Opinion of Autistic people!
PeaceTail
Opinions are of a great value - they tell us how your fellow human been
feels about things. This makes it easy to understand each-other better -
and so we can remain in peace with each-other, despite our differences.
So please feel free to express your opinions?
--
Philip,
een vriend.
(a friend)
Kalen
> Dear Autistic posters,
>
> Opinions are of a great value - they tell us how your fellow human been
> feels about things. This makes it easy to understand each-other better -
> and so we can remain in peace with each-other, despite our differences.
>
> So please feel free to express your opinions?
That's what we do here every day.
PeaceTail
PeaceTail
Kalen
> I tought someone might say this :)
Well I don't know what other kind of response you might have been
looking for. Your message seemed a bit odd to me, telling us to carry on
doing what we always do. ;-)
Kalen
Tim Bruening
PeaceTail wrote:
> Dear Autistic posters,
>
> Opinions are of a great value - they tell us how your fellow human been
> feels about things. This makes it easy to understand each-other better -
> and so we can remain in peace with each-other, despite our differences.
>
> So please feel free to express your opinions?
We should abolish nuclear weapons, end the Israeli occupation of the West
Bank and Gaza strip, end corporate welfare, and switch from fossil fuels to
solar, wind, biofuels, geothermal, and ocean thermal.
Gareeth
"PeaceTail" <fa44...@skynet.be> wrote in message
news:3ebebd58$0$26716$ba62...@reader1.news.skynet.be...
> So please feel free to express your opinions?
Why are you telling us to express our opinions? People already are.
Gareeth
Hussin
news:3ebebd58$0$26716$ba62...@reader1.news.skynet.be...
I insult people and I'm insensitive, etc. At least that's what NT people
tell me from time to time. I heard that a lot more when I was younger. The
worst part is that they usually say stuff like that behind my back like they
don't have the guts to say it to my face. That's kind of why I gave up on
worrying about other people's opinions.
Rynosseros The Ineluctable
wrote:
He is *questioning* you to express your opinion.
Gareeth
"Rynosseros The Ineluctable" <avoidin...@eotworld.com> wrote in message
news:divtbv0urq6r2rtjg...@4ax.com...
>
> He is *questioning* you to express your opinion.
>
A question mark does not make a statement a question.
Gareeth
Rynosseros The Ineluctable
wrote:
I know. Please check whether the ability to be facetious is precluded
by AS.
Terry Jones
>feels about things. This makes it easy to understand each-other better -
>and so we can remain in peace with each-other, despite our differences.
>
>So please feel free to express your opinions?
But also be prepared to have your opinions *questioned*, and being
asked to back them up.
Not only are a quite a few people here rather pedantic (and some even
a little opinionated <g>), but a lot of us have also been the victims
of other peoples' *inaccurate* opinions and beliefs.
Looking at the wider world, I'm not sure that just being *aware* of
other peoples' opinions makes for peace - Consider the "Western" &
Islamic world situation for example. "Westerners" may be *aware* of
negative "feelings" about them, but without understanding the *why*,
this does nothing to contribute to peace. If anything it may result in
an equally "feeling" based (ie. emotional) reaction.
Generally I think that discussion is a good thing, but it needs to be
done honestly, and people need to be able to support the views that
they are proposing, otherwise you just get futile circular arguments.
Terry
Rayvyn
"Kalen"
But do you only do it here? In the newsgroup?
Do you tell people in your real life?
I ask this because that is the biggest problem I have in my marriage. My
hubby has AS and he refuses outright to communicate with anyone.
Even right now he and mum are in a huge arguement because he refused to
listen or properly state his case.
Prior to that he refused to communicate with me and told me he did not wish
to continue with 'this arguement'.
I was left wondering what freaking arguement! This of course MAKES me
arguementitive because I am totally at a loss and he won't straight out
answer a question.
I live on a constantly turning Merry Go Round of this kind of (for want of
better term) crap.
Please if you all only do this here, 'take it outside!' LOL
PeaceTail
That's easy said, but not easy don!
I can't go out there, and say what I think. Its hard to understand people
like it is here.
Its like I fall a sleep in every long duration of a conversation or
argument. Even here I often sneak past some postings - Marking them as
read, so I wont have to read always continuously.
Outside I find myself in a social jungle, and I freak out. Sometimes even
wanting to cry like a little baby.
PeaceTail
PeaceTail
PeaceTail
HUG HUG HUG HUG HUG HUG HUG HUG HUG HUG HUG HUG HUG HUG HUG HUG HUG HUG HUG
HUG HUG HUG HUG HUG
:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
PeaceTail
cuddle :)
:p I learned a new word today :)
PeaceTail
I think we all share this trouble with NT, cause I suffer it also. :(
PeaceTail
Kalen
> "Kalen"
>
>>Well I don't know what other kind of response you might have been
>>looking for. Your message seemed a bit odd to me, telling us to carry on
>>doing what we always do. ;-)
>
> But do you only do it here? In the newsgroup?
No.
> Do you tell people in your real life?
Yes. Not all the time, but certainly sometimes.
> I ask this because that is the biggest problem I have in my marriage. My
> hubby has AS and he refuses outright to communicate with anyone.
"Refuses outright to communicat" might not be an appropriate description
for someone with a communication disorder.
> I was left wondering what freaking arguement! This of course MAKES me
> arguementitive because I am totally at a loss and he won't straight out
> answer a question.
Perhaps he *can't*. Gees, the guy's autistic. About half of autistics
can't even talk. Give him a break!
> Please if you all only do this here, 'take it outside!' LOL
It's not that easy.
Kalen
Rayvyn
I have a cat and he sleeps with me and comforts me where my AS hubby does
not.
I often feel like I am having a better 'marriage' with my cat than with my
hubby...
Sad isn't it :(
"PeaceTail" <fa44...@skynet.be> wrote in message
news:3ebf953a$0$26718$ba62...@reader1.news.skynet.be...
Rayvyn
"Kalen"
> "Refuses outright to communicat" might not be an appropriate description
> for someone with a communication disorder.
Give him space, give him time and give him any other thing he says he wants
and/or needs to communicate and he still makes no attempts.
I feel in this case it is totally appropriate to say he refuses outright to
do so.
I also have a problem with communication, but I do attempt to open up or try
to hear other people etc. I am NO social butterfly!
I however do expect that between two married people there needs to be and
should be able to be an expected amount of communication however it is
arrived at.
> Perhaps he *can't*. Gees, the guy's autistic. About half of autistics
> can't even talk. Give him a break!
Hmmm I am sorry if you do not intend it this way but I feel attacked by that
comment.
Words are not the only form of communication.
I think if you only knew how many breaks he has been, and continues to be,
given over the last 8 years you would not even think to say that.
> It's not that easy.
I have to ask, do you think Autistic people are the only people with social
problems?
I do not find it all that easy either but I do make an attempt to do it.
Do you feel that sitting back and hiding behind a condition/label/anything
else you want to call it is a good thing to do? Do you not think that it is
a good thing to at least give it a try if you can? (can being defined here
as having use of vocal cords and an intelligent brain)
Robin May
news:3ebf9e8f$0$16256$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au
>
> "Kalen"
>> "Refuses outright to communicat" might not be an appropriate
>> description for someone with a communication disorder.
>
> Give him space, give him time and give him any other thing he says
> he wants and/or needs to communicate and he still makes no
> attempts. I feel in this case it is totally appropriate to say he
> refuses outright to do so.
> I also have a problem with communication, but I do attempt to open
> up or try to hear other people etc. I am NO social butterfly!
> I however do expect that between two married people there needs to
> be and should be able to be an expected amount of communication
> however it is arrived at.
Did he communicate with you more before you got married?
>> It's not that easy.
>
> I have to ask, do you think Autistic people are the only people
> with social problems?
> I do not find it all that easy either but I do make an attempt to
> do it. Do you feel that sitting back and hiding behind a
> condition/label/anything else you want to call it is a good thing
> to do? Do you not think that it is a good thing to at least give
> it a try if you can? (can being defined here as having use of
> vocal cords and an intelligent brain)
That's not a very good definition of "can".
And if someone can't communicate with you then they aren't sitting back
and hiding behind a label, they're just unable to communicate with you.
--
message by Robin May, living the life of an international loverman
To reply by email, modify northcircular in the following ways: Delete
the N at the start. Replace it with an X. Replace all instances of i
with b. Replace all Xs with Ns. Replace all Bs with Is.
growi...@hotmail.com
> I have to ask, do you think Autistic people are the only people with social
> problems?
No, but generally we have worse problems. It is part of the reason
we are diagnosed - it affects our lives in a significant way, while
noraml "social problems" do not. The psychologists realized that
when they wrote that part of the autism criteria that NTs (neurotypicals)
also have quite a range of social ability, but that autistic social
ability warranted a special mention because it is outside that NT range.
> I do not find it all that easy either but I do make an attempt to do it.
> Do you feel that sitting back and hiding behind a condition/label/anything
> else you want to call it is a good thing to do? Do you not think that it is
> a good thing to at least give it a try if you can? (can being defined here
> as having use of vocal cords and an intelligent brain)
He may be giving it a try - and STILL not being able to communicate
that much. As for hiding behind a label, I doubt any autistic's
communication problems are simply "hiding behind a label" anymore then
most in a wheelchair aren't running a traditional marathon - that is
not hiding behind a label, either, but a reflection of disability.
Autistics have a social disability, among others. Why should the
person in a wheelchair be forced to try to run a marathon? If he
wants to try, so be it, and I'm happy for him. If he doesn't, so be
it, and I'm happy for him - there isn't special merit in doing things
that you do badly, hurt you, or take a lot of energy.
Now, I'm not saying he is the perfect husband. I very much doubt that
he is. But I'm also saying that I've had these things said about me.
It seems people have a hard time reconciling "major neurological
problems" with "high intelligence". But they can both be present.
--
Joel
Rayvyn
"Stephen Horne"
> ACs also have particular problems with communication and with
> discussing feelings - partly just the facts of ASDs and partly the
> result of past experiences.
Oh he has no trouble at all saying what he wants when he wants.
> Perhaps your husband is unable to communicate in the way you want - or
> perhaps it would be an extremely painful thing that he is simply not
> ready for.
I can accept he will never be able to communicate in the way I have always
seen as the way married people do. I do however refuse to accept that he has
no way at all of communicating with me. (knowing the man and the beast as I
do that is)
Past experiences I can get him to talk about no matter how painfull they
are, which is why I find it very hard to understand a lack of willingness to
talk about NOW.
> In an NT/AC marriage I imagine it is doubly important for both
> partners, as far as they are able, to try to understand such
> differences as they will probably be greatly exaggerated in such
> cases. And there should be consideration for the fact that the AC
> partner may be far less able to adapt.
