Getting kicked around

[Aquarian Monkey]

For my belief in the concept of neurodiversity. Need to be among those
who understand my feelings that my kids are not sick, do not need to
be cured, are not defective, and need to be accepted the way they
are.

Who's still around?

[Bob Badour]

Hi AM! How have you been?

[Aquarian Monkey]

I've been better and I've been worse ;)

How have you been? You know, I was thinking of you the other day. I
don't know if you heard how huge the lottery got here recently, but I
planned on winning it and offering you a job! :) I was going to start
a website providing information on all forms of non-typical neurology
(ASD, ADHD, OCD, TS, etc) that also functioned as a not-for-profit
offering grants for assistance. And a showcase for talent (art, music,
writing, etc).

But alas, someone else won the lottery and sucked away my dream! LOL!

[Bob Badour]

It's nice that you thought of me. I have a good job now so it's perhaps
best the money went to someone else who needed it.

The showcase for talent sounds interesting, but I would have thought
your neck of the woods has lots of those.

[astri]

who is kicking you around?

-- astri

======================
to email send to astri
======================
at volcano dot org
======================

[-alice]

I'm still around. Who's kicking you around?

-alice

[Aquarian Monkey]

On Apr 15, 1:22 am, astri <as...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
> who is kicking you around?
>
> -- astri

Parents. Of kids with autism that is not at all like what either of my
kids experience. Kids with identified comorbid medical conditions.
Kids who are a great deal more impaired. Kids who, in my best
estimation, really are *sick*.

It started when one person said that the concept of neurodiversity is
"nonsense." I basically told her that I could see where it might be
*irrelevant* to her and her experience, but that that doesn't make it
"nonsense." She responded by saying that it is *nonsense.* Then a
group of others chimed in.

They feel judged by those proponents of neurodiversity who believe
that trying to treat or ameliorate the symptoms of autism in their
children equals not loving or respecting their kids. The concept of
neurodiversity passes no judgement. It simply says that autism is the
result of natural human variation and that it is OK. Some *people* who
believe in neurodiversity may pass judgement. But the philosophy does
not.

They are completely unable to see that what they think has been done
to them, people in biomed to do other parents every day. I have been
basically told that if I am going to just let my daughter sit there
and rot and not do anything to help her, then I suck as a parent. That
judgment does not come from the concept of biomed, which says that
autism is the result of a physiological illness that can be treated or
cured. That judgement comes from a judgmental person. I do not damn
the entire concept because some of it's practitioners are closed-
minded and assume that their experience dictates the experience of
everyone else.

So, there was a bit of an "argument" that got to the point where,
seriously, I could not even understand what was being said because
there was no logical train of thought.

So, I guess I am leaving a group that I have been close with, and
spoken to on nearly a daily basis for the past 4 years.

Maybe it is the shadow aspie in me, but I cannot tolerate it. I cannot
tolerate the attack on my beliefs and I cannot tolerate the discrepant
behaviors attached to their view. Frankly, if they expect me to
respect their beliefs and their experience without questioning them or
telling them it is all "nonsense," which I have--not just to keep the
peace, but because I honestly do believe that what affects their
children is not the same thing as mine and I am therefore in no
position to pass any judgement on them at all--then I do not think it
is too much to ask that they do the same in return.

Apparently, they think the duplicitous behavior is completely
acceptable. Not the whole group, of course, but a significant number
of the most active participants.

They claim that there is tolerance and acceptance for autism. I don't
know what planet they live on. Maybe for them. Maybe for the person
who is so clearly disabled that everyone can see it. I don't know.
What I do know is that for my kids, they are unfairly judged every
day. They are seen as either naughty, bratty, lazy, stupid, or the
poor recipients of bad parenting because they are viewed as "not
trying hard enough" to meet societies expectations regarding what is
and is not acceptable behavior. There is a very clear expectation that
my kids should somehow magically change who they are, how they are
wired, so that they can behave in a NT fashion.. Actually, the
expectation isn't that they magically do it. The underlying belief
appears to be that they don't because of some kind of flaw.

My kids are not flawed. They are different. Their neurology will never
truly hold them back from accomplishing what they want to do. It
definitely makes certain things more challenging. But autism/ADHD/etc
is not their biggest problem. What *is* going to hold them back is
other people's unfair judgment and unattainable expectations. People
who think that I can "therapy the wiring out of them" are going to
hurt my kids. People who think that if they just try harder, they will
be like everyone else are going to hurt my kids.

I feel irrational and angry right now. I am probably not even making
any sense.

At any rate, it is nice to see some of you are still around, though it
looks like the evil little imps have been out and about quite a bit
around here.

Eva, if you want to make a little trip (I moved), I'd be happy to let
you try my Thai food! :)

[Bob Badour]

You are making a lot of sense.

