Re: Xtians Upset Over Season's Greetings
Beth Cole
Caine wrote:
<snip>
>
> "On the one hand, you have a board of directors who's yelling at you for
> doing anything that offends anyone. On the other hand, you have this group
> that's yelling at you for commercializing a religious holiday," Sway said.
I'd follow the Board of Directors. If the church members don't want to
commercialize a religious holiday, than perhaps they need to quit
shopping and not give presents.
<snip)
> "There's one group of people who get bullied all the time, and that's
> Christians," he said. "I know what it is like to be bullied. It is
> apartheid in reverse — the majority is being bullied by the minority."
He doesn't know much about apartheid. It *was* the majority being
bullied by the minority. If he is talking about segregation, then it
was a minority being bullied by the majority.
But then, by most of his statements, I'm guessing he doesn't know much
about anything outside of his comfortable little microscopic world.
Beth
khan
Caine wrote:
> http://tinyurl.com/3ug49
>
> RALEIGH, N.C. — This year, as Christmas season swung into gear, Pastor
> Patrick Wooden's followers fanned out to shopping malls across Raleigh to
> deliver a muscular message of holiday cheer: As Christian shoppers, they
> would like to be greeted with the phrase "Merry Christmas" — not a bland
> "Happy Holidays" — and stores that failed to do so would risk losing their
> business.
>
> Nearly six weeks later, some citizens in Raleigh are seething over what
> they see as an attempt to force religion into the public square.
>
> But others say "Merry Christmas" is rolling off their tongues more easily
> and more often than in previous years.
>
> Conservative Christians nationwide have converged around the topic of
> Christmas, complaining that secularists and nonbelievers have tried to
> obliterate the holiday's religious meaning.
>
> In Oklahoma and Miami, local skirmishes have erupted over the display of
> nativity scenes on government property. A California man has called for a
> boycott of Macy's and Bloomingdale's department stores, demanding the
> phrase "Merry Christmas" be used. In Denver, the mayor's attempt to remove
> "Merry Christmas" from a light display raised such a howl of protest that
> he reversed his decision.
>
> Here in Raleigh, the grass-roots campaigning has focused on retailers. And
> it's been so invigorating that the church is making plans for next year,
> said Wooden, a barrel-chested former football player who leads a
> conservative black congregation of about 3,000.
I don't recall Jesus saying anything about boycotting merchants who
don't say "Merry Christmas"
Aren't Christians supposed to be doing good works?
----------
Matthew 25
35 For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye
gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in
prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee
an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed
thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you,
Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren,
ye have done it unto me.
Circe
> Christians," he said. "I know what it is like to be bullied. It is
> apartheid in reverse — the majority is being bullied by the minority."
Oh yes, the poor oppressed Christians. I'd like to see
this guy truly bullied. When was the last time he was
beat up for being Christian? If he was, say, gay, he'd
have to worry about a damn sight more than being
bullied. He'd have to worry about being killed.
--
Circe
I used to be disgusted. Now I try to be amused.
Rabbit
> Conservative Christians nationwide have converged around the topic of
> Christmas, complaining that secularists and nonbelievers have tried to
> obliterate the holiday's religious meaning.
>
I find it hard to believe that the 427,386 people all vying for parking
spots at the mall yesterday are secularists and nonbelievers. In fact, I
heard plenty of Christianity mentioned within -- people standing there
yelling, "Jesus Christ, what the Hell am I going to buy?!"
Conservative Christians should get it through their inch-thick skulls that
it's possible to have faith even when the rest of the world doesn't bow down
and worship as they do. If I say "Happy Holidays" to you, does that mean
that Christmas is no longer about Christ to you? Good fucking lord, I never
dreamed I had so much power! I can bring down the whole faith with two
secular words!
For fuck's sake, if I don't go up to a Jew and wish him a happy Passover, my
guess is good that he still goes home and does the whole ceremony with his
family, and they all still believe, and their God smiles down upon them and
life is good.
In North America, a Christian is still free to worship at the (tax-free)
church of his choice, one of which is found in just about any place where
more than three people reside; he can buy a Bible in just about any
bookstore, secular, Christian or otherwise; he can go into just about any
jewellery store and buy a gold cross, and wear it around his neck wherever
he chooses to go. He can write "Merry Christmas" on his card (and possibly
buy a post-office-approved Christmas-themed stamp) and have it delivered
anywhere he wants it to go.
He can sing Christmas carols, most of which are piped into the mall whether
we want to hear them or not. He can put up a Christmas tree, and if he
chooses, decorate his house to look like a whorehouse on LSD while using
eight times the energy anyone really should be consuming. He can buy
Christmas-themed wrapping paper in the dollar store; he can buy
Christ-themed cards at Hallmark; he can buy Christ-themed Christmas
ornaments at any card shop.
And because I might happen to say "Happy Holidays" to him instead of "Merry
Christmas", his world and his feelings and his sensibilities are so
paper-thin that he doesn't know what to do? Give me a motherfucking break.
Conserative Christians wonder why there's a backlash against them. Well, you
assholes, here's news for you -- you brought it on yourselves.
Rabbit
KFB ESQ
>Christmas", his world and his feelings and his sensibilities are so
>paper-thin that he doesn't know what to do? Give me a motherfucking break.
>Conserative Christians wonder why there's a backlash against them. Well, you
assholes, here's news for you -- you brought it on yourselves.<<
Very well put, Rabbit! It's not nearly enough for these nuts to hold an
overwhelmingly dominant position of privilege in our culture. They must be the
*only* option in town, and must have state sanction. Because, after all,
they're right and everyone else is evil, er, I mean wrong. That is the
fundamental nature of their sick belief system.
If you think it's bad in Canada, it's much worse in the Christian States of
America.
These people are very dangerous and enormously powerful. Very bad.
Kevin
Veronique
> Caine wrote:
>
> > Conservative Christians nationwide have converged around the topic
of
> > Christmas, complaining that secularists and nonbelievers have tried
to
> > obliterate the holiday's religious meaning.
>
>
> The Romans had the right idea about what to do with Xians...Pete
Reminds me of many years ago, when the National Zoo acquired a couple
new lions. To this day, I cannot remember where they were from, because
I was told we were going to see "the Christian-eating lions."
V.
--
Veronique Chez Sheep
ghoul
> http://tinyurl.com/3ug49
>
> RALEIGH, N.C. — This year, as Christmas season swung into gear, Pastor
> Patrick Wooden's followers fanned out to shopping malls across Raleigh to
> deliver a muscular message of holiday cheer: As Christian shoppers, they
> would like to be greeted with the phrase "Merry Christmas" — not a bland
> "Happy Holidays" — and stores that failed to do so would risk losing
> their business.
>
> Nearly six weeks later, some citizens in Raleigh are seething over what
> they see as an attempt to force religion into the public square.
>
> But others say "Merry Christmas" is rolling off their tongues more easily
> and more often than in previous years.
>
> Conservative Christians nationwide have converged around the topic of
> Christmas, complaining that secularists and nonbelievers have tried to
> obliterate the holiday's religious meaning.
>
> In Oklahoma and Miami, local skirmishes have erupted over the display of
> nativity scenes on government property. A California man has called for a
> boycott of Macy's and Bloomingdale's department stores, demanding the
> phrase "Merry Christmas" be used. In Denver, the mayor's attempt to remove
> "Merry Christmas" from a light display raised such a howl of protest that
> he reversed his decision.
>
> Here in Raleigh, the grass-roots campaigning has focused on retailers. And
> it's been so invigorating that the church is making plans for next year,
> said Wooden, a barrel-chested former football player who leads a
> conservative black congregation of about 3,000.
>
> "Our position is: If they want the gold, frankincense and myrrh, they
> should acknowledge the birth of the child," said Wooden, pastor of the
> Upper Room Church of God in Christ.
>
> Conservative Americans feel ready to push back against "the secularists or
> the humanists or the elitists" who dominate popular culture, said the Rev.
> Mark Creech of the Christian Action League of North Carolina, which is
> based in Raleigh.
>
> "It's a cultural war. We are in the thick of it," Creech said. "It's not
> so much an attack on us. It's an attack on Christ."
>
> Throughout history, religious people have fretted over the holiday's
> secular aspects, said Penne Restad, a lecturer at the University of Texas
> at Austin and the author of "Christmas in America: A History."
>
> Created by the Roman Catholic Church in the 4th century, the celebration
> of the nativity coincided with pre-Christian feasts, allowing observant
> Christians to "then go out the door and participate in Saturnalia," Restad
> said.
>
> In pre-Colonial days, English authorities looked on the holiday as a riot
> of drunkenness and hooliganism. American Puritans rejected it completely,
> preferring to get up and go to work. Not until the 1820s and '30s, with
> the holiday "getting rowdier and rowdier and more destructive," did
> Americans redefine it as a safe and private family time, Restad said —
> the "old- fashioned Christmas" celebrated in carols and Currier & Ives
> prints.
>
> Karal Ann Marling, author of "Merry Christmas! Celebrating America's
> Greatest Holiday," called complaints about secularization "complete and
> utter bunk."
>
> "If you think Christmas meant the baby Jesus in the past, it didn't," said
> Marling, a professor of art history at the University of Minnesota.