This is what frustrates me so much. I seem to make all the concessions and
I guess it has just gotten to a point where I am not sure I can make any
more...
> Hoping that you can find a balance that suits both of your needs.
Thank you for your response and well wishes :)
Kalen
> "Kalen"
>
>>"Refuses outright to communicat" might not be an appropriate description
>>for someone with a communication disorder.
>
> Give him space, give him time and give him any other thing he says he wants
> and/or needs to communicate and he still makes no attempts.
Maybe he doesn't want to or have anything he feels the need to
communicate. Does he use computers? If so, have you ever suggested he
e-mail you?
> I feel in this case it is totally appropriate to say he refuses outright to
> do so.
Well obviously you feel that way or you wouldn't have said it (I
presume). But I can tell you the same is said about me often enough and
it's not true in my case.
> I have to ask, do you think Autistic people are the only people with social
> problems?
Did I say that? Nope. How is it relevant, though? I don't get it.
Whether or not someone else has a problem doesn't change whether I (or
in this case, your husband) have one.
> I do not find it all that easy either but I do make an attempt to do it.
Well good for you. Again, relevance? Are you assuming that because it's
not easy for you and not easy for him that your difficulties are identical?
> Do you feel that sitting back and hiding behind a condition/label/anything
> else you want to call it is a good thing to do?
Sometimes.
> Do you not think that it is
> a good thing to at least give it a try if you can? (can being defined here
> as having use of vocal cords and an intelligent brain)
How do you know whether he's trying or not? If you communicate with him
anything like you have in these last two posts, I'm not surprised he
finds it difficult to respond.
Kalen
Rayvyn
"Stephen Horne"
> Social stress and anxiety happens in many situations - many anxiety
> disorders, mood disorders and personality disorders for instance. Due
> to bad experiences, many autistics have these problems IN ADDITION TO
> the autism.
Just as many NTs would have these problems without the autism LOL
I do not discount the autism and I have studied it in depth because both
hubby and my son (light of my life) have AS.
My son however does talk to me LOL I am sure you can appreciate that that
makes hubby's case more frustrating... (yes I know each is an individual...)
> Autistics are also, broadly speaking, the only group for which some
> get very little or no psychological or emotional benefit from sharing
> their feelings. You may feel better for sharing your feelings despite
> any problems getting to that stage, and therefore you see this sharing
> as a beneficial issue, but it is possible that he might not.
Actually I find sharing my feelings to be dangerous and almost impossible
due to my experiences and own 'shortcomings' etc etc
I know when he does talk he finds relief, it is simply a matter of
remembering this to be the case...
> Next, if he does not communicate - if you don't know what his feelings
> and his past experiences were like - then how do you know that it is
> fair to compare your difficulties to his? Eight years of hoping for
> the situation to change must be very frustrating, but how do you know
> that this is enough time?
He talks about his past quite readily and always has, sometimes gives too
much detail LOL
Our upbringing is vastly different but our social problems are quite alike.
Time... Always was my fave Culture Club song...
> Finally, autism doesn't go away over time or because stress levels are
> reduced. Trust is not at the core of autistic communication
> difficulties. He may not even understand what his feelings are well
> enough to explain them.
Sometimes he does and sometimes he doesn't, just like me. Either I am not
NT as the world has thus far believed or he is not as AS as he could
otherwise be.
Trust however is at the core of any marriage, it is a lack of trust in what
I say, my opinions or any research etc I present him with that causes a
great deal of our problems.
He admits to not being able to read people, to being easily lead etc. He
even asks for my help, but when I give it he treats it with extreame lack of
trust.
Is this a common AS trait?
Not believing what those closest to you and who care the most about you have
to say?
> There is a common analogy that views autistic people as normal people
> struggling to escape from a shell. IT IS A FALSE ANALOGY. Anxiety and
> other problems notwithstanding, what you see is generally what you
> get.
Oh my hubby has sides he does not show. He is a very good liar (not in the
sense that he fools me but he fools himself) and has a darkside that has
also caused problems.
My son on the other hand has yet to learn these things and I hope to prevent
any chance of it in the future. Getting people to understand that my son
simply does not make shit up (yes I have used that term in the past) is
almost impossible.
> Perhaps you need to realise that these difficulties need not imply a
> lack of trust or any kind of rejection of you.
Sometimes I understand this, other times it is indeed a rejection of me and
a lack of trust.
AS people can also have times of clarity and pecievably NT times (may just
be 30 seconds!) where you can not just discount everything they say or do as
an AS trait. I have seen it in many AS people over the last 8 years.
> Or perhaps I don't know what I'm talking about - I just wanted to make
> some points you may not be aware of.
>
I am sure you know what you are talking about, as do I lol
That is what makes life so interesting, taking the time to see another side
and someone else's point of view.
Thank you for taking the time to share yours!
Robin May
news:3EBFBE77...@paradox.freeserve.co.uk
> How do you know whether he's trying or not? If you communicate
> with him anything like you have in these last two posts, I'm not
> surprised he finds it difficult to respond.
To elaborate on this, people have tried the "TALK TO ME! WHY ARE YOU
NOT COMMUNICATING WITH ME? EXPLAIN YOURSELF!" method with me, and if
there was any hope of me communicating before that then it's completely
gone afterwards. It reduces me to a terrified state where I can just
about answer yes or no questions with grunts and can't really say
anything I would want to say, partly because I'm too afraid to say it,
partly because I'm so panicked and scared that I can't even assemble
any thoughts inside my mind, let alone turn them into words.
Rayvyn
<growi...@hotmail.com>
> No, but generally we have worse problems. It is part of the reason
> we are diagnosed - it affects our lives in a significant way, while
> noraml "social problems" do not. The psychologists realized that
> when they wrote that part of the autism criteria that NTs (neurotypicals)
> also have quite a range of social ability, but that autistic social
> ability warranted a special mention because it is outside that NT range.
I can understand where you are coming from. Sometimes though a NT may be
just as socially inept, unaware or problematic as an AS and NOT have any
other traits to distinguish them for diagnosis as AS.
Possibly why so many people fall through cracks in many areas of diagnosis
as people tend to look for most or all and not at just one or two and offer
help for those problems.
> He may be giving it a try - and STILL not being able to communicate
> that much. As for hiding behind a label, I doubt any autistic's
> communication problems are simply "hiding behind a label" anymore then
> most in a wheelchair aren't running a traditional marathon - that is
> not hiding behind a label, either, but a reflection of disability.
> Autistics have a social disability, among others. Why should the
> person in a wheelchair be forced to try to run a marathon? If he
> wants to try, so be it, and I'm happy for him.
I am not accusing people of doing so, but simply saying it can be the case.
I will tell you why I say this.
Hubby did not know he had AS until he was 21, we were already married and
had a child on the way. Before then and until 6-12 months after the fact we
still communicated on a level I felt was just fine. ('I' being female,
pressumed NT and married)
Then he started backing out and he indeed was using the AS diagnosis (well
his mother finally told him at 21, no doctors involved) to hide from any
real conversations.
Now perhaps he was uncomfortable all along prior to this? Perhaps he was
fighting against 'nature' but he was atleast doing so.
Since being told 'what his problem is' he has backed away from all attempts
to try and get through.
>If he doesn't, so be
> it, and I'm happy for him - there isn't special merit in doing things
> that you do badly, hurt you, or take a lot of energy.
I can understand where you are coming from, but I still find it poor excuse
when someone was communicating in a relatively normal capacity and then
chose to shut that down after being told they had certain problems and they
SHOULD be a certain way.
> Now, I'm not saying he is the perfect husband. I very much doubt that
> he is. But I'm also saying that I've had these things said about me.
No one is perfect, I am not the perfect wife, neither exists.
I am sorry if you have had them said unjustly.
> It seems people have a hard time reconciling "major neurological
> problems" with "high intelligence". But they can both be present.
I have no problems with this at all.
Kalen
>
> Oh he has no trouble at all saying what he wants when he wants.
Are you sure about that? Just because he's well able to say some things
some of the time doesn't mean it's everything he wants to say all the
time he wants to say it.
> I can accept he will never be able to communicate in the way I have always
> seen as the way married people do. I do however refuse to accept that he has
> no way at all of communicating with me. (knowing the man and the beast as I
> do that is)
That may be, but you may need to alter your approach. You seem very
frustrated about this issue at the moment. It might be better to let it
rest for now, if you can, and work on it again later. Your emotional
state and frustration with him make exacerbate his problems. (This
*definitely* applies to me. I become completely paralyzed by excessive
emotion or pressure in my direction.) This is not a universal AS thing,
by the way. My partner and friend (both AS) have no such problems and
find it difficult to impossible to understand those of us who do.
> Past experiences I can get him to talk about no matter how painfull they
> are, which is why I find it very hard to understand a lack of willingness to
> talk about NOW.
I find I can talk about things I have already worked out. Whether
they're thoughts, feelings, opinions, whatever. If a spontaneous *new*
response is required, I become very tongue-tied, but when talking about
familiar subjects (which I do most of the time) I give the impression of
being very articulate and intelligent. The past emotional content of
something is pretty much irrelevant to me in almost all circumstances.
Kalen
sggaB the Slug
>> "Refuses outright to communicat" might not be an appropriate description
>> for someone with a communication disorder.
> Give him space, give him time and give him any other thing he says he wants
> and/or needs to communicate and he still makes no attempts.
Difficulty initiating communication (or a whole lot of complex actions) is
a classic autistic difficulty, and has nothing to do with whether he's
attempting or not. If he is attempting to communicate, his attempts may
not even be visible because they may not get from his brain to his mouth.
> I feel in this case it is totally appropriate to say he refuses outright to
> do so.
Based on the previous sentence, it would seem true that someone might
assume that, but not necessarily true that this *is* what's going on.
>> It's not that easy.
> I have to ask, do you think Autistic people are the only people with social
> problems?
No, but nobody said we were.
> I do not find it all that easy either but I do make an attempt to do it.
And he might be, too. Or he might not. But the lack of a visible attempt
does not mean the lack of an attempt.
> Do you feel that sitting back and hiding behind a condition/label/anything
> else you want to call it is a good thing to do? Do you not think that it is
> a good thing to at least give it a try if you can? (can being defined here
> as having use of vocal cords and an intelligent brain)
That definition of "can" doesn't work, for *anything*.
See:
http://www.autistics.org/library/inertia.html
--
sggaB
Autistic Spectrum Code, v1.0
AA! dpu s-:+ a-- c+(++) p(+) t--- f--- S--(++)@ p?@ e-(+)@ h- r--@ n--
i++ P m--(++)@ M
Kalen
> Funny you should say that...
> I have a cat and he sleeps with me and comforts me where my AS hubby does
> not.
> I often feel like I am having a better 'marriage' with my cat than with my
> hubby...
