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Paying Addicts Not to Breed

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Ilene Bilenky

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Nov 8, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/8/97
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A notice on CNN online today- a woman who has adopted 4 children of
addicted "mothers" (loose term) with her husband has started a personal
program to pay addicts to get tubals/vasectomies. The addict has to make
the arrangements (with some guidance) and get the deed done and bring
documentation to this woman, and she hands over $200 in cash. She clearly
acknowledges knowing that these people are doing so for the cash to get
drugs, and feels that preventing more suffering addicted babies is worth
it.
Methinks she'll get flamed somewhat? I wish I knew how to contact her to
offer support. I think it's a great, although desperate, idea. I believe
the article said at least 2 addicts have followed through so far.
Ilene B

Dorothea M. Rovner

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Nov 9, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/9/97
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In article <ibilenky-081...@ts002d23.box-ma.concentric.net>,
ibil...@cris.com (Ilene Bilenky) wrote:

> Methinks she'll get flamed somewhat? I wish I knew how to contact her to
> offer support. I think it's a great, although desperate, idea. I believe
> the article said at least 2 addicts have followed through so far.

Methinks she better prepare to get sued. Bet you *anything you like*
that at least one of these women will go sobbing to a lawyer about how
she was tricked into being sterilized, and she didn't know what she was
agreeing to, and she wants to have a baaaaaaybeeeeeeeee...

Dorothea

--
Dorothea M. Rovner |
Gradual Student <*> | High Priestess of Mung
dmrovner (at) students.wisc.edu |

Hope Munro Smith

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Nov 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/10/97
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In article <dorothea-ya023180...@news.doit.wisc.edu>,

doro...@usa.net (Dorothea M. Rovner) wrote:

> Methinks she better prepare to get sued. Bet you *anything you like*
> that at least one of these women will go sobbing to a lawyer about how
> she was tricked into being sterilized, and she didn't know what she was
> agreeing to, and she wants to have a baaaaaaybeeeeeeeee...
>

Think about what you're saying for a minute. You're supporting
the sterilization of people who in the view of dominant society
have "no right" to reproduce -- e.g. drug addicts, welfare recipients,
minorities, etc. In other words, you're just buying
right back into the system, rather than rebelling against it.

-Hope Munro Smith
(also a childfree graduate student)

doug h.

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Nov 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/10/97
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In article <647okb$h47$1...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Peggy Currid <cur...@staff.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>Hope Munro Smith <hop...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote:

>> minorities, etc.

> Nice try at putting words in someone's mouth. I don't recall that anyone
> said anything about supporting the sterilization of minorities.

Right, just the sterilization of "undesirables." Next stop, Auschwitz.


Dorothea M. Rovner

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Nov 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/10/97
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In article <34660506...@hermes.rdrop.com>, myt...@agora.rdrop.com
(Laurel Halbany) wrote:

> Instead, why not pay her to have sex only with men who can prove they
> have had vasectomies, or with women?

If she's an addict, she has a rather greater-than-average probability
of selling her body. I don't think most people who do that check into
the reproductive status of the buyer.

Peggy Currid

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Nov 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/10/97
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Hope Munro Smith <hop...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote:
>doro...@usa.net (Dorothea M. Rovner) wrote:
>
>> Methinks she better prepare to get sued. Bet you *anything you like*
>> that at least one of these women will go sobbing to a lawyer about how
>> she was tricked into being sterilized, and she didn't know what she was
>> agreeing to, and she wants to have a baaaaaaybeeeeeeeee...
>>
>
>Think about what you're saying for a minute. You're supporting
>the sterilization of people who in the view of dominant society
>have "no right" to reproduce -- e.g. drug addicts, welfare recipients,

Yep. What's wrong with that?

>minorities, etc.

Nice try at putting words in someone's mouth. I don't recall that anyone
said anything about supporting the sterilization of minorities.

>In other words, you're just buying


>right back into the system, rather than rebelling against it.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point. In my view, the system supports
and encourages unfit people to have children (or at least the system does
nothing to actively discourage it). Not having children, and taking a
stance against those who breed unthinkingly, *is* rebelling against the
system.

Peggy

--
"Granola pisses me off." -- Eric Cartman

Laurel Halbany

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Nov 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/10/97
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doro...@usa.net (Dorothea M. Rovner) wrote:

> Methinks she better prepare to get sued. Bet you *anything you like*
>that at least one of these women will go sobbing to a lawyer about how
>she was tricked into being sterilized, and she didn't know what she was
>agreeing to, and she wants to have a baaaaaaybeeeeeeeee...

Instead, why not pay her to have sex only with men who can prove they


have had vasectomies, or with women?

----------------------------------------------------------
Laurel Halbany
mythago@twisty_little_maze.com
(Substitute dashes for underscores to remove spamblock)

naomi pardue

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Nov 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/10/97
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Hope Munro Smith (hop...@mail.utexas.edu) wrote:
> Think about what you're saying for a minute. You're supporting
> the sterilization of people who in the view of dominant society
> have "no right" to reproduce -- e.g. drug addicts, welfare recipients,
> minorities, etc. In other words, you're just buying

> right back into the system, rather than rebelling against it.

I didn't see anything about sterilizing minorities. Or welfare recipients
for that matter...

Naomi

Ilene Bilenky

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Nov 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/10/97
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In article <647okb$h47$1...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, cur...@staff.uiuc.edu (Peggy
Currid) wrote:

> Hope Munro Smith <hop...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote:

As I read the article- the woman has nothing to do with it (except for
placing the ad offering money) until the addict shows her proof of
sterilization. Then she hands over the cash. Not sure I see where she gets
sued.. I imagine she checked into this herself.
Ilene B

Livia

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Nov 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/11/97
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myt...@agora.rdrop.com (Laurel Halbany) wrote:

>doro...@usa.net (Dorothea M. Rovner) wrote:
>
>> Methinks she better prepare to get sued. Bet you *anything you like*
>>that at least one of these women will go sobbing to a lawyer about how
>>she was tricked into being sterilized, and she didn't know what she was
>>agreeing to, and she wants to have a baaaaaaybeeeeeeeee...
>

>Instead, why not pay her to have sex only with men who can prove they
>have had vasectomies, or with women?