People prefer simple answers. Ideologues violently insist upon them
regardless of any and all evidence to the contrary.

Most people's brains are wired to distill a large number of details down
to a small number of strong signals. It takes a lot of effort for them
to see all the pesky, complicating details. Aside: Hence, the power of
soundbites.

In any sizable group of people interested in a particular topic, one
will find a broad field of people with some few closed-minded ideologues
at various extrema and many more who just don't want to think that hard.
The latter will tend to gravitate toward whichever extrema most closely
matches their own simple model because that requires less thought.

That leaves the ground in the middle a sparsely populated and sometimes
lonely place. It sounds like you are feeling that right now.

I think it will be sad if you completely separate yourself from your
friends and supports. If you can, I suggest you try to keep in contact
with the less vehement among them.

[dolph...@fsmail.net]

BOING!

(in the style of Zebedee)

Dolphinius
(Male, age 40 +/- a few months, UK, self-diagnosed AS)

[Aquarian Monkey]

On Sunday, April 15, 2012 5:08:48 PM UTC-4, Bob Badour wrote:

> You are making a lot of sense.

Thank you. Because right about now I feel like a raving lunatic.

>
<SNIP>

>
> That leaves the ground in the middle a sparsely populated and sometimes
> lonely place. It sounds like you are feeling that right now.

You got that right.

>
> I think it will be sad if you completely separate yourself from your
> friends and supports. If you can, I suggest you try to keep in contact
> with the less vehement among them.

I am separating myself from the community, but not from individuals who would like to keep in contact.

But you know, it leaves me in a lonely place because the normal every day things that I would have shared with them, I now have no one to share them with.

For example, D was invited to another kid's house for the very first time ever and she went today. She did not want me to stay, but I felt nervous leaving her because since we are in a new school, no one "knows" and sometimes she still does things that could catch someone by surprise. So, I told the mom that she is "mildly autistic" so if she noticed anything unusual, she would know why. She immediately said that she had absolutely no problem with it, because her 9 y/o next door neighbor, whom she has known for his entire life, has some mix of ADHD and HFA and so she and her kids are "used to it" and "don't mind at all." In talking to her more, I think this boy and R could be friends. I discussed it with R and he wants to meet the other boy. And I would like to meet the mother. So it was an unexpectedly good part of an otherwise migraine-inducing day.

That is something I would normally share there. And now "there" is no longer a place I feel safe sharing.

Sucks.

[Bob Badour]

Yeah, that does suck. I know it's not quite the same, but you got to
share it here.

[Aquarian Monkey]

On Sunday, April 15, 2012 7:02:35 PM UTC-4, Bob Badour wrote:

>
> Yeah, that does suck. I know it's not quite the same, but you got to
> share it here.

It's not that it's not good to share it here. I just don't know how interesting folks would find it. I think in some ways that stuff is kind of "mom" stuff. Interesting to moms, not so much for the rest of the world.

[Bob Badour]

I can relate to the story -- probably more from your daughter's perspective.

You see the story as "mom" stuff because you observed it from the
perspective of a "mom".

I said it is not quite the same because in a face-to-face meeting with a
group of moms, you will receive affirmations and empathy you won't find
here so much. ::shrug::

[Nick Cramer]

Interesting to some grandfathers, too!

--
Nick, KI6VAV. Support severely wounded and disabled Veterans and their
families: https://semperfifund.org https://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/
http://www.specialops.org/ http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/ ~Semper Fi~
http://www.woundedwarriors.ca/ http://www.legacy.com.au/ ~Semper Fi~

[dolph...@fsmail.net]

On Sunday, April 15, 2012 9:04:00 PM UTC+1, Aquarian Monkey wrote:

> It started when one person said that the concept of neurodiversity is
> "nonsense." I basically told her that I could see where it might be
> *irrelevant* to her and her experience, but that that doesn't make it
> "nonsense." She responded by saying that it is *nonsense.* Then a
> group of others chimed in.

There is massive neurodiversity right across society.

> They feel judged by those proponents of neurodiversity who believe
> that trying to treat or ameliorate the symptoms of autism in their
> children equals not loving or respecting their kids. The concept of
> neurodiversity passes no judgement. It simply says that autism is the
> result of natural human variation and that it is OK. Some *people* who
> believe in neurodiversity may pass judgement. But the philosophy does
> not.

Autism has a wide spectrum of outcomes for society, ranging from the very good (brilliant autistic scientist who makes a really beneficial discovery) to the pretty good (reliable worker who is self-sufficient, very honest and makes a contribution through paying taxes) to pretty bad (those who do criminal things) to the very bad (individuals who need a lot of support in life which is a drain on society's resources). I think people see the bad more than the good.

Maybe some people think the very bad is not a price worth paying for the very good?