> Sad isn't it :(
Don't suppose you want to borrow my AS hubby for a while? He's entirely
too cuddly for my liking. Had to practically beat him off with a stick
last night.
Kalen
Rayvyn
"Robin May"
> Did he communicate with you more before you got married?
Indeed he did, and that was also before his mother decided to finally tell
him he had been diagnosed with AS many years prior. From that moment he
began the shut down.
> And if someone can't communicate with you then they aren't sitting back
> and hiding behind a label, they're just unable to communicate with you.
I appologise to you but you not knowing the person in question, and all
people being different, I can say that people do just that and will do just
that. I have witnessed it many times in my life.
My dad for instance refused to see the DR for ten years even though we all
knew there was something wrong in the realm of Dementure.
Finally he saw a DR who told him what his problem was and a month later he
was dead. He gave up any semblance of fight or life he previously had held
on to.
My hubby has basically done the same with regard to the AS.
I hear all the time about 'forming coping strategies'. Well that is great
and I am all for it, but what I am not for is the letting go of said
strategies because suddenly you know why you had to form them to begin with.
I can only see that as hiding behind and giving up to the AS label.
If you can offer somethign else please do.
I am here for help, guidance etc just as I assume everyone else is.
Kalen
> "Stephen Horne"
>
>>Social stress and anxiety happens in many situations - many anxiety
>>disorders, mood disorders and personality disorders for instance. Due
>>to bad experiences, many autistics have these problems IN ADDITION TO
>>the autism.
>
> Just as many NTs would have these problems without the autism LOL
No. Autistic people are at higher risk of most of those.
> My son however does talk to me LOL I am sure you can appreciate that that
> makes hubby's case more frustrating... (yes I know each is an individual...)
As I mentioned in another post (now I see it was unnecessary because you
knew), my partner and friend do not have the communication problems I
do. They have different ones.
> I know when he does talk he finds relief, it is simply a matter of
> remembering this to be the case...
But knowing that it will make him feel better, yet not pressuring him
*at all* in case it makes it impossible for him, must be hard for you. I
have to be cued to talk in very specific ways I don't think I could
explain. There's a very fine line between encouragement and pressure and
another between giving space and ignoring/being unavailable.
> Sometimes he does and sometimes he doesn't, just like me. Either I am not
> NT as the world has thus far believed or he is not as AS as he could
> otherwise be.
There are various causes for similar effects.
> Trust however is at the core of any marriage, it is a lack of trust in what
> I say, my opinions or any research etc I present him with that causes a
> great deal of our problems.
I wouldn't take believing or agreeing with someone's opinions or
research or whatever as a trust issue. Facts and opinions are completely
different from trust.
> Is this a common AS trait?
> Not believing what those closest to you and who care the most about you have
> to say?
If you're talking about facts and opinions and research and stuff then I
think it is. I don't believe in just believing what people say without
researching and understanding it myself so I can form my own opinion. If
the person in question has a very good history of doing good research of
their own, or tending to come to the same conclusions I do, then I would
be more likely to believe them without having to look it up myself. But
what any of that has to do with trust or caring is completely beyond me.
> My son on the other hand has yet to learn these things and I hope to prevent
> any chance of it in the future.
Good luck! I'd like to prevent my children ever being violent, cruel,
prejudiced, or lying, but I'm dealing with real people here and that
just isn't going to happen.
> Sometimes I understand this, other times it is indeed a rejection of me and
> a lack of trust.
But you seem to have a funny definition of trust that includes what I
would call "blind faith".
> AS people can also have times of clarity and pecievably NT times (may just
> be 30 seconds!) where you can not just discount everything they say or do as
> an AS trait. I have seen it in many AS people over the last 8 years.
I should hope you never discount what someone says or does on the basis
of their disability! (let alone *everything*!)
Kalen
Kalen
>
> To elaborate on this, people have tried the "TALK TO ME! WHY ARE YOU
> NOT COMMUNICATING WITH ME? EXPLAIN YOURSELF!" method with me, and if
> there was any hope of me communicating before that then it's completely
> gone afterwards. It reduces me to a terrified state where I can just
> about answer yes or no questions with grunts and can't really say
> anything I would want to say, partly because I'm too afraid to say it,
> partly because I'm so panicked and scared that I can't even assemble
> any thoughts inside my mind, let alone turn them into words.
Yes, exactly! I just had a similar incident with Ian where he was trying
to force me into acting. I ended up a quivering, crying (I'm hormonal)
mess hiding under the blanket. That just aggravated him and made him
worse. I'm the same with acting as I am with communication. I just can't
do it under pressure, and it's very easy for me to feel pressured.
Kalen
Kalen
>
> I can understand where you are coming from. Sometimes though a NT may be
> just as socially inept, unaware or problematic as an AS and NOT have any
> other traits to distinguish them for diagnosis as AS.
Have you heard of NLD (nonverbal learning disability)? It's a rather
varied condition which can include a lot of the social difficulties of
AS without necessarily the communication and obsessiveness traits.
> Now perhaps he was uncomfortable all along prior to this? Perhaps he was
> fighting against 'nature' but he was atleast doing so.
> Since being told 'what his problem is' he has backed away from all attempts
> to try and get through.
This is also years later, right? Maybe things have changed. Maybe he
feels more stressed or tired of fighting his nature all the time. Maybe
he has regressed and communication is actually more difficult for him
now; it happens.
Kalen
Rayvyn
"Kalen"
> Maybe he doesn't want to or have anything he feels the need to
> communicate. Does he use computers? If so, have you ever suggested he
> e-mail you?
We have a network set up at home. He is a computer nut, his specialised area
of interest I would say LOL
We have MSN and he hates me 'bothering him' by messaging him on it even if
it is to say the house is on fire!
I have suggested email b4 but he just ignores me.
> Well obviously you feel that way or you wouldn't have said it (I
> presume). But I can tell you the same is said about me often enough and
> it's not true in my case.
I have had the same said of myself also and it has been both true and false
at different times.
> Did I say that? Nope. How is it relevant, though? I don't get it.
> Whether or not someone else has a problem doesn't change whether I (or
> in this case, your husband) have one.
It changes the ideal that how he presents to me is not how I see it to be
and it is just a trait of AS.
> Well good for you. Again, relevance? Are you assuming that because it's
> not easy for you and not easy for him that your difficulties are
identical?
Are you assuming that they are not in any way akin?
Are you assuming that people pressumed NT with social distress akin to AS
are in no way similar to you or anyone else?
> How do you know whether he's trying or not? If you communicate with him
> anything like you have in these last two posts, I'm not surprised he
> finds it difficult to respond.
LOL Text shows nothing about a person or how they communicate.
Understanding of text, written by someone else, at your end shows nothing
about how you communicate either.
I know because I know my hubby. I know because I have lived my whole life
watching other people, taking in body language and looking into all manners
of things that do or do not make people tick. I can clearly see someone who
has a case of 'mind blank', or just plain old 'hiding something'
Hubby has many times accused me of reading his mind, I would take that to
mean I have a pretty darn good understanding of how he thinks.
Also having a conversation online about a subject that is important to me is
very different from day to day communication on a base level between a
husband and a wife.
I do not think you can read anything from my online and take it to mean it
is the same as my offline communication.
Kalen
> "Robin May"
>
>>Did he communicate with you more before you got married?
>
> Indeed he did, and that was also before his mother decided to finally tell
> him he had been diagnosed with AS many years prior. From that moment he
> began the shut down.
Did he ever get any help such as counselling to deal with his diagnosis?
It's a major thing, sending many people into years of depression or
various complex cycles of emotions.
> My hubby has basically done the same with regard to the AS.
> I hear all the time about 'forming coping strategies'. Well that is great
> and I am all for it, but what I am not for is the letting go of said
> strategies because suddenly you know why you had to form them to begin with.
> I can only see that as hiding behind and giving up to the AS label.
I see it as relaxing after a lifetime of fighting one's brain every
second of the day in an impossible struggle to be normal.
Kalen
Rayvyn
"Robin May"
> To elaborate on this, people have tried the "TALK TO ME! WHY ARE YOU
> NOT COMMUNICATING WITH ME? EXPLAIN YOURSELF!" method with me, and if
> there was any hope of me communicating before that then it's completely
> gone afterwards. It reduces me to a terrified state where I can just
> about answer yes or no questions with grunts and can't really say
> anything I would want to say, partly because I'm too afraid to say it,
> partly because I'm so panicked and scared that I can't even assemble
> any thoughts inside my mind, let alone turn them into words.
I myself have been there Robin, and several times quite recently.
(joke) would you say my hubby and son's AS is rubbing off on me? (/joke)
I have literally been unable to string a sentence together, been visually
upset and verbally so and had the people in question bombard me with little
or no sign of letting up despite my obvious problems and distress.
I got so I wanted to crawl under the table and die and the next time one of
these people tried to corner me I resorted to hiding outside the school
building and sending hubby in to pick up my son.
I so totally understand this problem, but I am not sure anyone here has yet
seen that I do. Maybe you will now I have given example?
Rayvyn
"Kalen"
> Are you sure about that? Just because he's well able to say some things
> some of the time doesn't mean it's everything he wants to say all the
> time he wants to say it.
And this makes him, you or me any different from anyone else how?
> That may be, but you may need to alter your approach. You seem very
> frustrated about this issue at the moment. It might be better to let it
> rest for now, if you can, and work on it again later. Your emotional
> state and frustration with him make exacerbate his problems. (This
> *definitely* applies to me. I become completely paralyzed by excessive
> emotion or pressure in my direction.) This is not a universal AS thing,
> by the way. My partner and friend (both AS) have no such problems and
> find it difficult to impossible to understand those of us who do.
OK One thing.. The internet is an outlet for me.
You see the frustration etc but he does not because I do not show it towards
him.
Everyone needs a release some time right?
To assume that what you see here is how I approach either my son or my hubby
is to assume wrongly.
I agree that the state you describe above is not a universal AS thing as I
apparently am NT but have the exact same problem.
> I find I can talk about things I have already worked out. Whether >
they're thoughts, feelings, opinions, whatever. If a spontaneous *new*
> response is required, I become very tongue-tied, but when talking about
> familiar subjects (which I do most of the time) I give the impression of
> being very articulate and intelligent. The past emotional content of
> something is pretty much irrelevant to me in almost all circumstances.
OK So the now being a problem, given a period of time to think anout it, do
you THEN have trouble giving a response?
Do you even bother to think on it or just forget about it thinking it will
just go away? How DO you react?
Rayvyn
"Kalen"
> Don't suppose you want to borrow my AS hubby for a while? He's entirely
> too cuddly for my liking. Had to practically beat him off with a stick
> last night.
Gosh no thanks! I actually prefer my cat! He knows when a smack across the
nose means no!
I like cuddly just fine but I HATE the unwanted sexual advances and constant
bombardment! My cat does not give me that trouble funny enough...
