By way of introduction...
Buzzard
on the latest miracle cure, found what I was looking for, then started
reading threads. It is amazing how every busy NG is just so similar to
others that are on completely different subjects. Is there an unwritten
Usenet rule that assigns one contentious name-calling flamer to each
NG? You guys seem to have this MH fellow(?), over on rec.backcountry we
have Mike Vandeman, and alt.religion.mormon has Lance Ferm. Different
names and NG's, but exact same pattern.....Just my .02.
I have a 17 YO autistic son, (Brian), a 10 YO NT daughter (Chantal),
and tend to be a bit cynical about all the "cures" for autism that come
down the pike (anyone remember facilitated communication?). But OTOH, I
owe it to my son to at least check it out and run it by the Doctor.
I have a badly outdated web page at http://pages.prodigy.net/buzzards
. It is *not* about autism per se, but does contain a couple of items
that might be of interest to some of you here. I take Brian with me
backpacking, and put up a page and a couple of pictures on the subject
of going into the wilderness with an autistic hiking buddy. If you are
curious as to what eight days away from the road (and flush toilets) was
like, check out my Uinta trip report on my main backpacking page also.
Parting shot..if anyone here does the same with their kid(s), or would
like to try, if you live in SoCal or Utah (I go there at least 1X/year),
e-mail me if you would like to try to arrange a joint trip. Brian is a
great trail partner, but he ain't much for conversation.
Lorin John
aka Buzzard
MH
here below.
MH, me, is under a constant barrage of insults, slurs, and slings from
bile-spewing malcontents whose main goal on the newsgroup is to pat each
other on the back. I call them controlling twits. Sometimes I point out
something stupid someone is doing or saying--I'm not one to stand by and be
on a list with idiots.
Then there is the whole other side of the coin where someone genuinely
can't read plain English and misinterprets what I have said and goes on a
salivating rampage of fake indignation. What a show!!!
Buzzard wrote in message <366581DC...@prodigy.net>...
CWilson379
others; look at the sci.cognitive group (I went there hoping to see some
cognitive science) and you'll see a heap of racist tripe written by a
prehistoric creature calling himself Big Don. His drivel also goes to
rec.org.mensa, misc.seattle, misc.handicap and who knows where. This reptilian
being makes MH look like a member of the British aristocracy.
Big Don likes to use a lot of four-letter words and acronyms, and his idiocy
became so well-known there is now a "LOOT FAQ" surrounding his word usage. At
least MH stays in autism territory, mostly, and there isn't a "Mike Hack FAQ" -
not yet, anyway. Come to think of it, Big Don and MH are both from Seattle . .
. Maybe they're neighbors.
gol...@shani.net
Buzzard <Buzz...@prodigy.net> wrote:
> This is my first time posting to this NG, I wandered by looking for info
> on the latest miracle cure, found what I was looking for, then started
> I have a 17 YO autistic son, (Brian), a 10 YO NT daughter (Chantal),
> and tend to be a bit cynical about all the "cures" for autism that come
> down the pike (anyone remember facilitated communication?). But OTOH, I
> owe it to my son to at least check it out and run it by the Doctor.
> Lorin John
> aka Buzzard
>
Buzzard asks "anyone remember facilitated communication?"
Sigh! Here I sit, agonizing for months about how to explain to the rest of
the world about the wonderful program my 26 year-old son Ben has been in for
the past four years using facilitated communication, and I read the above
statement. The Pisgat Yehuda program in the small community of Zichron
Yaakov, Israel has expanded to include five adults with so-called
developmental disabilities, mostly autism but including one person with
Down's. All five of these adults taken in by the Pisgat Yehuda program are
success stories in terms of practical results of their living situations,
starting four years ago for my own son and two years ago for the fifth
person who had spent 15 years in isolated institutions. Although my own son
was able to come here directly from a wonderful school program (but he had to
leave due to turning 22), I had thought that the living situation for many
adults with autism was pretty atrotious.
Maybe if the readers of this newsgroup ask me questions I will be able to
provide the information I want to share with you about the wonderful
Pisgat Yehuda program which is based on the use of facilitated communication.
Of course, maybe the rest of you now have wonderful lives available for
adults with autism and do not need my information.
Please let me know what is really happening in the rest of the world, outside
of our little paradise on earth for adults with autism.
Art
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---- Arthur Golden <gol...@shani.net> P.O.Box 3173 tel. 972-6-6392648
Zichron Yaakov ISRAEL fax - please phone first
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Susan Gazzara
just claims that autistic people could utilize it without being taught to
read and write. I think all of the cure d'jours work for some kids. That
the agony for me anyway constantly trying and wondering "Was this the one,
and I didn't try?"
A special hell reserved for all of us.
farg...@my-dejanews.com
Buzzard <Buzz...@prodigy.net> wrote:
> This is my first time posting to this NG,
Loren,
Welcome.
Fargo
John M Price PhD
Go to:
go to the search area, and enter the terms facilitated communication
Also, I recently put up some cites in sci.psychology.psychotherapy.
Later, I think I'll collect a bunch of cites to place on my FTP site about
the quackery involved here.
There are much better ways to use your resources to help these folks than
this.
Art here, BTW, is decidedly proFC, and that can easily be seen in his web
site which claims to have con articles, but doesn't. I have one question
for the proFC contingent:
If it is so effective at providing a communication channel for the
autists, why is it impossible for the description of a simple stimulus
from the autists to be communicated, unless the facilitator has also seen
the same stimulus?
In article <7461at$11sq$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com> Susan Gazzara <TBJ...@prodigy.com> wrote:
: I would love to hear about your program. I never wrote off FC completely,
--
John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or by finger!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683
I hate broccoli, but in a way I am broccoli.
- The Tick
Michael Lee Van Cleave
people. It may not work for all but I get extremely frustrated with
blanket dismissals of things that some families have found helpful.
PLEASE DON'T DO THAT! That takes a lot of gall to tell someone who has
found that to be helpful that they are lying or wrong. There are, I am
sure some quacks out there, but can't you say the same for the Legal
profession? Contractors? Priests? The medical profession? You don't
advise people to not see a doctor if they need one do you? You might
tell them to be careful, or give them a reference to a doctor you found
to be helpful. But you don't make a blanket statement that they are all
quacks based on the fact that there are a few quacks out there. Of
course it is not a miracle cure! None of these therapies are. But many
of them help in a small way and all those small differences add up.
Please allow the family's of autistic people to make up their own minds
based on what they know about their child. And their own research
whether or not to try it. Most of them are smarter (the family's and
the autistic person) than they are given credit for. Kathy V
Jacqui Houlding
from cwils...@aol.com (CWilson379) contains these words:
> Yes, I think it is a Usenet rule. Some trolls cover more territory than
> others; look at the sci.cognitive group (I went there hoping to see some
> cognitive science) and you'll see a heap of racist tripe written by a
> prehistoric creature calling himself Big Don. His drivel also goes to
> rec.org.mensa, misc.seattle, misc.handicap and who knows where. This reptilian
> being makes MH look like a member of the British aristocracy.
You make it sound as if the British aristocracy is good! As a Brit
who is not of the aristocracy - the only thing I'm jealous of is the
money they seem to have, their own or mine!
Jacqui ;)
John M Price PhD
: Like most of the other therapy's out there, FC does work for some
: people. It may not work for all but I get extremely frustrated with
: blanket dismissals of things that some families have found helpful.
: PLEASE DON'T DO THAT! That takes a lot of gall to tell someone who has
Sorry. I will do that. This is quackery, plain and simple. Pointing out
the nature of this stuff is in the public interest. Just like others do
for homeopathy.
Why don't you read more about it?
: found that to be helpful that they are lying or wrong. There are, I am
: sure some quacks out there, but can't you say the same for the Legal
: profession? Contractors? Priests? The medical profession? You don't
: advise people to not see a doctor if they need one do you? You might
: tell them to be careful, or give them a reference to a doctor you found
: to be helpful. But you don't make a blanket statement that they are all
: quacks based on the fact that there are a few quacks out there. Of
All FC is quackery.
read more about it before parading your ignorance of the subject all over
the place.
: course it is not a miracle cure! None of these therapies are. But many
: of them help in a small way and all those small differences add up.
: Please allow the family's of autistic people to make up their own minds
: based on what they know about their child. And their own research
: whether or not to try it. Most of them are smarter (the family's and
: the autistic person) than they are given credit for. Kathy V
I'd rather they use the resources for somethiong other than a pipe dream.
Yes, devoted attention to the kid is going to be helpful. But why couch
it in quackery?
Really.
Please check the quackwatch page.
Then search the place for facilitated communication. (There are over 400
pages on the site.
--
John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or by finger!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683
'Twas the Night before Crisis
'Twas the night before crisis, and all through the house,
Not a program was working not even a browse.
The programmers were wrung out too mindless to care,
Knowing chances of cutover hadn't a prayer.
The users were nestled all snug in their beds,
While visions of inquiries danced in their heads.
When out in the lobby there arose such a clatter,
I sprang from my tube to see what was the matter.
And what to my wondering eyes should appear,
But a Super Programmer, oblivious to fear.
More rapid than eagles, his programs they came,
And he whistled and shouted and called them by name;
On Update! On Add! On Inquiry! On Delete!
On Batch Jobs! On Closing! On Functions Complete!
His eyes were glazed over, his fingers were lean,
From Weekends and nights in front of a screen.
A wink of his eye, and a twist of his head,
Soon gave me to know I had nothing to dread...
gol...@shani.net
However, I do wish to publicly thank Kathy Van Cleave for
her kind words.
Art
In article <3666bab4.0@calwebnnrp>,
John M Price PhD <jmp...@calweb.com> wrote:
> You should write it off.
>
[snip]
jenwolf
<kathy...@w-link.net> wrote:
>But you don't make a blanket statement that they are all
>quacks based on the fact that there are a few quacks out there.
actually, i believe he called the program itself a quackery; which is
not a reference to any doctor in particular.
> Of course it is not a miracle cure! None of these therapies are. But many
>of them help in a small way and all those small differences add up.
perhaps, but imo, it had better be a dramatic difference directly
proportional to how much money i shell out for each "therapy."
>Please allow the family's of autistic people to make up their own minds
>based on what they know about their child. And their own research
>whether or not to try it.
he offered an alternate view of the subject along with his opinion on
the subject in general. just like you did. what's wrong with that?
> Most of them are smarter (the family's and
>the autistic person) than they are given credit for.
then why are you worried about anyone reading the "quack" website?
=================================
http://www.bigfoot.com/~jenwolf
John M Price PhD
: I have decided to answer through private e-mail only.
: However, I do wish to publicly thank Kathy Van Cleave for
: her kind words.
: Art
Sorry, this issue is too important to be swept under the rug like that.
It started in news, keep it in news.
: In article <3666bab4.0@calwebnnrp>,
: John M Price PhD <jmp...@calweb.com> wrote:
: > You should write it off.
: >
: [snip]
: -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
: http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
--
John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or by finger!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683
"As the most participatory form of mass speech yet developed, the
Internet deserves the highest protection from government intrusion."
- U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania
Dolores K. Sloviter, chief judge, U.S. Third Circuit Court of Appeals
U.S. District Judge Ronald L. Buckwalter &
U.S. District Judge Stewart Dalzell, presiding
MH
"Loose lips sink ships" by now.
Must be old age babbling. Next she'll be confessing in the Diana affair.
Jacqui Houlding wrote in message <199812031...@zetnet.co.uk>...
Susan Gazzara
miracle cure and probably will only work for a certain percentage of
people. All autistic people are not the same and the condition doesn't
stem from the thing. If autism is defined as a set of behavioral symptoms,
and no cause has been pinpointed yet, it seems really feasible for me
anyway that some people have an intact intelligence but a neurological
misfire that prevents them from controlling their body enough to
communicate.
Now am I going to pay big bucks to hire someone to come out and
facilitate my daughter so she can type poetry on a computer. I don't
think so.
But will I get an oversize keyboard with developmentally appropriate
software to teach her basic sight words and how to both read and type
them, you betcha. I think the experts in this field need to credit
parents with some common sense.
Michael Lee Van Cleave
*out
*the nature of this stuff is in the public interest. Just like others
*do for homeopathy.
I have two problems with this, the first one is that you are presuming
to tell Mr. Golden and others who have been helped with this they don't
know what they are talking about. Were you there? Did you know their
children before? After? Probably not. So how in the world can you
tell him he is wrong? 2nd. Are you also saying homeopathy is quackery?
I disagree with you here also. A homeopathic doctor helped us
tremendously with problems we had with our boys. When the other medical
doctors would not listen and would not help. I can not begin to
describe to you the frustration and anger I feel when things I have
found helpful with my two have been called frauds or useless or such. My
boys have come so very far. It makes me cry when I think of how things
used to be, before we went with some of the unconventional thinking
(unconventional at that time). All I can think about is how many other
parents out there with children who might respond to this are not going
to try it because of what this person said? All of us are different,
all of our children are different. Many of these therapy's have
subgroups of people who are helped, and people who are not helped. Why
close the door on someone who might benefit?
*Why don't you read more about it?
I have done reading on it. I considered trying this before my boys
started to become verbal. I have read from parents who are using this to
their benefit. Also of research studies who did not see it as a
benefit. Also other studies showing the first studies had biases. And
back and forth. Just like things I have read about the vitamin therapy
and diet and other things. Back and forth, you can find arguments for
either side. Some professionals think they are a viable treatment others
think they are a useless waste of money. Some of that stuff just made
sense when it came to my boys. Others didn't. Some of those helped us,
no doubt in my mind or in the minds of the other people in our lives who
knew them before and after. So I really don't care what the
professionals say anymore. It does not pertain to our reality. Of
course, not all that long ago according to the professionals autism was
caused by cold hearted mothers. Not everything printed is true you
know...either way. All I want is for all parents to be encouraged to
inform ourselves the best we can and use that knowledge along with our
intimate knowledge of our children to help them however we can. With out
being told do not try this, if we think it makes sense for our child.
Or for people who have tried something that worked for their child not
to be made to feel they are just imagining things are better. It is
just wishful thinking, a placebo effect because other than God no one
will ever know our children the way we do. Ever. Those that claim to
presume too much.
*I'd rather they use the resources for something other than a pipe
*dream.
Some of what I read was by parents who's only expenses for doing this
was their typewriter, or computer and their time.
The quacks are not the only ones out there trying to make a buck. The
pharmaceutical companies make millions, (billions?) off their little
pills, of course they don't want you to think vitamins can help you.
You can't patent and control them like the artificially created chemical
compounds. Can't hike up the prices to the point it ruins households
who are trying to help a loved one who is ill. All business have their
own agendas. Buyer beware.
I will look at your web site but it will not convince me that parents do
not know their children and do not know if this helps them or not.
While I am looking at your web site why don't you talk to some parents
who have used this with success like Mr. Golden. Maybe meet their
children. Go straight to the horses mouth.
Kathy V
Michael Lee Van Cleave
*not a reference to any doctor in particular.
Your right. That was based on my reading not what Mr. Price said. The
main question about the FC program from what reading I have done was the
whether or not the facilitator was the one doing the answering and not
the Autistic person. The facilitators were the key point of the
program. As for expenses as I said in my last post to Mr. Price I had
read of parents whose only expenses were their typewriters or computers
and their time. Not that other parents hadn't paid prettily for
facilitators, but as I said you can find that same problem in any other
profession out there. Ethics are not a given anymore in anything.
*he offered an alternate view of the subject along with his opinion on
*the subject in general. just like you did. what's wrong with that?
The difference here is that I am saying some are helped some are not.
He is saying no one can be helped it is wrong for everyone.
*then why are you worried about anyone reading the "quack" web site?
Can you please show me in my post where I told anyone not to read his
web site? My comment was to please let the family's decide if it is
something they want to try based on their own research. I think all
parents should read all they can and make informed decisions. Not just
read but also talk to other people who have done these things,
successful or not.
That also doesn't stop them from trying this on their own at home. That
was how it got started in the first place.
Kathy V
Martijn Dekker
>You should write it off.
>
>Go to:
>
>http://www.quackwatch.com
>
>go to the search area, and enter the terms facilitated communication
I was unimpressed by the little bit of information presented there.
Besides, you are not providing people with a chance to read both sides of
the story, which is why I'm posting the address of the Facilitated
Communications Institute here <http://soeweb.syr.edu/thefci/> plus the
following page from it, so that people can make up their own minds.
- Martijn
====(begin included file)====
Facts About Facilitated Communication
http://soeweb.syr.edu/thefci/fcfacts.htm
by Douglas Biklen
FACILITATED COMMUNICATION SHOULD NEVER INVOLVE GUIDING A PERSON AS HE OR
SHE ATTEMPTS TO POINT OR TYPE.
The idea is never to guide the person to a selection. In facilitation a
parent, friend, teacher, speech language clinician or other communication
partner provides physical and emotional support as the person with a
communication disability tries to point in order to communicate. The
method can involve pointing at pictures or letters. The physical support
may include: assistance in isolating the index finger; stabilizing the arm
to overcome tremor; backward resistance on the arm to slow the pace of
pointing or to overcome impulsiveness; a touch of the forearm, elbow, or
shoulder to help the person initiate typing; or pulling back on the arm or
wrist to help the person not strike a target repetitively. Emotional
support involves providing encouragement but not direction.
THERE IS EMPIRICAL RESEARCH TO SUPPORT THE VALIDITY OF FACILITATED
COMMUNICATION.
Controlled studies (e.g. Intellectual Disabilities Review Panel, 1989;
Calculator & Singer, 1992; Vazquez, 1994; Weiss, Wagner & Bauman, in
press), observational studies (Biklen, 1990 and 1993; Attwood & Remington
Gurney, 1992; Biklen, Saha & Kliewer, 1995) and autobiographical accounts
(e.g. Eastham, 1992; Oppenheim, 1974; Nolan, 1987; and Crossley &
McDonald, 1980) provide evidence that the method works. One explanation
why some researchers (e.g. Wheeler et al, 1993; Szempruch & Jacobson,
1993) have failed to replicate these positive results could be that their
tests are not valid.
