New Laws Protect Social Workers
Jill
~ Jill
"Neal Feldman" <silve...@home.net> wrote in message
news:3B97BB0E...@home.net...
>
>
> Jill wrote:
>
> > Hi!
> >
> > As you have noticed, I'm not anti-CPS or anything,
>
> I think that comes under the heading 'understatements of the millenium'...
9-}
>
> > but I think you've made a
> > really good point. Unless we are talking rat infested, cockraoch
breeding,
> > mold growing filth, I don't see why the kids should be removed.
>
> Thank you.
>
> > If CPS had a maid service, I would call them myself! I've been ill for
over
> > a week, my second pregnancy is taking a toll. I have an active toddler
who
> > just started walking, and my house, though not dirty, is cluttered and
messy
> > as Florida after a hurricane.
>
> Better desperately hope no Gestapo CPS agents visit... or not only would
they
> kidnap your toddler but also stand over you in the delivery room and
snatch the
> newborn infant right from the hands of the doctors!
>
> > I've read several of your past posts from other news groups and I think
you
> > are insightful, informed and intellegent. Not that my opinion of you
> > changes your life or anything! LOL
> >
> > Jill
> >
> > "bobb" <BOB...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> > news:9n80om$mch$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net...
> > > Consider that the money CPS is spending in legal fees, court costs,
> > > counslers, home visits, social workers and related staff... that
money
> > > would be better spent providing a maid service to clean the place
up...
> > and
> > > provide regular inspections by the maid service to see that it is
> > > maintained. It certainly does not require a high paid social worker
to
> > > evaluate the cleanliness of a house.
> > >
> > > bobb
> >
> > >I'm gonna repeat for those hard of hearing... CPS in their concern for
> > >'clean' houses should attact the problem... not remove the kids.
> > >bobb
>
> --
> =============================================================
> Home Page: http://members.home.net/silverstorm/
>
> We will never rest until Gestapo CPS is completely abolished!
>
>
Jill
I had a whole long response to your last post, but I've come to the
conclusion that it doesn't matter. You won't even consider that you might
not be 100% correct will you?
Listen, we definitely have to protect our families, just don't hurt anyone
else while you're doing it. CPS workers have families too, and our kids are
no more or less important than theirs.
~ Jill
"Neal Feldman" <silve...@home.net> wrote in message
news:3B97BDAA...@home.net...
>
>
> Jill wrote:
>
> > Neal,
> >
> > I respect your right to your opinions but I have a hard time believing
> > certain things you say because you call it "Gestapo CPS".
>
> Sorry, Jill, to hear that just because you dislike an accurate term you
will
> delusuionally dismiss anything said.
>
> I am by far not the first or only one to use that accurate term. They act
like
> Gestapo so it is entirely correct to describe them as such.
>
> Why don't you just dump the closedmindedness and look at the facts and you
will
> see I am entirely correct in what I say.
>
> > I don't take name callers seriously,
>
> Calling a bigot a bigot is not namecalling, it is accurate description.
Same
> with Gestapo CPS. Please show me a legitimate definition for namecalling
which
> includes legitimate and accurate description.
>
> > in my experience, it seems that they can't be objective.
>
> Then your experience is extremely limited.
>
> > CPS needs changes, definitely, but it isn't all bad,
>
> No, just 95+% bad... and each of those percentage points reflects hundreds
or
> thousands of innocent families, parents and children destroyed and abused
by
> this heinous monstrosity....
>
> Yeah, no reason to strongly oppose it or call for its eradication, eh
Jill?
> Perish the thought and pass the Mint Julip, if you please?
>
> >RETCH!<
>
> > and CPS workers are not all corrupt.
>
> Just most of them. Those who are not flee from those agencies at a high
rate of
> speed. These agencies are about the only ones with greater than 100%
annual
> turnover.
>
> Ever wonder why?
>
> Those who stick around are, for the most part, the most corrupt... but
there are
> a miniscule minority who are idealists who have deluded themselves that
they can
> 'reform from within'. Sooner or later they either give up in futility or
slit
> their own wrists.
>
> > Even if my children were taken, I would never use illegal force to get
them
> > back.
>
> Me? I would use whatever was necessary to get them back and to so
severely
> punish those who took them that no one would EVER be stupid enough screw
with my
> family again.
>
> They would be VERY lucky if I were unable to find some small amount of
weapons
> grade plutonium... for I know full well how to make quite destructive use
of it,
> and if they kidnapped my kids again I would have no compunctions at all of
using
> such means against the kidnappers. None at all.
>
> Someone needs to take a stand, and one which will not, cannot, be ignored.
>
> > This does not mean I don't love them,
>
> Certainly if given the situation that legally you will lose them forever
though
> you did nothing wrong, or illegally you might get them back and remain a
family,
> if you just like a little sheep to the slaughter choose only the legal
path when
> confronted by such clearly illegal manipulations of the system as to
create the
> scenario in the first place then in fact NO... you do not love your
children as
> much as I love mine... or the Christines theirs.
>
> > but I will not show them (the children) that using force is the answer.
>
> Why do you think it is ok when Gestapo CPS does so?
>
> If 'using force is not the answer' I ask you... how is your German or
Japanese
> language skills? For following your BS we would be speaking one or the
other
> right now in the US.
>
> If 'using force is not the answer' what is the purpose of all the billions
spent
> on our military and law enforcement, hmmmmmm Jill?
>
> You come across as extremely naive to say the least, Jill.
>
> > You talk about CPS using force to
> > remove children, why would anyone who disagrees with that method sink to
> > that level?
>
> Because sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.
>
> It is generally considered wrong to kill... but perfectly ok to do so in
self
> defense.
>
> Do you not comprehend family self defense against destructive assault by
Gestapo
> CPS?
>
> > "Neal Feldman" <silve...@home.net> wrote in message
> > news:3B92CE10...@home.net...
> > > No, Jill... it is people like that who prove me right... that the
general
> > > population is, to quote a phrase, 'mad as hell and not going to take
it
> > > anymore'. If you knew anything about history you would see the
blazing
> > signs of
> > > the collapse of a corrupt tyrany.
Greg Hanson
brought up the idea that CPS could pay for two months of
a Storage Locker. Apparently there IS a fund for such
helpful services, but CPS didn't want to make it available.
Since our case was clutter without* filth, a maid would
not be necessary. It's very frustrating that every time
people hear "clutter" they imagine filth, which is not true
in our case.
AdoptaDad
>From: "bobb" BOB...@ix.netcom.com
>Date: 9/6/01 10:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <9n80om$mch$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net>>> Jill wrote:
>>
>> > This made me so sick. Theose stupid people lost thier kids for good
>now.
>>
>> It is pretty clear they realized the game Gestapo CPS was playing and that
>no
>> matter what they did they would never have seen their kids in their own
>custody
>> again.
>>
>> They got back at those attacking them the only way they could. The only
>way
>> they were allowed, since in almost all cases all legal and reasonable
>avenues of
>> recourse against such attackers are blocked and barred.
>>
>> > All they had to do was make the house clean enough to live in.
>>
>> And the next million other demands of the Overlord Wannabes...
>>
>> > It's people like that who prove that CPS is a good thing.
>>
>> No, Jill... it is people like that who prove me right... that the general
>> population is, to quote a phrase, 'mad as hell and not going to take it
>> anymore'. If you knew anything about history you would see the blazing
>signs of
>> the collapse of a corrupt tyrany.
>
>power, and authority... they are unable to find alternatives for even the
>cluttered, diry house, syndrome... except take the kids away. In these
>matters, CPS is NOT a good thing.
>
>Consider that the money CPS is spending in legal fees, court costs,
>counslers, home visits, social workers and related staff... that money
>would be better spent providing a maid service to clean the place up... and
>provide regular inspections by the maid service to see that it is
>maintained.
<snip>
OMG, you really DO want CPS to clean your house ! ! ! ROFLMAO.
Dad
AdoptaDad
>From: "bobb" BOB...@ix.netcom.com
>Date: 9/6/01 10:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <9n8008$40p$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net>
>
<snip>
>
>> Even rich people's houses have "clutter" in some rooms.
>>
>>
>I'm gonna repeat for those hard of hearing... CPS in their concern for
>'clean' houses should attact the problem... not remove the kids.
>
>bobb
You want CPS to clean your house?
Dad
Ric Werme
>If CPS had a maid service, I would call them myself! I've been ill for over
>a week, my second pregnancy is taking a toll. I have an active toddler who
>just started walking, and my house, though not dirty, is cluttered and messy
>as Florida after a hurricane.
If CPS knocks at the door, don't let them in without a serach warrant.
Seriously.
-Ric
--
Ric Werme | we...@nospam.mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/werme | ^^^^^^^ delete
Greg Hanson
> Listen, we definitely have to protect our families, just don't hurt anyone
> else while you're doing it. CPS workers have families too, and our kids
are
> no more or less important than theirs.
they were comforted that it was so good for the families of the
camp commanders.
bobb
"AdoptaDad" <adop...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010906204959...@mb-co.aol.com...
LOL.... and that's an excellent idea... demostrate how it should be done...
but I'm not sure they'd be competent!!! :-)
bobb
bobb
"Jill" <jk...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:tpf64up...@corp.supernews.com...
> Hi!
>
> As you have noticed, I'm not anti-CPS or anything, but I think you've made
a
> really good point. Unless we are talking rat infested, cockraoch
breeding,
> mold growing filth, I don't see why the kids should be removed.