Kalen
>
> We have a network set up at home. He is a computer nut, his specialised area
> of interest I would say LOL
My partner's too. Our house is full of computers.
> We have MSN and he hates me 'bothering him' by messaging him on it even if
> it is to say the house is on fire!
I refuse to have any kind of messager because I would find it intrusive.
I can't cope with interruptions. House on fire? Stop telling me about it
and go tut it out! ;-)
> I have suggested email b4 but he just ignores me.
Have you e-mailed him? Start with something simple. It can be very hard
to initiate something new, and it can also be very hard to respond to
something very long, complex, or emotional.
>>Did I say that? Nope. How is it relevant, though? I don't get it.
>>Whether or not someone else has a problem doesn't change whether I (or
>>in this case, your husband) have one.
>
> It changes the ideal that how he presents to me is not how I see it to be
> and it is just a trait of AS.
I don't understand.
>>Well good for you. Again, relevance? Are you assuming that because it's
>>not easy for you and not easy for him that your difficulties are
>>identical?
>
> Are you assuming that they are not in any way akin?
No.
> Are you assuming that people pressumed NT with social distress akin to AS
> are in no way similar to you or anyone else?
No.
I'm still failing to see what your point is. My partner and I *both*
have severe social and communication problems due to AS, yet he does not
understand my problems which sound very much like your husband's. So I
don't see how whether another person has similar or different problems
has anything to do with understanding someone else's.
> I know because I know my hubby.
My partner knows me. That doesn't mean he knows what it's like inside my
mind.
> I know because I have lived my whole life
> watching other people, taking in body language and looking into all manners
> of things that do or do not make people tick.
Presumably 99% of those people were not AS, so your conclusions about
body language and whatnot would not apply to your husband.
> I can clearly see someone who
> has a case of 'mind blank', or just plain old 'hiding something'
Even if they have very non-standard body language?
> Hubby has many times accused me of reading his mind, I would take that to
> mean I have a pretty darn good understanding of how he thinks.
Sometimes.
> I do not think you can read anything from my online and take it to mean it
> is the same as my offline communication.
I did say "if", which means I don't know whether you do or not.
Kalen
sggaB the Slug
> He talks about his past quite readily and always has, sometimes gives too
> much detail LOL
It regularly takes me two years or more to be able to both figure out the
present and form words around it, by which time it's become the past.
Anyone attempting to force me to communicate faster is going to get
frustrated. Which is something you may want to keep in mind.
Robin May
news:3ebfc550$0$16256$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au
I wasn't really commenting either way on whether you understand it,
just relaying my own experience of that problem. I'm sorry if you've
been made to feel like that, it's truly awful and the terrible thing
about it is that because in that state you're so completely unable to
express yourself, you can't make people understand what's going on.
Kalen
> "Kalen"
>
>>Are you sure about that? Just because he's well able to say some things
>>some of the time doesn't mean it's everything he wants to say all the
>>time he wants to say it.
>
> And this makes him, you or me any different from anyone else how?
Where did I say that it was different from you? You seemed to be
implying that because he *can* say things when he 'wants' to that if
he's not communicating, he doesn't want to. Whether it's the same or
different from anyone else is irrelevant. However, I can tell you 100%
for sure that my problems with this (which sound very much like his) are
*not* typical. In fact saying "everyone does/feels/has trouble with
that" feels very much like minimising my problems, which are severe. NOT
everyone is like this or everyone would be disabled, which is patently
nonsense.
> OK One thing.. The internet is an outlet for me.
> You see the frustration etc but he does not because I do not show it towards
> him.
Are you sure it's not bad enough that he's noticed anyway? If you're
really not showing him any of it, then perhaps he doesn't realise how
important this issue is to you.
> Everyone needs a release some time right?
> To assume that what you see here is how I approach either my son or my hubby
> is to assume wrongly.
Sorry, I have nothing else to go on until you say otherwise.
> I agree that the state you describe above is not a universal AS thing as I
> apparently am NT but have the exact same problem.
By a "universal AS thing" I meant that it's not universal to AS. But if
you really have exactly the same problem, why are you incapable of
understanding it?
> OK So the now being a problem, given a period of time to think anout it, do
> you THEN have trouble giving a response?
That depends. It depends whether I've been asked to consider it, whether
it's important to me, whether it's something I *can* express even given
the time, and probably a number of other things I can't enumerate now
(have to cook for kids).
> Do you even bother to think on it or just forget about it thinking it will
> just go away? How DO you react?
If I forget about it then I'm not thinking it will go away, I've
forgotten it. Those aren't compatible as one is involuntary and the
other is deliberate. However, if it is a difficult issue I may not have
a response within what would normally be considered a reasonable time.
Kalen
Robin May
> I like cuddly just fine but I HATE the unwanted sexual advances
> and constant bombardment! My cat does not give me that trouble
> funny enough...
My God, it'd be extremely worrying if your cat did!
Rayvyn
"Kalen"
> As I mentioned in another post (now I see it was unnecessary because you
> knew), my partner and friend do not have the communication problems I
> do. They have different ones.
Nothing is ever unnecessary. It is always good to back each other up with
our own experiences or to see the differences in them as well.
> But knowing that it will make him feel better, yet not pressuring him
> *at all* in case it makes it impossible for him, must be hard for you. I
> have to be cued to talk in very specific ways I don't think I could >
explain. There's a very fine line between encouragement and pressure and
> another between giving space and ignoring/being unavailable.
Despite how I may or may not be coming across in text :) I am usually very
good at knowing how to talk to people. It is of course a face to face deal
though. We all take cues even if some can see them and understand them
better than others of us right.
> I wouldn't take believing or agreeing with someone's opinions or
> research or whatever as a trust issue. Facts and opinions are completely
> different from trust.
Oh I guess I should have added that I can say one thing one day and he tells
me I am full of shit, next day some stranger tells him and they are so
wonderfull for bringing him into the light!
It seriously is just THAT extream!
> If you're talking about facts and opinions and research and stuff then I
> think it is. I don't believe in just believing what people say without
> researching and understanding it myself so I can form my own opinion. If
> the person in question has a very good history of doing good research of
> their own, or tending to come to the same conclusions I do, then I would
> be more likely to believe them without having to look it up myself. But
> what any of that has to do with trust or caring is completely beyond me.
You get to know someone and get to know they only have your best interests
at heart you should also begin to trust them at their word on things they
say they can or can not do, not feel the need to question them every time
the issues arisses and trust that they will not lead you astray on anything.
When I say research I am talking about coming to this group, reading online
studies, other groups and offline doctors or references that may apply to
each individual situation at hand.
If the person you are doing it for (other than myself to gain a better
understanding) does NOTHING to help themselves better understand then it is
kind of hard to follow the way you work.
If you chose to sit back and do nothing and then tell those who only love
and care about you that they are full of shit but listen to a stranger or
someone who has bas intention on the same thing I do consider that a slight
against myself.
Hubby even admits he does this!
> Good luck! I'd like to prevent my children ever being violent, cruel,
> prejudiced, or lying, but I'm dealing with real people here and that
> just isn't going to happen.
Upbringing certaing plays a key role in this though don't you think?
My hubby was tought to lie, cheat and steal from an early age. It was the
only way he had of taking care of himself when those who should have been
failed.
My son has had a very different start to his life and it shows.
> But you seem to have a funny definition of trust that includes what I
> would call "blind faith".
Oh I certainly do not believe in 'Blind Faith' Another issue and contentious
at that, is the fact that I have shunned all organised religiouns due to
having no understanding of the 'fools' who seem to follow blindly the
tenants of who knows who or what.
But using this example, of course one should not follow blindly the words of
strangers, and people who's intent can not be known, however in a marriage
one should not have married the other if they find themselves totally unable
to have faith in the intent behind the other's actions.
> I should hope you never discount what someone says or does on the basis
> of their disability! (let alone *everything*!)
I certainly do not.
Rayvyn
"Kalen"
> Yes, exactly! I just had a similar incident with Ian where he was trying
> to force me into acting. I ended up a quivering, crying (I'm hormonal)
> mess hiding under the blanket. That just aggravated him and made him
> worse. I'm the same with acting as I am with communication. I just can't
> do it under pressure, and it's very easy for me to feel pressured.
Hubby gets right in my face and attacks me with words and then wonders why I
'wont' give him and answer. I get the same way so I have the ability to see
it in other as well.
I can see the difference between avoiding and being pushed into that state
though.
Rayvyn
"Kalen"
> Have you heard of NLD (nonverbal learning disability)? It's a rather
> varied condition which can include a lot of the social difficulties of
> AS without necessarily the communication and obsessiveness traits.
No I have not until just now.
There are so many conditions etc out there that you do tend to focus on
those that effect those you care about and casually browse through the
rest...
Not sure if you intend that as an idea for myself but I will say to counter
that I can be VERY obsessive in some areas. Even to the point of having
twitches and ticks I know are there but can not control, then one day they
will magically go away only to come back a few months or years later.
I will look it up :)
> This is also years later, right? Maybe things have changed. Maybe he
> feels more stressed or tired of fighting his nature all the time. Maybe
> he has regressed and communication is actually more difficult for him
> now; it happens.
I know it happens. Either way it doesn't help to prevent of releive
frustration from both sides.
Rayvyn
"Kalen"
> Did he ever get any help such as counselling to deal with his diagnosis?
> It's a major thing, sending many people into years of depression or
> various complex cycles of emotions.
Doctor and myself tried. He says he cant talk to them... End of story.
> I see it as relaxing after a lifetime of fighting one's brain every
> second of the day in an impossible struggle to be normal.
I can understand that idea.
I can also see the opposite where it is a relief to understand finally why
things have been the way they have and to fight against sliding because you
have come so far and it is now NORMAL to be where you are and not the way
you are told you should have been all along.
sggaB the Slug
>> Did he communicate with you more before you got married?
> Indeed he did, and that was also before his mother decided to finally tell
> him he had been diagnosed with AS many years prior. From that moment he
> began the shut down.
Oh. That's a very normal post-diagnostic reaction.
>> And if someone can't communicate with you then they aren't sitting back
>> and hiding behind a label, they're just unable to communicate with you.
> My hubby has basically done the same with regard to the AS.
> I hear all the time about 'forming coping strategies'. Well that is great
> and I am all for it, but what I am not for is the letting go of said
> strategies because suddenly you know why you had to form them to begin with.
> I can only see that as hiding behind and giving up to the AS label.
Then you're probably seeing it wrong.
What has most likely happened is he has been doing the equivalent of
running a marathon just to keep up with (or marginally behind) other
people. He may not have known he was doing it, and he may not have
noticed the strain it caused, because he probably thought that's just what
a person does to deal with the world.
Then someone tells him, "Hey, you're running really fast, and the rest of
us are walking or just standing here."
