gutterboy
-----------------
"Kids are the most darling thing and funny little things on earth...I love the
little angles." -- Poster to the A0L Parenting Board
Meri
>One thing I noticed, and I was wondering if anyone else has ever seen
>this, is one couple brought in food, a McDonald's Happy Meal, for thier
>little brat! I saw this happen once before(I don't eat out often) at a
>little jambalaya place, when a couple with three little ones brought
>Happy Meals in for the brats while the parents had their Jambalaya.
>
>Seems to me if the food isn't suitable for the kids, than neither is
>the restaurant, so why go there in the first place? My parents would
>NEVER have even considered bringing in food from one restaurant into
>another. In fact, it used to be most restaurants wouldn't let you in
>if you brought in food.
Actually, we used to do this back when I was a little kid. Mom and
Dad and even little sprog-ly me liked Chinese and Mexican and
different types of foods. The little brother? McDonalds. And that's
all. So if we wanted to go out and get something, we had to get him
his Happy Meal, cuz he could not be forced to eat anything but burgers
and fries.
Twelve years later, not much has changed.
Meri
Mary
How old is he now? My brother, to the best of my recollection, never
ordered anything but a cheeseburger in a restaurant until he was 14.
Now he actually LIKES trying new things and has traveled to some fairly
out of the way places (3 years in Samoa for one) and ate the local food
and liked it.
Of course, he's 37 now. :-)
Mary
Meri
>How old is he now? My brother, to the best of my recollection, never
>ordered anything but a cheeseburger in a restaurant until he was 14.
>Now he actually LIKES trying new things and has traveled to some fairly
>out of the way places (3 years in Samoa for one) and ate the local food
>and liked it.
>
>Of course, he's 37 now. :-)
>
>Mary
He's almost 17 and it's pretty much the same. Only now he'll add in
pizza and every now and then, some mexican. That's about all he'll
eat. You can't take that boy to any kind of ethnic restaurant.
Mary
Too bad, he's the one missing out. I mean, all YOU need to do is
exclude him when you go out.
Meri
>
>Too bad, he's the one missing out. I mean, all YOU need to do is
>exclude him when you go out.
>
>Mary
Yep, in practice. But that's hard to put in theoy when the only times
I want to and can afford to go out to nice restaurants is with mom
(college student, limited income), and he's her golden boy (but I
won't go into that rant now).
Meri
Cat
> One thing I noticed, and I was wondering if anyone else has ever seen
> this, is one couple brought in food, a McDonald's Happy Meal, for thier
> little brat! I saw this happen once before(I don't eat out often) at a
> little jambalaya place, when a couple with three little ones brought
> Happy Meals in for the brats while the parents had their Jambalaya.
Ironically, my mother would have to bring a peanut butter and jelly
sandwich for me anytime the family wanted to eat at the local McDonald's
or the pizza place. That's right. I was a child who did not LIKE
hamburgers, nor pizza. Note also that we never went to anything but
"family restaurants" until I was at least nine or ten, and only then
after we'd been taught how to behave in public.
When my mother, in her overly paranoid fashion, questioned the doc,
nervous because I chose vegetable protein and fruit sugars on wheat over
animal lard, he told her, "She knows what's best for her body. Trust me,
she's eating better than you are."
Mom always DID question my behaviors, sometimes just because they were
MINE if there was no better reason.
Cat
--
The Cat House
http://www.feline.org
Phone+Fax: 877.278.8075
Cat
> The little brother? McDonalds. And that's
> all. So if we wanted to go out and get something, we had to get him
> his Happy Meal, cuz he could not be forced to eat anything but burgers
> and fries.
>
> Twelve years later, not much has changed.
That must be one sexy bod he's sportin' these days. :)
Scott Eiler
Grim <num...@fussing.quietly> wrote:
>On Mon, 29 Jan 2001 06:38:20 -0800, Charles Aptaker
><xk...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>
>>feeling that they won't stay well behaved, the trouble is that most
>>children are anything but well behaved.
>
>mentioned. I feel like I'm waiting for the Brat Bomb to drop.
Exactly. An art museum with children in it, is like a field with unexploded
mines in it. Maybe there's only one, and maybe it won't explode, but who
wants to take chances?