>
over
> a week, my second pregnancy is taking a toll. I have an active toddler
who
> just started walking, and my house, though not dirty, is cluttered and
messy
> as Florida after a hurricane.
>
you
> are insightful, informed and intellegent. Not that my opinion of you
> changes your life or anything! LOL
>
> Jill
>
>
> "bobb" <BOB...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:9n80om$mch$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net...
> > counslers, home visits, social workers and related staff... that money
> > would be better spent providing a maid service to clean the place up...
> and
> > provide regular inspections by the maid service to see that it is
> > evaluate the cleanliness of a house.
> >
> > bobb
>
> >'clean' houses should attact the problem... not remove the kids.
> >bobb
>
>
Gee....you took my breath away... I don't know what to say... <gasping for
air> but thanks....
Bobb
free_kaler
Heck bobb, I thought that was what the letter's c-p-s stood for. 'C'lean,
'P'olish and 'S'pitshine.
>
>bobb
>
>
"..and that you may never experience the
humility that the power of the American Government
has reduced me to, is the wish of him, who, in his
native forests, was once as proud and bold as yourself."
Black Hawk, 1833
AdoptaDad
Date: 9/6/01 9:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <bjVl7.3630$bl4.4...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>
"Jill" <jk...@charter.net> writes:
>If CPS had a maid service, I would call them myself! I've been ill for over
>a week, my second pregnancy is taking a toll. I have an active toddler who
>just started walking, and my house, though not dirty, is cluttered and messy
>as Florida after a hurricane.
If CPS knocks at the door, don't let them in without a serach warrant.
Seriously.
-Ric
What if they're holding a Hoover and cleaning supplies?
Dad
Neal Feldman
Let me give you a basic primer on newsgroup posts... they are PUBLIC posts...
meaning once made ANYONE can read them and ANYONE can respond to them.
If you want to send ONLY to Bobb then you needed to use email, not a newsgroup
post.
Hope this clears that up.
Neal Feldman
Jill wrote:
> Neal,
>
> I had a whole long response to your last post, but I've come to the
> conclusion that it doesn't matter. You won't even consider that you might
> not be 100% correct will you?
My position in this has been tempered through debate for quite some time. I
know the facts proven what I say as correct. I am always willing to look at
evidence and facts which might being into question my position and if they
disprove my position I modify my position accordingly.
This current position has maintained for a couple years now... nothing credible
or legitimate has been presented to significantly discredit or disprove it. And
many who have originally disagreed with it have looked into the facts and come
back admitting they were wrong and I was right on the matter.
So I will turn your own question back on you, Jill....
You won't even consider that you might not be 100% correct will you?
> Listen, we definitely have to protect our families, just don't hurt anyone
> else while you're doing it.
If they are attacking me, my kids or my family then they have chosen to forfeit
any protections or concerns I might have over their wellbeing... just like
someone who pulls a knife on me in an alley... normally I would walk by them and
leave them alone, but if they are going to attack me with a knife I will do my
able best to end their corporeal existance on this mortal coil, preferrably by
inserting their own knife into their own eye. They chose to give up any right
to any other outcome.
> CPS workers have families too, and our kids are no more or less important than
> theirs.
Sorry, but if they choose to attack innocent families then they deserve anything
and everything they get. Should we forgive, for example, Slobodan Milosevic
because he might have a wife and kids? Horse puckey! I hope the butcher of
Bosnia roasts... and if he has kids I hope they are made to watch so they learn
from their father's errors.
Neal Feldman
Hey, they had to make a living, even if it killed thousands or millions, eh?
Gotta put food on the table for all the lovely Hitler Youth, right?
Greg Hanson wrote:
--
Jill
> OMG, you really DO want CPS to clean your house ! ! ! ROFLMAO.
>
> Dad
Anyone that would like to come clean my house is welcome! LOL
~ Jill
Jill
<snip>
So I will turn your own question back on you, Jill....
>
> You won't even consider that you might not be 100% correct will you?
Oh I know I'm not 100% correct. I don't know everything, but I don't think
you do either. But like I said before, I do know we are not going to agree
in our opinions.
> > Listen, we definitely have to protect our families, just don't hurt
anyone
> > else while you're doing it.
>
> If they are attacking me, my kids or my family then they have chosen to
forfeit
> any protections or concerns I might have over their wellbeing... just like
> someone who pulls a knife on me in an alley... normally I would walk by
them and
> leave them alone, but if they are going to attack me with a knife I will
do my
> able best to end their corporeal existance on this mortal coil,
preferrably by
> inserting their own knife into their own eye. They chose to give up any
right
> to any other outcome.
I just can't be that cold.
So, if retaliation is always okay: the CPS takes the kid(s), parent follows
them and holds a gun to the head of a CPS worker, CPS worker has kids too
that they need to be alive to care for SO is now justified in shooting first
parent. Survival of the fittest (fastest) then?
I want to make sure I understand what you are saying.
Jill
you responded. :-) I tired to send it to him, but his mail doesn't work.
~ Jill
"Neal Feldman" <silve...@home.net> wrote in message
news:3B98A6EC...@home.net...
bobb
"free_kaler" <free_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:HZYl7.7561$4z.3...@www.newsranger.com...
> In article <9n9l8j$in0$2...@slb5.atl.mindspring.net>, bobb says...
> >
> >
> >"AdoptaDad" <adop...@aol.com> wrote in message
> >news:20010906204959...@mb-co.aol.com...
> >> >Subject: Re: We cleaned up - did no good - they have attitude
> >> >From: "bobb" BOB...@ix.netcom.com
> >> >Date: 9/6/01 10:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time
> >> >Message-id: <9n8008$40p$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net>
> >> >
> >> <snip>
> >> >
> >> >> Even rich people's houses have "clutter" in some rooms.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >I'm gonna repeat for those hard of hearing... CPS in their concern
for
> >> >'clean' houses should attact the problem... not remove the kids.
> >> >
> >> >bobb
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> You want CPS to clean your house?
> >>
> >> Dad
> >
> >LOL.... and that's an excellent idea... demostrate how it should be
done...
> >but I'm not sure they'd be competent!!! :-)
>
> Heck bobb, I thought that was what the letter's c-p-s stood for. 'C'lean,
> 'P'olish and 'S'pitshine.
> >
> >bobb
LOL ... I gotta remember that!
bobb
... and wearing aprons, of course!
bobb
Gee.. me too. I had a cleaning lady once... but darn it... I always cleaned
the house before she got here... so she didn't see it so messy. Well...
that defeated the purpose...
bobb
their kids to CPS understands immediately all the ramifications. They also
have a large sense of trust... that their kids will be ok.. and it is only
temporary. Parents are awfully intimidated... not unlike when a cop comes
to the door. The primal response is to protect one's family... at all
costs... even from the state.
I would assume, probably incorrectly, that CPS should understand before
they attempt to remove kids from their home there may be a threat of danger.
If not... they're more stupid than I give them credit for.
So... pass more laws to cover up, or make up, for their ignorance.. and
stupidity. But.. in doing so... they acheive only that much more power and
control. That is precisely how we find ourselves with a failing CPS
system.
Bobb
Greg Hanson
> Anyone that would like to come clean my house is welcome! LOL
to vacuum looking for a marijuana seed to charge YOU with?
Jill
have.
~ Jill
"Greg Hanson" <gre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:pH6m7.1866$P8.7...@news1.elmhst1.il.home.com...
Greg Hanson
However, when CPS removes children without
following the US Constitution, that makes them
kidnappers. I doubt we could invoke the
"Lindberg Law", but how much force is allowable
to stop a kidnapping?
If they don't follow the highest societal rules,
Our "Bill of Rights", What rights do they forfeit?
If a person tries to "snatch" a baby from an animal
they had better expect repercussions. We are
supposed to be better than that, because of our
higher level of functioning. Unfortunately for CPS,
that same higher functioning makes us aware that
CPS is committing an atrocity upon our families.
So instead of our higher functioning overcoming
our instinct, it simply reinforces our instinct that
was right in the first place.
Any person that would ALLOW their child to be
taken away in violation of the US Constitution,
could be arguably "failing to protect" in CPS terms.
Jill, Do you in fact have any children?
If some wolves were after them, would you
cooperate?
Greg Hanson
Jill
~ Jill
"Greg Hanson" <gre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a58m7.1986$P8.7...@news1.elmhst1.il.home.com...
Jill
> Jill, Do you in fact have any children?
> If some wolves were after them, would you
> cooperate?
>
A toddler, and one on the way. If someone came with a warrent and said, we
are here to investigate complaint XYZ (in detail) I would not be happy, but
I'd help them out so I could resolve the problem. I'd invite them in and
give them a cup of coffee.
I do understand the burning feeling of rage a parent gets when thier child
is in danger. Minor example: A little neighbor girl pushed my son over and
hit him, I wanted to throw her across the yard, but I didn't. She is just a
child.
I know if my son was in physcial danger, like a thief in the house, I could
kill him with my bare hands, working on just rage. But I wouldn't. I'd
take out his kneecap and break his arm. It's bad enough that my boy might
see me hurt someone, but to kill someone? I don't want my children to have
a murderer (even in self defense) for a parent.
It's really easy for me to have the opinion I do. Mine is the kind of
family that CPS would ask to adopt someone else's child. At one point, we
considered doing so. My plan was to have one biological child, and one
adopted child. My fate was different than I had planned. <surprise baby!>
I know that kids can be taken for stupid reasons. Reading people's stories
on here showed me that it happens more often than I ever thought. That is
why I read here, to learn stuff. My big concern is parents going rabid. I
simply don't understand violence against a CPS worker. It will only make
things worse. I understand why they felt compelled to do it, but I wish
they could stay rationional enough not to.