He suddenly sees that. And *not* because of anything particularly
deliberate, he finds that as soon as he has that knowledge he can't keep
running anymore. It has nothing to do with giving up. It's more the sort
of thing that happens when someone's been functioning way beyond their
capacity in an emergency situation, and finally the emergency is over.
It's involuntary.
My personal impression is that you come at this with the words that people
often apply to autistic people -- "trying", "deliberate", etc. -- when
really what is going on is something is happening and you can't see what
else it could be *but* trying or deliberate, despite the fact that there
are many other things it could be. I'd suggest that if you start thinking
"He's doing this on purpose," you might want to catch yourself and think,
"That means I don't know why he's doing this."
You're actually probably lucky he found out in his early 20s. People who
get to much older than that (and even some younger) doing what he's
probably been doing all this time, have a habit of crashing and burning in
*very* ugly ways -- but not knowing why it's happening, so often pushing
themselves well past their limits again. This may be unpleasant, but it's
probably better than the alternative.
For what it's worth, in a lot of people, after the initial exhaustion
phase, they eventually start figuring out how to deal with the world on
their own terms (rather than emergency-mode). Other people, for whatever
reason, don't, but it's a far leap from "they don't" to "they're doing it
deliberately", even when it seems (and even possibly feels) deliberate.
Kalen
> "Kalen"
>
>>As I mentioned in another post (now I see it was unnecessary because you
>>knew), my partner and friend do not have the communication problems I
>>do. They have different ones.
>
>
> Nothing is ever unnecessary. It is always good to back each other up with
> our own experiences or to see the differences in them as well.
>
>
>>But knowing that it will make him feel better, yet not pressuring him
>>*at all* in case it makes it impossible for him, must be hard for you. I
>>have to be cued to talk in very specific ways I don't think I could >
>
> explain. There's a very fine line between encouragement and pressure and
>
>>another between giving space and ignoring/being unavailable.
>
>
> Despite how I may or may not be coming across in text :) I am usually very
> good at knowing how to talk to people.
You are very confusing, you know? On one hand, you say you're great at
reading people, talk to people well, understand people intuitively and
with amazing accuracy. On the other hand you say you have exactly the
same social and communication problems autistic people here have
described. Those two statements don't add up.
Anyway, what I was saying above has nothing to do with your general
social communication skill level and everything to do with some people
being very quirky in their communication and need for exactly perfect
prompts. I know everything about my problems, yet faced with a clone of
myself I doubt I could accurately judge when and how to push and when
and how to back off, because the signs of which is needed are just not
externally visible. Also, very socially skilled people who understand me
very well are no better.
> Oh I guess I should have added that I can say one thing one day and he tells
> me I am full of shit, next day some stranger tells him and they are so
> wonderfull for bringing him into the light!
> It seriously is just THAT extream!
I've done things like that. I don't know why it is. Maybe he was
thinking on what you said and ready to hear it more when someone else
said it. Or maybe because you care about him and may say or not say
things because of that, it's not clear to him when you are biased and
when you're not.
> You get to know someone and get to know they only have your best interests
> at heart you should also begin to trust them at their word on things they
> say they can or can not do, not feel the need to question them every time
> the issues arisses and trust that they will not lead you astray on anything.
But people can be wrong no matter how much they love you!
> If you chose to sit back and do nothing and then tell those who only love
> and care about you that they are full of shit but listen to a stranger or
> someone who has bas intention on the same thing I do consider that a slight
> against myself.
>
> Hubby even admits he does this!
Does he say he does it to insult you?
>>Good luck! I'd like to prevent my children ever being violent, cruel,
>>prejudiced, or lying, but I'm dealing with real people here and that
>>just isn't going to happen.
>
> Upbringing certaing plays a key role in this though don't you think?
It makes a difference to what they do habitually as adults, perhaps, but
all of them will do some of these things some of the time. And as my
children are NT, I expect them to do some of them even more than I do.
> My son has had a very different start to his life and it shows.
Obviously that's a good thing, and obviously your husband has been
damaged by the way he was brought up. However, I still think if you
expect your son never to do any of that, you are going to be disappointed.
> Oh I certainly do not believe in 'Blind Faith' Another issue and contentious
> at that, is the fact that I have shunned all organised religiouns due to
> having no understanding of the 'fools' who seem to follow blindly the
> tenants of who knows who or what.
I wasn't talking about religion.
> But using this example, of course one should not follow blindly the words of
> strangers, and people who's intent can not be known, however in a marriage
> one should not have married the other if they find themselves totally unable
> to have faith in the intent behind the other's actions.
Intent means nothing to me. It means everything to my partner, who
thinks he should get away with murder (figurative) if he had good
intentions. But the best intentions in the world don't make you or
anyone else more likely to be right or more believable than anyone else.
I still don't understand why it would be otherwise.
>>I should hope you never discount what someone says or does on the basis
>>of their disability! (let alone *everything*!)
>
> I certainly do not.
That's what it looked like you said.
Kalen
Kalen
>
> Hubby gets right in my face and attacks me with words and then wonders why I
> 'wont' give him and answer. I get the same way so I have the ability to see
> it in other as well.
> I can see the difference between avoiding and being pushed into that state
> though.
Well, alright, it's clear from what you've said that you are both
perfectly understanding and perfectly perceptive, including psychic
abilities which are very interesting, so I won't waste our time going
further with this.
Kalen
Janna Hoskin
> > are, which is why I find it very hard to understand a lack of
willingness to
> > talk about NOW.
>
> I find I can talk about things I have already worked out. Whether
> they're thoughts, feelings, opinions, whatever. If a spontaneous *new*
> response is required, I become very tongue-tied, but when talking about
> familiar subjects (which I do most of the time) I give the impression of
> being very articulate and intelligent. The past emotional content of
> something is pretty much irrelevant to me in almost all circumstances.
>
I've now read all of these posts as current as they are on my newsreader.
I concur with Kalen on the whole being able to talk about past events and
being unable to talk about things *now*. I don't talk much about myself
(well, I type and write emails and so on, but I don't actually *talk* very
often). Even with people who are close to me, it takes a big push on my end
to be able to spit it out, and if the other person has any expectation of me
in how I'm going to talk to them, it makes it nigh impossible for me to say
*anything*. This also happens when I am extremely emotional about whatever
I'm talking about, and when people start asking questions and don't wait
patiently for me to speak up, I shut down and simply *can't* talk about
*anything*.
That all being said, I don't have a dx. But I meet enough of the criteria
that if the characteristics I display were significantly interfering with my
day-to-day functioning level, I would probably get a dx of AS. As it
stands, I probably only qualify for shadow syndrome because I've adapted to
my life and circumstances and am becoming quite good at engineering my
environment to be most conducive to my prime functioning levels. (I hope
that makes sense.)
Getting onto the topic of why your husband 'shut down' shortly after he was
told of his dx...
Perhaps he is still trying to process the information and trying to figure
out if it changes him in any way. Why did his mother choose to tell him
when she did? Was it her own need to expunge a secret, or was he actively
seeking answers for why he felt different from everyone else, etc.?
I had someone once tell me that I was very self-involved. This person was
not only a trained music therapist, she was my teacher at school and should
have been someone I could trust to help direct me in life. Not only did she
destroy any amicable feelings by offering that unsolicited opinion, I
actually became rather suicidal that night. Over a year later, I asked the
question of my best friend (in email), and she gave me a long, well-thought
out response that made sense and was designed to give me truth without being
hurtful in any way. I accepted her assessment of the situation for two
reasons: (1) she knows me better than most people I know; and (2) I actually
asked her for her opinion in the matter. But it took more than a year for
me to really be able to deal with that question, and there are still
unresolved issues surrounding my time at that school that I'm simply not
prepared to deal with quite yet.
While I recognise that a diagnosis or label does not, in and of itself,
change who a person actually is, I would say that it *can* affect how a
person views himself. That can be a good thing, or it can be a bad thing.
It depends on the person.
I would also hazard a guess that perhaps the communicating that you and your
husband did *prior* to his mother telling him he was AS was not as genuine
as you think it was. Perhaps your husband has taken the revelation of his
dx to be permission to act and communicate in what he considers to be a more
natural and simple way (for him).
That you are doing research is great. That you are trying to help him by
sharing what you've learned is also great. Unfortunately, as frustrating as
it can be to try to share such things with what amounts to a brick wall,
it's sometimes the reality of life. (I can say this because I've faced such
brick walls in my attempts to get my mother and brother to accept the
definite possibility that my brother has AS.)
Keep trying, but don't place so many expectations. Things have changed;
whether you think they should have or not has no real bearing on the reality
of that change. I'm not saying your feelings don't matter; obviously they
matter a lot. I'm saying that perhaps you need to give your husband more
time and be more willing to let him do things when he's ready. One way to
do that may be to take the initiative and email *him* about some of your
concerns. Just share one concern to begin with. Don't overwhelm him. When
he is comfortable writing you back about that concern, he will do so. And
perhaps things will get better, for both of you, over time.
-Janna
--
ABA Therapist, North Vancouver, BC, Canada
BMus, BAPsych
****************************************************************************
*****************
"Home is not a place. It is wherever your passion takes you." - President
John Sheridan, Babylon 5 (Objects At Rest, Production #522)
"Nobody else is stronger than I am, today I moved a mountain! I'd like to
be your hero, I am a mighty little man!" - Steve Burns, "Mighty Little Man"
(Songs For Dustmites, unreleased)
http://crosswinds.net/~jlhasd/index.htm
****************************************************************************
*****************
sggaB the Slug
wrote:
>> I like cuddly just fine but I HATE the unwanted sexual advances
>> and constant bombardment! My cat does not give me that trouble
>> funny enough...
> My God, it'd be extremely worrying if your cat did!
Cats in heat will sometimes do that.
Also, I recall a little too vividly dogsitting for a small dog who liked
to spend half her time running hyper around the house and making bizarre
noises, and the other half her time humping my leg.
Rayvyn
"sggaB the Slug"
> It regularly takes me two years or more to be able to both figure out the
> present and form words around it, by which time it's become the past.
> Anyone attempting to force me to communicate faster is going to get
> frustrated. Which is something you may want to keep in mind.
Will do.
Rayvyn
"Stephen Horne"
> I've done that in the past. If it's a personal issue that someone I'm
> sensitive to, then (1) it is easier to consider an opinion objectively
> from someone that I don't care about and thus who can't hurt me, and
> (2) sometimes it takes me a while with the idea stewing in the
> subconscious before I can admit it to myself.
I can understand this, but not so much when it is literally one hour to the
next time frame. A week, and coming back to say 'hey you were spot on' I
could understand.
> Of course I also know someone who does it a lot seemingly because he
> won't accept that a woman could know better than him. This is in an
> ASD support context and that person is supposed to be supporting a
> teacher who has far more knowledge and experience than him - but who
> happens to be female.