> They are completely unable to see that what they think has been done
> to them, people in biomed to do other parents every day. I have been
> basically told that if I am going to just let my daughter sit there
> and rot and not do anything to help her, then I suck as a parent.

But you are helping her! I think your attitudes (as you describe them in your posts) are spot on.

> That
> judgment does not come from the concept of biomed, which says that
> autism is the result of a physiological illness that can be treated or
> cured. That judgement comes from a judgmental person. I do not damn
> the entire concept because some of it's practitioners are closed-
> minded and assume that their experience dictates the experience of
> everyone else.
>
> So, there was a bit of an "argument" that got to the point where,
> seriously, I could not even understand what was being said because
> there was no logical train of thought.

Maybe they need to understand that many people who are autistic can live independently and happily? If so then what is there that needs curing or treating?

[snip]

> They claim that there is tolerance and acceptance for autism. I don't
> know what planet they live on. Maybe for them. Maybe for the person
> who is so clearly disabled that everyone can see it. I don't know.
> What I do know is that for my kids, they are unfairly judged every
> day. They are seen as either naughty, bratty, lazy, stupid, or the
> poor recipients of bad parenting because they are viewed as "not
> trying hard enough" to meet societies expectations regarding what is
> and is not acceptable behavior.

Are they in mainstream school at the moment?

> There is a very clear expectation that
> my kids should somehow magically change who they are, how they are
> wired, so that they can behave in a NT fashion.. Actually, the
> expectation isn't that they magically do it. The underlying belief
> appears to be that they don't because of some kind of flaw.
>
> My kids are not flawed. They are different. Their neurology will never
> truly hold them back from accomplishing what they want to do. It
> definitely makes certain things more challenging. But autism/ADHD/etc
> is not their biggest problem. What *is* going to hold them back is
> other people's unfair judgment and unattainable expectations. People
> who think that I can "therapy the wiring out of them" are going to
> hurt my kids. People who think that if they just try harder, they will
> be like everyone else are going to hurt my kids.
>
> I feel irrational and angry right now. I am probably not even making
> any sense.
>
> At any rate, it is nice to see some of you are still around, though it
> looks like the evil little imps have been out and about quite a bit
> around here.
>
> Eva, if you want to make a little trip (I moved), I'd be happy to let
> you try my Thai food! :)

I recall you saying you would be moving last time you posted. Did you find somewhere satisfactory to live?

[Catriona R]

On Sat, 14 Apr 2012 18:48:43 -0700 (PDT), Aquarian Monkey
<aquaria...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Who's still around?

I am, still in more lurker mode than talker mode but I'm reading.

[astri]

On Sun, 15 Apr 2012, Aquarian Monkey wrote:
> On Apr 15, 1:22 am, astri <as...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> who is kicking you around?
>

> Parents. Of kids with autism that is not at all like what either of
> my kids experience. Kids with identified comorbid medical
> conditions. Kids who are a great deal more impaired. Kids who, in
> my best estimation, really are *sick*.

are they jealous? do they not believe that your kids can be as well as
you claim?

> It started when one person said that the concept of neurodiversity is
> "nonsense." I basically told her that I could see where it might be
> *irrelevant* to her and her experience, but that that doesn't make it
> "nonsense." She responded by saying that it is *nonsense.* Then a
> group of others chimed in.
>
> They feel judged by those proponents of neurodiversity who believe
> that trying to treat or ameliorate the symptoms of autism in their
> children equals not loving or respecting their kids. The concept of
> neurodiversity passes no judgement. It simply says that autism is
> the result of natural human variation and that it is OK. Some
> *people* who believe in neurodiversity may pass judgement. But the
> philosophy does not.

do they feel guilty about their children? are they judging themselves
and thus prone to seeing judgment in disagreement?

> They are completely unable to see that what they think has been done
> to them, people in biomed to do other parents every day. I have been
> basically told that if I am going to just let my daughter sit there
> and rot and not do anything to help her, then I suck as a parent.

well, if you were letting your daughter sit and rot without doing
anything to help her, then you *would* suck as a parent. but you're not
doing that.

> That judgment does not come from the concept of biomed, which says
> that autism is the result of a physiological illness that can be
> treated or cured. That judgement comes from a judgmental person. I
> do not damn the entire concept because some of it's practitioners are
> closed- minded and assume that their experience dictates the
> experience of everyone else.
>
> So, there was a bit of an "argument" that got to the point where,
> seriously, I could not even understand what was being said because
> there was no logical train of thought.

they were threatened although you were not threatening. it wasn't
logical or rational.

> So, I guess I am leaving a group that I have been close with, and
> spoken to on nearly a daily basis for the past 4 years.

that's sad.

> Maybe it is the shadow aspie in me, but I cannot tolerate it. I
> cannot tolerate the attack on my beliefs and I cannot tolerate the
> discrepant behaviors attached to their view.

you don't have to tolerate it, of course.