~ Jill
Neal Feldman
Jill wrote:
> "Neal Feldman" <silve...@home.net> wrote in message
> news:3B98A823...@home.net...
> <snip>
> So I will turn your own question back on you, Jill....
> >
> > You won't even consider that you might not be 100% correct will you?
>
> Oh I know I'm not 100% correct. I don't know everything, but I don't think
> you do either.
I know enough about what I am talking about to know it has been proven to be
correct. I do not claim to know everything, never have.
But when no one has been able to prove my current position wrong in any
significant way one gets a pretty strong confidence regarding it.
> But like I said before, I do know we are not going to agree in our opinions.
Nor do I demand we do so.
But if I know the facts show you are wrong I will say so.
> > > Listen, we definitely have to protect our families, just don't hurt
> anyone
> > > else while you're doing it.
> >
> > If they are attacking me, my kids or my family then they have chosen to
> forfeit
> > any protections or concerns I might have over their wellbeing... just like
> > someone who pulls a knife on me in an alley... normally I would walk by
> them and
> > leave them alone, but if they are going to attack me with a knife I will
> do my
> > able best to end their corporeal existance on this mortal coil,
> preferrably by
> > inserting their own knife into their own eye. They chose to give up any
> right
> > to any other outcome.
>
> I just can't be that cold.
Well, then likely you would be even colder, lying dead in the alley. When it is
you or them you need to choose you. Period.
> So, if retaliation is always okay:
Who said retaliation? Justice. Getting back the kids which should never have
been taken in the first place.
> the CPS takes the kid(s), parent follows
> them and holds a gun to the head of a CPS worker, CPS worker has kids too
> that they need to be alive to care for SO is now justified in shooting first
> parent. Survival of the fittest (fastest) then?
So be it. However in the scenario the parent has the advantage... if they plan
things. The Gestapo CPS agent does not necessarily know what is coming.
> I want to make sure I understand what you are saying.
You pretty much have it... if the parent draws down on the worker and the worker
is armed, of course the worker is entirely within his or her rights to defend
themselves.
When have I said otherwise?
I merely pointed out how laughable a concept it is to think passing a law will
protect them.
<chuckle>
Neal Feldman
Neal Feldman
Jill wrote:
> "Greg Hanson" <gre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:Oi7m7.1925$P8.7...@news1.elmhst1.il.home.com...
> > Jill, Do you in fact have any children?
> > If some wolves were after them, would you
> > cooperate?
> >
>
> A toddler, and one on the way. If someone came with a warrent and said, we
> are here to investigate complaint XYZ (in detail) I would not be happy, but
> I'd help them out so I could resolve the problem. I'd invite them in and
> give them a cup of coffee.
Decisions you would likely regret the rest of your life. You just gave up your
fourth and likely other amendment rights.
> I do understand the burning feeling of rage a parent gets when thier child
> is in danger. Minor example: A little neighbor girl pushed my son over and
> hit him, I wanted to throw her across the yard, but I didn't. She is just a
> child.
And Gestapo CPS are not children... they are adults and should be treated as
such.
> I know if my son was in physcial danger, like a thief in the house, I could
> kill him with my bare hands, working on just rage. But I wouldn't.
And if by not doing so your child is harmed or killed, then what?
> I'd take out his kneecap and break his arm. It's bad enough that my boy might
>
> see me hurt someone, but to kill someone? I don't want my children to have
> a murderer (even in self defense) for a parent.
If it is in self defense against an intruder or kidnapper it is not murder in
any state of the union. So you would not be a murderer... you would be a
defender.
> It's really easy for me to have the opinion I do.
Yeah, I agree... you are making a great many assumptions which may well change
if you are really in that position.
> Mine is the kind of family that CPS would ask to adopt someone else's child.
ROTFLU!
Since foster care is 8-10 times the risk of real families of abuse, neglect or
death, I find this hardly a ringing endorsement for you.
<chuckle>
And you forget that in this scenario they are not looking at you as a placement
site, but as a source of two kids they can use to squeeze all the federal
dollars and personal power trips they can out of before they discard them and
you.
And simply BEING accused puts you, even if unfounded, in the registry
database... lots of luck getting placements.
> I know that kids can be taken for stupid reasons. Reading people's stories
> on here showed me that it happens more often than I ever thought.
But that is still ok with you and nothing should be done about all these
kidnappings, huh Jill? Is that your position? If you feel something should be
done, then specifcially WHAT>?
Do not give vague references to 'reforming the system' because the Oregon
experience circa 1991-present has clearly and conclusively proven what a
timewasting farce THAT concept is!
> That is why I read here, to learn stuff. My big concern is parents going
> rabid.
Rabid? What is rabid? When they see there is no LEGAL way left to get back
their children which should never have been taken in the first place, thereby
leaving them only two choices... accept the absolutely unacceptable or resort to
means OTHER than legal one (since those have all been blocked and barred).
Granted most people are sheep... they will just go along with it no matter the
crimes against their families. Some even go so far as licking the boots of
those who destroyed their family accepting the blame that only belongs to
Gestapo CPS because they have been so psychologically broken.
But when you so radically honk off millions of people, you are going to find a
few wolves in amongst your sheep... and you likely are going to lose a bit more
than a hand.
> I simply don't understand violence against a CPS worker.
You do not understand violence against a kidnapper of your children? What kind
of parent ARE YOU?
> It will only make things worse.
In the Christine's case how could it be worse? Their kids kidnapping was
clearly going to be made permanent. What did they have to lose? Without their
kids their freedom means nothing. Any new kids would just be kidnapped too, as
proven already.
This was the only way they had any hope of being reunited... and had Brian not
been stopped or had the foresight to have good alternate identities created
ahead of time they would still all be free.
They gambled.. they seem to have lost. But they will inspire others to not just
be sheep as the kidnappers of Big Nanny herd up their children for sale.
> I understand why they felt compelled to do it, but I wish
> they could stay rationional enough not to.
Ah, yes... like we should have 'stayed rational enough' to not stand in the way
of Nazi Germany or Emperor Hirohito, eh?
How is your Japanese and German by the way?
Jill
the way
> of Nazi Germany or Emperor Hirohito, eh?
>
My theory on WW2 (and Saddam too) is that we need(ed) to send a woman in
there to kill him. We are more sneaky than men. I guess I do have a
violent streak!
With further thought, I think I would kill someone who threatened my son,
(and hope he was not there to see it!) but I still can't see harming a CPS
worker. I've decided I don't know enough to have a definite opinion.
I've been reading Case Histories at http://www.syc.org and I'm really pissed
off. Some of the links are not working though. :-( I'm still
reading.......
Do you know where I can find laws about this state-by-state?
~ Jill
Greg Hanson
attack from CPS and the child has been gone
for 7 months now. It's a kind of hell that
even Dante could not have imagined.
Their case stinks, and we have told them
we intend to sue, so CPS has turned all of
the services into more Inquisition.
The "therapy" and Psychological Evaluation
are almost purely set up to be Witch Hunt.
I think there would be something wrong if we
DIDN'T have some "situational depression"
under the circumstances.
Neal Feldman
Jill wrote:
> > Ah, yes... like we should have 'stayed rational enough' to not stand in
> the way
> > of Nazi Germany or Emperor Hirohito, eh?
> >
>
> My theory on WW2 (and Saddam too) is that we need(ed) to send a woman in
> there to kill him. We are more sneaky than men. I guess I do have a
> violent streak!
Apparently so. So have you finally admitted the truth about yourself or have we
just converted you to reality and reason?
> With further thought, I think I would kill someone who threatened my son,
> (and hope he was not there to see it!) but I still can't see harming a CPS
> worker.
Why not, since they qualify? Clearly and conclusively proven.
> I've decided I don't know enough to have a definite opinion.
Then I can only suggest you learn. Here is a starting point... with many links
to follow as well. Read them all... then return and report if you wish.
http://members.home.net/silverstorm/cps.htm
> I've been reading Case Histories at http://www.syc.org and I'm really pissed
> off. Some of the links are not working though. :-( I'm still
> reading.......
That is one of my links/
Try reading http://www.avoiceforchildren.com which is another one of my links on
my page... Pam and Will Gaston's story... I suggest you have a lot of antacid
handy.
> Do you know where I can find laws about this state-by-state?
>
> ~ Jill
Oregon's OAR (Oregon Administrative Rules) and ORS (Oregon Revised Statutes) as
well as SCF (Gestapo CPS) Policy is online... not that they bother to follow the
rules or laws or policies if it gets in the way of their childstealing agenda.
free_kaler
says...
"..and that you may never experience the
Greg Hanson
the US DHHS Caseworker Manual that is the model for every
state's CPS manual. For a really good hoot, read the parts
about the duality of CPS workers,
investigative vs. "helping relationship".
Another good laugh is the part about screening out people
who bear grudges or stand to gain custody from the phoned
in report.
Then there's the part about being accepting about culture
or individuality.
I once spent about three hours wading through all kinds of
"agency speak" on the DHHS site, standard complex
gibberish used gratuitously to obfuscate all meaning.
Reading through it it is like watching a movie in
a foreign language. Every once in awhile there is
something that makes sense.
Blah BlahBlah, mandated,
Blah Blah, funding,
BlahBlah, we accept no responsibility,
It's like watching news on the International Channel.