Before discounting the potential competence of individuals with
disabilities, researchers have the obligation to question the competence
of their research designs.
FACILITATORS CAN INADVERTENTLY INFLUENCE (i.e. cuing, leading) THE
COMMUNICATION OF THE PERSON TO WHOM THEY ARE GIVING SUPPORT.
Influence definitely can occur (see, for example, Biklen, 1990; Biklen,
1992; Biklen 1993; and Intellectual Disability Review Panel [IDRP], 1989).
The IDRP study (1989) demonstrated that an individual who was able to type
uninfluenced communication could also be susceptible to influence. Hence
it is important for facilitators to monitor themselves and work to
minimize influence (Schubert & Biklen, 1993). But, the fact that a person
may be subject to facilitator influence does not automatically indicate
that the person is not capable of uninfluenced communication!
IT IS NOT NECESSARY FOR FACILITATORS TO BELIEVE IN THE COMPETENCE AND THE
ABILITY OF THE PERSON WITH A DISABILITY IN ORDER TO MAKE FACILITATED
COMMUNICATION WORK.
There is no need to prejudge a person's ability until it has been
demonstrated. Indeed, many people who have expressed extreme skepticism
about the method have subsequently been successful with it (Schneiderman
in 1993). Nevertheless, we have noted that as with any instructional
situation, it is important for the facilitator/teacher to express
confidence in the individual's ability to succeed with the method, much as
a coach expresses confidence in a person's ability to learn a new sport or
as a teacher exudes optimism that a young student can learn to read or do
math problems.
FACILITATED COMMUNICATION CAN BE TESTED.
When introducing a person to facilitation for the first time, it is
valuable not to be testing the individual, allowing a the person time to
build his or her confidence with the new means of communicating. This does
not mean that it is not possible to test facilitated communication.
Clearly, for the method to gain wide acceptance, it must be examined
rigorously through many kinds of tests and research. It is gratifying that
despite the potential problem that research tests could intrude upon and
upset the communication process, researchers are achieving success in
controlled studies (IDRP, 1989; Vazquez, 1994; Simon, Toll & Whitehair,
1994; Calculator & Singer, 1992), and in observational ones (Attwood &
Remington-Gurney, 1992). While our own research is comprised mainly of
long term observational studies (Biklen et al, 1992; Biklen & Schubert,
1991), some researchers at the Facilitated Communication Institute are now
beginning to design controlled experiments as well.
FACILITATED COMMUNICATION IS NOT A NEW METHOD.
Facilitated communication is known to have been used at least three
decades ago (see Oppenheim, 1974) and was discovered independently in
Sweden (see account in Schawlow & Schawlow, 1985), Canada (Eastham, 1992),
Denmark (Johnson, 1988), Australia (Crossley & McDonald, 1980), and the
U.S. (Oppenheim, 1974; Schawlow & Schawlow, 1985; L. v. Board of
Education, 1990; Berger, 1992). Only recently has the method spread
widely; this has occasioned active debate about the method.
SOME PEOPLE USING FACILITATED COMMUNICATION HAVE MADE ALLEGATIONS OF
SEXUAL ABUSE. SOME HAVE BEEN SUBSTANTIATED.
Some individuals have made allegations of abuse, but there is no evidence
that the numbers of allegations by individuals using facilitation is
proportionally different than the numbers of allegations made by speaking
people. In a survey made at the SUNY Health Sciences Center, it was found
for a given time period that of 6 case in which individuals alleged they
had been sexually abused, for 4 of them there was physical evidence they
had been abused (Botash et al, 1994). Cases can lead to court convictions
(Randall, 1993) and/or confessions by the accused. As with allegations
made by the nondisabled population, some allegations may be unfounded and
others simply impossible to prove.
IT IS POSSIBLE TO EXPLORE WHETHER ALLEGATIONS OF ABUSE MADE THROUGH
FACILITATION ARE THE WORDS OF THE PERSON WITH THE DISABILITY OR THE
PRODUCT OF FACILITATOR INFLUENCE.
In an investigation, a second facilitator could be brought in to provide
facilitation. If the person repeats his or her allegation with the same or
similar details, this would indicate that the allegation originates with
the person who uses facilitation to communicate.
SOME COURTS ARE NOW ACCEPTING TESTIMONY GIVEN THROUGH FACILITATED
COMMUNICATION.
Testimony was given in an abuse case in Wichita Kansas; a jury found the
accused guilty (Randall in Wichita Eagle, March 30 and 31, 1993). Also,
the Supreme Court Appellate Division in New York state ruled that
testimony given by such alternative means must be evaluated in each
individual case (In the Matter of Luz P., Opinion & Order, January 14,
1993; Martin, 1993); to prove her competence to be a witness in her own
case, Luz P. took and passed tests verifying her ability to communicate
her own thoughts through facilitation (see Martin, "Facilitation theory
tested", The Times Herald Record, July 31, 1993.)
FACILITATED COMMUNICATION REQUIRES TRAINED FACILITATORS.
It is important for potential facilitators to learn about the particular
physical problems the method is intended to address; it is useful for new
facilitators to practice technique, to learn how to monitor the person's
eyes on the target, to teach finger isolation, pacing and other skills
associated with working toward independent typing, to formulate
getting-started activities and to work on fading physical support.
Facilitators must also learn how to foster control by the person with the
communication impairment over his or her typing, and to avoid facilitator
influence, whether physical influence or verbal influence (e.g. completing
sentences for the person, anticipating next letters and words).
PARENTS AND FRIENDS CAN LEARN TO BE GOOD FACILITATORS.
Some teachers and some parents seem to pick up the method quickly; for
others it takes longer to learn. But many parents and teachers for whom it
was initially difficult have been able to learn the method and to achieve
confidence in their ability with it.
IN ORDER TO COMMUNICATE THROUGH TYPING, THE PERSON MUST KNOW HOW TO READ.
People do need to know how to read in order to be able to type out words.
Interestingly, many people now using facilitated communication have
already learned how to read but have had no means of showing that ability
until they could type. Not surprisingly, individuals who use facilitated
communication reveal varying literacy skills. If individuals cannot read,
they can be introduced to facilitation in which they point to pictures.
The manner of teaching them reading would be the same as for people who
can speak.
FACILITATED COMMUNICATION CAN BE USED IN COMBINATION WITH OTHER FORMS OF
EXPRESSION.
People who use facilitated communication may also continue to work on
developing their speech; some people can say the words or letters they are
about to type and some can speak a sentence that they have typed, even
though they may be unable to carry on an open ended conversation. Others
may continue to develop proficiency with manual communication. And
certainly, using facilitated communication does not preclude learning
other skills, such as independent living or employment related skills.
WE CANNOT SAY WITH WHAT PERCENTAGE OF PEOPLE FACILITATED COMMUNICATION
WILL WORK.
The method may be useful for any individuals who cannot speak or whose
speech is highly echoed or in other ways limited and who cannot point
independently *and* reliably. But we have not selected a random group of
people classified as autistic or developmentally disabled and tried the
method with them, so we cannot say with what percentage it might work.
Based on our experience, however, we believe that the method will be found
to be useful for most people who have difficulties with speech and who
cannot point reliably.
FACILITATED COMMUNICATION DOES NOT WORK EQUALLY WELL WITH EVERYONE.
As with any method, it may not be effective with some persons and will
predictably have varying success with others. Success may be related to
neurological factors (e.g. tremor, low and high muscle tone, lack of
proprioceptive awareness) and to socio-emotional factors such as amount
and nature of support, educational experience, and opportunities to
practice.
NOT EVERYONE USING FACILITATION CAN TYPE FLUENT CONVERSATIONAL COMMUNICATION.
People vary in their communicative skills. Not surprisingly, individuals
who share the same facilitator(s) demonstrate different levels of fluency
as well as personal concerns or themes, distinctive phraseology or
expressions, and other stylistic differences.
IF A PERSON TYPES FLUENTLY WITH ONE OR TWO PEOPLE, INITIALLY HE OR SHE MAY
STILL HAVE DIFFICULTY TYPING WITH OTHERS.
Since confidence plays a big part in a person's success, changing
facilitators may involve a period of adjustment and building or rebuilding
of confidence.
FACILITATED COMMUNICATION IS NOT A CURE FOR AUTISM OR OTHER DEVELOPMENTAL
DISABILITIES.
It is a means of communicating, not a cure.
PEOPLE WHO USE FACILITATION TO COMMUNICATE MAY NOT ALWAYS NEED A
FACILITATOR. THE GOAL IS INDEPENDENCE.
Already some individuals in the U.S. and many more in Australia have
demonstrated that they can learn to type independently. Because
independent typing is a realizable goal, Rosemary Crossley has referred to
the method as "Facilitated communication training."
THE FACT THAT SOME PEOPLE USING FACILITATED COMMUNICATION CAN WRITE POETRY
AND DEMONSTRATE HIGH LEVEL THINKING ABILITIES DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN
THAT THEY CAN CONTROL ALL OF THEIR BEHAVIOR.
The same neurological problems that make reliable independent pointing and
speaking difficult may also affect other behavior, for example toileting.
The fact that a person can type letters and thus communicate does not
logically mean that all other difficulties would be eradicated,
particularly if these involve stereotypies or obsessive compulsive
behavior. At the same time, some people improve in these areas as their
expressive communication developed.
THE FACT THAT A PERSON CAN POINT EFFECTIVELY SOMETIMES DOES NOT GUARANTEE
THAT HE OR SHE CAN DO IT ALL OF THE TIME, ON DEMAND.
The issue is not whether a person can point, but whether he or she can do
so reliably, that is on demand, for multiple step tasks as well as
one-step ones. It is well known that there are neurological reasons other
than intellect to explain why multiple step tasks might be difficult for
people with developmental disabilities (see Kelso & Tuller, 1981; Miller,
1985; Maurer, 1992). Recent studies in the field of autism (e.g.
Courchesne, 1993; Bauman in ASA, 1993) as well as in spina bifida, Down
syndrome, Williams syndrome, Joubert syndrome, and hydrocephalus (see
Leiner et al, 1991; Ziegler, 1990; and Bordarier & Aicardi, 1990) identify
cerebellar abnormalities. It is known that the cerebellum plays an
important role in regulating complex motor tasks. The idea of facilitation
is to help individuals overcome particular difficulties with motor tasks.
Over time, with practice and with improved confidence, individuals are
expected to become able to type reliably, without a facilitator.
References
Arnold, R., Yule, W., & Martin, N. (1985). The psychological
characteristics of infantile hypercalcaemia: A preliminary investigation.
Developmental Medicine and Child Neurology, 27, 49-59.
ASA Editors (1993). An interview with Dr. Margaret Bauman,Advocate, 24
(4), 1 & 13-17.
Attwood, T. & Remington-Gurney, J. (1992). Assessment of literacyskills
using facilitated communication. In C.E. Van Kraayenoord (Ed.) A survey of
adult literacy provisions for people with intellectual disabilities.
Brisbane, QLD: University of Queensland, Schonnel Special Education
Research Centre.
Berger, C. (1992). Facilitated communication guide. Eugene, OR:New
Breakthroughs, Inc.
Biklen, D. (1990) Communication unbound: autism and praxis. Harvard
Educational Review, 60, 291-314.
Biklen, D. (1993) Communication Unbound. NY: Teacher's College Press.
Biklen, D., Saha, N. & Kliewer, C. (1995). How teachers confirm the
authorship of facilitated communication: A portfolio approach. Journal of
the Association for Persons with Severe Handicaps, 20(1), 45-56.
Bordarier, C. & Aicardi, J. (1990). Dandy-Walker syndrome and agenesis of
the cerebellar vermis: Diagnostic problems and genetic counselling.
Developmental Medicine and Child Neurology, 32, 285-294.
Botash, A., Babuts, D., Mitchell, N., O'Hara, M., Manuel, J. & Lynch, L.
(1994). Evaluations of children who have disclosed sexual abuse via
facilitated communication. Archives of Pediatric Adolescent Medicine, 148,
1282-1287.
Calculator, S. N. & Singer, K.M. Letter to the editor: Preliminary
validation of facilitated communication. Topics in Language Disorders, 12,
(4), ix-xvi.
Courchesne, E. "Cerebellar abnormalities in autism," presentation at the
annual convention of the Autism Society of America and the Autism Society
of Canada, Toronto, July 13, 1993.
Crossley, R. (1993). Facilitated communication training in North America:
Flying high on paper wings. International Exchange of Experts and
Information in Rehabilitation, Interchange.
Crossley, R. (1992) Getting the words out II: Case studies infacilitated
communication training. Topics in Language Disorders, 12, (4), 46-59.
Cummins, R. & Prior, M. (1992) Autism and assisted communication: A Reply
to Biklen. Harvard Educational Review, 62, (2), 228-241.
Eastham, M. (1992) Silent words. Ottawa: Oliver Pate.
Intellectual Disability Review Panel. (1989) Investigation into the
reliability and validity of the assisted communication technique.
Melbourne: Department of Community Services, Victoria.
Kelso, J.A.S., & Tuller, B. (1981). Toward a theory of apracticsyndromes.
Brain and Language, 12, 224-245.
L. v. Public Schools, No. 91-09, Final Order (Tennessee Department of
Education Due Process Hearing, June 28, 1991).
Leiner, H.C., Leiner, A.L., & Dow, R.S. (1991). The human cerebro-
cerebellar system: its computing, cognitive, and language skills.
Behavioral Brain Research, 44, 113-128.
Levinson, H.N. (1989). The cerebellar-vestibular predisposition to anxiety
disorders. Perceptual and Motor Skills, 68, 323-338.
In the Matter of Luz P, 92-07565, New York Supreme Court, Appellate
Division, Second Judicial Department, Opinion & Order, January 14, 1993
Martin, E. (July 31, 1993). Facilitation theory tested. The Times Herald
Record. Pages 1 & 18.
Maurer, R. (1992) The neurology of facilitated communication: Is autism a
motor disorder? Paper presented to the Autism Society of America meeting,
Albuquerque, NM.
Miller, N. (1985). Dyspraxia and its management. Rockville, MD: Aspen.
Nolan, C.(1987). Under the eye of the clock. New York: St. Martin's Press.
Oppenheim, R. (1974). Effective teaching methods for autistic children.
Springfield, IL: Charles C. Thomas.
Randall, G. (March 30, 1993). Disabled boy gives landmark testimony.
Wichita Eagle, Pages 1a & 5a.
Randall, G. (March 31, 1993). Live-in aide convicted of sexual abuse;
Autistic boy's allegations put communication method to test. Wichita
Eagle, Pages 1a & 8a.
Schawlow, Arthur T. & Schawlow, Aurelia L. (1985) The endless search for
help, in: M.F. Brady & P. Gunther, (Eds) Integrating Moderately and
Severely Handicapped Learners: Strategies that work (Springfield, IL,
Charles Thomas Publishing).
Schubert, A. & Biklen, D. (1993). Issues of influence: some concerns and
suggestions. Facilitated Communication Digest, 1, (3), 11-12.
Simon, E.W., Toll, D.M. & Whitehair, P.M. (1994). A naturalistic approach
to the validation of facilitated communication. Journal of Autism and
Developmental Disorders, 24 (5), 647-657.
Szempruch, J. & Jacobson, J.W. (1993). Evaluating facilitated
communications of people with developmental disabilities. Research in
Developmental Disabilities. 14, 253-264.
Vazquez, C.A. (1994). Brief report: A multitask controlled evaluation of
facilitated communication. Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders,
24 (3), 369-379.
Wheeler, D.L., Jacobson, J.W., Paglieri, R.A., & Schwartz, A.A. (1993). An
Experimental Assessment of Facilitated Communication. Mental Retardation,
31, (1), 49-60.
====(end included file)====
--
Martijn Dekker http://www.inlv.demon.nl/martijn/
mar...@inlv.demon.nl martijn...@spidernet.nl
ICQ#13344793 AIM: McDutchie PGP key-ID: 1FCBAD6D
Galiganinda Dulin
>. It is *not* about autism per se, but does contain a couple of items
>that might be of interest to some of you here. I take Brian with me
>backpacking, and put up a page and a couple of pictures on the subject
>of going into the wilderness with an autistic hiking buddy. If you are
>curious as to what eight days away from the road (and flush toilets) was
>like, check out my Uinta trip report on my main backpacking page also.
I'm curious about something - does he behave any differently while in the
wilderness/woods than while at home? Change in mood, for good or bad?
(curious mainly because of my own changes)
--
Galig Dulin "The web was woven curiously,
nigh...@netcom.com The charm is broken utterly,
Draw near and fear not -- this is I,
The Lady of Shalott" (Alfred, Lord Tennyson, 1832)
John M Price PhD
In article <martijn-0412...@inlv.demon.nl> Martijn Dekker <mar...@inlv.demon.nl> wrote:
: In article <3666bab4.0@calwebnnrp>, John M Price PhD <jmp...@calweb.com> wrote:
[snip]
: I was unimpressed by the little bit of information presented there.
Sure. It was mainly meant to associate the term Quackery with FC, as
indeed it is. That and to note that a medical fraud group of folks has
looked at it, and felt it belonged inthe 'things to avoid' pile.
: Besides, you are not providing people with a chance to read both sides of
: the story,
Nor is Biklen. Where is the Jacobson et al paper in the _American
Psychologist_?
which is why I'm posting the address of the Facilitated
: Communications Institute here <http://soeweb.syr.edu/thefci/> plus the
: following page from it, so that people can make up their own minds.
Well, this weekend I'll be putting up many more studies on this.
And I think Biklen does not really know what the term control means in a
scientific sense, but I'll refrain from a real decision on that.
The question remains the same. If this thing works, why has it failed so
badly in such a simple task as picture identification?
Frankly, I am pretty surprised that it still is even talked about. And
fearful that it is still in use. I'll bet, and sincerely hope, that once
Biklen is gone by retirement, move, death, or whatever, that Syracuse
University will close up shop on this. They can't now, for the same
reason John Mack is still at Harvard, irrespective of the lack of evidence
of visiting extraterrestials.
Then again, people still 'believe' in homeopathy too. And pay big buck
for distiled water labled as something different.