If "she" is an addict, she may not have great impulse control,
especially when high. And withholding the money after she's slipped
and had fertile sex (and is now carrying a crack baby, perhaps) is
rather like the barn door and the long-gone horse.

E l i s e R a u s c h e n b a c h

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Nov 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/11/97
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On Mon, 10 Nov 1997 21:18:56 GMT, myt...@agora.rdrop.com (Laurel
Halbany) wrote:


>Instead, why not pay her to have sex only with men who can prove they
>have had vasectomies, or with women?

Nice idea, but a little tougher to enforce, no? Follow the woman for
the rest of her life and tally up who she has sex with vs. check for a
certificate of some kind from the surgeon.

Elise

Hope Munro Smith

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Nov 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/11/97
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In article <647okb$h47$1...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, cur...@staff.uiuc.edu (Peggy
Currid) wrote:


> >Think about what you're saying for a minute. You're supporting
> >the sterilization of people who in the view of dominant society
> >have "no right" to reproduce -- e.g. drug addicts, welfare recipients,
>

> Yep. What's wrong with that?
>

What's wrong with that is that you are assuming one set of priviledges
for yourself (the decision on whether or not to reproduce) and another
for another group of people.
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that you in particular were
suggesting the sterilization of minorities. However, you need to
realize that once this course of action is advocated for "undesirables"
it becomes harder to contain. Look at what they did with the
mentally disabled and juvenille deliquents back in the 1950s.
Do we really want to go back to that? Did you know that our government
tricked people in India, Asia and Latin America into sterilization because
they believed that was the "answer" to poverty -- when the real cause is
the centuries of economic exploitation and opportunism that European and
American businesses have brought about in the so-called "Third World?"

Again, I don't want to suggest that you,personally, are part of this,
just to point this out to you and encourage you to consider another side
of the issue.

> >In other words, you're just buying
> >right back into the system, rather than rebelling against it.
>

> Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point. In my view, the system supports
> and encourages unfit people to have children (or at least the system does
> nothing to actively discourage it). Not having children, and taking a
> stance against those who breed unthinkingly, *is* rebelling against the
> system.

Again, I apologize. What I am arguing is basically philosophical,
so I hope you don't take it personally. What I am trying to argue
is that our society does not encourage unfit people to have children
-- rather it does the opposite. It tries to have unfit people
sterilized or control their fertility with things like norplant, etc.
Or it starts up "self-help" groups for minority teenagers to boost
their self-esteem so that they won't have babies too early in life.
It then encourages those who are at the socio-economic level of
the people in this newsgroup to reproduce because they are what
society thinks of as "ideal parents."
I guess I just know too much about the history of this country to
think that giving cash incentives for sterilization or norplant
are a good idea. People who are on welfare or on drugs are not
there because they have babies. Neither are they in that situation
because of some massive conspiracy to keep certain groups down. They are
there because of the demise of real employment and economic opportunities
for everyone
in the contemporary world, as well as the tendency for our society
to blame everything on personal irresponsibility rather than
structural conditions that make these problems so complex.

I hope that I have made it clear by now that I am not some troll
accusing this newsgroup of being white supremacists or anything
like that. I started looking at the posts because I am in the same
situation that you all are in. However, I cannot just sit aside
and let this issue go by without contributing my viewpoint.

Thank you very much for your time.

-Hope Munro Smith
UT at Austin

naomi pardue

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Nov 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/11/97
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Distribution:

Hope Munro Smith (hop...@mail.utexas.edu) wrote:

> In article <647okb$h47$1...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, cur...@staff.uiuc.edu (Peggy
> Currid) wrote:
> > >Think about what you're saying for a minute. You're supporting
> > >the sterilization of people who in the view of dominant society
> > >have "no right" to reproduce -- e.g. drug addicts, welfare recipients,
> >
> > Yep. What's wrong with that?
> >
>
> What's wrong with that is that you are assuming one set of priviledges
> for yourself (the decision on whether or not to reproduce) and another
> for another group of people.


> I'm sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that you in particular were
> suggesting the sterilization of minorities. However, you need to
> realize that once this course of action is advocated for "undesirables"
> it becomes harder to contain. Look at what they did with the
> mentally disabled and juvenille deliquents back in the 1950s.

But nobody is suggesting FORCING these women to be sterilized. An
individual person is merely offering some financial incentive for a woman
to voluntarily choose to do so.

> Do we really want to go back to that? Did you know that our government
> tricked people in India, Asia and Latin America into sterilization because
> they believed that was the "answer" to poverty -- when the real cause is
> the centuries of economic exploitation and opportunism that European and
> American businesses have brought about in the so-called "Third World?"
>

Of course having 15 kids is not a very effective way of getting OUT of
the poverty that may have been started by economic exploitation but is
now primarily the result of overpopulation and lack of resources.

> Again, I apologize. What I am arguing is basically philosophical,
> so I hope you don't take it personally. What I am trying to argue
> is that our society does not encourage unfit people to have children
> -- rather it does the opposite. It tries to have unfit people
> sterilized or control their fertility with things like norplant, etc.


And what is wrong with encouraging people who can't care for children to
use birth control?

> It then encourages those who are at the socio-economic level of
> the people in this newsgroup to reproduce because they are what
> society thinks of as "ideal parents."

It is certainly better, IMHO, for children to be born to parents who are
financially and emotionally fit to take care of them, rather than to 15
year olds and poverty stricken drug addicts ... (Which is not to say that
people who don't want kids should be pressured to have them, but only
that those who are NOT able to be decent parents should be pressured to
NOT have them.)

> are a good idea. People who are on welfare or on drugs are not
> there because they have babies.


But having repeated babies is an excellent way to keep from getting OFF
welfare. (You can't get job training or a job for that matter if you have
to care for a newborn and a toddler and a preschooler .. and even if you
could get a job, you couldn't pay for the daycare. So discouragign women
on welfare from having MORE children is, to my mind, a reasonable plan.