Jill, My family cooperated for 2 weeks because like you, we
operated "in good faith", believing that innocense would prevail.
At the two week mark, the betrayal became obvious and Lisa,
not me, went to the computer and typed "Fight CPS" into the
internet search engine. Then reality began to set in.
I typed in Witch Hunt and the number of hits about CPS
was astounding. We went through several more violations
of our family and basic rights. Girl underwent sex abuse exam
based purely on outright paper perjury by DHS.
Documents full of errors fed other documents with new errors
and usually all of the old errors. Information in paperwork came
mostly from the Prozac grandma, even things they should have
trusted us to answer truthfully. Truth seems to be pointless,
gossip and pathological lies from the antagonist grandma are
taken as truth, even when the pieces don't fit together.
My favorite caselaw for you to read is Wallis v Escondido,
an institutionalized mental patient made the accusations,
girls underwent sex abuse exams for no reason, and
without allowing mother to hold hands during exam, etc.
If you read what the judges say, you realize just how
badly CPS really does violate rules of society like
the Constitution and Bill of Rights.
When they show up and you think you should
cooperate, it is too late. You need to realize how
CPS caseworkers routinely lie. They lie about their legal
right to invade your home, they lie about having warrants
when they don't have a judges signature, etc...
Judge Rebecca Pallmeyer in Illinois declared the entire
Illinois Child Protection system to be Unconstitutional.
She complained of caseworkers being "selective"
in reporting only negatives and never items that would
vindicate families. Dupuy case.
Our family's naivety and trust of authorities was a mistake.
Our "good faith" cooperation was met with Perjury and Lies.
Too many people think it only happens to "those people".
dan
Hello Jill,
Welcome to the group.
This link will get you to every state and their CPS Program Manual (if
the make it available to the public) which is supposed to be CPS'
bible.
In NY I think they use it as a doorstop!
http://www.the-facts.com/cps.htm (everybody should bookmark this)
You can thank,
Linda Martin at http://www.geocities.com/fightcpsandwin/
for posting this link on her first class website.
I would use Linda's site as a starting point to researching anything
you might want to know about CPS.
Adios, Dan
dan
> "Greg Hanson" <gre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:Oi7m7.1925$P8.7...@news1.elmhst1.il.home.com...
> > Jill, Do you in fact have any children?
> > If some wolves were after them, would you
> > cooperate?
> >
>
> A toddler, and one on the way.
Congratulations!
> If someone came with a warrent and said, we are here to investigate complaint > XYZ (in detail) I would not be happy, but I'd help them out so I could
> resolve the problem.
> I'd invite them in and give them a cup of coffee.
If this is how you would like to respond it might not be a bad idea.
> I do understand the burning feeling of rage a parent gets when thier child
> is in danger. Minor example: A little neighbor girl pushed my son over and
> hit him, I wanted to throw her across the yard, but I didn't. She is just a
> child.
> I know if my son was in physcial danger, like a thief in the house, I could
> kill him with my bare hands, working on just rage. But I wouldn't. I'd
> take out his kneecap and break his arm. It's bad enough that my boy might
> see me hurt someone, but to kill someone? I don't want my children to have
> a murderer (even in self defense) for a parent.
You must have been one tough date.
Do your old boyfriends still limp? (Levity)
> It's really easy for me to have the opinion I do. Mine is the kind of
> family that CPS would ask to adopt someone else's child. At one point, we
> considered doing so. My plan was to have one biological child, and one
> adopted child. My fate was different than I had planned. <surprise baby!>
God rewarded you twice.
> I know that kids can be taken for stupid reasons. Reading people's stories
> on here showed me that it happens more often than I ever thought. That is
> why I read here, to learn stuff. My big concern is parents going rabid. I
> simply don't understand violence against a CPS worker. It will only make
> things worse. I understand why they felt compelled to do it, but I wish
> they could stay rational enough not to.
>
> ~ Jill
Hello Jill,
You have just become one of my best friends on this NG.
Please feel free to post ALL your thoughts and ideas on staying
rational and avoiding violence in regards to CPS people. And then
DUCK!
Adios, Dan Sullivan from Noo Yawk
Jill
understand where you're coming from now. Has your MIL always been so weird?
Your poor little girl. What is your plan for when she comes home? Do you
get to see her now at all?
~ Jill
"Greg Hanson" <gre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:FNim7.2726$P8.11...@news1.elmhst1.il.home.com...
Neal Feldman
CPS follows their own rules only when they want to, ignoring them also
when they want to, and how they only look at the parents through a
negative anti-parent lens, willing to believe anything said against
parents but nothing said in favor of them, regardless of common sense,
truth, fact, evidence, etc.
They are an ideological agenda driven machine... their 'protect
children' mantra is a lie which is only the grease for their machine...
nothing more.
Greg Hanson wrote:
--
Neal Feldman
dan wrote:
Yeah, Delusional Dan... especially since any talk of violence or force when dealing with Gestapo CPS is when it is abundantly clear you are innocent, they
don't care, they are clearly seeking to permanently steal your children and destroy you and your family and your kids, and all legal recourses and remedies
have been blocked and barred, leaving the only options of rolling over and allowing this corrupt organization to continue and complete their attack on you
or resorting, unfortunately, to other avenues and alternatives in the defense of your family.
In fact my position is far more rational than your own Gestapo CPS apologist one, Delusional Dan.
You are far too delusional and 'rabid' to notice, however.
Clearly and conclusively proven by your posts here and the responses to them and your wholly adolescent (at best) ad hominem and your continued use of
logical fallacies and flawed critical thinking...
No wonder you were kicked out of VOCAL. I doubt they appreciated your Gestapo CPS apologist attitudes any more than I do.
<chuckle>
Neal Feldman
bobb wrote:
My mother was like that... I never understood it.
Also there was the living room of my home... we kids were not allowed to even
set foot in it... it was like a museum. We had the rest of the house, and lived
in our rooms and the family room and kitchen... the dining room was only
accessible during big dinners etc...
It was strange... I vowed that in my home all common areas would be accessible
to my kids unless they proved there was a reason to do otherwise.
Neal Feldman
Jill wrote:
--
Greg Hanson
I have had no visits whatsoever for 7 months.
Since technically I have no legal standing, they can really* walk
all over me. I am a would-be step dad, called Daddy-O.
The legal term is "paramour" and the veiled CPS attitude is that
I am not supposed to function as a parent.
The bio dad is over 30, living with and dependent on his parents.
He works only occasionally as a local "roadie" and rides his
bicycle to the bar every day even though he's in alcohol treatment.
(CPS reported him incorrectly as part-time vs. "occasional".)
Former drug addict and until this had almost NO contact with
the girl. CPS has just about pushed visits upon him.
(Probably at recommendation of nutty grandma.)
We have asserted over and over that WE define our
family, not DHS/CPS. (The field of Social Work, by the way,
supports a broader definition of family that includes more
variations on the modern non-nuclear family, like ours.)
My 3 years of active involvement in the girls life have been
misquoted over and over in the CPS paperwork as 1 year.
(They got this from the Prozac grandma, not us!)
Her successes in school due to my tutoring and practice
have been ignored in CPS paperwork.
They tried to use the girls school record for another
complaint, but when they found she was performing
at a 5th grade level at the end of 1st grade, they
completely left out her school record. They do NOT
report any positive aspects.
Our involvement in YMCA Indian Princesses was
abruptly cut off by the situation. It's a father-daughter
thing. We had done one full year with me as Chief
of a new "tribe" of 7 dads and 7 daughters.
CPS never mentioned this in their paperwork. They do
NOT report any positive aspects.
My only access to CPS paperwork is through Lisa and
might be technically illegal, even though I was the one
primarily blamed for the evil deeds. Sex abuse exam
based on DHS perjury about my history.
They have tried the classical move of trying to drive
Lisa and I apart, as a sort of ransom.
The number of lies and incorrect "factoids" presented
is so huge that it will be hard to correct it all.
I'll say it again, Jill, We started out operating
"in good faith", thinking that since we were innocent
that we would prevail. This was a grave error.
Please read up on what to do when they first knock
on your door. Please read up on Cheryl's experience
at the hospital recently, with blatant and terrible false
reporting by an ER nurse. Rick and Cheryl both have
pretty accurate "tricks of the trade" sheets that DO
describe many of the horrible rotten ways that
CPS workers violate laws, rules, and common decency.
Fern5827
>CPS has turned all of
>> the services into more Inquisition.
>> The "therapy" and Psychological Evaluation
>> are almost purely set up to be Witch Hunt.
Psych evals--you need to request raw data, not interpretive reportage.
>Subject: Re: New Laws Protect Social Workers
>From: "Jill" jk...@charter.net
>Date: 9/8/01 10:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <tpk9c9p...@corp.supernews.com>
Greg Hanson
When we confronted relatives about some of the stalking
like inappropriate behavior the summer before this, they
each separately said to Lisa "Well, you know* how she is."
She's been on Prozac for 8 years through her General
Practitioner, and Prozac is commonly a short term fix.
We are now seeking to get her seriously checked out
by a psychologist and a psychiatrist. That long on a
temporary fix is not good, and Prozac can be
dangerous when people don't stay on it reliably.
I strongly suspect that her stroke and vascular trouble
have added to her mental problem. People can have
what is called "vascular dementia" from problems with
blood flow to the brain.
She worked in a nursing home years ago and dreads
ending up in one. She probably also knows that with
her incontinence (wears depends), Type 2 diabetes,
Prozac and vascular problems, she belongs in one.