[snip]
--
John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or by finger!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683
"The best thing for being sad," replied Merlin, beginning to puff and
blow, "is to learn something. That's the only thing that never fails.
You may grow old and trembling in your anatomies, you may lie awake at
night listening to the disorder of your veins, you may miss your only
love, you may see the world about you devastated by evil lunatics, or
know your honour trampled in the sewers of baser minds. There is only
one thing for it then -- to learn. Learn why the world wags and what
wags it. That is the only thing which the mind can never exhaust,
never alienate, never be tortured by, never fear or distrust, and never
dream of regretting. Learning is the only thing for you. Look what a
lot of things there are to learn."
-- T.H. White, "The Once and Future King"
John M Price PhD
In article <3668341E...@w-link.net> Michael Lee Van Cleave <kathy...@w-link.net> wrote:
: *Sorry. I will do that. This is quackery, plain and simple. Pointing
: *out
: *the nature of this stuff is in the public interest. Just like others
: *do for homeopathy.
: I have two problems with this, the first one is that you are presuming
: to tell Mr. Golden and others who have been helped with this they don't
: know what they are talking about.
This is true.
Were you there? Did you know their
: children before? After? Probably not.
The issue, in fact, is not there at all. However, it may rely on the
differences between qualitative and quantitive research designs. This I
find troubling as the research conducted by these two basic styles should
agree. Here, they are as discrepent as night and day.
So how in the world can you
: tell him he is wrong?
The weight of the data on whether or not the communication is deriving
from the autist or his facilitator.
2nd. Are you also saying homeopathy is quackery?
: I disagree with you here also. A homeopathic doctor helped us
: tremendously with problems we had with our boys. When the other medical
: doctors would not listen and would not help.
Listen is the key here. Do you know how the medications are developed?
Do you know anything about the memory of water?
I can not begin to
: describe to you the frustration and anger I feel when things I have
: found helpful with my two have been called frauds or useless or such. My
: boys have come so very far. It makes me cry when I think of how things
: used to be, before we went with some of the unconventional thinking
: (unconventional at that time). All I can think about is how many other
: parents out there with children who might respond to this are not going
: to try it because of what this person said? All of us are different,
: all of our children are different. Many of these therapy's have
: subgroups of people who are helped, and people who are not helped. Why
: close the door on someone who might benefit?
People can do what ever the hell they want. They can, and do, pay lots
for distilled water with a homeopathic lable on the jar.
I will stiull tell them that it is distilled water.
Indeed, this is the basic need fro the use of the placebo in drug
research. People will become improved on the basis of belief, and belief
only. The key is to demonstrate the effectiveness over and above that
rate.
But with FC, the failure rate is such that it does not even need any
statistical analyses. Review the tape. It is amazing.
: *Why don't you read more about it?
: I have done reading on it.
Real empirical studies?
[snip]
: no doubt in my mind or in the minds of the other people in our lives who
: knew them before and after. So I really don't care what the
: professionals say anymore.
Actually, you shouldn't. You should go by the data, and read it in light
of the method used to collect it.
It does not pertain to our reality. Of
: course,
Pardon me?
I am stating that autists should demand, indeed as a basic human right,
the ability to communicate via an objectively verifiable method.
Otherwise, you are talking to the facilitator, not your son.
FC does not qualify. It does qualify as excellent wish fulfillment. It
does qualify as extra attention to the person involved, and that indeed is
beneficial. But as a communicative method? I think not.
not all that long ago according to the professionals autism was
: caused by cold hearted mothers.
Pretty much only the psychoanbalysts, and that idiot Bettleheim, who had a
degree in Art History, but was running the home. He was pretty much a
fraud anyway.
Not everything printed is true you
: know...either way.
I have to accept that the data presented are true. The discussion
sections, opinion. The methods extremely important.
All I want is for all parents to be encouraged to
: inform ourselves the best we can and use that knowledge along with our
: intimate knowledge of our children to help them however we can. With out
: being told do not try this, if we think it makes sense for our child.
: Or for people who have tried something that worked for their child not
: to be made to feel they are just imagining things are better. It is
: just wishful thinking, a placebo effect because other than God no one
: will ever know our children the way we do. Ever. Those that claim to
: presume too much.
: *I'd rather they use the resources for something other than a pipe
: *dream.
: Some of what I read was by parents who's only expenses for doing this
: was their typewriter, or computer and their time.
: The quacks are not the only ones out there trying to make a buck. The
: pharmaceutical companies make millions, (billions?) off their little
Billions.
: pills, of course they don't want you to think vitamins can help you.
: You can't patent and control them like the artificially created chemical
: compounds.
Hence the delay in getting lithium up and running for bipolar. Li+ is an
element of the earth's crust - can't be patented.
Can't hike up the prices to the point it ruins households
: who are trying to help a loved one who is ill. All business have their
: own agendas. Buyer beware.
: I will look at your web site but it will not convince me that parents do
: not know their children and do not know if this helps them or not.
Ok, your mind is closed. Don't bother then. It will simply have lists of
research and abstracts where available.
: While I am looking at your web site why don't you talk to some parents
: who have used this with success like Mr. Golden. Maybe meet their
: children. Go straight to the horses mouth.
--
John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or by finger!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683
There is nothing which can better deserve our patronage than the
promotion of science and literature. Knowledge is in every country
the surest basis of public happiness.
- George Washington, January 8, 1790
Gene Douglas
John M Price PhD wrote in message <3668a0ad.0@calwebnnrp>...
:sci.psychology.psychotherapy added as the discussion is ongoing there too. :: In article <3666bab4.0@calwebnnrp>, John M Price PhD
<jmp...@calweb.com> wrote:
:
:[snip]
:
cut
:
:which is why I'm posting the address of the Facilitated
:: Communications Institute here <http://soeweb.syr.edu/thefci/> plus the
:: following page from it, so that people can make up their own minds.
It might appear that one way to get around certain problems with FC is for
the facilitator not to look at the feedback. (paper, monitor, etc.) I'm
posting a page from the above site below.
cut
:
:[snip]
:
:--
:John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Facts About Facilitated Communication
Buzzard
> In article <366581DC...@prodigy.net>,
> Buzzard <Buzz...@prodigy.net> wrote:
> >I have a badly outdated web page at http://pages.prodigy.net/buzzards
> >. It is *not* about autism per se, but does contain a couple of items
> >that might be of interest to some of you here. I take Brian with me
> >backpacking, and put up a page and a couple of pictures on the subject
> >of going into the wilderness with an autistic hiking buddy. If you are
> >curious as to what eight days away from the road (and flush toilets) was
> >like, check out my Uinta trip report on my main backpacking page also.
>
> I'm curious about something - does he behave any differently while in the
> wilderness/woods than while at home? Change in mood, for good or bad?
>
> (curious mainly because of my own changes)
>
>
Good question, with a not so simple answer. Brian is still autistic on the
trail, still throws tantrums, etc..., but overall he is generally better
behaved. Like a lot of teenagers, he tends to gripe and moan(especially the
moan, since he does not talk) when the way is uphill, the trail is rocky, and
the pack is heavy. On at least one occasion, I had to push him up a
mountainside three feet at a time.
However, we have had some magical moments in the backcountry. Evening walks
around the lake after dinner....Off-trail rambles above timberline where you
could see 20 miles and no trace of man to be found, where Brian giggled and
almost skipped along...Starry nights watching meteors from the tent door when
BJ seemed to be almost in my world for and hour or so. I could go on, but I
hope you get the idea. Just as would have happened with an NT son, some of
my best memories with Brian are related to our wilderness times together. He
may be autistic, but first and foremost, he is my boy.
Lorin John
aka Buzzard
Galiganinda Dulin
>
>Go to:
>
>http://www.quackwatch.com
>
>go to the search area, and enter the terms facilitated communication
>
>Later, I think I'll collect a bunch of cites to place on my FTP site about
>the quackery involved here.
I went over to that website... sometimes it looked like it was doing a
lot of good by informing people about rip-offs or dangerous "medical"
treatments.
However, I found that it had a section on Irlen lenses, and that its
statements about them were misinformed. I agree they may be marketed too
widely, but the lenses themselves can greatly help people (like myself; I
can now do things I didn't know I /couldn't/ do before). And there have
been studies done that showed that they could be effective. Just like
the Irlen people themselves, it concentrates almost exclusively on reading.
This makes me wonder -- could it be the same with Facilitated
Communication? Could it be something that works in some circumstances
but is over-marketed? Could that website be scaring people off when they
might be the ones helped by it?
The other thing it said about Irlen lenses was that the price was in
excess of $500. Compared to procedures to even measure the neurological
factors involved (EEGs, etc) which are over $1000, it's nothing.
Oh well... I'm just afraid of what could happen if someone is turned away
from something before being really informed (both "sides" and everywhere
in between) about it.
Galiganinda Dulin
Buzzard <Buzz...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>Good question, with a not so simple answer. Brian is still autistic on the
>trail, still throws tantrums, etc..., but overall he is generally better
>behaved. Like a lot of teenagers, he tends to gripe and moan(especially the
>moan, since he does not talk) when the way is uphill, the trail is rocky, and
>the pack is heavy. On at least one occasion, I had to push him up a
>mountainside three feet at a time.
>However, we have had some magical moments in the backcountry. Evening walks
>around the lake after dinner....Off-trail rambles above timberline where you
>could see 20 miles and no trace of man to be found, where Brian giggled and
>almost skipped along...Starry nights watching meteors from the tent door when
>BJ seemed to be almost in my world for and hour or so. I could go on, but I
>hope you get the idea. Just as would have happened with an NT son, some of
>my best memories with Brian are related to our wilderness times together. He
>may be autistic, but first and foremost, he is my boy.
I asked since I looked at photographs of me in the woods as a child and
the expressions were more varied and "real" than most other photographs...
anark...@home.com
wrote:
> Just as would have happened with an NT son, some of
>my best memories with Brian are related to our wilderness times together. He
>may be autistic, but first and foremost, he is my boy.
>
>Lorin John
>aka Buzzard
>
Oh, now that is heartwarming. I get so tired of parents trying to
make over their children into the children they think they ought to
have. It's lovely to see a parent working with the person they have
as offspring and learning to love what is lovable there.
jenwolf
Dulin) wrote:
>This makes me wonder -- could it be the same with Facilitated
>Communication? Could it be something that works in some circumstances
>but is over-marketed? Could that website be scaring people off when they
>might be the ones helped by it?
>
>The other thing it said about Irlen lenses was that the price was in
>excess of $500. Compared to procedures to even measure the neurological
>factors involved (EEGs, etc) which are over $1000, it's nothing.
that's my main gripe about these types of things that some people
swear by and some people swear at -- the money involved. i think,
while the things/therapy in question may indeed help some people with
some things, it becomes a fraud when someone has to shell out
thousands of dollars for it. it becomes a quackery when you pay the
doctor hundreds/thousands of dollars and in return get a little bit of
common sense coaching. iow, it's not a new medical proceedure that
warrants over-charging and claims-of-cures.
so, it's a question every parent has to ask himself -- what kind of
service are you getting for the money you're spending? is it *really*
something which requires a doctor's supervision? or is it something
you could research and try on your own? or perhaps find someone who
might not be an MD, charge a lot less and give the same service?
claims of needing a medical specialist when really *not* necessary are
also signs of fraud/quackery. that's not saying said methods don't
work sometimes and for some things -- what it is saying is "buyer
beware."
========================
http://www.bigfoot.com/~jenwolf
========================
Gene Douglas
John M Price PhD wrote in message <3668aa1d.0@calwebnnrp>...
:In sci.psychology.psychotherapy Gene Douglas <gene...@prodigy.net> wrote:
:
:: John M Price PhD wrote in message <3668a0ad.0@calwebnnrp>...
:: :sci.psychology.psychotherapy added as the discussion is ongoing there
too.
:: :
:: :In article <martijn-0412...@inlv.demon.nl> Martijn Dekker
:: <mar...@inlv.demon.nl> wrote:
:: :: In article <3666bab4.0@calwebnnrp>, John M Price PhD
:: <jmp...@calweb.com> wrote:
:: :
:: :[snip]
:: :
:: cut
:: :
:: :which is why I'm posting the address of the Facilitated
:: :: Communications Institute here <http://soeweb.syr.edu/thefci/> plus
the
:: :: following page from it, so that people can make up their own minds.
:: :
:: It might appear that one way to get around certain problems with FC is
for
:: the facilitator not to look at the feedback. (paper, monitor, etc.)
I'm
:: posting a page from the above site below.
:This was done using sunglasses, and in the blind condition, they added
:cardboard cutouts.
:
:Blinded, they failed.
:
In that one experiment. But these people persist in advocating FC, despite
the "60 Minutes Expose." Does that suggest that they believe, from
experience, there are exceptional cases, and that the need is for refinement
of the process (such as the facilitator not viewing the feedback?)
The test involved the subject's viewing a picture, and the facilitator's
assisting in the usual way. Suppose for 100 subjects, the facilitators
helped by not looking, and say, 20 of them actually spelled things anyway?
(Or not, for that matter.)
Ian Molton
entirely sensible thing to do on a newsgroup...
--
-Ian aka Lennier
Acorn Computers, the best in the world
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hawk/
BaBe - Women's human rights organisation in Croatia
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hawk/babe/
True creativity comes from not being like everyone else. Aspie and proud of it.
John M Price PhD
In article <74bev6$5gks$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com> Gene Douglas <gene...@prodigy.net> wrote:
[snip]
: The simplest test, I would think, is to assure that a facilitator, who has
: been "successful" with a particular client, simply does not look at the
: feedback (paper, monitor, etc.)
Well, here's one.
5. (PsycINFO result)
Kerrin, Rosemary G.; Murdock, Jane Y.; Sharpton, William R.; Jones,
Nichelle.
Who's doing the pointing? Investigating facilitated communication in
a
classroom setting with students with autism.
Focus on Autism & Other Developmental Disabilities, 1998 Sum, v13
(n2):73-79.
Abstract: The first author, a certified speech-language pathologist (SLP),
served as the facilitator for two students with autism to assess
pointing
control during facilitated communication. The teacher instructed the
students during typical classroom activities, and two classroom
assistants
collected data. We used a counterbalanced alternating treatments
design
with the SLP/facilitator being either blind or sighted. She wore
sunglasses throughout the investigation with a cardboard cutout
inserted
for the blind condition. The alternating treatments data reveal that
the
students responded more accurately when the SLP/facilitator could see
in
spite of the fact that she did not think she was influencing their
responding and did not intentionally do so. ((c) 1998 APA/PsycINFO,
all
rights reserved).
--
John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or by finger!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683
Found in alt.atheism:
"He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy
from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent
that will reach to himself"
- Thomas Paine
John M Price PhD
: :: :sci.psychology.psychotherapy added as the discussion is ongoing there
: too.
: :: :
: :: :In article <martijn-0412...@inlv.demon.nl> Martijn Dekker
: :: <mar...@inlv.demon.nl> wrote:
: :: :: In article <3666bab4.0@calwebnnrp>, John M Price PhD
: :: <jmp...@calweb.com> wrote:
: :: :
: :: :[snip]
: :: :
: :: cut
: :: :
: :: :which is why I'm posting the address of the Facilitated
: :: :: Communications Institute here <http://soeweb.syr.edu/thefci/> plus
: the
: :: :: following page from it, so that people can make up their own minds.
: :: :
: :: It might appear that one way to get around certain problems with FC is
: for
: :: the facilitator not to look at the feedback. (paper, monitor, etc.)
: I'm
: :: posting a page from the above site below.
: :This was done using sunglasses, and in the blind condition, they added
: :cardboard cutouts.
: :
: :Blinded, they failed.
: :
: In that one experiment.
In absolutely huge numbers of experiments.
But these people persist in advocating FC, despite
: the "60 Minutes Expose."
Frontline, by the Documentary Consortium (I thnk). It was aired Oct 1993,
and can be ordered from them. See the PBS page:
Does that suggest that they believe, from
: experience, there are exceptional cases, and that the need is for refinement
: of the process (such as the facilitator not viewing the feedback?)
Actually, I think it is worse than that. At the academic level, Biklen is
arguing a times that this 'procedure' cannot be tested empirically, and
that 'qualitative' research supports his statements. Personally, I think
this says more about the lack of quality in the qualitative research
paradigms than anything else, and I have been looking into that realm much
more closely of late. Lots of red flags, like the 'researcher is the
instrument'. Personally, this is the best way to get biased results, but
I am still a bit of a novice in the area so I'll withhold final judgement.
: The test involved the subject's viewing a picture, and the facilitator's
: assisting in the usual way. Suppose for 100 subjects, the facilitators
: helped by not looking, and say, 20 of them actually spelled things anyway?
: (Or not, for that matter.)
Actually the problem is simpler. When shown divergent stimuli, the
facilitator only reported the stimulus he or she saw. Never the picture
the autist saw.
--
John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or by finger!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683
The only good thing ever to come out of religion was the music.
- George Carlin _Brain Droppings_
John M Price PhD
: the little picture of the BSD devil on your post was very cute, but not an
: entirely sensible thing to do on a newsgroup...
It is 941 bytes. I have text quotes that are larger, notably from Dave
Barry.
--
John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or by finger!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man.
- George Bernard Shaw
Mark Morin
> the little picture of the BSD devil on your post was very cute, but not an
> entirely sensible thing to do on a newsgroup...
>
Huh? I didn't see any graphic. Perhaps I needed a facilitator to see it.
mark
--
===========================================================
If I had only.....
forgotten future greatness and looked at the green things
and the buildings and reached out to those around me and
smelled the air and ignored the forms and the self-styled
obligations and heard the rain on the roof
.......and it's not too late
Hugh Prather
http://members.xoom.com/mmorin
Kimberly Barnard
1998 10:17:06 -0500, mmo...@PETERHOOD69idt.net, Mark Morin
says...
:Ian Molton wrote:
:
:> the little picture of the BSD devil on your post was very cute, but not an
:> entirely sensible thing to do on a newsgroup...
:>
:
:Huh? I didn't see any graphic. Perhaps I needed a facilitator to see it.