----- Scott Eiler ----- B{D> ----- http://www.eilertech.com -----
Submitted by pocket calculator.
"Well, when we're born, at least we don't get coughed up from our mother's mouth!"
"Coming out the other end, how is any better?"
-- Wolf Read.
Gutterboy
>One thing I noticed, and I was wondering if anyone else has ever seen
>this, is one couple brought in food, a McDonald's Happy Meal, for thier
>little brat! I saw this happen once before(I don't eat out often) at a
>little jambalaya place, when a couple with three little ones brought
>Happy Meals in for the brats while the parents had their Jambalaya.
>
>Seems to me if the food isn't suitable for the kids, than neither is
>the restaurant, so why go there in the first place?
Two weeks ago (before the spinal-fortitude restaurant incident), I had gone to
an extremely nice restaurant way out in the country ... huge wood-burning
fireplace, cozy rooms, superb Creole-French cuisine. Had a wonderful meal and
great service. It was a cold, clear night outside, and the place was so cozy
and relaxing, it seemed like a great place to finish dinner with a Scotch or
brandy and maybe a cigar.
And then They arrived, and They were three women and two men with two little
boys who began running around the table even as the women kept babbling, "Now,
honeysitdown, now honeysitdown..." (The men took no notice of their wives,
their sprog, or anything. I never even heard them speak.)
When the waitress came over with the menus, Their first question, before
examining the menus, was: "He wants fried chicken, and he wants spaghetti. Can
you do that?"
My thoughts of relaxing for another hour went *pop*, and I signaled for the
check.
John & Mari Morgan
>One thing I noticed, and I was wondering if anyone else has ever seen
>this, is one couple brought in food, a McDonald's Happy Meal, for thier
>little brat! I saw this happen once before(I don't eat out often) at a
>little jambalaya place, when a couple with three little ones brought
>Happy Meals in for the brats while the parents had their Jambalaya.
*big grin* Upscale Italian Restaurant I used to work at would throw
people out for doing this kind of thing. (Although, to give them
credit, they did allow one man at a business luncheon who had severe
food allergies to eat the lunch he'd brought along, but I think he'd
called first and explained the situation to the manager.)
Mari
brav...@my-deja.com
I have a friend like that, who won't eat any ethnic cuisine, sticks to
meat and potatoes. This guy actually ordered a burger in a Greek
restaurant, but the waiter talked him into a Gyro sandwich, which he
didn't like. Oh well.
Your response surprised me because my fiancee' told me she has seen
people many times try to bring in food for the kids, and every time,
except this one, the restaurant turned them away. My fiancee' was very
surprised because this was the first time she ever saw a restaurant let
a family get away with that.
Still, I don't think it's a good thing to do.
My 2 cents.
KB
Meri
>> Twelve years later, not much has changed.
>
>I have a friend like that, who won't eat any ethnic cuisine, sticks to
>meat and potatoes. This guy actually ordered a burger in a Greek
>restaurant, but the waiter talked him into a Gyro sandwich, which he
>didn't like. Oh well.
>
>Your response surprised me because my fiancee' told me she has seen
>people many times try to bring in food for the kids, and every time,
>except this one, the restaurant turned them away. My fiancee' was very
>surprised because this was the first time she ever saw a restaurant let
>a family get away with that.
They never tried to pull that stunt at random restaurants, just our
favorite chinese place that we've been going to as long as I can
remember. The management there knew us, and that we (being the
parents) tipped well and we (being the kids) were usually well
behaved.
>Still, I don't think it's a good thing to do.
Me either. Of course, when I was a kid, I staunchly refused to eat a
lot of "American" food like meatloaf and black eyed peas. But that
meant I didn't get anything else either. Ah well, the youngest always
seem to get the special treatment. Maybe after dealing with me, they
were just tired of bothering with him.
>My 2 cents.
>
>KB
I'll see your 2 cents and raise you 3.
Meri
Charles Aptaker
John & Mari Morgan
>I've also found that narrow food tastes are indicative of narrow interests
>in general. BORING!!