(CPS ignored all of these medical problems)
She has expressed her impending death to the child
in a way that is not mentally healthy, repeatedly.
If, and I say IF the girl ever comes home, we would
resume our tutoring and try to get her into some
advanced programs in school. It's actually many of
the simple day to day learning experiences that I miss
the most. I miss my little future astronaut. Of course,
we would celebrate as a family.
dan
neal wrote,
> Yeah, Delusional Dan... especially since any talk of violence or force when dealing with Gestapo CPS is when it is abundantly clear you are innocent, they
> don't care, they are clearly seeking to permanently steal your children and destroy you and your family and your kids, and all legal recourses and remedies
> have been blocked and barred, leaving the only options of rolling over and allowing this corrupt organization to continue and complete their attack on you
> or resorting, unfortunately, to other avenues and alternatives in the defense of your family.
Jill did you get this?
> In fact my position is far more rational than your own Gestapo CPS apologist one, Delusional Dan.
How 'bout this one?
I have been fighting CPS since 1987 and winning by staying calm and
learning how to get them to reverse their bad decisions. Personally I
have reversed all (5) of my own and quite a few from other people.
neal obviously is of the attitude that violence and even death is the
right and only way to deal with CPS people. Calling me a Gestapo CPS
apologist is supposed to anger me and destroy my credibility on this
Newsgroup by claiming I'm from the other side.
> You are far too delusional and 'rabid' to notice, however.
?
> Clearly and conclusively proven by your posts here and the responses to them and your wholly adolescent (at best) ad hominem and your continued use of
> logical fallacies and flawed critical thinking...
All I did was agree that the way you wanted to act if CPS knocked at
your door may be a good idea. It always worked for me. neal would
rather you shoot them on sight, "Fill them full of lead."
> No wonder you were kicked out of VOCAL. I doubt they appreciated your Gestapo CPS apologist attitudes any more than I do.
More of neal's false claims. He likes to chuckle too.
> <chuckle>
See.
Thanks for your post neal!
Adios, Dan
Ric Werme
>> Do you know where I can find laws about this state-by-state?
>This link will get you to every state and their CPS Program Manual (if
>the make it available to the public) which is supposed to be CPS'
>bible.
>http://www.the-facts.com/cps.htm (everybody should bookmark this)
This, at least as far as NH goes, has the least interesting information.
However, NH's DHHS has a pretty paltry WWW site. My wife has the
DCYF (Div. of Children, Youth & Families) manual, one telling excerpt is
at http://people.ne.mediaone.net/werme/law/cnlbook.html and discusses:
It would also be quite helpful if the supervisor could arrange to
meet with all of the district judges in the area as a group. ...
These meetings could also be used to advise the judges of any
expansions or additions to services or resources. The various
meetings recommended will help substantially to ease the burdens on
the Division and to ensure the Court's fullest cooperation.
While lawmakers and most citizens are aware of the central registry
of founded child abusers (many of whom are not abusers), few law makers
were aware of the "NH Bridges" data base. Pages from it's training manual
were the first CPS pages our site hosted. One interesting thing about
the manual are its case histories showing how if a spouse denies the other's
alleged involvment, that spouse is in denial and can be charged with
"failure to protect." While there are procedures for getting off the
central registry, there are none for getting out of NH Bridges.
See http://people.ne.mediaone.net/werme/nhbridges/
-Ric
--
Ric Werme | we...@nospam.mediaone.net
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/werme | ^^^^^^^ delete
bobb
>
>
> bobb wrote:
>
> > "Jill" <jk...@charter.net> wrote in message
> > news:tphmr26...@corp.supernews.com...
> > >
> > > "AdoptaDad" <adop...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > > news:20010906205238...@mb-co.aol.com...
> > > > OMG, you really DO want CPS to clean your house ! ! ! ROFLMAO.
> > > >
> > > > Dad
> > >
> > > Anyone that would like to come clean my house is welcome! LOL
> > >
> > > ~ Jill
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Gee.. me too. I had a cleaning lady once... but darn it... I always
cleaned
> > the house before she got here... so she didn't see it so messy. Well...
> > that defeated the purpose...
>
> My mother was like that... I never understood it.
>
> Also there was the living room of my home... we kids were not allowed to
even
> set foot in it... it was like a museum. We had the rest of the house, and
lived
> in our rooms and the family room and kitchen... the dining room was only
> accessible during big dinners etc...
>
> It was strange... I vowed that in my home all common areas would be
accessible
> to my kids unless they proved there was a reason to do otherwise.
>
> --
Yeh... we had the same thing... the living room was for company only... but
the family was large enough we had to use the dining room.
But... dad used to put seat cover over the seat covers, too. And we had cars
with bumper guards and even had bumper guards. Out of all that, I think
I've learn to take better care of stuff that I have.
But ya also gotta know... my present living room and dining room is
unfurnished. I have two family rooms (don't need a living room) and the
eating area is plenly large... no need for a dining room. If I built over
again... those are two rooms I would do without...
Bobb
Greg Hanson
> central registry, there are none for getting out of NH Bridges.
this sort of secret database that's probably illegal.
I noticed in the Iowa Assessment manual some
references to a computer system, but assumed
that it was only an internal record keeping network.
Now I think it was a counterpart to NH Bridges.
Ron
sort, or have one in the planning. You will also find that it is not
illegal and is in fact supported by federal laws. I don't have that
reference right at hand, but I'll get it for you Greg.
Ron
Greg Hanson
Ron
Ron
"Greg Hanson" <gre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xjln7.10922$P8.31...@news1.elmhst1.il.home.com...
Greg Hanson
orders expungement and CPS keep a concealed
second record, that should be contempt of court.
Shows evil contemptuous nature of CPS that they
feel justified in playing this "shell game" with a
second shadowy computer record, and not
honoring court order to expunge.
Aren't you the one who pointed and accused people
of being conspiracy nuts?
If the states are keeping "shadow" records,
the conspiracy theorists are right.
Ron
> So, Ron, you don't get the point that when a judge
> orders expungement and CPS keep a concealed
> second record, that should be contempt of court.
>
Did the judge specifically order that the CPS records "expunge" something?
Did he have the authority to do so? Since you don't give a specific case
you are citing then we cant really have much of an answer can we, 'eh dude?
> Shows evil contemptuous nature of CPS that they
> feel justified in playing this "shell game" with a
> second shadowy computer record, and not
> honoring court order to expunge.
>
> Aren't you the one who pointed and accused people
> of being conspiracy nuts?
>
Why yes I am. I call them as I see them, and since you fall into that
category then you get the "handle".
Ron
Greg Hanson
> Did he have the authority to do so? Since you don't give a specific case
> you are citing then we cant really have much of an answer can we, 'eh
dude?
The judge that made the ruling might not have had authority.
DontTakeOurKids.com
Advocates say revised rules don't go far enough to protect agency employees
By Associated Press
LANSING -- Lisa Putman was beaten, bound, gagged and tossed into a
bathtub to die -- all because she was a state social worker.
State laws expected to help prevent a repeat of the 1998 tragedy take
effect Saturday.
The laws allow state social workers to make potentially volatile home
visits in pairs or with a police officer.
They also will be trained to recognize and avoid potentially dangerous
situations. And people who threaten or attack Family Independence Agency
employees because of their jobs will face stiffer penalties.
"If Lisa would have had someone with her that day, we would still have
her. It's that simple," her mother, Barbara Putman-Case, told the Lansing
State Journal.
But some, including Putman's mother, say the new policies do not go far
enough to protect Michigan's 13,000 FIA workers. They say workers should be
forced to go in pairs on all house visits and investigations, be taught
self-defense or personal protection techniques, or be allowed to carry Mace
to protect themselves.
"We're messing with one of a human being's most primal instincts when we
try to take their child away," said Dennis Burdick, an FIA foster care
monitor and union representative in Ingham County. "There are going to be
violent incidents."
Two Ingham County workers investigating a child abuse case last year were
almost run down by a car driven by a client's relative, Burdick said. FIA
workers in Isabella County, about 60 miles north of Lansing, occasionally
have donned bulletproof vests, according to a union representative for the
employees.
But it is the murder of Putman that inspired the laws passed in June.
The 28-year-old Michigan State University graduate was killed by a Macomb
County client and the client's sister during what she thought would be a
routine home visit in a child protection case.
Putman had obtained a court order to have children removed from the home
of Josephine Verellen. The children were placed with their grandparents
because Verellen's house was too filthy for them to live in.
Putman revisited the house two days later to see if it was clean enough
for the children to return. Verellen and her sister, Jacqueline Verellen,
grabbed Putman and hit her with a hammer.
"Why are you doing this to me?" Putman cried as the sisters attacked her,
according to court testimony. "I'm just trying to help you."
The blows dazed the social worker but likely would not have killed her,
medical examiners said. The sisters bound and gagged Putman, pulled a
plastic garbage bag over her head and left her in a locked bathroom.
Putman suffocated while the sisters went looking for the children. The
sisters pleaded guilty to second-degree murder. Josephine Verellen was
sentenced to 50-75 years in prison. Jacqueline Verellen was sentenced to
25-50 years.
The death outraged the Macomb County community, where Putman was a
popular and well-liked child abuse investigator.
"I was sickened," said Rep. Alan Sanborn, R-Richmond, a former probation
officer who knew Putman and sponsored "Lisa's Law" -- one of the bills
passed in June. "Something needed to be done to protect workers who are out
there on the front lines trying to protect children."