:
:mark
Here's what you missed, Mark:
begin 644 _devil.gif
M1TE&.#EA0`!``/(``/__`)HL10```):*V_\``/O[^P```````"'^'$YI8V]
L
M87,N4&EO8VA`+F5N<W0N9G*6BD`*([0`(?D$`0`````L`````$``0````_X
(
MNMS^,,I)J[WX!A&R_TX@#F#I!81H`NHJ#43:F=OL/K#\B$)OX['?;8'2$3>
"
MF-+8@+6&C&(+*:I:"1PAJ@J-
!GG9;?4;XT2M7>(W7&@K1;)W8`"7"8<Y;+7M
M3K6W2CU)<G=#28,!?`5;BH"#2W9I"SU!B@4QED607T^2&YB-
?J&;=IUI@QQ9
MBZ**2U9<D@LY@@,<ESZV?82%:46"2(<<=(F7KK"Q"GF"RUC+B9J<O%#0RZC
5
MJ\:F'B02T*35==G2%@/E$8^!4F7,D&@KY=P.I)KAI-
%0Y@WH9>WVNR7Y9,53
MX`W+DGWSCFT;F*R!KX."_.T:-
P%>DR8H$$HT6/Z*(H6``!BRR*@18L12>+B)
M)!A$(R5H[A8Z@+=RP3IT)6-F`"D09"<I[!)ZK-
B$!,UA,1CDL<=C3DJ:2ND@
M=9JL8$=D$$:4HYJLVB^%6(]HY6H595B,7[:>W*3S+,$Z<\`(!>LVY"N2Z.X
.
M10;G$:5H=.L>V??HKN`(GR`Y:WM8UE^VKQKC"`8YLF2'@7P`UB:YH%?&DFL
Q
M!6;F,N;1H$/[T\NY;A:-
K%^5(A"+'9)VL?6Z<F$;QA_;35F_V010`!\4;OBD
M2)'*QX9AN>N!,!XJD3$"NK`+N)!G>J:)V+$K+["=0OE!TZD?WU/D4G+WY5_
,
MZ?[!^&)B?\2'ET&^8CZMOWLYT$,FEI#GBB+QX4`')"M\E0L?28A@28(A9-
,+
A>6%(V$@/$"SE31?J%5@%A:=U9-D-&8YHVHHLMKAB`@`[
`
end
John M Price PhD
[snip the devil talk]
: Here's what you missed, Mark:
: begin 644 _devil.gif
: M1TE&.#EA0`!``/(``/__`)HL10```):*V_\``/O[^P```````"'^'$YI8V]
: L
: M87,N4&EO8VA`+F5N<W0N9G*6BD`*([0`(?D$`0`````L`````$``0````_X
: (
OUCH!!!!!
Carriage returns hurt uuencoding. Thye are all M at the begining because
that tells teh decoder how many bytes are in that line!
The devil is in the FTP site at:
ftp://ftp.calweb.com/users/j/jmprice/quotes/_devil.gif
--
John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or by finger!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683
I would defend the liberty of consenting adult creationists to practice
whatever intellectual perversions they like in the privacy of their own
homes, but it is necessary to protect the young and innocent.
- Arthur C. Clarke
Mark Morin
John M Price PhD (jmp...@calweb.com) wrote:
[...]: The devil is in the FTP site at:
: ftp://ftp.calweb.com/users/j/jmprice/quotes/_devil.gif
wrong address -- "Netscape is unable to find the file or directory named
[above]"smw
wrong format:
ftp://ftp.calweb.com/users/j/jmprice/quotes/_devil.uue
funny, it never came through here. Even on Kimberly's post, it showed up as a broken link. hmm
Nancy Stone
Gene Douglas wrote in message
<74bd45$13ci$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>...
snip
>In that one experiment. But these people persist in advocating FC, despite
>the "60 Minutes Expose." Does that suggest that they believe, from
>experience, there are exceptional cases, and that the need is for
refinement
>of the process (such as the facilitator not viewing the feedback?)
>
>The test involved the subject's viewing a picture, and the facilitator's
>assisting in the usual way. Suppose for 100 subjects, the facilitators
>helped by not looking, and say, 20 of them actually spelled things anyway?
>(Or not, for that matter.)
This is the point, Gene. The study on Frontline was done with the
facilitator unable to see the object -- only the client could see it. When
the facilitator was unable to see the picture, none of the clients were able
to identify any of the objects presented. None of them. Not one. Further,
when two different objects were presented to the client and facilitator, the
clients identified the objects presented to the facilitators, not the ones
they themselves saw. There were no successful trials for any client when the
facilitators could not see the objects the client saw. This situation does
not hold up the hope you suggest of some exceptional case being possible.
In addition to keeping the facilitator unaware of what object is being
presented (to make sure that the communication comes from the client), a
well-controlled study would carefully assess the autistic participants to
make sure that they are all autistic or mentally retarded as claimed. This
would be done because FC is a technique purported to work with people who
have severe mental disabilities that prevent them from being able to
communicate in other ways. If the people who participate in the experiment
are not disabled, then there is no miracle when they are able to type the
correct words. One problem with anecdotal or testimonial evidence is that
typically no prior assessment is made of the individual about whom a story
is told. So-called "high functioning" autistics may be capable of
"miraculous" things, as evidenced by the many stories told about their
accomplishments, but that doesn't mean they are correctly diagnosed as
autistic or representative of what might be expected for the majority of
autistic individuals.
As I have said here previously, I know several individuals in Mensa who have
very high IQs and are engaging in professional level jobs whose parents were
told in early childhood that their children were autistic or mentally
retarded. If I were to tell you about their current accomplishments, it
wouldn't mean that someone could join Mensa despite being severely disabled.
It would mean that some incompetent individual made a misdiagnosis. Just
because some pediatrician labels a child "autistic" at some stage in early
development, doesn't make a person autistic. Researchers are beginning to
pin down a variety of specific learning disabilities that selectively impair
cognitive abilities. This will result in catch-all terms being
differentiated and people being more accurately described, with more
appropriate interventions provided at a much younger age. My point is that
a valid test of FC begins with objective assessment of the participants by
someone unaware of the purposes of the assessment -- no testimonial provides
that assurance.
Nancy
John M Price PhD
Try:
ftp://ftp.calweb.com/users/j/jmprice/quotes/_devil.uue
In sci.psychology.psychotherapy Mark Morin <mmo...@PETERHOOD69idt.net> wrote:
: --------------A0C61401174BD9473DB7B62E
: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
: wrong format:
: ftp://ftp.calweb.com/users/j/jmprice/quotes/_devil.uue
: mark
: --------------A0C61401174BD9473DB7B62E
: Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
: <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
: <html>
: Silke-Maria Weineck wrote:
: <blockquote TYPE=CITE>John M Price PhD (jmp...@calweb.com) wrote:
: <br>[...]
: <p>: The devil is in the FTP site at:
: <p>: <a href="ftp://ftp.calweb.com/users/j/jmprice/quotes/_devil.gif">ftp://ftp.calweb.com/users/j/jmprice/quotes/_devil.gif</a>
: <p>wrong address -- "Netscape is unable to find the file or directory named
: <br>[above]"
: <p>smw</blockquote>
: <p><br>wrong format:
: <br><a href="ftp://ftp.calweb.com/users/j/jmprice/quotes/_devil.gif">ftp://ftp.calweb.com/users/j/jmprice/quotes/_devil.uue</a><a href="ftp://ftp.calweb.com/users/j/jmprice/quotes/_devil.gif"></a>
: <p>funny, it never came through here. Even on Kimberly's post, it
: showed up as a broken link. hmm
: <p>mark
: <p>--
: <br>===========================================================
: <br> If I had only.....
: <br>forgotten future greatness and looked at the green things
: <br>and the buildings and reached out to those around me and
: <br>smelled the air and ignored the forms and the self-styled
: <br>obligations and heard the rain on the roof
: <br> .......and it's not too late
: <br>
: Hugh Prather
: <br><A HREF="http://members.xoom.com/mmorin">http://members.xoom.com/mmorin</A>
: <br> </html>
: --------------A0C61401174BD9473DB7B62E--
--
John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or by finger!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683
'Twas the Night before Crisis
'Twas the night before crisis, and all through the house,
Not a program was working not even a browse.
The programmers were wrung out too mindless to care,
Knowing chances of cutover hadn't a prayer.
The users were nestled all snug in their beds,
While visions of inquiries danced in their heads.
When out in the lobby there arose such a clatter,
I sprang from my tube to see what was the matter.
And what to my wondering eyes should appear,
But a Super Programmer, oblivious to fear.
More rapid than eagles, his programs they came,
And he whistled and shouted and called them by name;
On Update! On Add! On Inquiry! On Delete!
On Batch Jobs! On Closing! On Functions Complete!
His eyes were glazed over, his fingers were lean,
From Weekends and nights in front of a screen.
A wink of his eye, and a twist of his head,
Soon gave me to know I had nothing to dread...
Ian Molton
Kimberly Barnard <barn...@uwp.edu> wrote:
> Here's what you missed, Mark:
Argh! bandwidth, bandwidth!
some people pay per minuite for this stuff!!!
John M Price PhD
original 941 byte sig.
Happy? Of course you are paying both ways....
Even happier I guess.
In sci.psychology.psychotherapy Ian Molton <mh12...@cr10m.staffs.ac.uk> wrote:
: In article <MPG.10d30ecdd...@news.alpha.net>,
: Kimberly Barnard <barn...@uwp.edu> wrote:
: Argh! bandwidth, bandwidth!
--
John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or by finger!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683
Barbara "remember, bridge is like sex -- if you don't have a good
partner, you'd better have a good hand" Mikkelson
(left in original afu format)
Gene Douglas
John M Price PhD wrote in message <36695098.0@calwebnnrp>... :: John M Price PhD wrote in message <3668aa1d.0@calwebnnrp>... :: :: John M Price PhD wrote in message <3668a0ad.0@calwebnnrp>...
:: :: :sci.psychology.psychotherapy added as the discussion is ongoing
there
:: too.
:: :: :
:: :: :In article <martijn-0412...@inlv.demon.nl> Martijn Dekker
:: :: <mar...@inlv.demon.nl> wrote:
:: :: :: In article <3666bab4.0@calwebnnrp>, John M Price PhD
:: :: <jmp...@calweb.com> wrote:
:: :: :
:: :: :[snip]
:: :: :
:: :: cut
:: :: :
:: :: :which is why I'm posting the address of the Facilitated
:: :: :: Communications Institute here <http://soeweb.syr.edu/thefci/>
plus
:: the
cut
:
:: The test involved the subject's viewing a picture, and the facilitator's
:: assisting in the usual way. Suppose for 100 subjects, the facilitators
:: helped by not looking, and say, 20 of them actually spelled things
anyway?
:: (Or not, for that matter.)
:
:Actually the problem is simpler. When shown divergent stimuli, the
:facilitator only reported the stimulus he or she saw. Never the picture
:the autist saw.
:
Again playing the devil's advocate, suppose those were cases in which the
facilitator was experiencing a Ouija board effect. And suppose there are
cases in which the process works, explaining the proponents' support in the
face of apparent disproof. Then if the variable is whether the facilitator
can see the feed back (the writing) then there would be exceptional cases in
which it would be hard to say that the data is coming from the facilitator
(or not.)
John M Price PhD
[ Article reposted from sci.psychology.psychotherapy ]
[ Author was Nancy Stone <dans...@earthlink.net> ]
[ Posted on Sat, 5 Dec 1998 09:06:44 -0000 ]
Gene Douglas wrote in message
<74bev6$5gks$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>...
>
snip
This is akin
>to
> :suggesting that if gravity exists in the lab, perhaps it doesn't exist on
> :the corner of Broadway and 42nd Street in New York, or in Ogden Utah.
>
>On the other hand, if there were even a single instance where it did not...
>In the middle ages, did anybody suspect that gravity would not exist (or
>exist with effect) in outer space?
Gravity does exist in outer space. Gravity comes from the attraction of
bodies and is related to their mass and distance from each other. It is the
proximity of such bodies that is missing in outer space because we are at an
increased distance away from the earth. If gravity did not exist in outer
space, the sun would not keep the earth in its orbit.
>The simplest test, I would think, is to assure that a facilitator, who has
>been "successful" with a particular client, simply does not look at the
>feedback (paper, monitor, etc.)
This is what was done. When the facilitator doesn't look, FC doesn't work.
>
>Hmm. Suggests another "test." Suppose the subject would suggest something
>that the facilitator doesn't know, such as the fact that somebody bought a
>camcorder?
Exactly. This is the kind of thing that has been done. When the
facilitator doesn't know the answer, FC doesn't work.
> :
> :Consider the case of children who are born deaf. They too have
difficulty
> :finding some means of expression while their cognitive capacities are
> :otherwise intact. If autism were a similar disability, autistic children
> :could be taught to use sign language or pointing devices unaided.
>
>Some of them can't move their hands. That's why the would "need" the
>facilitators.
>
Autism doesn't impair the ability to move one's hands or tongue. It is not
a form of paralysis or palsy. It impairs the ability to cognitively direct
one's hands in a meaningful way. Autistic individuals typically have near
normal performance SB IQ test scores combined with very low (near 0) verbal
scores. Autistic individuals can do things like complete mazes or arrange
pieces to match patterns, but cannot arrange pictures in a sequence to tell
a story. In contrast, other mentally retarded individuals have similarly
depressed IQ scores on both scales (not as high performance scores and not
as low verbal scores as autistic persons). This pattern of difference
suggests that autistics are selectively impaired -- that some cognitive
processes are affected while others are not. This was part of my point.
How would guiding someone's hand resolve the impairment of those cognitive
functions involved in recognizing meaning and using language to convey
meaning? FC proponents suggest that the cognitive abilities are not
impaired at all -- just the expressive function. If there were a single
area of the brain devoted to expression, that might be reasonable, but there
is no such area. Autistic persons show the same impairments when a task
requires them to interpret meaning but respond in non-expressive ways as
they do in more explicit tasks.
>The idea
> :is that touching somehow organizes expressive capabilities otherwise
> :inaccessible. When autistic children are given access via FC they
> :miraculously have the capacity to understand spoken language and use
>written
> :language (among other things). The idea is that they have somehow been
>able
> :to passively absorb these through their peripheral position as disabled
> :individuals, largely without formal training. Yet hearing/speaking
>children
> :who are born to deaf but signing parents are unable to acquire spoken
> :language, even with daily exposure to hours to television.
>
>I'm not arguing for FC, but it's not the same thing. The deaf children
>couldn't acquire something they couldn't hear. Even hearing people who
>become profoundly deaf lose their ability to speak clearly, because they
>can't hear feedback from their own voices.
>
Gene, read the paragraph again. I was discussing hear/speaking children,
not deaf children. The parents are deaf so their children are not spoken to
and do not interact with the parents using spoken language (just signing).
My point is that these hearing/speaking children still do not pick up spoken
language from the TV or from passive exposure to it. From this we know that
experience is crucial to language development, even where innate language
capacities are unimpaired.
> This happens
> :because interactive use of language, with feedback, is required to
acquire
> :communicative skills. It is true that many children learn to read on
>their
> :own, but they also speak and interact with others using language for
years
> :before reading. Our capacity for language is innate but requires
>experience
> :in order to be realized.
> :
>There's the potential for argument that autistics, or some of them, have a
>kind of genius. Some potentials being biologically neglected, and all of
>their ability is concentrated in another ability. Just an aside, but I
have
>a client who suspects that she is autistic. (Perhaps more like
>Aspberger's.) She draws SSI for some sort of learning disability. I
handed
>her a sheet of paper covered with my bad handwriting, she glanced at it for
>less than a second, and told me that a word was misspelled. I looked, and
>there in the middle of the sheet, she was right.
As I describe earlier, there is no evidence of this. Autistic savants have
been studied. Their abilities are largely due to: (a) sparing of some
cognitive functions related to their area of performance, (b) extensive
practice of the area of talent, (c) lack of distraction by things normal
individuals must attend to or be involved with, and (d) overlooking of the
imperfections in the performance and exaggeration of the level of
competence. Anyone can teach themselves to do the things autistic savants
do, with the same amount of practice and focused attention. This has been
demonstrated by existence of people with the same skills combined with
normal abilities, and by studies in which someone deliberately set out to
acquire the same skill.
The anecdote you describe has several problematic features. First, the
woman is diagnosing herself as autistic. Believing oneself to be autistic
doesn't make it true. Second, having a specific learning disability doesn't
make someone autistic. Third, pointing to a misspelled word on a page isn't
a very startling accomplishment. You seem to imply that she read or scanned
the entire page. More likely, she just happened to notice the error and
point it out. Were there no other spelling errors on the page? Did you
check for them (someone who spells something wrong in the first place isn't
the best person to check for errors)? Could she do the same thing with other
pages of writing quickly glanced at? Is it even a remarkable thing? Any of
us can complete a task that involves scanning words and picking out typos or
errors. This is fully consistent with what autistic individuals can do too.
Spelling does not require them to know the meanings of words. Their
impairment is semantic, not concerned with the form or shape of words.
Autistics can repeat back strings of words, memorize whole paragraphs, yet
not be able to tell you what the words mean or what happened in the
paragraph they have memorized. When one is not distracted by reading
meanings, it is unsurprising that ability to scan for typos might be
enhanced. But both autistic and normal individuals can recognize spelling
errors in a page of handwriting. Doing so doesn't prove that someone is
autistic.
You are a mental health professional and yet you find such anecdotes
convincing. There is little wonder that parents would too. Scientific
methods exist to protect people from their own credulity. It is a
disciplined way of evaluating evidence that strives to prevent wrong
judgment. People must work very hard to explain away the warnings that
scientific evaluations have raised about FC. You might ask yourself why
everyone is working so hard to preserve this belief.
snip
>
>Again, I'm not arguing for FC, but suppose a person is hearing and
>listening, as well as observing people's behavior in response to their
>speech. Wouldn't that be different from being locked in a closet?