>
> Still, the last 20 years have seen a corporate trend toward generic
> holiday celebrations — brought about not through the law, since private
> businesses are free to decorate as they like, but by a desire not to
> offend, a retail expert said.
>
> At Cary Towne Center, a mall just outside Raleigh, displays featured azure
> and white artificial trees, massive suspended ornaments and flakes of
> iridescent plastic which, from a distance, bore a resemblance to snow.
>
> Heather Vandeusen, manager at the Body Shop, which sells skin-care
> products, said off-site managers train her staff to say "Happy Holidays."
>
> "If my corporate allowed it, I wouldn't have a problem with it," said
> Vandeusen, 20. "I still say 'Merry Christmas,' personally."
>
> A major shift took place in the 1990s, when corporations became sensitive
> to complaints of customers on both ends of the political spectrum, said
> Russell Sway, international president of the Institute of Store Planners,
> an Atlanta-based association of design and merchandising specialists.
>
> "On the one hand, you have a board of directors who's yelling at you for
> doing anything that offends anyone. On the other hand, you have this group
> that's yelling at you for commercializing a religious holiday," Sway said.
>
> Wooden and his congregation — whose church building has a cherry-red
> "Merry Christmas" banner hanging across its front like a political slogan
> — aim to push back against that spirit of caution.
>
> On the day after Thanksgiving, the church ran a full-page advertisement in
> the Raleigh News and Observer, urging Christians to "spend their hard-
> earned dollars with merchants who include the greeting Merry Christmas."
>
> Over the next week, the paper ran a series of passionate letters, many
> critical of the advertisement:
>
> "What happened to the land that my parents, Eastern European immigrants,
> adopted as their beloved country — a country of fairness and tolerance?"
> wrote Harriet Lasher.
>
> An Episcopal priest wrote to compare the campaign to the Nazi policy
> requiring Jews to identify themselves with yellow stars.
>
> Judah Segal, executive director of the Raleigh-Cary Jewish Federation,
> said he was not disturbed by the advertisement, and hoped it was intended
> to "remind Christians that there is an essence to the holiday," not to
> shut out others.
>
> "We really respect and admire people who want to have religious content in
> their own holiday," he said.
>
> Wooden, 43, considers the campaign such a success that he has already set
> aside money in the church budget — full-page ads cost about $7,600 — to
> buy a similar advertisement next year. Fresh off the fierce debate over
> same- sex marriage, which he opposes, he says condemnation from the left
> does not trouble him. On the contrary, he said: "It seems to me the
> greater the persecution, the stronger the church."
>
> As far as complaints from people of other religions go, Wooden looks at it
> this way: An ice-cream vendor doesn't have to like every flavor he sells.
>
> "There's one group of people who get bullied all the time, and that's
> Christians," he said. "I know what it is like to be bullied. It is
> apartheid in reverse — the majority is being bullied by the minority."
>
> Little has changed at Cary Towne Center, where Wooden's members delivered
> letters in late October: Festoons of tiny lights twinkle from the ceiling,
> garlands of artificial pine deck the halls, and the word "Christmas" is
> hard to find. Phyllis Maultsby, who owns the shop Light Years Jewelry,
> said pressure would not change her holiday decorating choices.
>
> "I'm not going to be influenced, because we embrace diversity," Maultsby
> said. "I certainly would never want to feel like I was being bullied."
>
> But some retailers say they're behaving a little differently this season.
>
> Kevin Coggins, who owns a bicycle shop called Spin Cycle in Cary, said he
> finds it easier — more comfortable — to wish people a "Merry Christmas"
> this year, as if after years of careful "Happy Holidays," he had suddenly
> been given permission.
>
> "I think the Christians are out of the closet," Coggins said.
>
> Ed Jones, president of the Greater Raleigh Merchants Assn., agreed. This
> Christmas, he is more conscious than ever of "a conspiracy of leftist-
> leaning people that want to bring down traditional values in our country,"
> he said.
>
> "I don't see anything to gain by offending others, but many of us are
> offended ourselves," said Jones, who owns a remodeling business. "I think
> we — the collective we — are allowing a small minority of people to rule
> our lives. I'm opposed to that."
>
> His wife bought cards that read "Happy Holidays" this year, Jones said,
> but he was careful to ink "Merry Christmas" onto every one of them.
>
>
ya know............
to every OTHER group out there who gets upset at the sight of Christmas
displays and the like, the answer is very simple:
Put up your Menorrah next to the manger and join in the festivities and shut
the fuck up! And whatever Kwanza, Tet< Ramadan, fill in the blank symbol
you bring with you. Make it a celebration and quit trying to deny the
holiday for the rest of us.
Salome
> would like to be greeted with the phrase "Merry Christmas" — not a bland
> "Happy Holidays" — and stores that failed to do so would risk losing their
> business.
So apparently xmas is about shopping and about forcing everyone around you
to provide the comfortable fantasy environment you prefer -- an environment
where YOU are in control.
This kerfuffle isn't about xmas. It isn't about religion in any spiritual
sense. It's about power. The power, in this case, to turn the world into a
Happy Xtian Families of the 'Fifties theme park, where women stayed in their
place and riffraff with non-approved politics, sexualities, and religious
preferences did not exist.
> Nearly six weeks later, some citizens in Raleigh are seething over what
> they see as an attempt to force religion into the public square.
"Force" is right. Religion is just the excuse.
> Conservative Christians nationwide have converged around the topic of
> Christmas, complaining that secularists and nonbelievers have tried to
> obliterate the holiday's religious meaning.
Unlike all those good xtian shoppers.
> "Our position is: If they want the gold, frankincense and myrrh, they
> should acknowledge the birth of the child," said Wooden, pastor of the
> Upper Room Church of God in Christ.
This is so tangled, the guy must have a huge knotted ball of string in his
brain. I don't know much about xtian mythology, but I do seem to recall that
the gold, frankincense and myrrh were the *gifts*, not the currency used to
pay for them.
As a storekeeper, my position would be, "Acknowledge the birth of the child?
ACKNOWLEDGE the BIRTH of the CHILD??? For one thing, I'm not xtian, and for
another nobody tells me what to think or say in my own store. If you want MY
frankincense and myrrh to give your famblee, you can bloody well buy and it
get out." I realize this may not be economically practical for a lot of
shopkeepers, of course.
> Conservative Americans feel ready to push back against "the secularists or
> the humanists or the elitists" who dominate popular culture, said the Rev.
> Mark Creech of the Christian Action League of North Carolina, which is
> based in Raleigh.
The key word here is "dominate." Anyone who lives free of the xtian script
must be trying to Dominate Popular Culture. "Conservative Americans" know
that they're in a good position right now to grab more political power and
run with it. And dominate the hell out of everyone else.
> "It's a cultural war. We are in the thick of it," Creech said. "It's not
> so
> much an attack on us. It's an attack on Christ."
"It" isn't an attack on anybody. "It" is freedom. And as many have pointed
out, Christ doesn't need a bunch of busybodies to protect him.
> Throughout history, religious people have fretted over the holiday's
> secular aspects, said Penne Restad, a lecturer at the University of Texas
> at Austin and the author of "Christmas in America: A History."
Concerned religious people should tell their flocks to abstain from shopping
and petty displays. Spiritual meaning restored. Other people no longer
bothered. Problem solved.
> Karal Ann Marling, author of "Merry Christmas! Celebrating America's
> Greatest Holiday," called complaints about secularization "complete and
> utter bunk."
>
> "If you think Christmas meant the baby Jesus in the past, it didn't," said
> Marling, a professor of art history at the University of Minnesota.
Oh hail, she's fulla shit. She's one of them eddercated libberal
intellectuals. She's probably had fifteen abortions. She's attacking the
Baby Jebus!
> Wooden and his congregation — whose church building has a cherry-red
> "Merry
> Christmas" banner hanging across its front like a political slogan
Because that's what they've turned it into...
> — aim to
> push back against that spirit of caution.
Or rather, spirit of consideration for the possibility that there might be
non-xtians among the shopping masses.
> On the day after Thanksgiving, the church ran a full-page advertisement in
> the Raleigh News and Observer, urging Christians to "spend their hard-
> earned dollars with merchants who include the greeting Merry Christmas."
Why the fuck do they care? Oh yeah. It's one more little scuffle in the
xtian Right's grab for power.
> Judah Segal, executive director of the Raleigh-Cary Jewish Federation,
> said
> he was not disturbed by the advertisement, and hoped it was intended to
> "remind Christians that there is an essence to the holiday," not to shut
> out others.
Then Judah Segal is sadly missing the point.
> Wooden, 43, considers the campaign such a success that he has already set
> aside money in the church budget — full-page ads cost about $7,600 — to
> buy
> a similar advertisement next year. Fresh off the fierce debate over same-
> sex marriage, which he opposes, he says condemnation from the left does
> not
> trouble him. On the contrary, he said: "It seems to me the greater the
> persecution, the stronger the church."
'cause we gotta have something to feel self-righteous about. Nothing brings
people together like adversity. You know, like being told "Happy Holidays"
by shopkeepers.
> Kevin Coggins, who owns a bicycle shop called Spin Cycle in Cary, said he
> finds it easier — more comfortable — to wish people a "Merry Christmas"
> this year, as if after years of careful "Happy Holidays," he had suddenly
> been given permission.
"Given permission"? Oh, you poor oppressed man.