Neither are they in that situation
> because of some massive conspiracy to keep certain groups down. They are
> there because of the demise of real employment and economic opportunities
> for everyone

My local paper has 2-3 pages of want ads every day. In large cities there
are typically 50-100 pages of want ads. Lack of employment?

Naomi

Hope Munro Smith

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Nov 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/11/97
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In article <dorothea-ya023180...@news.doit.wisc.edu>,

doro...@usa.net (Dorothea M. Rovner) wrote:

> In article <34660506...@hermes.rdrop.com>, myt...@agora.rdrop.com


> (Laurel Halbany) wrote:
>
> > Instead, why not pay her to have sex only with men who can prove they
> > have had vasectomies, or with women?
>

> If she's an addict, she has a rather greater-than-average probability
> of selling her body. I don't think most people who do that check into
> the reproductive status of the buyer.

If the woman who was offering the bucks really cared, she would
pay for each addicted mother to go through drug rehab, and then
help them find a job so they could take care of their own children.
Most addicts continue to be so because they can't afford the cost
of getting off drugs.

-Hope, the grad student

Dorothea M. Rovner

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Nov 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/11/97
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In article <hopems-1111...@dial-80-3.ots.utexas.edu>,

hop...@mail.utexas.edu (Hope Munro Smith) wrote:

> If the woman who was offering the bucks really cared, she would
> pay for each addicted mother to go through drug rehab, and then
> help them find a job so they could take care of their own children.
> Most addicts continue to be so because they can't afford the cost
> of getting off drugs.

Tell me another one. Anywhere *I've* ever been in the US, drug rehab
has been available on a sliding fee scale, usually government-subsidized.

Used to work at such a facility myself, in fact.

And AA and NA are free, aside from transportation to meetings.

Ilene Bilenky

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Nov 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/12/97
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I wonder if the poster has any real world experience here?
I do.
"The cost of getting off drugs" is precisely Medicaid paying for a detox.
(again. and again.) There is NO cost to getting off cocaine, as it is not
physically addictive, that is, needs no medical treatment if stopping. All
a detox does for cocaine is locks the door so the addict can't get more
coke. A rather expensive way to lock a door.
I get tired of liberals (I assume it's "liberals") who keep saying "money
for treatments beds" as if every addict can use it, and every addiction
has treatment. People often check into detox to lower their addiction dose
so it's easier to keep using. They often check in at certain times of the
month because they've used up their welfare check and can't afford drugs
until the next check comes.
The article I posted originally about is about a woman who does *really
care*, havind adopted 4 drug-addicted babies of "mothers". And she's only
offering a financial incentive to get permanent birth control.
Does the poster really believe that drug addicts just need enough money to
go to the Betty Ford Center and will then walk into a job with support?
Dream on. And keep those tax dollars flowing.
Ilene B

Ilene Bilenky

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Nov 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/12/97
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I'm afraid the ivory tower naivete (and rhetoric) is rearing its head here.
By the way, the original post didn't involve governments *at all*- a
private citizen decided to pay addicts to get sterilized (after she
adopted 4 babies from addicts and saw them detox- now that's a real
liberalizing experience)
Hope, many of us are quite well-versed in the political rhetoric (not
invented recently or in university) of capitalistic imperialism etc. etc.
I saw starving kids in Haiti. Maybe the French shouldn't have taken all
the hardwood forests down to make millions and maybe the Marines shouldn't
have been there in 1915 and so on and so forth.. however, the only useful
thing I felt I did there was give Depo-Provera shots in health clinics--
and they weren't then approved in the U.S. Nuthin' like a little kid with
protruding belly and reddish hair from protein inadequacy.
I not-so-gently suggest that the grad student needs to get out a little
more often.
Ilene B "tired of middle-class knee-jerk righteous liberal academics"


> Hope Munro Smith (hop...@mail.utexas.edu) wrote:

> : Do we really want to go back to that? Did you know that our government

Jean Coyle

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Nov 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/12/97
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Ilene Bilenky wrote:
>
> I'm afraid the ivory tower naivete (and rhetoric) is rearing its head here.
> By the way, the original post didn't involve governments *at all*- a
> private citizen decided to pay addicts to get sterilized (after she
> adopted 4 babies from addicts and saw them detox- now that's a real
> liberalizing experience)
> Hope, many of us are quite well-versed in the political rhetoric (not
> invented recently or in university) of capitalistic imperialism etc. etc.
> I saw starving kids in Haiti. Maybe the French shouldn't have taken all
> the hardwood forests down to make millions and maybe the Marines shouldn't
> have been there in 1915 and so on and so forth.. however, the only useful
> thing I felt I did there was give Depo-Provera shots in health clinics--
> and they weren't then approved in the U.S. Nuthin' like a little kid with
> protruding belly and reddish hair from protein inadequacy.
> I not-so-gently suggest that the grad student needs to get out a little> more often.

I agree Ilene,

And she needn't wander far from her own home to see children living in
cold,filthy, cockroach infested homes with no food in the fridge,
and a 5 yr old in charge of watching two younger kids (all fathered by
different men) while mom is out hooking to feed her crack habit.

All of this luxury of course being funded by our tax dollars.

Jean

Jean Coyle

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Nov 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/12/97
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Hope Munro Smith wrote:
>
> In article <dorothea-ya023180...@news.doit.wisc.edu>,
> doro...@usa.net (Dorothea M. Rovner) wrote:
>
> > In article <34660506...@hermes.rdrop.com>, myt...@agora.rdrop.com
> > (Laurel Halbany) wrote:
> >
> > > Instead, why not pay her to have sex only with men who can prove they
> > > have had vasectomies, or with women?
> >
> > If she's an addict, she has a rather greater-than-average probability
> > of selling her body. I don't think most people who do that check into
> > the reproductive status of the buyer.
>
> If the woman who was offering the bucks really cared, she would
> pay for each addicted mother to go through drug rehab, and then
> help them find a job so they could take care of their own children.
> Most addicts continue to be so because they can't afford the cost
> of getting off drugs.
>
> -Hope, the grad student

Do you really believe that ? All one must do to get treatment is to
present oneself to the nearest emergency and state that you are
depressed as result of your addiction and are seriously considering
suicide. You will then be given a treatment bed..whether you've got
insurance or not.