Of course it would. But, the person who is hearing and listening but not
speaking is not going to acquire language use at the same level as someone
who interacts. That was the point of my example of the hearing/speaking
child of deaf parents who is exposed to TV. TV gives the opportunity to
hear and listen but not interact. The result is that the child cannot speak
despite the TV. Someone with autism, who does not use language to interact
with others no matter how much language is directed at them, is not having
an experience that would permit the kind of fully developed language skills
displayed under facilitation. If you take a French class and sit in it
daily watching the teacher, reading the book, and listening to the other
students practice, but you never try to form sentences yourself and never
try to communicate with others in the class, you will be unable to speak
French at the end of that class.
snip
>
>Speaking as a devil's advocate, it is as if they had been mentally
>responding in that way all along.
>
My point exactly. If they had been mentally responding all along, just
waiting for a way to show others that their mental faculties are present,
why did they never behave in a way that showed such an understanding? Why
did they not develop on their own any alternative way of communicating, as
deaf children do? Why are they able to do those tasks that require
performance (mazes and other puzzles) but nothing that demonstrates
interpreted meaning? Why are they unable to respond to requests that ask
them to walk across the room if the answer to this question is "yes" or some
such?
A better question is why FC affects those with widely different mental
disabilities in the same manner. Why does FC produce the same improvement
in people with autism as people who are mentally retarded, when there is not
the same selective impairment in those who are mentally retarded? There is
no reasonable interpretation of spared mental capacity for individuals with
various forms of retardation as there might be with austic children. Why
are many autistic and retarded individuals able to speak and yet show no
recovery of mental function when touched in other ways, such as when hugged
or when sitting on someone's lap? The improvement only comes with actual
guiding, which implies the ability to influence.
John also mentions a global improvement in behavior noted by some parents.
He suggests that this might be due to the increased attention provided by
the facilitator. I agree with that. A proper control for that would be to
provide the same intensive one-on-one relationship without the guiding.
Another important control would be to have someone objective record
behavior -- not just rely on the self-reports of the parents about how the
child's behavior has improved. Parents are notoriously poor at describing
their children's behavior, as has been shown repeatedly in the developmental
literature where parent reports and in-the-home observations of the same
behavior are directly compared.
snip
> :I once read a doctoral dissertation describing a family that colluded in
> :maintaining the fantasy that its severely retarded daughter was normal.
> :Each member of the family interpreted the child's non-speech noises as
> :conversation.
>
>This is an aside, but sometimes it's hard to tell. My mother can
understand
>baby talk. After she has interpreted, when the baby says it again, you
know
Yes, that's why I described the noises as non-speech. This child was not
attempting to speak and could not speak. Babies are attempting to form
words even if they don't have the ability to articulate clearly yet. For
example, this child was not involved in any ongoing conversation at
mealtimes, but if she made a noise, someone at the table would respond to
her as if she had contributed to the discussion. That is not the same as a
child pointing to the cookies and grunting, and the mom saying "Mary wants a
cookie." That child has communicated. I am talking about a situation where
someone says, "I think President Clinton lied and should be impeached," the
child grunts, and someone else says, "You're right, Mary, the man is an old
reprobate." The dissertation had transcripts of such sessions (the one here
is obviously made up as an illustration).
>that's what he is saying. (And asking him 32 years later, he can verify
>this. Well, just kidding.) I once knew a college student who was
>profoundly disabled, and her speech sounded like Stephen Hawking's speech.
>To me it just sounded like grunting and moaning. I had a friend who could
>understand her perfectly.
Stephen Hawking is not cognitively disabled. He has ALS (Lou Gehrig's
disease) which progressively impairs motor control. A child who is mentally
retarded is cognitively impaired and cannot use words because the underlying
processes are not working, not because she lacks the motor control to form
words. Someone with a stroke might have both difficulties. The motor
control might be impaired and the underlying processes might be impaired, or
perhaps just the motor control is damaged. It is not always possible to
tell what has been harmed and what spared, but there are some tests.
Similarly, you can tell the difference between a motor deficit and a mental
disability by noticing what other things the child can or cannot do.
snip
>My original post was that this would be easy to test, other than the type
of
>test that has already been done. And one might get to the bottom of why
>those people are still standing by it.
You continue to miss the point that many, many such tests have already been
done. The people who are standing by FC are ignoring those results. It
takes no imagination at all to understand why. My difficulty is
understanding why professors and mental health experts are standing by it.
These are people who should know better.
Nancy
--
John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or by finger!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
Gene Douglas
Nancy Stone wrote in message <74bloi$h11$1...@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
:
:Gene Douglas wrote in message
:<74bd45$13ci$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>...
:
:snip
:
:>In that one experiment. But these people persist in advocating FC,
despite
:>the "60 Minutes Expose." Does that suggest that they believe, from
:>experience, there are exceptional cases, and that the need is for
:refinement
:>of the process (such as the facilitator not viewing the feedback?)
:>The test involved the subject's viewing a picture, and the facilitator's
:>assisting in the usual way. Suppose for 100 subjects, the facilitators
:>helped by not looking, and say, 20 of them actually spelled things
anyway?
:>(Or not, for that matter.)
:
:
:facilitator unable to see the object -- only the client could see it.
That's my point. I'm speaking of seeing the feedback (the writing.) See my
reply to JP.
When
:the facilitator was unable to see the picture, none of the clients were
able
:to identify any of the objects presented. None of them. Not one.
I wonder if they studied 5, or 50, or 100?
Further,
:when two different objects were presented to the client and facilitator,
the
:clients identified the objects presented to the facilitators, not the ones
:they themselves saw. There were no successful trials for any client when
the
:facilitators could not see the objects the client saw. This situation
does
:not hold up the hope you suggest of some exceptional case being possible.
I'm concerned with expressed support, even 5 years later. Why haven't these
guys just gone away?
:
cut
So-called "high functioning" autistics may be capable of
:"miraculous" things, as evidenced by the many stories told about their
:accomplishments, but that doesn't mean they are correctly diagnosed as
:autistic or representative of what might be expected for the majority of
:autistic individuals.
:
You may be speaking of the "Rain Man" types. I've never given thought to
whether the profoundly affected ones, unable to move their arms easily, and
swinging their heads upward with their mouths open, were of the same sort as
those who move about independently and carry on discussions. I simply
assumed there were people who were in the business, so to speak, and who had
exacting criterea for diagnosis.
:As I have said here previously, I know several individuals in Mensa who
have
:very high IQs and are engaging in professional level jobs whose parents
were
:told in early childhood that their children were autistic or mentally
:retarded.
I think that includes Winston Churchill and Thomas Edison.
If I were to tell you about their current accomplishments, it
:wouldn't mean that someone could join Mensa despite being severely
disabled.
:It would mean that some incompetent individual made a misdiagnosis. Just
:because some pediatrician labels a child "autistic" at some stage in early
:development, doesn't make a person autistic. Researchers are beginning to
:pin down a variety of specific learning disabilities that selectively
impair
:cognitive abilities. This will result in catch-all terms being
:differentiated and people being more accurately described, with more
:appropriate interventions provided at a much younger age. My point is
that
:a valid test of FC begins with objective assessment of the participants by
:someone unaware of the purposes of the assessment -- no testimonial
provides
:that assurance.
:
:Nancy
:
If a clear yes-no on autism isn't available, then perhaps a precise
categorization of types would be possible, such that it wouldn't be
necessary to say for a fact whether they all properly qualify for the same
general label.
Gene Douglas
Three people are involved, and nobody feels like he is causing the marker to
move. The experience is more like feeling that it is being pulled away from
you.
John M Price PhD wrote in message <36694f3b.0@calwebnnrp>...
:asa added
:
:In article <74bev6$5gks$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com> Gene Douglas
<gene...@prodigy.net> wrote:
:[snip]
:
:: The simplest test, I would think, is to assure that a facilitator, who
has
:: been "successful" with a particular client, simply does not look at the
:: feedback (paper, monitor, etc.)
:
:Well, here's one.
:
: 5. (PsycINFO result)
: Kerrin, Rosemary G.; Murdock, Jane Y.; Sharpton, William R.; Jones,
: Nichelle.
: Who's doing the pointing? Investigating facilitated communication in
:a
: classroom setting with students with autism.
: Focus on Autism & Other Developmental Disabilities, 1998 Sum, v13
: (n2):73-79.
:
:Abstract: The first author, a certified speech-language pathologist (SLP),
: served as the facilitator for two students with autism to assess
:pointing
: control during facilitated communication. The teacher instructed the
: students during typical classroom activities, and two classroom
:assistants
: collected data. We used a counterbalanced alternating treatments
:design
: with the SLP/facilitator being either blind or sighted. She wore
: sunglasses throughout the investigation with a cardboard cutout
:inserted
: for the blind condition. The alternating treatments data reveal that
:the
: students responded more accurately when the SLP/facilitator could see
:in
: spite of the fact that she did not think she was influencing their
: responding and did not intentionally do so. ((c) 1998 APA/PsycINFO,
:all
: rights reserved).
Ian Molton
Silke-Maria Weineck <sm...@umich.edu> wrote:
> ftp://ftp.calweb.com/users/j/jmprice/quotes/_devil.gif
> wrong address -- "Netscape is unable to find the file or directory named
> [above]"
it would appear to be _devil.uue
Rachel Fine
wrote:
>You may be speaking of the "Rain Man" types. I've never given thought
to
>whether the profoundly affected ones, unable to move their arms easily,
and
>swinging their heads upward with their mouths open, were of the same
sort as
>those who move about independently and carry on discussions. I simply
>assumed there were people who were in the business, so to speak, and who
had
>exacting criterea for diagnosis.
I think you misunderstand autism. Spasticity is not part of the autistic
spectrum; if there is spasticity, then there is something else going on
as well as autism. Stereotyped movements are not an *inability* to move
muscles.
Actually, what you are describing above appears to be related more to
profound mental retardation than to autism. The two are not the same.
Rachel
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
ToddToad
>>
>>Go to:
>>
>>http://www.quackwatch.com
>>
>>go to the search area, and enter the terms facilitated communication
>
>Besides, you are not providing people with a chance to read both sides of
>the story, which is why I'm posting the address of the Facilitated
>
Not long ago, the Quackwatch website listed one of the most eminent and
well-respected physicians treating allergies in autism - I think it was Dr.
William Shaw? - and after being embarrassed, the quackwatcher was forced to
drop his name from the site.
Don't believe even half of what you see at the website. Go to the FC Institute
website if you want to learn about FC, just like Martijn said.
MoSaic
from FC to independant typing.
Admittedly, they represent a very small percentage of those who (seem
to) start to communicate using FC-- but they *do* exist.
- MoSaic (playing devil's advocate)
Michael Lee Van Cleave
> : *Sorry. I will do that. This is quackery, plain and simple. Pointing
> : *out
> : *the nature of this stuff is in the public interest. Just like others
> : *do for homeopathy.
: I have two problems with this, the first one is that you are
presuming
: to tell Mr. Golden and others who have been helped with this they
don't
: know what they are talking about.
> This is true.
Thanks, that tells me all I need to know. You don't believe parents
know their children unless data supports it. Hmmm Do you have
children?
: I will look at your web site but it will not convince me that parents
: do not know their children and do not know if this helps them or not.
>Ok, your mind is closed. Don't bother then.
A case of the pot calling the kettle black.
:Some of those helped us,
: no doubt in my mind or in the minds of the other people in our lives
: who knew them before and after. So I really don't care what the
: professionals say anymore.
>Actually, you shouldn't. You should go by the data, and read it in >light
>of the method used to collect it.
I don't need data or anyone's interpretation of that data to tell me if
my kids are doing better and neither do most other parents.
:It does not pertain to our reality.
>Pardon me?
Our children ARE the reality! Not anything any professional says, or any
study done and interpreted by mere mortals.
Science has been proven wrong on too many occasions to put blind faith
in it either. Scientists also make mistakes, have egos to stroke, names
to get published, funding to acquire. They do not have all the answers,
and never will. Every week on TV you can be told about new scientific
studies that say this or that. Next year another study comes out just
the opposite. This is good for you....no its bad for you....wait it
might be good for you...oops!, nope, it's bad for you...on the other
hand...
Gene Douglas
MoSaic wrote in message <36699fd2...@news.alphalink.com.au>...
:If all FC is quackery-- please explain those individuals who progress
Perhaps that would indicate that, if the persons were not autistic, then FC
has some usefulness for other disabilities.
Gene Douglas
Rachel Fine wrote in message <19981205.093833...@juno.com>...
:On Sat, 5 Dec 1998 12:32:50 -0600, "Gene Douglas" <gene...@prodigy.net>
:wrote:
:
:>You may be speaking of the "Rain Man" types. I've never given thought
:to
:>whether the profoundly affected ones, unable to move their arms easily,
:and
:>swinging their heads upward with their mouths open, were of the same
:sort as
:>those who move about independently and carry on discussions. I simply
:>assumed there were people who were in the business, so to speak, and who
:had
:>exacting criterea for diagnosis.
:
:I think you misunderstand autism. Spasticity is not part of the autistic
:spectrum; if there is spasticity, then there is something else going on
:as well as autism. Stereotyped movements are not an *inability* to move
:muscles.
:
:Actually, what you are describing above appears to be related more to
:profound mental retardation than to autism. The two are not the same.
:
:Rachel
In the Frontline production, some of those shown weren't even looking at the
monitor or the keyboard. They were leaning backward with heads turned to
the side, arms contorted, and apparently ignoring the activity.
Mark Morin
> Thanks, that tells me all I need to know. You don't believe parents
> know their children unless data supports it. Hmmm Do you have
> children?
This isn't what John said. There is a difference between "knowing your child"
and knowing what that child is thinking at a particular moment. That's true
whether the child is autistic or not.
[...]
> I don't need data or anyone's interpretation of that data to tell me if
> my kids are doing better and neither do most other parents.
Your kids are doing better? Great! Autistic children can impose great stress
on a family (as well as bring joys) so any improvement is to be heralded.
Question? Was that improvement causally linked to what your child communicated
through the facilitator? Or, if my hunch is correct, did the process of
facilitation help to strenghthen the bonds between you and your child? If it
was the latter, the content of what your child "said" is fairly
irrelevant--what is important is that you believed you were in communication
with your child and your relationship grew.
We don't need data to tell us that.
What we do need data for is to support the claim that the content of the
messages that are being facilitated is actually accurate. many times the
content is irrelevant but what if your child were to start "telling" you
stories of abuse? Wouldn't you want some type of evidence that such
communication was actually possible.
There is absolutely no empirical, controlled study that says that the content
of what is "said" comes from the autistic child. NONE.
That does not mean that you do not know your child. Possibly the types of
things you thought you knew will be inaccurate but that which is important, you
will know and you will know it with or without facilitation.
Mark Morin
> If all FC is quackery-- please explain those individuals who progress
> from FC to independant typing.
>
> Admittedly, they represent a very small percentage of those who (seem
> to) start to communicate using FC-- but they *do* exist.
>
> - MoSaic (playing devil's advocate)
Do you have a citation? None of these cases showed up in the literature
I reviewed.
John M Price PhD
[snip]
: itself, is not a remarkable achievement. With patience, you can teach a
: chicken to type, but you cannot teach it to read what it has written. What
Don't know about chickens, but pigeons certainly. Skinner did pretty much
that IIRC. Ping-pong too, missile guidence as well.
But pigeons won't run mazed and rats won't type at all.
--
John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or by finger!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683
One trend that bothers me is the glorification of stupidity, that the media
is reassuring people it's alright not to know anything. That to me is far
more dangerous than a little pornography on the Internet.
- Carl Sagan
John M Price PhD
: asa added
: In article <74bev6$5gks$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com> Gene Douglas <gene...@prodigy.net> wrote:
: [snip]
: : The simplest test, I would think, is to assure that a facilitator, who has
: : been "successful" with a particular client, simply does not look at the
: : feedback (paper, monitor, etc.)
: Well, here's one.
Here's another:
Author: Beck AR; Pirovano CM.
Address: Illinois State University, USA.
Title: Facilitated communicators' performance on a task of
receptive
language.
Journal: Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders, 1996 Oct,
26(5):497-512.
Unique ID: 97062713.
Language: English.
Subset: Health; MEDLINE.
Databank: MED/97062713.
Subject: Adolescence.
Adult.
Autism, Infantile.
Child.
*Communication Aids for Disabled.
Comparative Study.
Female.
Human.
*Language Disorders -- rehabilinguage Disorders --
rehabilitation.
Male.
Mental Retardation.
*Speech Therapy.
Abstract: Most controlled studies of facilitated communication (FC) have
not
validated it. One task, however, on which positive effects of FC have
been
demonstrated without facilitator influence is the Peabody Picture
Vocabulary Test-R (PPVT-R). The present study investigated if the use
of FC
could be validated for either a group of subjects with autism or a
group
with severe to profound cognitive impairments, on the PPVT-R when
facilitators were effectively screened from all visual and auditory
stimuli. Additionally, the effect of mode of input-auditory or
visual-on
subjects' performance was investigated. Results did not validate the
use of
FC for the administration of the PPVT-R nor did they show any notable
advantage of one mode of input over another.
28. (MEDLINE result)
A
--
John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or by finger!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683
... to abandon [science] with its skeptical protocols, is the pathway to a
dark age.
- Carl Sagan on Nova discussing alien abduction and psychotherapists
01Apr97 - PBS
Gene Douglas
John M Price PhD wrote in message <3669c16c.0@calwebnnrp>...
:In article <74cb8d$klt$1...@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Nancy Stone
<dans...@earthlink.net> wrote:
:[snip]
:
:: itself, is not a remarkable achievement. With patience, you can teach a
:: chicken to type, but you cannot teach it to read what it has written.
What
:
:Don't know about chickens, but pigeons certainly. Skinner did pretty much
:that IIRC. Ping-pong too, missile guidence as well.
:
:But pigeons won't run mazed and rats won't type at all.
Well, perhaps with a word processor, and a bit of food after each letter.
:
:--
:John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
:Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or by finger!
: Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
:Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683
:
:One trend that bothers me is the glorification of stupidity, that the
media
:is reassuring people it's alright not to know anything. That to me is far
:more dangerous than a little pornography on the Internet.