My hubby goes around putting me on the spot (making me shrink and not know
how to deal in a social situation even more) telling people that I am the
smartest person he knows, evn so far as in the world and he is amazed by my
intelligence etc etc etc
I find myself flailing about not knowing what to say in case I don't (and I
know I can't possibly) live up to that kind of introduction.
I have always been seen by others the way he sees me, which has always been
one of the 'social problems' I have had. No one can possibly live up to it,
I have only ever seen myself as a people person and maybe a little
intuitive, but not so intelligent as to be above the levels of everyone
else.
One person may see an emotional intelligence, another a cognitive etc etc
but they do not add up to all things all the time...
So on one hand he puts me up on a pedestool to others and the other he puts
me down to my face. It does not lead to good end as I am sure you can
imagine.
Rayvyn
"Robin May"
> > I like cuddly just fine but I HATE the unwanted sexual advances
> > and constant bombardment! My cat does not give me that trouble
> > funny enough...
>
> My God, it'd be extremely worrying if your cat did!
hehehe
Rayvyn
"Kalen"
> You are very confusing, you know? On one hand, you say you're great at
> reading people, talk to people well, understand people intuitively and
> with amazing accuracy. On the other hand you say you have exactly the
> same social and communication problems autistic people here have
> described. Those two statements don't add up.
Oh I confuse even myself.
I can read people from many many years of sitting back and watching and not
being able to participate. I am sure many people can remember me but can
recall nothing I may have contributed to their lives. I was just there in
the background like a painting on the wall. I also spent most of my
formative years (pre school age and even beyond) in the company of very very
intelligent and high ranking adults (mostly female as it happens). My
mother was involved in government bodies etc. I went everywhere with her
and when I had to start school the only thing I was 'upset' about at all was
that I was going to miss having "lunch with the ladies".
I have always been well adjusted internally and had a good self esteem, just
never had real friends growing up, and the only one I had as an adult
stopped talking to me or returning my calls because she "never liked Chris"
(hubby by any other name LOL) She knows all about AS and looked after a
little boy with AS yet could make no concessions for Hubby as I always have
done and so apparently that is good enough reason to disolve our
friendship...
Me I say I spent years nursing her through BFs who beat her, ran
prostitution rings and did all kinds of nasty and illegal stuff and she
simply "never liked Chris"?
I still can not understand how THAT works...
> I've done things like that. I don't know why it is. Maybe he was
> thinking on what you said and ready to hear it more when someone else
> said it. Or maybe because you care about him and may say or not say
> things because of that, it's not clear to him when you are biased and
> when you're not.
Oh I say things he does not wish to hear because I care. He knows 100% I
will not hold back if it is important.
> But people can be wrong no matter how much they love you!
That is where one asks for discussion they never get and can't understand
how blind faced beliefe goes to a stranger :)
> Does he say he does it to insult you?
At times he has, now wether or not he just says he says it to insult me, to
insult me I probably will never know right?
> It makes a difference to what they do habitually as adults, perhaps, but
> all of them will do some of these things some of the time. And as my
> children are NT, I expect them to do some of them even more than I do.
:)
> Obviously that's a good thing, and obviously your husband has been
> damaged by the way he was brought up. However, I still think if you
> expect your son never to do any of that, you are going to be disappointed.
I don't expect anything like that at all. Just for him to be the best person
he can be.
> I wasn't talking about religion.
I know, I was only giving example of my dislike and lack of understanding of
blind faith.
> Intent means nothing to me. It means everything to my partner, who
> thinks he should get away with murder (figurative) if he had good >
intentions. But the best intentions in the world don't make you or
> anyone else more likely to be right or more believable than anyone else.
> I still don't understand why it would be otherwise.
It should however overrule that of someone who has ill intent should it not?
> That's what it looked like you said.
Looks can be decieving right?
Rayvyn
"Kalen" <ne...@paradox.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3EBFD1BA...@paradox.freeserve.co.uk...
How did you get to that conculsion?
Kalen
> Dear Hussin,
>
> I think we all share this trouble with NT, cause I suffer it also. :(
Not everyone shares this trouble or it wouldn't be trouble.
Kalen
> "Kalen" <ne...@paradox.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:3EBFD1BA...@paradox.freeserve.co.uk...
>
>>perfectly understanding and perfectly perceptive, including psychic
>>abilities which are very interesting, so I won't waste our time going
>>further with this.
>
> How did you get to that conculsion?
Because everything anyone suggests you say you know better.
Kalen
>
> Given that its now clear that any attempt to prove my worth is futile
> - that there is no cure for AS and there is no way I will be able to
> gain acceptance through getting a good job, knowing stuff or whatever
> achievements I thought might gain me a little respect - the motivation
> has largely gone too.
That's an unrealistically negative view. It's not actually so bleak. I
don't think I could say anything to convince you - you'll have to find
out for yourself.
Kalen
Rayvyn
"Kalen"
> My partner's too. Our house is full of computers.
Yes ours too. Son hurt himself rather badly on a case daddy has failed to
move and it is STILL there!
> I refuse to have any kind of messager because I would find it intrusive.
> I can't cope with interruptions. House on fire? Stop telling me about it
> and go tut it out! ;-)
Sounds familiar. Like running a bath and leaving the house to the garage
and forgetting to coem back. I seem to be forever saving a bath from
running over by a half inch!
> Have you e-mailed him? Start with something simple. It can be very hard
> to initiate something new, and it can also be very hard to respond to
> something very long, complex, or emotional.
Yeah I send him email, he filters them into a 'Rayvyn' folder and ignores
them! LOL
> My partner knows me. That doesn't mean he knows what it's like inside my
> mind.
Maybe it is easier for some than others. Have you never seen old couples
who can 'read each other's mind'? Finish sentences for each other etc?
> Presumably 99% of those people were not AS, so your conclusions about
> body language and whatnot would not apply to your husband.
I have met plenty of AS, and watched them also.
I see the differences and the similarities.
> Even if they have very non-standard body language?
Yes. Look into someone's eyes and read them. Knowing that is not a strong
suit for AS I do not pressume you to understand.
> I did say "if", which means I don't know whether you do or not.
Which was why I tried to clarify.
Robin May
>> That's what it looked like you said.
>
> Looks can be decieving right?
Well if that's the case with things you say, then it rather defeats the
point of saying them.
Anna Hayward
>"Rayvyn" <mrthe...@hotmail.com> wrote the following in:
>news:3ebfc6b5$0$16256$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au
>
>> I like cuddly just fine but I HATE the unwanted sexual advances
>> and constant bombardment! My cat does not give me that trouble
>> funny enough...
>
>My God, it'd be extremely worrying if your cat did!
Cats regularly make sexual advances to their human companions. Unlike
people, they don't have any sense of morality attached to it.
--
Anna Hayward, Alien Visitor
Email me at: alienvisitor AT ratbag DOT demon DOT co DOT uk
Anna's Pregnancy, Parenting and Autism page:
http://www.ratbag.demon.co.uk/anna/
Anna Hayward
<mrthe...@hotmail.com> writes
>Gosh no thanks! I actually prefer my cat! He knows when a smack across
>the nose means no!
Highly unlikely. To a cat, a smack across the nose is probably some
irrational violent behaviour occasionally associated with humans who
have failed to learn how to act sufficiently cat-like.
The chances that you are communicating anything meaningful by this
action are zero to none. The fact that he gets out of the way as a
result of this behaviour is simply an indicating that he doesn't like
being hit. He no doubt sticks around for the food and shelter - cats
don't know the meaning of "loyalty", just survival.
>I like cuddly just fine but I HATE the unwanted sexual advances and
>constant bombardment!
If you are really so unhappy in your marriage, do everyone a favour and
leave. You can't fix your husband's AS, and communication between you
and your husband seems even poorer (if that is possible) than between
you and your poor cat, so maybe its time to admit defeat, while you can
still do so relatively amicably.
> My cat does not give me that trouble funny
>enough...
How would you know? Do you speak Cat?
(NB: when a cat rubs themselves up against you, they are either making
sexual advances or marking you as territory).
Robin May
news:3EBFE5C8...@paradox.freeserve.co.uk
I think he was saying that we (autistic people) all have trouble with
NTs, but I could be wrong.
Robin May
news:b9omuu$esl$2...@warren.leverton.org
> Rayvyn wrote:
>
>
>> So on one hand he puts me up on a pedestool to others and the
>> other he puts
>> me down to my face. It does not lead to good end as I am sure
>> you can imagine.
>
> sounds like you've fallen out of love.
That's how it sounds to me too. I find it hard to see how you can
really salvage anything from that marriage the way you describe it so
perhaps you should think about leaving.
Kalen
> Kalen <ne...@paradox.freeserve.co.uk> wrote the following in:
> news:3EBFE5C8...@paradox.freeserve.co.uk
>
>
>>PeaceTail wrote:
>>
>>>Dear Hussin,
>>>
>>>I think we all share this trouble with NT, cause I suffer it
>>>also. :(
>>
>>Not everyone shares this trouble or it wouldn't be trouble.
>
>
> I think he was saying that we (autistic people) all have trouble with
> NTs, but I could be wrong.
Ah, Ok. That's different.
Mike Stanton
wrote
>My hubby has basically done the same with regard to the AS.
>I hear all the time about 'forming coping strategies'. Well that is great
>and I am all for it, but what I am not for is the letting go of said
>strategies because suddenly you know why you had to form them to begin with.
>I can only see that as hiding behind and giving up to the AS label.
>
>If you can offer somethign else please do.
>I am here for help, guidance etc just as I assume everyone else is.
Sometimes autistic people expend a great deal of mental and emotional
energy trying to be normal. It can be very exhausting and stressful. For
some a diagnosis is a liberation.
"Ah! I am supposed to be different. That is *normal* for me."
So they stop trying so hard all of the time. Your partner seems, from
what you are saying, to have stopped trying completely. This is not fair
to you. Have either of you been offered any support or advice in coming
to terms with his diagnosis and working out strategies for the future?
Material on relationships for autistics and their partners is beginning
to emerge very slowly.
You may find http://www.asperger-marriage.info a good starting point.
--
Mike
Serving neither God nor Mammon
on the Lonely Planet
Rayvyn
"sam ende"
> she said earlier she would like her son to be the best he can or
> something similar, i wonder why that doesn't hold for the husband.
> i find it sad.
What makes you think it doesn't?
Tell me, do you honestly think he would frustrate me so bloody much if I did
not give a shit or thought he was a dead loss and did not want the best for
him?
Rayvyn
"Robin May"
> That's how it sounds to me too. I find it hard to see how you can > really
salvage anything from that marriage the way you describe it so
> perhaps you should think about leaving.