As for finding a job, if I earning $14 and hour am finding it a
stretch to support 2 kids ,how on earth is an addict, new to recovery
going to swing it on $5.25 an hour minium wage ?

Jean

Hope Munro Smith

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Nov 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/12/97
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In article <ibilenky-270...@ts004d17.box-ma.concentric.net>,
ibil...@cris.com (Ilene Bilenky) wrote:

> I wonder if the poster has any real world experience here?
> I do.
> "The cost of getting off drugs" is precisely Medicaid paying for a detox.
> (again. and again.) There is NO cost to getting off cocaine, as it is not
> physically addictive, that is, needs no medical treatment if stopping. All
> a detox does for cocaine is locks the door so the addict can't get more
> coke. A rather expensive way to lock a door.
> I get tired of liberals (I assume it's "liberals") who keep saying "money
> for treatments beds" as if every addict can use it, and every addiction
> has treatment. People often check into detox to lower their addiction dose
> so it's easier to keep using. They often check in at certain times of the
> month because they've used up their welfare check and can't afford drugs
> until the next check comes.
> The article I posted originally about is about a woman who does *really
> care*, havind adopted 4 drug-addicted babies of "mothers". And she's only
> offering a financial incentive to get permanent birth control.
> Does the poster really believe that drug addicts just need enough money to
> go to the Betty Ford Center and will then walk into a job with support?
> Dream on. And keep those tax dollars flowing.
> Ilene B

Gosh, I'm really surprised that I came off as a knee-jerk liberal.
If anything, I even further towards the political left -- that is,
progressive rather than liberal. I certainly
don't think that just throwing money at a problem will make it go
away, that is why I don't consider myself a knee-jerk liberal.

You're right -- I don't really believe that drug addicts can just check
into Betty Ford -- or AA or NA. And you're right, I'm not an expert on
this subject, and am sorry that I came off as a self-righteous academic
or whatever it was that someone else called me. However, the point I
was trying to make is that why is the woman the news article only
interested in paying off a few addicts when she could use her time
and resources to find solutions that could benefit a larger group of
people? These solutions wouldn't even need to cost money -- she could
encourage her other well-to-do friends to help out in the community,
mentor individuals as
they get off drugs and find work, etc.

It's obvious that what we've got in place doesn't work very well. But I
guess what I am proposing would necessitate a larger shift in the way
people interact with each other than can happen with a few new social
programs or every increasing tax dollars. Since I"m just a folklore major,
I obviously don't
have the expertise or even a plan to work this out. I'm just trying to
offer my own two cents based on things I've read and experienced, or things
my friends and classmates have experienced regarding this issue.

-Hope_

Hope Munro Smith

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Nov 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/12/97
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In article <ibilenky-270...@ts004d20.box-ma.concentric.net>,
ibil...@cris.com (Ilene Bilenky) wrote:

> I guess I think of "liberals" (having lived for years in the People's
> Republic of Cambridge) as people who have overarching theories of "the
> system" and rhetoric of "capitalistic imperialism" and so on to address
> very real daily specific problems. To me, a "progressive" is a liberal
> with a touch of common sense. (I have no idea what label I carry- hate to
> think that belief in reality *as it is now* and preference for personal
> responsibility would make me into a neo-Nazi).

Ack -- I know what you mean! I'm a recent transplant to Texas,
having lived most of my life in New England. This is the essential
difference between me and my sister.

> I sounded a bit harsh on Hope (who, me?) as there was this righteous tone,
> as if readers had never heard of imperialism and so on- perhaps the fervor
> of the recently converted/informed.

Don't worry, I didn't take it personally. I basically am still
working through my recent conversion to progressive politics and obviously
haven't thought thru everything. Didn't want to come off
as self-righteous but that's the difficulties of expressing oneself
on newsgroups. I'm a bit better off in "real time" discussions.

> I think the woman paying addicts not to breed has no particular power in
> society (I don't remember reading that they were at all "well to do") and
> in fact, if she knows addicts enough to meet with them to pay them off,
> may well live in their neighborhoods.

Good point. But interceding in this way is too close to the position
of the religious right for me to be comfortable with it. I'm not
saying that the woman is not altruistic, just that the issue needs
to be considered amongst an historical perspective -- particularly
regarding reproductive rights in the U.S. And that she shouldn't be
surprised if, for example, the African-American community is not
exactly thrilled with this idea. But this is just a hypothetical
thing I'm talking about, not something that would necessarily happen
(as is this whole discussion, for that matter.)

-Hope_

E l i s e R a u s c h e n b a c h

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Nov 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/12/97
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On Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:21:23 -0500, hop...@mail.utexas.edu (Hope Munro
Smith) wrote:

However, the point I
>was trying to make is that why is the woman the news article only
>interested in paying off a few addicts

She did much more than that, Hope. She adopted those addicts' babies
and saved them from a likely horrible childhood shuttled from foster
home to foster home.

Far be it from me to advocate a "1000 points of light" mindset, but
she was doing what she could do --- in the face of incompetent
government and overwhelming problems. I admire her for it.

>These solutions wouldn't even need to cost money -- she could
>encourage her other well-to-do friends to help out in the community,
>mentor individuals as
>they get off drugs and find work, etc.
>

Mentoring *children* works a lot better. Big Brother/Big Sister works
far better than trying to salvage the lives of adults. Better to show
children that it's OK to be smart, to achieve, to get good grades, to
go against the grain to be true to yourself.

Elise

E l i s e R a u s c h e n b a c h

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Nov 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/12/97
to

On Tue, 11 Nov 1997 21:23:02 GMT, jy...@psu.edu (Jackie) wrote:


>Wait a minute, addicts can't afford the cost of getting off drugs???? If
>they can afford to use drugs they can afford to get off drugs.
>
Many addicts can "afford" drugs because they *deal* drugs. If they
get clean, we can hardly expect them to keep dealing in order to pay
for treatment, can we?