> "I think the Christians are out of the closet," Coggins said.
No, just bossier and more self-righteous than ever.
The same kinds of things may be going on here in Spokzne, where the xmas
spirit has been in full swing since November 1, but thankfully I'm oblivious
to them. (Mostly because I almost never go shopping.) There's no way to
ignore the xmas music warbling in every public venue, from restaurants to
the doctors' waiting rooms to the "hold" music on the phone at the vet's
office, and there's no way to avoid the perky greetings and "Are you ready
for xmas?" "Have you got all your shopping done?" etc. As always, one can
put on an equally perky, or at least neutral, facade to make life easier for
everyone. Correcting their assumptions, whether about CFness or the
universal xtianness of everyone on the planet, is too much like hard work.
Fuck 'em. I'd rather get my prescription filled and go home.
> Ed Jones, president of the Greater Raleigh Merchants Assn., agreed. This
> Christmas, he is more conscious than ever of "a conspiracy of leftist-
> leaning people that want to bring down traditional values in our country,"
> he said.
Apparently paranoid delusions are an integral part of being xtian these
days. I guess every "Merry Xmas" that springs from his lips is a blow for
freedom.
> His wife bought cards that read "Happy Holidays" this year, Jones said,
> but
> he was careful to ink "Merry Christmas" onto every one of them.
Mrs. Jones, your husband is mentally ill. Good luck.
Salome
Spanglish
"rhoda penmark" <rh...@thebadseed.com> wrote in message
news:tgt8s0l96mqjviddd...@4ax.com...
> It's amazing, the amount of ignorance one can get away with in this
> country
Yes, isn't it? Indeed! I think of that every damned time I see one of YOUR
posts at a newsgroup. Imagine that. All you have to do is merely express
yourself and the above statement immediately comes to mind, Rhoda.
JN
Morwen
(in message <8y1xd.4926821$yk.7...@news.easynews.com>):
>> Conservative Americans feel ready to push back against "the secularists or
>> the humanists or the elitists" who dominate popular culture, said the Rev.
>> Mark Creech of the Christian Action League of North Carolina, which is
>> based in Raleigh.
>
> The key word here is "dominate." Anyone who lives free of the xtian script
> must be trying to Dominate Popular Culture. "Conservative Americans" know
> that they're in a good position right now to grab more political power and
> run with it. And dominate the hell out of everyone else.
Yes, indeedy. Also, these would-be theocrats consign many xians to the evil
"secular, humanist, elitist" category. It's a club they use to beat anyone
who doesn't fit into their narrow little world.
I'm a strongly anti-religious (*any* religion) atheist, and it amuses me that
my liberal xian parents are in the same evil category as I am according to
the fundamentalist repugnican Christapo.
Morwen
Citizen Ted
wrote:
>http://tinyurl.com/3ug49
>
>RALEIGH, N.C. — This year, as Christmas season swung into gear, Pastor
>Patrick Wooden's followers fanned out to shopping malls across Raleigh to
>deliver a muscular message of holiday cheer: As Christian shoppers, they
>would like to be greeted with the phrase "Merry Christmas" — not a bland
>"Happy Holidays" — and stores that failed to do so would risk losing their
>business.
Fine.
I'm a private citizen. I'll be happy to walk past their church this
holiday, and when they walk by, I'll greet them with "May Satan's
incubus greedily lick the tears from your crucified saviour", and of
course my perennial favorite, "I shit on your filthy Christ".
Oh, and have a nice day.
- TR
MerkinDream
<enoid8...@THIScomcast.net> wrote:
>I'm a private citizen. I'll be happy to walk past their church this
>holiday, and when they walk by, I'll greet them with "May Satan's
>incubus greedily lick the tears from your crucified saviour", and of
>course my perennial favorite, "I shit on your filthy Christ".
I've been told that there's actually an old German farmer's maxim
about the importance of enriching the soil:
"Where there is manure, there is Christ."
I found it ambiguous enough that I had it as my scrolling screensaver
at work for a while.
Merk
Jeri Jo Thomas
important missive...
Q:Here in Raleigh, the grass-roots campaigning has focused on retailers. And
Q:it's been so invigorating that the church is making plans for next year,
Q:said Wooden, a barrel-chested former football player who leads a
Q:conservative black congregation of about 3,000.
Q:
Q:
OMG! How embarrassing.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Important MWS documents ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The MWS FAQ: http://www.online-communicator.com/faqs.html
Filtering Trolls: http://www.schmuckwithanunderwood.com/trolls.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
No kids for you or from you
>For fuck's sake, if I don't go up to a Jew and wish him a happy Passover, my
>guess is good that he still goes home and does the whole ceremony with his
>family, and they all still believe, and their God smiles down upon them and
>life is good.
>giggle< Passover=Easter :)
From: Nokids4you
Hey breeder, why don't you save your
breath for blowing up water wings!
deer...@mindspring.com
Rabbit wrote:
> I find it hard to believe that the 427,386 people all vying for parking
> spots at the mall yesterday are secularists and nonbelievers. In fact, I
> heard plenty of Christianity mentioned within -- people standing there
> yelling, "Jesus Christ, what the Hell am I going to buy?!"
ROTFL!!!
C.
**
(just back from Borders. And Target. And Stop n Shop. And Coconuts.
And...)
deer...@mindspring.com
Rabbit wrote:
>
> Conservative Christians should get it through their inch-thick skulls that
> it's possible to have faith even when the rest of the world doesn't bow down
> and worship as they do. If I say "Happy Holidays" to you, does that mean
> that Christmas is no longer about Christ to you? Good fucking lord, I never
> dreamed I had so much power! I can bring down the whole faith with two
> secular words!
The right-wing and their talking heads are making a _very_ big deal
of this this year. O'Reilly actually had the nerve to tell a Jewish
caller who disagreed with his stance that Christmas is under attack
that he should "go live in Israel." And USA TODAY had an
insufferable article about how in some towns, wingers are making a
point to use red and green lights in displays/decorations because
those "old-fashioned" colors represent "real" Christmas. (I guess as
opposed to those liberal white lights and things...g!)
C.
**
deer...@mindspring.com
Silverwingrider wrote:
>
> Somewhat related .... the fundies have their knickers in a twist over
> Tom Hanks participating in the film "The Da Vinci Code". Richard
> Roeper's view on it:
> http://www.suntimes.com/output/roeper/cst-nws-roep15.html
Eheheheh. Hanks being cast in this role in the first place is _so_
wrong that one can only conclude it was done so to spike
fundy-generated controversy (and insure red-state box office.) I'm
dreading this movie because even though the book ain't Shakespeare,
it's bound to be so gutted and "cautionized" because of fear of
these bastards that what was good about it will be gone.
> And so what. If you believe in Christmas, be offended by the things
> that matter. Not upcoming movies, or bans on sparkly trees or pretty
> songs. Be offended by the things Jesus was offended by. Unless I
> misread his teachings, I'm pretty sure he'd be a lot more worked up
> about a single homeless person going hungry than some piece of fantasy
> entertainment."
As Veronique so aptly pointed out, they care about power, not
abiding by Jesus' teachings.
C.
**
Keith Barber
news:1103402041....@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
>> The Romans had the right idea about what to do with Xians...Pete
>
>
> Reminds me of many years ago, when the National Zoo acquired a couple
> new lions. To this day, I cannot remember where they were from, because
> I was told we were going to see "the Christian-eating lions."
>
Oddly enough the charge that was used against the early christians by the
Romans was atheism.
--
Keith Barber
ane...@comcast.net
I am the housing fairy
Joann Evans
>
> http://tinyurl.com/3ug49
>
> RALEIGH, N.C. — This year, as Christmas season swung into gear, Pastor
> Patrick Wooden's followers fanned out to shopping malls across Raleigh to
> deliver a muscular message of holiday cheer: As Christian shoppers, they
> would like to be greeted with the phrase "Merry Christmas" — not a bland
> "Happy Holidays" — and stores that failed to do so would risk losing their
> business.
>
> they see as an attempt to force religion into the public square.
>
> and more often than in previous years.
>
> Christmas, complaining that secularists and nonbelievers have tried to
> obliterate the holiday's religious meaning.
>
> nativity scenes on government property. A California man has called for a
> boycott of Macy's and Bloomingdale's department stores, demanding the
> phrase "Merry Christmas" be used. In Denver, the mayor's attempt to remove
> "Merry Christmas" from a light display raised such a howl of protest that
> he reversed his decision.
>
>
> should acknowledge the birth of the child," said Wooden, pastor of the
> Upper Room Church of God in Christ.
>
> the humanists or the elitists" who dominate popular culture, said the Rev.
> Mark Creech of the Christian Action League of North Carolina, which is
> based in Raleigh.
>
> much an attack on us. It's an attack on Christ."
>
> secular aspects, said Penne Restad, a lecturer at the University of Texas
> at Austin and the author of "Christmas in America: A History."
>
> the nativity coincided with pre-Christian feasts, allowing observant
> Christians to "then go out the door and participate in Saturnalia," Restad
> said.
>
> In pre-Colonial days, English authorities looked on the holiday as a riot
> of drunkenness and hooliganism. American Puritans rejected it completely,
> preferring to get up and go to work. Not until the 1820s and '30s, with the
> holiday "getting rowdier and rowdier and more destructive," did Americans
> redefine it as a safe and private family time, Restad said — the "old-
> fashioned Christmas" celebrated in carols and Currier & Ives prints.