So anyone who is pressumably NT and is a little frustrated with an AS spouse
should just give up and leave?
There is no reason or way or trying to work through problems and get to the
other side?
Sound a little defeatist to me...
Rayvyn
"Robin May"
> >> That's what it looked like you said.
> >
> > Looks can be decieving right?
>
> Well if that's the case with things you say, then it rather defeats the
> point of saying them.
Not at all. Words in text are just that. They offer up no idea to people
reading them as to what is meant by them. You are free to read them in any
context you see fit. It does not mean they were written that way.
Nothing is Black and White even though I fully understand that for some of
you it may be hard to see grey
Rayvyn
"sggaB the Slug"
> Understanding someone is not all or nothing.
I would never claim it was. I have however had a few people here try to
tell me there is no way I could understand like I think I do (not is those
exact words)
I understand that for AS folks it may be difficult to get how someone can
understand as well as I claim to, but it IS possible.
Rayvyn
"Kalen"
> Are you sure it's not bad enough that he's noticed anyway? If you're
> really not showing him any of it, then perhaps he doesn't realise how
> important this issue is to you.
I speak it, I do not take it out on him. There is a difference.
He either choses to listen or choses not to listen at any given time.
Again something HE has admitted to.
He totally understands how important certain things are to me but because
they do not fit with his world view he is unwilling to pay attention. Also
something he has admitted to.
I have not just been making generalizatins here all this time. When I say
he choses or choses not to do something or refuses I say it because it is
something I have witnessed and he has admitted to.
> By a "universal AS thing" I meant that it's not universal to AS. But if
> you really have exactly the same problem, why are you incapable of
> understanding it?
Are you capable of understanding everything?
(not that I am aware of what is refered to above anymore *snippage*)
> That depends. It depends whether I've been asked to consider it, whether
> it's important to me, whether it's something I *can* express even given
> the time, and probably a number of other things I can't enumerate now
> (have to cook for kids).
I may be foolish but I have always believed that if you enter a marriage
that that marriage should be at least a priority in your life, even if it
does sometimes get shoved to the bottom of the pile. I should be able to
assume that if that is a given, time should make the question pertaining to
the marriage answerable and not avoided due to lack of interest. Yes even
granting the popping up of something else to take your mind off it along the
way.
> If I forget about it then I'm not thinking it will go away, I've
> forgotten it. Those aren't compatible as one is involuntary and the >
other is deliberate. However, if it is a difficult issue I may not have
> a response within what would normally be considered a reasonable time.
I know where you say they are different things, but when relegating it to
the back of your mind (forgetting) is done on purpose in the hope it will go
away, they become the two sides of the same coin.
Robin May
>
> "Robin May"
>> >> That's what it looked like you said.
>> >
>> > Looks can be decieving right?
>>
>> Well if that's the case with things you say, then it rather
>> defeats the point of saying them.
>
> Not at all. Words in text are just that.
How profound. Let me have a go at that. "Things I say are just that:
they're just things I say." and again "Cars on the road are just that.
They're cars that are on the road."
> They offer up no idea
> to people reading them as to what is meant by them.
That's not true at all. If it were true, there would be no point
whatsoever in writing because no matter what words you wrote it could
mean anything.
> Nothing is Black and White even though I fully understand that for
> some of you it may be hard to see grey
I'm not saying anything is black and white, but you seem to be saying
that nothing anyone says means anything. But then of course with that
outlook you could interpret what I say to mean anything.
Rayvyn
"Janna Hoskin"
> Why did his mother choose to tell him
> when she did? Was it her own need to expunge a secret, or was he actively
> seeking answers for why he felt different from everyone else, etc.?
His mother is a nasty evil witch and did not chose to tell him. We had to
literally drag it out of her and then she claims ignorance after the fact.
Seeing a new doctor, asking for any background on hubby's Epilepsy and she
just casually slips out something about hubby being autistic. At the time
we both said "BULLSHIT!", but looked into what she had called it anyway.
> I would also hazard a guess that perhaps the communicating that you and
your
> husband did *prior* to his mother telling him he was AS was not as genuine
> as you think it was. Perhaps your husband has taken the revelation of his
> dx to be permission to act and communicate in what he considers to be a
more
> natural and simple way (for him).
Interesting idea. I personally can not see how exchanging harmony and
happiness for dischord and unhappiness is any easier for anyone.
I do see where you are coming from, although ease and unawkwardness replaced
by such does not seem to indicate lack of genuin communication to begin
with. It seems to indicate more so the shut down of skills gained through
life due to being given an 'excuse/reason' to do so.
As soon as someone knows they or someone around them has a diagnosis of
something, watch how that changes the person and the people around them.
Lots of people hide behind things, and AS simply can not be an exception to
that rule.
I can understand totally feeling it is great to finally have an excuse not
to bother in the real world any more and to be able to follow your interests
and loves because no one will bother you due to you 'lack' in certain areas
as told by your diagnosis. It is a trap for many good people, and in many
different ilnessess/conditions.
Robin May
news:3ebff881$0$16255$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au
>
> "Robin May"
>> That's how it sounds to me too. I find it hard to see how you can
>> > really
> salvage anything from that marriage the way you describe it so
>> perhaps you should think about leaving.
>
> So anyone who is pressumably NT and is a little frustrated with an
> AS spouse should just give up and leave?
That's not what I said at all, but like I said earlier, your attitude
seems to be that anything someone writes can mean anything.
I'm saying that in an unhappy marriage when it seems like there's no
way one person's needs can be met by the other, there really isn't
anything worth continuing the marriage for.
> There is no reason or way or trying to work through problems and
> get to the other side?
Well in some cases there is no solution to the problems and there is no
other side. What are you expecting of your husband? That he becomes a
different person? You seem to want him to be something that he doesn't
seem to be, and I don't think that can ever have a happy ending.
Rayvyn
"Anna Hayward"
> Highly unlikely. To a cat, a smack across the nose is probably some
> irrational violent behaviour occasionally associated with humans who
> have failed to learn how to act sufficiently cat-like.
>
> The chances that you are communicating anything meaningful by this
> action are zero to none. The fact that he gets out of the way as a
> result of this behaviour is simply an indicating that he doesn't like
> being hit. He no doubt sticks around for the food and shelter - cats
> don't know the meaning of "loyalty", just survival.
My cat does not run when he is hit across the nose. He does something bad
(like bitting) and he KNOW it is bad and what the result is. As a result he
hardly ever does that bad again.
Domestic pets have the ability to understand as much as an average 4 yr old
child. That is a heck of a lot more understanding than you are giving them
credit for.
Our cats definately display loyalty to certain menmbers of the household.
They also display seperation anguish. Very much impossible if one were to
believe what you say above to be absolute and unyeilding fact.
I do not claim ALL cats are like ours but many domestic pets are.
> If you are really so unhappy in your marriage, do everyone a favour and
> leave. You can't fix your husband's AS, and communication between you
> and your husband seems even poorer (if that is possible) than between
> you and your poor cat, so maybe its time to admit defeat, while you can
> still do so relatively amicably.
Ok so it is not acceptable to you that someone asks for help, insight or
guidance on a problem? People must blow it up to mean the end of a marriage
because someone seeks these things and is brutally honest about things?
What kind of assistance could one expect if they did not lay bare for all to
see and hid thoughts, feelings and personal ideals?
To jump to a conclusion that I do not love my hubby, or that I wish to get
out of what you consider (and I don't) an unhappy or unsalvagable marriage
is just ludicrouse to me.
As for my cat, again you have no idea. My cat and I speak each other's
language. We have the ability to understand body language, tone of
voice/meow and needs most of the time. It is not so hard a thing to do.
> How would you know? Do you speak Cat?
Infact maybe some people can and do speak whatever language their pets do.
> (NB: when a cat rubs themselves up against you, they are either making
> sexual advances or marking you as territory).
No kidding? Man all these years and I NEVER knew that.
If you are done underestimating my intelligence and insulting me, I can be
all done with my sarcasm too!
Rayvyn
"Kalen"
> Because everything anyone suggests you say you know better.
I have only said I know my hubby and our situation better than what some
have suggested I do.
Not everyone's words or advice will fit every situation, some has and some
has not. That is what makes everyone and every situation somewhat different
to any others.
Rayvyn
"Stephen Horne"
> But Rayvyn may well know better. She is the one living her life with
> her husband. We are working only from the limited bits she has said
> and generalisations about ASDs.
Thank you. That is exactly where I am coming from.
I am more than happy if someone can shed some light on something I may be
missing. I dont mind generalisations at all, I will look at them and
stretch them this way and that to see if they fit my situation and my hubby,
if they don't I will simply say they dont and move on to the next one. I
will continue to do so with anything anyone throws at me until I can find
something that fits and may help.
Thanks again for your understanding...
Robin May
No, I really don't think it is possible. You certainly haven't
demonstrate much of an understanding of AS, what with all this talk of
it being an 'excuse' for people to 'hide behind'.
Janna Hoskin
> > to people reading them as to what is meant by them.
>
> That's not true at all. If it were true, there would be no point
> whatsoever in writing because no matter what words you wrote it could
> mean anything.
>
> > Nothing is Black and White even though I fully understand that for
> > some of you it may be hard to see grey
>
> I'm not saying anything is black and white, but you seem to be saying
> that nothing anyone says means anything. But then of course with that
> outlook you could interpret what I say to mean anything.
Blue cabbages eat sunlight. Carrots curdle water's oil. Black can't sing.
So what does that mean?
Robin May
news:b9ovbq$ch7$1...@warren.leverton.org
> Rayvyn wrote:
>
>
>> I can understand totally feeling it is great to finally have an
>> excuse not to bother in the real world any more and to be able to
>> follow your interests and loves because no one will bother you
>> due to you 'lack' in certain areas
>
> if this is how you talk to him i am not suprised he can not talk
> to you.
Exactly. She goes on about how she understands him completely and is so
wonderful at knowing what's going on in people's minds and
understanding them, and then she comes out with something like that!
Kalen
> On Mon, 12 May 2003 19:24:18 +0100, Kalen
> <ne...@paradox.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>Rayvyn wrote:
>
>
>>>How did you get to that conculsion?
>>
>>Because everything anyone suggests you say you know better.
>
>
> her husband. We are working only from the limited bits she has said
> and generalisations about ASDs.
But obviously all my efforts to communicate my experience are pointless,
so I don't see any benefit in going through the effort.
Tim Bruening
abolished, the U.S. should switch to solar and wind energy, and Yassar
Arafat should resign.
Janna Hoskin
"sam ende" <s...@sende.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:b9ovbq$ch7$1...@warren.leverton.org...
> Rayvyn wrote:
>
>
> > I can understand totally feeling it is great to finally have an excuse
> > not to bother in the real world any more and to be able to follow your
> > interests and loves because no one will bother you due to you 'lack'
> > in certain areas
>
>
But sammi, she's already said she doesn't talk to him like how she's writing
here.