Elise


Ilene Bilenky

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Nov 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/12/97
to

In article <hopems-1211...@dial-103-31.ots.utexas.edu>,

hop...@mail.utexas.edu (Hope Munro Smith) wrote:

> In article <ibilenky-270...@ts004d20.box-ma.concentric.net>,
> ibil...@cris.com (Ilene Bilenky) wrote:
>

By the way- the article didn't mention the race of anyone involved. The
woman could well have been of color.
Oh the narrow vision of the middle-class-afflicted.. :0
Ilene B

Brenda Peters

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Nov 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/14/97
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naomi pardue <npa...@indiana.edu> wrote in article
<649tfu$57u$1...@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>...
> (welfare reference partly snipped)

> Neither are they in that situation
> > because of some massive conspiracy to keep certain groups down. They
are
> > there because of the demise of real employment and economic
opportunities
> > for everyone
>
> My local paper has 2-3 pages of want ads every day. In large cities there

> are typically 50-100 pages of want ads. Lack of employment?
>
> Naomi
>

Oh, please. As someone with a Master's degree who sent out over 100
resumes and got only three interviews, I don't see any abundance of
employment. Yes, I did try for MOSTLY jobs that were "beneath" me because
I needed the money. Jobs just aren't that easy to get, and if you have to
suddenly pay for child care AND try to, oh, say, get food too, it just
isn't going to be a happy situation for anyone.

Brenda (who, if she hears ONE more jolly comment about how it's such a
GREAT job market.....)


Brenda Peters

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Nov 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/14/97
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Jean Coyle <jean...@earthlink.net> wrote in article
<3469B1...@earthlink.net>...


> Ilene Bilenky wrote:
> >
> > I'm afraid the ivory tower naivete (and rhetoric) is rearing its head
here.
>

> > I not-so-gently suggest that the grad student needs to get out a
little> more often.

> B "tired of middle-class knee-jerk righteous liberal academics"
> >


Hey, be nice to us righteous liberal grad student academics! If we came
out of our ivory towers, we'd have to compete for jobs with everyone else!
And we might even take 'em away from someone else. An astounding number of
us now are, shall we say, from diverse backgrounds, and we're doing some
amazing things to old theories based on our life experience. Sometimes it
takes a while to work out all the bugs. (hint: besides, not all of us
agree on things, just like all us CFers don't totally agree.)

Brenda (cranky after having had a great conversation with someone about CF
and then having a lousy class)


Kent Parks

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Nov 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/14/97
to

Brenda Peters (71543...@compuserve.com) wrote:
: >
: > My local paper has 2-3 pages of want ads every day. In large cities there

: > are typically 50-100 pages of want ads. Lack of employment?
:
: Oh, please. As someone with a Master's degree who sent out over 100

: resumes and got only three interviews, I don't see any abundance of
: employment. Yes, I did try for MOSTLY jobs that were "beneath" me because
: I needed the money. Jobs just aren't that easy to get, and if you have to
: suddenly pay for child care AND try to, oh, say, get food too, it just
: isn't going to be a happy situation for anyone.
:
: Brenda (who, if she hears ONE more jolly comment about how it's such a
: GREAT job market.....)

Hear, Hear!! Hear, hear, HEAR!!!!!
As ANOTHER one with a Masters, sending out zillions of resumes for jobs
that are "beneath" me just to get my foot in the door, and has had about
the same number of interviews, I am sick of hearing about this "great job
market", too! About 95% of the jobs require at least 2-3 years experience
in the exact kind of job that is being offered (why would someone leave
one job after 3 years and be in the market for one EXACTLY like it?).
OTOH, in the retail/service jobs, they can't get people at all...THAT'S
where all the jobs are, with nobody willing to fill them, it seems. At
least around here.

Don't tell ME how thick the want ads are...

Kent

Hope Munro Smith

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Nov 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/14/97
to

In article <01bcf097$a2a0b3e0$53cd...@usinet.bdleahy.ibm.net>, "Brenda
Peters" <71543...@compuserve.com> wrote:

> Oh, please. As someone with a Master's degree who sent out over 100
> resumes and got only three interviews, I don't see any abundance of
> employment. Yes, I did try for MOSTLY jobs that were "beneath" me because
> I needed the money. Jobs just aren't that easy to get, and if you have to
> suddenly pay for child care AND try to, oh, say, get food too, it just
> isn't going to be a happy situation for anyone.
>
> Brenda (who, if she hears ONE more jolly comment about how it's such a
> GREAT job market.....)

Brenda made the point that I was attempting to make exactly. There is
a definite lack of REAL employment opportunites for people at every
level of education. That is, jobs that allow people to use the
expertise they've gained through education, and/or pay a decent
living wage.


-Hope_

Rabbit

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Nov 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/14/97
to

Brenda Peters wrote:
>
> naomi pardue <npa...@indiana.edu> wrote in article
> <649tfu$57u$1...@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>...
> > (welfare reference partly snipped)
> > Neither are they in that situation
> > > because of some massive conspiracy to keep certain groups down. They
> are
> > > there because of the demise of real employment and economic
> opportunities
> > > for everyone
> >
> > My local paper has 2-3 pages of want ads every day. In large cities there
>
> > are typically 50-100 pages of want ads. Lack of employment?
> >
> > Naomi

That's the same kind of cause=effect reasoning that says that if my
paper only reports three armed robberies and not the five they reported
the previous day, it's obvious that crime rates are falling ...

The number of jobs advertised isn't indicative of the job market; the
statistics rely on how many people are trying to get those jobs. These
are two entirely different numbers.