>
> Greatest Holiday," called complaints about secularization "complete and
> utter bunk."
>
> "If you think Christmas meant the baby Jesus in the past, it didn't," said
> Marling, a professor of art history at the University of Minnesota.
>
> celebrations — brought about not through the law, since private businesses
> are free to decorate as they like, but by a desire not to offend, a retail
> expert said.
>
> At Cary Towne Center, a mall just outside Raleigh, displays featured azure
> and white artificial trees, massive suspended ornaments and flakes of
> iridescent plastic which, from a distance, bore a resemblance to snow.
>
> Heather Vandeusen, manager at the Body Shop, which sells skin-care
> products, said off-site managers train her staff to say "Happy Holidays."
>
> "If my corporate allowed it, I wouldn't have a problem with it," said
> Vandeusen, 20. "I still say 'Merry Christmas,' personally."
>
> A major shift took place in the 1990s, when corporations became sensitive
> to complaints of customers on both ends of the political spectrum, said
> Russell Sway, international president of the Institute of Store Planners,
> an Atlanta-based association of design and merchandising specialists.
>
> "On the one hand, you have a board of directors who's yelling at you for
> doing anything that offends anyone. On the other hand, you have this group
> that's yelling at you for commercializing a religious holiday," Sway said.
>
> push back against that spirit of caution.
>
> the Raleigh News and Observer, urging Christians to "spend their hard-
> earned dollars with merchants who include the greeting Merry Christmas."
>
> critical of the advertisement:
>
> "What happened to the land that my parents, Eastern European immigrants,
> adopted as their beloved country — a country of fairness and tolerance?"
> wrote Harriet Lasher.
>
> An Episcopal priest wrote to compare the campaign to the Nazi policy
> requiring Jews to identify themselves with yellow stars.
>
> he was not disturbed by the advertisement, and hoped it was intended to
> "remind Christians that there is an essence to the holiday," not to shut
> out others.
>
> their own holiday," he said.
>
> aside money in the church budget — full-page ads cost about $7,600 — to buy
> a similar advertisement next year. Fresh off the fierce debate over same-
> sex marriage, which he opposes, he says condemnation from the left does not
> trouble him. On the contrary, he said: "It seems to me the greater the
> persecution, the stronger the church."
>
> this way: An ice-cream vendor doesn't have to like every flavor he sells.
>
> "There's one group of people who get bullied all the time, and that's
> Christians," he said. "I know what it is like to be bullied. It is
> apartheid in reverse — the majority is being bullied by the minority."
>
> Little has changed at Cary Towne Center, where Wooden's members delivered
> letters in late October: Festoons of tiny lights twinkle from the ceiling,
> garlands of artificial pine deck the halls, and the word "Christmas" is
> hard to find. Phyllis Maultsby, who owns the shop Light Years Jewelry, said
> pressure would not change her holiday decorating choices.
>
> "I'm not going to be influenced, because we embrace diversity," Maultsby
> said. "I certainly would never want to feel like I was being bullied."
>
> But some retailers say they're behaving a little differently this season.
>
> finds it easier — more comfortable — to wish people a "Merry Christmas"
> this year, as if after years of careful "Happy Holidays," he had suddenly
> been given permission.
>
>
> Christmas, he is more conscious than ever of "a conspiracy of leftist-
> leaning people that want to bring down traditional values in our country,"
> he said.
If they'll all wear a big 'C' and/or a cross on their sleeves, so
I'll know at a glance, fine.
Of course, the last time someone required something like that....
--
You know what to remove, to reply....
Joann Evans
>
> > "There's one group of people who get bullied all the time, and that's
> > Christians," he said. "I know what it is like to be bullied. It is
> > apartheid in reverse — the majority is being bullied by the minority."
>
> Oh yes, the poor oppressed Christians. I'd like to see
> this guy truly bullied. When was the last time he was
> beat up for being Christian? If he was, say, gay, he'd
> have to worry about a damn sight more than being
> bullied. He'd have to worry about being killed.
There was a time and place where they *were* a persecuted minority.
After all, it appears that Jesus was born (by today's calendar) in the
*spring* of 4 B.C. The early Christians did their celebration at this
time of year precisely so as not to stand out much during the Roman
'Saturnilia' during the winter solstice (a time important to other
cultures and beliefs as well) when they were doing their own partying.
So if he really wants to be a purist, he can refuse to celerate in
December after all. God forbid there might be an association with a
'pagan' holiday as well...
Joann Evans
> ya know............
>
> to every OTHER group out there who gets upset at the sight of Christmas
> displays and the like, the answer is very simple:
>
> Put up your Menorrah next to the manger and join in the festivities and shut
> the fuck up! And whatever Kwanza, Tet< Ramadan, fill in the blank symbol
> you bring with you. Make it a celebration and quit trying to deny the
> holiday for the rest of us.
Indeed. For those who have a problem with a general 'Happy Holidays,'
I say;
Is this a holiday period for you?
Are you happy?
Cool. End Of Story.
Veronique
> Veronique said:
> >> Pete opined:
> >> The Romans had the right idea about what to do with Xians...Pete
> >
> >
> > Reminds me of many years ago, when the National Zoo acquired a
couple
> > new lions. To this day, I cannot remember where they were from,
because
> > I was told we were going to see "the Christian-eating lions."
> >
>
> Oddly enough the charge that was used against the early christians by
the
> Romans was atheism.
Probably because "Annoying Fuckwit" wasn't on the books.
nil...@invalid.com.au
Message-ID:<1103427682....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
posted on 18 Dec 2004 19:41:22 -0800, Veronique wrote:
>Keith Barber wrote:
>> Veronique said:
>> >> Pete opined:
>
>> >> The Romans had the right idea about what to do with Xians...Pete
>> >
>> >
>> > Reminds me of many years ago, when the National Zoo acquired a
>couple
>> > new lions. To this day, I cannot remember where they were from,
>because
>> > I was told we were going to see "the Christian-eating lions."
>> >
>>
>> Oddly enough the charge that was used against the early Christians by
>the
>> Romans was atheism.
>
>
>Probably because "Annoying Fuckwit" wasn't on the books.
>V.
Hmm, well, if I remember my ancient history, the Jews led
Pontius Pilate the Roman procurator to crucify Jesus around
31 AD. The Roman Emperor Constantine didn't legalize
Christianity until around 313 AD.
Any argument with these dates, Veronique? If you prefer
some fairly close ones we can debate them.
In any case, I will propose that the Christians between
these two dates may have considered any current Roman
emperor as a "annoying fuckwit", or worse. So perhaps the
Latin equivalent of the term "annoying fuckwit" was banned
or at least discouraged.
Regards,
"nilkids"
Beaker
There was just a bit on BBC radio about some dim-wit alarmist x-tians
claiming that x-tians were on the way to becoming a persecuted minority
under the jackboot of "secularism", and that x-tianity would have to go
underground and people would have to perform acts of civil disobedience
to exersize their faith and whatnot. It was just bizarre.
bkr
J.D. Spangler
veroniq...@yahoo.com says...
BWAHAHAHAHAHA! :^D
I believe it.
--
Regards,
J.D. Spangler,
hotshit Smart Alec 7th Grader Whom Just Learned to Cuss
http://www.ayrsayle.net
"Ideally someone's religion should have about as much importance
to me as what they had for breakfast. As long as they're not
regurgitating it on me I really shouldn't have to give a damn."
J.D. Spangler
alecon...@btinet.net says...
>
>
>http://tinyurl.com/3ug49
>
>RALEIGH, N.C. — This year, as Christmas season swung into gear, Pastor
>Patrick Wooden's followers fanned out to shopping malls across Raleigh to
>deliver a muscular message of holiday cheer: As Christian shoppers, they
>would like to be greeted with the phrase "Merry Christmas" — not a bland
>"Happy Holidays" — and stores that failed to do so would risk losing their
>business.
>Here in Raleigh, the grass-roots campaigning has focused on retailers. And
>it's been so invigorating that the church is making plans for next year,
>said Wooden, a barrel-chested former football player who leads a
>conservative black congregation of about 3,000.
Do we need to know his physical stats and past accomplishments? What, is he
going to tackle us into believing?
>"Our position is: If they want the gold, frankincense and myrrh, they
>should acknowledge the birth of the child," said Wooden, pastor of the
>Upper Room Church of God in Christ.
What a dipshit. Those were presents, not money.
Has anyone else tried myrrh incense? Rather nice, actually. Or maybe I'm just
weird that way. :^D
>Conservative Americans feel ready to push back against "the secularists or
>the humanists or the elitists" who dominate popular culture, said the Rev.
>Mark Creech of the Christian Action League of North Carolina, which is
>based in Raleigh.
>
>"It's a cultural war. We are in the thick of it," Creech said. "It's not so
>much an attack on us. It's an attack on Christ."
I'll tell you what is it. Now that they've "won" the current U.S. political
situation, they need to find a new source of martyrdom.
As I pointed out to my dear old religious gran, Xtians in this country will be
persecuted when they start shutting down churches and hanging preachers. Till
then, all they got to bitch about is not being allowed to preach on the
government's dime.