*slight shrug* I've found that some people just don't care about food
very much, but that it doesn't necessarily correlate with whether they
are boring/narrow people or not. One of my exes was extremely
adventurous about sports and outdoorsy type things (he thought
skydiving was tame, for example), but if a whiff of garlic came out of
the kitchen he was headed for Burger King because "dinner was going to
be too spicy". He was happy as a clam with the same exact lunch
_every_ day of bologna and Kraft singles on store-brand white bread
(no condiments). He was also the only person I've ever met who thought
freeze-dried camping food was tasty. But he took Emerson and Thoreau
along when he went backpacking...
Me, I've got fairly moderate tastes in food (I'll choke down 'most
everything but there IS a lot of stuff I dislike and would seriously
prefer avoiding - like that blasted sushi), but pretty narrow tastes
in most other realms with the exception of a fairly dramatic few, and
I'd be the first to admit that I'm pretty dang boring if liking/being
interested in _everything_ is the preferred method of quantifying
whether someone's boring or not. :-)
Mari
NellePas
<xk...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
> When everyone is talking quietly, a child saying "apple"
>over and over again while mummy and daddy look at a still life can get
>right on one's nerves.
>
For adults, looking at art is a contemplative activity which is nearly
impossible in the best of gallery/museum settings, let alone while
trying to ignore someone else's screaming kid. Disruptive kids
should be left with a sitter. Actually, I think it's good for kids to
see art from an early age. But there should be special viewing times
for the kids. The fact that it's important for kids to see art
doesn't mean it's okay to deprive adults of the opportunity to see it.
INTERESTING FACTOID:
A number of years ago some famous psychologist (Piaget maybe?)
interviewed little kids who were being dragged through the Met in New
York City. He asked them "where did these paintings come from?" More
than half of the kids responded "from a painting factory". Kind of
suggests that helping the kids to understand "art" wasn't a top
priority with their parents.
brav...@my-deja.com
My fiancee told me she had never seen a restaurant let someone get away
with that until that time.
I remember an incident back when I was in college when my brother and
sister and I went to a Mexican place together one night for dinner.
There was a family group in front of me with a little girl probably
around 4 or so. The little girl at one point said "But I don't want to
eat here, I want to eat at McDonald's." When they were being seated,
one of them said how many were in their party, the little girl said "uh
uh 'cause I'm not eating." What a little brat.
As we were leaving, this group was still at their table and sure
enough, the little brat didn't have any food, but at the same time, she
was being quiet, not screeching, etc. At least the whole evening
wasn't ruined.
KB
FaustAngel
>around 4 or so. The little girl at one point said "But I don't want to
>eat here, I want to eat at McDonald's."
I had a table like that once when I was waitressing. The breeder sow had the
nerve to ask me to drive to McDonald's to get her kid something.
"Um. No, I don't have a car." I didn't want to be rude and shove the menu
someplace personal, which was my first instinct.
"Well," she says, looking out the window, "It's right over there, can't you
walk?"
--anne
snip tubes to reply
Mary
Seriously? This idiot thought that the WAITSTAFF at a restaurant would
run across the street to fetch junk food for baybee? Holy Shit.
Now that's entitlement.
Last week I was on a business trip with a cow-orker and we went to a
joint called Dick's Last Resort in San Diego. He was telling me about
how he was here with the fambly and his 4-yo kid complained because
they didn't go to McD's. His response was, No, we are NOT going to
McDonald's on vacation. If you must have a hamburger, you order it
here.
Imagine, actually telling the KID what to do rather than the other way
around.
Mary
sassinak
FaustAngel wrote:
>
> I had a table like that once when I was waitressing. The breeder sow had the
> nerve to ask me to drive to McDonald's to get her kid something.
> "Um. No, I don't have a car." I didn't want to be rude and shove the menu
> someplace personal, which was my first instinct.
> "Well," she says, looking out the window, "It's right over there, can't you
> walk?"
You should have told her that McD's was indeed "right over there" and
therefore not too far for HER to walk.
sassinak
sassinak
brav...@my-deja.com
I wonder how often that happens, you could probably count the times on
one hand. Kids these days rule the roost, and the parents do nothing
more than cater to their every whim. This person deserves to be
complimented on his letting the little brat know who's boss.
KB
http://members.tripod.com/prisonersix
Gutterboy
>I wonder how often that happens, you could probably count the times on
>one hand. Kids these days rule the roost, and the parents do nothing
>more than cater to their every whim.
I agree, but don't you mean "rule the roast"?