Rabbit

naomi pardue

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Nov 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/14/97
to

Brenda Peters (71543...@compuserve.com) wrote:
> > My local paper has 2-3 pages of want ads every day. In large cities there
> > are typically 50-100 pages of want ads. Lack of employment?
> > Naomi
> >
>
> Oh, please. As someone with a Master's degree who sent out over 100
> resumes and got only three interviews, I don't see any abundance of
> employment. Yes, I did try for MOSTLY jobs that were "beneath" me because
> I needed the money. Jobs just aren't that easy to get, and if you have to
> suddenly pay for child care AND try to, oh, say, get food too, it just
> isn't going to be a happy situation for anyone.

The particular TYPE of job you want may be hard to find. The hours you
prefer may be hard to find. But if you were willing to flip burgers or
wait tables or punch a cash register 3rd shift at the 7-11 or clean rooms
in a hotel ... you could get A job.

Naomi

Ilene Bilenky

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Nov 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/14/97
to

Well, guess what. Even if you lie and hide your education, if someone
sniffs you out as "too smart" or "overqualified", well, then, you can't
get a job "beneath you. Try it sometime and see.
Ilene B "worst job ever- the onion ring room at Mrs. Paul's Frozen Foods"


In article <64hphq$obm$5...@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>, npa...@indiana.edu

Dorothea M. Rovner

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Nov 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/14/97
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In article <hopems-1011...@dial-70-14.ots.utexas.edu>,

hop...@mail.utexas.edu (Hope Munro Smith) wrote:

> Think about what you're saying for a minute. You're supporting
> the sterilization of people who in the view of dominant society
> have "no right" to reproduce -- e.g. drug addicts, welfare recipients,

> minorities, etc. In other words, you're just buying


> right back into the system, rather than rebelling against it.

Horsepuckey. Read my post again; I didn't support a damn thing.
I merely remarked that this woman's program could have some very
unfortunate consequences for her.

That said, I *do* think it is possible to lose one's so-called
"right" to reproduce. (On my really ornery days, I deny that there
is such a right in the first place; it really oughta be a privilege.)
Drug addiction and abusive behavior should be cause for forfeiture
of that right. (Possibly depending on the drug. My personal jury is
out on this one, although I tend to lean toward proscribing *all*
addictions, from caffeine on up, in reproducers.)

Poverty per se should not be a criterion, IMO, but a serious lack
of effort toward escaping poverty possibly should (although obviously
such a criterion would cause *immense* implementation headaches).

Minority status has *nothing whatever* to do with it, and I
challenge you to find one place where I say it does. I know of the
history of minority sterilization in this country, and I find it
thoroughly appalling. Those who protested it had every right to. It
was disgusting.

What I was saying, essentially, is that a contract is a contract
EXCEPT where it involves sterilization, it seems. Dipshits who have
gotten sterilized and have sued doctors over it later because "they
didn't think" have completely destroyed the landscape for young people
(like me) who really *do* want sterilization. (Note the difference
between this and the sterilization-of-minorities programs: the minorities
were *forcibly* sterilized, often *fraudulently* so, whereas the dipshits
I just mentioned usually had *signed consent forms* and had not been
coerced in any way.)

The woman who pays sterilized addicts is going to find herself in
the same legal morass, is what I was saying. And that's *all* I was
saying.

naomi pardue

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Nov 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/14/97
to

Ilene Bilenky (ibil...@cris.com) wrote:
> I must agree with Naomi- all those computer science majors with 5-10 years
> of experience in Unix and C++ and client-server yadda etc. blah should
> sure stop whining- after all, 9 of 10 listed jobs are just for those few
> people.

I strongly suspect that most drug addicts who are selling their bodies to
buy drugs are not
computer science majors with 5-10 years of experience
(At least not THAT kind of experience...)

Naomi

E l i s e R a u s c h e n b a c h

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Nov 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/14/97
to

On 14 Nov 1997 15:54:49 GMT, ibil...@cris.com (Ilene Bilenky) wrote:

>I must agree with Naomi- all those computer science majors with 5-10 years
>of experience in Unix and C++ and client-server yadda etc. blah should
>sure stop whining- after all, 9 of 10 listed jobs are just for those few
>people.

Well, I'm still going to whine (a little), Ilene --- even though most
of the jobs listed in the Boston Globe, at least, are
computer-oriented, the fax is that 60+% of those jobs are *not* filled
by responses to those ads. They are filled by personal connections,
and who you know (people with whom you've worked at other jobs who
know what you can do, etc.). So even tho the Help Wanted section
might seem to be bulging, it's not necessarily all that meaningful.

Elise
(who should know --- her software-husband Tom got his last 3 jobs via
"personal connections").


morgans1@outoutdamnedspam

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Nov 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/14/97
to

On 14 Nov 1997 15:08:42 GMT, npa...@indiana.edu (naomi pardue) wrote:

>The particular TYPE of job you want may be hard to find. The hours you
>prefer may be hard to find. But if you were willing to flip burgers or
>wait tables or punch a cash register 3rd shift at the 7-11 or clean rooms
>in a hotel ... you could get A job.

Ever hear the word "overqualified?" Many employers won't even _hire_ a
college graduate for a McJob (for example). My husband ran into that
when he was between jobs a couple of years ago (after leaving his
security job due to repeated abuses by his employer)... seemed like he
was either underqualified or overqualified for everything! And yes, he
did apply for flipping burgers, punching cash registers, cleaning
offices, yadda yadda yadda. Thank deity for temp agencies, although we
had a rough couple of months where said agency only had him working
one or two days a week because _they_ were overstaffed with people in
the same situation as my husband. :-(
--
Mari E. Morgan, morgans1 AT mindspring DOT com
"...ever get the feeling that the story's too damn real
and in the present tense?"
Yes, that's a spamblock. Replace it with mindspring.com to email me.

Ilene Bilenky

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Nov 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/14/97
to

I must agree with Naomi- all those computer science majors with 5-10 years
of experience in Unix and C++ and client-server yadda etc. blah should
sure stop whining- after all, 9 of 10 listed jobs are just for those few
people.
As for the rest of us..
Ilene B (sarcasm clue)

> > naomi pardue <npa...@indiana.edu> wrote in article

Jim Paradis

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Nov 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/15/97
to

ibil...@cris.com (Ilene Bilenky) writes:
> I must agree with Naomi- all those computer science majors with 5-10 years
> of experience in Unix and C++ and client-server yadda etc. blah should
> sure stop whining- after all, 9 of 10 listed jobs are just for those few
> people.