<snip>
>"I don't see anything to gain by offending others, but many of us are
>offended ourselves," said Jones, who owns a remodeling business. "I think
>we — the collective we — are allowing a small minority of people to rule
>our lives. I'm opposed to that."
>
>His wife bought cards that read "Happy Holidays" this year, Jones said, but
>he was careful to ink "Merry Christmas" onto every one of them.
And he couldn't just buy cards that said "Merry Christmas"? What a tool.
Sparrow 13
> The Romans had the right idea about what to do with Xians.
Ave! To the lions with 'em all.
"I'm gonna get my kicks before the whole shithouse goes up in flames"
--some dead drunkard
Sparrow 13
Beaker
> Pete wrote...
>
>> The Romans had the right idea about what to do with Xians.
>
> Ave! To the lions with 'em all.
Even in jest, this would be very tasteless.
bkr
Beaker
Uh, by tasteless I mean your comments, not the flavor of the xtians.
bkr
Sparrow 13
> Oddly enough the charge that was used against the early christians by the
> Romans was atheism.
When modern-day christers piss and moan about the wicked heathens in Rome who
used to feed them to lions and light them on fire to use as street lamps and
everything, they never mention the reasons the Romans (who were pretty tolerant
of most of the many other religions practiced in their far-flung empire) dealt
with them thus.
1} The early christians believed, as do many now, that they were living in
their own End Times. Their desire to hasten the end of the world (or at least
he city of Rome) took the form of wide-spread arson. Christians set the fire
during which Nero is alleged to have played his violin.
2} Christians of that era were also prone to incite riots, and to harass, stone
and assault Pagans near their Deities' temples; mobs of devout chickenshits
were responsible for many hideous murders. Of particular note is the case of
Hypatia, a learned Pagan woman who was known throughout the civilized world as
one of the most brilliant scholars and thinkers of her time. Fired up by street
preachers who denounced her as an abomination and a teacher of blasphemy, a
jackal-mob of christians fell upon her entourage in the public streets and
killed them all - saving the choicest fate for the wisewoman Hypatia herself,
who was flayed alive and cut to pieces with broken mollusc shells.
To the lions with the lot of 'em.
iameveryman
|| Caine wrote:
||
||| http://tinyurl.com/3ug49
|||
||| RALEIGH, N.C. — This year, as Christmas season swung into gear,
||| Pastor Patrick Wooden's followers fanned out to shopping malls
||| across Raleigh to deliver a muscular message of holiday cheer: As
||| Christian shoppers, they would like to be greeted with the phrase
||| "Merry Christmas" — not a bland "Happy Holidays" — and stores that
||| failed to do so would risk losing their business.
|||
||| what they see as an attempt to force religion into the public
||| square.
|||
||| But others say "Merry Christmas" is rolling off their tongues more
||| easily and more often than in previous years.
|||
||| Conservative Christians nationwide have converged around the topic
||| of Christmas, complaining that secularists and nonbelievers have
||| tried to obliterate the holiday's religious meaning.
|||
||| In Oklahoma and Miami, local skirmishes have erupted over the
||| display of nativity scenes on government property. A California man
||| has called for a boycott of Macy's and Bloomingdale's department
||| stores, demanding the phrase "Merry Christmas" be used. In Denver,
||| the mayor's attempt to remove "Merry Christmas" from a light
||| display raised such a howl of protest that he reversed his decision.
|||
||| retailers. And it's been so invigorating that the church is making
||| plans for next year, said Wooden, a barrel-chested former football
||| player who leads a conservative black congregation of about 3,000.
||
|| don't say "Merry Christmas"
||
What the fuck would a secular humanist asswipe like YOU about anything?
|| Aren't Christians supposed to be doing good works?
|| ----------
||
|| Matthew 25
||
|| 35 For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye
|| gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
||
|| 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in
|| prison, and ye came unto me.
||
|| 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we
|| thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
||
|| 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and
|| clothed thee?
||
|| 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
||
|| 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto
|| you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my
|| brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Keith Barber
news:mmbas0pe9lfcl1tpg...@fe02.buzzardnews.com:
> To the lions with the lot of 'em.
>
I agree, except we should be sure that it won't cause harm to the lions.
Rabbit
>>giggle< Passover=Easter :)
Yes, I know. What's your point?
Rabbit
Rabbit
"Beaker" <b...@llama.pilz.kak> wrote in message
news:slrncsa6g...@shell2.speakeasy.net...
Oh, ye gods. When churches start paying taxes, when there aren't a dozen of
them open in every little town, when you can't buy crosses at the jewellery
store, when you can't buy Bibles at every big-box bookstore, when I can turn
the TV on Sunday morning and see something other than preachers, when card
shops no longer sell Christ-themed Christmas cards, then maybe, just MAYBE,
I'll think there's the tiniest, atom-sized shred of evidence to what these
fuckwits are claiming.
Rabbit
Rabbit
>>but
>>he was careful to ink "Merry Christmas" onto every one of them.
>
> And he couldn't just buy cards that said "Merry Christmas"? What a tool.
That's probably the saddest of all. If there isn't a "Merry Christmas" card
to be had, you've got a point. If you're too fucking stupid to get your own
house in order and buy the ones you want, you don't deserve the press' time
to complain about it.
Rabbit
J.D. Spangler
You wanna know something interesting? One of the beliefs of the Church of Satan
is that ALL churches(including themselves) should pay taxes.
Salome
> Oh, ye gods. When churches start paying taxes, when there aren't a dozen
> of them open in every little town, when you can't buy crosses at the
> jewellery store, when you can't buy Bibles at every big-box bookstore,
> when I can turn the TV on Sunday morning and see something other than
> preachers, when card shops no longer sell Christ-themed Christmas cards,
> then maybe, just MAYBE, I'll think there's the tiniest, atom-sized shred
> of evidence to what these fuckwits are claiming.
... And when the Catholic church stops grabbing control of all the hospitals
in towns like this one, with all the hideous baggage that brings...
Salome
"let's see, shall I go to Deaconess, Sacred Heart, or Holy Famblee for my
lobotomy?"
Rabbit
> I thought red and green were pagan colors.
>
No. Stoplights.
Rabbit
tom c
"Rabbit" <rab...@sorryspammers.com> wrote in message
news:32m79hF...@individual.net...
>
>> I thought red and green were pagan colors.
>>
>
> No. Stoplights.
>
Pagan Stoplights? Everyone does stop and worship them saying the sacred
screed:
"Fucking change already!"
Once this mantra has been chanted enough to mollify the fickle god of
transportation the holy light changes color and lets the worshipper proceed.
Tom C
Todd Isaac
Yea he should be celebreting in August. The most likely time that a
Roman census would have been occuring.
Todd Isaac
>
>
>
> Hmm, well, if I remember my ancient history, the Jews led
> Pontius Pilate the Roman procurator to crucify Jesus around
> 31 AD. The Roman Emperor Constantine didn't legalize
> Christianity until around 313 AD.
The Edict of Milan in 313, gave Christianity legal status. But before
that some Christians were tolerated it all depended on who you were.
Most of the persecuted Christians in the 200s where poor. Othere were
turned in for polictical reason or to gain property. There were certain
areas of the Empire that were considered safe for Christians. There
were some Christian soldiers and even Christian governors.
>
> Any argument with these dates, Veronique? If you prefer
> some fairly close ones we can debate them.
>
> In any case, I will propose that the Christians between
> these two dates may have considered any current Roman
> emperor as a "annoying fuckwit", or worse. So perhaps the
> Latin equivalent of the term "annoying fuckwit" was banned
> or at least discouraged.
incommodus copulaspiritus
>
> Regards,
> "nilkids"
>
>
Keith Barber
news:vgobs0hs893d5bcf3...@4ax.com:
> I thought red and green were pagan colors.
>
we get our own colors now, cool.
Jeri Jo Thomas
this important missive...
Q:Pagan Stoplights? Everyone does stop and worship them saying the sacred
Q:screed:
Q:
Q:"Fucking change already!"
Q:
Q:Once this mantra has been chanted enough to mollify the fickle god of
Q:transportation the holy light changes color and lets the worshipper proceed
Q:
Imagine that, I'm a Pagan.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Important MWS documents ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The MWS FAQ: http://www.online-communicator.com/faqs.html
Filtering Trolls: http://www.schmuckwithanunderwood.com/trolls.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
nomad
Rabbit, who votes LIEbrawl, the Canadian political party of STD-ridden
sodomites.
nomad
|| On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 00:01:20 -0800, Sparrow 13
|| <1...@NOSPAMslavehouse.org> wrote:
||
||| Christians of that era were also prone to incite riots, and to
||| harass, stone and assault Pagans near their Deities' temples; mobs
||| of devout chickenshits were responsible for many hideous murders.
||| Of particular note is the case of Hypatia,
||
|| wannabe-witchburners really DO understand the good ol'-fashioned
|| back-to-basics True Meaning Of Christianity.
YEah, right, better we have a bunch of STD-ridden types and their fembo
friends running the country.
||
|| -- Michelle
||
|| Please, Don't Breed or Buy While Shelter Pets Die.
Rabbit
> Rabbit, who votes LIEbrawl, the Canadian political party of STD-ridden
> sodomites.
So you were the asshole who wouldn't move away from me at the voting booth,
Sharx?
Yeah. I THOUGHT you were the one who couldn't figure out how to make an X
and needed someone else to show you.