Soon after Putman's death, FIA began adopting new safety procedures that
have cost more than $1 million. Caseworkers have received more than 2,500
cellular phones and Nextel two-way radios. About 900 state cars have been
retrofitted with keyless entry and alarm systems.
The agency has changed procedures to better share information about cases
and better identify clients who could become dangerous.
Protecting workers
Five laws take effect Sept. 1 to help protect Michigan Family
Independence Agency workers:
* Public Act 14 requires the FIA to provide a training program for
employees required to make investigations or home visits. Workers learn how
to pacify threatening behavior and recognize potentially dangerous
situations. It also allows an investigator to have a second FIA employee or
police officer with them on home visits.
* Public Acts 19 and 21 prohibit people from impersonating an FIA
employee. Such an impersonation would be punishable by two years in prison
and a $1,000 fine.
* Public Acts 20 and 22 makes the maximum penalty for assault and battery
of an FIA employee a felony, punishable by up to five years in prison and up
to a $5,000 fine. Threatening an FIA employee becomes a misdemeanor
punishable by a year in jail and a $1,000 fine.
--
www.DontTakeOurKids.com
--
http://www.haywired.com/inthemail
Jill
All they had to do was make the house clean enough to live in.
It's people like that who prove that CPS is a good thing.
~ Jill
"DontTakeOurKids.com" <pro...@DontTakeOurKids.com> wrote in message
news:mxrj7.17518$xb1.7...@news1.rdc1.ne.home.com...
DeWayne
> This made me so sick. Theose stupid people lost thier
kids for good now.
> All they had to do was make the house clean enough to live
in.
>
> It's people like that who prove that CPS is a good thing.
Another uneducated CPS pigeon.
DeWayne
Greg Hanson
Somehow every time people hear "clutter" they think filth.
Ours was cluttered but not filthy.
We got angry when the caseworker came back, because
every time we asked them to tell us what the standards
were, they gave us the "deer in the headlights" look.
6 months later they still* have not given us the relevant
code or standards.
I found the Iowa CPS Assessment manual online, and the
closest I could come to cutter in any way was safety.
As we've suspected,there IS no standard. It's vaguery.
Ours was no "garbage house" case.
They never took pictures, for a reason.
I was once inside a house where two litttle old ladies
had taken in 25 cats and 7 dogs and the house was
a bio hazard.
I was also in a house with tall book cases everywhere,
full of books. Many truly valuable collectables.
Even rich people's houses have "clutter" in some rooms.
DeWayne
below the standards they require of us. They probably live
in trash filled, cluttered, filthy homes, but don't notice
that. Let government clean its own house before it points
its ugly, corrupt finger.
DeWayne
"Greg Hanson" <gre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Ghwj7.21331$0O6.5...@news1.elmhst1.il.home.com...
free_kaler
>
>
>"Jill" <jk...@charter.net> -----
>news:tostjbh...@corp.supernews.com...
>> This made me so sick. Theose stupid people lost thier
>kids for good now.
>> All they had to do was make the house clean enough to live
>in.
>>
>> It's people like that who prove that CPS is a good thing.
>
>Another uneducated CPS pigeon.
>DeWayne
Geesh, DeWayne, you're not giving pigeons much credit. I've alway's wondered who
it really was that broke their crown. Wasn't Jack.
"..and that you may never experience the
humility that the power of the American Government
has reduced me to, is the wish of him, who, in his
native forests, was once as proud and bold as yourself."
Black Hawk, 1833
DeWayne
"free_kaler" <free_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:drEj7.13$F4...@www.newsranger.com...
> In article
<z1wj7.13279$xb.85...@news1.mntp1.il.home.com>, DeWayne
says...
> >
> >
> >"Jill" <jk...@charter.net> -----
> >news:tostjbh...@corp.supernews.com...
> >> This made me so sick. Theose stupid people lost thier
> >kids for good now.
> >> All they had to do was make the house clean enough to
live
> >in.
> >>
> >> It's people like that who prove that CPS is a good
thing.
> >
> >Another uneducated CPS pigeon.
> >DeWayne
>
> Geesh, DeWayne, you're not giving pigeons much credit.
I've alway's wondered who
> it really was that broke their crown. Wasn't Jack.
OK, I apologize to all pigeons.
DeWayne
Fern5827
I try to forward on topic CPS posts to those NG's, E.g., hepatitis,
breastfeeding, etc.
It is the only way ordinary folk will realize how out of control CPS is in its
mania to preserve jobs.
Why don't they fix up the inner-city housing stock and repaint the schools?
Neal Feldman
"DontTakeOurKids.com" wrote:
> http://www.detnews.com/2001/metro/0108/30/b07d-282051.htm
>
> Advocates say revised rules don't go far enough to protect agency employees
>
> By Associated Press
>
> LANSING -- Lisa Putman was beaten, bound, gagged and tossed into a
> bathtub to die -- all because she was a state social worker.
Couldn't POSSIBLY be because she violated the civil, human, constitutional, due
process or parental rights of one person too many and ran into someone she would
rather in 20/20 hindsight have avoided, eh?
Sorry, but I have a great deal of difficulty feeling any sympathy for social
workers who get what they so richly deserve in such a large percentage of cases.
> State laws expected to help prevent a repeat of the 1998 tragedy take
> effect Saturday.
> The laws allow state social workers to make potentially volatile home
> visits in pairs or with a police officer.
Running scared of the general citizenry. Historically this is one of the last
stages before a corrupt regime collapses.
> They also will be trained to recognize and avoid potentially dangerous
> situations.
You mean like violating the civil, human, constitutional, due process and
parental rights of citizens, kidnapping the innocent children of innocent
citizens and then denying any and all legal and reasonable recourse for redress?
> And people who threaten or attack Family Independence Agency
> employees because of their jobs will face stiffer penalties.
Because of their jobs, eh? You mean someone who is innocent of any wrongdoing
who a scumbag socialwrecker kidnaps their kids, cannot defend their family
without facing 'stiffer penalties'?
> "If Lisa would have had someone with her that day, we would still have
> her. It's that simple," her mother, Barbara Putman-Case, told the Lansing
> State Journal.
Yeah, right... dream on. Maybe yes, maybe no... but someone who would do that
to her would have found a way otherwise... and you might just have lost two.
(not that I or many others would have cried many tears)
> But some, including Putman's mother, say the new policies do not go far
> enough to protect Michigan's 13,000 FIA workers. They say workers should be
> forced to go in pairs on all house visits and investigations, be taught
> self-defense or personal protection techniques, or be allowed to carry Mace
> to protect themselves.
Wow ... mace... I have seen people have mace used on them and still pretty much
disassemble the mace user. But if it makes them feel 'secure' go right ahead.
All it shows is how terrified these corrupt overlords are when they have to
mingle amongst 'the common throng'. How powerful they feel in their barricaded
offices behind their bulletproof lexan windows... but suggest they have to go
out and deal with the folk they attack and work to destroy and they show their
true color... a wide stripe of yellow up and down their back.
<chuckle>
> "We're messing with one of a human being's most primal instincts when we
> try to take their child away," said Dennis Burdick, an FIA foster care
> monitor and union representative in Ingham County.
Wow... one of them actually has a clue. Right on! Maybe if the rest of these
kidnappers figured this out they would not be so quick to kidnap the children of
innocent parents which is what they do in 85-95+% of removal cases.
> "There are going to be violent incidents."
No kidding, Nimrod! And considering the 300 million firearms in private hands
in this nation I wonder ... how will your mace hold up against a nice Smith and
Wesson 29? <chuckle>
> Two Ingham County workers investigating a child abuse case last year were
> almost run down by a car driven by a client's relative, Burdick said.
Yup, mace is gonna be SO effective there, eh? ROTFLU!
> FIA workers in Isabella County, about 60 miles north of Lansing, occasionally
> have donned bulletproof vests, according to a union representative for the
> employees.
The smarter ones... which is why one should aim for the head... a harder target,
slightly, but more likely to be effective.
The smartest do not kidnap people's children.
> But it is the murder of Putman that inspired the laws passed in June.
Got them terrified and running scared... and they have figured out that we, the
People, outnumber them, the Overlord Wannabes, by some 10,000 to one or more.
> The 28-year-old Michigan State University graduate was killed by a Macomb
> County client and the client's sister during what she thought would be a
> routine home visit in a child protection case.
> Putman had obtained a court order to have children removed from the home
> of Josephine Verellen. The children were placed with their grandparents
> because Verellen's house was too filthy for them to live in.
What? A couple dishes in the sink and the floor not perfectly vaccuumed that
morning, eh?
> Putman revisited the house two days later to see if it was clean enough
> for the children to return. Verellen and her sister, Jacqueline Verellen,
> grabbed Putman and hit her with a hammer.
> "Why are you doing this to me?" Putman cried as the sisters attacked her,
> according to court testimony. "I'm just trying to help you."
Yeah, kidnapping one's kids is ALWAYS seen as 'helping them', now isn't it?
> The blows dazed the social worker but likely would not have killed her,
> medical examiners said. The sisters bound and gagged Putman, pulled a
> plastic garbage bag over her head and left her in a locked bathroom.
> Putman suffocated while the sisters went looking for the children. The
> sisters pleaded guilty to second-degree murder. Josephine Verellen was
> sentenced to 50-75 years in prison. Jacqueline Verellen was sentenced to
> 25-50 years.
Well, they seem to have taken responsibility for THEIR acts... unlike their
kidnapping victim who clearly would never have taken responsibility for HERS or
been held in any way to answer for her crimes against the family, parents and
children.