What's funny is, 7 years ago when Tamara had graduated and the job market
had completely dried up due to the downsizing frenzy and she couldn't
find an entry-level computer job to save her life, I remember muttering:
"Well, in five years those companies had better not start whining about
a shortage of engineers with five years' experience!"

Predictably, though, that seems to be exactly what's happening...

--
Jim Paradis j...@jrp.tiac.net http://www.tiac.net/users/jrp/index.html
"It's not procrastination, it's my new Just-In-Time Workload Management System!"

Raydioface

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Nov 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/15/97
to

In article <64gm7r$s4p$1...@pinta.pagesz.net>, kmp...@NOSPAM.pagesz.net
(Kent Parks) writes:

>
>Brenda Peters (71543...@compuserve.com) wrote:
>: >
>: > My local paper has 2-3 pages of want ads every day. In large cities there


>: > are typically 50-100 pages of want ads. Lack of employment?

>:
>: Oh, please. As someone with a Master's degree who sent out over 100


>: resumes and got only three interviews, I don't see any abundance of
>: employment. Yes, I did try for MOSTLY jobs that were "beneath" me because
>: I needed the money. Jobs just aren't that easy to get, and if you have to
>: suddenly pay for child care AND try to, oh, say, get food too, it just
>: isn't going to be a happy situation for anyone.

>:
>: Brenda (who, if she hears ONE more jolly comment about how it's such a
>: GREAT job market.....)
>


>Hear, Hear!! Hear, hear, HEAR!!!!!
>As ANOTHER one with a Masters, sending out zillions of resumes for jobs
>that are "beneath" me just to get my foot in the door, and has had about
>the same number of interviews, I am sick of hearing about this "great job
>market", too! About 95% of the jobs require at least 2-3 years experience
>in the exact kind of job that is being offered (why would someone leave
>one job after 3 years and be in the market for one EXACTLY like it?).
>OTOH, in the retail/service jobs, they can't get people at all...THAT'S
>where all the jobs are, with nobody willing to fill them, it seems. At
>least around here.
>
>Don't tell ME how thick the want ads are...
>

I only have a measely BA, (and a liberal arts grad at that!) and I somehow
ended up a public radio producer. Now, I'm not a stupid person, I do a lot
of work with computers, and I really can be taught new skills.... However,
when *I* check the job listings.....sigh. As my boss and I joke, we look
through them and say "can't do that page, can't do that page, can't do that
page". From what I see in the Columbus paper, the better paying jobs are
VERY SPECIFIC. I feel badly for those students who, like me, didn't know
from age 8 they wanted to be a chemical engineer or ultrasound technologist
and ended up majoring in something "useless" like history or sociology.
(My majors, and NO, I DON'T think they are useless....I just wish the rest
of the world agreed.....)

Colleen

Rabbit

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Nov 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/15/97
to

>
> The particular TYPE of job you want may be hard to find. The hours you
> prefer may be hard to find. But if you were willing to flip burgers or
> wait tables or punch a cash register 3rd shift at the 7-11 or clean rooms
> in a hotel ... you could get A job.
>
> Naomi

Good point. Of course, you'd probably lose the house that you'd bought
when you were employed before ... even if it's just a very small one.
And of course you'd have to sell any car you owned. Your savings would
disappear, and next thing you knew, you'd be looking for a basement
apartment and worrying that one wrong move (a week's worth of illness,
perhaps) could have you out on the street.

Rabbit

Gary Brainin

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Nov 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/15/97
to

In article <19971115192...@ladder01.news.aol.com> terr...@aol.com (Terry SC2) writes:
> <<Ilene B "worst job ever- the onion ring room at Mrs. Paul's Frozen Foods">>

> Wow, is that really worse than the Woolworth's lunch counter? (I
> lasted all of two weeks.) ;)

Mine was microfilming: Lay piece of paper on table. Press button.
Lay next piece of paper on table. Press button. Repeat exactly
10,000 times. Change film. Start over.

-Gary

--
|Gary Brainin | "...the right to be let alone--the most
|gar...@spies.com Ramblings and | comprehensive of rights and the right most
|anti-spam instructions at: | valued by civilized men." Olmstead v. U.S.
|http://www.spies.com/garygm/ | (Brandeis, J., dissenting)

Terry SC2

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Nov 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/15/97
to

Kent Parks

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Nov 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/15/97
to

I changed the subject line of this thread...

Rebecca Bellerue Cosand (rco...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
:
: I hear you! I have my bachelors (political science, with a minor in
: history), and I have been told I am overqualified because of the degree,
: and underqualified because I haven't finished my masters yet. On the other
: hand, Aaron is still working on his degree, but companies trip over
: themselves to hire him because he is a programmer. I should have been a
: computer science major......

This reminds me of when I first got out with MY 'useless' 1st BA
(Linguistics & French!): I had worked as a bank teller during summers
while in college, yet they would not hire me as a full-time teller
"because we don't hire people with degrees as tellers", yet I couldn't go
into management training because I did NOT have the kind of degree they
wanted. Actually, I would have hated banking, anyway, but I'd have done
just fine at it...