: - Carl Sagan
:
Actually, we pay tribute to people for just about everythig else; beauty,
strength, athletic ability, money, playing rock and roll music. Why
shouldn't be honor people for being stupid,
for a change? They deserve their day in the sun, like anybody else.
John M Price PhD
: John M Price PhD wrote in message <3669c16c.0@calwebnnrp>...
[snip]
: :
: :One trend that bothers me is the glorification of stupidity, that the
: media
: :is reassuring people it's alright not to know anything. That to me is far
: :more dangerous than a little pornography on the Internet.
: : - Carl Sagan
: :
: Actually, we pay tribute to people for just about everythig else; beauty,
: strength, athletic ability, money, playing rock and roll music. Why
: shouldn't be honor people for being stupid,
: for a change? They deserve their day in the sun, like anybody else.
Watched Ken Starr lately? Or any politician?
--
John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or by finger!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683
And the real world's all we've got. Believers in the supernatural claim to
have special wisdom about the world. But real wisdom means knowing truth
from falsehood, knowing the difference between evidence and wishful
thinking. Yes, the real world is mysterious and sometimes frightening. But
would the supernatural make it better? The real world has beauty, poetry,
love and the joy of honest discovery. Isn't that enough?
- John Stossel
John M Price PhD
: >>You should write it off.
: >>
: >>Go to:
: >>
: >>http://www.quackwatch.com
: >>
: >>go to the search area, and enter the terms facilitated communication
: >
: >I was unimpressed by the little bit of information presented there.
: >Besides, you are not providing people with a chance to read both sides of
: >the story, which is why I'm posting the address of the Facilitated
: >Communications Institute here <http://soeweb.syr.edu/thefci/> plus the
: >following page from it, so that people can make up their own minds.
: >
: >- Martijn
: Not long ago, the Quackwatch website listed one of the most eminent and
: well-respected physicians treating allergies in autism - I think it was Dr.
: William Shaw? - and after being embarrassed, the quackwatcher was forced to
: drop his name from the site.
Actually, I think this speaks highly of the site. They corrected an
error.
: Don't believe even half of what you see at the website. Go to the FC Institute
: website if you want to learn about FC, just like Martijn said.
Don't ever expect Biklen to correct his error.
And that 'interpretor' crap from a recent article is just that.
Get ten Spanish interpretors in a room, and you'll *not* get ten
'interpretations' of the verbal output.
Get real, ferchrissakes.
--
John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or by finger!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683
Here I sit, broken-hearted,
All logged in, but work unstarted.
First net.this and net.that,
And a hot buttered bun for net.fat.
The boss comes by, and I play the game,
Then I turn back to net.flame.
Is there a cure (I need your views),
For someone trapped in net.news?
I need your help, I say 'tween sobs,
'Cause I'll soon be listed in net.jobs.
Rachel Fine
>
> Rachel Fine wrote in message
<19981205.093833...@juno.com>...
> :
autistic
> :spectrum; if there is spasticity, then there is something else going
on
> :as well as autism. Stereotyped movements are not an *inability* to
move
> :muscles.
> :
> :Actually, what you are describing above appears to be related more to
> :profound mental retardation than to autism. The two are not the
same.
> :
> :Rachel
>
> In the Frontline production, some of those shown weren't even looking
at the
> monitor or the keyboard. They were leaning backward with heads turned
to
> the side, arms contorted, and apparently ignoring the activity.
Ah, okay. That doesn't necessarily mean that the pose shown is their
habitual pose. These children were being "helped" to participate in an
activity that they weren't necessarily interested in, and that may have
held no meaning for them. That pose could have been the result of an
attempt to communicate "I don't want to *play* this game, lemme *go*."
Think of an infant being placed into a shopping cart seat when he doesn't
want to go--he arches his back and stiffens his body. I wonder how much
"help" (i.e., force) those facilitators were applying to hold the
stiffened arm to the keyboard. It could have been the child's solution
(looking somewhere else that might have held more interest, or zoning
out, and not particularly participating in the bodily manipulation) to
being trained that he/she had to remain in contact with the facilitator
and allow the facilitator to move the arm. It could have been a
tactile-defensive reaction to a situation in which touch was inescapable.
It could have been oppositional. It could have been any number of
things. I don't know the particular children, so I don't know what it
was. But if these kids were typical autistic kids, it is not likely to
have been the result of physical inability to move or control movements.
John M Price PhD
: "Gene Douglas" <gene...@prodigy.net> wrote:
: > Rachel Fine wrote in message
: <19981205.093833...@juno.com>...
: > :
: > :I think you misunderstand autism. Spasticity is not part of the
: autistic
: > :spectrum; if there is spasticity, then there is something else going
: on
: > :as well as autism. Stereotyped movements are not an *inability* to
: move
: > :muscles.
: > :
: > :Actually, what you are describing above appears to be related more to
: > :profound mental retardation than to autism. The two are not the
: same.
: > :
: > :Rachel
: >
: > In the Frontline production, some of those shown weren't even looking
: at the
: > monitor or the keyboard. They were leaning backward with heads turned
: to
: > the side, arms contorted, and apparently ignoring the activity.
: Ah, okay. That doesn't necessarily mean that the pose shown is their
: habitual pose. These children were being "helped" to participate in an
: activity that they weren't necessarily interested in, and that may have
: held no meaning for them.
Still, the typing *while in that pose* was attributed to their authorship.
Can't type while not looking at the keyboard with one finger.
Do look at the film.
[snip]
--
John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or by finger!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683
I don't want to achieve immortality through my work. I want
to achieve it through not dying.
- Woody Allen
John M Price PhD
[snip]
: I'm as much of a skeptic as Mr. Price and I admit that FC to someone not
: involved with this population (autists) and familiar with FC would jump to
: negative conclusions. Afterall, I voted it down at a treatment team meeting
: when it was first presented to us as a potential intervention. What changed
: my mind and others that I worked with was reading a couple pages of FC that
: was done by a staff in another program with a client that I had worked with
: for three years. The way that client talked in these FC's was remarkably
: like the personality of the client and it was hard to imagine that the staff
: could have come up with this unconsciously.
Such is the problem of qualitative research.
It aroused our curiosity enough
: for us to go through training and try the method. We knew all about the
: studies but wanted to see for ourselves. I was one of the last staff to
: actually be successful with the method, but before that I was impressed at
: what a great intervention it was therapeutically for the clients that I
: worked with whether or not they were actually talking through FC. This is a
: point that is often lost on the skeptics of FC. They keep arguing that it is
: invalid and therefore shouldn't be used.
Your clients deserve an objectively verifiable method of communication.
But us line staff are so accustomed
: to using interventions that have little validity and when these interventions
: do seem to have positive effects it is rarely known why. So for us FC was
: just another effective intervention behaviorally and therapeutically for our
: clients. A side benefit was getting to know our clients and trying to solve
: the mystery of their condition and what it was about them or FC that caused
: it to be resisting validation. They were also the most interesting people
: that I have ever talked to.
I can understand why! You are talking, most likey, to yourself, or other
staff members.
: I'll respond to John's post:
Yeah, right.
: In article <3666bab4.0@calwebnnrp>,
: In article <3666bab4.0@calwebnnrp>,
: John M Price PhD <jmp...@calweb.com> wrote:
: > You should write it off.
: >
: > Go to:
: >
: > http://www.quackwatch.com
: >
: > go to the search area, and enter the terms facilitated communication
: Quack is defined as "one who pretends to have medical knowledge". No one
: doing FC pretends that. Might you be pretending that John?
The PhD is certainly real. Your professional degree in medicine????
: > Also, I recently put up some cites in sci.psychology.psychotherapy.
: > Later, I think I'll collect a bunch of cites to place on my FTP site about
: > the quackery involved here.
: >
: > There are much better ways to use your resources to help these folks than
: > this.
: Name a few John. I'm the guy who has worked directly with these people for
So, no real sources, let's get on with the feel good stuff?
[snip]
: The autists don't want FC validated at this time. They have their reasons and
: you can read my FC's if you want to know what those reasons are. They can
: flunk the double blinds because they read minds.
Yes, that was part of what I read into the Torah stuff. But I thought I
was misreading it.
Ok, go the way of ESP.
: Any more questions John?
Read the Jacobson et al article?
Checked out the FTP site?
Try
ftp://ftp.calweb.com/users/j/jmprice/fc
Simply count the pro-con research into two columns. I am sure you can
count. I am sure you can't evaluate methodolgy as well, but that is
another story.
--
John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or by finger!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683
Yes, it is true that I cannot respond in a coherent manner on
Usenet.
- dot...@webtv.net - 10/27/97
John M Price PhD
ftp://ftp.calweb.com/users/j/jmprice/quotes
Oh, and
BITE ME
In sci.psychology.psychotherapy Ian Molton <mh12...@cr10m.staffs.ac.uk> wrote:
: In article <36697903.0@calwebnnrp>,
: John M Price PhD <jmp...@calweb.com> wrote:
: > Your two complaints, including headers, etc., have now exceeded the
: > original 941 byte sig.
: > Happy? Of course you are paying both ways....
: > Even happier I guess.
: Look, it's standard usenet protocol to give a URL for things like images,
: because doing this keeps downloads to a minimum.
: If people will ignore the guidelines, I *will* point it out. I cant make
: you change your way on this, but I would hope you dont do it in future, now
: you're aware of the problem, ok?
: Your .sig is also enormous, and you quote too much.
: --
: -Ian aka Lennier
: Acorn Computers, the best in the world
: http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hawk/
: BaBe - Women's human rights organisation in Croatia
: http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hawk/babe/
: True creativity comes from not being like everyone else. Aspie and proud of it.
--
John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or by finger!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683
Barbara "remember, bridge is like sex -- if you don't have a good
John M Price PhD
B I T E M E !!!
In sci.psychology.psychotherapy Ian Molton <mh12...@cr10m.staffs.ac.uk> wrote:
: In article <36695E14...@idt.net>,
: Mark Morin <mmo...@PETERHOOD69idt.net> wrote:
: > funny, it never came through here. Even on Kimberly's post, it showed
: > up as a broken link. hmm
: many newsservers strip binaries from non-binary newsgroups (which is just
: as well, really)
: --
: -Ian aka Lennier
: Acorn Computers, the best in the world
: http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hawk/
: BaBe - Women's human rights organisation in Croatia
: http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hawk/babe/
: True creativity comes from not being like everyone else. Aspie and proud of it.
--
John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or by finger!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683
Double-Blind Experiment, n.:
An experiment in which the chief researcher believes he is
fooling both the subject and the lab assistant. Often accompanied by a
belief in the tooth fairy.
John M Price PhD
: So the proper method for discussing opposing view points after you run
: out of cogent arguments is to commence sniping? Oh goody, I'm good at
Well, Ian, here, is not discussing anything but 941 bytes of data that
happen to have encoded a cute little devil icon.
He has spent at least three times as much in data size than the little
icon that occasionally hits my sig file. (I use a random selection of a
quote directory.)
Personally, when you spend $5 to complain about a quarter of a buck, two
bits as it were, you are being foolish.
Hence the 'bite me' stuff.
: that, it doesn't require me to think or study or learn or even act
: mature! Nifty.
Yep, it can be, depending on the height of the road.
NB: Entire message left intact just for Ian's budget. Lessons learned
without payment are, in fact, worthless.
Or, maybe, priceless!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(he he he)
: On 5 Dec 1998 22:14:27 +0800, John M Price PhD <jmp...@calweb.com>
: wrote:
: >Did I mention:
"If there is any principle in the Constitution that more imperatively
calls for attachment than any other, it is the principle of free thought-
not free thought for those who agree with us, but freedom for the thought
that we hate."
-Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes
q...@my-dejanews.com
I should spend more time over here (Deja News). I think I will for awhile.
I see another True Believer in the all powerful science of psychology has
emerged to score points for his cause. And where does this particular true
believer smell victory? Against parents and caretakers that hold a person
with autism's hand and believes that they are talking to them. This is
dangerous stuff and we need the John Price's of the world to warn us. John
tells us that if you believe in FC (Facilitated Communication), you are in
danger of fooling yourself into thinking that people with severe autism have
any cognitive abilities. And if you do that than you will treat people with
severe autism with the respect and attention that the John Price's of the
world get.
I'm as much of a skeptic as Mr. Price and I admit that FC to someone not
involved with this population (autists) and familiar with FC would jump to
negative conclusions. Afterall, I voted it down at a treatment team meeting
when it was first presented to us as a potential intervention. What changed
my mind and others that I worked with was reading a couple pages of FC that
was done by a staff in another program with a client that I had worked with
for three years. The way that client talked in these FC's was remarkably
like the personality of the client and it was hard to imagine that the staff
could have come up with this unconsciously. It aroused our curiosity enough
for us to go through training and try the method. We knew all about the
studies but wanted to see for ourselves. I was one of the last staff to
actually be successful with the method, but before that I was impressed at
what a great intervention it was therapeutically for the clients that I
worked with whether or not they were actually talking through FC. This is a
point that is often lost on the skeptics of FC. They keep arguing that it is
invalid and therefore shouldn't be used. But us line staff are so accustomed
to using interventions that have little validity and when these interventions
do seem to have positive effects it is rarely known why. So for us FC was
just another effective intervention behaviorally and therapeutically for our
clients. A side benefit was getting to know our clients and trying to solve
the mystery of their condition and what it was about them or FC that caused
it to be resisting validation. They were also the most interesting people
that I have ever talked to.
I'll respond to John's post:
In article <3666bab4.0@calwebnnrp>,
In article <3666bab4.0@calwebnnrp>,
John M Price PhD <jmp...@calweb.com> wrote:
> You should write it off.
>
> Go to:
>
> http://www.quackwatch.com
>
> go to the search area, and enter the terms facilitated communication
Quack is defined as "one who pretends to have medical knowledge". No one
doing FC pretends that. Might you be pretending that John?
> Also, I recently put up some cites in sci.psychology.psychotherapy.
> Later, I think I'll collect a bunch of cites to place on my FTP site about
> the quackery involved here.
>
> There are much better ways to use your resources to help these folks than
> this.
Name a few John. I'm the guy who has worked directly with these people for
25 years. I never saw an intervention that was more therapeutically
effective with this population. I would hope that some day there is some
studies done on this. I was in an ICF program and our data was pretty
conclusive as to the positive effects across the board that occurred while we
were using FC.
> Art here, BTW, is decidedly proFC, and that can easily be seen in his web
> site which claims to have con articles, but doesn't. I have one question
> for the proFC contingent:
Art's site is "under construction"
> If it is so effective at providing a communication channel for the
> autists, why is it impossible for the description of a simple stimulus
> from the autists to be communicated, unless the facilitator has also seen
> the same stimulus?
The autists don't want FC validated at this time. They have their reasons and
you can read my FC's if you want to know what those reasons are. They can
flunk the double blinds because they read minds.
Any more questions John?
Tom Smith
--
"Senses teach you little, time teaches us scores of tunes": The
Autists
Autism - FC - Interactive http://members.delphi.com/QIM/index.html
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Ian Molton
> original 941 byte sig.
> Happy? Of course you are paying both ways....
> Even happier I guess.
Look, it's standard usenet protocol to give a URL for things like images,
because doing this keeps downloads to a minimum.
If people will ignore the guidelines, I *will* point it out. I cant make
you change your way on this, but I would hope you dont do it in future, now
you're aware of the problem, ok?
Your .sig is also enormous, and you quote too much.
--
Ian Molton
Mark Morin <mmo...@PETERHOOD69idt.net> wrote:
> funny, it never came through here. Even on Kimberly's post, it showed
> up as a broken link. hmm
many newsservers strip binaries from non-binary newsgroups (which is just
as well, really)
--
anark...@home.com
out of cogent arguments is to commence sniping? Oh goody, I'm good at
mature! Nifty.
On 5 Dec 1998 22:14:27 +0800, John M Price PhD <jmp...@calweb.com>
wrote:
>Did I mention:
>
> B I T E M E !!!
>
>
>
>In sci.psychology.psychotherapy Ian Molton <mh12...@cr10m.staffs.ac.uk> wrote:
>: In article <36695E14...@idt.net>,
Mark Morin
> So the proper method for discussing opposing view points after you run
> out of cogent arguments is to commence sniping? Oh goody, I'm good at
> that, it doesn't require me to think or study or learn or even act
> mature! Nifty.
the statement that news servers strip off binaries is an opposing view to what pray
tell?
anark...@home.com
:-)))
BITE MEE!!!!! heheheheheeeheeeh
:-)))
q...@my-dejanews.com
In article <748stp$b5lu$2...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>,
TBJ...@prodigy.com (Susan Gazzara) wrote:
> Now am I going to pay big bucks to hire someone to come out and
> facilitate my daughter so she can type poetry on a computer. I don't
> think so.
FC doesn't cost anything to use. It's easier to do than sign language. The
only difference is that FC is a more intimate communication. Using FC as a
functional communication ("do you want peas or carrots for dinner?") needs to
be limited due to the validity problem, but is good for small matters of
choice and control. Because the communication from FC is not understood well
at this time, it needs to be seen as just another intervention tool to
improve the quality of life for it's users.
> But will I get an oversize keyboard with developmentally appropriate
> software to teach her basic sight words and how to both read and type
> them, you betcha. I think the experts in this field need to credit
> parents with some common sense.
This on the surface is common sense, but is more a defensive reaction to FC,
a way to avoid the controversy. That's understandable because the FC
community itself hasn't provided a reasonable way to approach FC. What you
are talking about above is called augmentative communication (AC). FC is
very different because the communication is much more sophisticated than what
you can get through AC. FC is also much more therapeutic due to the
increased positive regard the facilitator has for the communicator, and for
the attention and the physical touch that FC provides. It's a therapeutic
bonanza for the communicator that makes interventions like Lovass and
Secretin seem impotent. You don't have to know what is happening with FC to
know that FC is the best thing to happen for your child. And there will
always be the nagging question, "What if all these people who FC are right"?
That question and the obvious therapeutic benefits of FC should be enough to
at least try FC or encourage others to do it with your child.