Rabbit
Abbie F.
towns, wingers are making a point to use red and green lights in
displays/decorations because those "old-fashioned" colors represent
"real" Christmas. (I guess as opposed to those liberal white lights and
things...g!)
While it may be possible to decorate in a tasteful way by festooning
your landing pad with a runway of red and green crosses, it's not
bloody likely! No town could force me to stop using classic white
lights and stars, which are purposefully unbiased so as not to alienate
my friends of many faiths with an uncomfortable reception that
suggests possible bigotry lies in store. I guess these towns don't
notice the existence of other wintertime celebrations, or care what
visitors may think. Since white is an amalgam of every color, red and
green are included, so they can plug *that* into their sockets.
Veronique
J.D. Spangler wrote:
> Caine posted:
> >
> >
> >http://tinyurl.com/3ug49
> >His wife bought cards that read "Happy Holidays" this year, Jones
said, but
> >he was careful to ink "Merry Christmas" onto every one of them.
>
> And he couldn't just buy cards that said "Merry Christmas"? What a
tool.
So if he hadn't been careful, he would have written "Happy Eid"? Or was
actually using his own pen and hand to inscribe a personal greeting
just too, too much?
V.
--
Veronique Chez Sheep
Rabbit
> towns, wingers are making a point to use red and green lights in
> displays/decorations because those "old-fashioned" colors represent
> "real" Christmas. (I guess as opposed to those liberal white lights and
> things...g!)
>
Electric Christmas lights mimic the candles Germans put on their trees --
which mimicked the moon and stars through the branches that <name escapes
me> saw when he first got the idea to bring one inside. Hence it's only
logical that "old-fashioned" Christmas lights would be white ...
Rabbit
Beth Cole
Tradition says it was Martin Luther that brought the first tree inside.
My guess is that it would be older than that, though.
Beth
--
The problems of the world cannot possibly be solved by skeptics or
cynics whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities. We need men
who can dream of things that never were. --John F. Kennedy
our home page: http://www.IsleOfSky.net
Abbie F.
news:1103568893.0...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
>
> So if he hadn't been careful, he would have written "Happy Eid"? Or was
> actually using his own pen and hand to inscribe a personal greeting
> just too, too much?
>
>
> V.
> --
> Veronique Chez Sheep
>
Happy E.I. Day - a holiday started by fans of the hip hop artist Nelly. As
part of this celebration, they stay off Usenet for 24 hours.
"Andele andele mami..."
--
- Abbie CF +++F TK ++++ TPI +++ A ++++ VF +++
Nureyev on why he never had kydz: "They wouldn't be as good as I am,
and then I wouldn't know what to do with the little imbeciles."
The Rocket Scientist
Sparrow 13 wrote:
> Pete wrote...
>
> > The Romans had the right idea about what to do with Xians.
>
> Ave! To the lions with 'em all.
I remember a cartoon set in ancient Roman time where a lion was
petrified ar being thrown to the Christians.
Anybody remember it?
Bill Sullivan
Shepard's Prayer-
"Oh Lord, please don't let me screw up!"
No kids for you or from you
>>>giggle< Passover=Easter :)
>
>Yes, I know. What's your point?
>
>Rabbit
I thought we were talking about winter holidays. So I thought Passover was
funny.
From: Nokids4you
Hey breeder, why don't you save your
breath for blowing up water wings!
deer...@mindspring.com
"Abbie F." wrote:
>
> While it may be possible to decorate in a tasteful way by festooning
> your landing pad with a runway of red and green crosses, it's not
> bloody likely! No town could force me to stop using classic white
> lights and stars, which are purposefully unbiased so as not to alienate
> my friends of many faiths with an uncomfortable reception that
> suggests possible bigotry lies in store. I guess these towns don't
> notice the existence of other wintertime celebrations, or care what
> visitors may think. Since white is an amalgam of every color, red and
> green are included, so they can plug *that* into their sockets.
I'm honestly not getting this light color deal. The earliest and
most popular mass-produced Xmas lights (with the big-mug bulbs) came
in tons of colors, including pink and yellow. (And I know this not
just from memory, but because my parents still have strings they
bought back when I was a kid--g!) It was only in the last 20 years
or so you could get single-color lights. Unless I've missed
something in terms of history or personal experience, there was
never a time when red and green were the "official" Xmas light
colors.
C.
**
(confused...)
kali95
> In article <32lfsuF...@individual.net>, rab...@sorryspammers.com says...
> >
> >
> >
> >"Beaker" <b...@llama.pilz.kak> wrote in message
> >news:slrncsa6g...@shell2.speakeasy.net...
> >>
> >> There was just a bit on BBC radio about some dim-wit alarmist x-tians
> >> claiming that x-tians were on the way to becoming a persecuted minority
> >> under the jackboot of "secularism", and that x-tianity would have to go
> >> underground and people would have to perform acts of civil disobedience
> >> to exersize their faith and whatnot. It was just bizarre.
> >>
> >> bkr
> >>
> >
> >Oh, ye gods. When churches start paying taxes, when there aren't a dozen of
> >them open in every little town, when you can't buy crosses at the jewellery
> >store, when you can't buy Bibles at every big-box bookstore, when I can turn
> >the TV on Sunday morning and see something other than preachers, when card
> >shops no longer sell Christ-themed Christmas cards, then maybe, just MAYBE,
> >I'll think there's the tiniest, atom-sized shred of evidence to what these
> >fuckwits are claiming.
>
> You wanna know something interesting? One of the beliefs of the Church of Satan
> is that ALL churches(including themselves) should pay taxes.
Speaking of which, did anyone catch the latest xmas South Park? Fucking hilarious, and
somewhat on-topic (if you count mountain lions performing an abortion on-topic).
*k
Karl Grüber
> http://tinyurl.com/3ug49
>
> RALEIGH, N.C. — This year, as Christmas season swung into gear, Pastor
> Patrick Wooden's followers fanned out to shopping malls across Raleigh to
> deliver a muscular message of holiday cheer: As Christian shoppers, they
> would like to be greeted with the phrase "Merry Christmas" — not a bland
> "Happy Holidays" — and stores that failed to do so would risk losing their
> business.
Good riddance. Anyone who gets their knickers in a twist over a
greeting might not be the type of customer most stores would like to
have. Perhaps they'd prefer a cheery FOAD! instead?
> Conservative Christians nationwide have converged around the topic of
> Christmas, complaining that secularists and nonbelievers have tried to
> obliterate the holiday's religious meaning.
As opposed to the Christians who co-opted the solstice holidays of other
faiths for their own use many centuries ago?
> Conservative Americans feel ready to push back against "the
> secularists or the humanists or the elitists" who dominate popular
> culture, said the Rev. Mark Creech of the Christian Action League of
> North Carolina, which is based in Raleigh.
Never mind that it's the conservative fundies who have a
disproportionate share of power in the country -- a country that has a
government based upon a secular constitution -- and they want even more.
> Wooden, 43, considers the campaign such a success that he has already
> set aside money in the church budget — full-page ads cost about
> $7,600 — to buy a similar advertisement next year. Fresh off the
> fierce debate over same- sex marriage, which he opposes, he says
> condemnation from the left does not trouble him. On the contrary, he
> said: "It seems to me the greater the persecution, the stronger the
> church."
>
> As far as complaints from people of other religions go, Wooden looks at it
> this way: An ice-cream vendor doesn't have to like every flavor he sells.
Maybe it's late, but he lost me there. WTF does ice cream have to do
with the subject of the Religious Right shoving their religion down the
throats of anyone who doesn't share their religious beliefs?
> "There's one group of people who get bullied all the time, and that's
> Christians," he said. "I know what it is like to be bullied. It is
> apartheid in reverse — the majority is being bullied by the minority."
GMAFB. Christians being bullied? Where? Certainly not in the US.
Just because they can't (yes, but give the Neo-Cons more time) have the
government promote their religion does not amount to bullying on the
part of the infidels.
As far as the apartheid comment, let's just say that facts never seem to
get in the way of a good persecution story for these folks.
> "I think the Christians are out of the closet," Coggins said.
Huh? When, in the past 1600 years, were they in the closet? You can't
go anywhere in the US and not be made aware of their presence, from
churches practically anywhere you look to Christian artifacts in stores,
street preachers bellowing out their tales of horror to be encountered
by those who spurn their religious messages, religious programming on
what seems like half the radio stations and several TV stations. Not to
mention our Preacher-in-Chief in the White House.
> Ed Jones, president of the Greater Raleigh Merchants Assn., agreed. This
> Christmas, he is more conscious than ever of "a conspiracy of leftist-
> leaning people that want to bring down traditional values in our country,"
> he said.
>
> "I don't see anything to gain by offending others, but many of us are
> offended ourselves," said Jones, who owns a remodeling business. "I think
> we — the collective we — are allowing a small minority of people to rule
> our lives. I'm opposed to that."
But apparently gleeful at the prospect of foisting his religious beliefs
on the minority. Here's a clue for you Ed, one of the founding
principles of the US was the protection of the minority from the tyranny
of the majority. I realize you and your fellow Bible-thumpers don't
like that, and that you keep repeating the same tired lies and
distortions hoping the clueless will buy into your fantasy world, but
you can't change history. Unfortunately, they can change the government
if they aren't stopped.