> The death outraged the Macomb County community, where Putman was a
> popular and well-liked child abuse investigator.
That is an oxymoron, unless of course you are only asking the opinions of other
kidnapping social wreckers. Gestapo CPS socialwreckers are amongst the most
despised occupation, below even crack dealers and pimps, that we have today.
> "I was sickened," said Rep. Alan Sanborn, R-Richmond, a former probation
> officer who knew Putman and sponsored "Lisa's Law" -- one of the bills
> passed in June. "Something needed to be done to protect workers who are out
> there on the front lines trying to protect children."
However they are NOT protecting children. They are allowing REALLY abused
children to languish and die, usually in foster care, while they waste time,
effort and resources harassing and persecuting innocent parents, children and
families with nearly total impunity and immunity from even their most malicious
and criminal acts.
Sooner or later people who are denied any LEGAL and REASONABLE recourse for
redress will simply resort to that which is available... the illegal and
unreasonable.
> Soon after Putman's death, FIA began adopting new safety procedures that
> have cost more than $1 million. Caseworkers have received more than 2,500
> cellular phones and Nextel two-way radios. About 900 state cars have been
> retrofitted with keyless entry and alarm systems.
Yeah, bleed the victims even more to protect the Overlord Wannabes from those
subject to their tyrany.
Outright revolution cannot be far behind, historically.
> The agency has changed procedures to better share information about cases
> and better identify clients who could become dangerous.
Ah... .more profiling. How nice...
> Protecting workers
>
> Five laws take effect Sept. 1 to help protect Michigan Family
> Independence Agency workers:
> * Public Act 14 requires the FIA to provide a training program for
> employees required to make investigations or home visits. Workers learn how
> to pacify threatening behavior and recognize potentially dangerous
> situations. It also allows an investigator to have a second FIA employee or
> police officer with them on home visits.
I think they would do a lot better to protect themselves by TRAINING their
workers in knowing the civil, constitutional, human, due process and parental
rights of those they are dealing with and how to not violate or trample on any
of them.
Also training them to leave their rabid anti-parent anti-family biases and
delusion of seeing child abuse behind every tree and under every rock behind and
judging situations on the actual merits, not what best serves their funding
streams.
> * Public Acts 19 and 21 prohibit people from impersonating an FIA
> employee. Such an impersonation would be punishable by two years in prison
> and a $1,000 fine.
Who the heck would WANT to? EEEWWWWW!
But last I checked impersonating an officer or agent of the government was
ALREADY a crime. Getting a tad redundant just to seem like they are doing
something, aren't they?
<chuckle>
> * Public Acts 20 and 22 makes the maximum penalty for assault and battery
> of an FIA employee a felony, punishable by up to five years in prison and up
> to a $5,000 fine.
What is the max penalty for assault and battery against anyone else? Why do FIA
agents, some of the most despised people on the planet, deserve extra
protections which clearly violate the 14th Amendment to the US Constitution
which proclaims that there shall be EQUAL treatment under the law for ALL
citizens.
I guess some people are just 'more equal' than others, eh?
> Threatening an FIA employee becomes a misdemeanor
> punishable by a year in jail and a $1,000 fine.
Define 'threatening'.
And how do they square this with free speech rights?
Oh... forget I asked... they do not acknowledge any constitutional rights of the
slave classes (parents).
> www.DontTakeOurKids.com
> http://www.haywired.com/inthemail
--
Neal Feldman
Jill wrote:
> This made me so sick. Theose stupid people lost thier kids for good now.
It is pretty clear they realized the game Gestapo CPS was playing and that no
matter what they did they would never have seen their kids in their own custody
again.
They got back at those attacking them the only way they could. The only way
they were allowed, since in almost all cases all legal and reasonable avenues of
recourse against such attackers are blocked and barred.
> All they had to do was make the house clean enough to live in.
And the next million other demands of the Overlord Wannabes...
> It's people like that who prove that CPS is a good thing.
No, Jill... it is people like that who prove me right... that the general
population is, to quote a phrase, 'mad as hell and not going to take it
anymore'. If you knew anything about history you would see the blazing signs of
the collapse of a corrupt tyrany.
--
Neal Feldman
Greg Hanson wrote:
> CPS keeps implying our house was not clean, when it was.
Did the same with me... did not even have pictures or the benefit of
even going into the house to back up their claims. When I showed them
the pictures demonstrating that it WAS clean, and they still insisted on
searching the house, doing so, and coming up empty, they were mad enough
to chew neutronium!
<chuckle>
> Somehow every time people hear "clutter" they think filth.
> Ours was cluttered but not filthy.
My home too... it is a modest home with several children where we
LIVE... I tend to be something of a homebody... we do not spend most of
our time running around... most of our activities are here in the home.
So the home is lived in... it is not a museum.
> We got angry when the caseworker came back, because
> every time we asked them to tell us what the standards
> were, they gave us the "deer in the headlights" look.
Of course... because if they give you specifics you can meet their
demands... so long as they are vague they can always claim it is not
good enough no matter what you do.
> 6 months later they still* have not given us the relevant code or
> standards.
And likely they never will.
> I found the Iowa CPS Assessment manual online, and the
> closest I could come to cutter in any way was safety.
> As we've suspected,there IS no standard. It's vaguery.
Absolutely.
> Ours was no "garbage house" case.
> They never took pictures, for a reason.
Quite true.
> I was once inside a house where two litttle old ladies
> had taken in 25 cats and 7 dogs and the house was
> a bio hazard.
I had friends when I was growing up who bred dogs in the home... I guess
by the inane and insane 'standards' their home was 'unsanitary'... but
then again pretty much anyone's will be who has a pet of any kind.
> I was also in a house with tall book cases everywhere,
> full of books. Many truly valuable collectables.
>
> Even rich people's houses have "clutter" in some rooms.
Yup... but they have something most do not... a number in their rolodex
for their on-retainer lawyer with a major law firm behind them.
Neal Feldman
DeWayne wrote:
> I strongly suspect nearly all CPS case workers are well
> below the standards they require of us. They probably live
> in trash filled, cluttered, filthy homes, but don't notice
> that. Let government clean its own house before it points
> its ugly, corrupt finger.
> DeWayne
You want a test? Go to the local office of Gestapo CPS... check the
cars of the workers... they are the ones who come in before the shop
actually opens. It is amazing how filthy the insides of their cars are,
how cluttered, garbage strewn around, etc.
And they try and judge others?
ROTFLU!
>
>
> "Greg Hanson" <gre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:Ghwj7.21331$0O6.5...@news1.elmhst1.il.home.com...
> > CPS keeps implying our house was not clean, when it was.
> > Somehow every time people hear "clutter" they think filth.
> > Ours was cluttered but not filthy.
> >
> > We got angry when the caseworker came back, because
> > every time we asked them to tell us what the standards
> > were, they gave us the "deer in the headlights" look.
> > 6 months later they still* have not given us the relevant
> > code or standards.
> > I found the Iowa CPS Assessment manual online, and the
> > closest I could come to cutter in any way was safety.
> > As we've suspected,there IS no standard. It's vaguery.
> > Ours was no "garbage house" case.
> > They never took pictures, for a reason.
> >
> > I was once inside a house where two litttle old ladies
> > had taken in 25 cats and 7 dogs and the house was
> > a bio hazard.
> > I was also in a house with tall book cases everywhere,
> > full of books. Many truly valuable collectables.
> >
> > Even rich people's houses have "clutter" in some rooms.
> >
> >
--
bobb
"DontTakeOurKids.com" <pro...@DontTakeOurKids.com> wrote in message
news:mxrj7.17518$xb1.7...@news1.rdc1.ne.home.com...
>
> Advocates say revised rules don't go far enough to protect agency
employees
>
> By Associated Press
>
> LANSING -- Lisa Putman was beaten, bound, gagged and tossed into a
> bathtub to die -- all because she was a state social worker.
> State laws expected to help prevent a repeat of the 1998 tragedy take
> effect Saturday.
> The laws allow state social workers to make potentially volatile home
> visits in pairs or with a police officer.
It takes a law to visit a potentially volative home in pairs or with a
police officer? How stupied? If a social worker thought there was a
problem... no doubt a simple call to the police is all that is necessary.
> They also will be trained to recognize and avoid potentially dangerous
> situations. And people who threaten or attack Family Independence Agency
> employees because of their jobs will face stiffer penalties.
> "If Lisa would have had someone with her that day, we would still have
> her. It's that simple," her mother, Barbara Putman-Case, told the Lansing
> State Journal.
> But some, including Putman's mother, say the new policies do not go far
> enough to protect Michigan's 13,000 FIA workers. They say workers should
be
> forced to go in pairs on all house visits and investigations, be taught
> self-defense or personal protection techniques, or be allowed to carry
Mace
> to protect themselves.
Sure... social workers are expected to become police officers... carry
mace... and next carry guns.
> "We're messing with one of a human being's most primal instincts when
we
> try to take their child away," said Dennis Burdick, an FIA foster care
> monitor and union representative in Ingham County. "There are going to be
> violent incidents."
> Two Ingham County workers investigating a child abuse case last year
were
> almost run down by a car driven by a client's relative, Burdick said. FIA
> workers in Isabella County, about 60 miles north of Lansing, occasionally
> have donned bulletproof vests, according to a union representative for the
> employees.
> But it is the murder of Putman that inspired the laws passed in June.