> Frankly, if they expect me to respect their beliefs and their
> experience without questioning them or telling them it is all
> "nonsense," which I have--not just to keep the peace, but because I
> honestly do believe that what affects their children is not the same
> thing as mine and I am therefore in no position to pass any judgement
> on them at all--then I do not think it is too much to ask that they
> do the same in return.
>
> Apparently, they think the duplicitous behavior is completely
> acceptable. Not the whole group, of course, but a significant number
> of the most active participants.

they probably don't see it as duplicitous.

> They claim that there is tolerance and acceptance for autism. I don't
> know what planet they live on. Maybe for them. Maybe for the person
> who is so clearly disabled that everyone can see it. I don't know.

what are they thinking this tolerance and acceptance looks like?

> What I do know is that for my kids, they are unfairly judged every
> day. They are seen as either naughty, bratty, lazy, stupid, or the
> poor recipients of bad parenting because they are viewed as "not
> trying hard enough" to meet societies expectations regarding what is
> and is not acceptable behavior.

that sucks. people have no clue how hard they or you are working.

> There is a very clear expectation that my kids should somehow
> magically change who they are, how they are wired, so that they can
> behave in a NT fashion.. Actually, the expectation isn't that they
> magically do it. The underlying belief appears to be that they don't
> because of some kind of flaw.

right

it's the same for most (all?) minorities.

> My kids are not flawed. They are different. Their neurology will
> never truly hold them back from accomplishing what they want to do.

good

> It definitely makes certain things more challenging. But
> autism/ADHD/etc is not their biggest problem. What *is* going to
> hold them back is other people's unfair judgment and unattainable
> expectations.

that will certainly make the climb steeper for them.

> People who think that I can "therapy the wiring out of them" are
> going to hurt my kids. People who think that if they just try
> harder, they will be like everyone else are going to hurt my kids.

you're going to be working very hard to teach your kids how to deal
with these people so they come out of it less damaged.

> I feel irrational and angry right now. I am probably not even making
> any sense.

you're making perfect sense.

> At any rate, it is nice to see some of you are still around, though
> it looks like the evil little imps have been out and about quite a
> bit around here.

imps?

[astri]

On Sun, 15 Apr 2012, Bob Badour wrote:

> I think it will be sad if you completely separate yourself from your
> friends and supports. If you can, I suggest you try to keep in
> contact with the less vehement among them.

aw, gee, bob. you're aspie; you're not supposed to be showing empathy!
get with the program.

<tongue out of cheek>

[astri]

On Sun, 15 Apr 2012, Aquarian Monkey wrote:

> I am separating myself from the community, but not from individuals
> who would like to keep in contact.
>
> But you know, it leaves me in a lonely place because the normal every
> day things that I would have shared with them, I now have no one to
> share them with.
>
> For example, D was invited to another kid's house for the very first
> time ever and she went today. She did not want me to stay, but I
> felt nervous leaving her because since we are in a new school, no one
> "knows" and sometimes she still does things that could catch someone
> by surprise. So, I told the mom that she is "mildly autistic" so if
> she noticed anything unusual, she would know why. She immediately
> said that she had absolutely no problem with it, because her 9 y/o
> next door neighbor, whom she has known for his entire life, has some
> mix of ADHD and HFA and so she and her kids are "used to it" and
> "don't mind at all." In talking to her more, I think this boy and R
> could be friends. I discussed it with R and he wants to meet the
> other boy. And I would like to meet the mother. So it was an
> unexpectedly good part of an otherwise migraine-inducing day.
>
> That is something I would normally share there. And now "there" is no
> longer a place I feel safe sharing.
>
> Sucks.

you could share that stuff here. you used to do that.

[Autindividual]

Aquarian Monkey <aquaria...@gmail.com> wrote in news:05710b08-0e56-
496e-85a4-f...@f5g2000vbt.googlegroups.com:

> For my belief in the concept of neurodiversity.

Great term; "neurodiversity". I also like "neuroexceptional".

> Need to be among those
> who understand my feelings that my kids are not sick, do not need to
> be cured, are not defective, and need to be accepted the way they
> are.

We all need that...certainly we're entitled to it.

> Who's still around?

I've been around all the while - I was just waiting for something to
happen, even though that's not all that like me to do that, so I'll post
something new ;)

[Aquarian Monkey]

On Sunday, April 15, 2012 11:41:15 PM UTC-4, Phil W Lee wrote:

>
> It's interesting to dads, too :)

Phil, that is something I never knew about you...I never knew you were a dad.

Bob, they were not IRL friends. Actually, I don't really have any IRL friends that I interact with on a regular basis. This was an online group of parents that I met shortly after D was identified as autistic.