--
karlg (at) crunchyfrog (dot) net
If I want to hear the pitter-patter of little feet around the house,
I'll put shoes on the cats.
Kent
> > RALEIGH, N.C. - This year, as Christmas season swung into gear, Pastor
> > Patrick Wooden's followers fanned out to shopping malls across Raleigh
to
> > deliver a muscular message of holiday cheer: As Christian shoppers, they
> > "Happy Holidays" - and stores that failed to do so would risk losing
their
> > business.
> > Wooden, 43, considers the campaign such a success that he has already
> > $7,600 - to buy a similar advertisement next year.
Oh, yes. Right here in my back yard. This has flooded the LTTE pages (you'll
be pleased to know that almost all of the letter-writers think this guy is a
total loony) and spawned op-ed columns (also, reading between the lines,
calling him a loony) for about a month now.
Frankly, if I were still in the retail biz, I'd be mighty pleased to know
there was a "magic word" to keep these thumpers from crossing my threshhold.
Anyway, considering most of the bored teensproggen who are working in stores
these days, you're damn lucky to get any acknowledgement of your presence
whatsoever, let alone any kind of "greeting". I can't recall the last time
I've heard even "Happy Holidays".
Kent
No kids for you or from you
>Anyway, considering most of the bored teensproggen who are working in stores
>these days, you're damn lucky to get any acknowledgement of your presence
>whatsoever, let alone any kind of "greeting". I can't recall the last time
>I've heard even "Happy Holidays".
I went shopping today and the poor guy behind the counter wished me "happy
holiday" like he was muttering swear words in church. It was kind of sad and
funny at the same time.
Hatt...@gmail.com
How "secularly oppresive" is a society:
That gives special tax free status to religion
That what particular part of (i.e. Catholic, OH No!) Christianity can
effect who is elected President
Futhermore an Atheist cannot even get on the fourth page of the paper
when he announces his attempt at the office
That accepts faith based inititive funding
That recognizes Christian holdiays for governemnt workers
That has multiple religous TV channels on cable
Even Network News covers Easter and Christmas related events
That had The President of US announce that he thinks Atheist should be
denied citzens rights on camera, and noone hardly
blinks
Really....oppressed my ass.
Hatter
Hatt...@gmail.com
Hatt...@gmail.com
Hatt...@gmail.com
Hatt...@gmail.com
Michelle Martin
Hatt...@gmail.com wrote:
Or a government that gives over a million dollars to a bible school that
has 37 (count em') students, as seen here:
(from Anchorage (Alaska) Daily News)
JUNEAU -- Tucked away in spruce woods off the Kenai Spur Highway is a
new Bible college with just 37 students. It's a little-known enclave of
evangelism, counseling and congressional spending.
Alaska's congressional delegation has delivered more than $1 million to
Alaska Christian College over the past two years. That's more than
$20,000 per student and about equal to what the school president figured
is a full year's operating costs. Most of the federal funds go to
teacher salaries, student scholarships and recruitment.
Rest of story here:
http://www.adn.com/front/story/5935677p-5842239c.html
Michelle
--
Those who live too long with unquestioned contradictions are not
apt to be able to deal with reality when it eventually befalls
them. --Gore Vidal--
Karl Grüber
> Or a government that gives over a million dollars to a bible school that
> has 37 (count em') students, as seen here:
>
> (from Anchorage (Alaska) Daily News)
>
> JUNEAU -- Tucked away in spruce woods off the Kenai Spur Highway is a
> new Bible college with just 37 students. It's a little-known enclave of
> evangelism, counseling and congressional spending.
>
> Alaska's congressional delegation has delivered more than $1 million to
> Alaska Christian College over the past two years. That's more than
> $20,000 per student and about equal to what the school president figured
> is a full year's operating costs. Most of the federal funds go to
> teacher salaries, student scholarships and recruitment.
>
> Rest of story here:
>
> http://www.adn.com/front/story/5935677p-5842239c.html
*BLINK*
A "college" with 37 students that is not accredited and offers no
degrees gets truckloads of federal tax money thrown at it? Furthermore,
this "college" claims to be preparing students to go on to other schools
for degrees yet it doesn't offer courses in math or English? I don't
think that Bible studies, ministry, worship, and choir courses are going
to do much to prepare students for further study at a real university,
though it does sound like those courses meet the "college's" vision of
"preparing disciples to return to rural Alaska to minter where there is
a void of leaders."
This is the type of innovation in education that the federal Fund for
the Improvement of Postsecondary Education is funding? Ugh.
ghoul
put up your mennorah and get some egg nog and join in the festivities and
stop trying to be a pissant minority ruining it for the majority. Idiot
liberal scum. Oh how I can't stand you liberal hypocrites.
mroo philpott-smythe
>> "There's one group of people who get bullied all the time, and that's
>> Christians," he said. "I know what it is like to be bullied. It is
>> apartheid in reverse — the majority is being bullied by the minority."
>
> Oh yes, the poor oppressed Christians. I'd like to see
> this guy truly bullied. When was the last time he was
> beat up for being Christian? If he was, say, gay, he'd
> have to worry about a damn sight more than being
> bullied. He'd have to worry about being killed.
Isn't it the "poor oppressed Christians" who usually kill the gay people?
sq, "Thinking about Matthew Shepard, here"
mroo philpott-smythe
news:32j9mqF...@individual.net:
>
>> Conservative Christians nationwide have converged around the topic of
>> Christmas, complaining that secularists and nonbelievers have tried
>> to obliterate the holiday's religious meaning.
>>
>
> I find it hard to believe that the 427,386 people all vying for
> parking spots at the mall yesterday are secularists and nonbelievers.
> In fact, I heard plenty of Christianity mentioned within -- people
> standing there yelling, "Jesus Christ, what the Hell am I going to
> buy?!"
>
> Conservative Christians should get it through their inch-thick skulls
> that it's possible to have faith even when the rest of the world
> doesn't bow down and worship as they do. If I say "Happy Holidays" to
> you, does that mean that Christmas is no longer about Christ to you?
> Good fucking lord, I never dreamed I had so much power! I can bring
> down the whole faith with two secular words!
>
> For fuck's sake, if I don't go up to a Jew and wish him a happy
> Passover, my guess is good that he still goes home and does the whole
> ceremony with his family, and they all still believe, and their God
> smiles down upon them and life is good.
>
> In North America, a Christian is still free to worship at the
> (tax-free) church of his choice, one of which is found in just about
> any place where more than three people reside; he can buy a Bible in
> just about any bookstore, secular, Christian or otherwise; he can go
> into just about any jewellery store and buy a gold cross, and wear it
> around his neck wherever he chooses to go. He can write "Merry
> Christmas" on his card (and possibly buy a post-office-approved
> Christmas-themed stamp) and have it delivered anywhere he wants it to
> go.
>
> He can sing Christmas carols, most of which are piped into the mall
> whether we want to hear them or not. He can put up a Christmas tree,
> and if he chooses, decorate his house to look like a whorehouse on LSD
> while using eight times the energy anyone really should be consuming.
> He can buy Christmas-themed wrapping paper in the dollar store; he can
> buy Christ-themed cards at Hallmark; he can buy Christ-themed
> Christmas ornaments at any card shop.
>
> And because I might happen to say "Happy Holidays" to him instead of
> "Merry Christmas", his world and his feelings and his sensibilities
> are so paper-thin that he doesn't know what to do? Give me a
> motherfucking break. Conserative Christians wonder why there's a
> backlash against them. Well, you assholes, here's news for you -- you
> brought it on yourselves.
I'm not going to say Word One about how like fundie Muslims the fundie
Xtians are. Nope. Not one. damned. word.
sq, "Sick of those fucking Xmas Carols already"
mroo philpott-smythe
news:32m8idF...@individual.net:
> "Rabbit" <rab...@sorryspammers.com> wrote in message
> news:32m79hF...@individual.net...
>>> I thought red and green were pagan colors.
>> No. Stoplights.
> Pagan Stoplights? Everyone does stop and worship them saying the
> sacred screed:
> "Fucking change already!"
> Once this mantra has been chanted enough to mollify the fickle god of
> transportation the holy light changes color and lets the worshipper
> proceed.
Unless one is trying to park, in which case, one sez:
Oh, Parking Fairy, Full of grace,
Please help me find a parking space
sq, "Or maybe that's just in SF, aka FairyLand"
mroo philpott-smythe
@newssvr21-ext.news.prodigy.com:
> In article <Xns95C354CA5D25...@news.individual.net>,
> Caine <alecon...@btinet.net> wrote:
>> Conservative Christians nationwide have converged around the topic of
>> Christmas, complaining that secularists and nonbelievers have tried to
>> obliterate the holiday's religious meaning.
> They say that like it's a bad thing.
> The Romans had the right idea about what to do with Xians...Pete
There aren't enough lions left.
sq, "regretfully"
mroo philpott-smythe
news:mmbas0pe9lfcl1tpg...@fe02.buzzardnews.com:
> Keith Barber wrote...
>> Oddly enough the charge that was used against the early christians by
>> the Romans was atheism.
> When modern-day christers piss and moan about the wicked heathens in
> Rome who used to feed them to lions and light them on fire to use as
> street lamps and everything, they never mention the reasons the Romans
> (who were pretty tolerant of most of the many other religions
> practiced in their far-flung empire) dealt with them thus.