> The 28-year-old Michigan State University graduate was killed by a
Macomb
> County client and the client's sister during what she thought would be a
> routine home visit in a child protection case.
> Putman had obtained a court order to have children removed from the
home
> of Josephine Verellen. The children were placed with their grandparents
> because Verellen's house was too filthy for them to live in.
If CPS were really doing their job... they would have spent the time and
money cleaning the house and training the adults and kids how to maintain
it.. not steal the kids away.
Let's see now... one million dollars spent to adopt procedures that are
expected to prevent a social worker from being struck in the head with a
hammer.
> The agency has changed procedures to better share information about
cases
> and better identify clients who could become dangerous.
>
> Protecting workers
>
> Five laws take effect Sept. 1 to help protect Michigan Family
> Independence Agency workers:
> * Public Act 14 requires the FIA to provide a training program for
> employees required to make investigations or home visits. Workers learn
how
> to pacify threatening behavior and recognize potentially dangerous
> situations. It also allows an investigator to have a second FIA employee
or
> police officer with them on home visits.
It's still rediculeous to pass a law to 'allow' an investigator to have a
second employee or associate to make a home visit. Was there a law that said
only one social worker is allowed to visit a home?
bobb
"Greg Hanson" <gre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Ghwj7.21331$0O6.5...@news1.elmhst1.il.home.com...
'clean' houses should attact the problem... not remove the kids.
bobb
bobb
>
>
> Jill wrote:
>
> > This made me so sick. Theose stupid people lost thier kids for good
now.
>
> It is pretty clear they realized the game Gestapo CPS was playing and that
no
> matter what they did they would never have seen their kids in their own
custody
> again.
>
> They got back at those attacking them the only way they could. The only
way
> they were allowed, since in almost all cases all legal and reasonable
avenues of
> recourse against such attackers are blocked and barred.
>
> > All they had to do was make the house clean enough to live in.
>
> And the next million other demands of the Overlord Wannabes...
>
> > It's people like that who prove that CPS is a good thing.
>
> No, Jill... it is people like that who prove me right... that the general
> population is, to quote a phrase, 'mad as hell and not going to take it
> anymore'. If you knew anything about history you would see the blazing
signs of
> the collapse of a corrupt tyrany.
Yes, Jill... read Neal's comment carefully. CPS is so blinded by greed,
power, and authority... they are unable to find alternatives for even the
cluttered, diry house, syndrome... except take the kids away. In these
matters, CPS is NOT a good thing.
Consider that the money CPS is spending in legal fees, court costs,
counslers, home visits, social workers and related staff... that money
would be better spent providing a maid service to clean the place up... and
provide regular inspections by the maid service to see that it is
maintained. It certainly does not require a high paid social worker to
evaluate the cleanliness of a house.
bobb
bobb
Jill
As you have noticed, I'm not anti-CPS or anything, but I think you've made a
really good point. Unless we are talking rat infested, cockraoch breeding,
mold growing filth, I don't see why the kids should be removed.
If CPS had a maid service, I would call them myself! I've been ill for over
a week, my second pregnancy is taking a toll. I have an active toddler who
just started walking, and my house, though not dirty, is cluttered and messy
as Florida after a hurricane.
I've read several of your past posts from other news groups and I think you
are insightful, informed and intellegent. Not that my opinion of you
changes your life or anything! LOL
Jill
"bobb" <BOB...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:9n80om$mch$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net...
> Consider that the money CPS is spending in legal fees, court costs,
> counslers, home visits, social workers and related staff... that money
> would be better spent providing a maid service to clean the place up...
and
> provide regular inspections by the maid service to see that it is
> maintained. It certainly does not require a high paid social worker to
> evaluate the cleanliness of a house.
>
> bobb
>I'm gonna repeat for those hard of hearing... CPS in their concern for
Jill
I respect your right to your opinions but I have a hard time believing
certain things you say because you call it "Gestapo CPS". I don't take name
callers seriously, in my experience, it seems that they can't be objective.
CPS needs changes, definitely, but it isn't all bad, and CPS workers are not
all corrupt.
Even if my children were taken, I would never use illegal force to get them
back. This does not mean I don't love them, but I will not show them (the
children) that using force is the answer. You talk about CPS using force to
remove children, why would anyone who disagrees with that method sink to
that level?
~ Jill
"Neal Feldman" <silve...@home.net> wrote in message
news:3B92CE10...@home.net...
Neal Feldman
bobb wrote:
Absolutely!
> Consider that the money CPS is spending in legal fees, court costs,
> counslers, home visits, social workers and related staff... that money
> would be better spent providing a maid service to clean the place up... and
> provide regular inspections by the maid service to see that it is
> maintained.
Absolutely!
> It certainly does not require a high paid social worker to evaluate the
> cleanliness of a house.
Absolutely!
Neal Feldman
Jill wrote:
> Hi!
>
> As you have noticed, I'm not anti-CPS or anything,
I think that comes under the heading 'understatements of the millenium'... 9-}
> but I think you've made a
> really good point. Unless we are talking rat infested, cockraoch breeding,
> mold growing filth, I don't see why the kids should be removed.
Thank you.
> If CPS had a maid service, I would call them myself! I've been ill for over
> a week, my second pregnancy is taking a toll. I have an active toddler who
> just started walking, and my house, though not dirty, is cluttered and messy
> as Florida after a hurricane.
Better desperately hope no Gestapo CPS agents visit... or not only would they
kidnap your toddler but also stand over you in the delivery room and snatch the
newborn infant right from the hands of the doctors!
> I've read several of your past posts from other news groups and I think you
> are insightful, informed and intellegent. Not that my opinion of you
> changes your life or anything! LOL
>
> Jill
>
> "bobb" <BOB...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:9n80om$mch$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net...
> > Consider that the money CPS is spending in legal fees, court costs,
> > counslers, home visits, social workers and related staff... that money
> > would be better spent providing a maid service to clean the place up...
> and
> > provide regular inspections by the maid service to see that it is
> > maintained. It certainly does not require a high paid social worker to
> > evaluate the cleanliness of a house.
> >
> > bobb
>
> >I'm gonna repeat for those hard of hearing... CPS in their concern for
> >'clean' houses should attact the problem... not remove the kids.
> >bobb
--
Neal Feldman
Jill wrote:
> Neal,
>
> I respect your right to your opinions but I have a hard time believing
> certain things you say because you call it "Gestapo CPS".
Sorry, Jill, to hear that just because you dislike an accurate term you will
delusuionally dismiss anything said.
I am by far not the first or only one to use that accurate term. They act like
Gestapo so it is entirely correct to describe them as such.
Why don't you just dump the closedmindedness and look at the facts and you will
see I am entirely correct in what I say.
> I don't take name callers seriously,
Calling a bigot a bigot is not namecalling, it is accurate description. Same
with Gestapo CPS. Please show me a legitimate definition for namecalling which
includes legitimate and accurate description.
> in my experience, it seems that they can't be objective.
Then your experience is extremely limited.
> CPS needs changes, definitely, but it isn't all bad,
No, just 95+% bad... and each of those percentage points reflects hundreds or
thousands of innocent families, parents and children destroyed and abused by
this heinous monstrosity....
Yeah, no reason to strongly oppose it or call for its eradication, eh Jill?
Perish the thought and pass the Mint Julip, if you please?
>RETCH!<
> and CPS workers are not all corrupt.
Just most of them. Those who are not flee from those agencies at a high rate of
speed. These agencies are about the only ones with greater than 100% annual
turnover.
Ever wonder why?
Those who stick around are, for the most part, the most corrupt... but there are
a miniscule minority who are idealists who have deluded themselves that they can
'reform from within'. Sooner or later they either give up in futility or slit
their own wrists.
> Even if my children were taken, I would never use illegal force to get them
> back.
Me? I would use whatever was necessary to get them back and to so severely
punish those who took them that no one would EVER be stupid enough screw with my
family again.
They would be VERY lucky if I were unable to find some small amount of weapons
grade plutonium... for I know full well how to make quite destructive use of it,
and if they kidnapped my kids again I would have no compunctions at all of using
such means against the kidnappers. None at all.
Someone needs to take a stand, and one which will not, cannot, be ignored.
> This does not mean I don't love them,
Certainly if given the situation that legally you will lose them forever though
you did nothing wrong, or illegally you might get them back and remain a family,
if you just like a little sheep to the slaughter choose only the legal path when
confronted by such clearly illegal manipulations of the system as to create the
scenario in the first place then in fact NO... you do not love your children as
much as I love mine... or the Christines theirs.
> but I will not show them (the children) that using force is the answer.
Why do you think it is ok when Gestapo CPS does so?
If 'using force is not the answer' I ask you... how is your German or Japanese
language skills? For following your BS we would be speaking one or the other
right now in the US.
If 'using force is not the answer' what is the purpose of all the billions spent
on our military and law enforcement, hmmmmmm Jill?
You come across as extremely naive to say the least, Jill.
> You talk about CPS using force to
> remove children, why would anyone who disagrees with that method sink to
> that level?
Because sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.
It is generally considered wrong to kill... but perfectly ok to do so in self
defense.
Do you not comprehend family self defense against destructive assault by Gestapo
CPS?
> "Neal Feldman" <silve...@home.net> wrote in message
> news:3B92CE10...@home.net...
> > No, Jill... it is people like that who prove me right... that the general
> > population is, to quote a phrase, 'mad as hell and not going to take it
> > anymore'. If you knew anything about history you would see the blazing
> signs of
> > the collapse of a corrupt tyrany.
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