[Aquarian Monkey]

On Monday, April 16, 2012 2:47:10 AM UTC-4, Nick Cramer wrote:
>
> Interesting to some grandfathers, too!
>

Hi, Nick...I don't know if we've ever met (and forgive me if we have). I am a mom of a 6 year old girl with PDD-NOS/HFA/Mild Autism...something like that. I also have a son who is 10 and has ADHD and NVLD. I myself most definitely have ADHD (gosh, in denial of that for some time, but as I learned about it to help my son, I got smacked with about a billion "OH! So that's what's going on!"s. Some suspect I may be an aspie shadow. Some days I agree, others maybe not.

I came to this group very soon after D (my girl) was first diagnosed. A wonderful woman named Toto brought me here because she believed I could be helped. I was in a bit of a state of despair, but not for the "normal" reasons. I was upset because I was afraid I would never be able to understand my daughter and if I couldn't understand her, I wouldn't be able to help her and she would be alone. The wonderful folks here spent many, many threads calming my fears and helping me to learn.

You may find it interesting to know I was a hospital corpsman for 6 years.

[Aquarian Monkey]

Hi, Dolphinius! You know I always love to see you, my friend!

On Monday, April 16, 2012 2:27:11 PM UTC-4, dolph...@fsmail.net wrote:

<SNIP>

> Autism has a wide spectrum of outcomes for society, ranging from the very good (brilliant autistic scientist who makes a really beneficial discovery) to the pretty good (reliable worker who is self-sufficient, very honest and makes a contribution through paying taxes) to pretty bad (those who do criminal things) to the very bad (individuals who need a lot of support in life which is a drain on society's resources). I think people see the bad more than the good.
>
> Maybe some people think the very bad is not a price worth paying for the very good?

Sadly, I think it is more that they think the very good and the pretty good don't know what they are talking about when considering the very bad. They don't want to hear it. They feel angry and resentful to have someone else claim to know what their children may or may not need, want, or feel. I agree with them that they know their children better than everyone else. But I do not agree with them that they cannot learn even more about their kids by listening to someone who is more likely to share their wiring. Many of them also have kids who show signs of true illness and resent anyone implying that they should not be treated. And others have kids who have pretty severe behaviors that are quite disruptive. I think it is hard for them to conceive of their kids as part of something "normal" when their behavior is so disruptive.

Also, oddly enough, I think many of them fall prey to at least as much black-and-white thinking as I have ever seen in an autistic. They have a great deal of difficulty seeing how more than one view can be right, depending upon where you stand.

> But you are helping her! I think your attitudes (as you describe them in your posts) are spot on.

Thank you. While I do not think my attitude has brought her as far as she has come (I think it is neurological capability and her hard work), I do think she has benefited from not having unrealistic expectations placed on her all the time. Like I could care less if she is flapping, toe walking, and hopping as we walk down the street, and if she wants to sit and line her magnets and toys, I see no reason not to let her do it. I think a lot of parents flip out any time they see something that is not typical and they think there is some grand imperative to "fix" it. Immediately. At any cost. It is important to me to teach her how to function and to help her learn compensatory strategies for the deficits that will prevent her from reaching her full capability, but little stuff just doesn't bug me, so I think her environment has been more laid back than many other kids'.

>

> Maybe they need to understand that many people who are autistic can live independently and happily? If so then what is there that needs curing or treating?

They know that, but it doesn't apply to their kids, so they find rhetoric to allow themselves the mental gymnastics required to completely ignore that fact.

>
>
> Are they in mainstream school at the moment?

Yes. Both of them are now. D gets some social skills training and they are helping R with his deplorable organizational skills. But they are both mainstreamed without any kind of support.

>
> I recall you saying you would be moving last time you posted. Did you find somewhere satisfactory to live?

Yes. I found an awesome house. Much nicer than anywhere I have ever lived. It is a really nice neighborhood. I am paying an arm and two legs for it, but it is worth it to me. There is plenty of space for the kids to have room, the schools are good, we are close to many parks (R loves the outdoors). I am happy with my choice.
>

[Aquarian Monkey]

On Tuesday, April 17, 2012 6:45:09 AM UTC-4, Catriona R wrote:
>
> I am, still in more lurker mode than talker mode but I'm reading.

Nice to see you and thanks for coming out of lurker mode to let me know you are there! :)

[Aquarian Monkey]

On Tuesday, April 17, 2012 12:01:30 PM UTC-4, astri wrote:
>
> are they jealous? do they not believe that your kids can be as well as
> you claim?

I do not know. I don't know that jealous is necessarily the right word. Maybe more just sad that their kids are not doing as well? They have never indicated they don't believe me. As they have never met my kids (except for one), they really only have my word to go on and I do not think any of them see me as a liar.

>
> do they feel guilty about their children? are they judging themselves
> and thus prone to seeing judgment in disagreement?