Tom Smith
--
"Senses teach you little, time teaches us scores of tunes": The
Autistics
John M Price PhD
: In article <748stp$b5lu$2...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>,
: TBJ...@prodigy.com (Susan Gazzara) wrote:
: > Now am I going to pay big bucks to hire someone to come out and
: > facilitate my daughter so she can type poetry on a computer. I don't
: > think so.
: FC doesn't cost anything to use.
The facilitators work for free?
It's easier to do than sign language. The
: only difference is that FC is a more intimate communication. Using FC as a
: functional communication ("do you want peas or carrots for dinner?") needs to
: be limited due to the validity problem, but is good for small matters of
Validity problem, you say. Hmmmm. Where have I heard that before?
: choice and control. Because the communication from FC is not understood well
: at this time, it needs to be seen as just another intervention tool to
: improve the quality of life for it's users.
I submit that increased attention, true attention - not this
pseudocommunication stuff - would be the better route.
: > But will I get an oversize keyboard with developmentally appropriate
: > software to teach her basic sight words and how to both read and type
: > them, you betcha. I think the experts in this field need to credit
: > parents with some common sense.
: This on the surface is common sense, but is more a defensive reaction to FC,
: a way to avoid the controversy.
So, now you're a PhD in psychology - and clinically licensed to boot
allowing this inner state diagnosis of defensiveness?
amazing.
That's understandable because the FC
: community itself hasn't provided a reasonable way to approach FC.
Nor any objectively verifiable forms of communicatiion.
except, of course, for the little stuff - explained by
qualitative research methods and Mr. Smith
What you
: are talking about above is called augmentative communication (AC). FC is
: very different because the communication is much more sophisticated than what
: you can get through AC.
Yep. You are confounding (do look that up) two people, and the observer.
It is a mess. Not sophisticated, not complex, simply a mess.
FC is also much more therapeutic due to the
: increased positive regard the facilitator has for the communicator, and for
: the attention and the physical touch that FC provides.
Excellent point. And I suspect the holder of all the variance.
It's a therapeutic
: bonanza for the communicator that makes interventions like Lovass and
: Secretin seem impotent.
But the objective studies indicate that the communication comes from the
facilitator.
How, then, can you say this for something that substitutes one voice for
another.
You don't have to know what is happening with FC to
: know that FC is the best thing to happen for your child. And there will
???????????????????????????????????
: always be the nagging question, "What if all these people who FC are right"?
: That question and the obvious therapeutic benefits of FC should be enough to
: at least try FC or encourage others to do it with your child.
So, because there is doubt, go ahead, listen to the facilitator type type
type - not your child.
Good advice?
--
John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or by finger!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683
Peanut Blossoms
4 cups sugar 16 tbsp. milk
4 cups brown sugar 4 tsp. vanilla
4 cups shortening 14 cups flour
8 eggs 4 tsp. soda
4 cups peanut butter 4 tsp. salt
Shape dough into balls. Roll in sugar and bake on ungreased cookie
sheet at 375 F. for 10-12 minutes. Immediately top each cookie with a
Hershey's kiss or star pressing down firmly to crack cookie. Makes a
hell of a lot.
NO CARRIER
anark...@home.com
I have a friend who is barely high function and at times is near
catatonic. On a good day he can move mountains, on a bad, only his
head.
He once said that the difference was when someone animated came over
and gave him some direction. Then he could borrow from their energy,
momentum, whatever it was, he said he thought this was what was
behind FC, that the touch/presence of the individual facilitating gave
just enough energy to borrow that the AC could manage a focus briefly.
As to "not looking at the keyboard" you can see better out of the
corner of your eye if you ignore the more intense center because of
the extreme over stimulation.
You must remember that autism has a very great deal to do with
hypersensory conditions. No, I'm not going to quote experts, if you
think I'm wrong, fine. I don't care, but then, maybe you can hear the
sense/logic of what I say and use it to build up your knowledge and
coping skills.
So, being overstimulated in every sense, the individual would
naturally exhibit extreme stress reactions and avoidance techniques
such as making noise, creating strong focus moments to shut out the
rest (stimming), having strong emotional reactions (temper tantrums)
and be generally very tense.
So, one unfocusses the eyes, or concentrates on one sound, or on one
texture. To see, you look at the edges of vision where it is softer
and less overwhelming. You look at little things very close up so
they fill your visual field with sameness, pattern, lack of stimuli.
Approach an autistic child as an idividual whose every nerve is
running a migraine headache and take it from there.
FC may work along these concepts.
I just got lost in thought. It was unfamiliar territory.
Ian Molton
> without payment are, in fact, worthless.
> Or, maybe, priceless!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thats childish. Besides it wont work - have you noticed how my machine is
always online?
Ethernet!!!!
Ian Molton
> BITE ME
<chomp>
Gene Douglas
Ian Molton wrote in message <48b02be9f...@staffs.ac.uk>...
:In article <366a20a0.0@calwebnnrp>,
Gene Douglas
Rachel Fine wrote in message <19981205.182810....@juno.com>...
: "Gene Douglas" <gene...@prodigy.net> wrote:
:>
:> Rachel Fine wrote in message
:<19981205.093833...@juno.com>...
:> :
:> :I think you misunderstand autism. Spasticity is not part of the
:autistic
:> :spectrum; if there is spasticity, then there is something else going
:on
:> :as well as autism. Stereotyped movements are not an *inability* to
:move
:> :muscles.
:> :
:> :Actually, what you are describing above appears to be related more to
:> :profound mental retardation than to autism. The two are not the
:same.
:> :
:> :Rachel
:>
:> In the Frontline production, some of those shown weren't even looking
:at the
:> monitor or the keyboard. They were leaning backward with heads turned
:to
:> the side, arms contorted, and apparently ignoring the activity.
:
:Ah, okay. That doesn't necessarily mean that the pose shown is their
:habitual pose. These children were being "helped" to participate in an
:activity that they weren't necessarily interested in, and that may have
:attempt to communicate "I don't want to *play* this game, lemme *go*."
As they ignored the process, they produced beautiful prose.
:Think of an infant being placed into a shopping cart seat when he doesn't
:want to go--he arches his back and stiffens his body. I wonder how much
:"help" (i.e., force) those facilitators were applying to hold the
:stiffened arm to the keyboard. It could have been the child's solution
:(looking somewhere else that might have held more interest, or zoning
:out, and not particularly participating in the bodily manipulation) to
:being trained that he/she had to remain in contact with the facilitator
:and allow the facilitator to move the arm. It could have been a
:tactile-defensive reaction to a situation in which touch was inescapable.
: It could have been oppositional. It could have been any number of
:things. I don't know the particular children, so I don't know what it
:was. But if these kids were typical autistic kids, it is not likely to
:have been the result of physical inability to move or control movements.
:
:Rachel
One would think that is what FC is all about. That the kid can't control
his hand well enough to use a keyboard, so the facilitator steadies out the
wobbling, and allows the more consistent force to predominate.
It's been five years, so I'm not certain. But I thought I remembered a
bobbing of the head, perhaps misshapen faces and teeth reminiscent of
certain retarded children. But then, I also thought I remembered Morie
Safer, so go figure.
Mark Morin
>
> Thats childish. Besides it wont work - have you noticed how my machine is
> always online?
>
> Ethernet!!!!
>
now, how are we supposed to know that--ping you constantly.
You were the one who brought up paying for the minute for download time.
Mark Morin
> FC doesn't cost anything to use. It's easier to do than sign language. The
> only difference is that FC is a more intimate communication. Using FC as a
> functional communication ("do you want peas or carrots for dinner?") needs to
> be limited due to the validity problem,
Could you explain this "validity problem?"
It sounds like what you are saying is that FC does not reliably and validy
express the genuine wishes and desires of the child.
So, if a method is not valid, why are you endorsing it?
mark
Ian Molton
Mark Morin <mmo...@PETERHOOD69idt.net> wrote:
> > Thats childish. Besides it wont work - have you noticed how my machine
> > is always online?
> > Ethernet!!!!
> now, how are we supposed to know that--ping you constantly.
If you like :)
> You were the one who brought up paying for the minute for download time.
Yes, but I was thinking of others, not myself. I personally dont care if
you attach a 3 meg JPEG to the news posting - it'll only take me about 6
seconds to download, and wont cost me a penny. However, I think it's nice
not to waste other people (who may be on modems in the UK) bandwidth. It
costs them *MONEY*.
(just like this stupid thread is costing them :(((
John M Price PhD
: It's been five years, so I'm not certain. But I thought I remembered a
: bobbing of the head, perhaps misshapen faces and teeth reminiscent of
: certain retarded children. But then, I also thought I remembered Morie
: Safer, so go figure.
Morley. I think you did. I think they too did a segment on the stuff.
20/20 was where I first heard of it, prior to the Frontline.
--
John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or by finger!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683
(Sung to the tune of "The Impossible Dream" from MAN OF LA MANCHA)
To code the impossible code,
To bring up a virgin machine,
To pop out of endless recursion,
To grok what appears on the screen,
To right the unrightable bug,
To endlessly twiddle and thrash,
To mount the unmountable magtape,
To stop the unstoppable crash!
CWilson379
>: I disagree with you here also. A homeopathic doctor helped us
>: tremendously with problems we had with our boys. When the other medical
>: doctors would not listen and would not help.
>
>Listen is the key here. Do you know how the medications are developed?
>Do you know anything about the memory of water?
>
I doubt Kathy would know how the conventional medications a traditional MD
would prescribe are developed, yet the Quackwatch webmaster (and apparently
you) would have her accept those unquestioningly - much more so if she heeded
the "Quackwatch" advice and avoided any alternative treatment modalities or
physicians who might give her information with which to question aspects of
traditional medicine.
The derogatory "memory of water" reference derives from a perhaps misguided
attempt to explain how homeopathic remedies can work even if they are so
diluted that they do not contain a single molecule of the substance being used.
At the risk of being further bashed by you, I will attempt a better
explanation.
Substances have both biochemical and biophysical properties. The biochemical
properties, which we understand better, are gone when the dilution results in
less than a molecule of the substance remaining. (I am not saying that all
diluted homeopathic remedies have less than a molecule remaining, as I do not
know whether or not this is so.) However, the biophysical properties. These
affect the electromagnetic field of the diluted remedy, and therein lies its
effect.
Perhaps with your superior education and knowledge you would care to offer a
better explanation, and then you can tell us why it is "bunk" or "quackery." In
the meantime, people like Kathy will continue using it because it works for
them. And medical schools in America will be teaching it along with traditional
Western medicine concepts.
CWilson379
The cost of the training is minimal when compared with other therapies, such as
ABA, which I assume Dr. Price endorses heartily. I know a woman in my area
whose son communicates through FC with only the assistance of her and her
husband. The major factor in the cost is the time the facilitator spends. In
many cases of nonspeaking adults living in residential facilities, the same
person who would offer facilitation is already employed full-time, providing
custodial care to the same people who might be communicating if Price and
people like him weren't so bent on preventing them from having the opportunity.
If anything, implementing FC might reduce the need for high-priced consultants
for other therapies like Lovaas/DTT or ABA.
It definitely makes one wonder why they are so vociferous in their opposition,
and so hostile toward anyone who is actually doing it. Even if you accept as
true their claim that everyone using it is simply sitting there like an
unconscious blob while a facilitator types prose of his own creation, what harm
is being done to the autistic individual? If, on the other hand, even ONE
person is denied the means to communicate this way, they are possibly denied
meaningful communication for the rest of their lives. This doesn't seem to
bother guys like Price. You almost have to start wondering how many of the
greatly feared stories of sexual abuse are true, and how many of these "public
service warnings" are in fact frantic manipulations by perpetrators who fear
being caught.
>From: jen...@bigfoot.com (jenwolf)
>On Sat, 5 Dec 1998 07:35:45 GMT, nigh...@netcom.com (Galiganinda
>Dulin) wrote:
>
>>This makes me wonder -- could it be the same with Facilitated
>>Communication? Could it be something that works in some circumstances
>>but is over-marketed? Could that website be scaring people off when they
>>might be the ones helped by it?
>>
>>The other thing it said about Irlen lenses was that the price was in
>>excess of $500. Compared to procedures to even measure the neurological
>>factors involved (EEGs, etc) which are over $1000, it's nothing.
>
>that's my main gripe about these types of things that some people
>swear by and some people swear at -- the money involved. i think,
>while the things/therapy in question may indeed help some people with
>some things, it becomes a fraud when someone has to shell out
>thousands of dollars for it. it becomes a quackery when you pay the
>doctor hundreds/thousands of dollars and in return get a little bit of
>common sense coaching. iow, it's not a new medical proceedure that
>warrants over-charging and claims-of-cures.
>
>so, it's a question every parent has to ask himself -- what kind of
>service are you getting for the money you're spending? is it *really*
>something which requires a doctor's supervision? or is it something
>you could research and try on your own? or perhaps find someone who
>might not be an MD, charge a lot less and give the same service?
>
John M Price PhD
: > 2nd. Are you also saying homeopathy is quackery?
: >: tremendously with problems we had with our boys. When the other medical
: >: doctors would not listen and would not help.
: >
: >Listen is the key here. Do you know how the medications are developed?
: >Do you know anything about the memory of water?
: >
: I doubt Kathy would know how the conventional medications a traditional MD
: would prescribe are developed, yet the Quackwatch webmaster (and apparently
: you) would have her accept those unquestioningly - much more so if she heeded
: the "Quackwatch" advice and avoided any alternative treatment modalities or
: physicians who might give her information with which to question aspects of
: traditional medicine.
: The derogatory "memory of water" reference derives from a perhaps misguided
: attempt to explain how homeopathic remedies can work even if they are so
: diluted that they do not contain a single molecule of the substance being used.
: At the risk of being further bashed by you, I will attempt a better
: explanation.
: Substances have both biochemical and biophysical properties. The biochemical
: properties, which we understand better, are gone when the dilution results in
: less than a molecule of the substance remaining. (I am not saying that all
: diluted homeopathic remedies have less than a molecule remaining, as I do not
: know whether or not this is so.) However, the biophysical properties. These
: affect the electromagnetic field of the diluted remedy, and therein lies its
: effect.
Funny, there is not a standard chemist or physicist that buys this, other
than to spread it on lawns in the spring.
IOW there are no tests yet that can determine what the water remembers.
: Perhaps with your superior education and knowledge you would care to offer a
: better explanation, and then you can tell us why it is "bunk" or "quackery." In
It is simply the placebo effect, and the added attention by the
physicians.
: the meantime, people like Kathy will continue using it because it works for
: them. And medical schools in America will be teaching it along with traditional
: Western medicine concepts.
They do teach the power of placebo.
--
John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or by finger!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683
From too much love of living,
From hope and fear set free,
We thank with brief thanksgiving,
Whatever gods may be,
That no life lives forever,
That dead men rise up never,
That even the weariest river winds somewhere safe to sea.
- Swinburne
John M Price PhD
[snip]
: It definitely makes one wonder why they are so vociferous in their opposition,
Because the 'voice' is not that of the autist.
: and so hostile toward anyone who is actually doing it. Even if you accept as
: true their claim that everyone using it is simply sitting there like an
: unconscious blob while a facilitator types prose of his own creation, what harm
: is being done to the autistic individual?
Denial of their right to be treated as they are. Without false hopes all
around.
Then, consider the family.
View the tape. Really.
: >From: jen...@bigfoot.com (jenwolf)
: >
--
John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or by finger!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683
When you clock the human race with the Stopwatch of Time, it's a new
record every time.
- Firesign Theatre,
John M Price PhD
In article <19981206144908...@ng14.aol.com> CWilson379 <cwils...@aol.com> wrote:
: FC does not require a doctor's supervision or expensive training or equipment.
: The cost of the training is minimal when compared with other therapies, such as
: ABA, which I assume Dr. Price endorses heartily. I know a woman in my area
: whose son communicates through FC with only the assistance of her and her
: husband. The major factor in the cost is the time the facilitator spends. In
: many cases of nonspeaking adults living in residential facilities, the same
: person who would offer facilitation is already employed full-time, providing
: custodial care to the same people who might be communicating if Price and
: people like him weren't so bent on preventing them from having the opportunity.
: If anything, implementing FC might reduce the need for high-priced consultants
: for other therapies like Lovaas/DTT or ABA.
: It definitely makes one wonder why they are so vociferous in their opposition,
: and so hostile toward anyone who is actually doing it. Even if you accept as
: true their claim that everyone using it is simply sitting there like an
: unconscious blob while a facilitator types prose of his own creation, what harm
: is being done to the autistic individual? If, on the other hand, even ONE
: >From: jen...@bigfoot.com (jenwolf)
One trend that bothers me is the glorification of stupidity, that the media
is reassuring people it's alright not to know anything. That to me is far
more dangerous than a little pornography on the Internet.
- Carl Sagan
gol...@shani.net
Pisgat Yehuda program to include a very difficult person with autism.
Therefore, I will not be able to respond to any of these posts on
Facilitated Communication for at tleast another couple of days.
However, I really think the statements below require response.
Anyone else interested in responding?
Art
In article <3669c16c.0@calwebnnrp>,
John M Price PhD <jmp...@calweb.com> wrote:
> In article <74cb8d$klt$1...@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Nancy Stone <dans...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> [snip]
>
> : itself, is not a remarkable achievement. With patience, you can teach a
> : chicken to type, but you cannot teach it to read what it has written. What
>
> Don't know about chickens, but pigeons certainly. Skinner did pretty much
> that IIRC. Ping-pong too, missile guidence as well.
>
> But pigeons won't run mazed and rats won't type at all.
>
> --
> John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Ian Molton
CWilson379 <cwils...@aol.com> wrote:
> Substances have both biochemical and biophysical properties. The
> biochemical properties, which we understand better, are gone when the
> dilution results in less than a molecule of the substance remaining. (I
> am not saying that all diluted homeopathic remedies have less than a
> molecule remaining, as I do not know whether or not this is so.)
> However, the biophysical properties. These affect the electromagnetic
> field of the diluted remedy, and therein lies its effect.
That sounds like BS to me...