> 1} The early christians believed, as do many now, that they were
> living in their own End Times. Their desire to hasten the end of the
> world (or at least he city of Rome) took the form of wide-spread
> arson. Christians set the fire during which Nero is alleged to have
> played his violin.
> 2} Christians of that era were also prone to incite riots, and to
> harass, stone and assault Pagans near their Deities' temples; mobs of
> devout chickenshits were responsible for many hideous murders. Of
> particular note is the case of Hypatia, a learned Pagan woman who was
> known throughout the civilized world as one of the most brilliant
> scholars and thinkers of her time. Fired up by street preachers who
> denounced her as an abomination and a teacher of blasphemy, a
> jackal-mob of christians fell upon her entourage in the public streets
> and killed them all - saving the choicest fate for the wisewoman
> Hypatia herself, who was flayed alive and cut to pieces with broken
> mollusc shells.
> To the lions with the lot of 'em.
I like you a lot, but must disagree with you here. What have the lions
ever done to you, that you'd wish such a horrible fate on them?
sq, "Let them eat each other!"
Steve Rush
> Michelle Martin <mik...@delete.yahoo.com> wrote ...
>
>> Or a government that gives over a million dollars to a bible school
>> that has 37 (count em') students, as seen here:
>>
>> (from Anchorage (Alaska) Daily News)
>>
>> JUNEAU -- Tucked away in spruce woods off the Kenai Spur Highway is a
>> new Bible college with just 37 students. It's a little-known enclave of
>> evangelism, counseling and congressional spending.
>>
>> Alaska's congressional delegation has delivered more than $1 million
>> to
>> Alaska Christian College over the past two years. That's more than
>> $20,000 per student and about equal to what the school president
>> figured is a full year's operating costs. Most of the federal funds go
>> to teacher salaries, student scholarships and recruitment.
>>
>> Rest of story here:
>>
>> http://www.adn.com/front/story/5935677p-5842239c.html
>
> *BLINK*
>
> A "college" with 37 students that is not accredited and offers no
> degrees gets truckloads of federal tax money thrown at it? <snip>
> This is the type of innovation in education that the federal Fund for
> the Improvement of Postsecondary Education is funding? Ugh.
Obviously, the owners of this "college" include somebody who Knows
Somebody.
Captain Sensible
I'm sensible
Keith Barber
news:Xns95C6D323CC...@216.240.32.176:
> Unless one is trying to park, in which case, one sez:
>
> Oh, Parking Fairy, Full of grace,
> Please help me find a parking space
>
I'll speak to him for you.
--
Keith Barber
ane...@comcast.net
I am the housing fairy
tom c
"Michelle Martin" <mik...@delete.yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mikkirm-37AA51...@corp.supernews.com...
> Alaska's congressional delegation has delivered more than $1 million to
> Alaska Christian College over the past two years. That's more than
> $20,000 per student and about equal to what the school president figured
> is a full year's operating costs. Most of the federal funds go to
> teacher salaries, student scholarships and recruitment.
>
It's because the basketball and football teams really suck.
Tom C
Veronique
> "Michelle Martin" <mik...@delete.yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Alaska's congressional delegation has delivered more than $1
million to
> > Alaska Christian College over the past two years. That's more than
> > $20,000 per student and about equal to what the school president
figured
> > is a full year's operating costs. Most of the federal funds go to
> > teacher salaries, student scholarships and recruitment.
> >
>
> It's because the basketball and football teams really suck.
>
///spwhoosh// Oh crap, tea out the nose.
V.
--
Veronique Chez Sheep
Circe
>
>
> Isn't it the "poor oppressed Christians" who usually kill the gay people?
>
> sq, "Thinking about Matthew Shepard, here"
Exactly who I was thinking of.
--
Circe
I used to be disgusted. Now I try to be amused.
Michelle Martin
Steve Rush <steverush1@SPAM_ME_NOT.cox.net> wrote:
Probably. Or just was on speaking terms with our congresscritters.
Alaska is (in)famous for the amount of pork brought home by its
Representative and Senators, especially from Senator "Uncle" Ted
Stevens.
We get way more in federal funding than we should be getting. I think
the only time we got a "no" from the feds is when our current governor
wanted to use some of Alaska's Homeland Security funds to buy himself a
private jet. That didn't go anywhere, fortunately.
mroo philpott-smythe
o...@giganews.com:
> "mroo philpott-smythe" <sqa...@hatglovesidiom.com> wrote in
> news:Xns95C6D323CC...@216.240.32.176:
>> Unless one is trying to park, in which case, one sez:
>> Oh, Parking Fairy, Full of grace,
>> Please help me find a parking space
> I'll speak to him for you.
%^D From now on I'll think of you when I invoke the Parking Fairy.
sq
mroo philpott-smythe
news:8ok9s0h5ie35nksf9...@4ax.com:
> Caine wrote:
>>http://tinyurl.com/3ug49
[Bandwidthectomy]
> And so what. If you believe in Christmas, be offended by the things
> that matter. Not upcoming movies, or bans on sparkly trees or pretty
> songs. Be offended by the things Jesus was offended by. Unless I
> misread his teachings, I'm pretty sure he'd be a lot more worked up
> about a single homeless person going hungry than some piece of fantasy
> entertainment."
This is what *really* bunches my underpantment. Christians - real true
Christians - should be more offended by the ongoing wars, torture,
killings, violations of human rights, selling of children into sexual
slavery, famine, hunger, rape, destruction of the earth, homelessness,
refugees, the greed of the rich, the rapine, the looting, the torment of
the helpless and downtrodden.
Getting pissed off because stores won't put up pix of, or recite the
approved words about, your purported saviour is just a disgrace and an
embarrassment.
None of this is about the religion. It's about flexing muscle and
intimidating people who believe differently. It's about power.
Disgusting.
sq
Jim Paradis
> This is what *really* bunches my underpantment. Christians - real true
> Christians - should be more offended by the ongoing wars, torture,
> killings, violations of human rights, selling of children into sexual
> slavery, famine, hunger, rape, destruction of the earth, homelessness,
> refugees, the greed of the rich, the rapine, the looting, the torment of
> the helpless and downtrodden.
>
> Getting pissed off because stores won't put up pix of, or recite the
> approved words about, your purported saviour is just a disgrace and an
> embarrassment.
There's a small comfort in knowing the cosmic dressing-down these
folks are going to get when they meet their Maker. If God is
smarter than all of humanity combined, He won't be fooled for a
nanosecond by these folks' pathetic attempts at beatific brown-nosing...
--jim
mroo philpott-smythe
> put up your mennorah and get some egg nog and join in the festivities
> and stop trying to be a pissant minority ruining it for the majority.
> Idiot liberal scum. Oh how I can't stand you liberal hypocrites.
Listen, idiot conservative scum, I'll put up my celebratory stuff if you'll
join in my celebrations without pissing and moaning about how minorities
are oppressing your white Xtian ass.
sq, "Aiming a hefty boot right at your privileged butt"
mroo philpott-smythe
news:pan.2004.12.22.04.54.35.399169@SPAM_ME_NOT.cox.net:
> On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 21:58:34 -0600, Karl Grüber wrote:
>> Michelle Martin <mik...@delete.yahoo.com> wrote ...
>>> Or a government that gives over a million dollars to a bible school
>>> that has 37 (count em') students, as seen here:
>>> (from Anchorage (Alaska) Daily News)
>>> JUNEAU -- Tucked away in spruce woods off the Kenai Spur Highway is a
>>> new Bible college with just 37 students. It's a little-known enclave
of
>>> evangelism, counseling and congressional spending.
[bandwidthEctomy]
>>> http://www.adn.com/front/story/5935677p-5842239c.html
> Obviously, the owners of this "college" include somebody who Knows
> Somebody.
In the Biblical sense, I'm sure.
sq
ghoul
1) Goober, I am not a conservative, they are as dumb as liberals, get it
yet?
2) When did I ever cry about being oppressed by anyone, what I said was
"Shut the fuck up and join in".
3) Why be so hateful about it, it is Christmas. Whether you buy into the
faithful or commercial version, it's a festive time and I know Hindus who
put up lights soley to join in on the fun, just as an example.
And since the ever hateful Mroo (If that is your real name) is so
enlightened, would you go observe a hindu or buddhist mass as I would just
to know what they do?
Are you flattered to be wished a happy divali? Do you know what it is?
Point is Monkey, if you want to be an atheist, you live in a country that
lets you do it. But there is no persecution to you and yours if those who
have faith publicly celebrate christmas. I see no need for atheistic folks
to stifle what others do for their own entertainment. It's simply the case
of a pointless minority forcing their view on a festive majority, not
unlike that deuschbag who took the pledge of allegiance to the supreme
court to force his views.
khan
> Point is Monkey, if you want to be an atheist, you live in a country that
> lets you do it. But there is no persecution to you and yours if those who
> have faith publicly celebrate christmas. I see no need for atheistic folks
> to stifle what others do for their own entertainment. It's simply the case
> of a pointless minority forcing their view on a festive majority, not
> unlike that deuschbag who took the pledge of allegiance to the supreme
> court to force his views.
Did the US gov't 'force its views' when it put that 'under god' crap
into the pledge of allegiance in the 1950s?