I do not know for sure what happened, but I think maybe one of them ran across an autism self-advocate somewhere who may have told her she doesn't love or value her son as he is because she practices some biomed. She has never said that outright, but I can't imagine why else she would be so bitter and insistent that she has been judged. The issue is, her son sounds physically ill. I do not think anyone who understood that would blame her for trying various vitamins, supplements, and medications to alleviate his physical issues. Except I do think there are extremists on the other side who have a hard time conceiving that perhaps some autistics didn't come to the world that way, but rather are sick in some way and display autistic traits.

I think most parents of kids with any kind of disability feel some level of guilt, whether or not it is warranted. It is very hard to watch your kid try harder than everyone else, but still lag behind. Especially since there is no definitive proof of how it comes to be that someone is on the spectrum. It's easy, as a mother, to worry that you did something wrong to cause it.

>
> well, if you were letting your daughter sit and rot without doing
> anything to help her, then you *would* suck as a parent. but you're not
> doing that.

Some biomed people think that if you are not seeing a DAN! doctor you are not doing anything.

> they were threatened although you were not threatening. it wasn't
> logical or rational.

I don't even know for sure if they were threatened. A friend of my suggested that sometimes when someone can no longer keep up with a debate, they start lashing out with emotion-based attacks instead. It seems to be a possible explanation. Because when I told them I didn't understand what they were saying, they did not try to clarify, which is usually what someone does when they have a point they are trying to make.
>
<SNIP>

> >
> > Apparently, they think the duplicitous behavior is completely
> > acceptable. Not the whole group, of course, but a significant number
> > of the most active participants.
>
> they probably don't see it as duplicitous.

No, I am sure they don't.

> > They claim that there is tolerance and acceptance for autism. I don't
> > know what planet they live on. Maybe for them. Maybe for the person
> > who is so clearly disabled that everyone can see it. I don't know.
>
> what are they thinking this tolerance and acceptance looks like?

I don't know? Autism Awareness Day? LOL! The fact that they do not want their kids lining up toys or flapping their hands and that they actively try to stop these things tells me that there isn't any. Who cares about these little things? D does them both because she likes to do it. Why do I care if she likes to do something that I don't? But I know why they "care" and it is because they don't want their kid to stand out and get picked on. I get that, too, but the fact that they have to worry about their kid getting picked on for that is further evidence that there is no tolerance or acceptance.

But Bob's initial explanation was dead on and there is no point in trying to reason with people who do not even really understand what they propose to believe, let alone why they believe it. The more you question them, the more shrill their voices become and the more you demand some kind of explanation, the more they resort to tactics to put the focus somewhere else. These are not stupid women. At all. But this last incident has left me seriously shaking my head in disbelief.

<SNIP>

>
> you're making perfect sense.

Thanks.

> imps?

...you know, the little creatures that like to spoof people's email addresses or poke until people respond...

[Aquarian Monkey]

On Tuesday, April 17, 2012 12:04:59 PM UTC-4, astri wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Apr 2012, Bob Badour wrote:
>
> > I think it will be sad if you completely separate yourself from your
> > friends and supports. If you can, I suggest you try to keep in
> > contact with the less vehement among them.
>
> aw, gee, bob. you're aspie; you're not supposed to be showing empathy!
> get with the program.
>
> <tongue out of cheek>
>

LOL! When I read what he wrote, my first thought was "Dang...for someone who is not supposed to show empathy, who is supposed to have a hard time figuring the intentions of others, and who is supposed to be socially impaired, Bob has done a fine job!"

[Aquarian Monkey]

Yes, I suppose I did, did

Yes, I suppose I did, didn't I?

And I guess people can always just not read/respond if they are tired of hearing about it.

On that note, at 10 y/o, R finally learned how to tie his own shoes! :) Very proud day for both of us!

[Aquarian Monkey]

On Tuesday, April 17, 2012 6:01:40 PM UTC-4, Autindividual wrote:
>
> Great term; "neurodiversity". I also like "neuroexceptional".

Heh...using that term in some circles would be like poking an angry bear.

>

> I've been around all the while - I was just waiting for something to
> happen, even though that's not all that like me to do that, so I'll post
> something new ;)

That would be great! :)

[Louise]

Aquarian Monkey <Aquaria...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:22549083.739.1334711965552.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@ynid15:

> That would be great! :)

That was when I posted "Autism Rocks!"

[Bob Badour]

I was 8 when I learned. My mother was pissed off at my kindergarten
teacher because the only thing the teacher knew about me was I could not
tie my shoes, but when picking out shoes I always chose loafers so it
didn't matter a whit.

Luckily, there were 2 kindergarten classes in the same room, and the
other kindergarten teacher (not officially my teacher) was able to
answer the questions my mother cared about: did I share, was I getting
along with other kids, was I learning what was expected of me (other
than tying my shoes, of course.)