Rachel Fine
wrote:
>In sci.psychology.psychotherapy Rachel Fine
<Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote:
>: "Gene Douglas" <gene...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>: >
>: > In the Frontline production, some of those shown weren't even
looking
>: at the
>: > monitor or the keyboard. They were leaning backward with heads
turned
>: to
>: > the side, arms contorted, and apparently ignoring the activity.
>
>: Ah, okay. That doesn't necessarily mean that the pose shown is their
>: habitual pose. These children were being "helped" to participate in
an
>: activity that they weren't necessarily interested in, and that may
have
>: held no meaning for them.
>
authorship.
>
>Can't type while not looking at the keyboard with one finger.
>
>Do look at the film.
>[snip]
I've seen the film. I was about as impressed with it as you were, I
think.
Rachel
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
Rachel Fine
wrote:
>Rachel Fine wrote in message
> : "Gene Douglas" <gene...@prodigy.net> wrote:
> :>
> :> In the Frontline production, some of those shown weren't even
looking
> :at the
> :> monitor or the keyboard. They were leaning backward with heads
turned
> :to
> :> the side, arms contorted, and apparently ignoring the activity.
> :
> :Ah, okay. That doesn't necessarily mean that the pose shown is their
> :habitual pose. These children were being "helped" to participate in
an
> :activity that they weren't necessarily interested in, and that may
have
> :attempt to communicate "I don't want to *play* this game, lemme *go*."
>
>As they ignored the process, they produced beautiful prose.
The evidence shows that it was not the autistic child who produced that
prose.
That's supposed to be the theory. Might actually work for literate
people of normal intelligence stricken by palsy. That isn't the autistic
person's problem, tho.
>It's been five years, so I'm not certain. But I thought I remembered a
>bobbing of the head, perhaps misshapen faces and teeth reminiscent of
>certain retarded children. But then, I also thought I remembered Morie
>Safer, so go figure.
Autistic kids typically show frequent stereotyped movements, which are
self-stimulatory in nature, and not the result of lack of motor control
(unless there is another condition that is affecting motor control).
Autism is often related to mental retardation, but, in most cases,
severe/profound levels of mental retardation (which is where you see most
of the inabilty to control body movements associated with lack of
executive control over motor functions) will preclude a diagnosis of
autism.
Most autistic persons are not physically deformed. What looked like a
misshapen head may have been some sort of habitual grimace that made the
person's face and head look strange to you, and which you encoded into
your memory as "misshapen."
Autistic kids, along with the rocking and flapping, that many show and
which you appear to be attributing to lack of motor control, will show
incredibly adept fine motor manipulation in other ways (eg., lining up
small items in perfectly straight lines, causing all sorts of items to
spin like tops, picking sores in their skin, etc.). It's not that they
are unable to hit a particular typewriter key on their own.
Gene Douglas
years ago. Colored glasses. Has anybody heard of this lately?
John M Price PhD wrote in message <366ac11d.0@calwebnnrp>...
:In sci.psychology.psychotherapy Gene Douglas <gene...@prodigy.net> wrote:
:
:: It's been five years, so I'm not certain. But I thought I remembered a
:: bobbing of the head, perhaps misshapen faces and teeth reminiscent of
:: certain retarded children. But then, I also thought I remembered Morie
:: Safer, so go figure.
:
:Morley. I think you did. I think they too did a segment on the stuff.
:20/20 was where I first heard of it, prior to the Frontline.
:John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
John M Price PhD
: I was just asked to prepare an initial proposal about expanding the
: Pisgat Yehuda program to include a very difficult person with autism.
: Therefore, I will not be able to respond to any of these posts on
: Facilitated Communication for at tleast another couple of days.
: However, I really think the statements below require response.
: Anyone else interested in responding?
?
Perhaps you've never read B. F. Skinner?
: Art
: In article <3669c16c.0@calwebnnrp>,
: John M Price PhD <jmp...@calweb.com> wrote:
: > In article <74cb8d$klt$1...@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Nancy Stone <dans...@earthlink.net> wrote:
: > [snip]
: >
: > : itself, is not a remarkable achievement. With patience, you can teach a
: > : chicken to type, but you cannot teach it to read what it has written. What
: >
: > Don't know about chickens, but pigeons certainly. Skinner did pretty much
: > that IIRC. Ping-pong too, missile guidence as well.
: >
: > But pigeons won't run mazed and rats won't type at all.
: >
: > --
: > John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
: >
: -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
: http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
--
John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or by finger!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683
Group selection is probably a good approximation for some situations. But
like all physics theories come down to atoms or parts of atoms, biology
has to come down to individuals or sometimes parts of individuals.
- Dr. David Rosen on sci.bio.evolution
John M Price PhD
: While we're at it, there was a phenomenal treatment for dyslexia several
: years ago. Colored glasses. Has anybody heard of this lately?
Irlen lenses. I commented on that too, along with homeopathy.
I don't know how to blind for a study of it.
: John M Price PhD wrote in message <366ac11d.0@calwebnnrp>...
: :In sci.psychology.psychotherapy Gene Douglas <gene...@prodigy.net> wrote:
: :
: :: It's been five years, so I'm not certain. But I thought I remembered a
: :: bobbing of the head, perhaps misshapen faces and teeth reminiscent of
: :: certain retarded children. But then, I also thought I remembered Morie
: :: Safer, so go figure.
: :
: :Morley. I think you did. I think they too did a segment on the stuff.
: :20/20 was where I first heard of it, prior to the Frontline.
: :John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
--
John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or by finger!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683
Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty
when the government's purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are
naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded
rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment
by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding.
- Justice Louis Brandeis, Olmstead v. U.S., 277 U.S. 438 (1928)
gol...@shani.net
(Due to the emergency situation, I am sending you a copy by e-mail so you
can respond more quickly - thank you)
What is a TOS violation?
Did you file it for the statement I did not snip?
To whom do I send information about the mitigating circumstances ( your
incitement against a person with a disability)?
In article <366ae6d4.0@calwebnnrp>,
John M Price PhD <jmp...@calweb.com> wrote:
> Oh, BTW, forwarded to your ISP as a TOS violation.
>
> In article <19981206144908...@ng14.aol.com> CWilson379 <cwils...@aol.com> wrote:
[snip]
> : If, on the other hand, even ONE
> : person is denied the means to communicate this way, they are possibly denied
> : meaningful communication for the rest of their lives. This doesn't seem to
> : bother guys like Price. You almost have to start wondering how many of the
> : greatly feared stories of sexual abuse are true, and how many of these "public
> : service warnings" are in fact frantic manipulations by perpetrators who fear
> : being caught.
>
[snip]
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
John M Price PhD
: >Did you file it for the statement I did not snip?
: He filed it to AOL against Chris Wilson, because Chris has expressed
: opinions about Faciliated Communication that John M Price, PhD does not
No, I filed it because Chris here decided that those scientists, myself
included, who think FC is quackery, are saying as much because they are
pereptrators of child sexual abuse.
Or did you not read that.
: like. And hence John M Price, PhD has resorted to the abuse of AOL's TOS
: violation report procedure in order to scare Chris away from expressing
: any further such opinions.
: However, this shameless bullying tactic will fail, as Chris has not
: violated anything, and I doubt she is so easily scared. Therefore the only
: effect will be that John M Price, PhD has exposed himself for the pathetic
: bully that he is.
: - Martijn
: P.S. He's a dumbass, too.
: P.P.S. To Price: Report me. Make my day.
You've not made any statements, other than a simple mistake of not reading
Chris' whole post.
--
John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or by finger!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683
The essence of wisdom... lies not in what is known but rather in the
manner in which that knowledge is held and in how that knowledge is put to
use. To be wise is not to know particular facts but to know without
excessive confidence or excessive cautiousness. Wisdom is thus not a
belief, a value, a set of facts, a corpus of knowledge or information in
some specialized area, or a set of special abilities or skills. Wisdom is
an attitude taken by persons toward the beliefs, values, knowledge,
information, abilities, and skills that are held, a tendency to doubt that
these are necessarily true or valid and to doubt that they are an
exhaustive set of those things that could be known.
- Robert J. Sternberg in "Wisdom" (Cambridge, 1990)
John M Price PhD
In article <74fjv6$mrr$1...@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Nancy Stone <dans...@earthlink.net> wrote:
: John M Price PhD wrote in message <366ac829.0@calwebnnrp>...
: >
: >[ Article reposted from alt.support.autism ]
: >[ Author was anark...@home.com ]
: >[ Posted on Sun, 06 Dec 1998 08:29:51 GMT ]
: >
: snip
: >As to "not looking at the keyboard" you can see better out of the
: >corner of your eye if you ignore the more intense center because of
: >the extreme over stimulation.
: In the retina, cones are used for color vision and rods are used for black
: and white vision. Rods detect motion, and cones resolve detail.
Small nit. The 'detection', as it were, is really the ganglion cell - the
neuron in the retina to which these receptors project. There are
different classes, and the motion detectors actually project to different
brain areas to effect orienting responses.
Cones are
: concentrated at the fovea, the point at the retina where the lens of the
: eyeball focuses light.
Further, on the detail, these cones connect to one and only one ganglion
cell increasing resolution. Also, in development, the ganglion cells and
other neuronal links actually move aside to allow a straight shot at the
foveal cones, creating the foveal pit. Throughout the rest of the eye the
light has to travel through all the neuronal layers before it hits the
receptors at the very back of the eye.
There are hardly any cones outside the fovea and
: next to none at "the corner of the eye."
There is certainly a deep shift. But there are some everywhere. I am not
sure about the area at the ora terminalis. Horace Barlow's book _The
Senses_ has a nice set of figures on the various parts of the retina and
the cells involved.
People automatically turn their
: heads in order to cause what they wish to see to be focused on the fovea
Yep. Mediated by the superior colliculus.
: where the cones are. People do that in order to see the most color and
: detail. Rods do not provide either.
: People frequently use their peripheral vision to detect motion, but they do
: not use it to see anything "better." If you write letters of different
: sizes on a sheet of paper and then hold that paper off to the side, you will
Better to have a friend write the letters. A small bit of control is
always helpful.
: see that you will be unable to resolve the letters on the paper, especially
: those that are the same size as the letters on a typewriter keyboard. You
: will only be able to tell that there is a sheet of paper there, but not read
: anything written on it, even if the letters are an inch high.
: I can readily believe that someone might turn their head to avoid
: over-stimulation. That is what babies do to regulate social interactions.
: I cannot believe that someone can read a keyboard using their peripheral
: vision.
: Of course, perhaps those who believe in FC are willing to set aside
: everything scientists have learned about visual perception too. It is
: always possible to invent an explanation for something one wants to believe.
: It is much harder to invent an explanation that fits other known facts.
: Setting aside science as a way of knowing relieves one of that difficult
: obligation.
: Nancy
--
John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or by finger!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683
The intelligence of any discussion diminishes with the square of the
number of participants.
- Adam Walinsky
--
John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or by finger!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683
PLUNDERER'S THEME
(to Supercalifragilisticexpialidocius)
Pillage, rape, and loot and burn, but all in moderation.
If you do the things we say, then you'll soon rule the nation.
Kill your foes and enemies and then kill your relations.
Pillage, rape, and loot and burn, but all in moderation.
MH
having to read it.
John M Price PhD wrote in message <366ae6d4.0@calwebnnrp>...
>Oh, BTW, forwarded to your ISP as a TOS violation.
>
>
>In article <19981206144908...@ng14.aol.com> CWilson379
<cwils...@aol.com> wrote:
>: is being done to the autistic individual? If, on the other hand, even ONE
>: person is denied the means to communicate this way, they are possibly
denied
>: meaningful communication for the rest of their lives. This doesn't seem
to
>: bother guys like Price. You almost have to start wondering how many of
the
>: greatly feared stories of sexual abuse are true, and how many of these
"public
>: service warnings" are in fact frantic manipulations by perpetrators who
fear
>: being caught.
>
>--
>John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
>Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or by finger!
> Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
>Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683
>
MH
having to read it.
Rachel Fine wrote in message <19981205.182810....@juno.com>...
> "Gene Douglas" <gene...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>>
>> Rachel Fine wrote in message
><19981205.093833...@juno.com>...
>> :
>> :I think you misunderstand autism. Spasticity is not part of the
>autistic
>> :spectrum; if there is spasticity, then there is something else going
>on
>> :as well as autism. Stereotyped movements are not an *inability* to
>move
>> :muscles.
>> :
>> :Actually, what you are describing above appears to be related more to
>> :profound mental retardation than to autism. The two are not the
>same.
>> :
>> :Rachel
>>
>> In the Frontline production, some of those shown weren't even looking
>at the
>> monitor or the keyboard. They were leaning backward with heads turned
>to
>> the side, arms contorted, and apparently ignoring the activity.
>
>Ah, okay. That doesn't necessarily mean that the pose shown is their
>habitual pose. These children were being "helped" to participate in an
>activity that they weren't necessarily interested in, and that may have
>held no meaning for them. That pose could have been the result of an
>attempt to communicate "I don't want to *play* this game, lemme *go*."
>Think of an infant being placed into a shopping cart seat when he doesn't
>want to go--he arches his back and stiffens his body. I wonder how much
>"help" (i.e., force) those facilitators were applying to hold the
>stiffened arm to the keyboard. It could have been the child's solution
>(looking somewhere else that might have held more interest, or zoning
>out, and not particularly participating in the bodily manipulation) to
>being trained that he/she had to remain in contact with the facilitator
>and allow the facilitator to move the arm. It could have been a
>tactile-defensive reaction to a situation in which touch was inescapable.
> It could have been oppositional. It could have been any number of
>things. I don't know the particular children, so I don't know what it
>was. But if these kids were typical autistic kids, it is not likely to
>have been the result of physical inability to move or control movements.
>
>Rachel
MH
somewhere. Oh well, click.
John M Price PhD wrote in message <366afe22.0@calwebnnrp>...
>In alt.support.autism Gene Douglas <gene...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>: While we're at it, there was a phenomenal treatment for dyslexia several
>: years ago. Colored glasses. Has anybody heard of this lately?
>
>Irlen lenses. I commented on that too, along with homeopathy.
>
>I don't know how to blind for a study of it.
>
>
>
>: John M Price PhD wrote in message <366ac11d.0@calwebnnrp>...
>: :In sci.psychology.psychotherapy Gene Douglas <gene...@prodigy.net>
wrote:
>: :
>: :: It's been five years, so I'm not certain. But I thought I remembered
a
>: :: bobbing of the head, perhaps misshapen faces and teeth reminiscent of
>: :: certain retarded children. But then, I also thought I remembered
Morie
>: :: Safer, so go figure.
>: :
>: :Morley. I think you did. I think they too did a segment on the stuff.
>: :20/20 was where I first heard of it, prior to the Frontline.
>
>: :John M. Price, PhD
jmp...@calweb.com
>
>
>
>
>
>--
>John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
>Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or by finger!
> Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
>Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683
>
MH
Rachel Fine wrote in message <19981206.105723....@juno.com>...
>On Sun, 6 Dec 1998 08:36:13 -0600, "Gene Douglas" <gene...@prodigy.net>
>wrote:
>>Rachel Fine wrote in message
><19981205.182810....@juno.com>...
>> : "Gene Douglas" <gene...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>> :>
>> :> In the Frontline production, some of those shown weren't even
>looking
>> :at the
>> :> monitor or the keyboard. They were leaning backward with heads
>turned
>> :to
>> :> the side, arms contorted, and apparently ignoring the activity.
>> :
>> :Ah, okay. That doesn't necessarily mean that the pose shown is their
>> :habitual pose. These children were being "helped" to participate in
>an
>> :activity that they weren't necessarily interested in, and that may
>have
>> :held no meaning for them. That pose could have been the result of an
>> :attempt to communicate "I don't want to *play* this game, lemme *go*."
>>
>>As they ignored the process, they produced beautiful prose.
>
>The evidence shows that it was not the autistic child who produced that
>prose.
>
>> :Think of an infant being placed into a shopping cart seat when he
>doesn't
>> :want to go--he arches his back and stiffens his body. I wonder how
>much
>> :"help" (i.e., force) those facilitators were applying to hold the
>> :stiffened arm to the keyboard. It could have been the child's
>solution
>> :(looking somewhere else that might have held more interest, or zoning
>> :out, and not particularly participating in the bodily manipulation) to
>> :being trained that he/she had to remain in contact with the
>facilitator
>> :and allow the facilitator to move the arm. It could have been a
>> :tactile-defensive reaction to a situation in which touch was
>inescapable.
>> : It could have been oppositional. It could have been any number of
>> :things. I don't know the particular children, so I don't know what it
>> :was. But if these kids were typical autistic kids, it is not likely
>to
>> :have been the result of physical inability to move or control
>movements.
>> :
>> :Rachel
>>
>>One would think that is what FC is all about. That the kid can't
>control
>>his hand well enough to use a keyboard, so the facilitator steadies out
>the
>>wobbling, and allows the more consistent force to predominate.
>
>That's supposed to be the theory. Might actually work for literate
>people of normal intelligence stricken by palsy. That isn't the autistic
>person's problem, tho.
>
>>It's been five years, so I'm not certain. But I thought I remembered a
>>bobbing of the head, perhaps misshapen faces and teeth reminiscent of
>>certain retarded children. But then, I also thought I remembered Morie
>>Safer, so go figure.
>
>Autistic kids typically show frequent stereotyped movements, which are
>self-stimulatory in nature, and not the result of lack of motor control
>(unless there is another condition that is affecting motor control).
>Autism is often related to mental retardation, but, in most cases,
>severe/profound levels of mental retardation (which is where you see most
>of the inabilty to control body movements associated with lack of
>executive control over motor functions) will preclude a diagnosis of
>autism.
>
>Most autistic persons are not physically deformed. What looked like a
>misshapen head may have been some sort of habitual grimace that made the
>person's face and head look strange to you, and which you encoded into
>your memory as "misshapen."
>
>Autistic kids, along with the rocking and flapping, that many show and
>which you appear to be attributing to lack of motor control, will show
>incredibly adept fine motor manipulation in other ways (eg., lining up
>small items in perfectly straight lines, causing all sorts of items to
>spin like tops, picking sores in their skin, etc.). It's not that they
>are unable to hit a particular typewriter key on their own.
>