: Rebecca (who is getting really sick and tired of the same recruiters
: calling with *fabulous* opportunities in Raleigh-Durham, despite the
: repeated statement of "I am only looking in Boston")

Hey, Rebecca, what's wrong with Raleigh-Durham?? That's where Jill & I are
(& Dorothea is from). Actually, this is the precise market that only wants
"3-5 years of experience" in programming-type things. Forward some of
those "fabulous opportunities" to me! :)

Kent

Marisa Wood, aka The Incredible She-Hulk

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Nov 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/15/97
to

On Sun, 16 Nov 1997 morgans1@outoutdamnedspam wrote:

> as worst were actually up there on the fun scale. One was doing
> (musta been prophetic), and the other was a cleaner/playmate at a
> kennel (equal time cleaning cages and playing with miscellaneous
> critters). O'course, animals don't care if your shirt is stained or if
> you have zits, just as long as you play nice, talk friendly, and carry
> food. *grin*

:)

I've often thought about volunteering at someplace like a vet clinic or an
animal shelter, just so I could pet and play with the kitties. I cat-sit
whenever I get the chance, and of course this sometimes involves cleaning
up kitty vomit and cleaning out cat boxes.... :P

But I can think of worse things I've done than clean up after a cat:

1. Customer service rep at a publishing company. The office mgr. was
Evil Incarnate, and the job itself required me to be nice to a LOT of
assholes. I lasted there three weeks.

2. Food server in the cafeteria in college. A lot of students would
treat the person behind the counter like $#!+; and, again, I HAD to be
nice to the jerks. I did this for two years and HATED most of it,
although I didn't mind being assigned to the kitchen and doing things like
making salad dressing or washing dishes.

3. Motel maid. I cleaned a lot of disgusting rooms, and, at one
motel-maid job I did, the boss was a b*tch and I had to grit my teeth and
bear it. Fortunately I never lasted at a housekeeping job for more than
one summer.

Some jobs I've done that I've LOVED, or at least LIKED:

1. The day job I'm doing now, while I look for a literary agent. I'm an
accounting assistant at a jewelry company. I started out as a file clerk
at this company two years ago, thinking I'd quit as soon as a library job
came along.

I ended up staying because: A) The pay was only okay, but
the benefits were great; B) My coworkers, and the higher-ups in the
company, treated me like a human; C) Since the job required almost no
public contact, I didn't have to deal with assholes; D) I've found out
math and numbers don't scare me as much as I thought they would; E) I
DROOL over colored gemstones, and, yes, I DO get employee discounts! :)

2. Scene painter/carpenter/tool room supervisor for a university theatre
dept. I LOVED this job, the full two years I did it. (The only reason I
quit it, was that I graduated, and moved to the other end of the state.)

I had a great boss. When D. said "equal opportunity," he meant it. He
had a male secretary, and I was actually one of the first women hired in
"the Shop." He really did try to find the best person for a job, and
would often create one to match the skills of an employee. I got to be
"Tool Room Supervisor" because I had two things he noticed, and wanted for
the job: "stick-to-itive-ness" and organizational skills.

I could also, more or less, set my own hours, and even if I wasn't writing
or singing or acting, I was doing *some*thing artistic.

Marisa Wood "Under the armour of that iron woman/
So many things lie within"
ish...@blarg.net Julia Fordham, "Island"


Kent Parks

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Nov 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/16/97
to

My first job out of college--which lasted two weeks and one of them was
training--was selling carpet-cleaning systems; not quite a door-to-door
vacuum cleaner salesman but not far from it. Considering that I am VERY
shy to begin with, I'm not sure how I even lasted as long as I did (I only
ended up with this job because my dad was pressuring me nonstop to get a
job). Of course I subjected everyone I knew to my "demo" and to this day
that is a humiliating part of my life I wish I could erase.

A couple of friends and I were once discussing all of the horrid,
humiliating things we've done for jobs, and we tried to think of the MOST
"ruint" job we could--not long after that, at the State Fair, we saw a
paintball booth where people would pay for X number of shots and then just
shoot at things in the "shooting gallery"--then we noticed that one of the
"objects" was in fact a PERSON, dressed up like a "fugitive" for people to
shoot at. We may have found our answer...


Kent

JennieD-O'C

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Nov 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/16/97
to

Rebecca Bellerue Cosand <rco...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>I hear you! I have my bachelors (political science, with a minor in
>history), and I have been told I am overqualified because of the degree,
>and underqualified because I haven't finished my masters yet.

Ain't it fun? If I hadn't been lucky enough to get a job as a professor,
I would have been unqualified to do *anything* else, and too educated to
be hired into a trainee position in a new career. You see, I have
bachelor's degrees in German and Linguistics, a master's degree in
Germanic Linguistics, and a Ph.D. in Germanic Linguistics. Oh, yeah,
that's really worth something in the real world. <rolls eyes> "Career
track" is fine if you're lucky enough to get a career job, but when I
think of how close I came to being unable to do anything but flip burgers,
I can only shudder.

---
Jennie D-O'C <jenn...@intranet.org> http://home.intranet.org/~jenniedo/

naomi pardue

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Nov 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/16/97
to

Gary Brainin (gar...@goonsquad.spies.com) wrote:
> In article <19971115192...@ladder01.news.aol.com> terr...@aol.com (Terry SC2) writes:
> > <<Ilene B "worst job ever- the onion ring room at Mrs. Paul's Frozen Foods">>
>

Working in a bindery. I spent a week making boxes. Then I spent a week
taking boxes apart. Then I spent 2 weeks opening a book to page 26 and
turning it over. (During which we were not allowed to talk to anyone, for
fear we wouldn't be able to concentrate on this highly complex task.)

Naomi

Debbie Schwartz

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Nov 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/16/97
to

On 15 Nov 97 19:35:03 GMT, gar...@goonsquad.spies.com (Gary Brainin)
wrote:

> Mine was microfilming: Lay piece of paper on table. Press button.
>Lay next piece of paper on table. Press button. Repeat exactly
>10,000 times. Change film. Start over.

At a printer's, feeding big stacks of pages into a collating machine.
Put big stack of paper into hopper. Push button. Put big stack of
collated pages into box. Repeat for 8 hours. Call temp agency who
got you job and ask for something else.

Telephone soliciter. Lasted 2 weeks.

Dry cleaner counter worker (part time during high school
Inhaling all those fumes and dealing with irate customers.
--
Debbie Schwartz d...@halcyon.com * Killfiling idiots since 1989 *
"I'm not crazy, I've just been in a very bad mood for 40 years."
_Steel Magnolias_
* I do not do business with spammers. * This post copyrighted 1997.

naomi pardue

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Nov 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/16/97