When I was 8, I picked out a pair of shoes with laces and learned to tie
them that same day. ::shrug::

If we had velcro back then, I might never have learned. ;)

[Nick Cramer]

Aquarian Monkey <Aquaria...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, April 16, 2012 2:47:10 AM UTC-4, Nick Cramer wrote:

> >=20

> > Interesting to some grandfathers, too!

> >=20

> Hi, Nick...I don't know if we've ever met (and forgive me if we have). I

> am=

> a mom of a 6 year old girl with PDD-NOS/HFA/Mild Autism...something like

> t= hat. I also have a son who is 10 and has ADHD and NVLD. I myself most
> defin= itely have ADHD (gosh, in denial of that for some time, but as I
> learned ab= out it to help my son, I got smacked with about a billion
> "OH! So that's wh= at's going on!"s. Some suspect I may be an aspie
> shadow. Some days I agree,=
> others maybe not.=20

Hi AM. I'm in North Hollywood for the past 50 years and pushing 77. It
would be a pretty safe guess that we've never met. If you're in the area,
e-mail me if you'd like to meet. My wife is Thai and one helluva cook! Plus
our daughter and her 3, 6, 8 & 10 year old kids live here with us. Their 10
year old cousin, Tea, is the autie who caused me to come to a.s.a. If you
were to come by, I'd try to arrange for him and his mom to be here as well.
He pretty much keeps to himself (WOW!)

> I came to this group very soon after D (my girl) was first diagnosed. A

> won= derful woman named Toto brought me here because she believed I could
> be hel= ped. I was in a bit of a state of despair, but not for the
> "normal" reasons= . I was upset because I was afraid I would never be
> able to understand my d= aughter and if I couldn't understand her, I
> wouldn't be able to help her an= d she would be alone. The wonderful
> folks here spent many, many threads cal= ming my fears and helping me to
> learn.

You sound like a good mom. I'm trying to help my grandson survive all the
HELP he's getting from the 'system'.

> You may find it interesting to know I was a hospital corpsman for 6
> years.

You Navy corpsmen saved a lot of lives and reduced a lot of suffering.
Thanks.

[Nick Cramer]

Aquarian Monkey <Aquaria...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 17, 2012 12:01:30 PM UTC-4, astri wrote:

> >=20

> > are they jealous? do they not believe that your kids can be as well as
> > you claim?
>
> I do not know. I don't know that jealous is necessarily the right word.

> May= be more just sad that their kids are not doing as well? They have
> never ind= icated they don't believe me. As they have never met my kids
> (except for on= e), they really only have my word to go on and I do not
> think any of them s= ee me as a liar.
>
> >=20

> > do they feel guilty about their children? are they judging themselves
> > and thus prone to seeing judgment in disagreement?
>
> I do not know for sure what happened, but I think maybe one of them ran

> acr= oss an autism self-advocate somewhere who may have told her she
> doesn't lov= e or value her son as he is because she practices some
> biomed. She has neve= r said that outright, but I can't imagine why else
> she would be so bitter a= nd insistent that she has been judged. The
> issue is, her son sounds physica= lly ill. I do not think anyone who
> understood that would blame her for tryi= ng various vitamins,
> supplements, and medications to alleviate his physical=

> issues. Except I do think there are extremists on the other side who

> have = a hard time conceiving that perhaps some autistics didn't come to
> the world=

> that way, but rather are sick in some way and display autistic

> traits.=20

>
> I think most parents of kids with any kind of disability feel some level

> of=

> guilt, whether or not it is warranted. It is very hard to watch your kid

> t= ry harder than everyone else, but still lag behind. Especially since
> there = is no definitive proof of how it comes to be that someone is on
> the spectru= m. It's easy, as a mother, to worry that you did something
> wrong to cause i= t.
>
> >=20

> > well, if you were letting your daughter sit and rot without doing
> > anything to help her, then you *would* suck as a parent. but you're not
> > doing that.
>
> Some biomed people think that if you are not seeing a DAN! doctor you are

> n= ot doing anything.=20

>
> > they were threatened although you were not threatening. it wasn't
> > logical or rational.
>
> I don't even know for sure if they were threatened. A friend of my

> suggeste= d that sometimes when someone can no longer keep up with a
> debate, they sta= rt lashing out with emotion-based attacks instead. It
> seems to be a possibl= e explanation. Because when I told them I didn't
> understand what they were = saying, they did not try to clarify, which is
> usually what someone does whe= n they have a point they are trying to
> make.
> >=20

> <SNIP>
> > >
> > > Apparently, they think the duplicitous behavior is completely
> > > acceptable. Not the whole group, of course, but a significant number
> > > of the most active participants.