Maybe she should get together with Jason L.
Robin May
news:3ec00091$0$16255$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au
>> If you are really so unhappy in your marriage, do everyone a
>> favour and leave. You can't fix your husband's AS, and
>> communication between you and your husband seems even poorer (if
>> that is possible) than between you and your poor cat, so maybe
>> its time to admit defeat, while you can still do so relatively
>> amicably.
>
> Ok so it is not acceptable to you that someone asks for help,
> insight or guidance on a problem? People must blow it up to mean
> the end of a marriage because someone seeks these things and is
> brutally honest about things? What kind of assistance could one
> expect if they did not lay bare for all to see and hid thoughts,
> feelings and personal ideals?
No one's saying it's not acceptable to ask for help or advice. You've
told people the situation and their response has been that they don't
think the marriage is salvageable. That isn't a judgement on you saying
you're bad for seeking advice - it IS the advice.
> To jump to a conclusion that I do
> not love my hubby, or that I wish to get out of what you consider
> (and I don't) an unhappy or unsalvagable marriage is just
> ludicrouse to me.
No one has jumped to those conclusions. In particular no one has said
that you wish to get out of the marriage, instead they've told you that
maybe you should.
For someone who claims to be so perceptive and understanding, you're
not demonstrating it very much.
Robin May
news:7tTva.315612$vs.23...@news3.calgary.shaw.ca
> Blue cabbages eat sunlight. Carrots curdle water's oil. Black
> can't sing.
>
> So what does that mean?
No doubt Rayvyn can tell you.
Tim Bruening
Tim Bruening
Kalen wrote:
> Rayvyn wrote:
> > Funny you should say that...
> > I have a cat and he sleeps with me and comforts me where my AS hubby does
> > not.
> > I often feel like I am having a better 'marriage' with my cat than with my
> > hubby...
> > Sad isn't it :(
>
> Don't suppose you want to borrow my AS hubby for a while? He's entirely
> too cuddly for my liking. Had to practically beat him off with a stick
> last night.
Should both Rayvyn and Kalen seek marriage counseling?
Tim Bruening
Rayvyn wrote:
> "Kalen"
> > Maybe he doesn't want to or have anything he feels the need to
> > communicate. Does he use computers? If so, have you ever suggested he
> > e-mail you?
>
> We have a network set up at home. He is a computer nut, his specialised area
> of interest I would say LOL
> We have MSN and he hates me 'bothering him' by messaging him on it even if
> it is to say the house is on fire!
> I have suggested email b4 but he just ignores me.
I would like to invite your husband to post on this newsgroup.
Janna Hoskin
"Robin May" <northc...@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9379DB36E810DCh...@130.133.1.4...
> "Janna Hoskin" <Treat...@shaw.ca> wrote the following in:
> news:7tTva.315612$vs.23...@news3.calgary.shaw.ca
>
> > Blue cabbages eat sunlight. Carrots curdle water's oil. Black
> > can't sing.
> >
> > So what does that mean?
>
> No doubt Rayvyn can tell you.
That's what I figured. *nodnod*
Rayvyn
"Robin May"
> No, I really don't think it is possible. You certainly haven't
> demonstrate much of an understanding of AS, what with all this talk of
> it being an 'excuse' for people to 'hide behind'.
I did not say AS was the only thing people use as an excuse to hide behind.
I did say any condition that comes baggaged with possiblities to hide behind
has cases of people doing just that.
Rayvyn
"Kalen"
> But obviously all my efforts to communicate my experience are pointless,
> so I don't see any benefit in going through the effort.
Not at all, they just do not gel with my own...
Rayvyn
"Stephen Horne"
> I wonder about this sometimes with myself. It's now approaching two
> years since my diagnosis, dated 24th september 2001. I had already
> been recieving treatment for severe anxiety and depression for about a
> year.
Hubby did not present with anxiety and many other problems until he started
being treated for depression (probably something he had had since childhood
and was untreated all that time) with a drug called Effexor.
He and I actually disscussed this tonight (yes a real disscussion!!! LOL)
The last three years he has been taking this antidepressant, in that time he
has also had xanax etc for aniety, his Effexor dosage climbs and climbs and
never seems to quite do the trick (listed as a side effect for Effexor is
funnily enough... DEPRESSION and ANXIETY) Many other side effects listed
for this drug, that I wont go into due to very icky personal nature have
surfaced for him in this time period also. We shall definately be speaking
to the DR about getting him OFF them and see how he goes at being
unmedicated.
>Basically, for over a decade I had been trying to prove there
> was some value to my existence. I had burnt out. Still am.
I personally have been there and still am there... *hugs* (if of course I am
not overstepping your personal space...)
> But there is also the sense that I am the one with a disability. I
> have the diagnosis. I need help. What the f**k happened to the part
> where someone helps me!
Uhuh. I do get that. We as a family have been through that together. Mum
has disabilities (all physical and some memory loss), son and hubby AS and
apparently ADHD as well as hubby Epileptic and possibly son is. Son may
also be Asthmatic like mum who has sever allergies and 'women's ' troubles
etc etc etc Wont mention dear dead dad's issues!
Our whole family from on time or another has been treaded like lepers and
been shoved aside by those who are supposedly there to help us as a whole or
individually.
I hope you have or are receiving your nedded help.
> Given that its now clear that any attempt to prove my worth is futile
> - that there is no cure for AS and there is no way I will be able to
> gain acceptance through getting a good job, knowing stuff or whatever
> achievements I thought might gain me a little respect - the motivation
> has largely gone too.
See maybe it is my status as 'NT' but I don't see the need to give up. I
have been largely unaccepted my whole life. I was chubby, I was the 'weird
girl', I was avoided like the plague in public but had 'secret friends', I
never understood the whole boy crazy thing teenage girls do and hence was
ousted by my peers etc etc etc.
Does all this and all that you have been through lessen any the need, desire
or relevence in our lives of doing the best we can despite it all?
Maybe it is too simple a view but I always belived that respect is earned
not commanded. I have always respected those who respect themselves and are
in for a go wether they are likely to succeed or not. Hey I know, the rest
of the world is not all candy floss and cherry coke right?
> Also there is one massive grudge. Throughout my life I always had the
> feeling underneath everything that this was my fault. My entire life
> has been wrecked. I never had any chance of a happy, carefree
> childhood. I don't get any of the positive stuff that NT adults enjoy.
> Most of this has nothing to do with AS in itself - it is because of
> what other people did to me.
I felt this way also. I was weird? must be true if everyone said it and it
MUST be my fault. Try everything (short of things that did not fit my moral
code) to fit in and still be shunned? What on earth was the point? I was
hardly happy or carefree, except when I lied to myself and told myself that
none of their BS mattered, I was (and am) a good person and those who count
will see it!
What are the possitive things you see NT adults enjoying?
> So yes, on a certain level I think I deserve compensation. I think I
> deserve a period when I have no responsibility or obligations to worry
> about but myself, at the expense of the society that did this shit to
> me.
So long as one can tell the difference between society, and those who do
give a shit and love you it is all good.
If one has already taken a path down a road that demands responsibility by
it's very nature (marriage and children) then it is possibly a luxury one
needs to tell themselves they can not afford.
Again maybe this is too NT typical a response?
> Of course this isn't going to happen. Even the allowances being made
> now are conditional on my continuing to push myself into fitting the
> system.
AS etc are not alone in this. Even NTs are expected to conform and given to
heave ho if they can't/wont or refuse to.
> When I was a kid I saw this film where this guy was on his own in the
> arctic or antarctic or wherever, on a scientific thingy where his
> basic job was to count penguins. It was about how he went mad with
> loneliness. It made an impression. Nothing to do but count penguins!
> EXCELLENT - WHERE DO I SIGN UP! Can't possibly go more mad than I'm
> going anyway!
Sounds good to me also. Alone with your own thoughts or lack thereof.
We are all going mad in our own way, quietly for some and more vocally for
others.
Enjoy the madness if you can!
Rayvyn
"Mike Stanton"
> Sometimes autistic people expend a great deal of mental and emotional
> energy trying to be normal. It can be very exhausting and stressful. For
> some a diagnosis is a liberation.
I can see it from both sides. I personally would feel liberated to know
that I was not abnormal, I just fitted into a different subcategory.
> "Ah! I am supposed to be different. That is *normal* for me."
I am constantly telling my hubby that there is no such thing as normal, it
is the same illusion as perfect. Reality also does not exist it is made up
of infinate pieces of 'reality' pieced together to become one. Yours may be
pieced together rather differently to mine.
> So they stop trying so hard all of the time. Your partner seems, from
> what you are saying, to have stopped trying completely. This is not fair
> to you. Have either of you been offered any support or advice in coming
> to terms with his diagnosis and working out strategies for the future?
Thank you for seeign what it is I have been saying.
No we have not been offered anything. That is why I scour the net and
groups etc for anything I can lay my hands on. I do not expect over night
miracles. If I did I would have kicked him out years ago with everything he
has put me through. I may not come off to many in here as a very
sympathetic person, that is just fine to me. I can not share everything he
has done to wrong me or everything I have done to try and work through it
all. Obviously since this is a mission to find help for a problem I wont be
spilling all or even much at all of any good stuff...
> Material on relationships for autistics and their partners is beginning
> to emerge very slowly.
> You may find http://www.asperger-marriage.info a good starting point.
Thank you so much. I will bookmark it and read it through after some sleep!
(6:45am here and still no sleep comes :( )
Rayvyn
"Robin May"
> That's not what I said at all, but like I said earlier, your attitude
> seems to be that anything someone writes can mean anything.
If I am unsure I will ask, as I have. Word can mean anything. It is an
undeniable fact. Having to live with two people who take everything you say
literally it becomes hard and tireing to keep finding the ways to say what
you mean in literal terms with no grey areas so that they may just
understand.
Me? I was brought up to think laterally and to see the hidden meanings
possible in the English language and read between people's words. Hear
sarcasm and understand irony etc etc etc.
In my world the AS folk I know lack these abilities and I have to adjust
everything I say to meet the ones they do possess.
I allow for the unexpected in what they say to me also.
> I'm saying that in an unhappy marriage when it seems like there's no
> way one person's needs can be met by the other, there really isn't
> anything worth continuing the marriage for.
You are assuming nothing is good, which I do not fault you for. As I
responded in another post, I am seeking on a negative and hence will likely
show much possitive.
> Well in some cases there is no solution to the problems and there is no
> other side. What are you expecting of your husband? That he becomes a
> different person? You seem to want him to be something that he doesn't
> seem to be, and I don't think that can ever have a happy ending.
I expect nothing other than he be the person I know he can be. How do I
know?
Becaue I met him, loved him and married him.