> >=20

> > they probably don't see it as duplicitous.
>

> No, I am sure they don't.=20

>
> > > They claim that there is tolerance and acceptance for autism. I don't
> > > know what planet they live on. Maybe for them. Maybe for the person
> > > who is so clearly disabled that everyone can see it. I don't know.

> >=20

> > what are they thinking this tolerance and acceptance looks like?
>
> I don't know? Autism Awareness Day? LOL! The fact that they do not want

> the= ir kids lining up toys or flapping their hands and that they
> actively try t= o stop these things tells me that there isn't any. Who
> cares about these li= ttle things? D does them both because she likes to
> do it. Why do I care if = she likes to do something that I don't? But I
> know why they "care" and it i= s because they don't want their kid to
> stand out and get picked on. I get t= hat, too, but the fact that they
> have to worry about their kid getting pick= ed on for that is further
> evidence that there is no tolerance or acceptance= .=20

>
> But Bob's initial explanation was dead on and there is no point in trying

> t= o reason with people who do not even really understand what they
> propose to=

> believe, let alone why they believe it. The more you question them, the

> mo= re shrill their voices become and the more you demand some kind of
> explanat= ion, the more they resort to tactics to put the focus somewhere
> else. These=

> are not stupid women. At all. But this last incident has left me

> seriously= shaking my head in disbelief.
>
> <SNIP>
> >=20

> > you're making perfect sense.
>

> Thanks.=20

>
> > imps?
>
> ...you know, the little creatures that like to spoof people's email

> address= es or poke until people respond...

Regarding tolerance: One who goes by the nic of PhoenixWench on
alt.callahans, includes this in her sig-line:

Toleration is not the opposite of intolerance but the counterfeit of it.
Both are despotisms: the one assumes to itself the right of withholding
liberty of conscience, the other of granting it.
-- Thomas Paine, The Rights of Man

[Nick Cramer]

Aquarian Monkey <Aquaria...@gmail.com> wrote:
> [ . . . . ]

> On that note, at 10 y/o, R finally learned how to tie his own shoes! :)
> Very proud day for both of us!

I hope he was taught to tie square-knots, rather than granny-knots!

[Catriona R]

On Tue, 17 Apr 2012 18:17:40 -0700 (PDT), Aquarian Monkey
<Aquaria...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On that note, at 10 y/o, R finally learned how to tie his own shoes! :) Very proud day for both of us!

Congrats to him! :-) I honestly can't remember how old I was when I
leaned but I do remember having a lot of trouble with it, it's not at
all easy for those of us with not-so-great coordination. I also
remember having a heck of a hard time learning how to tie my school
tie when I was 11, thank goodness the primary school I went to for a
short while didn't have ties in their uniform; it was only for high
school!

[Catriona R]

Hehe, wish I could think of more to say but oh well! *waves* :-)

[dolph...@fsmail.net]

On Wednesday, April 18, 2012 2:23:53 PM UTC+1, Phil W Lee wrote:

> x4 :)
> 2 on spectrum, 2 not.

Are there any differences in your interactions with the ones on the spectrum and ones not? For example, do you manage to communicate better with either?

[dolph...@fsmail.net]

On Thursday, April 19, 2012 11:17:49 AM UTC+1, Catriona R wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Apr 2012 17:56:02 -0700 (PDT), Aquarian Monkey

> wrote:
>
> >On Tuesday, April 17, 2012 6:45:09 AM UTC-4, Catriona R wrote:
> >>
> >> I am, still in more lurker mode than talker mode but I'm reading.
> >
> >Nice to see you and thanks for coming out of lurker mode to let me know you are there! :)
>
> Hehe, wish I could think of more to say but oh well! *waves* :-)

I think it is great you are still here. It is nice to read posts from you (even if just very short ones like the above) because you were here when I joined the group.

[dolph...@fsmail.net]

On Friday, April 20, 2012 10:32:34 PM UTC+1, Phil W Lee wrote:
> Dolphinius considered Fri, 20 Apr 2012 13:10:42 -0700 (PDT)

> the perfect time to write:
>
> >On Wednesday, April 18, 2012 2:23:53 PM UTC+1, Phil W Lee wrote:
> >
> >> x4 :)
> >> 2 on spectrum, 2 not.
> >
> >Are there any differences in your interactions with the ones on the spectrum and ones not? For example, do you manage to communicate better with either?
> >
>

> Challenges for all (nobody can tell me that there's no such thing as
> the generation gap!), but the challenges are different between the AS
> and non-AS ones. That could be as much down to the fact that they are
> different ages though, as it's the eldest 2 who are AS, and the
> younger two who are NT.
> The frustrating thing is that the older two refuse to allow me to give
> them the benefit of my experience from when I was growing up. I can
> see them making many of the same mistakes, but they insist it's
> different these days, then fall into exactly the same traps :(

I was quite stubborn (I still am in some ways). I think some mistakes can't be taught, only experienced.